Mini 660 - Star Trek: DS9 Mafia (Ruined = Over)

[frelaras]

As for being a fan, I wasn't gonna play any new games for a while, but I couldn't say no to my favourite Trek franchise.

QFT!

Also,

vote: Pie

, because pie is delicious!

[frelaras]

Whats up with Zone's gibberish?

It's Klingon. Between that and the previous post about honour, it's possibly a post restriction or possibly just a fluff-based way of participating.

[frelaras]

unvote
Vote: Timeater

You deserve to die.

I'm done with random Pie... time to move on to the one running up a random bandwagon.

unvote
Vote: Jebus

[frelaras]

Sorry for the lack of posts. I've been moving house, and even now I'm 'borrowing' someone else's internet so I can check on my games. Hopefully my connection will be in soon. Anyways...

Wow, Jebus is not responding very well to this wagon at all. I really can't see moving my vote at all.

And while discussing some sort of claim may be useful, I'd really not like it to derail things 'today'. As was already brought up, the potential (quite likely) presence of changelings makes claims a little dubious anyways. Too dubious to derail a behavioural wagon IMO.

[frelaras]

And what is that win-condition claim you talked about?

In games where the town WC isn't publically available, we can sometimes catch scum based on them messing up the wording when guessing a town WC. Since many people feel that's poor play, mods will just post the town WC, making claiming it pointless since everyone could just copy and paste the town one. So, as has been pointed out, the idea is dead and gone.

[frelaras]

Well well, Vic Fontaine, eh? On the one hand, it's an obscure character that might be seen as a safe scum claim, especially combined with a power role of sorts. On the other hand, putting in just such a character is something a mod might do to make us all wary of flavour-lynching. There's a lot of gaming the mod potential here...

Then again, if we ignore flavour and go with behavior, Jebus still looks like the best candidate for today. Unless we count those whose posts consist entirely of upper case. *.*

[frelaras]

Yeah, I agree Liam. I trust Jebus can go on to prove his worth to the town, presuming this isn't an elaborate false-claim.

@Tim, I don't think someone actually claimed Martok, he was just mentioned. A thread search doesn't reveal anything more. Who claimed Martok?

[frelaras]

Well, I was voting for Jebus based on his behaviour. Now his claim seems satisfying enough (but IGMEOY). Zoneace has popped up again for his anti-town play.

Vote: Zoneace

Being bored enough to start softclaiming from almost your first post doesn't seem very helpful. OTOH, you're going to get to claim for real very soon.

[frelaras]

*EDWOP* I didn't see his attempted day-vig before posting. I'll wait and see what the outcome is before changing my vote. If this is a gambit and it fails, we know who the first one up against the wall will be...

[frelaras]

Now you're starting to sound desperate as well as hostile. Hoping your scum power isn't too obviously not a day-vig?

[frelaras]

Meh, where I come from the onus is on the person claiming a power role. You gotta see these things through. Also I'm assuming you guys have never seen any convincing gambits if you don't think some shenanigans were possible. We're fighting changelings after all! The mod's scene seems very convincing and much more likely than a scum scribe or some such craziness.

unvote

[frelaras]

I currently like Time's case against Liam.

QFT. When viewed in context, Liam is throwing around a lot of suspicion, especially to devalue minor character claims (eg the Rom line). In fact we've just lost a townie based on what many saw as a inadequate character claim (the behaviour didn't help either). The massclaim comment didn't help much either. Liam mentioned being busy, but pressuring him seems more useful than the recently prodded td.

vote: Liam

[frelaras]

Any character could be aligned with the scum as far as I can see. Scum hunt on play, not on characters.

Hmm, interesting advice coming from your position. And then you bother to claim Quark. But I thought character hunting was pointless? So we shouldn't be satisfied with your claim right, because Quark could easily be scum on his own, never mind impersonated?

(Yes yes, it lets us do a basic check for bad claims I realize that, but that's not the point Liam was making).

[frelaras]

Hey M4yhem.

I guess we're discussing the utility of character claims in this setup. I was mostly reacting to Liam claiming they're basically pointless given the presence of shapeshifters but then giving his own character claim. It seems like he won't take them as evidence, but he's happy to give one?

Regarding Quark... I could see him being set up as pro-dominion for a game based on some flavour about being duped for latinum or something. There's a bunch of episodes where his greed caused bad stuff to happen. But enough speculation about that.

What do people think about the character claim? Do you all think character claims are good defenses in this setting or not? Should we lynch Liam based on actions like he insisted we should?

[frelaras]

Again, I must point out that you were not playing the game at the time. Maybe you can look at the date stamps and determine that YOU would not have been restless, but we really can't ever know that, since you were not playing. As it is you can pass judgement on my play and paint it to look like I was following, which is not the case at all. In MY estimation conversation HAD stalled. So I moved my vote to my second suspect. how scummy is that? your right, maybe I should have just re-posted my time case.

Yeah, I definitely think this is a good point. Bandwagons serve a very useful purpose, especially in the early game to get reactions and responses. When someone looks scummy, I don't think you need to invent new targets just to avoid the label of "following." I think that will show up over time as a tell in itself, which is useful in itself. But getting on a bandwagon day 1 to get some action going is hardly awful in itself.

[frelaras]

frelaras

– top of my current scum list
Post 4: possible coaching
Post 5: false dilemma
Post 8 and 9: still going after zone until zone’s day-vig was confirmed. Does not seem necessary. Why continue to attack rather just wait to see if the day-vig is confirmed?
Post 10: defends actions by saying it could have been a gambit… still seems scummy to have continued attack against zone rather than just waiting a small amount of time to see if the mod confirmed actions.
Post 12: Seems to be going after Liam regardless of Quark claim… I understand fre was just trying to make a point, but why pressure a player if you believe their claim?
Post 13: major appeal to town (which i find scummy)
Post 14: agrees with me against Mayhem regarding my votes… actually feels like buddying.

(snip)

I think there is a frelaras/mayhem scum team based on the coaching and distancing seen in fre’s posts 4 and 14.

Alright... First, a bit of a request. You're citing my posts by the number I've made. This is completely not helpful for actually tracking down references. Please cite the actual post number so I can search it up if you're not going to do actual links.

Now, on to your "case." At the moment, a major part of it appears to be the post where I answered the question about the win-condition claim. Coaching is helping a scum buddy out of a tough spot by feeding them answers, not letting them avoid wasting time on an irrelevant win-condition claim. You're staking a lot on answering a simple question.

As far as the Martok reveal... well, seeing as how we've spent half the game discussing how shapeshifters could be faking various things from roles to actions, I'm not sure why I have to defend continuing the pressure until the mod revealed it. I kind of wanted to see if any one or two people _would_ jump in and try to quicklynch. Seemed like it might give up a stupid scum if they tried that.

As for Liam, well, I still don't like his logic about character claims much, which is why I pressed it as far as I did. His consecutive posts said, don't pay attention to claims, then made one. It seems kind of bizarre and somewhat scummy to not accept claims as evidence but expect yours to do much good. I felt like pressuring him because his logic didn't seem very pro-town, regardless of what his alignment is. Besides, those Ferengi are shifty types!

I still can't get over the fact that a big part of your case is telling someone that a win condition claim was pointless.

For now,

unvote

. I'll come back later and review who I should be voting.

[frelaras]

Hmm, ok. I've only used search from the top to get post numbers. I'll keep that in mind for future PBPA (although I'll still prefer real numbers).

[frelaras]

I'd like to see an example of where he actually expected his claim “to do much good.”

What's the point of saying it in the first place, if you don't expect people to act on it? In fact, in spite of the earlier behavior that led to Liam getting voted on in the first place, we've all dropped it now based on the fact (and I can dig up the 2-3 posts that say this if you don't believe it) that his Quark claim is good. And I hardly see Liam in here arguing against it. Natural enough, but it seems like he's benefiting from a character claim when he claims they're useless. Do you see why I find this position unhelpful? At some point in the future, he's going to be around to go after someone irregardless of their claim largely because his character claim saved him early on. It's a double standard and I don't like it.

Is it a scummy double standard? It could be. If the day comes when Liam presses for the lynch of an obvious Starfleet cast member, it will be really convenient that he can claim that claims are worthless. But I don't expect anything less of a Ferengi.

I've been thinking about sekinj's case on me. It seems like she's been pretty erratic. First she had a case on Timeater, then she moved to Jebus "because it was the only play anyone was willing to make." Then she jumped to Zoneace, then to Liam. And now I'm her latest suspect, largely for answering a replacement's question. It seems like her votes have been those of convenience, following the town around. I wanted to avoid the obvious omgus vote, but after considering her voting pattern, I'm getting convinced she's scum.

vote: sekinj

Two other things after reading through the thread... Ozymandius, look on this thread and despair, man! This is a small game and you say it's going "over your head." That's either a really convenient way to stay under the radar because you're scum or you need to play more newbie games. But you've been here long enough. IDK.... You're not helping the town as is.

And that goes for Zoneace too. If you are a "confirmed townie" as someone else stated, you need to use that position to be pre-town and hunt scum, not drop out of sight until you get to kill someone again.

[frelaras]

I'm voting for sekinj because of her erratic voting pattern, which seems to skip around, following the town around for convenience reasons. Her weak case on me seemed like it was built around answering a question and again seemed like she was trying to find lame reasons for going after a townie.

I really think it's in the best interests of the town to not waste momentum on a wagon. What's the point, if we don't end up with a claim or some kind of information from the suspect? A wagon doesn't mean you necessary think they should die, just that they're scummy enough to warrant being a suspect, and pulling back and diverting the town's energy seems pretty anti-town.

Basically I'm on the same page as Liam on this point. How novel.

That being said, Light-kun was calling me weird and that's beginning to seem a lot like the pot and the kettle. He could be a hyper-energetic, misguided townie or floundering scum at this point, I can't tell. I don't understand his reasons for lying about having a suspect, it's seems pretty trivial. Lynch all liars is a pretty good policy, but I'd consider a policy lynch second at this point.

[frelaras]

Time to come up with excuses for your fishing expedition, you mean?

vote: Timeater

[frelaras]

Lets assume for a moment Elim Garak is present in this game

Ahhhh... Here's what seems like an interesting gambit. Play town cop and spread guilt around, eh? Let me guess, if they turn up town, you'll claim to be crazy or misguided? That could certainly fit with Garak.

[frelaras]

If we kill the scum I reveal to you, then even if I kill someone tonight, then the scum can't win. I can't win. Town victory is pretty much assured.

And if we kill a Tim... then... both scum and mafia win I think.... If that is possible, I dunno. But, scum, town, and cult would be tied.... Unless scum decided to kill me... yeah, if we killed Tim, and since I am the only cult, then the scum would win.

If we kill any townie, then scum wins. Hmm..

Wow. I missed a lot while I was gone. Anyways... this seems ridiculous. So you're claiming you're willing to follow a path of action that leads to town victory and makes you lose the game. Why? What's the point? That seems so irrational, you must have another agenda.

Obviously, you're going to name some names and try get people lynched. Why should we believe you more than anyone else? Anyone can claim to know anything, you know?

Listening to you (who has already been caught in one lie already) seems like the worst plan ever. At this point you'd say anything to try live another night and claim another member.

vote: Light-kun

[frelaras]

FOS: Farside

for that random FOS and framing lylo in the way he did.

I think we need to proceed cautiously -- obviously -- and I point that out since the last two "days" have gone by ultra quickly.

Claiming makes sense at this point. We really need as much info as possible to sort out what to do next. I really want farside to start, or at least I hope he gets picked quickly, since he's looking quite suspicious today. Agreed on method of choosing. Let's do it.

[frelaras]

I am Miles O'Brien, and my technological knowledge of the station gives me protection against dominion attacks (aka night kills). However, given that's it's old cardassian junk it's not reliable on subsequent nights.

(Glad I checked in from work on my break, that went quickly)

[frelaras]

Liam: When it came to the Jake Siskso claim, you were really dubious of the vanilla nature of it. What do you think about the 2 people claiming vanilla this time? I'll put aside the whole 'what are claims worth issue' since we're obviously evaluating claims at this point.

[frelaras]

We should probably progress down the road of finding a good suspect before locking anyone's vote.
Your power makes sense for Quark, but it's kind of a weird town power, in my opinion.

[frelaras]

Duly noted.

[frelaras]

Just wanted to put this down now. I looked just a M4's post right now to see if I found a connection. Sek brought up something before she was voted out:

sekinj wrote:

I think there is a frelaras/mayhem scum team based on the coaching and distancing seen in fre’s posts 4 and 14.

You remember that the completely lackluster nature of that case was a large part of the reason people voted for her? I answered a replacement's irrelevant question; that's not providing a defense or putting words in his mouth or anything like coaching.
Furthermore, her voting pattern was completely erratic, and she got around to me, throwing out that as her reasoning. Yeah, I voted for her based on that. Don't throw out OMGUS as if it meant something by itself. If someone votes you for scummy reasons, you look them over and vote them if they're scummy.

@farside: I can't tell from your most recent post what you're saying I didn't respond to. Was that a quote from a post I didn't respond to? If you can clarify that I'll take a look.

(I'm going to a wedding today and have Canadian thanksgiving stuff this weekend so I don't promise instant replies)

[frelaras]

Yeah, that just seemed like a shotgun evaluation of everyone so it didn't really get my attention at the time. I'll respond for content's sake though, since it's a slow thanksgiving weekend (here in canada )

213: I was ambivilent about the character claim and didn't know whether it was scum making up something obscure for safety or the mod trying to make us wary. Turns out it was the latter.

249: So by definition anyone who comes to a thread late in the cycle is scum, eh? Ok...

297: I checked the vote count just above that post, and no one was voting for liam. Yes, I was agreeing with tim's case, but everyone else was busy chasing lurkers. So really, I was the first to vote for liam at that time, not exactly wagoning is that?

I see you're building more of a case based on that so I should address it a little more. You're misrepresenting me quite a bit there, and you're using some shady logic to justify coming after me. Seeks pretty scummy actually.

I'm also suspicious of your claim. I can't see Kira Nerys as vanilla. If Jake Sisko was a provided claim then Kira seems quite similar: a name with none of the flavour or a relevant ability.

Vote: farside22

[frelaras]

Quick vote. Lol. The mod just mass-prodded, so I'm not going to take flak for actually voting. I don't expect a quick lynch either (not that this group has been adverse to them in the past!) because 1) I believe farside is scum and isn't going to vote himself and 2) scum aren't going to make it obvious and trade 1:1 this late in the game.

Now... farside is pressing me because I'm not considering his sotty/ozymandius case. Let's examine it...
1) Post 33: "I think I know which characters will be scummy and which won't."
Ok, so farside digs up an ancient post that's pretty much WIFOM as far as any scummy value goes.
2) He doesn't "care for him."
3) That's all...
Great case!
Now I'm thinking about it though -- you're both the vanillas. Is this some lame attempt at distancing yourself from him?

So, no, your "case" doesn't make sotty look any worse, nor you any better. I don't feel worse for not considering it, and your attempt to sling mud at me for not considering its merits only makes you look worse.

I really just see desperate flailing scum here.

[frelaras]

If there's 1 scum left, we're not facing a quicklynch either, are we?

Evaluating who the other scum is can happen tomorrow, once we've gotten rid of the obvious one! Looking back over the past day usually helps reveal the connections.

[frelaras]

Well, I'd definitely others to get in here and comment. Farside and I going back and forth does little for the town.

I would like to point at even more suspect logic from farside. There definitely seems like inside knowledge of the remaining number of mafia, along with a dubious claim about what should happen next.

I'm starting to think you're the last remaining scum, farside, and you can't hammer or you'll be toast tomorrow.

The scenario just isn't as obvious as you make it out.

Liam, do you have a case on td you'd like to make or is this just a random gambit? Leaving it up to others to do the reread on your target is pretty lazy and not very helpful. I might be convinced to vote td if I saw your reasoning. However, also see my strong suspicion of farside before thinking I'll move elsewhere very quickly.

[frelaras]

*.*

[frelaras]

That doesn't make you look very good Liam.

@Mod:

You're sure that was a mistake?

[frelaras]

Just a note I do know a few mods who make either a GF immune to NK or a SK.
Thoughts?

Does this game have town NKers or an SK...?

Now you're just slinging mud. *.*

Between that and your overeager hammer attempt and everything else I went over, I can't really see me voting for anyone but farside today. But I've already said that...

I'm glad we've had some new action in this thread... I guess we're waiting on sotty? I'm around, there just wasn't, well, anything besides me and farside arguing until the Fonz replaced in.

[frelaras]

I'm not AWOL. I'm right here.

[frelaras]

Without Sotty we are deadlocked til Liam returns, assuming he wants to switch his vote at all.