Monty Python's Mafia Circus Game Over

[farside22]

unvote muerrto

since strappado says spyrex didn't visit muerrto. Makes my idea much less plausable.

I'm thinking I should claim first, now, and the rest of you might not have to go through with a mass claim because I think my role and information that I have will shed some light on the situation, and possibly change some of your ideas.

Should I go ahead?

If you think it helps then claim.
Do you think a massclaim will help?

[elvis_knits]

I will claim but first I want to see if anyone will admit to roleblocking me for the last 2 nights.

[farside22]

Looks like I am going to miss all the fun for the next 3 days. I look forward to some people's post. Muertto, the internet and Azmith all need to be really looked at . Seriously.

[elvis_knits]

Actually that's probably a bad idea since it might out someone who hasn't claimed. I'll claim tomorrow when I have time to write everything up.

[Muerrto]

Vote: Against massclaim

Big time. Biiiiig time.

[PokerFace]

And give reasons why they think it is a bad idea.

Is it because you now suspect the cult is a red herring or is there more to it then that? If there is a way to prove it all fake, then claiming wouldn't be necessary but if it a 4 man cult is out there do you have a better idea to catch the cult recruiter?

[Muerrto]

I can't claim. I can't elaborate.

And this late in the game we'd be seeing more collaboration if there was a cult. With 2 taunters I'd say we have a good chance of the cult thing being a red herring. The mod is having a blast messing with us.

Also, who targetted me I ask again.

[farside22]

All I want is Sir Lancelot to claim. If you are not scum Lancelot I want an explananation from you about your role.

[PokerFace]

I did not target Muerto or Elvis the last 2 nights. I did not roleblock Elvis.

Unless you get instant mod killed for just your role name you should be able to claim. I never seen a threat of modkillery for just a name.

I may have to take sometime to watch the holy grail over the weekend to brush up on my Lancelot knowledge. He was the only one to target muerto besides Strappado and the bridge keeper.

Can you elaborate on why you think the action he performed on you muerto was a scum action?

Enjoy your V/la farside. See you after the holiday weekend.

[Muerrto]

No. And it's not mod killery.

At the risk of this counting as my punishment it's vanillery and yes I've seen that penalty for roles alot.

And if I become vanilla for that I hate you.

And you should KNOW I'm not vanilla now since I asked who targetted me besides the bridge keeper.

[farside22]

No. And it's not mod killery.

At the risk of this counting as my punishment it's vanillery and yes I've seen that penalty for roles alot.

And if I become vanilla for that I hate you.

And you should KNOW I'm not vanilla now since I asked who targetted me besides the bridge keeper.

You seem to think the cult recruiter is a red herring. You know that makes you look like the cult recruiter right?

[PokerFace]

Considering he used simular words describing that view when SpyreX had the view, that would be funny.

I have heard of that penalty before and I have only seen it attached to a few roles. Didn't think we'd have anything like that here. Should the mass claim go through we can just count you as one of the unconfirmed possible cult recruiters or we can abondan the claiming idea all together should enough vote against the entire idea. I don't think you are the scumiest player off hand so I am unlikly to vote you simply because you can't claim.

Asside from your suspicion Cult is red herring and what went on with your role and whatever you really are, Have you got any other concerns against the mass claiming?

[Lord Gurgi]

Albatross!

Haven't decided on MC. Almost always against it outside lylo.

Albatross!

[strappado]

I've never been in a game where we mass-claimed. Isn't that kinda like cheating and taking all the fun and mystery out of it?

The mod saw your voting thingy though and responded and he didn't say anything about being opposed to it... and I dont have any thing to hide now since my role is already out there....and hearing everyone's roles would be interesting, seems like there's some good ones out there.
Also - we're not finding out exactly what the roles did when we lynch or are NK'd, so we wont know if an investigative role gets killed and we wont know to look back to see if they suspected or cleared anyone...etc etc.

I dont see any reason not to mass claim, atleast on this side of the fence.

vote: massclaim

[Azimuth]

I'm not a fan of mass claiming. It would give lots of information to the anti-town forces, and so far the exposed roles haven't really illuminated the game for the town. Sure, we got DBE, but I think it was mainly because we mistakenly believed that there couldn't be two French Taunters. Those roles were not indicative of alignment, so I'm not sure that any role would obviously lead to cult leader. For example, I certainly would not have deduced that "Bruce," an Australian philosophy professor, could be a cop. So, I'm voting

Against massclaim

for now.

Regarding elvis_knits, only she can decide whether her claim might help the town, but if she has truly been blocked the past two nights I don't know how much information she can share. I will say that I have not been involved with her the past 2 nights, nor with Muerrto last night.

Lord Gurgi, my refutations were more than you described, but whatever; I know you can't elaborate.

PokerFace: mafia can have actions in addition to killing. I've played a mafia role on this site where I could both investigate someone and kill someone else each night. So, the legitimacy of killa seven's action does not clear him alignment-wise. In fact, that's true for everyone, not just K7.

I think imaginality raises an interesting point: is it better to go after a cult member than mafia today? I'm trying to figure the math. Let's say we currently have 4 cult out of 11 players. If we successfully lynch mafia, then the cult might increase to 5 overnight. If there are no mafia left and no one is killed, that's 5/10 who are cult, but if there is another mafia and that person kills someone, that could make it 5/9 and the game would be over. On the other hand, if we successfully lynch a cult member, then a nightkill and successful recruit would make it 4/9. That sounds better, but if we repeat it then it's 4/7 the day after and the game is over again. Goodness, is there any way to avoid a cult victory (if one exists)?

While my head is spinning about cults, what does it matter whether cult members know who the recruiter is? If they know everyone in the cult, then a potentially un-recruited cult member could still have "spilled the beans" and at least narrowed the search down. I guess that (along with the paragraph above) is why I hope the whole cult thing is a red herring, though I can't logically discount the possibility. Oich, who knew Monty Python could be this stressful?

[PokerFace]

Ok I'm going to simplify things best i can.

If a 4 person cult exists (1 recruiter with 3 recruits)

And we lynch a townie or a mafioso

then its 4 cult and 6 other going into night
If cult successfully recruits someone and is not nightkilled then we have 5 cult 4 scum or town. Game over cult wins it cult gets nked its 3 to 6 which will make things back ok where we started in terms of proportions 4 to 7 >> 3 to 6

OR...

If we lynch a cult recruit

its 3 cult and 7 town or scum going into night
if cult successfully recruits its 4 to 6
if cult is then nked its 3 to 6.
which will make things back ok where we started in terms of proportions
4 to 7 >> 3 to 6
And if townie is nked its 4 to 5. That be sucking bad!

BUT...

If we lynch a cult recruiter

its 3 recruits and 7 other going into night.
Cult can no longer sucessfully recruit
nk hits cult then its 2 to 7 otherwise its 3 to 6 but they can't recruit again ever.

Lynching the recruiter today would be our best chance of effectivly avoiding lylo should a cult exist. if we don't lynch a recruit or the recruiter the cult will win if they aren't nightkilled. So

@Gurgi...

This is Lylo!

We have to decide if they are a red herring or not today because if they are around, not lynching cult with or without mass claim is potentially game over.

@Azimuth,

you are correct that mafioso's can have extra actions. Darla was a role attractor and scum after all.

BUT cultrecruiters always have only 2 possible actions recruit or kill. Cult recruiters can't role block or any confirmable crap like that anywhere in my cult experience and I have never read a game where a cult could do more than recruit or kill. This plan will not out the mafia or recruits. It is designed to get the main cult guy only.

If the recruits can't talk with and don't know the identity of their recruiter, then an un-recruiter would not potentially break the entire setup. It is possible cult can know its members and leader all around but i don't think its likly. If recruits and leader can talk and know each others real names then any preset or picked claim order could be bent to their advantage. This is why I suggest a completly random order determined by dice be used.

From my view point I can confirm 5 people as having actions that can't belong to cult recruiters.
1) Strappado
2) Whoever is The machine that goes Bing
3) Whoever is The Bridgekeeper
4) Whoever is The other role that hit me night 1
5) K7
6) If you guys want to count me you can here. I don't like saying it myself since i can't clear myself only those I target can confirm me as not lying about what i can do.

11 people alive total. We can verify 5+ that aren't recruiter.

These 5 people including myself can still be mafia or recruits

, but they can not be the recruiter based on their true character actions being known. Cult recruiters can't watch, track, go bing (or whatever), bridge keep, or do the other thing that hit me night 1. Cult recruiters can only kill or recruit. Since the six above don't kill or recruit then they aren't the recruiter. They can still be scum or recruit but recruiter is not possible.

@Strappado,

nope this is not cheating. Scum usually have safe claims to stop this sort of thing and avoid it from destroying the entire group. Chenshi had a safe claim of the Black Knight or he just got lucky guessing something no one counterclaimed. The action Chenshi claimed was kill protection. That skill is 100% percent unconfirmable. So if chenshi was alive he would be suspect for potential cult recruiter.

@Azimuth again,

This claim procedure is not designed to find a role that fits a character who we think could be a recruiter. The character description don't determine who is cult automatically. A good guy can have a bad guy role and a bad character can have a good guy role. I have seen things flopped like that before. I would not have pegged Bruce as the Cop either, so we will not be lynching a guy because his character makes sence as a cult recruiter. We will be narrowing down those with un-confirmable actions and overall scummy play and lynching them since they are scummy and have potential for being the recruiter.

The cons of the massclaim

is if there is no cult (they are a red herring) I would estimate a scum group of at least 2 maybe 3 remaining based on usual 18 player game balance. It is common knowledge that a too early massclaim can give the scum group a road map of which role is best to night kill when. This is our main con and we would also be telling mafia what we all do so that they could know how to exploit things there too. Massclaims are always high risk high reward based on how the town plays things.

If we lynch the recruiter today we will be back in business away from lylo. And ironically if scum use what knowledge they gained to kill a cultist then things will be more against the cult. If cult exists and they ain't killed or lynched. We are all fucked!

If someone has a better idea to find the cult then massclaiming they are more than welcome to come forward with it. If Elvis has some role that will reveal a better way, it is solely up to her if she wants to claim now and give this other idea.

Massclaim is just the best idea i can think of at the moment and if a better one with far less risk can be thought up then we should use that idea.

I believe I've put out all facts in terms of what we can gain and loose with and without a massclaim. I feel it will increase our potential for lynching cult.

If anyone feels I missed some big obv con then speak now. We need to decide today...

1) If cult exists
2) What is best way to find recruiter.
3) is Massclaim best and only way

--------------------------------------------------------------------

Massclaim(3): PokerFace, Farside, Strappado

No Massclaim(2): Muerto, Azimuth

???(2): Gurgi, Elvis

Not voting (Everybody else)

--------------------------------------------------------------------

[PokerFace]

Elaborating further...

@Strappado,

nope this is not cheating. Scum usually have safe claims to stop this sort of thing and avoid it from destroying the entire group. Chenshi had a safe claim of the Black Knight or he just got lucky guessing something no one counterclaimed. The action Chenshi claimed was kill protection. That skill is 100% percent unconfirmable. So if chenshi was alive he would be suspect for potential cult recruiter.

If cult recruiter has a safe claim which is in esence a fake claim no one has, he will unlikly be able to give a confirmable actions with said role that would work in line with recruiting procedures since the safe/fake claim would not be real. Safe/fake claim would have fake and non real action that would be unconfirmable. A mafia role blocker would have a confirmable real action but a cult recruit really wouldn't unless they could make a good lie and have his recruits vouch for him. This would out his rcruits if any of them fugged up the claim. And I think the best way not to give recruits that know their recruiter the chance to vouch for their recruiter would be 100% random claiming order.

[Lord Gurgi]

Albatross!

I'll go along with it if the town thinks so.

Albatross!

[imaginality]

If Elvis decides not to reveal her information yet, then I am for a mass claim.

If Elvis does reveal her information I think we should see what that leads to and vote again after that:

I'm thinking I should claim first, now, and the rest of you might not have to go through with a mass claim because I think my role and information that I have will shed some light on the situation, and possibly change some of your ideas.

My main concern with a mass claim is the chance that shaft.ed is just playing with us with the cult unrecruiter role and that there might not be a cult at all. However, the fact strappado saw Sir Lancelot visit Muerrto and was warned that an overzealous knight makes me think that Sir L, whoever that is, could well be a cult recruiter.

So,

Vote: for mass claim

unless elvis's information changes the picture significantly.

[The Internet]

vote: for massclaim

If we have a 4 man cult going around, then it's to dangerous. If not, then we might at least be able to nab a few scum. In the event of a massclaim, may I claim first, PF?

[elvis_knits]

I am going to claim. It's perhaps stupid for me to do so. I'm still not really sure I should, but I think it's the best chance for the town to win, and I am hoping I can win with them.

Please read this whole post before judging me.

I am Sir Lancelot. I can win with any group (scum, town, cult if we have one). So in that sense I am sort of a survivor role. BUT. And this is a big but (lol), my win condition is that I kill all members of the wedding party. Which makes me sort of SKish, TBH.

So I gather that farside is a member of the wedding party and that I have to kill her to win. I'm not sure there actually are any other members of the wedding party. For a while I thought there were NO members of the wedding party, and it was all a red herring, since nobody had died from the wedding party or been lynched or claimed (and we've had quite a few claims already). Also, since PF doesn't seem to have a tobaccoonist. And possibly because there may be no cult.

Personally, I think that there would have been some cult death by now if we have a cult. Another point about a cult, if it exists, it may not be that strong. In most cult games, there are quite a few roles that can't be culted or can prevent cultification, which hampers the cult quite a bit. So I doubt they would be at a maximum right now. I think it would be more likely for them to succeed culting about 50% of the time.

Before I realized that farside is a person I have to kill, I thought my win condition was a red herring. And that I had already won if no members of the wedding party existed. So I was trying to help the town by targetting people I thought were scummy. I was trying to act as vig. For the fun of it.

ANYWAY... My night actions -- I killed luigi gangsta N1... I thought he was scummy. I was voting him D1, and farside even was suspicious about me putting the kill through. She was right. I killed him.
I tried to kill Chenhsi N2, but that didn't work since I was targetted by Spyrex. I tried to kill Muerrto last night, and obviously that didn't work.

SOOOO... I think I was roleblocked N2 in addition to Spyrex targetting me, since Spyrex didn't die. I *think* he should have died otherwise (maybe PF can confirm this as he seems to grasp the role well).

I also think I was roleblocked last night since Muerrto didn't die. Unless the fact that Strappado says she saw me actually visit Muerrto means I was not blocked (anyone know how the results would change for strappado if I was blocked or not? Would se see me at all if I was blocked?). If I was not blocked last night, that means Muerrto is NK immune. I guess that could be a few different things. The ones I have thought of are bulletproof town of some sort, or GF with NK immunity, or cult recruiter with NK immunity.

I guess what I propose to the town is that you leave me alive and use me as vig. I will do my best to continue to act as vig, and take suggestions/direction from the town. I promise I won't try to kill farside until a later time that we agree upon. It would be fairly easy for you to hold me to this promise as you can just lynch me at any time.

Farside would have to agree to this too, which she may not. lol. But I think she can still win with the town even if dead, so I'm hoping she will agree. If her win condition is that she successfully hides from me or something, and my plan violates her win condition, then I have severely miscalculated and am screwed. I may go down in history as the stupidest person to play mafia no matter what happens here...

But I think the town should at least consider using me as vig since we may have a cult. You may need me.

And now, let the arguing begin!

[PokerFace]

hmm... It would appear you are a Hunter Variant Role then.
An extremely rare role I only see once before.

Regular Hunter Roles are lynchers that also have the power to vig. If their "prey" is killed by them or lynched their win condition is fufilled.

@Elvis,

if your prey (Farside supposedly) dies and then later you die, do you still win overall despite whether town, cult, or mafia wins at the end?

ANYWAY... My night actions -- I killed luigi gangsta N1... I thought he was scummy. I was voting him D1, and farside even was suspicious about me putting the kill through. She was right. I killed him.
I tried to kill Chenhsi N2, but that didn't work since I was targetted by Spyrex. I tried to kill Muerrto last night, and obviously that didn't work.

SOOOO... I think I was roleblocked N2 in addition to Spyrex targetting me, since Spyrex didn't die. I *think* he should have died otherwise (maybe PF can confirm this as he seems to grasp the role well).

I also think I was roleblocked last night since Muerrto didn't die. Unless the fact that Strappado says she saw me actually visit Muerrto means I was not blocked (anyone know how the results would change for strappado if I was blocked or not? Would se see me at all if I was blocked?). If I was not blocked last night, that means Muerrto is NK immune. I guess that could be a few different things. The ones I have thought of are bulletproof town of some sort, or GF with NK immunity, or cult recruiter with NK immunity.

Its always a mod preference as to wether a watcher/tracker sees someone who is blocked. In my book of modding the tracker/watcher does see them. In Battle Mages book of modding, according to late ruling he gave Kison (a watcher in elemental Mafia) They would not see someone who was blocked.

This issue is truly up to the mod, and I have doubts on him being able to tell us or not. Strappado would have to ask Shaft.ed if she can see people that were blocked. If Shaft.ed can't tell her (Which is possible) then I hesitate on playing "outguess the mod" and relying on that alone.

Please answer the question I have left above for you Elvis. I'll think more on this matter later.

@The internet,

For the time being i will postpone judgement on you claiming first. I still think random order is best and hence would be spectical of those who claim out of order or try to "slopily" vouch for others. When I slept on the game last night, I considered the possibility Elvis was cult and could be trying to organize claims by claiming pre-massclaim. Not sure what to think about her exactly now. I may change my mind later on you going first with the massclaim but for now I still think random is best idea.

[Lord Gurgi]

Albatross!

Ug, I hate town directing power roles. Let's pause MC.

Albatross!

[elvis_knits]

hmm... It would appear you are a Hunter Variant Role then.
An extremely rare role I only see once before.

Regular Hunter Roles are lynchers that also have the power to vig. If their "prey" is killed by them or lynched their win condition is fufilled.

My win condition is actually that I NK the wedding party. Lynching will not work.

There is nothing in my role pm calling me a hunter or anything like that. Only my role name and how I work.

@Elvis,

if your prey (Farside supposedly) dies and then later you die, do you still win overall despite whether town, cult, or mafia wins at the end?

Yes. My only win condition is that I NK the wedding party. Whoever wins overall will not prevent me from winning. And my death will not prevent me from winning. So I guess when I said I am like a survivor before I misspoke. I don't have to survive to win. But I can win with any group. I asked the mod about that.

You may be worried that I am going to screw you and kill farside and then say "I've won, I don't have to do what you say." But since farside says she's "hard to find," I assume she's a hider and can evade me. So I really can't kill her and screw you. She has to agree to this whole plan. And I can't easily back out of the deal with you.

[PokerFace]

Yes I suppose pausing it for now would be best. I suppose people could vote for or against it still but definatly no one else should claim for now. I myself may have to change my vote when this entire thing is sorted out.

@Elvis,

question 2 (two parts to this question)
If Farside never dies can you still win?
If so can said win be only with the town or can it be with anyone who wins it all in general?