Invitational 10: 2005-2006. Game over! before 624

[MrBuddyLee]

*standing ovation*

[DrippingGoofball]

Elvis, cont'd

Patrick keeps on the elvis pressure.

Really I'm surprised that elvis didn't rally more votes, I do think that the players attacking her are NOT bus'ing (and I see bus'ing everywhere). That would mean that, if she's scum, the buddies are steering clear of any nascent wagon, preferring to hop on mine, or to abstain. Hmmm. I'm beginning to think godfatheriffic here, a scummy player who appears not to be bus'ed, yet plays aggressive.

Somehow elvis managed to put Patrick on the defensive. Once again, not indicative of bus'ing by Patrick.

Later Patrick asks elvis what she thinks of PJ. She answers sitting on the fence. Recall that PJ studiously ignored elvis at every corner: "I don't have a problem with him. I haven't played with him in a long time, so there I'm not really going on meta at all. I just haven't read any of his posts and thought it was BS, or thought he was trying to be manipulative."

In this post, elvis is protecting PJ, while denying Patrick's accusation that they are connected. Meanwhile, PJ continues to either ignore elvis or give elvis a free pass like he's done all game.

Elvis, who's willing to hammer a supposed supersaint, chickens out and votes Patrick, her dogged attacker. Later, she accuses MBL of derailing my bandwagon, something she just did herself! All the while crying to be the hammer. Hmmm.

Now FINALLY, PJ says something about elvis, but ONLY after MBL voted for elvis. Coincidence? And what does PJ do? He sorta defends elvis kind'a.

In the meantime:

unvote, vote: elvis_knits

NEXT PLAYERS IN THE GOOFBALL GRINDER: the ones that are giving elvis a free pass: Sarcastro, OGML, bluesoul and PJ (pablito). The rest (lurkers Elias and IH excepted) I consider townies for now.

[Patrick]

I don't find Ether's asking for DGB to confirm/deny being a supersaint to be scummy, though I disagree that there's no harm done if DGBscum claims supersaint (even if it's a dead end claim, I'd rather know someone is scum now than in a couple of days).

pablito, I'm still looking for an idea of who you suspect most from your list.

Like pablito, Patrick also calls out Elias for lurking, but not IH. In this post,, Patrick makes what can almost be construed as excuses for IH's lurking. He later says: "I don't think any of them would make a good lynch today; I do think they need more heat early tomorrow so that they stop disgracing this game." Why not today, why tomorrow? What does he expect to change? Patrick does get townie points for pointing out that MBL seems to label IH & Elias as town for "no particular reason."

IH is generally so lazy that he'll blow off games regardless of alignment. I've played with him doing it as town, doing it as scum and even had to deal with it as a mod before (Mafia 70, where he played under the alt Flare). I'm not making excuses for him - I think it's very inconsiderate, especially to keep doing it repeatedly - I'm just giving my opinion that it doesn't mean much alignmentwise. My comment about not lynching any of the lurkers today was because I don't think any of them are all that scummy and it would be little better than a random lynch. I don't see it as practical to start pressure wagoning any of them at this point either.

I'm going to

Unvote, Vote: elvis_knits

[pablito]

Gotta stop posting at night when I know I won't necessarily be sober.

@pablito, the main part for me to respond to is my post 261, which I assume was a comment on MBL’s activity. Of course, MBL posts content as both alignments. He’s doing more in this game than I’ve experienced in all 4 of my past games with him (3 of which he was scum). I don’t understand your interpretation of DGB’s half claim either, but even if she was following some convoluted scheme, I’d say it’s high time to realise that it’s not helping. Who do you suspect the most from your radar list? Presumably DGB is up there somewhere due to the vote, but who else?

On MBL - Patrick, I (and maybe foolishly so) tend to put MBL on the back of my mind early on because he's one of the types that posts a lot of content throughout the game. Furthermore, because of his early defensiveness, thanks to you Patrick, we have a lot of reasonable material on him so far. But we shan't forget him completely, but perhaps I have chosen to not think of too much scummy about him so far.

I suspect most Ether. It's a lot of gut, but it's how she pushes things from a secondary standpoint rather than being the initiator of arguments. I find it to be one of my...(damn, I forgot that mafiascum vocabulary word)...oh scum tells. Yeah, the fact that I remember Ether from my read through as someone attacking but not being on the defensive (at least until now), makes me highly suspicious. She's attacking from one of the most advantageous standpoints and I want to put her on the defensive.

Also, I mentioned something about Ether being serious and her defense really doesn't settle me well.

Ether, that's like shaving a goat's udder after it can no longer withstand the hail. I haven't said you have been not serious at all either. Furthermore, I don't remember saying anything about Ether's seriosity when discussing bringing up the supersaint.

I was referring to your page 1 I'm-being-more-serious-than-usual comment (my original post had a reference to the nicknames I gave out in Lights Out 2, but it was sort of tacky). You questioned my belief in my interpretation of DGB's statement here:

I highly doubt that DGB is even suggesting supersaint and I'm not sure Ether was either,

Again, I mentioned Ether being serious in my first post only. I did not intend to question Ether's belief in DGB's statement, I really want to question why Ether had to state it out loud rather than keeping it to herself. To me, it almost sounded like Ether was hypothesising aloud with a scumpartner and really tried hard to curtail or move direction of the discussion at that time. It's a valid thought, and I appreciate that Ether evaluated that alternative hypothesis, but saying the word "supersaint" really brought a discussion that veered everything one way and made us ignore a lot of other things. Because bringing up the role of supersaint will automatically lead us to think of something else - which is who in the town should make the hammer - thus forcing the town move away from a primary suspect and suddenly think about secondary suspects. Saying something like "role which may have adverse affects on hammering" doesn't pinpoint it as much but also brings awareness to the point that we should be aware and cautious about DGB's veiled claim.

DGB I don't know. I feel this is standard play for her, at least from what I remember. But these latest posts get me thinking...mostly that I truly don't get her. I think that due to recent events, I should drop my vote (if PJ's vote still stands), but right now, something doesn't feel so right to me. I just can't get beyond this whole supersaint thing. I agree that a supersaint or something similar could exist, I don't agree that DGB has insinuated such. If DGB does have a power role, I still feel uneasy, but this latest analysis looks promising, but I don't think it's the panacea everyone's looking for either. She remains on my list, but I really don't mind that the heat on her is beginning to dissipate. And I really enjoy that she's participating and she should not feel that her presence and participation is detrimental. As evidenced lately, it's very welcome.

On DGB pointing out me mistaking IH for OMGL, yes, I agree. I made a mistake. I only looked at the backgrounds in the icons and failed to read names. Really bad excuse. That shouldn't change my opinion on either though. That post in isolation does not do more to think better of OMGL or worse of IH. I am quite sloppy, so I don't see what difference it should make to DGB though. I tend to write mostly from memory and I don't take notes, so I will make mistakes. Furthermore, I came into this game with a few pages before me. I am missing out on a lot of the intricacies of interactions between players. I primarily went on post-content to make my initial impressions.

On IH. If he's lurking, I don't care, actually. I at least know his style. As for Elias, I know little.

I am curious to hear what OMGL might think about me confusing him for IH.

I can agree that by reading the posts (as a third party), it really did seem like elvis was hiding behind PJ. I don't know what PJ was doing though. However, despite all this talk about e_k, I'm not sure I have a good sense on her as I do for others I've mentioned. I will need to re-read her posts sooner than later.

I admit I'm pleased with bluesoul's latest posts. It's starting to change my initial opinion on him. Originally he was one of my strongest suspicions, but now Ether and Sarc take that position, with DGB earning the benefit of doubt.

unvote: DGB

for extra breathing room. I can't wait to hear more analysis.

[Ether]

DGB, what kept you and what are your thoughts on the supersaint discussion?

Having said that,

unvote; vote: elvis_knits

. (Not influenced by DGB's analysis, but I'd prefer an Elvislynch anyway and their wagons are closer now.) I'd still feel more comfortable if DGB claimed, though I'm bored enough to shut up about it for a while if we're lynching someone else, especially if Elvis comes up scum. MBL, what were your Elvis/DGB thoughts based on?

I don't actually get Pablito's attacks on me.

I'd offer to defend myself from them anyway if he'd like, but I'm being ordered to sleep right now. The next hotel apparently charges for Internet, so I'm on limited access from here on out.

4 elvis_knits (MrBuddyLee, DrippingGoofball, Patrick, Ether)
2 DrippingGoofball (bluesoul, Sarcastro)
1 Sarcastro (OhGodMyLife)
1 Patrick (elvis_knits)

4 Unvote (chamber, Elias_the_thief, IH, Pablito)

12 alive; 7 to lynch.

[elvis_knits]

DGB's analysis of me is just regurgitating points that MBL or Ether or Patrick have already made and the I have already responded to. If they didn't like my explanation, they should have argued the point at that time instead of waiting for DGB to ignore my explanations and bring up the points like they were new.

I also think it's scummy how Ether says she's not swayed by DGB's analysis and then jumps on my bandwagon.

[elvis_knits]

I would also like to point out that we have fostered a very bad paranoid environment in this game where nobody can agree with another person without being accused of buddying, and nobody can attack another person without being accused of bussing. It's a very ass-backwards environment (that I think grows out of looking for scum buddies on D1 with no solid evidence to run off of), that severely favors scum and manipulation.

OF COURSE, scum will sometimes buddy up to townies and they will sometimes buss on another. But I don't think it should be the primary or only way you look for scum on D1.

I will say that I was stirring the pot a little in the beginning of this game to get it going. I never said anything I didn't believe or purposely try to trap anyone. But I did say things in a way that I hoped would be a little inflamatory and generate discussion. But most of the points against me are of the paranoid ass-backwards variety that I explained above. AND I believe I have already responded to all of them in other places in the game. If you don't agree with my explanation, please respond to that instead of bringing up things I have already responded to.

[DrippingGoofball]

I note that PJ/pablito, who's been giving Elvis a free pass all game, unvoted me, but did not vote Elvis. Just a note for my files.

Right this moment I'm about to tackle Sarc.

[MrBuddyLee]

Elvis, if you're not looking for relationships between players, please explain what signs you ARE looking for in order to spot scum in this game.

[Patrick]

I'm not arguing that the lynch need necessarily be DGB, but with her lurking and refusing to claim, that's what I favor right now.

Having said that, unvote; vote: elvis_knits. (Not influenced by DGB's analysis, but I'd prefer an Elvislynch anyway and their wagons are closer now.)

What changed your mind, if not DGB posting analysis?

[DrippingGoofball]

Y'allright.

Sarc comes right out of the gate aggressive and blustery, going after MBL with much gusto right out of the holding pen. When these things happen out of the vacuum of day one, my keen if murky brain immediately tingles with the possibility of bus'ing. Interestingly, after the initial jokey pursuit of MBL, Sarc continues to hammer MBL relentlessly. That is unusual.

I note this post from Sarc "PJ, please stop trying to blind us with logic." Mostly because both Sarc and PJ are among the players giving elvis the daily free pass.

Then he write: "Since Ether asked, my top three suspects are MBL, OGML, and DGB. Acronyms are scummy. Except for PJ, who's obviously town, because even if he's scum" OK- that's kinda joking, once again. Note an exception is made for PJ.

Then suddenly, after a lover's tiff with OGML, another player that gives elvis a free pass, he bolts, decides I'm scum and firmly plants his vote on me. After that he makes a few quite lenghty posts dripping with indignation against bluesoul. But he forgives bluesoul, and maintains his vote on me. I must highlight this in my notebook.

chamber also noted this, called Sarc for it, then Sarc says that he tried to get a reaction but felt bluesoul was in fact not scummy, it's all very weird.

Later he posts some fluff, says I should die, and fluffs off again.

Sarc is not his usual astute self. He seems the be posting stream of consciousness, or perhaps stream of scumminess garbage. I no like.

[DrippingGoofball]

Next: OGML

[DrippingGoofball]

OGML mentions elvis only once.

http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.ph ... 36#1161236

It's like elvis does not even exist for OGML in this game. Isn't that a s-t-r-a-n-g-e non-relationship between two players?

I haven't even started with OGML, but this was to cute to delay.

[Thestatusquo]

hi

DGB: 2

(Bluesoul, sarc)

Elvis_Knits 4

(MBL, DGB, Patrick, ether)

sarc: 1

(OGML)

Patrick: 1

(Elvis)

not voting: 3

(Elias, IH, chamber, pablito)

[DrippingGoofball]

OGML, who has ignored elvis the whole game, starts out by voting Sarc, another player that's giving elvis a free pass. After Sarc makes a witty joke about bus'ing ("I know how tempting it is to protect your scumbuddy, OGML, but sometimes you're just better off bussing. This is one of those times."), OGML answers: "I'm not a particularly clever guy so I think I'll just stick to whats simple and keep voting you. "

Next on OGML's agenda is to join in on the anti-MBL sentiment. He also sees a Sarc-bluesoul connection. Mmm... if OGML is indeed bus'ing Sarc, it looks pretty good for bluesoul being town. Later on, OGML produces this gem: " Sarc is the one making it look like a connection." Mmmmm...

OGML writes: "I have a pet theory brewing that there's something going on between Sarc, PJ and Ether." Yes, I noticed something between Sarc and PJ, too!

Then, not much. OGML hasn't posted since Aug 3. But still voting for the player he voted for at the random voting stage. Interesting, isn't it?

So far... elvis, Sarc, OGML are looking pretty scummy. Next, bluesoul and PJ.

[elvis_knits]

Elvis, if you're not looking for relationships between players, please explain what signs you ARE looking for in order to spot scum in this game.

It's not that I'm not looking for relationships at all, but I think that most players are relying heavily on pairings as a means of scum hunting. And I think that's dangerous on D1 with no scum dead. First of all because you're very likely to be wrong. Second of all because it opens up all sorts of room for scum tactics. When I'm scum, I try to link one or more of my buddies with other townies. It's a classic scum tactic. Worst case scenario I bring town a townie while I buss my buddy and look more townie. Best case scenario I lynch a townie and make my buddy look more townie.

So basically, I don't like it when people are linking other people together on D1. When we have lynched scum or it comes closer to endgame, I think there is more info to be had and yes, looking at partnerships becomes very important.

But it's hardly the only tool to find scum. And I think we're relying too heavily on it.

What other standards do I use to hunt scum? I look for posts or people I think are being manipulative. Example: how you, MBL, keep chopping people's quotes and then misreading them. Or how Patrick used the word "parotting" to describe me, which I think includes a lot of spin. I look for things which just don't add up to me -- like how Ether says she wants to lynch DGB, that she's not swayed by DGB's posts, and then jumps on my bandwagon. Or how DGB votes for me BEFORE doing her analysis of other players. Usually you come to a conclusion on who to vote after analyzing everyone. You don't analyze one person and vote for them, and then go and look at everyone else. This implies she WANTS to vote for me. She is looking for reasons to vote for me. Also, her case on me is completely unoriginal. She just strung together a bunch of crap I have already responded to.

[elvis_knits]

OGML mentions elvis only once.

http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.ph ... 36#1161236

It's like elvis does not even exist for OGML in this game. Isn't that a s-t-r-a-n-g-e non-relationship between two players?

I haven't even started with OGML, but this was to cute to delay.

OGML mentions you in only two posts. Is this cute too?

[DrippingGoofball]

Not quite so cute as him ignoring your existence; he mentions you in non-game related banter only. Otherwise, you don't exist for him.

[DrippingGoofball]

bluesoul is a harder one to pin down.

He's all over the map. Mostly waging an uphill battle against MBL, and a downhill battle against me. He voted both MBL and myself.

This is all he ever says about the controversial elvis, and I really like the "it's not quite hot or cold, or black or white, it's kinda tepid and grey, but not quite."

As for Elvis, last night I managed a full re-read of the game and elvis is now creeping up my scumdar a bit. A lot of that's been due to more recent posts as opposed to earlier in the day. Somewhere between an IGMEOY and a FOS, but not enough to convince me she's lynch worthy at the moment.

bluesoul has much more to say about PJ and Sarc and even OMGL than he says about elvis. So I'd say that out of Sarc, OGML, elvis and bluesoul, bluesoul is the least scummy, but he might just be more clever.

Plus, I haven't examined PJ yet, though I do remember agreeing with an analysis I read from someone else.

So, last but not least, PJ/pablito is next.

[chamber]

To the best of my understanding myself ether and patrick are also still not done. I was especially looking forward to my own review.

[elvis_knits]

Not quite so cute as him ignoring your existence; he mentions you in non-game related banter only. Otherwise, you don't exist for him.

I have just taken the time to count how many posts each player was mentioned in OGML's posts. The results are as follows:

Sarc: 9
MBL:5
Bluesoul: 4
Ether: 4
PJ: 3
DGB: 2
Patrick: 1
Elvis: 1
IH: 0
Elias: 0
Chamber: 0

I am making this chart to demonstrate the idiocy of connecting one player to another because one of htem has mentioned the other a total of 1 time. Or 2 times. Or 0 times. DGB and quite a few others are not looking at the big picture. If OGML has mentioned Patrick and elvis 1 time and IH, Elias, and Chamber 0 times, you can hardly draw a connection to one of those players solely on the basis of how many times they are mentioned.

[elvis_knits]

MBL is townie-town-town. Which he would be regardless of his alignment. He recently fooled me quite thoroughly in mith's latest game but I can't really find flaw in his play here either. He's going to drive me crazy all game that way.

More to come.

Also, talk about giving someone a free pass.

[chamber]

I'm not arguing that the lynch need necessarily be DGB, but with her lurking and refusing to claim, that's what I favor right now.

Having said that, unvote; vote: elvis_knits. (Not influenced by DGB's analysis, but I'd prefer an Elvislynch anyway and their wagons are closer now.)

What changed your mind, if not DGB posting analysis?

You are being underhanded here. She make it clear in the first post that her pressure on dgb was there because she wasn't being productive. Its clear then that it was dgbs analysis that convinced ether to vote elvis what I imagine her post meant however was that dgb didn't make ether suspect elvis more then dgb but dgb less then elivis.

[DrippingGoofball]

Good point, elvis. IH and Elias are lurking, but OGML did not call either out for lurking.

Chamber's play has been so completely lukewarm that I totally forgot he was playing.

I'm placing Ether in the same category as MBL right now. While I was reviewing the other players history she repeatedly struck me as quite townish, except for that last point brought up against her. Still not in the same category as Elvis, Sarc, & OGML.

Maybe I'll check out chamber now. I'm really sorry kiddo. Maybe you need a flashier avatar, or start posting in capital letters or sum'thin'.

[DrippingGoofball]

Also, talk about giving someone a free pass.

This is MBL we're talking about. He's playing a perfect townie game. With most players it means they're town. But with MBL, I'm not sure what that means regarding his alignment.

Meanwhile I'm sufficiently satisfied that we have enough solidly scummy players today for a good lynch.