Mini 644 - Meerkat Manor Mafia (Game Over!)

[Rhinox]

As I said, I had class in five minutes. That is not enough time to give a detailed case on somebody, but that is enough time to become suspicious about somebody for something. I have a life, you know.

Easy there killer, I'm not questioning your other commitments. I'm saying there is a difference between expressing suspisions on someone vs. voting for someone (which may or may not be trying to start a bandwagon). IMO, at the start of the day, in your first post, if you want to vote for someone, you better back it up. The reason you gave was wrong. If you had class, what would be wrong with simply waiting until class was over to make a full post?

Also, you had time to respond to my post, yet you still haven't properly justified you vote on ecto. I know what I think about ecto right now, but I want to hear from you why you think he deserved your vote. And I don't care if you have to wait until after class to make that post. Take your time We all have lives, you know.

Addendum after reread of coug's posts: This is a gem of a quote if I ever found one...

Failure to explain your vote = opportunistic vote. Opportunistic vote = scummy. Scummy actions = vote on you. Therefore, failure to explain your vote = vote on you.

So everybody

but you

has to explain their votes?

Oh look, here's some more:

For a vote not to be opportunistic in my eyes, I need the reasons or where I can get them in front of my nose when I see the vote. It's me.

Now, don't get me wrong. As I'll explain later in this post, I don't think you're commando. Predator possibly, but there's no way to tell if there is even a predator remaining right now. What I think is that it is your personallity that is slightly abrasive and just comes off scummy, and possibly sometimes you don't think before you say stuff (like with your vote today on ecto, even though it directly conflicts with your already expressed definition of an opportunistic vote). But I do agree with you... ecto is looking more and more like a good scum candidate today.

=====================================================

@ecto: In my last post I asked you to clarify what your feelings towards muffin were exactly. Maybe it was lost in translation (I do tend to ramble sometimes). All I know is at one point you explicty said you didn't believe muffin's claim, and at another point you explicitly exclaimed "he might be a cop, let him be". Is that because you thought he was scum so you knew he could be lynched later, as you seem to imply in your last post? Also...

The one situation where you miight leave a claimed cop alive is if you know they are the final scum. You can believe every innocent the give, and if they give scum and you lynch town (except in LYLO), we win.

I disagree. How do you know the scum won't claim their scum partner(s) are innocent? Yes, if you know he's the

final

scum, then you know everyone else is pro-town, but if you know he's the

final

scum, then dare I say we would just lynch him?

Unless you're talking about when you already know there is only one scum remaining and you have a cop claim. Then sure, I could see a benefit in leaving the claimed cop alive for a while unless I truly thought he was the lying scum. However, this was definately not the case with muffin, and hence not a valid reason for leaving muffin alive.

Also, compare these 3 scenarios:
1:

StrangerCoug deserves votes piled on him for that self-vote. It's not helpful and this pressure might make him think twice before doing it again. He's not going to get quicklynched by town, and if scum piles on, Huzzah! We got one or two for tomorrow...
I still say we string him up. Somebody's gotta die today, we might as well do the volunteer

2:

If we assume Clock was a day SK, he had no idea of MM's alignment. You see, I was going to go back to my case against SC, because I moved off of it due to Clock's case against MM being a better one (IMO). SC's case is still pretty good.

However.

If I'm an SK, I scum hunt. I need them dead, the sooner, the better.

To me, that means that Clock's case isn't trash to be tossed aside. I think it was an honest one.

With that assessment:

vote MafiaMann

I think the case was a good one, and though the information gained may be too WIFOMish to use, I would still like to know whether Clock was right.

3:

Won't you feel stupid if you hammer and he turns out to be a cop? (For example, obv.) For that reason, I do ask you to wait until Muffin has been online at least (or gets replaced).

last night I targetted cass and got an innocent. But im not coming to any coclusions till I know that im sane.

Talk about this coincidence Muffinhead.

Yosarian was indeed troubled, but he always did what he thought best for town. I would consider him 'paranpoid', even when he turned out wrong.

I've argued before that the claimed cop should be lynched to save grief later.
I was scum that game.
I dont like the Yosarian/Cop pairing.

Never watched the show?Yosarian as cop makes no sense. Im not really believing the claim.

Im a sucker for flavor. Yosarian has

strong

ties to the whiskers. he could be a cop. leave him be.

I always liked Yosarian, and I believe that there is a situation whereby a scum cop must always tell the truth. I just have to remember what it is.

Hmm, what has been termed a terrible defense on my part is in actuality my display of the weakness of the case. Do not attack others for your failures, rather modify them, or own up to them.

In case 1, you wanted to lynch coug due to his self voting, because somebody had to die. This was a weaker reason than for lynching muffin.

In case 2, you voted to lynch MM based on the fact that clock would be legitamately scum hunting because he was an sk. The kicker is, you did this even though you 100% believed MM's claim. You said so, and used that fact to attack clock for searching for extra flavor on a townie claim. Another interesting point is that if you and clock were competing sk's, or in different scum factions, then you have just as much of a reason to try to get rid of him as he does to legitimately scum hunt. That would explain why you decided to "believe" MM's claim and attack clock - you saw a scum tell, but knew clock wasn't in your group, so you wanted to get rid of him. Then, after clock was dead, you still saw an opportunity to lynch MM even though you believed his claim.

Case 3 is obviously the muffin lynch. You argued that the case on muffin was weak, but after muffin claimed you didn't believe him. When it looked like no one was backing off, you changed and said he

could

be a cop and went back to claiming that the case on him was weak.

You're right, whether or not you defended muffin as your scum partner IS WIFOM, but that doesn't mean that gives you a free pass to do it without it being a legit possibility. But actually, whats more telling is that I found 2 examples of you endorsing a lynch based on weaker evidence than that on muffin, and 1 example of you endorsing a lynch of a player after a townie claim you believed. With muffin, there was a stronger case than either of the cases on coug on D1 or MM before his lynch, and muffin made a claim you did NOT believe, and yet this time, you were against the lynch. This is directly conflicting with your established play style in this game, and this is why I think you have a lot to answer for today.

======================================================

Regarding the potential bussing of muffin by at least 1 scum, I'm not sure I would definatively say there was so much momentum that a scum couldn't resist joining in. I just finished up a newbie game (I was scum) and my crappy IC scum partner basically suicided D1 because he played so badly. I never voted for him, and I went on to win the game as the sole remaining scum. So just because there is tremendous momentum on a scum lynch, that does not mean 100% that a scum partner is bussing.

However, that does not mean 100% that a scum partner is not bussing, either. That means, you're claiming that possibly at least 1 of me, coug, wolf, and ckd bussed muffin (we know it wasn't Vi). Obviously I know I didn't bus muffin. Both of wolf and coug were on muffin's wagon hard and early. After rereading, both wolf and coug were helpful in starting the momentum on muffin, not jumping on after the momentum started. So I don't think either of them were bussing (but they could be sk-predators) And CKD, its possible he bussed muffin, but he's been the best at finding scum this game. He outed clock, and he was also on muffin early for the honesty thing. Actually, all 4 of us reacted to muffin basically the same way at basically the same time. I don't think the play of wolf, coug, or CKD (or myself) even leaves open the possibility that one of them (us) were muffin's scum partner and bussed him, unless it was planned the night before.

So by process of elimination, I'm pretty confident the remaining commando(s) are in a group including ectomancer, jonathan, and cass, be it either 1 or 2 commandos remaining. If there is an SK that is simply not killing, then it really could be anybody, because like the town, they would be trying to eliminate the commandos as quickly as possible, but so they could step in and finish off the town after the commandos were gone. Although, in this game, I'm not sure that strategy would work for an sk. Rishi gave us flavor this morning that specifically the commandos came to make the kill on Vi. Presumedly, then, its either bastard modery, or if/when a predator makes a kill, it won't say it was done by the commandos. That means, later in the game if we kill off another commando, we will see if commando kills stop and predator kills fill in the void.


Sorry if my posts are getting TOO big... I have a habit of having a lot to say, and doing so with a lot of words. Let me know if its a big problem, and I'll try to make my posts more concise and to the point in the future. (In the game I just finished, large, thoughtful wall posts became not only accepted, but sort of expected... I know not everyone appreciates huge posts).

[Ectomancer]

It's a pretty good case, but Im afraid that I really cant reply to a wall of text like that. Some things, of course are indefensible. You tend to waffle when town and you arent exactly you arent sure what you are doing. It happens.
A few things. I asked people to re-explain their cases after they decided Vi/Bogre was ok. It's not an unreasonable request. Later I did ask to keep him around for the following reasons.
2: I DO like Yosarian. He was my favorite. So I want him to be a good guy? Sue me.
3: I do think we are down to 1 scum. If that is right, every innocent result a scum cop gives has to be true. Since you dont know if he is scum or not, you can keep letting him tell you who is town. I've had it work before to narrow down targets.
4: Dont forget, he could have been cop.

Anyhow, line up anything else in sizable chunks. I can reply, but not to entire chapters.

[StrangerCoug]

Rhinox, if you want to sue me for making hasty generalizations of Ectomancer, then go straight ahead, but as I said, I suspect him most.

[StrangerCoug]

EBWOP: For the record, part of my reasoning for my voting Ectomancer is how I don't like how he buddied up to muffinhead when he was about to be lynched. muffinhead flipped Commando, so that makes Ectomancer an object of suspicion.

His bloodthirstiness Day 1 when he tried to off me for voting myself is also something of concern to me, but not as big as siding up with muffinhead without a lot of reasoning.

[Rhinox]

ok ecto... here's 3 questions/comment based on your last answer. Answer as you see fit.

1:

I DO like Yosarian. He was my favorite. So I want him to be a good guy? Sue me.

There are 12 safe whisker names Rishi gave out in the intro post. All are "good guys" on the show, but scum use them to fake claim. Muffin wasn't Yosarian, he was Hannibal, a commando. Yosarian is still a good guy, just not present in the game aside from a safe name given to a scum. I find it suspect that you would want to believe someone based only on their name, knowing that all scum have safe names to claim with. And I'm not a big fan of just trying to brush it aside as unimportant with the "sue me" comment either...

2:

I do think we are down to 1 scum. If that is right, every innocent result a scum cop gives has to be true. Since you dont know if he is scum or not, you can keep letting him tell you who is town. I've had it work before to narrow down targets.

I'm still not following this. Before we lynched muffin, we weren't down to just one scum. He told us Cass was innocent, maybe (hypothetically) cass is his scum partner. If we'd blindly believe that to be true, we could lose. Could you please describe how you saw things going down if muffin was a scum cop, or possibly reference the game where you've used a scum cop to narrow down targets so I can understand what you're talking about?

3:

Dont forget, he could have been cop.

Yes, but you said you didn't believe his claim. On the contrary, you voted to lynch mafiamann despite believing his townie claim. Why, if you're town, would you vote to lynch after a claim you do believe, and would you ask us not to lynch after a claim you don't believe?

======================================================

Rhinox, if you want to sue me for making hasty generalizations of Ectomancer, then go straight ahead, but as I said, I suspect him most.

Wow, another "sue me" comment... So you suspect ecto most. Great, so do I. But you voted, and the only reason you gave why was wrong. I find it a bit hypocritcal that you can go after cass for voting opportunistically and you won't act in line with your own definition of an opportunistic vote. I'm also a bit concerned that you think its a problem for me to ask you to properly justify your vote.

EBWOP: For the record, part of my reasoning for my voting Ectomancer is how I don't like how he buddied up to muffinhead when he was about to be lynched. muffinhead flipped Commando, so that makes Ectomancer an object of suspicion.

His bloodthirstiness Day 1 when he tried to off me for voting myself is also something of concern to me, but not as big as siding up with muffinhead without a lot of reasoning.

Thanks. thats what I wanted to hear. What do you think about this in the context of not believing muffins claim, yet voting for mafiamann despite publically claiming the he did believe MM's claim?

And if you were offended by the obvious sarcasm towards you in my last post, I'm sorry, but I get a little steamed everytime someone uses the "I have a life" defense in internet games such as mafia. Because the obvious backhanded implication is that the rest of us don't have lives, even thought we're all here on the internet trying to have fun wasting time playing a game together. Don't assume you're the only person on the internet who secretely has a life away from the internet.

[StrangerCoug]

EBWOP: For the record, part of my reasoning for my voting Ectomancer is how I don't like how he buddied up to muffinhead when he was about to be lynched. muffinhead flipped Commando, so that makes Ectomancer an object of suspicion.

His bloodthirstiness Day 1 when he tried to off me for voting myself is also something of concern to me, but not as big as siding up with muffinhead without a lot of reasoning.

Thanks. thats what I wanted to hear. What do you think about this in the context of not believing muffins claim, yet voting for mafiamann despite publically claiming the he did believe MM's claim?

Voting somebody you believe makes no sense, I'll tell you that. I can't think of anything at the moment that you haven't said already, but I like this post of yours:

Case 3 is obviously the muffin lynch. You argued that the case on muffin was weak, but after muffin claimed you didn't believe him. When it looked like no one was backing off, you changed and said he

could

be a cop and went back to claiming that the case on him was weak.

You're right, whether or not you defended muffin as your scum partner IS WIFOM, but that doesn't mean that gives you a free pass to do it without it being a legit possibility. But actually, whats more telling is that I found 2 examples of you endorsing a lynch based on weaker evidence than that on muffin, and 1 example of you endorsing a lynch of a player after a townie claim you believed. With muffin, there was a stronger case than either of the cases on coug on D1 or MM before his lynch, and muffin made a claim you did NOT believe, and yet this time, you were against the lynch. This is directly conflicting with your established play style in this game, and this is why I think you have a lot to answer for today.

Basic reasonings for his votes:

StrangerCoug (that's me):

I voted myself and someone has to die

MafiaMann (1st vote):

ClockworkRuse has a better case on MafiaMann than he has against me (though he has me mistaken with who I think is The Pope's Tiara)

ClockworkRuse:

Either he doesn't know what the town PM's look like or he's rolefishing

MafiaMann (2nd vote):

As long as this post here is, it's not helping me decipher why this vote's here.

jonathan86:

According to him, jonathan86 "is 'helping' along a bandwagon, yet backpedaling in the middle of doing it."

Ectomancer never voted for muffinhead.

[wolframnhart]

It's a pretty good case, but Im afraid that I really cant reply to a wall of text like that. Some things, of course are indefensible. You tend to waffle when town and you arent exactly you arent sure what you are doing. It happens.
A few things. I asked people to re-explain their cases after they decided Vi/Bogre was ok. It's not an unreasonable request. Later I did ask to keep him around for the following reasons.
2: I DO like Yosarian. He was my favorite. So I want him to be a good guy? Sue me.
3: I do think we are down to 1 scum. If that is right, every innocent result a scum cop gives has to be true. Since you dont know if he is scum or not, you can keep letting him tell you who is town. I've had it work before to narrow down targets.
4: Dont forget, he could have been cop.

Anyhow, line up anything else in sizable chunks. I can reply, but not to entire chapters.

I really am not liking this post for a couple of reasons:
1)To say that you want someone to be a good guy just because you like their character is not very helpful to the town, after all didn't Doopey turn out to be mafia godfather in a game? (Can't remember if that was said in this game or another i am in). If everyone said "Aww Doppey is so cute and stupid no way could he be town" that wouldn't help a bit.
2)Saying sue me seems a lil defensive.
3)I went along with a person that ended up being scum, regular scum not scum cop, because they claimed cop. Had we followed blindly (which we did until LYLO) we would have lost, and to have alot of innocent people killed just to narrow suspects doesn't really help anything.
4)Yes, he could have been a cop, but his attitude and posting didn't seem cop-like. The fact that he claimed cop after Cass said "what if he is" then claiming Cass innocent was just way too fishy to have been believed anyways.

[jonathantan86]

Yes I'm not committing myself---my reasons for putting this vote is similar to those who have put the vote on me in Day 1. The second statement is true, but I don't see what's wrong with that. Also, I'm not helping a bandwagon---the bandwagon is on muffinhead, not bogre.

Ok so here Jon admits not commiting himself but also admits that he is not "helping a bandwagon" then says the bandwagon is on Muffinhead, not Bogre. So he is fine with voting the bandwagon against Bogre, but not muffinhead? That pinged my scumdar when I re read his posts.

I still think that the votes on bogre at that time do not constitute a bandwagon.

Now here on the two Vi vs Jon posts we can see that Jon was becoming very suspicious in Vi's eyes, and was being called on it. Then Vi ends up dead. This may not seem like much, but when scum A gets lynched, and playerB who won't go near his bandwagon is being looked at hard by playerC, and then C ends up dead at night just seems too much like B getting rid of C to quiet C down. That was what I was trying to say earlier Rhinox, bu when your fiance is nagging your ear as you try to type you tend to hurry LoL. Anyways back on topic..

Vi's role could have been a power protective role, I don't know I didn't make this game. I would have hoped hat if it was a protective role something like "human shield" or "bus driver" would have been in quotes. babysitter just doesn't scream protective to me, probably was just flavor I don't know the show so i don't know if thats what Vi's char was or not. If she was protecting someone and ended up dead from it then that blows the second portion of my case against Jon out the window, but I still think the first part of my case holds true.

Firstly, as you said, if vi's role was a bodyguard-like role, this part is not a case. If I remember correctly, vi was suspicious of other people too, not just me. So why point fingers at me straight away? Even if vi was suspicious of me the most, someone might have tried to frame me.

[wolframnhart]

Reason I was looking at you first before the other people Jon is because as I sated, you have not really contributed to the game much, just kind of sat back and watched. Also the fact that as i already stated, you wouldn't touch the muffinhead wagon, but were all aboard the Bogre voting. You are right about one thing though, it wasn't much of a wagon when you voted, in fact after I looked at when you did vote it was just Cass because I had already unvoted Bogre. You then voted to "put pressure" on Bogre which makes no sense if there was only one person on Bogre at that time. All you have been doing this entire game is play it safe and in a small way stay under the radar. If you aren't commando I can see you being a SK role and seeing how your SK partner got killed you are trying to survive till the end.

[Ectomancer]

@Rhinox -
1- he was my favorite. That's just the way it is. People do things for stranger reasons.
2 - The game was some time ago, and I had to recall how the scenario worked, hence my caveat that I needed to think about it. Turns out in that case we couldn't have used it. I didnt have the opportunity to explain myself because conversation was cut short. Coincidental?
3 - I didnt beleive his claim, but I can always be wrong. I was busy working out how to use his claim.

I dont believe as some of you do that scum should be lynched as soon as you find them. More can be gained by keeping them talking than by lynching them, if that is, you already know they are scum, and some of you were too damn certain, werent you? Best thing for a scum that has been found out is to shut up and not say a thing.

[curiouskarmadog]

I dont believe as some of you do that scum should be lynched as soon as you find them. More can be gained by keeping them talking than by lynching them, if that is, you already know they are scum, and some of you were too damn certain, werent you? Best thing for a scum that has been found out is to shut up and not say a thing.

interesting statement...are you saying you thought muffin was scum and you were trying to get more information?..or am I reading this incorrectly?

[Ectomancer]

I dont believe as some of you do that scum should be lynched as soon as you find them. More can be gained by keeping them talking than by lynching them, if that is, you already know they are scum, and some of you were too damn certain, werent you? Best thing for a scum that has been found out is to shut up and not say a thing.

interesting statement...are you saying you thought muffin was scum and you were trying to get more information?..or am I reading this incorrectly?

To make this perfectly clear: If you have 1 scum left in game, and Cop is claimed, anytime that claimed cop give an innocent result, you can believe it, regardless of their alignment. Either the cop will find a guilty, or more people get cleared.
Anyhow, that wasn't the case in this situation (which is why I said I had to think about it first)

[curiouskarmadog]

did you answer my question?

[Ectomancer]

did you answer my question?

I did answer your question. Muffin might have been scum, or he might not have been, that point is irrelevant. What is relevant is that there is a situation whereby you can get a good result from a claimed cop, regardless of their alignment. After I thought about it, I realized that we couldn't in this case because you have to know that there is only one scum.
We never quite got that far in the discussion though did we? Someone HAD to hammer. (Oh wow, it was you CKD)
I think it was clear that I was busy pursuing avenues of information. I think it equally clear that my line of investigation (though incorrect upon further thought) was cut short. At the time, you had no idea whether my line of investigation would yield results or not, and so you offed your scum mate before anything could possible be revealed. (Ironically enough, there was nothing, but you had to act anyhow)

vote CKD

[Rhinox]

More can be gained by keeping them talking than by lynching them, if that is, you already know they are scum, and some of you were too damn certain, werent you?

Who's more certain, those of us who wanted to lynch muffin because we

thought

we found scum, or you for wanting to leave muffin alive because you

knew

he was scum?

What is relevant is that there is a situation whereby you can get a good result from a claimed cop, regardless of their alignment.

After I thought about it, I realized that we couldn't in this case because you have to know that there is only one scum.

We never quite got that far in the discussion though did we?

Someone HAD to hammer. (Oh wow, it was you CKD)

I think it was clear that

I was busy pursuing avenues of information. I think it equally clear that my line of investigation (though incorrect upon further thought) was cut short.

At the time, you had no idea whether my line of investigation would yield results or not,

and so you offed your scum mate before anything could possible be revealed.

(Ironically enough, there was nothing, but you had to act anyhow)

vote CKD

I find it hard to believe that you mistakingly thought that muffin was the remaining scum. Thats not even something you have to take time to think about. We didn't kill commando yet, there's going to be at least two of them. I also find it suspect that you've voted for or wanted to lynch many other players (including mafiamann, even though you believed his claim) but when we find someone and you don't believe his claim and you're telling us now that you knew he was scum, you DON'T want to lynch him.

It was not clear at all that you were persuing a line of investigation. I had no idea what you were doing, besides telling us you didn't believe muffins claim, while arguing that the case on him was weak and telling us not to lynch him. You weren't asking any questions, or suggesting any alternatives, therefore you didn't get cut off - no, you had plenty of time to clarify what you were trying to acomplish (just read up and find one of my last couple posts and find where I quoted your 7 or so comments AFTER muffin claimed.

And whats with the "oh wow it was you ckd" comment? because from where I'm sitting, I see you going strong after the towns strongest scum catcher. I don't know, maybe ckd really DID bus muffin - after he temporarily unvoted, he made multiple posts asking muffin to post more and threatened to hammer. When my last scum partner was about to get lycnhed, I did the same thing, except a townie hammered before I got the chance to bus.

What I don't like is that ecto has been willing to throw his vote around, even to lynch someone like mafiamann when he didn't even think he was scum. But the first time we found scum, the strategy was to let him live. This is backassward to everything I thought I knew about mafia. Maybe its a strategy I'll learn to appreciate with experience, or maybe its the best thing ecto can come up with to save himself.

Meanwhile, jonathan hasn't said much today (suprise suprise), and cass has sort of slunk back into the shadows after making one early post. I would really like to hear everyone's opinion on ecto, and now ckd since thats where ecto is focusing, and I would expecially like to hear this from jonathan and cass.

[curiouskarmadog]

did you answer my question?

I did answer your question. Muffin might have been scum, or he might not have been, that point is irrelevant. What is relevant is that there is a situation whereby you can get a good result from a claimed cop, regardless of their alignment. After I thought about it, I realized that we couldn't in this case because you have to know that there is only one scum.
We never quite got that far in the discussion though did we? Someone HAD to hammer. (Oh wow, it was you CKD)
I think it was clear that I was busy pursuing avenues of information. I think it equally clear that my line of investigation (though incorrect upon further thought) was cut short. At the time, you had no idea whether my line of investigation would yield results or not, and so you offed your scum mate before anything could possible be revealed. (Ironically enough, there was nothing, but you had to act anyhow)

vote CKD

so i ask you a question and you OMGUS vote me? At first I was having trouble swallowing that you were scum because of your blatant defense of muffin...but then you came back with, "I thought he was scum, but wanted to get more information"..I wanted to make sure that was what you were saying so I asked you to clarify and then you attack me...that is indeed NOT what you were doing yesterday...

Im a sucker for flavor. Yosarian has

strong

ties to the whiskers. he could be a cop. leave him be.

Hmm, what has been termed a terrible defense on my part is in actuality my display of the weakness of the case. Do not attack others for your failures, rather modify them, or own up to them.

You were defending muffin WELL before he claimed cop.

Well, you do try Vi, I'll give you that. But listen, in my estimation, much of what you said could be explained by Muffin simply being lazy. I think this is why people are pushing the 'utility lynch' angle. (An angle I do not agree with without a deadline hanging over our heads) In my experience though, lazy is not equal to scum.
I do agree with you that at this point a replacement can be hoped for, but I would be content to see Muffin come back and apply himself.

There are several other quotes(this was just an example), people should go back and read for themselves. You not only defended muffin and (tried to coach him) but you tried to discredit those who were attacking him. And today, you are completely back tracking and changing your story.

Vote ecto…

nice try.

[Cass]

Sorry for not posting more in this game. I'll try to be better.

Ecto's defense is very weak and, I dunno... weasely? It makes no sense to me at all. Jonathan's defense is not convincing either. I agree that these two are the biggest suspects right now.

After rereading, I don't think Jonathan is Muffin's buddy (unless, maybe, if there were three commandoes). He

could

be a serial killer - but that's mostly a gut feeling. Besides, we don't know if there's even a predator still alive. If I had to vote now, I'd vote for Ecto.

[Ectomancer]

Sorry for not posting more in this game. I'll try to be better.

Ecto's defense is very weak and, I dunno... weasely? It makes no sense to me at all. Jonathan's defense is not convincing either. I agree that these two are the biggest suspects right now.

After rereading, I don't think Jonathan is Muffin's buddy (unless, maybe, if there were three commandoes). He

could

be a serial killer - but that's mostly a gut feeling. Besides, we don't know if there's even a predator still alive. If I had to vote now, I'd vote for Ecto.

My defense is neither weak nor weasley. What has occured is that there were some very ticked off people when I asked them to re-inforce their case on Muffin in light of the change of heart by town on Bogre. That didnt sit right with me. (They never did address this, but this furor is drowning that out. They act like Muffin turning up scum changes the fundamental arguement. It doesn't)
The discussion

was indeed

cut off by CKD's hammer unjustifiably. Can he explain why?

Interesting that you claim that I am targeting the toughest scum hunter, when that person is ME. Im the one questioning cases without taking shit for granted. IM the one who smelled Clock's mistake as scum, and I dare you to suggest I was his partner. Even with Muffin turning scum I was STILL the person digging hard at the rock to make sure we had the right one.
You have a very hard time proving to anyone that I havent been scum hunting Rhinox. Also, for town members, even if you feel like you would vote for me, you are helping out scum by actually stating it. Let them wonder until (if ) you hammer me.

Let me say one more thing, only one of you is likely scum. The other need to pull their heads out and look to see who is tunnel visioning and cutting off discussion with hammers.

[jonathantan86]

I'm almost leaning towards leaving him alive one more night to see if he can give us one more investigation "result" tomorrow, and then policy lynching for the information we get from the two results (presumedly, 2 confirmed townies). And, if he can investigate scum tonight, that might just save his life.

Rhinox here thinks that the idea of leaving muffinhead alive for one more night has some merit.

It might be that ectomancer was trying to keep muffinhead around for a bit more to try to get more information from him, without trying to be too "noticeable". And so he's suspicious of ckd because he "cut it short" before muffinhead could say any more.

[curiouskarmadog]

ECTO you seem to completely be overlooking this post...is that on purpose or did you just over look it.

I am going to go ahead and

unvote

(for now)...

Vi, I am not sure why you are asking "is it worth keeping a non-helpful townie around"...a townie is a townie, I am not about to lynch someone because I think they are just unhelpful..I will lynch someone who i think is scummy...AND if he is telling the truth he might be a "non-helpful" townie that has a cop role.

Muffin, at this point, i want a PbP breakdown...a sentence or two will do..but I want your opinion on everyone...quit lurking, or I will return my vote.

I unvoted when he was at -1....I gave him time to provide insight...when he DIRECTLY avoided this question (his next post avoided it) and continued lurking I thought it was quite scummy...he obviously wasnt going to provide any additional information....and if I remember right..all the time you were defending him...

now you are trying to spin it like you were scum hunting when what you were really doing was trying to get muffin off the hook...nice.

you are scum.

[Rhinox]

My defense is neither weak nor weasley. What has occured is that there were some very ticked off people when I asked them to re-inforce their case on Muffin in light of the change of heart by town on Bogre. That didnt sit right with me. (They never did address this, but this furor is drowning that out. They act like Muffin turning up scum changes the fundamental arguement. It doesn't)
The discussion was indeed cut off by CKD's hammer unjustifiably. Can he explain why?

I think you overstate the situation. I wasn't "ticked off" and I'm not sure anybody else was either. You also seem to imply that the only case against muffin being scum was that he was bogre's/vi's scum partner. That has been refuted and proven outright wrong. We all did re-inforce our positions on muffin, and added to it when muffin started saying things to point to him being scum. However, the outcome you aparently wanted - for us to believe there was no case - was not the outcome we used the facts to deduce. Tell me again, who's acting "ticked off"?

And maybe I'll believe that CKD cut off conversation with hammering, if you can first show me that there was some conversation you were trying to communicate. I didn't see you suggesting alternative routes of focus, I didn't see you asking muffin any questions. Of course, you'll say that's because ckd hammered and you got cut off. But I've read through your posts many times - what stays with me is that even in your last post before muffin was lynched, you still claim that the case on muffin was weak. Thats not something I expect to hear from someone who thinks the target is scum, but wants to keep them around for information. And all I see you doing today is twisting the situation that a scum was outed and lynched to be ultimately worse for the town than if we'd have let him live - and you have shown me no good reason to believe in that philosophy.

Interesting that you claim that I am targeting the toughest scum hunter, when that person is ME. Im the one questioning cases without taking shit for granted. IM the one who smelled Clock's mistake as scum, and I dare you to suggest I was his partner. Even with Muffin turning scum I was STILL the person digging hard at the rock to make sure we had the right one.
You have a very hard time proving to anyone that I havent been scum hunting Rhinox. Also, for town members, even if you feel like you would vote for me, you are helping out scum by actually stating it. Let them wonder until (if ) you hammer me.

I meant to say "scum catcher", but whatever. You're defending things I never even attacked you for here. Paranoid much? I never said nor implied you weren't scum hunting, and I never said nor implied that you were clocks predator partner. However you did. Twice. First, after clock died, you posted that we would have to decide whether or not you were trying to bus clock, and then again in this post you dare me to accuse you of being his partner... why? Is there some reason I should believe we have 2 scum groups of 2 and that you might be clocks partner? Up until now, I've assumed that the predators were individual and separate sk's, be it that we have 1 or 2. The only thing to even make me remotely think you are a predator scum pair with clock now is your obsessive concern over being linked to clock. And believe me, that possibility it not even remotely the motivation behind my current line of questioning towards you.

Let me say one more thing, only one of you is likely scum. The other need to pull their heads out and look to see who is tunnel visioning and cutting off discussion with hammers.

OH right, now I have confirmation bias. I guess that means I should stop questioning you now for information. I guess that means I'm already convinced you're scum even though you haven't recieved my vote yet. I guess that means asking for input from jonathan and cass and everyone else was just for show then. puh-leeze. You must have known the risk when defending muffin that you would be under heavy scrutiny if we lynched him and he was scum - even if you're town. You're responses seem more in annoyance that

we

have the audacity to question

you

.

Also, dare I call this a form of a false dilemna? Maybe nobody has confirmation bias and you just don't like being the center of attention. maybe nobody is cutting off discussion with hammers and you're just doing all you can to get ckd lynched.

==================================================================

Rhinox here thinks that the idea of leaving muffinhead alive for one more night has some merit.

It might be that ectomancer was trying to keep muffinhead around for a bit more to try to get more information from him, without trying to be too "noticeable". And so he's suspicious of ckd because he "cut it short" before muffinhead could say any more.

Yes that is true, but I was also up in the air about it. I was steadfast with my vote however, and muffin was scum. I think I made the right call. I also wasn't the only player voting for muffin who was humoring the idea of letting muffin live.

Regarding your second paragraph, thats a pretty good summary of whats going down, but whats missing is your thoughts. Do you think ecto is on to something by attacking CKD. Do you think its probably ecto is scum based on yesterday's actions and today's comments. Do you think we're looking in the entire wrong direction and neither are scum? Do you have an actual opinion to add, for once.

==================================================================

ECTO you seem to completely be overlooking this post...is that on purpose or did you just over look it.

I was also going to point out this post until ckd brought it up. CKD looks to be intentionally delaying the lynch for more information. not trying to cut muffin off.

you are scum.

A bold and risky statement, and one I'm getting closer to believing. But I'm not ready to vote just yet. Other players still need to weigh in with opinions on the subject.

[StrangerCoug]

you are scum.

A bold and risky statement, and one I'm getting closer to believing. But I'm not ready to vote just yet. Other players still need to weigh in with opinions on the subject.

I agree, but I currently have no good reason to doubt this statement. It is something risky to say, but the fact that he backs this up is making me debate whether it's even FoS-worthy, even if Ectomancer flips town. I do want to look at this later, though.

[curiouskarmadog]

you are scum.

A bold and risky statement, and one I'm getting closer to believing. But I'm not ready to vote just yet. Other players still need to weigh in with opinions on the subject.

I agree, but I currently have no good reason to doubt this statement. It is something risky to say, but the fact that he backs this up is making me debate whether it's even FoS-worthy, even if Ectomancer flips town. I do want to look at this later, though.

whoa what?....jesus, both Ecto and Coug make my alarms go off..

you think me calling Ecto scum could be FoS worthy? Why is that?

Vote: Ectomancer

for defending muffinhead solely on flavor.

Please explain how me calling Ecto scum and your above post are any different? jesus, this feels like someone setting up for a lynch tomorrow..."you want to look at this later"..when? later today? Tomorrow?

Christ...

unvote

for now...

if it is not obvious.

FoS both Coug and Ecto

waiting for posts from both.

[StrangerCoug]

curiouskarmadog, saying "you are scum" without any qualifiers can be taken a number of ways. You could be cop with a guilty, you could be scum yourself attempting a bus, or you could have a confirmation bias. I'm not implying that you have to be one of those three things; I'm just saying they're possibilities, and I am not attempting to rule out anything other than them. The reason whether I'm not sure if it's worthy of suspicion in this context is because you back your suspicion up, and the way you did so is fine by me.

By "later" I mean when I do my reread in day 3. I currently have good reason to believe you are town. Yes, I'll look at that post, and what I'll think of it will be dependent on how Ectomancer flips, but I'm reminding myself to look at it because I think it is noteworthy. In my opinion, not taking a stance on or being unsure how to take something but saying it is of note is not an attempt to incriminate the person that made the statement. I understand how it can be taken as fence sitting, but that's the only thing I see wrong with such a statement.

My vote was made in haste, and the reasoning for it has been proven wrong. However, because it has been proven wrong by mentioning a number of other scummy things Ectomancer did and he did defend muffinhead in an attempt to stall his lynch, I have allowed it to stand. I don't understand how you're taking your calling Ectomancer scum and my voting Ectomancer for defending muffinhead solely on flavor (which, as I said, has been proven wrong) as essentially one and the same. Why are you bringing up my vote in this context, and why especially are you comparing it to one of your own posts?

[curiouskarmadog]

When anyone places a vote on someone..it is essentially saying "I think you are scum"....when I state "you are scum"..it is obviously my opinion, given the rest of the post before it. I did have "qualifers" (see the entire day). It wasnt like I came out of nowhere and said "you are scum" like you are implying...

my problem with your statement implies that you want us to think that you are contemplating FoSing my statement a.) without taking any of my other posts (to include the rest of the post that "you are scum" was in) into consideration and b.) implying that you are doing anything differently.

How is my "you are scum" statement combined with my last 3-5 posts worse (and more FoS worthy) than you hasty vote with a one line case at the beginning of the day? I find double standards scummy.

Then to say you will review it later, makes me wonder about Ecto's alignment...or at least your knowledge of his alignment (meaning, it almost appears you know he will flip town).