Invitational 10: 2005-2006. Game over! before 624

[Patrick]

Check in post for activity, I'm busy today but can get some content tomorrow. I should add that I'll have limited access from Monday-Saturday next week; the place I'm going has wireless, but it's very expensive so I won't be using it heavily. I'll try to keep up though.

[chamber]

If your vote is on someone and you haven't built a convincing case, you're suspect.

You'll find a few such on my present wagon.

I hope you guys have a more productive day tomorrow.

The single source of our unproductiveness is you being nihilistic. If you claim there is little chance you will die, and I can't think of a reasonable role that is better of dead then in the open. Holding out to the last minute to claim is one thing but not claiming at all is being nothing more then stupid.

[Ether]

5 DrippingGoofball (petroleumjelly, bluesoul, Sarcastro, elvis_knits, Ether)
1 MrBuddyLee (DrippingGoofball)
1 Elias_the_thief (MrBuddyLee)
1 elvis_knits (chamber)
1 Sarcastro (OhGodMyLife)

3 Unvote (Elias_the_thief, IH, Patrick)

12 alive; 7 to lynch.

I've looked over Thespival. DGB's wagon is giving me a bad feeling--I don't think her failure to claim could possibly be optimal, but I could see her doing it as town in at least one role. If she's a supersaint, she should stop playing jester and claim; those are stronger later. Please confirm or deny that?

I don't expect any of the high lurkers to come back any time soon, and stalling for them isn't gonna turn out well. If DGB outright claims supersaint, I would rather no-lynch (or, if we can pull ourselves together, lynch someone else) than kill her. If not, eh, I guess I'll stay here; I don't see any interpretations of her 316 gambit except "supersaint" and "bullshit." Even if DGB refuses to comment, I want Elvis to be the hammer anyway.

But whatever we do, please let's do it quickly.

MBL still hasn't answered my question about OGML.

[elvis_knits]

Supersaint? Really?

Should we take any information from the fact that this game is in little italy, the normal mini area? Because I don't think a supersaint is a normal role.

[Thestatusquo]

because it is relevant to your "metaing" this game, two things you should know are:

1) As a mod I am very liberal with "normal" roles.

2) And this is most important, the invitational games are in Little Italy only because the first one is here, and Mith wanted to keep them all in the same place. This game is actually theme by definition, because anything that does not use "Italy mafia flavor" is.

-The Powers That Be

[Patrick]

I'm not seeing much to seperate the lurkers in my mind. I somewhat doubt that elias is lurking strategically -- he missed several weekends in Mini 585, a game which I took over modding a while ago, and he even critisised me there after his lynching for not PMing him to notify him he was dead (indicating that he was generally paying no attention whatsoever). I'm not especially impressed with his suspicions post because his top two suspects/reasoning for top two look rather mechanical.

I feel somewhat similar about IH's first post, although he asked PJ a fair question. His "Someone correct me if anything I've said is wrong as I was trying to read this quickly. " doesn't bother me as I can easily see that written in the middle of a stream of consciousness type post. I think his mention of Ether's case agaist elvis is slightly weird because the part he analyses is the most irrelevant part that was pretty clearly an early discussion stimulator. Other than that I can't see much else to pick out: his activity/effort hardly surprises me because I've seen him as useless for like a year now, and frankly I just wish he'd stop signing up for games and not playing them.

I'm ok with OGML's questioning MBL's town read of him, and might even have given him half a protown point for it, if he'd actually dropped it after MBL's reasonable explanation. Looking back, I weakly agree with Ether's suspicion of OGML's weirdly overreaching attack on her. I don't find it scummy that he's claiming there's a connection between PJ, Ether and Sarcastro even though I don't see one, because I don't think scum are more likely to do this, especially between 3 players who aren't strongly in the spotlight.

I saw IH as the worst of these three when I reread the game a while ago, but I'm not seeing much of a difference between any of them scumminess wise anymore. I don't think any of them would make a good lynch today; I do think they need more heat early tomorrow so that they stop disgracing this game -- any or all of these guys could be scum, and we need to force them to be involved in the game in real time. Scum have a far easier time lurking and making catch up posts every week or so -- don't let anyone do this.

It's actually occurred to me that Sarcastro hasn't done much lately either. Holiday might be a factor. I'm too lazy now (writing this after the rest of the post) to look much into him, although PJ's analysis seems reasonable.

---------------------

On current things, DBG isn't becoming any easier for me to read. I also am struggling to see what role could be better off being lynched than being in the open (supersaint is possible I guess, but rare, if that's what's going on, I want DBG to claim it right now). I could see this as a scum gambit and I could see DGB using it, add my name to the list of players who want a full claim. Without one, I'd be willing to go with a DBG lynch on the chance she's gambitting, it's a reasonably informative lynch anyway and I think she's done some scummy things. The wagon still worries me though, in part because of the stickiness of some of the votes on it, especially when DGB is an easy target if town, and because elvis's vote still seems a bit off; it's like she was building up to it in her previous two posts before the vote with what she asked DBG, and I'm not too convinced by her reasons. There's nothing outrageous here I can point too, but my gut dislikes it.

DBG, if you're town, please prove that you're not making up some story to confuse everyone, and claim your role. It's obvious that a bunch of people want you too, and I really can't think of any role where it would be better for you to be lynched than to have to claim.

My main dilemna is between DBG and elvis: which I want to lynch is affected by DGB's claim. I'll make it a priority to keep checking this game when on holiday: I think it pretty unlikely that we're going to be zapped by the day auto-ending particularly soon, but we have to err on the side of speed because of the unknown nature of it.

MBL: Have you got a top suspect/top two at the moment?
Elvis: In the post where you voted DGB, you said this:

Everyone is looking pretty townie right now.

I find that players make statements like that when:
1)they are trying not to scum hunt
2)they need an excuse why they are not scum hunting
3)they want to fly under the radar

Which seems to critisise her for only having a stance on one player (bluesoul). PJ has said he only has two real reads (on DBG and MBL), but you haven't mentioned that as bothering you. Maybe I'm not understanding the quote correctly, but if that's what it is, do you feel there are some differences between your issue here with DGB and PJ taking alot of middle ground?

Ether: Did you get anything from Thespival about DGB, or was that covered by "DGB's wagon is giving me a bad feeling"?

[elvis_knits]

Patrick, it's starting to really annoy me how you keep trying to connect me to PJ. Not only is there no connection there, but I don't think that you could honestly feel like you see one.

Elvis: In the post where you voted DGB, you said this:

Everyone is looking pretty townie right now.

I find that players make statements like that when:
1)they are trying not to scum hunt
2)they need an excuse why they are not scum hunting
3)they want to fly under the radar

Which seems to critisise her for only having a stance on one player (bluesoul). PJ has said he only has two real reads (on DBG and MBL), but you haven't mentioned that as bothering you. Maybe I'm not understanding the quote correctly, but if that's what it is, do you feel there are some differences between your issue here with DGB and PJ taking alot of middle ground?

I don't see the correlation here between DGB's play and PJ's play. DGB's comment of "everyone looking pretty townie" is a tell that I have seen scum make. It is representative of a player who is not scum hunting. I don't think PJ fits that category. Do you? Pj has been asking a lot of questions and commenting a lot. If he's not scum hunting, then I guess he's putting on a pretty good show. If you think his play is somehow similar to DGB's you're going to have to explain it to me, because I just am not seeing it.

And it really pisses me off that I am sort of defending PJ here because I don't know that he's town. I just don't have a problem with him.

[OhGodMyLife]

How to say this.. I don't think a supersaint is likely, and if DGB is a supersaint then I would have expected her to actually claim so. This would allow the town to come to a group consensus on who should hammer.

If DGB is a supersaint/wants to claim supersaint, she should do it soon. I'm willing to be the hammer with or without her outright claiming to be a supersaint, because I think its already unlikely she's actually an ss (as I said earlier), and I think as one of the bad lurkers I'm probably a good person to be hammering a possible supersaint anyway.

I will get into answering the questions aimed at me in the past few pages when I get home from yosbam.

[Patrick]

Patrick, it's starting to really annoy me how you keep trying to connect me to PJ. Not only is there no connection there, but I don't think that you could honestly feel like you see one.

First off, I'm not going to avoid asking questions on the chance they might annoy you. I won't get anywhere if I approach the game like that. Secondly, I was not trying to connect you to PJ, I was questioning your consistency between two players; that need not imply a connection. For the record: I have considered the possibility that you're both scum, not really due to any strong connection, but just because I find you both scummy and see no disassociations. If you think that's unreasonable, I'd like you to explain why.

I don't see the correlation here between DGB's play and PJ's play. DGB's comment of "everyone looking pretty townie" is a tell that I have seen scum make. It is representative of a player who is not scum hunting. I don't think PJ fits that category. Do you? Pj has been asking a lot of questions and commenting a lot. If he's not scum hunting, then I guess he's putting on a pretty good show. If you think his play is somehow similar to DGB's you're going to have to explain it to me, because I just am not seeing it.

Actually, on seeing this, I'll scratch that as I think I read too much into it. Regarding PJ, I think it would be rather harsh to say he's not scumhunting at all. I do think he's scumhunting less than usual.

[MrBuddyLee]

I think as one of the bad lurkers I'm probably a good person to be hammering a possible supersaint anyway.

What?

[MrBuddyLee]

Patrick, it's starting to really annoy me how you keep trying to connect me to PJ. Not only is there no connection there, but I don't think that you could honestly feel like you see one.

"Annoy"? I would think that if Patrick was disingenuously trying to connect you to someone, you'd think he was scum rather than be annoyed with him.

unvote, vote: e_k

[elvis_knits]

Hello. I can be annoyed with scum too.

[elvis_knits]

Patrick, it's starting to really annoy me how you keep trying to connect me to PJ. Not only is there no connection there, but I don't think that you could honestly feel like you see one.

First off, I'm not going to avoid asking questions on the chance they might annoy you. I won't get anywhere if I approach the game like that.

Good for you, Patrick!!!!!!!!11111111111111111111

Secondly, I was not trying to connect you to PJ, I was questioning your consistency between two players; that need not imply a connection. For the record: I have considered the possibility that you're both scum, not really due to any strong connection, but just because I find you both scummy and see no disassociations. If you think that's unreasonable, I'd like you to explain why.

Patrick, I have been asked before about connections between me and PJ. I have answered all your questions and tried to be as helpful as possible. YOU have not argued with my explanations. All you do is bring up different BS points. If you feel my explanations have been bad or unsatisfactory, why haven't you argued against them? OF COURSE you were drawing a connection between myself and PJ. You've asked about us before, so why wouldn't you be doing it now? Your failure to admit it is very strange and hmmmm, scummy. If you think I'm being unreasonable, I'd like you to explain why.

unvote; vote patrick

I still support DGB lynch, but Ether seems to think I should hammer. I'm perfectly willing to be hammer. So now I am off the wagon, feel free to bring her to L-1.

[Patrick]

Patrick, I have been asked before about connections between me and PJ. I have answered all your questions and tried to be as helpful as possible. YOU have not argued with my explanations. All you do is bring up different BS points. If you feel my explanations have been bad or unsatisfactory, why haven't you argued against them? OF COURSE you were drawing a connection between myself and PJ. You've asked about us before, so why wouldn't you be doing it now? Your failure to admit it is very strange and hmmmm, scummy. If you think I'm being unreasonable, I'd like you to explain why.

unvote; vote patrick

I can't remember asking you questions about connections to PJ. I don't have especially long online, so I can't check closely, but all I can remember asking that you might have interpretted that way was when I asked you and PJ for opinions of each other, which is something I do semi-often. I'd like some examples of "different BS points" that I've brought up, otherwise I'll assume that's just a cheap shot you can't back up. This whole quote by you is weird, and I'm not sure I can even see what you're accusing me of, let alone why you're voting me.

[petroleumjelly]

Thought I'd be replaced by now, so might as well post while I'm still here.

I will say that I've also rather thought Patrick was trying to connect me to EK, or

at least

trying to "test" a possible connection. Earlier in the game I mentioned that one of the methods I approve of to test connections is asking "X, what do you think of Y?", and since then Patrick has asked

both

what I think of EK, and EK what she thinks of me. To my recollection, Patrick has not done the same thing to any other two players. I was going to ask a question about this earlier, but I was trying to decide for myself whether he was being cheeky, coincidental, etc.

Note that you asked EK what she thought of me

prior

to then having her compare me to another player.

[elvis_knits]

*birthday-bites-Patrick*

Should be good fun.

What do you think of elvis_knits?

Elvis, what do you think of PJ?

Plus there was the "elvis is parrotting PJ" piece of manufactured BS.

It all rolls into Patrick trying to connect me to PJ. And before you say "I ask other players what they think of each other quite often and it means nothing," realize you haven't asked me specifically to comment on any other player.

[Patrick]

It all rolls into Patrick trying to connect me to PJ. And before you say "I ask other players what they think of each other quite often and it means nothing," realize you haven't asked me specifically to comment on any other player.

So what? Do I need to pull up examples of myself asking this kind of question in previous games? I sometimes ask for opinions of players I find scummy, sometimes I ask just because I don't have a clear idea what a player thinks of another player. Sometimes both. Sometimes maybe some other reason. I still find that an extraordinarily weak vote on your part.

[elvis_knits]

So what was your particular reason for asking in THIS situation? Why did you ask PJ what he thought of me and what I thought of PJ if you were not trying to tie us together?

Do you have a clear idea of what I think of every other player? Why did you ask me specifically about PJ?

I still find it extraordinarily strange that you won't admit you were trying to tie us together.

[Patrick]

That came under the category of asking about players I find scummy, and the category of asking when I didn't have a clear idea. I don't particularly mind PJ's characterisation of testing a possible connection. I do object to your characterisation that I'm trying to force a connection, then apparently voting me because you think I'm denying it (why would I need to deny it??)

And obviously I don't have your opinions of everyone in the game. If I was asking questions like that, I'd simply ask you what you think of every player. I don't often bother with that.

[MrBuddyLee]

e_k is weird. Not certain if this is a style thing that rubs me weird or if she's actually scum. It almost seems too obvious.

elvis: "i like chamber", nothing on elias or IH
barely anything on OGML
she doesn't have a problem with PJ but doesnt want to be tied to him
wanted patrick to explain something, wants to be seen not liking patrick
calls ether underhanded
wants to be seen as willing to hammer DGB
defends sarcastro, otherwise ignores him--possible scumpartner, could just be kissing up to town?
asked bluesoul his opinion of me, said something bluesoul did was "weird"
smells something amiss in MBL's behavior, etc etc
trying to prove herself to ether/gain approval

95% certainty Ether and e_k aren't partners--don't think she'd seek approval from a scumpartner
95% certainty e_k and PJ aren't partners--don't think she'd draw so much attention to her displeasure being connected to a scumpartner
85% certainty e_k and chamber aren't partners--gut.

Not sure if her Patrick and DGB weirdness indicates scumpartners distancing or just odd squabbles with town. Need to read those interactions more carefully.

[MrBuddyLee]

OGML's post was half a week ago, promising content for Sunday, and he doesn't have IH's horrible track record. Again, what caused you to forget him in 299?

OGML had made about 20 game-relevant observations before he caught his big toe in a sausage grinder. I don't see him as "off the record" today like I do Elias and IH. Why did you make hay about this and say I "forgot" OGML in a post about noncontributors when he's actually contributed 10x as much as the two primary culprits?

[MrBuddyLee]

MBL's guesses:

.5 of {Ether-town
chamber-town
bluesoul-town
IH-town
Elias-town
OGML-town } = scum

1.5 of {Patrick, DGB, Sarc, PJ} = scum

e_k-scum

I need to look into individual relationships carefully. e_k+PJ is not likely, but PJ still feels a little scummy. e_k+Patrick+DGB or e_k+Sarc+DGB or e_k+Patrick+Sarc wouldn't shock me.

I'll be somewhat surprised if Ether or chamber is scum. I'll be minimally surprised if bluesoul or OGML is scum. I'm wondering if Elias and IH would be posting more (feeling guilty about letting down their scumpartners) if they're scum. It's entirely possible that they're jerkwad lazy irresponsible lurking scum. I thought IH was cooler than that, but then again he should be cooler as town as well.

I realize I have multiple theories on some players (Elias and PJ, for example). Maybe they'll spur someone who knows these players better to comment on which theory seems to fit better.

[Patrick]

I find it somewhat unlikely that Ether and elvis are scum together, but not for the reason you gave. I agree that chamber/elvis is unlikely. Not sure on elvis/PJ.

Your last post kind of baffles me. You seem to be assuming both IH and elias are town for no particular reason, unless I'm missing something. (For the record, I know IH is perfectly capable of lurking like this as scum.) I kind of get that the post seems to be a theory thing based on elvis definitely being scum, but I don't see why that would clear those two. Also surprised that you think Patrick/elvis is at all likely; you've 95% struck off elvis/Ether because you don't think elvis would seek approval from a scumbuddy, so what do you think of the post where elvis seeks mine by trying to make me feel better about her? Quite a curious post overall.

I'm going to

vote: DGB

. Needs to stop stalling on the claim.

[MrBuddyLee]

Patrick, I found that post by e_k disassociative from you, but more recently her attack on you seems forced, and one possibility that would explain that is that it's really sloppy distancing. Why on earth would she hop off DGB, who she's willing to hammer, so she could register a vote on you for a half-assed reason?

[MrBuddyLee]

(For the record, I know IH is perfectly capable of lurking like this as scum.)

This is exactly what I was looking for. Thanks.