Mature Mafia: Game Over

[armlx]

Armlx: i must have missed it could you direct me to where you had your case on werebear or re-create it? (totally serious, just so you know, no sarcasitic, really want to see your case)

Its a result of my reread.

Ok, my first thoughts are the Mathcam wagon was complete bullshit. I expect 2 of (DGB, Nonny, Werebear, Tali) are scum for their involvement in it. Nonny is the least likely as Mac was the least participative in it.

DGB is pretty logical on page 9. Phoebus is not, probably 1 of the 2 scum.

Phoebus's fatalism is odd on page 19.

I can sorta buy Macros giving up and just voting, Phoebus seems opportunistic.

The only major town thing I can see from him is the desire to cheat.

[Talitha]

So logic, since you suggested people question you, a couple questions for ya..

Who do you think is going to win this game... town or scum?

Why aren't you voting for anyone?

When will you vote?

Can you please give your snap judgement on the following people... more likely town or more likely scum? (Feel free to elaborate if you wish)
- Axelrod
- Werebear
- DGB
- nonny
- armlx
- Talitha

[Talitha]

Hmm, add Adel in there for completeness if you like.


I still haven't been able to look over the thread... too tired and the screen gets all fuzzy when I try.

[logicticus]

So logic, since you suggested people question you, a couple questions for ya..

Who do you think is going to win this game... town or scum?

Why aren't you voting for anyone?

When will you vote?

Can you please give your snap judgement on the following people... more likely town or more likely scum? (Feel free to elaborate if you wish)
- Axelrod
- Werebear
- DGB
- nonny
- armlx
- Talitha

If we are in Lylo as suspected and with the general apathy of the town (myself perhaps the most guilty), I see it difficult for the town to pull this one off since it would require 3 successive lynches or a combination of lynches and successful vig shots if we even have that.

Im not voting because I was concerned early on about the scum possibly piling onto a mini wagon within a short timeframe and ending the game.

Since, we as a town dont seem to be too concerned about this possibility, I will vote soon.

I generally dont like classify who I view as the most town because that just puts a target on their back. But I will say that I feel the most likely to be scum are:

Adel, Nonny and DGB

Now granted, those suspicions are from the previous day really, so I will pledge to do a reread of the current day to see if any of this has changed. I will complete this within 24 hours.

[Talitha]

I generally dont like classify who I view as the most town because that just puts a target on their back.

Why would that be a factor if we're "in Lylo as suspected"? I believe that you don't want to label people as town, because it limits who you'll be able to vote for without attracting suspicion today. I think you're sitting waiting for a nice juicy townie-wagon to appear.

------------
Question for nonny:
WHY did you ask about a deadline very early on in this game day?

Going back a little further to something nonny said -

the fact that tally is trying to say we should go off glork and lynch logic due to it. While yes she was voting logic at deadline, she disregarded that axelrod was glorks biggest case and suspect.

I'm confused as to why I should follow Glork's biggest suspect, rather than my own... I was using Glork's opinion of logicticus to back up my own, not the other way around. In fact I remember you pretty much saying as much, nonny. Did I misunderstand you? Why are you backtracking and trying to use it against me now?

Also nonny. Yesterday (AFTER the deadline had passed I must point out) you changed your vote to logic and said "This is a wagon I do believe in." What has changed since then???

[armlx]

Why would that be a factor if we're "in Lylo as suspected"? I believe that you don't want to label people as town, because it limits who you'll be able to vote for without attracting suspicion today.

I have a response to this after Logic does.

[logicticus]

I generally dont like classify who I view as the most town because that just puts a target on their back.

Why would that be a factor if we're "in Lylo as suspected"? I believe that you don't want to label people as town, because it limits who you'll be able to vote for without attracting suspicion today. I think you're sitting waiting for a nice juicy townie-wagon to appear.

because maybe we arent actually in lylo.

maybe the scum will need to make a nightkill tonight and look at the thread and see who most people think is the most protown.

[Axelrod]

1) Why is not agreeing with your early posts bad?

2) Which things are stretches?

1) The point is, you are making these long analysis-type posts where you are pointing out things you agree/disagree with. For some people, you point out both posts you agree with, and other posts you don't. When it came to me, however, it was all negative. It's like, suddenly there's nothing I've said this entire game that you agreed with. Though you hadn't mentioned it at the time (as pointed out, the times you did mention me, it seemed like you were agreeing with me more than anything else).

It is a shift in tone. And it feels to me very deliberate an effort to try and get some momentum going towards an Axelrod lynch.

2) I'm talking about things that

you

said were stretches, I'm not saying that you yourself were "stretching."

Does not making you happy mean I am scummy?

Obviously.

Why is the Adel-you link I noted bad analysis.

Well, (a) Because it is non-existant; but also (b) what you are saying makes little sense anyway. Essentially (correct me if I'm wrong) you accuse us of showing too much knowledge about who did the scum kill the previous night. We both make the same "slip" and you see this "link."

If I were to direct you to Coron's post #574 where he speculates about the previous Night kill, would you also be suspicious of him? Oh wait, that's you now.

You also say I merely summarize and say like/dislike. What do you think I am only summarizing, and what would you like me to elaborate on my thoughts behind?

Every time you say such and such seems "off," or "odd," or I don't like so and so, or so and so is "WTF" or "reachy," and you DON'T explain WHAT about it that you don't like. WHAT seems off. WHY don't you like it, and you just leave your comment hanging there in the air.

What do you even mean asking me to tell you what you were only "summarizing" - virtually the entirety of those posts was just general impression/feeling without explanation or elaboration.

[Axelrod]

Axel, what differentiates what you are doing from the "like/dislikes and summary" that I did?

What I am

trying

to do is review every player and

explain

my thoughts about said player's actions. I am trying to explain

why

a certain post or a certain action rubs me the wrong way (not just asserting that it does). I am trying to put myself in said player's head and see if what they did/said makes sense from the townie mindset. Then the same for a scum mindset.

If you don't think there's a difference, well then I guess you are entitled to your opinion, but I think there's a rather large difference.

[Axelrod]

axel: first off you are useing the word "schizophrenic" wrong, sorry i don't see thing or hear voices in my head.

You're right, I meant bi-polar.

/humor!

Secondly you aren't taking interaction with other players into account. I was orginally after adel due to crap logic that made no sense and couldn't see why she was making such a poor case. The fact that tally jumped on with no reason gave me more insight since even before I replaced in I was suspicious of tally. Then I unvoted adel when tally brought up the "huh why did these poeple get reaplced..scum" logic. You didn't even taken in to account that I can read and listen to other poeple than adel, just because I was voting her doesn't mean I had eyes only for her.

I am trying to take everything into account, and I definitely try to look at the context (unlike some others). You attacked Adel for lack of participation/contribution. You didn't say anything about Adel's "case" against Elvis Knits initially.

Then

, when Adel pointed out that she had been "contributing" and referenced her case, you dismissed it and said that when you read it even before you replaced in you didn't see the logic.

Then you voted Adel after she voted you. You hadn't voted her before, but apparently her vote of you convinced you. You also (somewhat ironically) acused her of being jumpy with her votes - this is ironic because of how you jumped your own vote around at the end of the day.

You unvoted Adel for the reason she was being helpful by being active. I note that this came just two post after I said I wasn't going to be voting for

you

at this juncture over certain lurking persons because

you

were being active. Your unvote piggy-backed on my reasoning.

Another thing you don't take into account is that that "day" was over a month long, in that time frame you see new stuff, get frustrated with activity levels, and what not.

I'm not sure what I am supposed to take into account here. That people can get frustrated and do strange things?

I wanted to see poeple reactions to this. If they thought DGB was truly scum I don't think the vacation would factor in. However, if they themselves are scum going after an easy lynch then they would care, because it would slow down things and also take longer to get to night.

I see no evidence that this was your reasoning, that you questioned anyone about their voting of DGB or ever followed up this in any way. So, I mean, you can

say

this is what you were doing, but it does not appear to me that is what you were doing.

Furthermore, I believe your way of analysis is poor. Looking at only one person at a time doens't take into acount interactions with other nor what was happening at the time in the game. IF this was the only thing scummy you'd done I'd still go on it. Also you took more into account your opinion then mine, like when you said adel hadn't done anything that was convincing enough to remove a vote, that is your view. Also, why does adel have to be the one doing something convincing...tally did something convincing me she was scummy.

I'm totally taking into account "interactions" and what was happening in the game at the time (or at least, I'm

trying

to). I don't see where you can legitimately accuse me of this, so maybe you can explain better what I said that (in your opinion) wasn't taking into account the interactions and what was happening in the game.

Right now my gut and logic leads me to believe it's a axel-tally pairing. Esp, with how he was almost defending tally in a subtle way. Sure at the time what I had against her was lurking, but I also pointed out when she did vote it was to ask if we need a deadline or otherwise. Her actual posts lead me to the conclusion too, as well as her inactivity. You also said my suspicions came out of the blue when i switched near deadline? But yet you say one of my first suspects was tally. You give no "analysis" of my orginal case against her when i voted and don't even mention I had one.

I need that :eyebrow smiley here. Post #712 was where you first mentioned Tally, along with DGB. I described this post as your first expressed suspicions - and that's true. But it was

hardly

a "case." Actually, you don't even say that you are "suspicious" of Tally in that post, you just point out that she hasn't been posting much and hasn't contributed much content. In your very next post you say you would support a DGB or Adel lynch and don't mention Tally at all. Is that supposed to be this "original" case that you are referring to?

And the "case" you made at the time you switched your vote is irrelevant to the point I was making - which is that the timing was suspect. But it was also still odd that you would be jumping on Tally for her lurking and lack of contributing over DGB when those were perhaps the strongest points against DGB to begin with.

When someone is inactive as she was/is(even if she has IRL stuff going on she was inactive) it takes more time to analyize thier beheavior because at first there is less to go on. Also, the fact that tally is trying to say we should go off glork and lynch logic due to it. While yes she was voting logic at deadline, she disregarded that axelrod was glorks biggest case and suspect. It's been ignored, though their is the most to go off of for a cse on axelrod.

I don't think I understand this, but it certainly looks like you are trying to use Tally's vote of Logicitus as a point against her - she voted Logic while disregarding that I (Axelrod) was Glork's biggest suspect.

But you

agreed

with Talitha about Logiticus. You switched your vote

off

Talitha and

onto

Logiticus after this. You can't possibly be saying that Talitha's vote of Logiticus was another point you had against her.

So, what are you saying there?

I'll probably be looking Werebear/Phoebus's way next for this little series.

[nonny]

I wasn't only voting tally for her lurking or otherwise. It was rather the content of what she had posted. That is my only reply now because i"m in a rush to get to work soon.

To axel and tally: the vote is not what I found/find suspect. IT that the next day she clenched on to glork being town to further her own needs while disregarding someone glork posted far more meat on. Especially since tally herself hasn't post much on logic. WHile I do agree logic's behavior at deadline was suspect, right now it's lowered on my scumdar.

Is there a point to saying I voted after deadline? I didn't realize It was deadline till after I posted it. I was reading another game and thinking it over then thought it was suspicous and rushed over to vote, alas to late.

More response to come, perhaps if they are needed after i read more thouroughly...

[logicticus]

Current Day:

Day opens with people checking to see who was dead.

Werebear decides the idea that people without powers are scum is not so good after all.

Axelrod knew the scum would kill ek because thats who he thought was most protown

In 999 Nonny asks why people are insisting that non mod powers = scum. However, so far in the day, werebear decided against it not for it and nobody else has brought it up. whats the deal?

armlx declares he would lynch one of three people. but decides to vote nonny

adel chimes in and decides at least one of the non mod powers must be scum (i think its fairly obvious the powers were randomly distributed to all) and then wonders about how many scum there are

nonny and i get into it briefly as she mis recalls what i did twice

axel talks about eliminating those without mod powers. I am so sick of this conversation

dgb proclaims she will vote adel until the end of the day

werebear agrees with adel that there might only be 2 scum

adel goes back to thinking there are 3 scum

dgb slightly moves off her assertation that adel must be scum and suggests a werebear lynch

tally says she is down with a werebear lynch

adel and tally have an exchange where adel proclaims she didnt get what she wanted out of it and goes back to voting nonny

nonny does her big post where a couple of people (werebear, tally) do not agree with a large portion of it

adel says she is down with a nonny lynch and gets called out by nonny for being on the non powers = scum wagon.


thats as far as i have gotten.

this is such a disjointed game, i cant believe it. it just a lot of people arguing back and forth over pointless issues.

after rereading up to where i got (page 47), I would say nonny is my #1 target. Its hard to get a read on anyone with what has been going on and maybe nonny is suffereing from being the most active and having the most attacks on her, but thats how i feel.

[armlx]

1) The point is, you are making these long analysis-type posts where you are pointing out things you agree/disagree with. For some people, you point out both posts you agree with, and other posts you don't. When it came to me, however, it was all negative. It's like, suddenly there's nothing I've said this entire game that you agreed with. Though you hadn't mentioned it at the time (as pointed out, the times you did mention me, it seemed like you were agreeing with me more than anything else)

I disagreed with your play before I replaced. I agreed with your opinions after I replaced except for my change in opinion on the whole no-mod power 1 must be scum isse.

Obviously.

That sounds really OMGUS.

Essentially (correct me if I'm wrong) you accuse us of showing too much knowledge about who did the scum kill the previous night. We both make the same "slip" and you see this "link."

You are wrong. You both made the same slip, but the link is due to Adel's quick vote + unvote of you.

And when Coron speculated, it was 100% different. You two applied one kill to the scum group for sure, without any way to know that was true. Coron merely said "hey x happened", which is a weak scum tell for being an essentially empty post that only does 1 thing: light fishing.

Every time you say such and such seems "off," or "odd," or I don't like so and so, or so and so is "WTF" or "reachy," and you DON'T explain WHAT about it that you don't like. WHAT seems off. WHY don't you like it, and you just leave your comment hanging there in the air.

I have said multiple times if you want elaborations I will give them.

[nonny]

In 999 Nonny asks why people are insisting that non mod powers = scum. However, so far in the day, werebear decided against it not for it and nobody else has brought it up. whats the deal?

At the time someone said something that made me think they were alluding to the mod powers thing, went back to check and can't find it, but yeah...realized later i misunderstood anyways.

I'm not sure what I am supposed to take into account here. That people can get frustrated and do strange things?

That i may had thoughts about the game and new insights?

I see no evidence that this was your reasoning, that you questioned anyone about their voting of DGB or ever followed up this in any way. So, I mean, you can say this is what you were doing, but it does not appear to me that is what you were doing.

I'll give you that, but it was my intention granted i didn't state it.

I'm totally taking into account "interactions" and what was happening in the game at the time (or at least, I'm trying to). I don't see where you can legitimately accuse me of this, so maybe you can explain better what I said that (in your opinion) wasn't taking into account the interactions and what was happening in the game.

Mostly where you were tlaking about my unvote of adel and how it had to of come from adel herself, but then make it look like i was using your reasoning. While the reasoning I posted was about her being helpful and active, it was also due to what tally had just posted being interesting and me wanting to pursue questioning elsewhere. I guess I should have documented that..



All prods were picked up.

[Werebear]

How many scum there are isn't pointless, if there are 3 and townie is lynched, right? And the voting against me as far as I can tell is completely baseless, they're not even pretending to have a reason. Which is what leads me to believe at least one of them, if not both, is scum. Not that this town intends to do anything about it, apparently.

[armlx]

And the voting against me as far as I can tell is completely baseless, they're not even pretending to have a reason.

Hi. See my post. Mainly Phoebus's actions.

[Adel]

Is this game actually going anywhere?

[armlx]

Is this game actually going anywhere?

I think so.

Why do you think it isn't?

[Adel]

nonny hasn't been lynched yet.

[armlx]

Have you considered anyone that isn't nonny (not that I don't find her moderately/fairly scummy)?

[Adel]

have you been reading the thread? yes, I've gone pretty hard after everyone still living except for you and logic.

[armlx]

have you been reading the thread? yes, I've gone pretty hard after everyone still living except for you and logic.

I realize. Thats why its odd you said only nonny.

[Adel]

she is easily the most scummy, and I take the very absence of a strong wagon on her as evidence of her scumminess. Would scum really leave someone that scummy-looking alive this long?

[armlx]

Would scum really leave someone that scummy-looking alive this long?

What does this mean?

I take the very absence of a strong wagon on her as evidence of her scumminess.

While I can see what you mean, I want an elaboration.

[Adel]

IIRC

everyone

who is currently alive, with the exception of logic and werebear, has voted for Nonny at least once, and she makes frequent appearences on people's "top three most likely to be scum" lists. Logic has included her recently on his top three as well. DGB is the only other player to attract as much negative attention. I am used to reading through games and noting how scum often manage to narrowly avoid being lynched day after day, and that is how Macros/Nonny seem to me: obviously scummy players who managed no to get lynched day after day.

It wouldn't take much of a push to get nonny mis-lynched if she were scum, and nobody has pushed very hard to get her lynched. We are (probably) in lynch or lose, and she is still alive!

The only reason, as I see it, that Glork was lynched yesterday instead of her, was the entire "one of the non-mod claimed players is scum" agrument mostly fowarded (again, IIRC) by werebear. Werbear has only voted for DGB this game, and he abondoned that argument as soon as Glork was lynched. Phoebus only voted for mathcam and raj.

In short, there are a bunch of players who could be scum with Nonny, and who have made posts criticizing her that could be scum distancing from her, but there hasn't been a really strong and serious wagon on her, and she hasn't been lynched. How else could a player that scummy still be alive? It seems obvious that her partners haven't bussed her... and didn't Tally say earlier that it would be stupid for scum to bus this day?