Mini 619 - Ramen Mafia (Over!)

[charter]

No, but as far as I can tell, we don't have any confirmed townies. So this would mean that unconfirmed ones would have to make it and agree upon it. I don't think fakeclaiming is going to be a good idea today, because once someone says they were just lying to try and catch scum, I don't think we'd have any choice but to lynch them.

[ClockworkRuse]

We could have done a number of things.

To be truly random, we could have dice decide the order of the claims. To be honest, we still can and I would prefer it be done.

I see what you mean as to WK being not being clear, but with the information given it's more likely than not in my opinion.

[strife220]

Lying about your role is a great way to get yourself lynched. Very dangerous unless the plan is near bullet-proof and town will understand.

[ClockworkRuse]

Lying about your role is a great way to get yourself lynched. Very dangerous unless the plan is near bullet-proof and town will understand.

Hence why I didn't do it.

I was thinking that the next time this situation arises that I could try to add the rule that if you are going to CC to have to counter claimer say 'I counter-claim, repost your flavor/role' without adding what the real flavor is or anything of the sort.

Thinking about it later, it's a flawed and easy for scum to control which is never good.

[sthar8]

Clockwork:

For face value, Sthar8's logic is pretty solid.

That's all I've got to say about that.

This was my way of saying "I told you so, and you should have gone with the logic" to strife. This should have been obvious since his next line from that post basically says "but I think we should ignore the logic here and go with gut."
Second, strife was the one speculating about fake claims, and trying to outguess the mod. In fact, I've raised that as a point against him already, so I think you can see what my stance is on the subject. I have not defended against any accusations from you, mostly because you haven't made any against me. In fact, the reason you might see buddying between strife and I is that you've

repeatedly misattributed my statements to him throughout this game

. I wonder if you hope to gain some kind of advantage from this, or if you need to be reading a little more closely, as the last time I consistently agreed with strife was on Day 1, and even that was not across the board (for example, our opinions on Oman were markedly different).

Third, I

proposed

a list, then asked for discussion on it. If anyone had proposed any changes, we could have agreed on them, but it seems everyone liked my first draft. Your suggestion that scum would be able to manipulate the list to some form of advantage is insulting to the town, since scum are a small minority at this point. I'd rather assume that at least

some

of the pro-town players have brains

somewhere

inside their skulls. If the scum are as good and the town are as stupid as you're trying to make them out to be, then we've already lost this game.

I am not cleared, and have never claimed to be cleared. In fact, as of this post we have only two cleared players: Oman and Liam. Being confirmed is not a prerequisite for acceptance of any argument or claim. The standard we use is logical validity and soundness or cogency, because even a confirmed pro-town player can propose arguments with horrible, fatal flaws, as I believe to be the case with strife's thoughts yesterday.

My intent behind the list was to take into account soft-claims and scumminess to create an order that was dangerous for false claims. This is

impossible

with dice, and I've stated repeatedly that we should try to get as much benefit from the massclaim as possible.

For example, strife soft-claimed first. This suggests to me that he has a roleclaim ready, since he could have been forced to claim right away because of his risky (and poorly reasoned) move. If he's scum, having him claim last maximizes the chances that his claim of choice will be taken already, forcing him to counter, or lose the benefit of any breadcrumbing he's done and make up a new claim on the spot. If he counters, we can test the powers or lynch the scummiest one, and if he makes up a new claim it will not be as thought out as his original, which leaves more room for scummy errors.

Finally, what you're saying with your claim is that you could have countered Muerrto on flavor and chose not to? That's two people who just chose to let Muerrto off the hook with a claim they knew was false (points to BB for stating strong suspicions and lynch preference, even after he had unvoted, though).

Your play over the course of the last two days has served only the goal of attempting to confuse and scare the town. In addition you dropped your Muerrto vote as soon as it looked like others might be unwilling to lynch him, without giving any reasoning other than "if you guys don't want to lynch him, I won't vote for him." I'm happy with you at the top of my scumlist.

Vote: ClockworkRuse

Note that I do not advocate lynching until after the claims have been completed an analyzed fully.

Darla: I would guess that four scum is a bit powerful, but it could account for why the town has so many strong roles. There are alternative explanations that work, though, so I'm going to assume that there are one or two scum left. I think five would have been too many, since it would have created the potential for a Day 2 town loss (mislynch, sk kill, mafia kill, JOAT miskills to result in 4 mafia out of 8 players, mafia outnumber town and win).

WK: I'm okay with the edit to the list, and food seems excited to claim, so we might at well let him do so sooner. My placement of myself on the list was arbitrary and indended as a compromise to anyone who was suspicious of me. I don't actually care when

I

claim, it's everyone else I'm concerned with.

BB: You are up next.

[strife220]

Sthar8: You say you placed me last because I was the first to soft-claim. However, BB soft-claimed second and Food soft-claim third. Why did you put BB second on the list to claim?



I don't think CWR is claiming a role that should have known Muerrto's claim was a lie. I think he's just doing a poor job of saying that he's vanilla... or something.
WR? I and apparently others are still confused about this:

I am Plain, Dry Ramen which is the actual vanilla flavor of the game.

Saying dry is the Actual vanilla flavor implies that Chicken cannot possibly be another vanilla role. Please clarify, and tell us what your own role led you to think about Muerrto's claim.

[sthar8]

The logic I applied to your case does not hold when applied to BB, as it is specific to being the

first

to soft claim. Being second, he could demand that you claim first if pressed, and could thus buy himself some time to think up a proper claim. If you were not pressed, he gains the breadcrumbing advantage to any future claims. I felt that the significant advantage of having scummy players claim without the additional setup info of other claims was outweighed in your case and food's by the very specific nature of your claims. In BB's case, I felt it benefited the town most to give him the chance to claim something improbable or impossible in this setup, thus nailing him as scum. Also, you have been acting much less like scum than BB is, meaning either that you are town, or that a claim slip is less likely because you are (mostly) playing well.

[strife220]

I'm not completely sure I follow your reasoning, but I'll wait until after all role-claims before looking harder into this issue.

[sthar8]

Fair enough, and good idea.

[windkirby]

CR - I simply felt that sthar has been pretty pro-town throughout the game, so I think he's less likely to be scum than, say food. So he might as well claim after food does since he's less likely in my eyes to require a counterclaim which would benefit from claiming later.

[melikefood]

I'll wait for the rest of the claims.
I'm fine with the order of the claims, if I came off as jumpy to claim than that's a mistake on my part.

As I had stated on my soft claim, I had a puzzle that I wished to post and I was eager to share that. (Got the mod's OK too.)

But now I don't think I'll post it yet until my actual claim, where I'll just solve it as my claim.

[Beyond_Birthday]

CWR's claim for townie actually makes sense.
*All face value.*

I know about the "*" comment, just saying. Seems like people over read everything I type, because catching scum is more important than watching words as a town sided player. *Granted, I should probably avoid something that seems like a slip.*


I am chicken ramen, which is a Jailer type power role. Basically, the chicken noodle soup makes people invulnerable, but takes up all there time for the night. So, yeah.


Anyway, I gave my deliciousness to Sthar8 N1 and N2, because she seemed significantly town sided to me, and gave no indication of a power role over day 1 and 2. Night 2, however, I intitially planned on giving it to Strife, but when she (he?) soft claimed, I decided that it was fine to go with Sthar8 again, as she (he?) did not seem to notice/care about being jailed(given soup, same thing).

And guys, I know I was up next, but I told you that if CWR didn't post like an hour after my last, I so couldn't get to this game until last night or today. *AND I'm here!!*

Anyway, next.

[ClockworkRuse]

Clockwork:

For face value, Sthar8's logic is pretty solid.

That's all I've got to say about that.

This was my way of saying "I told you so, and you should have gone with the logic" to strife. This should have been obvious since his next line from that post basically says "but I think we should ignore the logic here and go with gut."
Second, strife was the one speculating about fake claims, and trying to outguess the mod. In fact, I've raised that as a point against him already, so I think you can see what my stance is on the subject. I have not defended against any accusations from you, mostly because you haven't made any against me. In fact, the reason you might see buddying between strife and I is that you've

repeatedly misattributed my statements to him throughout this game

. I wonder if you hope to gain some kind of advantage from this, or if you need to be reading a little more closely, as the last time I consistently agreed with strife was on Day 1, and even that was not across the board (for example, our opinions on Oman were markedly different).

I don't understand what possible advantage I could have from mistaking your names. Most of the time, it's just a misread and me failing to check my posts. If you'll notice, I often fix that mistake when I make.

I'll force myself to make sure that I don't mix the two of you up from now on.

Third, I

proposed

a list, then asked for discussion on it. If anyone had proposed any changes, we could have agreed on them, but it seems everyone liked my first draft. Your suggestion that scum would be able to manipulate the list to some form of advantage is insulting to the town, since scum are a small minority at this point. I'd rather assume that at least

some

of the pro-town players have brains

somewhere

inside their skulls. If the scum are as good and the town are as stupid as you're trying to make them out to be, then we've already lost this game.

I don't like this post at all. Explain to me how it isn't to the benefit of the town to all assume that the scum are going to try to manipulate us and work in ways that it isn't possible to do that.

[quote="sthar8"
I am not cleared, and have never claimed to be cleared. In fact, as of this post we have only two cleared players: Oman and Liam. Being confirmed is not a prerequisite for acceptance of any argument or claim. The standard we use is logical validity and soundness or cogency, because even a confirmed pro-town player can propose arguments with horrible, fatal flaws, as I believe to be the case with strife's thoughts yesterday.[/quote]

Completely agreed, hence why my argument about you picking the list was that you weren't cleared.

My intent behind the list was to take into account soft-claims and scumminess to create an order that was dangerous for false claims. This is

impossible

with dice, and I've stated repeatedly that we should try to get as much benefit from the massclaim as possible.

For example, strife soft-claimed first. This suggests to me that he has a roleclaim ready, since he could have been forced to claim right away because of his risky (and poorly reasoned) move. If he's scum, having him claim last maximizes the chances that his claim of choice will be taken already, forcing him to counter, or lose the benefit of any breadcrumbing he's done and make up a new claim on the spot. If he counters, we can test the powers or lynch the scummiest one, and if he makes up a new claim it will not be as thought out as his original, which leaves more room for scummy errors.

Alright, I like this reasoning. I just don't like how the entire town didn't take much time to question anything about the list. I

hate

leaving any possibility of manipulation.

Finally, what you're saying with your claim is that you could have countered Muerrto on flavor and chose not to? That's two people who just chose to let Muerrto off the hook with a claim they knew was false (points to BB for stating strong suspicions and lynch preference, even after he had unvoted, though).

If you'll read back, you'll notice that I didn't even pay much attention to the claim at all as I was still wondering why the doctor was still alive, if you recall. I admit that I should have counter claimed that role however, it's unlikely that I'm the only Vanilla Townie here. So I'm not the only one who made the mistake.

Your play over the course of the last two days has served only the goal of attempting to confuse and scare the town. In addition you dropped your Muerrto vote as soon as it looked like others might be unwilling to lynch him, without giving any reasoning other than "if you guys don't want to lynch him, I won't vote for him." I'm happy with you at the top of my scumlist.

Vote: ClockworkRuse

Note that I do not advocate lynching until after the claims have been completed an analyzed fully.

I don't feel that this vote isn't justified. You have some good points about me and I've been having some really bad play here. But tell me this, if my claim stands to be true are you going to leave your vote on me?

And for the record, I didn't just say 'If you guys don't want to lynch him..." I did unvote because I saw your reasoning and weighed it against my own. Guess who's made more sense when I sat there and thought about it?

[ClockworkRuse]

Sthar8: You say you placed me last because I was the first to soft-claim. However, BB soft-claimed second and Food soft-claim third. Why did you put BB second on the list to claim?



I don't think CWR is claiming a role that should have known Muerrto's claim was a lie. I think he's just doing a poor job of saying that he's vanilla... or something.
WR? I and apparently others are still confused about this:

I am Plain, Dry Ramen which is the actual vanilla flavor of the game.

Saying dry is the Actual vanilla flavor implies that Chicken cannot possibly be another vanilla role. Please clarify, and tell us what your own role led you to think about Muerrto's claim.

Plain, Dry Ramen is the Vanilla Townie role of the game, not Chicken. [As BB just showed you.]

I should have counter-claimed him but as you'll notice I didn't. Please see the responses to that in the above post.

[sthar8]

BB: Thank you. It's kind of funny that you jailed me, for reasons that I will explain when I claim. I'm a he, by the way

CWR: I don't know what advantage that could have, either. Besides claiming that we are buddying up by misattributing a consistent statement by me to him, and using that to show that we are in agreement.

We

should

assume that the scum are trying to trip us up, but it seems like you are saying that we shouldn't even

try

to reach majority consensus on any point because one or two players

might

be trying to convince us to do something that is anti-town. I think that if we all look for scummy actions, we can figure out which courses are anti-town. If we find someone trying to push something like that, we lynch them and solve all our problems.

Again, I didn't

pick

the list, I

proposed

it. Important distinction. If you don't like how little the town discussed the list, you should have said "We should discuss this list further," not "Guys he's not confirmed don't listen to anything he says!" One of those is pro-town.

Regarding your unvote, you weighed my arguments

for

Muerrto's lynch against your arguments

for

Muerrto's lynch, and decided to unvote?

And as for my vote, we have a lot of day left and quite a few more claims to see.

Darla: Your turn.

[ClockworkRuse]

BB: Thank you. It's kind of funny that you jailed me, for reasons that I will explain when I claim. I'm a he, by the way

CWR: I don't know what advantage that could have, either. Besides claiming that we are buddying up by misattributing a consistent statement by me to him, and using that to show that we are in agreement.

We

should

assume that the scum are trying to trip us up, but it seems like you are saying that we shouldn't even

try

to reach majority consensus on any point because one or two players

might

be trying to convince us to do something that is anti-town. I think that if we all look for scummy actions, we can figure out which courses are anti-town. If we find someone trying to push something like that, we lynch them and solve all our problems.

Again, I didn't

pick

the list, I

proposed

it. Important distinction. If you don't like how little the town discussed the list, you should have said "We should discuss this list further," not "Guys he's not confirmed don't listen to anything he says!" One of those is pro-town.

Regarding your unvote, you weighed my arguments

for

Muerrto's lynch against your arguments

for

Muerrto's lynch, and decided to unvote?

And as for my vote, we have a lot of day left and quite a few more claims to see.

Darla: Your turn.

Another case of mistaken identity. God it's been a long day. D:

IIRC, you were pushing for Muerrto's lynch and... Strife and Charter we're attacking me over the same thing.

[strife220]

Ugh... I just deleted the lengthy post I just wrote.


Very interested to hear Sthar8 roleclaim. If BB is telling the truth, it's highly likely that there was no kill last night because Sthar8 was in jail. More on this after roleclaims.

@BB: Sorry if I missed it, but you didn't seem to explain why you didn't counterclaim Muerrto. Also, you don't seem to be suspicious of Sthar8 even though you jailed him and no kill went off. If you're town, doesn't the most likely situation put him as scum?


@CWR: I'll explain why I liked Sthar8's ordering after claims are done.




On a similar note:

Plain, Dry Ramen is

the

Vanilla Townie role of the game, not Chicken.

Bolded to highlight the confusing part. You don't seem to get it CWR. Saying you're THE vanilla role implies that nobody else can possibly be vanilla.



Sthar8 said it, but I'll repeat.

Darla

, you're up on claim. Bolded out of impatience.

[strife220]

EBWOP: "On a similar note" in the above post doesn't fit after I moved things around. I felt this deserves a post of it's own.

*Waits for CWR*
Actually, if people really thought about what I said, and the fact that I am "Chicken flavor," it should be pretty obvious what my role could be.

Woah... incredibly suspicious post. It should be obvious what your role is? ... Jailer? It's obvious chicken is jailer? Look like BB was planning on claiming Vanilla but CWR has implied that he's the only vanilla. You got some 'splaining to do BB.

[ClockworkRuse]

Ugh... I just deleted the lengthy post I just wrote.


Very interested to hear Sthar8 roleclaim. If BB is telling the truth, it's highly likely that there was no kill last night because Sthar8 was in jail. More on this after roleclaims.

@BB: Sorry if I missed it, but you didn't seem to explain why you didn't counterclaim Muerrto. Also, you don't seem to be suspicious of Sthar8 even though you jailed him and no kill went off. If you're town, doesn't the most likely situation put him as scum?


@CWR: I'll explain why I liked Sthar8's ordering after claims are done.




On a similar note:

Plain, Dry Ramen is

the

Vanilla Townie role of the game, not Chicken.

Bolded to highlight the confusing part. You don't seem to get it CWR. Saying you're THE vanilla role implies that nobody else can possibly be vanilla.



Sthar8 said it, but I'll repeat.

Darla

, you're up on claim. Bolded out of impatience.

And I've explained that before.

I was saying that

Chicken

is not the vanilla role and that PDR is. [It's a bit easier to call it that.]

I would assume that I'm not the only PDR, honestly.

[DarlaBlueEyes]

Right well I can confirm Clock's claim now that Plain Dry Ramen is indeed the vanilla flavor.

I have nothing to report thusly.

I am a tad confused on BB's role but I've never seen the Jailkeep role, will wiki it now

next?

[melikefood]

So, which list are we going by?
Because it's either Sthar8 or Me.

[DarlaBlueEyes]

I think its you food, cos we moved sthar down didn't we?

[melikefood]

Okay.
I am a Mason. Spicy Chicken.

Puzzle answers.


Mii Like Fude izz(Fizz-F) a(4) Member(M+Ember) Ov(Oven-En) The Maysens (May+S+En from oven) In 619 (Holy crap it was the number of the game!)

I also made a flavor claim puzzle.


Spy-C(Spy+C) Chicon(Tai Chi+Fanime Con)

[melikefood]

EBWOP
My flavor allowed me to use my spicy powers to communicate.

[ClockworkRuse]

So your claim is mason?