Mini 619 - Ramen Mafia (Over!)

[Muerrto]

Massive FoS: DBE

btw. What's a 'psuedovote'? A 'I want him lynched but don't wanna be associated with the wagon' vote?

[DarlaBlueEyes]

I have to agree with Muerrto that we shouldn't waste the day just to put him (back) in his grave. I think that we should all agree that Muerrto dies today, then discuss candidates for tomorrow. I favor CWR at this point because I beleive he has been making deliberately confusing statements in order to derail pro-town actions.

I am strongly opposed to a massclaim at this point.

I agree with this, Thats why i pseudo-voted. I didn't wanna get him closer to a lynch and risk a hammer when we still had day left to discuss. Because our deadlines are pressurizing to say the least.

I also am not liking CWR's play today, but i don't want to decide on the next lynch yet. There are too many variables, Investigations, Claims, Scum tells ect ect.

He is a candidate, sure, maybe a bit higher than others on my list, but I'm not fond of the idea of pre-choosing a lynchee for the next day.

[strife220]

As for a mass-claim, I don't see the benefit at this particular moment. I think a mass-claim tomorrow is fine, but on Day 2 it seems a little premature.

The reason why early mass-claims are bad is because it outs town power so scum know who to pick off at night. My argument for town power is that scum already know our two most important power-roles (assuming they're telling the truth, which I think they probably are). A third, incredibly valuable role is dead. There can't possibly be much more town power out there, and if there is, they can't be higher a priority than doc and cop on the scum kill list.

I'm already skeptical of WK's result. I disagree that Muerrto is the lynch for today, because I think town having a frame-blocker or a vanilla townie actually being a miller is fairly high. I think a mass-claim will bring a lot of light to this situation.


Please argue why a mass-claim is not a good idea, keeping in mind we have a claimed doc and cop.

[sthar8]

I am

strongly

opposed to a massclaim.

Any setup info we gain will be limited to pro-town roles, so we won't be able to outguess the mod's balancing strategy effectively. There is a high probability that we have more roles whose effectiveness is limited after a massclaim. In addition, I find it

very

unlikely that any framers or millers on the town side

know

that they are framers or millers, so a massclaim doesn't really help us with that situation either. In fact, if we have a pro-town RB or similar who targeted Muerrto, I'd rather that player sit on their thumbs and continue play with the knowledge that they

might

be a framer, rather than potentially outing themselves to the scum.

And how does lynching someone

without

an investigation result even make sense? It's already been noted that until we have more info on our cop sanity, or can confirm Muerrto's role, our cop is less powerful than he might otherwise be. I doubt that we will be in LYLO tomorrow, so I'd rather have a decreased doubt in our cop, or at the very least be sure that Muerrto isn't scum getting away after being investigated guilty.

Now, Day 3 I might be willing to massclaim, but I don't think we're ready yet.

As for tomorrow's lynch, we don't need to decide today, but it can't hurt to get some input from whoever is going to die tonight. If we spend today discussing tomorrow's lynch, we will be that much closer to sure when it's time to hammer tomorrow.

[ClockworkRuse]

Hah, just looked through CWR's posts yesterday, and he was scheming mafia strategies yesterday as well. I'd say this was the most blatent,

I must say I haven't understood CR's last few posts... I don't get the point he's trying to make with the vig-scum-nkill-whatever deal.

But anyway, even if kiwi is lying or is an SK, we might as well save him for a bit later. After all, if he is SK, he's after the mafia, too...

Here, I'll chart it out.

Town - Alright Vig, kill X.
Vig- Okay.

Night comes around.
Vig nk's X
Mafia no kills.

The next day, mafia puts blame onto vig saying he faked claimed to try to get rid of the NK immune vig.

He also had a few more posts giving the mafia ideas on what to do during the night. CWR, why do you spend so much time trying to figure out what the scum will do/give them ideas?

I don't buy Muerrto's claim, but his wagon has grown far too quickly. I'd say give WK another night and see if we get a different result. Perhaps he is insane/paranoid. I'm convinced CWR needs to go today before he gives the scum more ideas...

I'm not giving scum ideas at all, it's you who seems to think that. And for suggesting simple logic, I'm giving scum ideas? I really wish I was as naive as you. Something is strange about none of the power-roles being hit, and I'm sticking to that. The situation yesterday was

way

too easy for mafia to control and I was trying to warn the town with that.

I agree with Strife that I didn't 'save' anyone from anything and that BB shouldn't be using Oman's logic to defend me. In fact, BB why were you defending me at all? I'm a big boy, I can deal with this poor accusations myself.

All I did yesterday was warn the town that the situation was way too easy to manipulate and that we should not discuss who the so-called Vig was going to kill. I didn't save the town at all with that.

So, BB, for going above and beyond to buddy up to me,

FOS.

Now then, can I ask why we aren't lynching Muerrto? With his lynch, we discover if our cop is insane, paranoid, or sane. Information that we

need

to know.

As for the role claim issue; I'd like to quote sthar8 for the truth;

I am strongly opposed to a massclaim.

Any setup info we gain will be limited to pro-town roles, so we won't be able to outguess the mod's balancing strategy effectively. There is a high probability that we have more roles whose effectiveness is limited after a massclaim. In addition, I find it very unlikely that any framers or millers on the town side know that they are framers or millers, so a massclaim doesn't really help us with that situation either. In fact, if we have a pro-town RB or similar who targeted Muerrto, I'd rather that player sit on their thumbs and continue play with the knowledge that they mightbe a framer, rather than potentially outing themselves to the scum.

And how does lynching someone without an investigation result even make sense? It's already been noted that until we have more info on our cop sanity, or can confirm Muerrto's role, our cop is less powerful than he might otherwise be. I doubt that we will be in LYLO tomorrow, so I'd rather have a decreased doubt in our cop, or at the very least be sure that Muerrto isn't scum getting away after being investigated guilty.

Now, Day 3 I might be willing to massclaim, but I don't think we're ready yet.

As for tomorrow's lynch, we don't need to decide today, but it can't hurt to get some input from whoever is going to die tonight. If we spend today discussing tomorrow's lynch, we will be that much closer to sure when it's time to hammer tomorrow.

[[Excuse the lack of italics, that was just a simple copy and paste from the Topic Review.]]

This is a great post.

The town shouldn't be mass-claiming yet at all, it will only hinder our decisions today. Keep in mind that we will have to deal with false claims and wade through even more lies to when we do mass claim, so lets solve one problem at a time.

We

need

to know the sanity of our cop. If he's insane, then he's still a powerful weapon. But if he turns out to be paranoid then he's just a dull butter knife, hardly useful to us. Can someone please explain how it's

not

a good idea for us to find the sanity of our cop?

Vote: Muerrto

[strife220]

It's not a good idea to test the sanity of our cop if it involves lynching a townie.
Given how much pro-town power there seems to be, I'm highly suspect of WKs result. There's a chance he's paranoid, there's a chance Muerrto was a miller, there's a chance Muerrto was framed, there's a chance WK is scum.

WK will survive the night regardless because we have a claimed doc. Tomorrow he will have a new result. That new result will get us information about Muerrto. I don't want to lynch a player simply to 'test' our cop, especially when that test has no guarantee of being conclusive.


@Muerrto: Do you still think WK is scum? If not, why has your opinion changed?

[strife220]

EBWOP:
I should re-read more closely before I ask questions. Muerrto already answered that, sorry.

Am I the only one that thinks Muerrto shouldn't be lynched today?

[windkirby]

Hold it - I thought about it, and I changed my mind. I came up with a possible plan that I thought I could propose.
We keep Muerrto alive and do not investigate my targets until I recieve an innocent result or am NK'd, at least for another day or two. If I get an innocent result, we know I'm not paranoid, and if I die, you know I'm cop. If either of these two things happen, we then lynch Muerrto (or another guilty result who we are more suspicious of), and if they flip scum, we rejoice and continue. If they flip town, we can take it from there. This plan does not protect from a miller scenario, but honestly with an SK I rather doubt there is one...
This is only an idea, and since I still don't think there's a large enough chance I'm not sane, my vote continues where it is. However, since other people are having doubts, I thought I might at least run this by.

[Flameaxe]

You know what goes here.

[charter]

I don't think massclaiming is going to out anything else, however I don't think it's going to reveal anything but vanilla townies. On the off chance that we do have more town power, I say we don't mass claim yet.

Now then, can I ask why we aren't lynching Muerrto? With his lynch, we discover if our cop is insane, paranoid, or sane. Information that we need to know.

I get the feeling that CWR knows that Muerrto is town, and is misleadingly trying to convince us to lynch him based solely on WK's result. I've already explained. Lynching Muerrto will only narrow down WK's sanity to sane/insane or paranoid. Until you get a different result there's no way to figure out if he's useful or not. I also don't like his putting forth all these different theories on what could have happened during the night. Other than Muerrto's flimsy claim, and WK's result, I don't see anything else on him. I'm also fairly suspect of WK's claim, I have a hard time believing that we both have a sane cop, and that he is the sane cop.

Charter: Why wouldn't we lynch Muerrto today? If we fail to, we miss the opportunity to gain information about which of the four possible roles that WK has. We also potentially lose the use of a very pro-town role. I understand your reservations about potential cop sanity, but the only way to solve that problem is to act on WK's info.

I see what you're saying, I think it's just better to wait until tomorrow. If WK gets another guilty, then he's either a great cop, or insane/paranoid. Personally, WK has struck me as everything but great this game. If he gets an innocent tomorrow, then I'm all for lynching either Muerrto or the innocent. My vote goes for holding off until tomorrow.

I agree with Strife that I didn't 'save' anyone from anything and that BB shouldn't be using Oman's logic to defend me.

This makes no sense. Strh8 who said the only thing you saved us from was a pro-town strategy. Clarify?

WK, do you have any reason to say "since I still don't think there's a large enough chance I'm not sane"? Also, you start off you post saying you changed your mind, about what?

My vote still stands.

[DarlaBlueEyes]

I am willing to go with the plan WK suggested but, perhaps I just misunderstood here, but would that mean a no-lynch for today? I can't help but think that would be very detrimental to the town.

An easier way to test whether or not WK is paranoid would be to Lynch Muerrto and see what he flips, it will either confirm or deny WK.

Maybe I missed something..cos I have been awake 48 hours straight here...but it seems the more logical thing to do at this time.

[windkirby]

Charter - Many doubt that Muerrto is guilty because a) my sanity and b) my alignment. I only

slightly

question my alignment, so I don't think it's enough to change my mind that Muerrto ought to be lynched. I suggested the plan because I changed my mind

about

that there were absolutely no possible benefits for not lynching Muerrto. I still think we should, but there are a few possible benefits.
Darla - I in no way meant to support a no lynch. I was just saying that if people really, really thought that Muerrto was innocent enough to keep him alive, I would be alright lynching someone else for now.

[Muerrto]

I love how people are simply not listening. If you're GOING to lynch me PLEASE drag the day out and get some info first...

I'm at lynch -1, no clue why I'm 'guilty'.

I don't like BB or especially CWR placing their votes so rapidly. The faster we get to nightfall the better it is for the scum, ergo, the speedlynch is scummy.

I really don't like DBE's 'I don't wanna vote you but when you get close to death I'll gladly do it' vote.

When I die I guess you can at least use that info. I'd rather you guys hold off and at least TRY and play the game but whatever.

[strife220]

Funny... I agree with both Charter and WK here.

Definitely uncomfortable with a player at L-1 with a week left before deadline. This issue is far from as cut and dry as most are making it out to be.


Since it seems to have an influence over my behaviour, and I realllly doubt it will in any way harm town, I'm going to softclaim here that I have a powerrole. I am not a vanilla townie. It's part of the reason why I'm especially suspicious of a guilty, and why I've been interested in a mass claim - so that statements like these are known to be false:

I don't think massclaiming is going to out anything else, however I don't think it's going to reveal anything but vanilla townies. On the off chance that we do have more town power, I say we don't mass claim yet.

I don't feel like scum would choose to lynch me over a doc or cop, so I'm not worried that my soft-claim will detriment town. I'm not sure if town is willing to 'take my word for it,' but I can assure you that when we do mass-claim, you'll see that I'm not just making stuff up to influence town's decision. You can hold me to those word.


So, given that we have a doc, cop, jack-of-all-trades, and I have my own power, I'm convinced that scum must have a significant amount of power themselves, or town has some detrimental roles. I think another investigation from WK will be very telling of his reliability, and a lynch on Muerrto is unnecessary (and possibly uneffective) for 'proving' our cop. I will only be voting Muerrto if it's necessary to avoid a no-lynch.

Unfortunately I'm less decisive here as to who I do want to lynch. I'll have to do some re-reading to settle on an opinion

[melikefood]

I'll

unvote

just to make sure we don't accidentally lynch Murrerto in a miscount of votes without getting though all the conversation.

I'll put it back up if the deadline approaches (about 24 hrs to night, too lazy for exact calculations) and we don't get a scum tell.

[charter]

Charter - Many doubt that Muerrto is guilty because a) my sanity and b) my alignment. I only

slightly

question my alignment

You're going to have to explain this one. How do you question your alignment, even slightly?

@Strife, I have no idea what your role is, but would you only claiming be beneficial?

[melikefood]

It may lead the Mafia away from you and WK.
I mean you've got a cop, a doc, and OOOH LOOK MYSTERY BOX!

[charter]

It may lead the Mafia away from you and WK.
I mean you've got a cop, a doc, and OOOH LOOK MYSTERY BOX!

Make sense.

[strife220]

@Strife, I have no idea what your role is, but would you only claiming be beneficial?

So long as people believe that I'm not lying, then town wouldn't benefit from knowing my specific role. Since full-claiming doesn't 'prove' my role any more than soft-claiming, there's no real benefit. My claim will be satisfactory upon mass-claim, or whenever I'm forced to.

[windkirby]

Charter - Many doubt that Muerrto is guilty because a) my sanity and b) my alignment. I only

slightly

question my alignment

You're going to have to explain this one. How do you question your alignment, even slightly?

Shitterbug -- I meant to say "I only slightly question my sanity". I'm aware you can't question your own alignment >_>

[Beyond_Birthday]

FOS: Beyond _Birthday

1. I still haven't seen evidence to suggest that CWR "saved" us from anything but a solid pro-town strategy. His points against that strategy were flawed, incomplete, and based on the assumption that the rest of us would be limited to the same kind of logic.

2. Just because someone said something then died and flipped town, does not make that something true. Especially when that person

fake claimed a name that was not his own

. Oman had no more information than the rest of us.

3. You propose a false dilemma when you suggest that our choice is between no-lynch and Muerrto.

4. Though your defense of CWR is informative, it might be better if you let him speak on his own behalf in the future, or at least let him have the first say.

Charter: Why wouldn't we lynch Muerrto today? If we fail to, we miss the opportunity to gain information about which of the four possible roles that WK has. We also potentially lose the use of a very pro-town role. I understand your reservations about potential cop sanity, but the only way to solve that problem is to act on WK's info.

Also, your case against CWR seems to be that he needs to die because he is giving the scum advice. If I'm not mistaken, that assumes that he is town, but you still want to lynch him? I don't disagree that CWR is exceptionally scummy, I just think you're going about his case the wrong way.

I have to agree with Muerrto that we shouldn't waste the day just to put him (back) in his grave. I think that we should all agree that Muerrto dies today, then discuss candidates for tomorrow. I favor CWR at this point because I beleive he has been making deliberately confusing statements in order to derail pro-town actions.

I am strongly opposed to a massclaim at this point.

1. Fair enough.

2. I know. I agreed with his logic, you disagree.

3. No, I do not. I never said, "Either we lynch Muertto or we no lynch." I am saying that in my mind a Muertto lynch is the best case. And after hearing his flavor claim, I am slightly surprised there hasn't been another townie who at least agrees with the flavor claim. I figured that would be good enough in figuring out whether Muertto is townie or mafia... I suppose I can see where this isn't the best idea, and I have no problems waiting till later to lynch him. (Assuming we prove WK's alignment/sanity.)

4. Well, it can be sumised to say "BB is defending CWR," however, my main intent is to point out that Muertto, by far, is a better lynch. He is not a role, apparently, and mafia is more likely to claim townie than a power role. However, this is before I thought of the Miller. So, I can definitely see prolonging day.

************************

Okay, so

Unvote

. I have no problems waiting.

@strife220: Okay, some of us has to be like the 0%vig, because I will go ahead and soft claim a power role. That makes 4 claims on power roles, which is enormous for a 12 person town. Plus, there is the confirmed Jack of all Seasonings... That makes five:
Doc
Cop
Jack-confirmed (Liam)
????-strife
????-BB

So, realistically, someone is lying, or someone is actually powerless...

Still, I don't really think that Cop can really be sane at this point. (But what if the mod is screwing with us and Cop was sane and we were just bamboozled XDDD)

I am going to look over yesterday for Muertto, 'cause to be honest, I still think of him as highly suspect.

[sthar8]

strife: I'm really not liking your play today. It reminds me a lot of CWR's end of day shenanigans yesterday, and thatis a dance we should not be imitating.

I still have not seen any concrete reason for a massclaim, or for Muerrto to survive today. The vague fear that he might be a miller does not outweigh the potential gain from his lynch, and a guilty result is the most concrete evidence we could possible have against him.

Your speculation regarding the mod's balancing strikes me as fruitless. There are a dozen different strategies he could have used to balance a significantly powered town, and only a few of those require unreliable investigative roles. Trying to outguess the mod in this manner is foolish and wastes valuable time.

Your soft claim is also unwise, in my opinion. You have potentially added your name to the list of scum kills, and for what reason? To prove that there is more town power in the game? Why did pro-town players need to know that? I was hoping to have at least

one

night of scum uncertainty

somewhere

along the line, but you've pretty much shattered that strategy, if you're town. You've accelerated the timetable for a massclaim by forcing us to accept some of the negative consequences without gaining the benefits

Charter: That's not the first time I've been mistaken for strife this game.

BB: why does your claim help anything?

3. You propose a false dilemma when you suggest that our choice is between no-lynch and Muerrto.

So, instead of no lynching, I can see a Muerrto lynch as being more sensible, assuming we trust the cop and his possible sanity issues.

And for two, your implied argument was that since Oman said it, and he turned town, it must be true. That is a false authority. If you had argued that the argument was sound on it's own merits, I would have responded differently.

Sane cop is fair if the scum has two GF's, since you guys can't wrap your heads around the fact that there are multiple ways to balance this. Just sayingl.

I guess I can deal with the "lynch the second best option today and save Muerrto for tomorrow" plan, even if I don't like it.

[sthar8]

EBWOP: If we have anymore power roles, can you please not randomly out yourself until we're ready for a massclaim? Please?

[melikefood]

I'm gonna go ahead and softclaim a power role too.

I've got a fun little puzzle too.
I'm gonna wait until the next day, as the puzzle might mess things up.

[ClockworkRuse]

I don't think massclaiming is going to out anything else, however I don't think it's going to reveal anything but vanilla townies. On the off chance that we do have more town power, I say we don't mass claim yet.

Now then, can I ask why we aren't lynching Muerrto? With his lynch, we discover if our cop is insane, paranoid, or sane. Information that we need to know.

I get the feeling that CWR knows that Muerrto is town, and is misleadingly trying to convince us to lynch him based solely on WK's result. I've already explained. Lynching Muerrto will only narrow down WK's sanity to sane/insane or paranoid. Until you get a different result there's no way to figure out if he's useful or not. I also don't like his putting forth all these different theories on what could have happened during the night. Other than Muerrto's flimsy claim, and WK's result, I don't see anything else on him. I'm also fairly suspect of WK's claim, I have a hard time believing that we both have a sane cop, and that he is the sane cop.

Then you'd better not trust your feelings, because they are dead wrong.

I agree with Strife that I didn't 'save' anyone from anything and that BB shouldn't be using Oman's logic to defend me.

This makes no sense. Strh8 who said the only thing you saved us from was a pro-town strategy. Clarify?[/quote]

I read the wrong name for that post, yes. But I agree that I didn't save the town from anything and that BB should no be using Oman's 'Oh my, he's right!' opinion to save us.

In my opinion, there have only been two people who have looked at what I said yesterday and said 'Wow, that sucked.' Either these two people are very pro-town and pointing out some flaws in my thinking [which I can admit, there are some] or are scum and are trying to discredit me for trying to warn the town of how bad it could have been for us to let the town pick Kiwi's night kill.

Now then, as for the comments toward the lynch of Muerrto. I am still in favor of it. We have to lynch someone today and I still fail to see how lynching Muerrto is a bad play if it can give us information about our cop. A day in advance.