Mini 644 - Meerkat Manor Mafia (Game Over!)

[wolframnhart]

/confirm

[wolframnhart]

vote strangercoug

for banning me many times on the You Are Banned forum thread

[wolframnhart]

see? I knew strangercoug was scum, only scum would vote for themselves

[wolframnhart]

Vote: MafiaMann

for putting the third vote on me in a random voting stage, which is something I frown upon.

Do you frown upon the fact he put a third vote on you? Or do you frown upon anyone putting a third vote on someone in the random voting stage?

[wolframnhart]

unvote

I think strangers vote on himself was takin out of context. Had it been later in the game, I would find it weird (especially if he was one of those stupid people that hammer themselves) but it was during random voting stage and it was probably just bad humor.

Vote mafiamann

for originally saying he would vote clock, then once muffinhead says "not voting in rv stage can be a scumtell" you vote strangercoug instead with no real reason (jokewise or serious) other then to apparently make muffin "happy"

[wolframnhart]

Right now im not voting anyone but clocks sensless accusatioins of me are ridculous.
Oh my god i put cougar on L-4 which is practically L-5 since one of the votes was his. Its a random vote its not a big deal and you seem to be trying to find anything you can to get people away from you.

It's not that you put him at L-4. It's that you told the town you would do one thing then went against it with ridiculous reasoning. It's that you were jumping onto a wagon without posting any reason and when asked why you did you simply say;
"I couldn't spell CLOCK."

This is a good argument.

Very True, this is a good argument, which is why i really don't buy the:

Im confused as to why my vote is oppurtunistic. I wasnt aware i didnt need to spell the name exactly a game i was in recently my vote didnt count because i spelled the name wrong. Why are you making a bigger deal over this than need be.

it's not hard to spell clock, and if you were confused how to spell the entire name you could have:
a)abreviated (Clock)
or
b)taken 10 seconds to go to page one and see player list and see his name there.

And it's not the fact hes making a big deal out of it, you just really haven't supplied an answer that has alleviated his suspicions.

[wolframnhart]

Ah sorry sorry I here, lots going on and I realize i need to keep up.

I'm going to

unvote Mafiamann

for now due to the fact that it seems to have been scum driven since clock turned to be a predator. I still don't quite like Mafia's play so far, but for now I am giving him the benefit of the doubt.

[wolframnhart]

Ah sorry sorry I here, lots going on and I realize i need to keep up.

I'm going to

unvote Mafiamann

for now due to the fact that it seems to have been scum driven since clock turned to be a predator. I still don't quite like Mafia's play so far, but for now I am giving him the benefit of the doubt.

Can you give any additional reasons as to why you think the wagon on MafiaMann is scum-driven?

Well the way I see it, I voted for mafiamann early on, due to his poor responses. I thought he had found scum, and when clock kept adding on it seemed like a really good case. Then a few people jumped on the mafia wagon (i can go into detail later on but right now this is just a quick post before work) and added to the argument. Then some got off the mafia wagon and clock turned into a predator that took out a replacement. Never even thought about predators myself, i was just worried about commandos, and now we have an SK type role too, and who knows how many there are in that group or in the commandos for that matter.

[wolframnhart]

Never even thought about predators myself, i was just worried about commandos, and now we have an SK type role too, and who knows how many there are in that group or in the commandos for that matter.

Uh... Wolf?

As the sun rises over the Kalahari, the Whiskers family has a busy day ahead. It will be rough foraging for millipedes and scorpions while the desert sun beats down on the defenseless meerkats. Even worse,

the meerkats constantly have to be on the lookout for vicious predators as well as the evil Commandoes

, a rival mob intent on taking over the burrow! But the Whiskers are strong and resilient. Stay alert.

Rishi directly told us we had predators to deal with. Are you trying to make us think you didn't know about predators so you could hide the fact that you're a predator?

I also think Rishi hinted to us that something could happen during the day...

It will be rough foraging for millipedes and scorpions

while the desert sun beats down

on the

defenseless

meerkats.

But

the Whiskers are strong and resilient.

Stay alert.

This tells me that during the day, we will be defenseless to attacks. However, we're strong and resilient. Maybe that was a hint to clock that if he picked the wrong meerkat to mess with, he'd be toast.

@Rhi
Yep, i completely miss took the quote by rishi. I thought there were just commandos that we had to look out for, and the part about the predators was just flavor, so my bad there.

[wolframnhart]

Nice catch there Ecto, i didn't even think that he had the person quoted wrong.

[wolframnhart]

Alright, let's do some loose theorizing here.

I dont think it is a far stretch to assume that Clock was working alone. (though I still say the possibility, however small, exists for 2 scum groups of 2) Regardless, another scum faction exists in the game and had no idea of Clock's alignment.

What would they do? I may be circling the WIFOM maelstrom and just may possibly fall in, but here goes:

They could assume Clock was town.
They might have gotten lucky and guessed him as a Predator.

I think the greater likelyhood is they would have thought him town. (as I did at one time)

So I think there are a couple of positions scum would try to occupy, depending upon whether MM is scum himself or not.

Let's say MM is town.

Early on in the wagon, scum might see a townie (Clock) attacking another townie (MM). At that time, one of the scum would be tempted to lend some early support to the wagon make sure it takes off. A researcher would comb this time frame for interactions.
Later in the wagon, if it looked like MM was going to be lynched for sure, if they had jumped on early, they would certainly be sitting securely there, and maybe even a little quiet about the whole thing now. If they had not voted against MM, in order to be active, they would probably be looking to toss in a few lines for the next day lynch by gently forwarding a case against someone else, or prepping for the Clock lynch if MM turned up town. (but not enough to derail the MM wagon)

Now, if we assume MM scum:

Early on, who knows what his partners would be doing.
Middle round, as the wagon builds, they might start getting nervous and feel obliged to defend MM, maybe subtly if they are feeling momentum going the wrong way. I believe this is also a good place to bus a partner if you can feel that the case is going to go through.
Late rounds, it is almost too late to bus, but scum might still do it, usually without advancing the case, just rehashing or rephrasing old arguments.

Now all of this seems to point to me wanting to lynch MM, because I think we could get some decent information if we knew his alignment. I hesitated to put forth that idea originally because, as you can see, the information would be dubious, unless he turns up scum. But there actually is a good and valid reason to lynch MM today, and that has to do with Clock turning up Predator.

If we assume Clock was a day SK, he had no idea of MM's alignment. You see, I was going to go back to my case against SC, because I moved off of it due to Clock's case against MM being a better one (IMO). SC's case is still pretty good.

However.

If I'm an SK, I scum hunt. I need them dead, the sooner, the better.

To me, that means that Clock's case isn't trash to be tossed aside. I think it was an honest one.

With that assessment:

vote MafiaMann

I think the case was a good one, and though the information gained may be too WIFOMish to use, I would still like to know whether Clock was right.

Ecto's post here brings up some good points. I agree that Clocks case shouldn't be completely given up because he turned out to be SK, and mafiamann's posts still don't make alot of sense even if you take away clocks posts about them That being said:

vote MafiaMann

[wolframnhart]

I'd think, flavor-wise, that the predator(s) are serial killer-like roles. Birds don't tend to work in groups. So bussing seesm out of the question. Looks like Clock was trying to set someone up and he underestimated the meerkat (It did make for an awesome deathscene!)

So looking for connections seems pointless. It doesn't clear MM either, not at all. Killing a townie

and

a competitor would be double profit for an SK.

Questions for you Cass. After Clock killed TheBoredWoodsman, you said looking for connections seems pointless, why? Wouldn't have analyzing the Clock/Woodsman death been more benificial to the town then glossing over it? You also said "Birds" instead of "bird" which to me sounds like you fully know Clock wasn't the only bird predator, slip of the tongue perhaps? For all we know there is a snake or a cat of some kind (i suck with animal names).

[wolframnhart]

Ok so you thought it was a flavor reason. But still why did you think it was better to not analyze the Clock/Woodman death?

But no nightkills seems to point to only one SK, possibly. Maybe. Though we should probably wait until the next day at least before we start speculating in earnest.

I like how here you lean towards there being only one Sk, then say possibly maybe, and then again say speculating on SK isn't important right now and to wait on it. I think speculating on who is SK should happen in the all around scum hunting because we WANT to find out who the Sks are and also who the evil commandos are.
As it is, no nightkill doesn't mean there is only one possible SK, it could just mean that the Sks can only day kill, or maybe someone was protected for all we know.

[wolframnhart]

Every death can lead us to scum. When a person hammers someone, they are usually looked at the next day unless they had absolute grand evidence against the person, or every single player wanted that particular person dead because he/she wasn't helpful or whatever (you get what i am saying there). If someone gets killed off at night people look at who they were voting for or had commented on earlier. When a person gets mislynched then usually the people on the wagon get examined for their motives.

I really can't see how you believe not looking at the Clock/Woodman death could lead to scum, especially since that death is the only one we have to go off of atm since there was no night kill.
If you think that we can't get any information off that death, what information DO you think we have available to us atm?

[wolframnhart]

whats a VI?

[wolframnhart]

Alright granted MM did do that, but that doesn't negate the fact that the Clock/Woodman death

could

be looked at because it could give us some kind of info on who scum could be. Same with MM's death (which i forgot to mention in my last post).

All I am saying is that by believing no info could be gotten from the deaths doesn't make sense to me.

[wolframnhart]

Alright while looking at mafiamanns death, I came across these quotes:

I'm crediting your vote to myself and clockwork, because scum can find it easy to hide behind a wave of people jumping on a bandwagon. You've already said yourself that you changed because of Clockwork.

Bogre tried to take credit for Ecto's vote against mafiamann, saying it was due to him and clock (when originally he said cass, then said he meant clock but switched the C's, made no sense there). This is a big reach imo to say Ecto did it because of HIM and clock, when really it was Clocks post against MM that made Ecto change his mind. Then he said "a wave of people" jumping on the band wagon, when really at the time the vote count was MafiaMann – 5 (wolframnhart, ClockworkRuse, muffinhead, Bogre, Ectomancer). Myself, Clock, and Muffin had been on their originally, so the "wave" of people had been Bogre himself, then Ecto after clocks post. This is Bogre trying to use wording to his advantage.

@Rhinox: Today is not the time to lynch lurkers, imo. Although your addressment of the weak claims of Ectomancer have been quite good, I must say I've never seen the point in 'I'm voting you lurker answer now'. One vote is not too much pressure on a lurker, just more of a placeholder, imo.

Ectomancer I believe is a good lynch for tomorrow. Look at how he jumps on Mafiamann's bandwagon with very little reasoning, then as soon as that is pointed out, he finds a weak, papery case to jump -off- the bandwagon and try to direct attention away from Mafman.

Then Bogre sets up Ecto for todays lynch, saying he would be the best bet and to not lynch lurkers, when thats exactly what he was doing. If you look at it, after page 8 when clock/woodman dies, Bogre hasn't posted, possibly wanting to distance himself from Clocks mistake.

FoS Bogre

[wolframnhart]

@Ecto
Sorry for the name mentioning, it wasn't supposed to be about you, I believe that you are trying very hard to scum hunt, i really liked the breakdown of if MM turned to be scum or town post that you did. I was just trying to convey what Bogre was saying is all.

[wolframnhart]

Jonathan, Bogre, Muffinhead - post something.

About Clock: he throws suspicion on MM, SC, Wolfram. Kind of buddies up to SC with opposing early L-3 wagons. Throws more suspicion on MM. Then denies he's suspicious of anyone. Builds some more suspicion on MM, subtly. Then votes him (finally!), saying he thought he was voting MM already... A bit later, he makes a large case agaist MM. Buddies a bit with Rhinox. Likes the suspicion on TPT too. Pushes MM to claim, and especially claim flavor... Throws lots of suspicion on Bogre and some on Jonathan. Does not suspect Ectomancer. More pushing MM for flavor. More trying to get MM lynched. More buddying with Rhinox. Says he 'sucks as scum' Some suspicion on Stranger, subtly. Says 'I'll have more information later'. Fake breadcrumbing? Setting up for a false-claim? Oddly, asks for name-counterclaim. Dies tragically.

Basically, lots of FoSes, but he only ever voted MM and pushed his lynch quite strongly. I can imagine he wanted to accuse him of killing woodsman, and after the flip find a new scapegoat for that one. Secretly lining up lynches or planning some kind of complicated false-claim.

Love this post. Glad the clock/woodman death was looked at closer because i just kept feeling like there was something there, but i guess not. It was just a set up job that went wrong for clock, and right for townies!

Also agree with Rhinox, self hammers don't help, if anything its more hurtful to the town and (in my opinion) kind of gives you crap rep, i know i wouldn't want to play with someone if they are just going to vote themselves out.

[wolframnhart]

Ah also, yea muffin, Bogre, and Jonathan need to post. Muffin said something about homework in his last post, but its past Wed when he said it would be done. Jonathan and Bogre haven't posted since the clock/woodman death, and neither gave reason to absence. I still like my case against Bogre though, but i am going to

FoS jonahan

as well. I don't want to vote either of them just yet until they respond, however if they don't respond soon I will upgrade Bogres Fos to a vote, under the assumption that I hit the nail on the head with my case.

btw, if my posts seem to be missing letters (especially the t's) my keyboard is starting to epicfail me and i keep having to go back and re read my posts to see if a t didnt go in LoL

[wolframnhart]

Ecto was agreeing with Clocks post about Mafiamann, and why not he did make a good case, plus mafiamann didn't really help himself out with the way he played. But I still don't think what ecto did was scummy, if anything I find the fact that you voted for mafia after two people FoSed you, with you basically just agreeing with clock when Mafiamann had 3 votes already on him at that time. When ecto does this because of the case that clock had presented, you jumped on him for it.

[wolframnhart]

Alright, let's do some loose theorizing here.

I dont think it is a far stretch to assume that Clock was working alone. (though I still say the possibility, however small, exists for 2 scum groups of 2) Regardless, another scum faction exists in the game and had no idea of Clock's alignment.

What would they do? I may be circling the WIFOM maelstrom and just may possibly fall in, but here goes:

They could assume Clock was town.
They might have gotten lucky and guessed him as a Predator.

I think the greater likelyhood is they would have thought him town. (as I did at one time)

So I think there are a couple of positions scum would try to occupy, depending upon whether MM is scum himself or not.

Let's say MM is town.

Early on in the wagon, scum might see a townie (Clock) attacking another townie (MM). At that time, one of the scum would be tempted to lend some early support to the wagon make sure it takes off. A researcher would comb this time frame for interactions.

Later in the wagon, if it looked like MM was going to be lynched for sure, if they had jumped on early, they would certainly be sitting securely there, and maybe even a little quiet about the whole thing now.

If they had not voted against MM, in order to be active, they would probably be looking to toss in a few lines for the next day lynch by gently forwarding a case against someone else

, or prepping for the Clock lynch if MM turned up town. (but not enough to derail the MM wagon)

Now, if we assume MM scum:

Early on, who knows what his partners would be doing.
Middle round, as the wagon builds, they might start getting nervous and feel obliged to defend MM, maybe subtly if they are feeling momentum going the wrong way. I believe this is also a good place to bus a partner if you can feel that the case is going to go through.
Late rounds, it is almost too late to bus, but scum might still do it, usually without advancing the case, just rehashing or rephrasing old arguments.

Now all of this seems to point to me wanting to lynch MM, because I think we could get some decent information if we knew his alignment. I hesitated to put forth that idea originally because, as you can see, the information would be dubious, unless he turns up scum. But there actually is a good and valid reason to lynch MM today, and that has to do with Clock turning up Predator.

If we assume Clock was a day SK, he had no idea of MM's alignment.

You see, I was going to go back to my case against SC, because I moved off of it due to Clock's case against MM being a better one (IMO). SC's case is still pretty good.

However.

If I'm an SK, I scum hunt. I need them dead, the sooner, the better.

To me, that means that Clock's case isn't trash to be tossed aside. I think it was an honest one.

With that assessment:

vote MafiaMann

I think the case was a good one, and though the information gained may be too WIFOMish to use, I would still like to know whether Clock was right.

The Bolded parts i did.

ok @Muffin
the points I think that were good with ectos posts I bolded.
the first bold, talking about how scum might be on the wagon, is general knowledge of what scums tend to do, but a good refresher.
the second point, about scum possibly voting MM later on and then casting a few lines about who to possibly lynch the next day, also a good point, one of the reasons I have Bogre in my sights because I believe that is what he did with ecto.
Third bold, i believe it to be true that if Clocks role is assumed to be a day SK, then yea he wouldn't know if MM had been a townie or a scum, which brings me to the Fourth Bold of his case shouldn't be discarded because as an SK role he would need to scum hunt just as much because thats the only way he could win.

[wolframnhart]

also, I am not satisfied with Bogres answer. I believe that jumping onto a staring wagon (it was at three votes when he was FoSed) while agreeing to one players post about another, and then attacking the next person who votes the same way also liking the post is very scummy, hence the bolded part about scum casing lines as to who to lynch the next day, which is what Bogre did to ecto.
therefore:

vote Bogre

[wolframnhart]

@curious

My case against Bogre is this. He voted for MM after three people already had, and after he was FoSed by two people for lurking, basically saying he agreed with Clocks case. Ecto did the same soon after. Bogre then jumped on Ecto for his vote, saying that ecto was using the "wave" of people voting for MM. He then says we shouldn't lynch lurkers and tried to set up Ecto as todays lynch at the same time. All this is very scummy in my eyes, especially the setting up of a lynch for the next day.

[wolframnhart]

I see the point about Coug, the day 1 vote that happened made people wonder, and now the mess up about the post, but so far i think he just goofed around (the wrong way i agree) with the vote thing and could have just made an honest mistake with the post thing. Cougs actions do not make me think scum as much as Bogres have.

[wolframnhart]

mod can we get a current vote count, and prods on Jonathen, Bogre, and Muffinman?

[wolframnhart]

@muffin

First, I think cougs posting was an honest mistake because I have done the same thing myself before. I think that coug is so far scum hunting, but maybe his overzealousness caused him to mis-read. If it happened multiple times then I would think he is trying to twist words to his advantage, but it was just once, an honest mistake which he already explained and apologized for.

Also I know both jonathan and rhinox have both just told you to do the same thing, but if you go back (and its not like its that many pages) you will see I already posted Bogres posts that made me believe he is scummy, I have explained them, twice, and also I had even answered this type of question for you already, which makes me believe you are either extremely not paying attention at all, or you are just trying to mix up a lil confusion to defend your partner, if bogre turns scum which i believe to be highly likely.

FoS Muffinhead

[wolframnhart]

@jonathan

Ok you came back and did a quick post about Muffins quote, but what else? Do you have an opinion on anyone else aside from saying there are good reasons for voting Bogre?

[wolframnhart]

No real read on wolframnhart, except that pushing for looking for connections seem pro-town to me. Wolf, what are the results of your findings so far?

My findings is my case against Bogre. I agreed with Cass that Clock had probably tried to use Woodsmans death to frame Mafiamann, but Woodsman proved to be a tough meekrat! After my read through though, Bogre did stand out the most to me because of his lynch setup for today, and the way he attacked Ecto for Ectos vote, when Bogre had done the same thing himself.

[wolframnhart]

Ok I am looking back at Muffin now because something hasn't sat right with me about his posts.

unvote

Major FoS Bogre

I still think Bogre is scum, but with him not posting atm I am going to focus my attention on who his scum partner might be.

After Muffin Fosed me and asked me what points I thought were good on one of Ectos posts, I posted it, along with reasons why they apply to why i thought Bogre was scum, and he said:

ok cheers wolf, i feel much better about you and to a certain extent ecto. Still would like to hear from him though.

I would also like to hear from bogre who he thinks is scum.

Then he posts:

Im trying to understand the bogre case and i would like to request quotes of his scumminess if you want me to even consider joining the wagon. I would like to hear from bogre defend him self again.
To be all honest i think im beginning to lose intrest in this game so I will try to keep up as much as posible and try not to e a lurker as I personally hate them

I shortened the post. In here he is trying to understand a case i have already explained for him, and yet he needs more explanation, and wants Bogre to defend himself (which is fair enough because Bogre should try and do this). He also goes along saying he is loosing interest in the game, but I believe that with asking Bogre in two posts to defend himself, and with this one also saying he is loosing interest, that it means his scum partner is not here to help out and Muffin is feeling sore from it.

Muffin hasn't really contributed much, in fact his disappearing act is similar to Bogres. I agree that the "to be honest" scum tell is a little lost on me because I have not seen it before, but that doesn't mean I will discount it.

Also:

But when you just dont have that intrest in the game its hard to find scum and help so if im lurking and looking scummy then I do apologies for letting the town down but it still means im here and I will help to the best that i can do.

If you aren't interested but in a way you are just enough that you want to win, but not really contribute and make posts infrequently, then be replaced. If we are right and Muffinhead is indeed scum, I would think he is trying hard to buy his scum partner Bogre sometime, because Muffin had also said he would post on Bogre but has yet to do that too.

Vote Muffinhead

[wolframnhart]

I like your post Vi, it was a very good replacement coming in and going through someone who is being looked at right now, along with general comments on everyone a this point.

]quote="Vi"]Make a choice. Who do you think is most worthy of a lynch right now? Vote them. If you decide someone else is more worthy of a lynch, tell why.[/quote]
Quick thing though, you wrote this part to Jon, but I also have to ask you this question because you say you are good with a muffin lynch, but havent voted him, you also find a few others scummy, but haven't FoSed or voted them. I'm not in a hurry to end this day by any means, but it seemed a lil contradictory to me.

[wolframnhart]

EBWOP Friggen dumb me cant even post quotes right....

Make a choice. Who do you think is most worthy of a lynch right now? Vote them. If you decide someone else is more worthy of a lynch, tell why.

Quick thing though, you wrote this part to Jon, but I also have to ask you this question because you say you are good with a muffin lynch, but havent voted him, you also find a few others scummy, but haven't FoSed or voted them. I'm not in a hurry to end this day by any means, but it seemed a lil contradictory to me.

[wolframnhart]

@Rhinox

@wolf: ckd and Vi are absolutely right and I was thining the exact same thing as I read down through the posts. Why would you have expected Vi to hammer muffin in his first post into the game? And why is is suspisious for him to not do so? I don't think Vi was being contradictory at all, and I think its unfair for you to accuse him so.

It's not that I was expecting Vi to hammer, it's the fact that he had gone ahead and said he was ok with muffin being lynched, made a case against muffin, implied a few others are scummy to him, then told Jon:

By not committing to a vote and position on who you want lynched, you're never taking a stand, but willing to do whatever won't get you in trouble.

So Vi was also not taking a stand on a vote on who he wanted lynched and I was just asking why because it seemed contradictory to me.
But Vi has already explained why he didn't vote on anyone just yet and I am satisfied with the answer.

[wolframnhart]

I am with StrangerCoug on this one. Muffin finally comes in and claims cop, the one role that would have probably saved him from getting lynched, and that Cass says we would feel stupid if we lynched him and he had a power role like cop, then Muffin says "yea i am cop, and cass is innocent" is way too coincidental to me, much like Ecto said.

[wolframnhart]

I still think that a Muffinhead lynch is the better route for today. Reason being that it was way too coincidental that he claimed cop, and said he investigated Cass on night one. To me this is his way of getting Cass on his side (assuming Cass is innocent and not his partner) and making everyone take a step back. Now if Muffin is indeed scum then lets think of it this way:
1) He has said Cass is innocent, so we leave both him and Cass alone and lynch someone else, they end up being townie, night comes, leaving 8 players alive.
2)Someone dies at night, Muffin says he investigated someone else that turns innocent, so we leave them, cass, and muffin alive (assuming cass is alive after morning comes) and we end up lynching someone else, we will say townie again, now there are 6 palyers alive.
3)Night comes and someone dies, then at this point muffin would just have to say "Oh got this guy he/she is mafia" we auto lynch, and it would be game over because that would leave 4 players alive and if we assume there are 2 mafia they cannot be lynched the next day.

Now I realize that Muffin could also be telling the truth. If he is townie then if there is a protective role Muffin would need protection mostly every night to investigate people. Thing is, with Muffins play up to the point of claiming cop, does anyone else believe him? I just can't get myself into the mind set that some one with a cop role would loose interest in a game. I think rhinox explained it best with "how are you going to convince us tomorrow to not lynch you if you are not nk'ed?" Muffin could very easily just lead us down the path of destruction with his claim, which is

exactly

what a person (named Genuine) did to us on my first newbie game i just recently finished. She claimed cop on day 3(we had gotten her partner on day 1) and said myself and another player (muerrto) were innocent. We auto believed her because of it and went along lynching the other players thinking we would hit scum. It was only by happenstance i caught her in a lie and we lynched her at Lylo. It is due to that game i cannot believe Muffins claim.

[wolframnhart]

If we bring into consideration the post about Yossarin ( i believe that was you rhinox) then why would his character be a cop?
1)roving means to wander, roam, etc. I don't think that seems cop like, seems more vigilante to me
2) his char got pups killed, was anti group (or town) not cop like
3) He was possibly trying to take over leadership in other groups, that seems more like what mafia try to do in these games.

if we go off of his character was like, it seems more to me that cop is really not the role for Yossarin/Muffin

[wolframnhart]

I'm beginning to be more inclined to think Jon is Muffins partner. Reason being I think that Muffin claiming Cop and saying Cass was innocent is true (the Cass part). More then likely this is Muffin trying to get Cass on his side (which worked for Cass did unvote) but it seems more like Muffin trying to get a lynch set up for today if he did end up getting lynched (which he did). The reason I say this is because Jon wouldn't touch the Muffinwagon. Maybe he did believe Muffin was cop, but, Jon got on Bogre's wagon and then when attention turned to Muffin he wouldn't touch it. Gave a few empty threats of a vote, but all in all he wouldn't go near Muffin. So Muffin claiming Cass innocent seems more like he was trying to get a "easy" lynch for Jon to get on today.

[wolframnhart]

Yes I'm not committing myself---my reasons for putting this vote is similar to those who have put the vote on me in Day 1. The second statement is true, but I don't see what's wrong with that. Also, I'm not helping a bandwagon---the bandwagon is on muffinhead, not bogre.

Ok so here Jon admits not commiting himself but also admits that he is not "helping a bandwagon" then says the bandwagon is on Muffinhead, not Bogre. So he is fine with voting the bandwagon against Bogre, but not muffinhead? That pinged my scumdar when I re read his posts.

Unvote

*jonathantan86 needs to explain why he only posts every two-to-five days. I really don't like it, considering he misses so much. Plus--

Besides I don't think that we would lynch someone without discussion. Town wouldn't put the vote count so close to 7, and scum (supposing SC is town) wouldn't want to do that either because it may make them look scummy.

FOS: StrangerCoug

Having said that, I think some mafia are on the wagon. Not because they want to see SC lynched, but because it may make them look good if SC dies and turns out to be part of the mafia.

This in particular bothers me. You're

banking that StrangerCoug is scum in order to look for other scum bussing him

in this post.

I gave my reasons for thinking that SC might be scum (basically hitting at those who had been voting for him, even though there's no threat), and then extrapolating from there what might be the case.

I don't post that regularly because I'm quite busy at the moment, but I will try to do so now.

Yes I'm not committing myself---my reasons for putting this vote is similar to those who have put the vote on me in Day 1. The second statement is true, but I don't see what's wrong with that. Also, I'm not helping a bandwagon---the bandwagon is on muffinhead, not bogre.

I'm not sure you realize what you're saying. By not committing to a vote and position on who you want lynched, you're never taking a stand, but willing to do whatever won't get you in trouble. Being able to vote people and cast suspicion on them without being held responsible is the kind of ability scum players dream of. And it seems to me that there's a double-bandwagon going on - one dominant one on muffinhead, and one on Bogre/me, the alleged scumpartner.
And rest assured, at the moment Bogre needs no more pressure votes.

Make a choice. Who do you think is most worthy of a lynch right now? Vote them. If you decide someone else is more worthy of a lynch, tell why.

I think muffinhead is, but I'll wait for him to claim.

You (vi/bogre) come second, but that's only because of bogre's previous actions (and to a lesser extent muffinhead defending him). I was hoping he could defend his statements, but that's kind of impossible now.

FOS: StrangerCoug

Having said that, I think some mafia are on the wagon. Not because they want to see SC lynched, but because it may make them look good if SC dies and turns out to be part of the mafia.

Red flag: You're effectively assuming StrangerCoug is scum (for reasons you've already mentioned) and saying there are already other scum on the wagon to bus him. Certainly not the conventional argument.
Red flag: Yet you only FoS StrangerCoug... is this perhaps to ensure you're not on the wagon? Or are you hinting that you have a scumbuddy on the wagon?
I don't know what to say about this other than that it feels very wrong.
(BTW, the wagon at this point is MafiaMann, Cass, Ectomancer, and Rhinox.)

I FoS because I wasn't quite sure. About hinting that I have a scumbuddy on the wagon, if that were true (and if I were scum) I wouldn't have wanted to draw attention to that; I could have just put suspicion on SC.

About asking what discussion is currently revolving around, I did post what I thought after that.

I think muffinhead is

[most worthy of a vote]

, but I'll wait for him to claim.

I should have asked earlier: Why do you think that?

Reasons: a spurious vote on Ectomancer and his "ignorance" of the case on bogre, and now his lurking (well, he has just come back to post).

Now here on the two Vi vs Jon posts we can see that Jon was becoming very suspicious in Vi's eyes, and was being called on it. Then Vi ends up dead. This may not seem like much, but when scum A gets lynched, and playerB who won't go near his bandwagon is being looked at hard by playerC, and then C ends up dead at night just seems too much like B getting rid of C to quiet C down. That was what I was trying to say earlier Rhinox, bu when your fiance is nagging your ear as you try to type you tend to hurry LoL. Anyways back on topic..

Vi's role could have been a power protective role, I don't know I didn't make this game. I would have hoped hat if it was a protective role something like "human shield" or "bus driver" would have been in quotes. babysitter just doesn't scream protective to me, probably was just flavor I don't know the show so i don't know if thats what Vi's char was or not. If she was protecting someone and ended up dead from it then that blows the second portion of my case against Jon out the window, but I still think the first part of my case holds true.

I'm willing to

Fos Jon

until he can defend against my case, and give good reason why he wouldn't go near the muffinhead wagon, but would jump on Bogre's.

[wolframnhart]

It's a pretty good case, but Im afraid that I really cant reply to a wall of text like that. Some things, of course are indefensible. You tend to waffle when town and you arent exactly you arent sure what you are doing. It happens.
A few things. I asked people to re-explain their cases after they decided Vi/Bogre was ok. It's not an unreasonable request. Later I did ask to keep him around for the following reasons.
2: I DO like Yosarian. He was my favorite. So I want him to be a good guy? Sue me.
3: I do think we are down to 1 scum. If that is right, every innocent result a scum cop gives has to be true. Since you dont know if he is scum or not, you can keep letting him tell you who is town. I've had it work before to narrow down targets.
4: Dont forget, he could have been cop.

Anyhow, line up anything else in sizable chunks. I can reply, but not to entire chapters.

I really am not liking this post for a couple of reasons:
1)To say that you want someone to be a good guy just because you like their character is not very helpful to the town, after all didn't Doopey turn out to be mafia godfather in a game? (Can't remember if that was said in this game or another i am in). If everyone said "Aww Doppey is so cute and stupid no way could he be town" that wouldn't help a bit.
2)Saying sue me seems a lil defensive.
3)I went along with a person that ended up being scum, regular scum not scum cop, because they claimed cop. Had we followed blindly (which we did until LYLO) we would have lost, and to have alot of innocent people killed just to narrow suspects doesn't really help anything.
4)Yes, he could have been a cop, but his attitude and posting didn't seem cop-like. The fact that he claimed cop after Cass said "what if he is" then claiming Cass innocent was just way too fishy to have been believed anyways.

[wolframnhart]

Reason I was looking at you first before the other people Jon is because as I sated, you have not really contributed to the game much, just kind of sat back and watched. Also the fact that as i already stated, you wouldn't touch the muffinhead wagon, but were all aboard the Bogre voting. You are right about one thing though, it wasn't much of a wagon when you voted, in fact after I looked at when you did vote it was just Cass because I had already unvoted Bogre. You then voted to "put pressure" on Bogre which makes no sense if there was only one person on Bogre at that time. All you have been doing this entire game is play it safe and in a small way stay under the radar. If you aren't commando I can see you being a SK role and seeing how your SK partner got killed you are trying to survive till the end.

[wolframnhart]

Right now I am torn. I still feel like jon is Muffins partner, I would even like to say my last post to him with his auto silence right now would mean i got him, but with the infrequency of his posts I can't say that is concrete. But with the way ectos posts have been lately I am really starting to wonder if i have the wrong person pegged.

[wolframnhart]

I still think that Jon is scum. Rhinox is right that he is lurking away the day while Ecto gets grilled. I would believe that he is either an SK or Commando, and which ever he is Ecto might be the other. Especially in this quote where ecto actually asked us to leave Muffin head alone:

Im a sucker for flavor. Yosarian has

strong

ties to the whiskers. he could be a cop. leave him be.

I'm going to

vote Jonathan

and hope he comes out of hiding soon. For now I will

Fos Ecto

[wolframnhart]

mod can we prod jon if possible? i think you do a 72 hour rule but with everything going on it might be a good idea to prod him.

[wolframnhart]

Fair enough Rishi.

[wolframnhart]

3: The slight possibility that wolf bussed muffin

No I didn't buss muffin. it is true I was pushing for a Bogre/Vi lynch because I thought I had found scum, after all Bogre did look very bad until Vi replaced him. But after Vi had explained himself and made it look like I pegged the wrong person, Muffin's posts really did not look townish to me. I placed my vote on him because I was truely unsatisfied with his posts. When he claimed I really did not like the cop claim because it was just too perfect, just the right thing that we might step back and leave him be for now, and after the newbie game that I had played (rishi modded it actually ) I just couldn't take that claim for face value. If he had turned townie cop I would have been a real moron but I stand by my vote, regardless of when I voted him, and am extremely happy with the result.

I have no questions about your play Rhinox. You have been scum hunting very hard. Your "walls of text" seem very thought out and well written to me, and I don't care about the length because it's not a bunch of jumbled crap, they have very good points in them.


Jonathan's lurking does bother me. His posts might seem more inactive townie like ecto said, but its the style of them that bugs me the most. To vote bogre when most had gotten off Bogre, giving him then two votes, to put "pressure" on him does not make sense to me. With how safe he has seemed to be playing it it's more like he is trying to coast along until the end.

[wolframnhart]

I'm going to put all my cards on the table. I am Mitch the Lookout, a cop. I'll post all the information here, for fear of a day kill. I did not dare hint at my role for the same reason.

Ectomancer (night 1) and Cass (night 2) are both innocent. The flavour text does not give me reason to doubt my sanity, and I don't think a game with this type of flavour will have cops other than the ordinary sane ones.

That leaves four people:
Rhinox
StrangerCoug
wolframnhart
curiouskarmadog

I was waiting for more conversation to tell us which one or two of the four are scum, and I think I have a good idea now. I can explain the reasons why I investigated Ectomancer and Cass if you want.

Alright Jon, you have claimed cop. I will believe this because as Rhinox has said, your lurking now makes a lil more sense, and because I am sure there is a cop role or sorts and no one else has counter claimed you. If you are scum fake claiming we will find out soon enough I am sure.

With the four people you say we have left that you have not yet investigated I can't see rhinox as a scum or SK, he seems far too townie to me. Strangercoug I am not sure on now. I defended his posting before, but that was possibly a mistake on my part with this new information. Curiouskarmadog has sniffed out scum in this game and seems townie to me, more so then strangercoug at least. For myself, i am Maybelline, a vanilla townie. Right now I am good with just

FoS StrangerCoug

until others chime in.

[wolframnhart]

LoL no congrats CKD, my big day isn't until March next year, and i already got the jitters myself

[wolframnhart]

Forgot to take the vote off

unvote

Only saying i believe his claim for now, as i said, he could be scum fake claiming but with no one countering I am inclined to believe it until it is proven wrong.

[wolframnhart]

It is interesting to note that jonathan83 didn't counterclaim when muffinhead claimed cop yesterday, but I'm not going to hold that against him as there may have been a reason not to do so.

I was thinking the same thing, expecially since Jon wrote his about Ecto, who he said he investigated night one:

Ectomancer said he had this strategy where a claimed cop shouldn't be lynched until LYLO or he turns in a guilty result, but this works only if there is only one scum left. It might have been a genuine mistake on his part. The lack of questions from him does not mean that he is not pursuing a line of investigation, I think, since there already were other people pressing muffinhead.

So I do not really think he is scum, at least not yet. However, I also think he should claim.

Cass hasn't been posting much, but I guess I could say the same for myself.

I think StrangerCoug deserves more scrutiny however, for his Day 1 actions at the very least.

[wolframnhart]

God i have to ge this keyboard fixed, t's keep not showing up.

[wolframnhart]

@Rhinox
1)because Muffin had said why he would be missing, Bogre and jon did not
2)I can believe Jons claim a lil more because we should have a cop role, and with no one counter claiming then it might be true. I only say might because he could be taking a gamble and claiming cop since no one countered Muffin, and if that is the case, it is a bold move. ATM i am worried that Jon could be false claiming. he was lurking throughout the game, making posts that really did not help much. With lurking being brought up for the umpteenth time, he finally claims cop, saying Cass is innocent and so is Ecto. Cass was already claimed innocent by Muffin, who turned to be scum. Ecto was getting pressured at the time, and jon saved him from a possible lynch. To me that means either Jon played it just right in getting Ecto and Cass on his side, or he is telling the complete truth.

[wolframnhart]

@Rhinox

Don't think it is C, but could be more A. Kind of alot to deal with if there were 2 more commandos and another SK. If there is no other SK, i would see 2 more commandos.

[wolframnhart]

Wolf, now that jon has claimed, what are your thoughts about him? About Coug..do you think he is mafia, SK, or town? Why or why not?

I think i already stated my thoughts on Jon, but i'll go again. He lurked through out the game. Now this could be taken as a cop who didn't want to stand out much, if that ends up being the case he did a good job. Second scenario is he is taking a big risk in claiming a cop role, but if anyone hasn't countered that by now, either they are holding onto it for tomorrow because they don't want to be auto killed when night comes so they can claim tomorrow. My main problem is he didn't counter Muffin when Muffin had claimed cop. Anyone could say he didn't want to counter at that time because he didn't want to be killed that night, and that could easily be the case.

Coug I am on fence about. I could see him being SK or Commando, that is if Jon is telling the truth. If jon isn't, then i would think one of the two people he said he investigated, Cass and Ecto, is his partner. Being that muffin said cass was innocent as well, i would go with Cass for just that reason.

[wolframnhart]

In one of the theme games i am in right now, people are getting very hot headed about flavor in the theme because it doesn't make sense to them either. The mods create the games and mix it up (char and flavor wise) so that it is not easy to figure out who is scum just by the char alone. My personal opinion is that trying to figure out the flavor doesn't do a lot when you look at the whole picture aside from waste alot of time and give scum a chance to sit back (i don't think that is happening here I am just saying in all games).

[wolframnhart]

Well first time getting to be scum, hopefully i will do better next time.

[wolframnhart]

three oh well

[wolframnhart]

Well i had fun, I agree with Curious though i was upset my own self at Muffins play. Maybe we didn't have to lynch him, it would have been better if he had just asked for a replacement instead of the way he had gone about playing that day, but that is just my opinion. So instead I tried to get him bussed to buy town cred, and when all of a sudden it seemed the lynch the next day was going to me instead of coug i didn't know what to do and i just gave up, not my proudest moment and i apologize o curious for that one, but i just didn't know what to do.

Hopefully I will do better next time, but good game all, especially jon for saving the town, next time i will go with curious instinct if i have him as a partner again.

[wolframnhart]

You are right, i should have made a case against Coug, but i figured after i had defended a few posts of his i wouldn't be able to go back and say they are scummy without looking hypocritical, but it is all a learning experience.