Mini 660 - Star Trek: DS9 Mafia (Ruined = Over)

[CallMeLiam]

Hey Liam, about the link to the other ds9 mafia you sent. One thing stands out: its not a mini-theme. 12 players vs 25 players = Thats a huge difference. Less roles, less scum = less changelings and shapeshifters. I dont really think you can draw from that game and use it for this one because they dont have anything in common probably.

It's a DS9 themed mafia game. The number of players is irrelevant in how the mod picks the roles. Would you honestly pick Vic as one of the 12 most important DS9 characters? Martok could even be seen as a stretch.
It had a 100% changeling scum team and the fact that you're so desperate to rule that out means I think you're hiding something. You said I looked the scummiest, but last time I checked the case you made against me was based entirely off my stance that character claims aren't a useful tool in townie's analysis. The 'lynch all non-DS9ers' is stupid too.

vote: Timeater

[Timeater]

I'm sorry but a 100% changeling scum team is stupid. I would hope Delibird would have a little more sense than that. Also, you ignore the fact that a mini-theme and a 25 player game are hugely different in setup. Larger games allow for more power roles, more crazyness, sloppiness, more scum - while smaller games concentrate on balance and finesse.

Since when am I showing signs of "desperation"? lol what. I think you need to re-evaluate my case on you if you want to properly address my suspicion. "Based off the stance that character claims aren't a useful tool in the townie's analysis" - What? Not at all. My attack post clearly lays out that I think you are scummy because you have on multiple occasions tried to spread a philosophy of paranoia and confusion and the "hopelessness of character claims". To me, thats a scummy thing to do.

"The 'lynch all non-DS9ers'" is stupid too. - When taken into Sekinj's original context it is. But not how I interpreted it. I dont see how gives your vote any merit. Whats the connection? Oh wait there isn't one.

I'm not convinced your scum right now so I'm gonna refrain from a revenge vote.

[Light-kun]

Well, from my understanding of it, I would highly doubt we have 100% changeling scum team, but it makes some since for one of them (the Godfather or some other "high level" scum role) to be a changeling...?

Anyway, lynching based on character claim (unless it is so far fetched that it truly deserves a lynch) is completely moronic. In fact, I think that if we find a majority of claims, it would still be better to look at scum power: town power ratio over the believability that character X is likely to be in the game. (Although, this may prove to have some merit after a few townies have been nked.)

Hm... nothing else at the moment...

[ZONEACE]

Well, from my understanding of it, I would highly doubt we have 100% changeling scum team, but it makes some since for one of them (the Godfather or some other "high level" scum role) to be a changeling...?

See I'm of a different mind, I'd expect someone like Weyoun to be a Godfather possible. Obviously its possible for a founder to be the GF though

[Timeater]

Vote: Sekinj

For various reasons, some being apart of m4yhem's arguement.

[sekinj]

Vote: Sekinj

For various reasons, some being apart of m4yhem's arguement.

great. and the rest?

[sekinj]

first of all @m4y: you can look at the post all you want in hind-sight and be as self righteous as you want, but personally, If my vote is doing nothing, I will probably move it to another candidate in order to progress the game. Or shoudl I have just lurked and added nothing substantial?

I wasn’t being ‘self-righteous’ actually- once a townie dies I always go back and look who voted for them (and why) even if I was on their bandwagon myself.

The main problem with you saying you were trying to progress the game is this- you weren’t under deadline, conversation hadn’t exactly stalled and it was pretty early in the day; I don’t feel like you

needed

to vote for Jebus, who was already under pressure.
If you really didn’t think Jebus was scum, you didn’t have to either lurk or bandwagon- you could have tried to change the focus of the game by asking people questions, doing analysis of other players, pointing out the case against your own choice for lynch again; instead, you chose the path of least resistance.

Again, I must point out that you were not playing the game at the time. Maybe you can look at the date stamps and determine that YOU would not have been restless, but we really can't ever know that, since you were not playing. As it is you can pass judgement on my play and paint it to look like I was following, which is not the case at all. In MY estimation conversation HAD stalled. So I moved my vote to my second suspect. how scummy is that? your right, maybe I should have just re-posted my time case.

[Light-kun]

Vote: Sekinj

For various reasons, some being apart of m4yhem's arguement.

I haven't seen you as very scummy, but this action is fairly suspect... why not post your other reason so that other players might be swayed to seeing you reasoning. (ie, using someone else's reasoning is not the best reason to vote in my book.)

@Zoneace: I just read a bit on Weyoun, and I don't see why. I mean, he is high on command, but according to an addmittedly not super reliable source, he is only second in command. But, if you were looking for specific character (in other words, if the changeling doesn't have a real character), I guess I can see it and that is what you are saying. *Feels like I just talked in circles*

[frelaras]

Again, I must point out that you were not playing the game at the time. Maybe you can look at the date stamps and determine that YOU would not have been restless, but we really can't ever know that, since you were not playing. As it is you can pass judgement on my play and paint it to look like I was following, which is not the case at all. In MY estimation conversation HAD stalled. So I moved my vote to my second suspect. how scummy is that? your right, maybe I should have just re-posted my time case.

Yeah, I definitely think this is a good point. Bandwagons serve a very useful purpose, especially in the early game to get reactions and responses. When someone looks scummy, I don't think you need to invent new targets just to avoid the label of "following." I think that will show up over time as a tell in itself, which is useful in itself. But getting on a bandwagon day 1 to get some action going is hardly awful in itself.

[Timeater]

I haven't seen you as very scummy, but this action is fairly suspect... why not post your other reason so that other players might be swayed to seeing you reasoning. (ie, using someone else's reasoning is not the best reason to vote in my book.)

Retrobution

FoS on Light-Kun

for trying to make it seem that my lack of content is suspicious (how man FoS's does he have so far, three? Not sure). Do I really have to make super detailed posts every time I vote? I simply am suspecting of Sekinj and thus he is worthy of my vote. I really dont have to explain myself with a few paragraphs every time I vote, that irritates me. Same goes for Sekinj's statement.

As for the Weyoun comments, I see him as a completely viable scumboss. During the height of the occupation he was the head dude on ds9, with even Ducat under him (if I'm not mistaken.) Not sure if the game takes place during the occupation or not. Weyoun also has multiple clones.

It is the height of the Dominion War. The Dominion, led by the mysterious Founders, has invaded the Alpha Quadrant and taken on the combined forces of the Federation, Klingons and Romulans. As the gateway to the quadrants, DS9 has become the single most important strategic location in the galaxy. And so it is fitting that the final battle will take place aboard this station.

It has become clear that Dominion agents have infiltrated the station. Nobody can be sure of who is trustworthy. It looks like, despite all the 24th century technology at your disposal, it's time for a good old-fashioned mob lynching session.

[sekinj]

@Light: Weyoun is usually with the dominion, but there is an episode where he turns traitor to them and works for Odo. So, I can see how he could be a godfather role as suggested.

It sure was a shame when Weyoun died in that transporter accident.

[farside22]

@Light: Weyoun is usually with the dominion, but there is an episode where he turns traitor to them and works for Odo. So, I can see how he could be a godfather role as suggested.

It sure was a shame when Weyoun died in that transporter accident.

Can we just scum hunt instead of talking about the show?
Light why are you so wishy washy with your suspect list?

[Timeater]

Personally I think suspect lists are a bad idea.

[td]

Both wrong. I was claiming that any character claim could very well be faked in a game with shapeshifters.

That's an even more general statement, so my point that Timeater was misrepresenting you there is still valid.

--

Bashir and Martok were both replaced by duplicates during the show and I have no trouble believing the mod would slip in a Sisko, Kira or even a Kassidy shapeshifter as a scum role because I've seen the exact thing happen before in a DS9 theme game. Any character could be aligned with the scum as far as I can see. Scum hunt on play, not on characters.

Kira and O'Brien have also been impersonated by shapeshifters.

--

And the thought of a shapeshifter impersonating a major player, thats a little far-fetched.

Obviously, since that never happened on the show… </irony>

--

Quark couldn't be scum.

I have to agree there, while Quark may have a long criminal track record, he is not a “threat to the Federation.”

--

Well, he could if he was a changeling lol.

Yes. That would, however, also make him a changeling-that-impersonates-Quark (who could and possibly would be scum), which is distinct from the “Quark” role (which definitely can't be scum).

--

td - Et to brute (post 72)

Then fall, Caesar!

--

You shouldn't in any way cease suspecting me because you think my claim is a solid one.

Hm, “solid” claims as opposed to “changeling” claims?

--

See, I don’t agree here. If you’re town, the scum can try to work out your role from your character name, which helps them find the roles that are most dangerous to them. I don’t think anyone should claim unless they absolutely have to.

See below for the paragraph on nameclaim breakage hardening, the actual mechanic might not have much to do with the namesake character.

--

Hey Liam, about the link to the other ds9 mafia you sent. One thing stands out: its not a mini-theme. 12 players vs 25 players = Thats a huge difference. Less roles, less scum = less changelings and shapeshifters. I dont really think you can draw from that game and use it for this one because they dont have anything in common probably.

At the very least, both games share the same flavor. Hence, they do have something in common. Also, even if there is only one changeling, the point that it could be anyone still stands.

--

I'm sorry but a 100% changeling scum team is stupid. I would hope Delibird would have a little more sense than that. Also, you ignore the fact that a mini-theme and a 25 player game are hugely different in setup. Larger games allow for more power roles, more crazyness, sloppiness, more scum - while smaller games concentrate on balance and finesse.

The fact that a role is actually a changeling-impersonating-another-role tells you

nothing whatsoever

about the role's mechanics. Thus, the “more power roles in larger games” argument doesn't apply, since there is no need for them to be power roles.

--

"The 'lynch all non-DS9ers'" is stupid too. - When taken into Sekinj's original context it is. But not how I interpreted it. I dont see how gives your vote any merit. Whats the connection? Oh wait there isn't one.

There are enough regular (as in, appearing in more than ten episodes) characters that don't actually live aboard the station and qualify as “the good guys.”

Since lynching everyone not living on DS9 would make the game breakable through nameclaims, it is almost guaranteed to be hardened against that using roles that are neither “DS9ers” nor scum.

--

See I'm of a different mind, I'd expect someone like Weyoun to be a Godfather possible. Obviously its possible for a founder to be the GF though

Weyoun is the single Dominion character that could actually feasibly be pro-town (confer “Treachery, Faith and the Great River”). I also don't quite see how that could work as godfather flavour, since he actually tries to defect to the Federation, thereby not being a “threat to the Federation.”

--

Personally I think suspect lists are a bad idea.

QFT.

[Timeater]

Gee, thanks for posting td I love the forthought and planning thats gone into this d1. Its made the game very interesting and worthwhile. The games I'm used to playing players will vote recklessly and bandwagon for the sake of bandwagoning just to get the day over as quick as possible. This is a welcome change.

So I think we are at a crossroads. We're at a point where we can either sit around with our thumbs up our butts for the next two weeks and just hope something happens or we can start voting with a purpose. I'm somewhat comfortable for now that Liam isn't scum because no one has countered his claim. Thats leaves nine people (eight from my perspective) that are still possibles. Without naming names, I feel comfortable with the towniness of at least two people. That leaves six for me - and half of that six are scum. Sekinj to say the least is in that tally of six.

Is it wrong of me to metagame thinking that Mana and Pie would not asked to be replaced if they were scum? (not the two people I mentioned) Honestly, if I got a scum role I wouldn't want to leave, I have only gotten to play scum once and thats with like 20-something games under my belt. Scum is just too fun to pass up. Just throwing that out there to see what people think. Apart of me wants to believe this, another part of me rejects it as too much assumption.

[CallMeLiam]

Is it wrong of me to metagame thinking that Mana and Pie would not asked to be replaced if they were scum? (not the two people I mentioned) Honestly, if I got a scum role I wouldn't want to leave, I have only gotten to play scum once and thats with like 20-something games under my belt. Scum is just too fun to pass up. Just throwing that out there to see what people think. Apart of me wants to believe this, another part of me rejects it as too much assumption.

Yeah, in my experience replacing out as scum or town power is still fairly common. Boredom isn't the only reasonj to replace out, sometimes life just gets far too hectic and folk have to bail.

[M4yhem]

Again, I must point out that you were not playing the game at the time. Maybe you can look at the date stamps and determine that YOU would not have been restless, but we really can't ever know that, since you were not playing. As it is you can pass judgement on my play and paint it to look like I was following, which is not the case at all. In MY estimation conversation HAD stalled. So I moved my vote to my second suspect. how scummy is that? your right, maybe I should have just re-posted my time case.

Just because I wasn't playing doesn't make my opinion invalid.

I think it's quite scummy, actually, especially since both your suspects just 'happened to be' people that were already being voted for and under much suspicion. You say you weren't following- I don't believe you.

Yeah, I definitely think this is a good point. Bandwagons serve a very useful purpose, especially in the early game to get reactions and responses. When someone looks scummy, I don't think you need to invent new targets just to avoid the label of "following." I think that will show up over time as a tell in itself, which is useful in itself. But getting on a bandwagon day 1 to get some action going is hardly awful in itself.

I never said you should invent new targets.

Fos:

frelaras for misrepresenting me. What I said was, if you think the target everyone is talking about isn’t scum, you should look elsewhere, even if nobody follows you. Town should never vote for someone they don’t think is scum. sekinj was already making excuses for why lynching jebus was a good thing even if he came up town when she voted him- it’s this I objected to; if she thought there was a good chance jebus was town, she shouldn’t have voted for him at all.

Personally I think suspect lists are a bad idea.

What? Why?

Is it wrong of me to metagame thinking that Mana and Pie would not asked to be replaced if they were scum? (not the two people I mentioned)

It’s dangerous. Some people can’t stand being scum and everyone gets bored with mafia/gets busy at school/work/whatever/loses access to the internet once in a while.

Honestly, I’d rather be cleared based on my play than on assumptions like this.

[farside22]

Personally I think suspect lists are a bad idea.

Why? I didn't say tell me who you think is town. Plus it gets a general idea where people stand and you can see who is posting crap for crap reasons.

Timeater wrote:
Is it wrong of me to metagame thinking that Mana and Pie would not asked to be replaced if they were scum? (not the two people I mentioned) Honestly, if I got a scum role I wouldn't want to leave, I have only gotten to play scum once and thats with like 20-something games under my belt. Scum is just too fun to pass up. Just throwing that out there to see what people think. Apart of me wants to believe this, another part of me rejects it as too much assumption.


Yeah, in my experience replacing out as scum or town power is still fairly common. Boredom isn't the only reasonj to replace out, sometimes life just gets far too hectic and folk have to bail.

QFT.

[Light-kun]

farside, the weird thing is that every time I come up an idea for scum, it gets shuffled by the more recent posts. My initial scum list was pretty much Jebus.

Lately... I have been looking at two people a bit more closely, but mentioning who and what not could be a bad thing. It will take a bit of time.


@Timeater: That whole idea of yours will pave a road to hell as a crackpot theory. We cannot assume based off meta that a role is probably townie or mafia because people changed roles. That just doesn't make a lot of sense. Maybe the person got busy or they don't like DS9/Star Trek much... (Or maybe there are a few players they don't like in this game, etc...) In short, go with your second half and ignore the assumption.

[sekinj]

@Light - off subject, I have to mention how warm and fuzzy it makes me feel to see myself in your sig I can't even remember who I said that too, but I remember they were being very stupid.

[M4yhem]

Lately... I have been looking at two people a bit more closely, but mentioning who and what not could be a bad thing. It will take a bit of time.

Why would sharing your suspects be a bad thing? Taken a vow of secrecy, or something?

(Yes, I'm impatient. Deal with it.)

[farside22]

Lately... I have been looking at two people a bit more closely, but mentioning who and what not could be a bad thing. It will take a bit of time.

Why would sharing your suspects be a bad thing? Taken a vow of secrecy, or something?

(Yes, I'm impatient. Deal with it.)

Agreed. Sure I know sometimes scum use that as people not to target typically, however getting feed back from people on scummy action is pro-town.

[CallMeLiam]

I'm fine with listing who people think are scummy. It's not the most helpful or info-laden way to post but it's better than not saying who you suspect and then chiming in with 'I never trusted you!' when they're close to a lynch.

[M4yhem]

This games a little slower than my others.

How does everyone feel about a sekinj lynch?

[sekinj]

I did a quick read of most of the players in isolation. Here is what I found; this is roughly listed scum to town:

frelaras

– top of my current scum list
Post 4: possible coaching
Post 5: false dilemma
Post 8 and 9: still going after zone until zone’s day-vig was confirmed. Does not seem necessary. Why continue to attack rather just wait to see if the day-vig is confirmed?
Post 10: defends actions by saying it could have been a gambit… still seems scummy to have continued attack against zone rather than just waiting a small amount of time to see if the mod confirmed actions.
Post 12: Seems to be going after Liam regardless of Quark claim… I understand fre was just trying to make a point, but why pressure a player if you believe their claim?
Post 13: major appeal to town (which i find scummy)
Post 14: agrees with me against Mayhem regarding my votes… actually feels like buddying.

M4yhem

– didn’t see anything on fire and manu (processors) as they just posted mainly about not being able to post. Seems to be setting up suspicion on several players in his Post 0. on Liam, he sets it up so he can go either way. Also, his case on me is started with one post regarding jebus? Seems like there are much better cases out there. He then comes back later with more “evidence”.
--and no, I don't think a sekinj lynch would be good for the town.

Timeater

– had to wade through lots of fluff posts…
Post 22: this is where he seems to take Liam’s changling thing too far. Says Liam was trying to breed paranoia, which didn’t seems to be the case after reading Liam in isolation.
Post 51: I mentioned this before, but I don’t believe that just because the claims so far have been minor character, subsequent claims could very well be more minor characters.
I also don’ t believe that voting people to pressure them works at all. Especially if you make it public that you are only voting them to pressure them… they can read and see that, therefore, they feel no pressure. Also… if they are not even reading the thread at all, it’s not going to do any good to “pressure” them with a vote.
Other than that has been encouraging td by arguing series semantics.
Vote for me in Post 79 still seems to have come out of no-where. Not sure why he thinks that he should be exempt from explaining his votes.
--Oh and, sorry I’m afraid you’ll have to do a little homework in order to follow my arguments.. but that should be such a big deal since this is your only game… you apparently have enough time to make tons of non-contect posts, so I would think that you would have the time to look at everyone in isolation to see what I’m talking about…

Ozymandius

– not a good read, more posting necessary!!!

CallMeLiam

– Maybe his shape-shifters comment has been taken too dramatically. After my re-read I took it more like he was suggesting the possibility, but not saying everyone had to be changeling. I think Time took it a little too far and then Laim defended. @Laim: care to comment on that?
Post 8 – this is a very strong stance. I can’t fault it for being scummy, but I do believe, that given the claims and confirmed roles we already have it seems pretty clear that the mod is quite a DS9 fan and it keeping things pretty literal with the show.

(this also leads me to believe that those players who do not know the show are at a distinct dis-advantage)

Light-kun

– what caused your difference of opinion from Post 9 to Post 12? Otherwise has has some fairly good thoughts, especially lately as he seems to be getting more familiar with DS9.

farside22

– pushes for scum list… some people don’t like this but far seems to want it in all her games. I believe it is a good way to see where everyone’s thoughts are. Good starting comments on people. Once against seems very town to me

Nudude

– barely any posting. None in the last 10 days…

@Mod: plans for a prod/replacement?

td

- no read, has mostly argued series semantics and theory

ZONEACE

– day-vig has confirmed him so far


I think there is a frelaras/mayhem scum team based on the coaching and distancing seen in fre’s posts 4 and 14.

vote: frelaras