Monty Python's Mafia Circus Game Over

[Lord Gurgi]

Albatross!

SpyreX's claim was same name, different powers. Something to note.

Albatross!

[PokerFace]

My take on the cult:

It's possible that there's no cult and shaft.ed threw the Cult Unrecruiter role in there to lead us astray, but I don't think it's likely. If I had to guess, I'd say that the Spanish Inquisition are the cult, and that they can kill on even nights and recruit on odd nights (or perhaps have the choice of which they do each night), which would explain why there were two kills night 1 and one night 2. Certainly flavour-wise, it makes a lot of sense for the Spanish Inquisition to be the cult.

If it's a scum group (Evil Egocentrics) and a serial killer, then they either double-targeted Mirth night 2, or there was a roleblock or doc save or something. Personally I think scum + cult is more likely, but I haven't played in other games shaft.ed's modded, so I'm drawing these conclusions just based on the flavour and events in this game so far.

The means of Brian's death was not explicitly explained. He was found dead surrounded by his suicide squad.

Where did it say he was shot SpyreX?

Bruce was poked with cushions and Mirth was put on a dish rack. These are both events characterized by the spainish inquisiton skits. If the inquistion is a cult then they have killed both nights. This is why I lean toward them being a mafia or an SK. It is smarter to recruit then it is to kill when you are cult.

I don't know if is mafia, SK, cult
cult, mafia
mafia, sk or
cult, SK

I tend to believe there is at least a mafia since Darla wasn't called goon. the goon of a scum group most naturally goes on kills while roleblockers, doctors, and godfather's most oftenly use their other skills, unless the good is already dead. Then another member will make the kill.

And gurgi is right about SpyreX and Darla. Though in my experience only what SpyreX claimed is truly call a "Role-attractor".

[imaginality]

Ah, true, I'd forgotten the Spanish Inquisition use a dish rack. Yes, you're right, in that case the Spanish Inquisition player(s) are pretty unlikely to be a cult since they've killed both nights.

[Muerrto]

SpyreX's claim was same name, different powers. Something to note.

Can you name another theme game where someone had the same name?

Not impossible, just don't like it.

[Lord Gurgi]

Albatross!

I never said I did, and I don't. PF's cool.

Albatross!

[SpyreX]

Where did it say he was shot SpyreX?

I am apparently losing my mind. I swear it said he was shot - but, rereading, it sure doesn't one bit - just slain.

SpyreX's claim was same name, different powers. Something to note.

Yes, my role is French Taunter that taunts someone to target me. DBE said she was a French Taunter that RB'd (but came up role attractor).

I really dont think the cult is as likely as an SK - I can not think of a way the Unrecruiter would have worked that wouldn't have broken the game; I think it was a flavor name for Brian.

As for suspects:
Chenshi (Lurking, but obviously here, saying he's made statements he hasn't, no contribution (as well as some ongoing game meta).
Muerrto (I'll give a full case later, but a pinch of OMGUS, the odd focus on the cult (and me being in it), the "hunting lurkers is bad, my suspects (aside from K7) are suspects for lurking and the fact I, who he's brought up more than once, isn't even on there)
The Internet (Breadcrumb Hunting, The Softclaim, The K7 hunt / defending Chenshi)

Why the K7 thing bothers me at this point:
Yes, K7 COULD be scum, but of everyone he's tied himself tightest to another player. Although there are scenarios where K7 is scum and PF isn't, the Razor suggests to me that they are both the same alignment and, due to PF, I believe them to be town. Of course, the fact that K7 gives another player a night action could be very handy (one of the roles that has been claimed that would make sense for scum to get rid of).

I think I K7 lynch is a bad call today, Personally. The Fact is that although I dont like his play, he's made the connection that I dont think needs to be called out at this moment.

Of them, Chenshi is definitely far higher on my list today.

[Muerrto]

Muerrto (I'll give a full case later, but a pinch of OMGUS, the odd focus on the cult (and me being in it), the "hunting lurkers is bad, my suspects (aside from K7) are suspects for lurking and the fact I, who he's brought up more than once, isn't even on there)

Um...they asked who our scum suspects are. You're not one of mine so you weren't on there. Did you even read my post?

And where did I say hunting lurkers is bad? I said I'd rather hunt actually scummy people but I HATE lurkers. I'm not sure I've ever played in a game where I didn't say that at least once. I hate them. They kill the pace of the game with their constant prods and their 'I'll post later' blah blah. Meta me if it makes you feel better. BUT, that doesn't mean it makes them scummy just because I hate their playing.

As for the OMGUS and the 'case' on me? Looking forward to it. Since your two other points were blatantly wrong I'm assuming there's not much case there except OMGUS.

I'm focusing on the cult because it's day 3 and there's a possible 3 man cult about. How would 'Cult un-recruiter' be flavor for Brian? How come everyone else got an actual 'role' and no flavorful title like that? And how come you still can't explain that but are still gung ho about there not being a cult?

I said who my top scum suspect is and why so I'm not just focusing on the cult. Just because K7 used his action on PF doesn't mean he A. meant to, B. is town, C. is linked to PF at all. You're assuming too much there.

[SpyreX]

Um...they asked who our scum suspects are. You're not one of mine so you weren't on there. Did you even read my post?

Yea, I did. I also read:

Still don't like Spyrex or K7(due to DBE and IM, respectively) and still wondering who the cult is since we're at day 3 and they could technically have 3 members by now. Does that not scare anyone else?

Don't like K7 or Spyrex.

I'm still not sold on Spyrex.

As for the cult I've been putting Spyrex up there as #1 suspect for 2 reasons: he's a duplicate claim which is EXTREMELY weird in a theme game and he's also quite sure there's no cult even though he can't explain why we have an un-recruiter.

Can you name another theme game where someone had the same name?

Not impossible, just don't like it.

Hell, you've mentioned ME more than any one other player in an obvious negative fashion for the latter half of today. So, yes, its really surprising that you've not actually made me a suspect - if you're going to toss my name in the ring (often in the same breath as your "top" suspect) I'm going to sure expect I'd at least be a suspect.

And where did I say hunting lurkers is bad?

I said I'd rather hunt actually scummy people but I HATE lurkers. I'm not sure I've ever played in a game where I didn't say that at least once. I hate them. They kill the pace of the game with their constant prods and their 'I'll post later' blah blah. Meta me if it makes you feel better. BUT, that doesn't mean it makes them scummy just because I hate their playing.

Right here:

The rest is just lurker hunting which I normally like but with a growing cult and multiple scum running around I think lurker hunting is a good way to make the town lose quickly.

That sure seems like "I like to hunt lurkers, but that's real bad for the town." Followed up by your suspicion list of:

Chensi, Azimuth, Internet, TSPN(lurkers)

Now those 4 aren't just lurkers, they have done some things that have raised eyebrows but K7's claim just doesn't add up with IM's confirmed ability and I DON'T see scum blocking IM when there were plenty of other already claimed targets.

So, on one end, hunting lurkers is going to make the town lose really fast - however, 4 of your suspects you bring up - although you say other reasons - as lurkers as well.

As for the OMGUS and the 'case' on me? Looking forward to it. Since your two other points were blatantly wrong I'm assuming there's not much case there except OMGUS.

The OMGUS was kind of a joke to the fact you've spent most of the day poking at me about my claim - but yea, I'm "blantantly wrong" about the other points

I'm focusing on the cult because it's day 3 and there's a possible 3 man cult about. How would 'Cult un-recruiter' be flavor for Brian? How come everyone else got an actual 'role' and no flavorful title like that? And how come you still can't explain that but are still gung ho about there not being a cult?

Explain to me:

1.) Why the cult is killing? Or, is it Maf, SK, Cult?
2.) How an un-recruiter would work, at all, without making the cult instantly lose the game.

I said who my top scum suspect is and why so I'm not just focusing on the cult. Just because K7 used his action on PF doesn't mean he A. meant to, B. is town, C. is linked to PF at all. You're assuming too much there.

A. If he didn't mean to, how would he have asked the question he did?
B. Of course not, but that doesn't mean he's scum either and crusin on power-role lychin aint my favorite thing.

C. The fact that PF confirmed his action (especially in relation to IM's randomization) DOES on some level link them.

[Muerrto]

Hell, you've mentioned ME more than any one other player in an obvious negative fashion for the latter half of today. So, yes, its really surprising that you've not actually made me a suspect - if you're going to toss my name in the ring (often in the same breath as your "top" suspect) I'm going to sure expect I'd at least be a suspect.

If you can quote where I ever, EVER claimed you were scum then I'll go ahead and answer the rest of your questions. Otherwise you can say 'oops my bad' and I'll answer them anyway because I'm nice

Mentioning your name in a game where there's possibly multiple parties does NOT mean I have any suspiscion whatsoever of you being scum. The whole 'he claimed taunter to make himself safe' is complete junk. DBE had no suspiscion really before her claim, well not enough to be lynched, there was no way as scum that you'd counter her and get her killed.

Do I think you're cult? Yes. Very strongly. Have you convinced me otherwise? Not at all. Do I think there's even the slightest chance of you being scum? No. None.

Have you ever played in a game with a cult before?

[SpyreX]

Are we talkin apples and oranges here? Cult is scum - hell, any third party that doesn't win WITH THE TOWN is scum. It is not going to help the town win - and, if in those quotes (most of your latest posts) where you mention me isn't putting suspicion on me (which, if I'm not scum, why would you do) isn't you claiming I'm scum then hell, I dont know what is.

Do I think you're cult? Yes. Very strongly. Have you convinced me otherwise? Not at all. Do I think there's even the slightest chance of you being scum? No. None.

So, none of the suspects you listed are potentially cult - just scum? Who's the cult? Who would you hang today?

Get why saying I'm cult, not mafia is still saying I'm scum by a different flavor.

Have you ever played in a game with a cult before?

Forums, nope? Does that really matter here? Nope. If ANYTHING, the fact you're saying your suspects you think are maf (and not cult) when you feel there is a growing cult faction is even more bizarre.

[Muerrto]

Are we talkin apples and oranges here? Cult is scum - hell, any third party that doesn't win WITH THE TOWN is scum.

No, no, no. Because your situation with DBE I don't think you're on the same side as her. Because of your claim of a duplicate name I don't think you're on the same side as the town. If you wanna call the cult scum fine. I think you're part of scum group B whereas DBE was scumgroup A. Since she wasn't cult that makes you cult. Huge difference.

[Muerrto]

Have you ever played in a game with a cult before?

Forums, nope? Does that really matter here? Nope. If ANYTHING, the fact you're saying your suspects you think are maf (and not cult) when you feel there is a growing cult faction is even more bizarre.

Of course it matters. That's the point. You completely miss the difference between the scum and the cult:

A. The cult can grow, the scum can't.

B. Usually the cult can recruit or kill.

C. They're not known to each other so they're not on the same side so calling them both scum is WRONG.


Looking at A and B alone you can see that the cult is just plain more powerful than the scum. The only difference is that the scum START at full numbers while the cult have to GET THERE. But the scum can only go down in numbers, not up. The cult is much, much more dangerous if left for too many days.

[SpyreX]

No, no, no. Because your situation with DBE I don't think you're on the same side as her. Because of your claim of a duplicate name I don't think you're on the same side as the town. If you wanna call the cult scum fine. I think you're part of scum group B whereas DBE was scumgroup A. Since she wasn't cult that makes you cult. Huge difference.

Looking at A and B alone you can see that the cult is just plain more powerful than the scum. The only difference is that the scum START at full numbers while the cult have to GET THERE. But the scum can only go down in numbers, not up. The cult is much, much more dangerous if left for too many days.

Lets, for clarity sake, call "scum" anyone who doesn't win with the town that, of course, the townies would want to lynch. So:

Cult = Scum
Mafia = Scum
SK = Scum

Etc.

Now, in your latter you say the cult is more of a threat than the mafia, which if there is a cult, would be true - any threat that grows versus being static is, of course, more of a threat.

Farside asks:

Does anyone have a scum list they wish to share. Please state who your top 3 scum are and why. Just would be nice to here something beside Chernshi for lurking so damn much all the time.

You, clearly, have said:

Do I think you're cult? Yes. Very strongly. Have you convinced me otherwise? Not at all. Do I think there's even the slightest chance of you being scum? No. None.

So, you post a list of scum that doesn't include me at all. The whole purpose of a scumlist is to find out more information for a lynch. You have said very clearly the cult is more of a threat than the mafia.

Why, if I'm "very strongly" cult would you not include me in your suspect list? Is it because its early and the cult isn't a threat? Even, in that situation, wouldn't you want to target a threat to the town?

Ohh, and just because the capitals bother me so much enforcing a non-point:

They're not known to each other so they're not on the same side so calling them both scum is WRONG.

I'll be sure to never call the Cult or SK scum - from now on they'll be "Enemies of the State" that for every practical purpose would be synonymous to scum.

So, yes, the fact you have repeatedly called me an Enemy of the State yet, when asked for a list of suspects, decided that the growing threat that is this particular Enemy of the State is less than "scum" kept me off it entirely was very strange.

Following it up with this discussion (kudos for not really addressing my direct questions or, well, most of my post) of the most pedantic semantic argument of scum vs anti-town factions you get the new

DOUBLE SPACE HAND OF SUSPICION: Muerrto

The ONLY reason I am not voting for you right now is the fact that I am firmly convinced Chenshi is scum of whatever flavor you want to call it under the sun. I will be looking your way tomorrow.

[PokerFace]

Disclaimer: Took me awhile to find the right links to show my examples and point throughly. I appoligize for not bringing up some of the validity in these points earlier.

From my point of view I have considered the possibility of the Tobacconist not being in play and therefore being a red hering. And considered that the way I ask the question will be to true determining factor in completing my search.

SpyreX has considered that the cult may be a redherring because of how he sees a cult unrecruiter working. Spyre let me tell you that there is a rational explanation as to how there can be both a recruiter and an unrecruiter and the game not have ruining potential. I myself have played (ON irc) and read games where cult members did not know who their leader was or know who was all in their cult. They are rare in setups but do exist.

This game here
http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=7450
Had 2 cult recruiters and vanilla townies only could be recruited into each cult. The recruit could be in one cult and then go to the other (The backup mod explains at the end) and the recruits supposed weren't told who was in or led each cult so things wouldn't be breakable I believe. Only the cult leader knew who was in his cult and when they were in it. The recruits could only be a member of each cult once. If they went from cult A to Cult B and then back to Cult A, they would die as a member of Cult B. If they were recruited by both cults in the same night, they would die as a vanilla townie.

Usually when I play with cults who don't know their leaders, every member of the faction will return back to its original alignment and role should the cult leader get lynched. This next link has a cult where if its leader was lynched, all players went back to normal. This game also had an SK and a mafia group in that same game with the cult.
http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=7687
If a 12 player game can have Mafia, SK, and a cult, our 18 player game, probably can too.

A long time ago, on the first irc server I played on which ain't around any more, I also played in "Bastard Cult Games". In those games the members would know their leader and everything, BUT should the leader get killed, all members of the cult would commit mass suicide the next night in order to be with their leader in the "Chosen land".

So in general there are alot of bizarre cult mechanics that could be in effect to balance things out here. I would not be surprised to see a cult whose members did not know who their leader is in this game. I usually just scum hunt cults the same way I hunt mafia and SK's. if anyone knows some specific really useful means that works on just cults, feel free to shout them out.

[SpyreX]

@PF -

Thank you! Thats all I wanted to know. If there is a setup where an un-recruiter may work, then there is definitely more evidence for there being a cult.

However, I am still taking it with a grain of salt - like the tobacconist, until we have some concrete evidence (cult cop, dead cult, etc) I'm going to assume Maf / SK.

I'd still like to know why, if I'm so sure to be cult, I wasn't even a suspect though. That exchange really bothers me.

[TheSweatpantsNinja]

At this stage in the game, I don't think the distinction between "mafia" (EEC), and "cult" is one that we really should be worrying about. We should be searching for scumminess with this many people still alive.

And again, re: Spyrex,

there is a clearing investigative result on him.

(Which, of course, doesn't mean he couldn't have been recruited last night. . . but that's not the case Muerrto's making).

[Muerrto]

Lets, for clarity sake, call "scum" anyone who doesn't win with the town that, of course, the townies would want to lynch. So:

Cult = Scum
Mafia = Scum
SK = Scum

That's why you don't understand because the above assumption is wrong. Very wrong. You said you've never played with a cult in game before so let me clear some things up for you:

A. The cult win when they outnumber everyone. That means they want town AND scum to die.

B. The scum win when they outnumber everyone. That means they want town AND cult to die.

C. The town win when the cult AND the scum are dead.

So the cult are NOT on the scum's side and vice versa. Same for the SK. Calling them all scum is wrong, confusing, and leads to the whole discussion we're currently undergoing.

Farside asked for a SCUM list. You're not on mine, never have been.

@PF: As for the cult being a red herring, possibly. You still haven't found a tobacconist? Do you have to ask in thread or does it only work at night? Do you have to direct your question at the right person at night for it to work? Does your PM say anything?

[Muerrto]

And again, re: Spyrex,

there is a clearing investigative result on him.

Um...I missed this. Where?

[SpyreX]

That's why you don't understand because the above assumption is wrong. Very wrong. You said you've never played with a cult in game before so let me clear some things up for you:

A. The cult win when they outnumber everyone. That means they want town AND scum to die.

B. The scum win when they outnumber everyone. That means they want town AND cult to die.

C. The town win when the cult AND the scum are dead.

So the cult are NOT on the scum's side and vice versa. Same for the SK. Calling them all scum is wrong, confusing, and leads to the whole discussion we're currently undergoing.

Farside asked for a SCUM list. You're not on mine, never have been.

You're not going to convince me that anti-town factions are not "scum". But, assuming your belief - just because Farside asked for a scum list and not a mafia list or a cult list... you didn't put me up as a suspect when you think I'm part of a larger threat? Hell, you're not even voting for me (I think, haven't seen a vote count in a bit). Why would you not want a cult dead if they are a larger threat?

It's not adding up and hiding behind a "scum != cult" doesn't, to me, make your actions make sense - that is why I find you suspect as being an anti-town role.

Hell, am I off base with this? I know I dont have too many games under my belt, but I've read more than a few and I've NEVER seen this particular argument.

[SpyreX]

And, TSPN - are you talking about Strap? Or did I miss an actual investigative role clearing me?

[Muerrto]

You're not going to convince me that anti-town factions are not "scum". But, assuming your belief - just because Farside asked for a scum list and not a mafia list or a cult list... you didn't put me up as a suspect when you think I'm part of a larger threat? Hell, you're not even voting for me (I think, haven't seen a vote count in a bit). Why would you not want a cult dead if they are a larger threat?

It's not adding up and hiding behind a "scum != cult" doesn't, to me, make your actions make sense - that is why I find you suspect as being an anti-town role.

Hell, am I off base with this? I know I dont have too many games under my belt, but I've read more than a few and I've NEVER seen this particular argument.

Have you read one with a cult? If not please do before pursuing this further. CULT =/= SCUM.

[Lord Gurgi]

Albatross!

Enough. Scum is Anti-town, Cult is Anti-town, Mafia is Anti-town.

Albatross!

[SpyreX]

Albatross!

Enough. Scum is Anti-town, Cult is Anti-town, Mafia is Anti-town.

Albatross!

Thank you.

Have you read one with a cult? If not please do before pursuing this further. CULT =/= SCUM.

Yes, I've read games with a cult. Yes, I know what a cult is. No, neither of these have ANY bearing on any of this.

I'm just as culpable, but all you are doing is adding white noise and, ultimately, avoiding the real questions I asked.

Most of today you've brought my name up as "suspect" - yet, when you listed your suspects, I wasn't there. You've said this is because I am not "scum" but I am "cult". Again, why if you are so sure I am "cult" would you NOT be pushing for my lynch - especially considering you yourself have said cult is more of a threat (especially as the game continues).

Regardless of the semantics,

your

statements have not matched

your

actions. That is why you have been suspect and, considering this exchange, continue to be suspect.

[Muerrto]

My statements have matched my actons completely. Some people are more careful with their vote than others. I'm sorry LG said that about anti scum etc because it's still wrong, period. I wish others would chime in but this is really just mafia theory so drop it and if you really really wanna pursue it AFTER the game I can educate you in another thread, as can just about anyone else on the forum.

[SpyreX]

My statements have matched my actons completely. Some people are more careful with their vote than others. I'm sorry LG said that about anti scum etc because it's still wrong, period. I wish others would chime in but this is really just mafia theory so drop it and if you really really wanna pursue it AFTER the game I can educate you in another thread, as can just about anyone else on the forum.

Well, apparently I'm just sooo blind anyone can teach me so I dont think its going to matter. I really like the condescending attitude with it though.

But, again, for the last time we're going to try this very direct question:

Most of today you've brought my name up as "suspect" - yet, when you listed your suspects, I wasn't there. You've said this is because I am not "scum" but I am "cult". Again, why if you are so sure I am "cult" would you NOT be pushing for my lynch - especially considering you yourself have said cult is more of a threat (especially as the game continues).