Mini 635: WOMAFIA - Forbiddanlight + Vagina-Haters win!

[forbiddanlight]

I meant nonny anyway. =P

suuuuure

Vote Count:
ThAdmiral - 4 (Incognito, forbiddanlight, Lord Gurgi, Farie Lord)
Farside - 1 - (Falcone)
Lord Gurgi - 1 (Farside22)

With 10 Alive, 6 to lynch!

[farside22]

I have to be quick on this and I'm not done yet. Sorry some RL issues came up and tomorrow I am going to be out all day. Here is something I have so far.

First ThAdmiral:

And all I can remember you saying yesterday is that you thought farside was scummy. No case, just that.
If you had posted what you did today then that would have been different, but you didn't.

Even after it was explained. Admiral backpeddled and stated that Falcone didn't push hard enough. I disagree. Even I have gotten fustrated when I feel people aren't listening and I will point out others I feel are just as scummy. After all most games have more then one scum it it

As far as I can tell the only case you're pushing on me is that I don't throw votes around day one.

This is also false. Incog pointed out that you hadn't scum hunted or really pointed to anyone. When it was pointed out you stated that you were suspcious of DBE. (more on this in a minute.)


Forbidden stated:

To be honest, I'm fine with either myself. But just...you can't let what ThAdmiral just did go by. That was ridiculously scummy.

What about your suspicions on FL did that just drop out of no where. Why only push on myself and ThAdmiral if you feel FL is scummy too?

ThAdmiral states:

Furthermore it seems incognito is suggesting that every single post that one makes in a mafia game must either attack someone or defend them, and if it doesn't do either it is scummy!

Talk about crap. That wasn't what I read at all in Incog's post. He stated you hadn't done scum hunting. Which means the equivalant of just posting to post with nothing really said.

Wait a second - didn't you say you were suspicious of me when I wasn't scumhunting? And now you're suspicious when I am?

I read the quote and that wasn't really scum hunting that was well I think DBE is scum and Falcone is a wishy-washy comment.

Incognito states that it is suspicious that I list darla without having mentioned her before. 2 things: I have to mention her first somewhere, and do you think it might be possible that I was thinking things about certain people that I didn't immediately write down in the game?

Yes because we are mind readers don't you know. We should guess that this out of the blue suspicion on DBE has nothing at all to do with the BW on her.

[forbiddanlight]

What about your suspicions on FL did that just drop out of no where. Why only push on myself and ThAdmiral if you feel FL is scummy too?

Ummmm...when did I EVER suspect FL? I've only suspected you, DBE, and ThAdmiral really :S...

[nonny]

I am working on a catch uip post, but school just started today so i'll get it done today or tomorrow. Sorry for slacking.

[Incognito]

What about your suspicions on FL did that just drop out of no where. Why only push on myself and ThAdmiral if you feel FL is scummy too?

Ummmm...when did I EVER suspect FL? I've only suspected you, DBE, and ThAdmiral really :S...

Pinkies of suspicion are deadly.

[forbiddanlight]

What about your suspicions on FL did that just drop out of no where. Why only push on myself and ThAdmiral if you feel FL is scummy too?

Ummmm...when did I EVER suspect FL? I've only suspected you, DBE, and ThAdmiral really :S...

Pinkies of suspicion are deadly.

Oh yeah, I did do that. Well, it doesn't really matter now. We have some pretty big suspects. I might relook at it pending flips.

[ThAdmiral]

Alright this is getting ridiculous. I could readdress all the points brought up by people but that would just lead to even larger post pyramids. Anyway, I fear forbiddanlight is a lost cause now, and incognito... well I understand that if he changes targets it will probably look more suspicious than staying where he is.


I think more importantly than anything else about the case is that when you actually consider what has been said you realize two things:

1. The main argument that I was wishy-wishy/didn't vote/didn't take a stance (aside from the fact that it isn't true) is a problematic argument.

Firstly it is an assumption. All arguments based on assumptions will ultimately end up as big piles of he said-she said, "yes you did"-"no I didn't" mess. Incognito says I was maliciously setting myself up to have multiple targets depending on where the wind blew, I say (know) that I wasn't.
Secondly it is simply a weak reason to be suspicious of someone. It is an attack of a play style if nothing else. Even though incognito didn't literally say that one needs to be scumhunting at all times (this is to farside) he

is

suggesting that there is only one right way to play the game.

2. There is no actual evidence to back it up.

Even though incognito is convinced I had been wishy-washy so that I could then prey on whichever target was under the spotlight, this has never actually happened. As far as I can tell I chose one main target yesterday and a few other minor ones (all the lurkers and falcone to a small degree) and stuck with it.
And while Incognito said there hasn't been much opportunity to do this as most of the people haven't come under the spotlight, this too is incorrect. Firstly even if this were true it doesn't prove or disprove anything, meaning it is a null tell. Secondly some of those people

have

come under the spotlight! In particular farside, who, instead of attacking when she became a viable target, I actually DEFENDED!

The worst thing about the whole situation is the absolute hypocrisy involved. If anyone is giving themselves multiple options depending on which way the wind blows it is Incognito himself! In fact he proudly states: "I have absolutely no problem with the farside22-wagon and that I would have no problem joining it if the majority decided that she should be the lynch".

@ Incognito: Weighing it all up I have to ask: why do you think that I would need to set up these wishy-washy options for myself in the first place? Do you feel that I would be incapable of attacking someone if I hadn't vaguely mentioned them before? Furthermore if I did want to set up multiple options for myself, wouldn't a more effective way to achieve that be to actually attack multiple people, rather than not?


All in all the case is bollocks. I hope some of the people who haven't weighed in on it yet actually have a brain.

[Lord Gurgi]

So. Brief summary, ThAdmiral tries to defend himself by making Incognito bad rather than defending against the points, excluding one instance which was weak. Incognito gets owned by ForbiddanLight.

I'm going to go get a noose.

Incognito: All the best women are lesbians.

[nonny]

That's not true: look at rosie o'donnel.

Still looking things over, as i said i'm suddenly busy. Will get full post tonight or tomorrow still.

Also note: don't like how LG is just ageeing with everyone and seemingly joking around. Hasn't posted any meat for himself only agreed so far from what i see.

[Lord Gurgi]

I can't match these huge posts, not at my current busy level. But the first sentence was fully serious. The problem with his defense it is about 60% deflection, 20% straw man, 15% actual defense, and 5% total garbage.

To all those not currently voting ThAdmiral: Why?

[FaerieLord]

I wonder if any of you actually read incognito's post or just saw that it was long and assumed it was correct.

Yeah, we have fetishes for long posts. Sorry about that

Did I ever actually do either of those things?

No, because you did nothing

Furthermore it seems incognito is suggesting that every single post that one makes in a mafia game must either attack someone or defend them, and if it doesn't do either it is scummy!

Show me where he said this

but everything I don't do is scummy as well.

Pretty much. (PS: Stop overreacting)

Wait a second - didn't you say you were suspicious of me when I wasn't scumhunting? And now you're suspicious when I am?

And you're saying we're not reading the posts?

and do you think it might be possible that I was thinking things about certain people that I didn't immediately write down in the game?

Should we care about what you think outside the game?

as well as others that you actually included earlier on in your own post in which I express my suspicion of darla.

Bottom line is you never said why

I don't really know what incognito is trying to do here. Perhaps she doesn't either, and just decided to question yet another innocuous post to flesh her case out a little bit more.

Saying you have suspicions != having suspicions

I wonder what would happen if the farside wagon took off again...

Really? Me too!

Pre post edit: Ok, forbiddan light owned me to the ripping, but I'm still going to post my version

[ThAdmiral]

@ lord gurgi: you know what, you're right.

Not about everything but about the deflection thing. I was doing a bit of that and I regret it. Mainly because (and it frustrates me a lot to say this) I think incognito is probably town. He replaced spacecase, who claimed mason and was backed up by falcone, and it would be basically suicidal for scum to claim mason especially when there was really no need.

I still think he's an idiot.

It's funny because the three people that I disagree with most are the ones I feel are most likely town. Maybe you are all right and I shouldn't be trusting the claims, but sadly I do.

I know what you are going to say - here I am being wishy-washy again. Whatever.

[Vivian Darkblaam]

Back...reading. Getting up to speed might take a while.

[Incognito]

@ Incognito: Weighing it all up I have to ask: why do you think that I would need to set up these wishy-washy options for myself in the first place? Do you feel that I would be incapable of attacking someone if I hadn't vaguely mentioned them before?

I don't know. This is the first game I've ever encountered you so technically I'd have no way of knowing what you're capable and incapable of doing. I'll have to make it a point either tomorrow or the day after to have a look at some of your previous games to see what your play is like as town and as scum. All I'm saying is is that your current pattern of play seems more consistent with the play of someone who I'd expect to be pro-scum as opposed to pro-town. That's my main argument.

Furthermore if I did want to set up multiple options for myself, wouldn't a more effective way to achieve that be to actually attack multiple people, rather than not?

No, and I've demonstrated why. If you are scum, you basically leave the door ajar to allow yourself room to wiggle away if the popular opinion begins to sway away from believing a person is scum. Effectively you keep your hands clean and actually never really dirty them at the same time. A win-win situation for scum.

ThAdmiral, I still would like to get to know who you think is scum. You've mentioned that you disagree with the people whom you think are town but you have in no way mentioned who you're suspicious of. Please get on that.

Mod:

I don't wanna be a pain but is there any way you can include a "Not Voting" section in your vote counts? I have to keep referencing the first page to figure out who's in this game.

Oh and cool. I just realized we have more time until deadline than I thought. Good news. =)

[Incognito]

Incognito: All the best women are lesbians.

Hm. Was Denise Richards a lesbian?

[Lord Gurgi]

@ Incognito: Weighing it all up I have to ask: why do you think that I would need to set up these wishy-washy options for myself in the first place? Do you feel that I would be incapable of attacking someone if I hadn't vaguely mentioned them before?

I don't know. This is the first game I've ever encountered you so technically I'd have no way of knowing what you're capable and incapable of doing. I'll have to make it a point either tomorrow or the day after to have a look at some of your previous games to see what your play is like as town and as scum. All I'm saying is is that your current pattern of play seems more consistent with the play of someone who I'd expect to be pro-scum as opposed to pro-town. That's my main argument.

This seems an awful lot like bringing in meta for a guy that hates meta.

[Incognito]

Who hates meta?

[nonny]

Okay didn't have as much time as I thought for a big re-read with my car breaking. So I will breifly summerize that while I agree with the wagon on thadmiral(i posted some stuff against him last game day) I am more concerned about how quickly the wagon picked up momentum.

Will explain futher if needed.

[ThAdmiral]

All I'm saying is is that your current pattern of play seems more consistent with the play of someone who I'd expect to be pro-scum as opposed to pro-town. That's my main argument.

I'd say at worst it is the type of play expected of someone who is just trying to survive by playing it safe. Is that scummy? Yes if they're scum, no if they're town.

Note I don't think I am just trying to stay alive, I'm just saying that this style of play could at worst be interpreted as that.

If you are scum, you basically leave the door ajar to allow yourself room to wiggle away if the popular opinion begins to sway away from believing a person is scum. Effectively you keep your hands clean and actually never really dirty them at the same time. A win-win situation for scum.

I really think this argument loses out on two points: a) I've never been seen to sway based on popular opinion in this game, and have often gone against it, and b) I just don't think that scum would feel the need to do this. They could always just lurk if they wanted to remain out of the spotlight.

ThAdmiral, I still would like to get to know who you think is scum. You've mentioned that you disagree with the people whom you think are town but you have in no way mentioned who you're suspicious of. Please get on that.

You're right. And to be honest (and I think this is due to both the scum playing very well and me not playing very well) I don't really have any strong suspicions. Recently I've been too caught up in defending myself to really look at others.

However if pressured to name names:
Faerielord - for the sniping comments at me and vote when public opinion had turned against me. Seemed opportunistic.
Nonny - not saying much, but pops in to say that she agrees with the wagon on me (and thought that I was scummy yesterday as well).

The strongest actual case is the one of farside and I don't agree with it.

[Lord Gurgi]

Who hates meta?

ThAdmiral. I quoted yours because the response was part of the point I was trying to make.

[ThAdmiral]

I don't hate meta, I just think it is overrated as a way to determine whether someone is scum or not, and I don't like to use it.

[Falcone]

Checking in from my holiday, not a lot of time to post.

I certainly don't have time to properly analyze all the ridiculously lengthy posts in the last couple of pages, but after reading them over, I would be happy to vote for ThAdmiral, also because he doesn't seem to have responded to the question I asked him in my previous post (about his vote for Darla on Day 1).

So, ThAdmiral, please do that, and while you're at it, claim please, since you're virtually at Lynch -1.

[Vivian Darkblaam]

Still reading. Question: Vivian, who's alt (if any) are you?

Charles II, last king of Zembla (You don't really expect me to come out with it directly after all the hints I've dropped, do you?)

This is as far as I've gotten in the thread btw (so I apologize if anything I say is outdated). Falcone's case on Farside is fairly solid but also fairly old. There doesn't seem to be anything from the end of D1 (though there's almost certainly material to work with) Why the sojurn to DBE before turning back to Farside today?

On the other hand, if Farside is scum, Admiral's ridiculously blatant defense of her should be underlined in red ink.

More later.

[Incognito]

Still reading. Question: Vivian, who's alt (if any) are you?

Charles II, last king of Zembla (You don't really expect me to come out with it directly after all the hints I've dropped, do you?) .

NabakovNabakov, I presume?

[ThAdmiral]

@ falcone: that "question" looks like rhetoric to me. But I'll answer it anyway: yes. Of course I do. I voted early and kept my vote on and was definitely one of the main pushers of the darla lynch, which turned out to be incorrect.

And I'll claim when I want, role-nazi.