Invitational 10: 2005-2006. Game over! before 624

pablito · Post Post #450 (ISO) » Wed Aug 13, 2008 3:41 pm

Well then why would it matter that I don't vote elvis? If anything, I'm more inclined to vote Ether, but I'd still need to see more for that to ever start up.

But I found it strange that you had to make a big production over what I did when I unvoted you. I actually mistook the vote count at that point as there being 5 votes on DGB at that time, so I really didn't need to unvote just to create breathing room, but I'm fine with not voting anywhere right now.

Patrick · Post Post #451 (ISO) » Thu Aug 14, 2008 10:16 am

pablito wrote:Patrick, did my last answer suffice or did you want more extrapolation. Just want to check in with you about that since I failed to answer you right away last time.

It gave me a good enough idea of your suspects, though I hope you'll provide some thoughts on elvis relatively soon. I don't really get your case on Ether, though I vaguely remember you using a kind of, "They haven't been on the defensive" type of tell before.

I can tell I'm going to have to reread these last few pages with more focus; should happen tomorrow. For now, I'm most interested in elvis spelling out her thought process on what the scum motive was behind the quote snipping.

elvis_knits · Post Post #452 (ISO) » Thu Aug 14, 2008 11:56 am

To throws suspicion on other players.

Also, I think sometimes as scum you start to do underhanded things without even realizing them. Because you're not thinking like a townie. Even though you think you are.

elvis_knits · Post Post #453 (ISO) » Fri Aug 15, 2008 5:05 am

pablito wrote: I must disagree with elvis that the environment of the game has changed. I think she feels so because it comes from her viewpoint, but I think if someone is afraid of participating, that's their own damn fault. However,
e_k
, if you feel that this is the case, then who is the most responsible for creating such an environment?

I don't think the environment has changed. I think it's been going this way all game with people putting too much emphasis on finding scum pairs when we don't even know if we have scum.

Personally, I find that I do better finding scum by just voting who I think is individually the most scummy. (With relationships being secondary, but yes, probably a factor). After scum has been lynched, I put more emphasis on relationships. But I still think there is now substitute for looking at individual actions. I think pairings present a lot of room for misdirection. I think it compounds the difficulty of the game.

Others may not agree. That's fine. But that's how I feel.

I wonder, those of you who like to call the scum team on D1, how many times have you gotten that right? I'd be surprised if it's any higher than random chance, and believe it's probably lower due to scum manipulations.

MrBuddyLee · Post Post #454 (ISO) » Fri Aug 15, 2008 5:48 am

Forcing people to talk about other people gives you insight into their relationship. For example, if you talk awkwardly about you and DGB, it's very possible that you're a scumpair.

So you don't have to be 100% accurate when discussing scumpairs, you just have to prod people into talking about connections.

ISO · Post Post #455 (ISO) » Fri Aug 15, 2008 7:21 am

Replacing OGML and IH, searching for replacements.

elvis_knits · Post Post #456 (ISO) » Fri Aug 15, 2008 9:30 am

MrBuddyLee wrote:Forcing people to talk about other people gives you insight into their relationship. For example, if you talk awkwardly about you and DGB, it's very possible that you're a scumpair.

So you don't have to be 100% accurate when discussing scumpairs, you just have to prod people into talking about connections.

Have you ever been right when calling the scum group on D1?

MrBuddyLee · Post Post #457 (ISO) » Fri Aug 15, 2008 12:41 pm

No, but I usually can catch scum on D3 based on something they said D1 about their partners and nonpartners. I'm not sure why you'd be so opposed to weaving such a relational web.

ISO · Post Post #458 (ISO) » Fri Aug 15, 2008 3:36 pm

Channedelibird replaces IH.

MrBuddyLee · Post Post #459 (ISO) » Fri Aug 15, 2008 7:58 pm

OK, so IH/CDB is scum. Good to know. Welcome to the game!

ChannelDelibird · Post Post #460 (ISO) » Fri Aug 15, 2008 10:14 pm

Aloha. I'll get reading and let you know my thoughts ASAP.

chamber · Post Post #461 (ISO) » Sat Aug 16, 2008 7:43 am

MrBuddyLee wrote:OK, so IH/CDB is scum. Good to know. Welcome to the game!

huh?

ISO · Post Post #462 (ISO) » Sat Aug 16, 2008 5:15 pm

Sarcastro has requested replacement. I am searching.

ISO · Post Post #463 (ISO) » Sat Aug 16, 2008 6:18 pm

HackerHuck replaces OGML

Patrick · Post Post #464 (ISO) » Sat Aug 16, 2008 11:17 pm

Welcome!

elvis_knits · Post Post #465 (ISO) » Sun Aug 17, 2008 3:50 am

Yay for replacements!

You have reached the winter of our discontent.

chamber · Post Post #466 (ISO) » Sun Aug 17, 2008 6:50 am

vote elvis

MrBuddyLee · Post Post #467 (ISO) » Sun Aug 17, 2008 7:24 am

chamber wrote:
MrBuddyLee wrote:OK, so IH/CDB is scum. Good to know. Welcome to the game!
huh?

Mod replaces scum before town. Just a hunch.

elvis_knits · Post Post #468 (ISO) » Sun Aug 17, 2008 9:32 am

That's horrible reasoning.

pablito · Post Post #469 (ISO) » Sun Aug 17, 2008 5:38 pm

I would also like to point out that we have fostered a very bad paranoid environment in this game where nobody can agree with another person without being accused of buddying, and nobody can attack another person without being accused of bussing. It's a very ass-backwards environment (that I think grows out of looking for scum buddies on D1 with no solid evidence to run off of), that severely favors scum and manipulation.

pablito wrote: I must disagree with elvis that the environment of the game has changed. I think she feels so because it comes from her viewpoint, but I think if someone is afraid of participating, that's their own damn fault. However, e_k, if you feel that this is the case, then who is the most responsible for creating such an environment?

I don't think the environment has changed. I think it's been going this way all game with people putting too much emphasis on finding scum pairs when we don't even know if we have scum.

Okay, so then from the first moment of this game there has been a horrible environment that has been fostered. Okay. Duly noted. However, is everyone guilty of such a thing? And if so who is the most responsible for creating such an environment? And to help you out to actually answer this question, who is the most responsible for counteracting this type of environment?

Hi replacements. I hope you act as a catalyst for us.

chamber, for being pretty talkative beforehand, this vote is joined with little much else. Who do you hope does not join you on the wagon?[/quote]

chamber · Post Post #470 (ISO) » Sun Aug 17, 2008 6:21 pm

I have no idea what that last sentence means, that aside I was voting elvis before I moved to dgb for the hammer (becuase she was inactive) after she got active and i unvoted her a bunch of people voted elvis so I didn't want to put my vote back yet cause i felt she had enough pressure, but then the game stalled and I wanted to get it moving again.

HackerHuck · Post Post #471 (ISO) » Sun Aug 17, 2008 7:18 pm

Thanks for the welcome. All familiar faces, except Bluesoul, whom I don't think I've played with before.

I told TSQ that I'm on vacation right now and it might take me a while to get my first read in, so please be patient.

Unvote

if there was one...

elvis_knits · Post Post #472 (ISO) » Mon Aug 18, 2008 3:40 am

pablito wrote:
I would also like to point out that we have fostered a very bad paranoid environment in this game where nobody can agree with another person without being accused of buddying, and nobody can attack another person without being accused of bussing. It's a very ass-backwards environment (that I think grows out of looking for scum buddies on D1 with no solid evidence to run off of), that severely favors scum and manipulation.

pablito wrote: I must disagree with elvis that the environment of the game has changed. I think she feels so because it comes from her viewpoint, but I think if someone is afraid of participating, that's their own damn fault. However, e_k, if you feel that this is the case, then who is the most responsible for creating such an environment?

I don't think the environment has changed. I think it's been going this way all game with people putting too much emphasis on finding scum pairs when we don't even know if we have scum.
Okay, so then from the first moment of this game there has been a horrible environment that has been fostered. Okay. Duly noted. However, is everyone guilty of such a thing? And if so who is the most responsible for creating such an environment? And to help you out to actually answer this question, who is the most responsible for counteracting this type of environment?

You know, I really don't know when this game jumped the shark in terms of relying too much on stupid connections between players. I don't think it was uber horrible from the start. And I don't think there is a definitive point where it got bad. I just think we've been going that way for a while. I can go back and see who the first person was to try making a bad connection between people. Is that what you want me to do? Blame it all on one person? I'm not sure that would really be reliable. I'm not sure the first person to say something like that is def. scum. But it may be worth discussing.

I think the players that have been trying to connect others most are: MBL, DGB, Patrick, Ether, OGML (I think he was saying something about sarc/bluesoul early in the game). I obviously know it's not possible for all of them to be scum, so that's why I made the comments that we were contributing to a bad environment. I'm not sure who is/is not scum in that group. But I have not liked some of the comments that each of them have made in regards to connecting people based off little evidence or reasoning.

Patrick · Post Post #473 (ISO) » Mon Aug 18, 2008 5:52 am

elvis wrote:You know, I really don't know when this game jumped the shark in terms of relying too much on stupid connections between players. I don't think it was uber horrible from the start. And I don't think there is a definitive point where it got bad. I just think we've been going that way for a while. I can go back and see who the first person was to try making a bad connection between people. Is that what you want me to do? Blame it all on one person? I'm not sure that would really be reliable. I'm not sure the first person to say something like that is def. scum. But it may be worth discussing.

I think the players that have been trying to connect others most are: MBL, DGB, Patrick, Ether, OGML (I think he was saying something about sarc/bluesoul early in the game). I obviously know it's not possible for all of them to be scum, so that's why I made the comments that we were contributing to a bad environment. I'm not sure who is/is not scum in that group. But I have not liked some of the comments that each of them have made in regards to connecting people based off little evidence or reasoning.

I dislike this whole campaign against people drawing connections. Let me link to an MD thread I made ages ago: http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 098#583098. I feel this thread is relevant even though I was asking at the time more with newbie games in mind. The answers tell me that drawing connections or not drawing connections is a stylistic thing: you can see a number of good players in favour of it, some are ok with it, a few don't like it. You're free to find it ineffective on day 1 if you like, and in one or two cases I even agree that MBL and DGB may be setting too much store in you being scum, but I feel you're trying too hard to paint anyone who does it as scummy.

And really, I'm relying heavily on connections? I've done loads of scumhunting based on individual players using tells and gut feelings; the only thing that I can remember doing that was even close to drawing a connection was asking you and PJ what you thought of each other; are you saying it's a crime to even ponder a possible connection? I think you're just spouting hyperbole.

elvis_knits · Post Post #474 (ISO) » Mon Aug 18, 2008 6:14 am

I mentioned that you were one of the people forging connections between players that I do not agree with. (And since the connection involved me, I am the best person to judge if it's right).

I never said that it's a crime to ponder the possibilty of two people being connected. I said we're relying too much on it. And I only mentioned your name because pablito was asking me to name people who have been doing it. Why do I feel like pablito set a trap, I walked right in, and Patrick locked the cage door behind me?