Invitational 10: 2005-2006. Game over! before 624

[MrBuddyLee]

I think what I'd like to see right now from everyone is the following:

* Who are your top three suspects in order, and why?
* If DGB is not in that top three, why?
* If elvis is not in that top three, why?
* Is there anyone who's skating to D2, and how can we get more info on them ASAP?

Mine may change, but off the top of my head:

top 3: elvis, ogml/huck, dgb, pablito/pj
elvis just feels WRONG. i was scum with her in one of my first games and I think she got lynched first. i need to read and see if she comes across ringingly town in games she's town. her top suspect and possibly only real suspect is me, town. not promising.
huck said a few things that rubbed me wrong, ogml just barely poked around but didn't really drive a scumhunting agenda, dgb almost more seems scummy due to elvis's actions towards her moreso than anythng dgb's done, and pablito seems to be somewhat indifferent to the finding of the perfect scum candidate. pj was very very un-pj, but i think i'll write that off as he sounded truly mafia-indifferent in general.

* elias is skating badly. i want more specifics from bird, bluesoul, and even chamber though i get good vibes off him (what if he dies tonight? need his opinions on record)

[ChannelDelibird]

Picking up my prod, sorry about that. I'll have some healthy content for you tomorrow.

[Patrick]

Elvis is my top suspect. After that I think it's DGB, pablito, HackerHuck and elias. That's the ordering that comes to mind offhand, I'd need to reread to be sure of it. Maybe switch pablito and HackerHuck there, since HackerHuck hasn't really convinced me with his response to my questioning. I'd like to see pablito playing slightly less casually at this point though.

* Is there anyone who's skating to D2, and how can we get more info on them ASAP?

elias seems the most consistent skater throughout the game. CDB owes us a post, Ether still feels like she could be doing more.

[DrippingGoofball]

* Who are your top three suspects in order, and why?

I have FOUR.
Elvis (for reasons I've explained at lenght), PJ (for reasons I've explained but another player made a much better case that I support), Elias for scummy slacking. Also bluesoul, also for reasons I've explained, but it seems no one feels the same way I do about him, so maybe it's just me.

* If DGB is not in that top three, why?

She's awesome.

* If elvis is not in that top three, why?

She is.

* Is there anyone who's skating to D2, and how can we get more info on them ASAP?

MBL has already named them all.

[MrBuddyLee]

Huck looks a little better upon isolated reread--he actually looks to be reasoning things out. But:

1) Huck, what about my play have you found "extremely scummy" this game?

2) What specifically have you found protown about chamber?

3) What has Ether contributed to the finding of scum/what makes you confident she's not scum pretending to be helpful?

4) How has pablito been "better than PJ"? What are your fave pabs insights thus far?

5) Can you qualify your bluesoul vibes?

6) DGB vs. elvis--town v. town, two scum distancing, or town v. scum genuine antagonists? Evidence?

[MrBuddyLee]

Get lost.

Just lynch me.

And here's my goodbye kiss to you.

unvote, vote: MrBuddyLee

- here's your scum on a silver platter. Maybe I don't want YOU to win after all, scumbag. DIE SCUM DIE.

What was this all about? Why did you feel so strongly I was scum at the time? You seem fairly convinced at present that I'm town.

[pablito]

unvote

I mainly wanted to see how bird or DGB might react.

answers: DGB, Ether, chamber and if I'd pick a fourth, it'd be bird at the moment. DGB has this whole thing where she feels more comfortable when others let up on her and she attacks harder, but she has a defense style that really isn't so much defense, but just deflection. I looked over LO1 before and I remember that when she was really on the defense, she tried hard and I felt she defended her self and mainly that was it. She didn't really deflect or let others do much. Plus she kinda went over all the place with more whims. She's pretty directive right now. Ether, I don't feel good about because of stuff I said earlier pretty much. I hope to see more from her later too. Chamber is a new one, I've pretty much let him off. But basically I feel better vibes from pretty much everyone else. But I have a tingling sense when he is most literate. The whole last stuff lately hasn't pinged much. But I do not feel many genuine pro-town vibes from those posts, at least from what ir emember. bird hasn't really made me sway differently away from Sarc's poor play.

elvis sure isn't playing well, but I'm giving her a benefit of a doubt right now. Mostly about some posts later than earlier. The early posts sucked ass. I get a huge sense of frustration from a lot of the posts. I could go in more depth if I can be arsed to actually reread anything. With classes starting (and 20 credits), I'm not in the mood.

Skating? Clearly Elias, Ether and I'd say bird as well. Elias is gone. Ether I want more info from and bird's long post I had to skip because the numbers thing was annoying and hard to read. And bird's other posts didn't really convince me to think in any certain way.

[pablito]

Adding - For me, I had general doubts about DGB because of her earlier behavior, but it wasn't until looking over LO1 last time that I started to really think more about her. Also, in LO1, both she and I were town but we kinda attacked each other. I remembered that it was one of my first games with her and was worth a read.

Also, thank you MBL and Patrick for looking at me as well and not just PJ.

[DrippingGoofball]

Get lost.

Just lynch me.

And here's my goodbye kiss to you.

unvote, vote: MrBuddyLee

- here's your scum on a silver platter. Maybe I don't want YOU to win after all, scumbag. DIE SCUM DIE.

What was this all about? Why did you feel so strongly I was scum at the time? You seem fairly convinced at present that I'm town.

Mega OMGUS

[Ether]

Elvis's will to live without a claim looked good to me up until she started lurking and then moved onto MBL over DGB--I don't like or understand that. Meh. DGB's play doesn't remind me of her play in Normal 70 or PYP3 (mafia in both), though I guess the meta on her can't possibly be that easy. I'm still uncomfortable with the way she softclaimed and then used the Elviswagon to toss that aside. I really just wish someone would die already (skate to Day 2, yeah).

It looks to me like you used DBG's actions (IE her trying to get herself lynched) and were trying to use them to convince the town to look elsewhere or at least make people reluctant to hammer.

What's wrong with my 34?

I didn't see how you could plausibly interpret bluesoul's post as saying that"

[...]

What are you looking for me to elaborate on?

[...]

What didn't you like about them?

Oh. Well that's fair.

How did you interpret Bluesoul's post?

Why did you reference "the only thing scummy [you] really see from him" of Bluesoul and then put him second highest on your List?

I don't get your stance on Bluesoul; I don't like your reference to my 34. I don't like the posts you use to vote DGB, though at the same time it doesn't really make sense as something sinister because you disregarded some of the points that you actually

could

use as an easy excuse. But those feel nitpicky. In contrast, your stream of consciousness above that yells at MBL a few times but your summary never does really cover him. Why?

* Ether isn't moving the game forward but wants to appear involved

It should be fairly obvious that I am not even faking that.

I'm aware of your questions and would love to be thinking that much.

[MrBuddyLee]

Name:

Final Fantasy VII Mafia

Flavour:

In the aftermath of a giant airship crash, the characters of Final Fantasy VII find themselves in smoke filled clearing. As everyone comes to grips with their surroundings, chaos ensues as each side attempts to destroy all opposition.

Players:

26

Experience:

http://www.mafiascum.net/wiki/index.php?title=Mini_488
http://www.mafiascum.net/wiki/index.php?title=Mafia_74

Co-Mod:

Dead Rikimaru

*ahem*

(jack shit)

[Elias_the_thief]

*shrug*

This game is uninteresting to me and I lack the motivation to get caught up. I dont think this should have any reflection on my alignment. I'm sorry that I underestimated the task of staying caught up while missing weeks at a time. That being said, school is about to start but I will be making an increased effort in this coming week. My first task will be trying to decide on someone to vote as I have yet to do so throughout this entire game. So I'll be looking at the two main candidates, first through DGBs case against Elvis (i ignored a good deal of the connection speculation). I hope that this will give you guys at least some sort of read on me going into day two, and that it will motivate me to get back in the game.

Elvis:

Ether picks up on elvis' stiffling discussion by dismissing's MBL 'first content in the game.' Elvis immediately agreed that the criticism was correct.

Very, very early in the game, in post #41 to be exact, elvis imediately puts bluesoul on the defensive by asking if he thinks MBL is scum. It feels like a trap, because being this early, there's not much that bluesoul can answer that couldn't be misinterpreted as scummy. I note that he made a wishy washy answer and ducked successfully.

This isnt really very condemning in my opinion.

Again prematurely, there's this very scummy post:

Patrick... MBL thinks you had ulterior motives to starting bandwagon on him. You have never addressed these concerns. Explain.

It's scummy because she's using MBL's argument/attack to herself attack Patrick while looking like she's supporting MBL, without having to make the argument herself, and being protected against a counter-attack from Patrick because heck, it's MBL's argument, not hers. This small little sentence is manipulative on a great many levels. It smacks of scum. Now let's see who pickedk it up and who let it slide.

Patrick didn't put up with it and voted elvis in the next post. Elvis responded in what I believe to be an indignant tone: "And that makes you want to vote me?" So here I have to consider the possibility of distancing. Interestingly, Patrick's take on elvis's post is a bit like mine: "Not in itself, you just seem to be on the sidelines a fair bit." Indeed, I agree.

This isnt particularly convincing either. Its possible that she posted that with your manipulative intentions in mind, but its just as likely that she saw something unaddressed and decided to bring it to the forefront in order to start up conversation.

Elvis' next move consists in voting for me for "buttering up three people in a single post" - a quote by PJ. So once again, elvis shields herself from attack, counter-attack and criticism by hiding behind another player's action.

I dont think that agreeing with a point is necessarily shielding yourself. The way you word this is pretty negative, and you sound very final in your conclusion. I find that more scummy then the post in question.

Once again, Patrick call out elvis, pointing out that she's not commenting on players' alignment (though I will add that she herself demanded it of others), and that she hangs on to details that are not relevant, and she recognizes are not relevant.

Well I cant really agree with the first point unless I'm calling myself scummy, so I will say that it is not necessarily a scumtell, though worth noting that she hadnt been taking any sides.

Finally in this post she relents and answers some of Patrick's questions. I can't put my finger on why, but the whole post reeks of post hoc. However she puts a lot of effort trying to ward off Patrick's attacks. This diminished the probability of bus'ing, in my book.

Also, she rails a lot against MBL, who I cautiously put on my town list in the game. I have to think about that. She wrote: "Patrick, now that you have forced me to pay more attention to this game I am realizing how much I don't like MBL." Then she unvotes me, and votes MBL. Hmmmmm...

bluesoul ignores the elvis issue, alons with Sarcastro, OGML and PJ previously, I'm adding him to the list. MBL FOS's elvis. I have to confess that I would have felt more comfortable if he'd voted elvis outright.

Ok. Nothing too amazing here.

Elvis responds to Ether's challenged with an other sneaky couter-attack in post 114 where she asks: "why do you still have a problem with the question I asked Patrick?" which is kinda worded like "when did you stop beating your wife?"

how so?

elvis's 153 is pure unadulterated squirming. Look at this wishy-washy, say-nothing sentence: "He had a point about me not being involved enough, so, yes, he could be scum, but not necessarily." Yep. Everyone could be scum, but not necessarily. What a way to plump up a post without saying a thing. She's answering to MBL, and this time she's serious with it, she doesn't seem to hid behind other players the way she started the game.

153 has one bad sentence. What relevance does the last part have other than reinforce the notion that she hadnt been "hiding" to begin with, and had simply agreed with one post, and wanted to resurface the other?

Later Patrick asks elvis what she thinks of PJ. She answers sitting on the fence. Recall that PJ studiously ignored elvis at every corner: "I don't have a problem with him. I haven't played with him in a long time, so there I'm not really going on meta at all. I just haven't read any of his posts and thought it was BS, or thought he was trying to be manipulative."

Eh...fence sitting is fairly scummy but I dont really see the connection as very convincing.

In this post, elvis is protecting PJ, while denying Patrick's accusation that they are connected. Meanwhile, PJ continues to either ignore elvis or give elvis a free pass like he's done all game.

I dont really see any "protection" going on here, only denial of the accusation. Not very scummy.

Elvis, who's willing to hammer a supposed supersaint, chickens out and votes Patrick, her dogged attacker. Later, she accuses MBL of derailing my bandwagon, something she just did herself! All the while crying to be the hammer. Hmmm.

Good point here.

So as I see it: Elvis has been noncommittal and hasnt scumhunted very much. Thats basically the same as me. DGB's case is far from convincing, and seems to be mostly speculation about connections (which really arent that useful when theyre made about at least 5 different players). I will further my old evaluation of DGB later this week. I'm sorry MBL, cant touch your questions yet.

[bluesoul]

*shrug*

This game is uninteresting to me and I lack the motivation to get caught up. I dont think this should have any reflection on my alignment. I'm sorry that I underestimated the task of staying caught up while missing weeks at a time.

...

I hope that this will give you guys at least some sort of read on me going into day two, and that it will motivate me to get back in the game.

The onus is not on us to make you play the damn game. Get your head into it or ask to be replaced, don't make us wait another day because you don't feel like playing right now.

Unvote, vote Elias

[Elias_the_thief]

What do you think I'm attempting to do? I'm not going to cancel plans made in RL to post in this game but I did say I'm making an increased effort. I'll post again tomorrow.

[bluesoul]

I'm not sure what you're attempting to do, that was your fifth post of any real content in the almost two months the (day and) game has been going. By my rough math that's about a post with anything remotely usable every week to ten days. You say you have no motivation to get caught up so I can't even ask you a relevant question to force a read. Do you

really

expect your one-to-two-sentence PBPA over one player to give anyone a read on you?

Nobody else has had to cancel events to be moderately active; I work two jobs and go to school and I believe I'm still probably the player with the highest in-game post count here.

Hopefully this is the start of your activity here. For the love of gentle Jesus get caught up and place a vote.

[Elias_the_thief]

No Bluesoul, I dont expect that one post to give anyone a read. Thats why I said quite clearly that I was going to look at both wagons, look at cases, and place a vote. I also noted that I was sorry for my mistakes and would make an increased effort in the coming week. I'm sure you're very angry about me being gone the whole time, but the fact of the matter is I'm here now. By continuing to make a big deal about my late arrival, you're detracting from the game. Is it cool if I like try to play now or should I leave again? Just wondering what you really want. Heres my analysis of DGB.

Early Game:

throughout the entire early part of the game she seems to throw in these little bits of dry humor as if to disguise and inflate poor posts. 239 DGB expresses a high level of agreement with MBL's case on Patrick and ends it by questioning his lack of vote, while she doesnt vote either. 263 is scummy as hell as she asks for votes but finds no one scummy. very noncommittal. Not to mention that then 278 is a very poor softclaim that just comes off as weak and scummy. 290 attacks PJ's method of info gathering, which is a silly attack, because asking questions is the basis of PJ's play. she also appeals to emotion at the bottom. PJ basically ignores this entire conversation however, and posts a wall-o-text addressing basically everyone but DGB.

More recent stuff:

291 through 393 is just post after post of a disgraceful defeatist attitude. Then in 394 she mysteriously turns it around, as if kicked in the shins. I believe this turnaround is motivated by the realization that she may perhaps not be the day one lynch. This is something that would motivate scum a lot more than town IMO. If she were town, you'd think she would have been posting those PBP's a lot sooner. This is one of the main reasons I find her scummy.

Analysis posts:

395 mainly analizes possible connections to me and IH, which is fairly useless on Day One. Though this provides more solid opinions from her to help us get a read, it doesnt change my opinion of her at all. 399 and 401 are covered in my previous post. The case is unimpressive. 410 (analizing sarc) is a decent post, but it is never elaborated on, as DGB allows her game (from directly after all her analysis is complete) to be dominated by attacks on Elvis. 414 seems to paint OGML in a lurkerish light, though she claims it makes him scummy. I dunno, I just dont see it. Analysis about bluesoul in 418 is lacking. 427 for chamber is much the same.

Summary:

Early posts are very scummy. The small bits of humor seem to be placed in posts mainly to distract from issues at hand and inflate posts. As the game progressed DGB made some very scummy posts, softclaimed power role, and eventually went into complete defeatist mode. After the realization that lynch was not impending, she posted some analysis, but this was by no means good enough to detract from the scumminess of her earlier posts.

So I've compared the two scummier players out there, according to the town. Rest assured I will post analysis for other players, but I wanted to get these two out of the way first. To me its fairly clear that DGB is the scummier of the two and I'm fairly comfortable with my first vote of the game being

vote: DGB

.

[pablito]

unvote, vote: Elias

There's lots of language in there that is overly defensive and just so so wrong. I wanna put even more pressure on Elias. "According to the town" - is much much different than saying "the two scummy players that everyone is analyzing" or "the two scummy players that people asked me to analyze". Elias almost sounds like he's saying that people are forcing him to pick one of the two, and then actually chooses. If Elias was truly genuine behind his vote he'd say "the two scummier players out there as how I said before".

[Elias_the_thief]

There's lots of language in there that is overly defensive and just so so wrong.

I'd love examples. As a sidenote, defensiveness is key part of my playstyle.

I wanna put even more pressure on Elias. "According to the town" - is much much different than saying "the two scummy players that everyone is analyzing" or "the two scummy players that people asked me to analyze".

I don't see why. I quite frequently use the phrase "according to the town" to describe things that all players seem to agree on, simply because its easier to type out than the second. If anything the second choice sounds as if I'm carefully choosing my words to appear as town as possible. This is something I dont do.

Elias almost sounds like he's saying that people are forcing him to pick one of the two, and then actually chooses. If Elias was truly genuine behind his vote he'd say "the two scummier players out there as how I said before".

The reason I address these two first is because they are currently the two most relevant wagons and by addressing them I get myself into the game faster as I can talk about the most important issues. Further, wording has very little to do with how genuine I am with my votes. As I said, I'm not very careful with my words.

[chamber]

I dislike how he went and did a reread of dbg to analyze her, but just used dgbs analysis(which I think was Bologna anyway) to look into Elvis. That other post on dgb was also clearly done in an attacking mind set not and inquisitive one. Over all its clear he decided who he was voting before doing either post and was just supporting it in thread, which I don't particularly like.

[Elias_the_thief]

I dislike how he went and did a reread of dbg to analyze her, but just used dgbs analysis(which I think was Bologna anyway) to look into Elvis. That other post on dgb was also clearly done in an attacking mind set not and inquisitive one. Over all its clear he decided who he was voting before doing either post and was just supporting it in thread, which I don't particularly like.

If you recall, I had already found DGB the scummiest from the few previous posts I had. You might also remember that I expressed this in post 513 when I questioned the collapse of the wagon on her. So yes, I had to some extent made up my mind before those posts, but I'd never provided solid reasoning as to why. Thats what I did. As for the choice to use DGB's analysis, it was geared by MBL's questions of (essentially) "are DGB and elvis in your top 3, if not why not". I was looking at whether elvis was there, and why not. By defeating what appeared to be the most organized case against her, I figured I was doing a decent job of explaining why not. I can see why you find this scummy, but I dont mind too much. I'm far from done with getting caught up and my mind could change as I examine other players.

[chamber]

SO you admit that post was a defense of elvis? If you aren't caught up why are you readily willing to attack and defend others?

[Elias_the_thief]

I guess you could call it a defense, though it wasnt intended as one. I was just evaluating the case on her, and I didnt find it very convincing.

[Elias_the_thief]

Also

basically caught up, analysis post will come in a day or two as I try to refine reads.

I failed at posting the reads when I meant to, but its not like I'm completely clueless of whats happened thus far. My reads just arent where they should be, basically.

[chamber]

I guess you could call it a defense, though it wasnt intended as one. I was just evaluating the case on her, and I didnt find it very convincing.

The problem here being that evaluating a case made on someone is different from evaluating that person.

[Elias_the_thief]

I guess you could call it a defense, though it wasnt intended as one. I was just evaluating the case on her, and I didnt find it very convincing.

The problem here being that evaluating a case made on someone is different from evaluating that person.

True enough. If you'd like me to evaluate Elvis independantly, I'd be glad to do so.