Invitational 10: 2005-2006. Game over! before 624

[chamber]

I don't actually think lynching dgb is the right play here. I just don't see what harm her role being out in the open would do after shes heavily suggested shes power already. It could certainly help get others off her back though. In short, suck it up and claim.

[MrBuddyLee]

I don't like this, which I actually just noticed for the first time:

Despite my attempts to find this game intriguing, I just can't muster up genuine interest in this game.

I know I'm going to be replaced in a couple weeks anyways due to law school

, so really all I've been doing is trying to ask questions so that (1) Day One has more potential to become increasingly informative as the game goes on (since

I generally think lynching scum D1 is unlikely anyways

, so you might as well look to the future), and (2) to make it look like I am more interested in the game than I really am.

Particularly considering PJ's play feels like a ball team trying to run out the clock without making a mistake that costs them the game.

Neil, if you're town, I'd think you'd be fired up about the challenge of catching at least one scum in an invitational game! Can you point to a good number of games where you've had this defeatist D1 attitude as town? Honestly, I don't see any fire in the belly from you, and it leads me to believe you are likely scum filling a seat and worried about blowing the game for your team. I know you are nervous as hell as scum, and this style of play you're exhibiting better fits "PJ as temporary scum" than it does "PJ as temporary town". I'd like to see more thorough play from you--if you are town, you are digging us a bit of a hole with your halfhearted (albeit volumnious) approach to this game.

MBL, both Ether and Elias essentially said "I'll be gone for the next week, so I will not vote anybody until I get back". Could you explain how you differentiate these two actions side-by-side?

Note:

Go ahead and disregard the fact that Elias claimed to have only read up to Page 5, and instead assume he

could

have made the most possible informed vote at the time

(this way both Elias and Ether would be "up to date" when they made their respective posts).

Why did you ask me to disregard Elias's limited game knowledge at the time of his no-vote? Obviously if I pretend Elias read the whole game and then failed to vote, I'd give a much more scathing criticism. Why would you want me to distort reality and my opinion of said reality in order to get me on the record about a version of events that never happened?

For the record, PJ's post about e_k among others being "middle of the road" jumped out at me as the kind of fence-sitting, conservative, scummy play I'm talking about.

[petroleumjelly]

Can I point to games where I

say

I don't have confidence in a D1-scum lynches in general? Probably not. That's not the sort of thing I like to highlight about my play because it is so obviously attackable (case in point), but regardless it's an attitude I've been harboring for probably the last year or so. I rather dislike Day Ones, and I feel much more in my element on D2 or D3, because by that time there are a few alignments to work off of besides my own.

I lost my "fire" for mafia quite a while ago. I have long since stopped playing to have "fun". Mafia is more a job than it is a game. I find that the only times I get "fiery" nowadays are (a) if somebody is attacking me, or (b) if I just really think somebody is scum (edit: or if I strongly think somebody is town).

Neil, if you're town, I'd think you'd be fired up about the challenge of catching at least one scum in an invitational game!

No, Todd. I've tried to get myself interested in the game, but it's not there. Experience has shown when I'm in a game full of experienced players, I lose, and the same will probably happen in this game. There will somehow be one scum who plays so good that they will win the game. That's how it always works with experienced players: you might be able to catch a few of them, but you can never catch them all. I predict most of the invitationals right now will end with a scum win precisely because of this principle.

As it is, you're attacking me more for my attitude on mafia as a whole rather than my attitude in this particular game. This really only shows that you have not played with me or talked with me about mafia for quite a while.

~~~~~

I asked to you to disregard Elias' not being caught up so that the basic reason(s) between your difference of opinion on Ether v Elias was more clear-cut. For failure of a better analogy, I was trying to remove the "variables" in a scientific experiment.

[petroleumjelly]

DGB is completely misrepresenting my posts. Since the "buttering up" post I have noted my complaints about her in Post 104, Post 194, and Post 273; there are other posts where I question her or talk about, but these three seem to give the basic reasons the clearest. I am further not impressed with her "who's considered me with a power role?" post, and watching her trying to crunch down all my reasons to vote her down to solely the "buttering up" post in no respect makes me want to unvote her.

[Ether]

So, um, DGB's appeals to emotion

do

make me nervous. (I still want a claim, obviously, but that part's not really an update.) I misunderstood the deadline rules and retract my offer to vote her on Thursday specifically.

I'm voting Elias because I refuse to let this day end while we have no alignment info on him(his soon-to-be replacement actually) or IH.

What about OGML? (I consider Elias the highest tier of lurking; followed by both IH and OGML together--but both of them can help themselves on weekdays.)

2.)

DrippingGoofball. So far I have found her "suspicions" even less credible than usual.

Hmm. What sort of meta do you have on DGB?

I don't think PJ's response is out of character. I'm still annoyed by all the middle ground, though. Understanding that they aren't at extremes for you, could you order {elvis_knits, IH, OhGodMyLife, Sarcastro} and maybe give comments?

[MrBuddyLee]

8.) You’re required to post regularly. I prod after 3 days of inactivity and replace after 2 days of no response to the prod. This rule is flexible if you PM me in advance.

Seriously, guys, Elias hasn't posted for 11 days, and isn't being replaced. This clearly means lurking is his win strategy and that's why he's not being replaced. If he's town, he's disgracing this invitational with his behavior and he should bow out.

IH and OGML have expressed remorse recently for their slackness and both expressed intent to post. We can judge their sincerity at that time.

Pile a few votes on Elias posthaste, please.

[Patrick]

What is it with so many people questioning the purpose of my questions lately? The best questions are the ones that don't have an apparent purpose, precisely because people don't know whether they're answering how they "should" answer it or not.

I kind of felt like you knew what the likely answer would be from playing/ranting with me, although I can't remember a specific time when I've said to you, "I often think attacks on me are trash" or something similar.

--> a.) If you think most points against you are nitpicks, can you show me cases made against you in a couple finished game that you felt were justified (i.e. not "nitpicks")? [Note: If you think nitpicks are justified, then please rephrase your complaint against MBL, because complaining about justified points just seems like sulking].

Newbie 224 (first game I played you, first game overall) and open 54 (my most recent scum performance). In the newbie game I think virtually everything said about me was fair although I haven't read it in ages, and in open 54, the most valid point of the whole game against me was made by Glork on page 3 or thereabouts, about my wagon hop onto appleof88. There are other games - the two where I was lynched as town, which I'm not going to name, and probably others that I can look up if necessary.

--> b.) Do you feel like you get nitpicked more as town or as scum?

I don't know. More as town because I'm town more, but in relative terms, I've no idea.

--> c.) Do you think nitpicks often have kernels of truth in them? If not, why call them nitpicks? If there's truth to nitpicks, do you feel they are justified? How justified?

I guess they often do have a kernel of truth. I don't feel I can answer the question of whether or not they're justified in general terms, I have to just say it depends. Answer to the next question might help though.

--> d.) Do you think scum or town are more likely to nitpick?

Again, I've never really thought about it in general terms, and I think case by case is more useful. For example, I could see town doing it early in the game just to get some discussion going. Later on it depends on whether or not there are alot of strong suspicions/cases going around, if there are, a nitpick may look bad in comparison. Sometimes scum dissect a player's posts and do it in an attempt to make them look bad, sometimes you see paranoid or stubborn townies doing it, and telling them apart can be done by looking at timing/tone/probably other stuff I've forgotten. In this game, I could see MBL's post as kind of feeling me out as town, and find what he's in the process of doing now to be modestly protown.

--> e.) Do you think you play drastically different as scum than as town? Do you think most of the differences are minor? Minor enough to sound nitpicky?

I think there are some fairly significant differences, which I wouldn't call nitpicky.

-----------------

So, um, DGB's appeals to emotion do make me nervous.

They sound kind of genuine to me, although I know DGB has a reputation of being a good actor.

Elvis's vote for DGB is bugging me, and I am really struggling to articulate why. The best I can do is say that I don't really find DGB's, "We need more voting/wagoning" comment to be scummy - it's weird, but seems like it's as likely to draw votes onto her as onto anyone else, since she's the leading wagon, and therefore, I find elvis's translation of it in post 265 innacurate.

There's other stuff I need to do, like look more closely at the lurkers highlighted in the last two posts, but I really have to leave this now. Hopefully later. In the meantime, we're probably ok if we have a decent number of people posting often, since the formula probably takes into account number of posts and number of players posting.

[Thestatusquo]

Elias camp is over in 2.5 weeks. While I am really grumbling and upset by the situation, I think the best plan, as a mod, is to wait for him to be finished with it, provided he promises to step up his production on the weekends. I don't think wasting one of our replacements on a slot which will become fully productive in 2.5 weeks is in our best interests especially because at this point it looks like IH and OGML might at some point have to be replaced and PJ is known to have to be replaced at some point. Just sharing with you some mod thoughts. Feel free to PM me and disagree with them if you'd like

[petroleumjelly]

I'm still annoyed by all the middle ground, though. Understanding that they aren't at extremes for you, could you order {elvis_knits, IH, OhGodMyLife, Sarcastro} and maybe give comments.

First off, I’d like to know what’s “wrong” with saying I find EK “middle of the road”. I want an answer from both MBL and Ether on this, since both of you claim to dislike it.

As crazy as it sounds, “middle of the road” is where MOST players are for me (which I’ve already said). I have leanings in my mind on two players: MBL and DGB, and I’ve explained exactly why they are where they are earlier. When I get a leaning, I say it; when I don’t, I don’t.

Since you claim not to like “middle of the road” analysis, you can probably expect to be disappointed with this post. I can’t magically

force

myself to get a leaning; I either get one or I don’t.

Already commented on EK, no point repeating myself.

IH

My biggest worry from IH is his actually his first post. In it, he tries to give the impression that he is writing the post as he is reading -- as indicated by his eventual striking of his commentary on me (basically saying: “I was thinking this up until Post X”). However, in the middle of his post he inserts:

Someone correct me if anything I've said is wrong as I was trying to read this quickly.

Which would certainly make more sense at the end of his post, rather than smack-dab in the middle of it. This suggests

against

a “stream-of-consciousness” post, which I think (other than this one quote) IH is trying to portray himself as writing. I was rather hoping for at least another IH-“catch-up” post to see if this trend would continue before I’m replaced, hence why I didn’t mention this before. [Note: This is similar to asking MBL if he was doing isolated rereads, but by that time MBL had done a few analyses and I wanted to see if my question would result in him changing his analysis-style if he was in fact doing isolated rereads].

Other than that, I’m mostly just waiting for him to explain the “slightly strange” thing about BS-MBL. He has hardly posted anything, and I don’t have a very good meta on IH because I can only recall two games with IH, both of which where he was scum (one on-going game, and Ye Olde Porte Towne). He was much more active in YOPT.

Middle of the road. [Surprise!]. Main thing is he needs to post more. In terms of “scumminess”, this puts me at IH > EK.

OGML

I felt his original comment of “why does MBL think I’m town” was a justified thought, but I haven’t been thrilled with his “pairings” commentary. He’s suggested BS-Sarc, and more lately Sarc-PJ-Ether. I think this is at least a pretty useless way to “scumhunt”. For the most part, he seems to be claiming some things without backing them up (why Patrick “has his hackles up” and his “pet theory”). Like IH, he mainly needs to post more.

I don't really like his posting, actually (although this is probably influenced by his absence of late, which has at least some explanation). It feels more like he's trying to get others to do "the work" more than he is willing to do it himself.

Another middler, but I like his posts less than IH’s. OGML > IH > EK.

Sarcastro

Complaints from others I don’t agree with: I don’t agree that he was “defending” Bluesoul early in the game – anybody could have explained Bluesoul’s post. I don’t think his “stop blinding us with logic” post was meant to discourage discussion, because the only person that could “discourage” would be me, and a post like that is far from being effective in doing that.

A couple complaints, though. Although I (obviously) agree with his vote on DGB, I am not too pleased that he hasn’t actually given many reasons to vote for DGB. He basically just continually says “DGB needs to die”. I dislike his general playstyle (which is basically “everything is obvious, if you don’t see it you’re stupid”), but that’s more of a universal complaint than one for just this game; I don’t think it’s telling of alignment. I also (as mentioned earlier) think his “how do you know there was night-talking” was not as hypothetical as he claims it was.

Although my Sarc commentary is mostly complaints, I really don’t feel like Sarc has deviated much from his usual playstyle.

OGML > Sarc > IH > EK. This list is very subject to change, seeing as I find little to differentiate between them so far.

[Ether]

Seriously, guys, Elias hasn't posted for 11 days, and isn't being replaced. This clearly means lurking is his win strategy and that's why he's not being replaced. If he's town, he's disgracing this invitational with his behavior and he should bow out.

Meh.

IH and OGML have expressed remorse recently for their slackness and both expressed intent to post. We can judge their sincerity at that time.

OGML's post was half a week ago, promising content for Sunday, and he doesn't have IH's horrible track record. Again, what caused you to forget him in 299?

I don't think PJ's response is out of character. I'm still annoyed by all the middle ground, though. Understanding that they aren't at extremes for you, could you order {elvis_knits, IH, OhGodMyLife, Sarcastro} and maybe give comments?

First off, I’d like to know what’s “wrong” with saying I find EK “middle of the road”. I want an answer from both MBL and Ether on this, since both of you claim to dislike it.

I said

all

the middle ground, and I'm pretty sure that the paragraph you quoted indicates this. I'm not wild about your stance on Elvis, no--I do find her scummy--but it's not something I'd push far on its own, and it's not like you're alone there.

Why are you saying "'wrong'" in quotations? Neither MBL nor I have ever used that specific word to refer to your stances.

Understanding that they aren't at extremes for you,

Since you claim not to like “middle of the road” analysis, you can probably expect to be disappointed with this post.

Uh.

And again--what is your experience with DGB? What do you expect from her as town?

She still needs to claim.

[petroleumjelly]

I used "wrong" because it was the first word that came to mind, and I used parentheses because I don't agree it's wrong.

~~~~~

The only games I recall being in with DGB are Thespival, Kingmaker II, and Lights Out II (she was town in all three -- I was scum in Kingmaker II, however). [She played under Beep! Beep!, Toaster Strudel, and Penguins of the Serengeti, respectfully].

I honestly don't remember much about LO2 and KM2. But I do remember her play in Thespival. In that game, I spent a good deal of time attacking her "method" of scumhunting, which was basically: "If there are a lot of dead townspeople on a wagon, the other people on the wagon are scum".

I don't remember what convinced me not to lynch her in the end specifically; it was probably just that I felt sincerity from her posts in the end. She gave a distinct impression of scumhunting in Thespival (however misdirected), but I haven't really felt that in this game.

I'm not swayed by her "lynch me and find out" posts; I think that's a consistent thing in her play regardless of alignment (although I can't think of a game where I played with her where she was scum, I know she pulled that same thing in at least Thespival).

As for "what I expect from her as town", that's not something I'm going to post, and I actually quite dislike that question. Giving a list of things I think would come from a certain player if they are town just strikes me as stupid.

[bluesoul]

Elias camp is over in 2.5 weeks. While I am really grumbling and upset by the situation, I think the best plan, as a mod, is to wait for him to be finished with it, provided he promises to step up his production on the weekends. I don't think wasting one of our replacements on a slot which will become fully productive in 2.5 weeks is in our best interests especially because at this point it looks like IH and OGML might at some point have to be replaced and PJ is known to have to be replaced at some point. Just sharing with you some mod thoughts. Feel free to PM me and disagree with them if you'd like

Anyone that still wants to skate around a deadline we don't know the formula to and drag day one out at least another three weeks needs to get your head checked. Activitity is already in the crapper, I'm going to be very put out with the town if we end up with an accidental no lynch on the basis of some obscure "must have a read on everyone the very first day" principle.

DGB still needs to claim.

[bluesoul]

I think my point's been made. 12 hours and no new posts? Unacceptable.

[Ether]

vote: DrippingGoofball

Limited access over Yosarian's Parents' BeachBam, though I'm bringing my laptop and there's supposedly an Internet connection.

[Ether]

I'm not swayed by her "lynch me and find out" posts; I think that's a consistent thing in her play regardless of alignment (although I can't think of a game where I played with her where she was scum, I know she pulled that same thing in at least Thespival).

Actually, I haven't seen that in games with her as scum. With no regards to ongoing games, and not counting games in which I have no memory how she behaved (Restrictions 3, Lights Out 2), I don't have any games with her as town to compare.

Meh.

[chamber]

I think my point's been made. 12 hours and no new posts? Unacceptable.

We are more waiting on a dgb claim then anything else i think. Are you suggesting we lynch her with out letting her claim?

[DrippingGoofball]

Lynch me.

I know it's unconventioanl, but it's BETTER for the town if I'm lynched without a claim. You'll have more clues tomorrow, trust me. When you see my role, you'll get it.

Hammer and enjoy.

[DrippingGoofball]

Here's a tool...



*** whistles while she waits ***

[bluesoul]

I think my point's been made. 12 hours and no new posts? Unacceptable.

We are more waiting on a dgb claim then anything else i think. Are you suggesting we lynch her with out letting her claim?

If she continues this act, and the alternative is a possible deadline with no lynch, absolutely. I'll admit it's a little bizarre but I'm not about to let her slide indefinitely on this; the longer we wait on a claim (which so far she has shown she has no inclination to do so), the more we risk the overall welfare of the town.

Shea can be a bit of a bastard mod, if he says there's math going on to determine deadlines I believe him, I also believe it can be a pretty strict formula and I know he will not bend the rules if the activity is somewhat there but it still qualifies for this deadline. He loves rules, that's why he's using my ruleset.

[DrippingGoofball]

Bluesoul, do it. You know you want to.

I suspect deadline is far enough away, it appears that the mod won't cut us off without Elias having contributed sufficiently, and confirming the IH and OGML situations.

Don't use deadline as an excuse, scumbag. Come on. Look at that plump, colorful tool I have provided you with. Don't you just want to grab it and hammer me?

[bluesoul]

I'm already voting for you. If you'd bothered to pay attention you'd have probably realized that several days ago.

[bluesoul]

We're already at the point that Shea can choose a deadline, suspect nothing.

In addition I have a couple points of clarification on the deadline rule.

1) The initial three weeks is not a deadline, but rather a limit on when the mod can impose a deadline.

2) You will not know THAT a deadline has been imposed, in addition to the not knowing when which the rule actually states. I thought this was apparent from the spirit of the rule, but I guess not.

3) The deadline is not based on mod whimsy, there is a specific activity formula in the rules which will trigger a deadline.

Thanks,
Shea.

We really don't know. It's basketball without a shot clock; I'm suggesting we put up a shot. We have a quarter of the town AWOL, do you think that will increase or decrease the chance of getting deadlined? (<-- rhetorical)

Suffice it to say I am concerned about the ability of the town to drag out day one another 3 weeks minimum (more like 4 or 5 with discussion) without getting hit with a deadline. If this doesn't bother you just a little bit, please try and look at the realities of the situation. We're already two days into the deadline-able period. We

could

have anywhere from minutes to weeks to come to a lynch or lack thereof. Do I think it's mere minutes away? Of course not, but that's sort of the point; we don't

know

, and what's wrong with lynching the scummiest-appearing player, with the largest wagon, in the face of a deadline? She's been given numerous opportunities to claim, she's rejected them so I'm not going to bother asking anymore. If I could hammer you, DGB, believe me when I say I would do so, with or without the blessing of the town. Your discouragement whether real or contrived, your refusal to claim, and your "lynch me and find out" attitude are just a few items on the list of things that bore me.

The town needs to stop with the scared, head in the sand, we can't do anything unless decided by everyone and signed in triplicate bullshit nonsense and make a play. If your vote is on someone and you haven't built a convincing case, you're suspect. Either make a case and push for a wagon or make with the DGB voting. In either case, do it quickly if you don't mind.

[DrippingGoofball]

If your vote is on someone and you haven't built a convincing case, you're suspect.

You'll find a few such on my present wagon.

I hope you guys have a more productive day tomorrow.

[MrBuddyLee]

DGB, the whole "giving up" act is lame. Who exactly are you talking to? I'm still interested in exploring all options, IH OGML and Elias are away. And only a few people are on your wagon. Your whole quitter thing seems insincere considering I don't know who you're accusing of failing this town right now.

So please be more specific about your displeasures. And if you're a power role, giving up early is extra lame.

[OhGodMyLife]

I'm at yos2's beach house for the weekend. I'll post when I get back, or maybe while I'm here if Ether physically prodding me doesn't stop.