Open 81 - The New C9 - Game Over

[forbiddanlight]

um, wow, no random voting stage? To be fair, I honestly feel like

voting roflcopter

here because quite honestly, armix's post doesn't look like rolefishing, it looks like an honest defense to what looks like a ridiculous crusade on your part that takes up half of page 1.

[forbiddanlight]

I think it's pretty clear who I think is the scummiest right now. I admit I misread the post, but I still say while armix's question could be rolefishing, I honestly would probably ask that myself. It seemed to be a relatively random clearing.

[forbiddanlight]

@iamausername, you may think its a stupid trap, but it worked. when someone says "player x is obvtown" at the start of day one, and someone else says "why?" the only answer they're looking for or thinking is "because i'm a town power role duh."

I know that was at iamausername, but I'd like to put in that if I said why, I wouldn't JUST be thinking of town roles. I'd probably be asking to find out if you had some sort of meta read that made you sure, or to call a bluff on an unsubstantiated claim. There are other possibilities than the one you are looking at, and the fact you are trying to FORCE it into that one possibility leads me to believe I might be on the right track voting you.

[forbiddanlight]

Ugh. Fine,

unvote roflcopter

. Back to square one I guess. I guess I'll see what happens now :S. I still don't see armix's actions as a rolefish. Lowell's actions WERE a blatant rolefish, but I find myself agreeing with his logic.

[forbiddanlight]

FoS STrangerCoug

. I rather dislike how reluctant you were to get off the mason claimants, and then still trying to make it look like they could be scum. It's been beaten to death, but let's reiterate again. D1 mason claims would be pretty stupid for scum to do. I'm not ready to vote you yet, but should a wagon appear on you, I will sure as hell join it.

[forbiddanlight]

Well, in case you all DO want to kill me shortly, I might as well point out I'm a vanilla townie. No claim here, continue voting at will. I'm actually quite astounded that that one statement got a wagon on me. To be honest, I was justifying intuition. I don't feel that StrangerCoug is town, but I'm maddeningly incapable of backing that up with much more, hence why I only FoS'd. I didn't want to start the bandwagon because I didn't have any "real" evidence. If a wagon started, my intuition would be more justified, and I also might actually find the reason that I'm suspicious of him, other than what I said. I also think at this point there is probably at least one scum on my wagon (since they should pretty clearly know I'm not scum). Given that, I will

vote Vamparific

since from what I can tell, he just waltzed in and jumped on the running wagon. Pretty easy way to hide as everyone was accusing me of attempting to do. I also am supsicious of StrangerCoug, but since that's not likely to go anywhere, let's hit the other one who looks mildly scummy here.

Also, I have 5 votes on my wagon. Thanks .

[forbiddanlight]

Claim doesn't really help. Vote stands for now.

Well, I just wanted to make sure I got my claim of vanilla townie out there before you all pushed the lynch. At least then you know you aren't killing a doc or a cop.

[forbiddanlight]

I'll say that this post by Vamp looks enough like opportunistic scum behaviour to warrant Unvote, Vote: Vamparific. Forbidden's post Was scummy so I have no problem with her wagon. Just think Vamp is better.

THANK you. Someone understands my logic here, even if you didn't quote it. Also, I only see two claims...am I missing something? I claimed to be a regular townie...I don't think that really counts as claiming, lol. As for my wagon, I still think that was way too quick and a bit weak. I said one thing that could be taken badly, and then explained my reasoning for it in a later post after I suddenly end up with 5 votes on me. I'm surprised no one has addressed that at all. Please, tell me what your new thoughts are given my explanation. Will you keep your vote on me, take it off, spontaneously combust? (scum, please choose the third option). I think it'd be rather helpful to know.

[forbiddanlight]

Because EVERYONE would claim to be a regular townie, even scum. I mean, generally, the assumption is everyone is a townie until they seem otherwise, whether by admitting they have an aux role or because their posts reek of mafianess.

[forbiddanlight]

Um...that's...pretty ridiculous. The scum know who they aren't. They already know I'm a townie, no matter what I said. And plus, I could be lying about being a townie, and could have a role I'd rather keep hidden. I don't, but it's a possibility. There's also the fact that since it looks like we had a rather fast wagon on me that possibly could have gone to completion, claiming regular townie at least reassures people they aren't killing an aux. Really, I don't see stating "I am a vanilla townie" as a tell either way.

[forbiddanlight]

I cede your points. I forgot the SK was considered scum. And the fact that it could be considered anti-town if I'm shrinking the pool of potential power roles. Sorry.

[forbiddanlight]

You weren't even at half the votes needed for a lynch. It would take some really dumb play from a lot of people for you to go from 4 votes to 9 without a chance to post in between, so your claim came far too early.

Just to fix this. I had 5 votes, not four votes. Coug miscounted. I'm at 4 with Strife's vote change. So, I was definitely at over half of the votes needed for a lynch. Just bugged me slightly.

[forbiddanlight]

Vamparific has more against him than you realize. You don't just throw a vote on a bandwagon with "I agree with what everyone else has said". Especially when you get into higher vote counts. It was the 4th vote, so not really bad, but it's still very fishy to walk in, vote with such a flimsy reason, and walk out. Then he comes back with his only defense being "I always screw myself over"? Yeah, that's not scummy at ALL. The "very little" you speak of is ridiculous. I had intuition on you for my FoS. I can't vote on intuition. Well, I CAN, but it's not good play. I do however feel if a wagon did form on you, someone would point out what my intuition was going off on, so I'd feel better about voting you;. Vamparific however, was just a straight reading the evidence. It's scummy, no two ways about it. So, I really think that you aren't examining the situation well, StrangerCoug.

[forbiddanlight]

Precisely my question, but you beat me to it, username. The unvote isn't going to get my vote off you. It actually makes me feel better about it. It's SCUMMY to vote and unvote without reasons.

[forbiddanlight]

Lowell, you've been mentioning pro town vibes a lot. If you don't mind me asking, who AREN'T you getting pro town vibes from, or possibly even scum vibes?

[forbiddanlight]

Mostly what I already brought up. And fix your quotes in another post, PLEASE. You seem to think my reasons for voting you and vamp are the same. They aren't, and I have much more substantiation with Vamp (which still isn't much, but it's D1). Your case is mostly intuition, meaning I'd basically rather wait, as you say, to see what others thing to see what my intuition is going off on, since I can't seem to find much else than what I actually put down for my reasons for FoSing you. I think that covers it.

[forbiddanlight]

Meh, I don't know if I CAN make a case. I know what you say about intuition, but mine is rather frustrating as it's something I usually can't consciously pick out quickly. I'll relook it over (I did it once), but I don't think I'll get anywhere with that case. The case on Vamp, however, is not looking good in my eyes. He hasn't even TRIED to defend himself.

[forbiddanlight]

I've relooked, and I think I know what happened. I got Coug's stance slightly confused and thought I saw a contradiction. I still FoS based on the idea that he was REALLY reluctant to get off pseudo confirmed townie roflcopter, buuut, I don't think I'd vote him, especially with vamp popping in and out with one sentence posts.

[forbiddanlight]

Why did you claim at -4?? Claiming should NOT be done until you're at about -2. And just out the blue with no-one asking for a claim? What's that about?

Arguable. Cougar was holding his vote pending a claim

Sorry, but where did the SK come into this topic?

Argument about whether the scum know who's town or not. I was under the impression the SK didn't count as scum so much as being in it for his own sake. I kinda screwed up my thinking here. It happens.

forbiddenlight, I'm utterly confused as to how claiming Vanilla Townie isn't really claiming, have you gotten Vanilla Townie and being generally protown mixed up?

In most of the games I have played on other forums, claiming townie is kinda just something implied. I forget about the SK and mafia being two seperate scum factions. I personally didn't see it as claiming because when I think claim, I think claiming a power role. So sue me, it's getting used to how things are done around here. I doubt I'm gonna be an NK target for it with so much suspicion surrounding me, and there was suspicion surrounding me even if I hadn't claimed vanilla townie.


Just figured I'd address those points.

[forbiddanlight]

Um, wow, ok. Geez...I want to stick on vamp, but I want to vote Korts too...that is blatant rolefishing...but...I feel better about vamp. No reasoning at all. However,

HoS:Korts

. Even if it's not rolefishing it's pointing something out that can only help the scum. Even if you think it's obvious, you don't come out and say it, because there is always a chance of stupid scum. In fact, isn't this the main argument against me? Revealing I'm a townie lowers the pool of power roles...but saying "Well, you've made it clear you aren't the vig"...doesn't? I think that's nigh hypocritical.

[forbiddanlight]

Ok, one thing, did you see it before you posted or after, Korts? Doing something because you "can't help yourself" isn't good play. (yeah, I know, I'm one to talk, but it's still true).

[forbiddanlight]

Ok, one thing, did you see it before you posted or after, Korts? Doing something because you "can't help yourself" isn't good play. (yeah, I know, I'm one to talk, but it's still true).

Did I see what before I posted?

I did. I misphrased that. What I meant was did you see it hurt the town before or after you posted that?

[forbiddanlight]

lol, sarnath'ed. Ok, well, in that case...I'll drop to an

FoS KortS

. I can't let that go, but it's not quite as bad as it initially seemed.

[forbiddanlight]

Then play, or be lynched. Give REASONS for your votes, don't pop in and out with random voting and unvoting. The time for that has passed!

[forbiddanlight]

Let me say I don't support the KortS lynch. I feel he made an honest mistake, that was worth an FoS, but he doesn't need to die for it. I don't feel good about that wagon. I prefer a Vamp lynch, since it is obvious we aren't going to get any insightful play from him, as well as the fact he's been playing scummy. I don't see KortS as the play. This can change, but I don't see it yet.

[forbiddanlight]

But, it's not JUST a policy lynch. Can you say with full honestly Vamp hasn't been scummy? The policy is a factor, but to be honest his play has just been really scummy. That's the main reason I support it.

[forbiddanlight]

Let me say I don't support the KortS lynch. I feel he made an honest mistake, that was worth an FoS, but he doesn't need to die for it.

If you think it was an honest mistake, why is it worth a FoS?

---

Because the comment is still questionable. Even as an honest mistake one must be open to the idea of slips. I still stand by vamp being scummy, but I will do a reread to see who I favor in the KortS/armix debate here, if either. I'm also going out, so I probably won't post my conclusions from the reread til I get back.

[forbiddanlight]

I apologize for being out longer than I thought I would last night, and thusly unable to do my reread with thoughts. I would do it today but I'm also going to be out til later tonight. However, I do know when I'll be back and it'll leave time for a good look at things. I'm sorry if it sounds like I'm trying to delay or something, but this weekend hasn't been very free due to real life (understandable, I assume, for people who live in America, given the 4th of July thing). So, tonight for certain I'll return with a good post about my thoughts after a reread. I apologize for the absences .

[forbiddanlight]

I'm not going out, actually. Just got the word. So, now, to do that long over due reread and analysis.

[forbiddanlight]

This post brought to you by the power of caffiene and techno:


Iron Man: Mason. I'm not even sure if his posts need analyzing. If people really want I'll EBWOP one in, but for now, seems like wasted effort.
roflcopter: See above.

Ok, now that we have the roles out of the way:

armix: Starts by approving N0 vig. Further discussion of the vig kill, but names it irrelevant. Then accuses Iron Man of vig fishing. Dismisses the vig/kneecap comment as not understanding N0 vig logic. Questions roflcopter's assertion that Iron Man is town. States in response to roflcopter's accusation that armix is scummy that there are 3 scenarios, stupid cop claim, scum protection of scum buddy or preparing an I told you so, or townie who looks like scum doing the previous. Explains N0 vig logic, votes roflcopter, defending himself against that rolefishing claim because no cop would be stupid enough to out himself post 2, so it had to be a meta read or total bullshit, which it is evidently the latter. Says rofl's question was almost protown, but off enough to be bad, and that iron man's self fufilling prophecy point had credence. Points out username hasn't been pushing strife's lynch, just answered rofl's question saying strife is scummer. Outright refusal to Lowell's stance that the masons should out themselves. Elaborates, stating with no doc, the masons outing themselves is suicidal with an SK and mafia, and the fact that it helps them by narrowing the pool of power roles, or gives them confirmeds to kill. Says assuming there is no doc is the best play. Unvotes, telling rofl there was no need to out iron man. Answers rofl's claim that he rolefished Iron's mason claim out by stating that there was a lot of town pushing the wagon and that rofl left a breadcrumb to it on his own. Fake mason claim is a crackpot theory. Responds to SC with the fact that rofl claimed mason. FoS' vamp for the armix is scummy post/vote. Asks Vamp why rofl's side is relevant. Opposes Lowell's view on the mason reveal, saying it does hurt town because if gives scum info. Armix agrees with korts about forbiddan's post, and votes her. Asks why rofl is less inclined to lynch SC for my post, due to bussing logic. Says rofl is OMGUSing him from that earlier question. States no one believes rofl's rolefishing claim. States no one has commented on armix "poisoning the well", stating that he has a valid point about how forbiddanlight being scum doesn't clear SC, whereas rofl doesn't think armix made a valid point. In response to korts, states that rofl was dumb for listening to lowell then. Argues that while it invalidates the wagon to claim point, it doesn't invalidate rofl's rolefishing claim being bogus. States forbiddan's claim doesn't count. Counters Greasy saying rofl should have waited til he was closer to lynch and should not have revealed his partner for true town benefit. Intuition isn't valid reasoning, and advises no claims til L-2. Explains what using intuition is. States that it doesn't matter whether you have half or more votes in a claim, you should only claim when you reach a certain number of votes as dictated by some equation. Further clarifies the math. FoS' Greasy and Sun Tzu, Greasy for dodging questions and Sun Tzu agreeing with Korts' last post. Tells Lowell the mason outing only works in mini games with few town power roles and one mafia group, not a large game with 2 killing groups. States that username was right in voting greasy, because not answering was scummy, but he should have done it when he reiterated the question, not waited til later. Takes issue with the question lacking a neither option, would be on greasy's side if he hadn't stalled in answering. Claims that not offering a neither option creates bias, states vibes aren't logic, and will tell Lowell to show his work if he does any more unexplained alignment calls. Puts a stop to the vig discussion. "but for now no one should bring up the subject any more as it will give away who can't be the vig if people agree/disagree. " Votes Korts for rolefishing, agreeing with username, thinks forbiddan is just newbie wagon bait in general. Feels a connection between SC and Korts, could vote for SC given the shameless bandwagonning. SC defending Korts for the connection. States the he doesn't feel forbiddanlight is scum, which is why that connection means less. States vamp should be vigged, not lynched. Polarizing lynches have more info. Says the quote about being against the mason claim is relevant to Lowell's towniness later on. Then states that reading it it looked like rofl claimed early in response to the wagon on him, albeit early, and states Korts case is nothing but OMGUS and what Korts himself sees as minor scumminess. Reiterates that a vamp vig is good, says he responded to every point on the case, and then states he knew about Lowell's call to claim, but didn't assume this was why rofl claimed, because of the growing wagon and it was one of the dumbest ideas ever. States he already addressed the connection point because he feels forbiddan is town, and plus, why should a connection matter if Korts is town? Asks why he would attack someone he thinks is town based on one point, whereas SC has been on every bandwagon so far...except Korts. Questions where it says armix says only SC defends Korts? Then says Korts is misrepresenting him, quoting Korts where he says "Since your point was only that SC believed me ". Leans Korts because he's not sure if SC always plays like this. Says from what he's seen it is not Korts normal.

strife220: Puts the second vote on Iron Man as a D1 wagon and also because of the comment on the vig with the doctor and kneecapping. Also states kill discussion is irrelevant. Sarcastic comment about roflcopter's case and deciding lynches page 1. States that rofl's trap was terrible, unvotes (presumably due to mason claim). States scum fake claim is too risky on the grounds that the real masons would come out and we'd have two scum lynched off the bat. States he's 2/3 done with an essay on dcorbe. Explains he posted that in the wrong game. Wants rofl to elaborate on why forbiddan's post makes him less inclined to lynch SC. Asks for further elaboration. Votes forbiddan for her "scummy post", asking rofl why he wouldn't outright vote her. Asks Lowell about a meta on the mason outing, thinks that forbiddan's wagon is fine, but Vamp is scummier and thusly votes him. Thinks GS might have been lashing out as scum, or maybe just has a bad attitude, sees the whole GS/username debate as irrelevant. Wonders where Lowell gets pro town vibes from forbiddan from, being his number 2 suspect at the time. States that forbiddan is right there are too many town vibes, says scum have more motivation to say whose town, and this is the opposite of scum hunting. Corrects armix stating that forbiddan's wagon doesn't exist anymore, it's on vamp now. Wants Korts to back up his statement, says it doesn't feel natural. Wants to see the case on armix if Korts is confident in his vote. Wants to see Vamp vigged, unvotes, decides to closer read on Korts.

Vamparific: Finds armix scummier in answer to roflcopter's question, votes armix for "trying to take control of the game". Doesn't want to be on rofl's side, unvotes. Votes forbiddan with an "I agree" post. "Lol I keep screwing myself over". Unvotes. Says he doesn't want to be replaced...and nothing else. "Oh, I got lotsa votes, lol"

Korts: Opens by voting roflcopter for trying to force tunnel vision. Also salutes the killer of Killa Seven. Then states in response to roflcopter that he's "always right EVENTUALLY", and that tunnel vision is bad for the town. Claims the harm of rofl's forcing the armix/strife debate on us is that if someone finds someone else scummier the debate still ends up running along those lines and the case might be ignored. Refuses to answer rofl's question. Says forbiddanlight isn't reading before she writes, roflcopter's assertation that armix is rolefishing was related to the "why" on page one, not his defense. Sees possible reason in rofl's point, but thinks he's blowing it way out of proportion. Encourages both Greasy and forbiddan not to answer rofl's question if they don't think either is scummy. Says he's basically trying to balance rofl's push to answer the question by pushing against it so the people's voices are untarnished. Rather strongly rebukes rofl for misrepresenting him in the question debate, and states that there is a remote chance that this is a scum gambit, even if rofl is untouchable today. Explains why he objects to the false dichotomy of rofl's question. SC's post voting rofl looks scummy to him, states rofl was more accusing armix than defending himself. unvotes rofl, stating he was reckless though. Is inclined to vote for SC also, but doesn't. Votes Forbiddan for preemptively justifying wagon opportunism. "Just die". Argues armix's assertion that rofl was wagoned to claim. Hopes roflcopter points are edible. (apparently 3 will lead to a cookie). Doesn't want to count forbiddan votes. States that the fact that rofl responded to lowell nullifies armix's wagon to claim point which was to defend his supposed rolefishing. answers SC with the connection between rofl's claim and rofl being wrong (about rolefishing, I think). Asks vamp to answer username's question, but realizes he got the wrong person. Buys Sun Tzu's vote explanation, dislikes forbiddan's explanation for her FoS, saying she could have researched SC to see what triggered her intuition and didn't. Votes forbiddanlight, chastises lowell for lack of reasoning. Buys the last part of forbiddan's post concerning vamp, votes vamp, complains about his own vote hopping. Korts misinterprets armix's post and says that he revealed that he wasn't the vig. Denies rolefishing, saying he didn't ask anyone to claim, nor did he ask armix to confirm this, nor was any of this implied. Calls BS on the wagon forming on him. Realizes his post could hurt the town, said that he couldn't help but point out that armix was unhelpful. He reread and realizes armix never denied being the vig. He reiterates this, also saying he never assumes stupid scum. Responds to forbiddan's question saying that he thought he was helping the town at first, but realized it was anti town later. Says armix is setting up multiple lynches in advance, tells BlakAdder to paraphrase, says policy lynches are bad concerning forbiddan's stance on vamp. Says that armix didn't see that connection between forbiddan and himself, votes armix, saying he should have done it awhile ago. Agrees with armix's stance on vigging vamp, then presents armix case, of changing history in the wagon to claim debate, then the againstness on the mason claim D1, wagon hopping to forbiddan, changing history again calling rofl's vote on armix OMGUS, and finally the ignoring possible forbiddan korts connection because she's not scum, even though to him SC and forbiddan have reacted the same way. States armix ignored the actual case, just answering a few supporting points. Says vig directing is scummy, but rofl is for the most part confirmed, and also doesn't disagree rofl is right eventually, but would scum hunt him if he weren't untouchable for that. Counters username saying that he's using the same case as armix. States that no connection should be ignored unless one is 100% sure someone is town...and that can only happen if you are in an informed minority. States armix might have just come up with the bandwagon thing with SC in desperation, since the original point was SC defended him, as forbiddan did. Counters, saying that forbiddan wasn't even mentioned in passing for the same action, and armix is misrepresenting him. Calls a word twist showing that the that between only indications that the connection was armix's only point. States some points of his armix case are weak, but the pushing of an SC connection and ignoring a forbiddanlight one is a big point. Calls blatant misrepresentation in post 283, and then asks why armix is sure this is Korts' normal play. Claims that he refuted the connection claim, then says he actually discredited, and phrased wrong. He also starts to say that there is an armix/username connection from the way they are pushing the SC/Korts connection, but then notices Jordan's claim.

iamausername: Starts with a random vote on tinvision, answers rofl's question saying strife looks scummier. Declares roflcopter's "trap" to be terrible. Questions Korts urgings for forbiddan and greasy not to answer the question, saying that they can tell us themselves if they find someone else scummier. Asks Korts why rofl's question tarnishes the people's voice. Can kinda see where rofl is coming from, but still states that pro town is just as qualified to ask that question. Votes Korts for being opposed to the line of questioning so strongly. Asks why Greasy says there is no case on strife, if it's because he's done nothing scummy or no ones pointed it out. Asks Greasy if he thinks there IS a case against armix (Greasy never said this, but he also never said armix doesn't look scummy). Outing masons is a bad idea. Tells people to stop claiming, readdresses his "So, do you find armix scummy" question to Greasy Spot. SImple no to BlakAdder's intuition comment. Asks why a townie claim wouldn't count. States claiming townie is NOT what everyone does, just claims to be protown. It's anti town to reduce the pool of possible power roles. Points out the two scum factions, and the fact that scum doesn't know if I have a power role or not. Counters the power role comment saying this claim would shed too much doubt on it if I claimed power later. States the claim was too early anyway, I wasn't even close to lynch. More or less agrees that my claim was a null tell. Votes Greasy Spot for not answering. Exhorts people to make a case, votes Sun Tzu for his unreasoned vote. Claims authority as a scumhunter to Greasy's challenge. Takes the Korts/Greasy case on armix comment to be his answer, so asks why Greasy protested rofl's question when he already had decided who was scummier. Asks vamp why he unvoted without saying anything else. Says that voting didn't come into it (given GS's phrasing was neither was scummy enough to vote), the question only asked who was scummier, and then asks why other scumhunting going on would make a difference. Also counters armix asking if armix thinks his delay in voting was scummy, and asks what he has to gain as scum doing that. Asks who said the question lacked a neither option, and also asks which stall armix was referring to. Asks Greasy what happened between post 17 and 31 to make him ask "You ask us which we think is scummiest yet there is no case against Strife so how could I possibly decide right now?", then rephrases to say post 42. Says he's not the one changed his answer after 25 posts. Asks him why he said that he couldn't decide between armix and strife when he apparently thought armix was scummier. If he really couldn't decide, why did he specifically say no case against strife? Treasures the OMGUS always. Gets in the vig discussion. Joking comment about how scum totally wants to NK claimed townies. Votes Korts for rolefishing with the vig comment. Asks Korts what possible benefit the vig comment could have. Believes that Korts may have misinterpretted armix, but he still rolefished. And that rolefishing is more innocuous comments to find roles rather than a direct asking like Lowell did, and he doesn't see Lowell as scummy for thinking a D1 mason claim is good for the town, even if he disagrees. Questions why forbiddan sees an honest mistake worth an FoS. Korts and SC have outed themself as scumbuddies obviously, according to him, BlakAdder case good too. Says rofl is wrong about armix, even if he has been persuing him since page 1. Feels that Korts pushing the forbiddanlight connection is a freak out between SC and Korts for getting caught so soon, and that setting up D2 lynches make sense when you have obvious connections like this.

Greasy Spot: Asks armix about N0 vig logic. Refuses to answer question til he wants to, states there is no case against strife, says he can't decide now. Asks rofl what response IS appropriate to someone starting the day with a claim someone is town. Answers username saying strife hasn't done anything scummy he's seen, and rofl is pushing his lynch without cause. Proposes a theory that rofl, Iron, armix and lowell are all scum. Questions Enlighted about why he looks odd, says armix is using craplogic, whereas Greasy was proposing a theory. Argues that the masons are nothing but glorified townies and being out helps the town by lowering the pool of people that can be scum. Gets defiant with username, asking what authority he has to ask that question. Also claiming he and Korts have cases against armix. States he was going to answer usernames question the second time he asked, but decided not to when he was voted because he felt that username was forcing his question on him, and he dislikes that. Counters username saying at the time he said that, neither of them was as scummy as the people pushing their lynch, and that a lot has changed since then. Responds that at post 17 neither was very scummy, to show how ridiculous username's claim that the scumhunting that happened since then didn't matter. Counter questions with username's: "Why would the fact that other scumhunting is going on make any difference to its relevance?" Says that username is an idiot for not allowing people to change their minds, and votes him "for being too stupid to be a townie."

forbiddanlight: Wonders whatever happened to random voting, and votes roflcopter for his attack on armix who she thinks appeared to be asking an honest question, not rolefishing. States she already voted for who she thinks is scummiest, and that while armix's actions COULD be construed as rolefishing, she'd honestly probably ask that herself if she saw it initially, because it was seemingly random clearing. Answers the question directed at username, stating there are other possibilities than fishing for roles. Unvotes rofl rather reluctantly, states she doesn't think armix was rolefishing, that lowell was, but she agrees with his logic. FoS' SC, states that she doesn't want to VOTE him, but she'll jump on his wagon. Claims regular townie, says that she didn't want to vote on pure intuition, thus the wagon comment, feels wagon would justify her intuition, votes vamp under the impression there is scum on her wagon, and that vamp has waltzed in to jump on wagons all game, and that while she still suspects SC, she's letting it go since no one follows. Just wanted to claim so they knew they weren't lynching a cop or something. Doesn't see townie as a real claim, is grateful someone sees the Vamp logic, and encourages discussion on the new developments. Retorts claiming townie is what everyone is assumed to be til they claim aux or their posts reek of scumminess. Claims username's view is ridiculous because the scum already know who's townie or not, and that she could have a power role she's keeping hidden for now, though she says she doesn't, just that it's possible. Doesn't see "I am a vanilla townie" as a tell either way. Cedes username's points, forgetting SK is scum and that she understands the claim could be anti town, apologizes. Fixes username's vote count. States why she thinks Vamp is scum (4th on a bandwagon with no reasoning, "always screw myself over comment", waltzing in and out of the thread.) While SC was intuition, Vamp is evidence. Was going to ask the same question, but username beat her to it. Still reiterates question. States it was scummy to unvote without reasons. Questions Lowell's pro town vibes, asks who he ISN'T getting town vibes, or even scum vibes from. States she already brought up the faulty examination, explains intuition was why she FoS'd. States she did look over, and couldn't find what triggered her intution, but usually has this frustration in mafia. She also sees the vamp case as solid. Relooks again, sees what happened, and it was a misunderstanding with SC, but she keeps her FoS on him because of the roflcopter claim issue, claims she's not likely to vote SC given Vamp's in and out one liners. Counters Jordan saying Cougar was semi asking for a claim, pointing out where the SK came into the discussion, re explains her stance on claiming townie, or what it used to be. HoS' Korts, claims she feels better about her vote on Vamp because of his no reasoning. Also mentions how this is blatant rolefishing, and questions how saying armix is not vig is any better than her claiming townie. After all, there can be stupid scum. Then asks if Korts saw it before or after he posted. (it being if it was anti town, as clarified later). Drops to FoS on Korts, stating she can see what might have happened, but doesn't want to let this go. "Then play or be lynched" to Vamp's comment. Doesn't see Korts as the play, thinks Vamp is for not playing insightfully. Says that while Korts made an honest mistake, it deserves an FoS. Reserves right to change her mind. States she's not policy lynching, Vamp has honestly been scummy, it's just that the policy does have a minor factor into it. Answers username saying that even as an honest mistake it could have been a slip, worthy of an FoS. Then rereads to figure out who is right in the armix/Korts debate. Comes back stating she finally has a chance to reread...then...posts...this!

StrangerCoug: Votes roflcopter, stating that such certainty can only be scum or cop, the latter being idiotic, and that he shot off the question of why he thought so by saying it was scummy and later rolefishing. Doesn't buy rofl's defense saying armix was rolefishing. Accuses rofl of moronicness for claiming mason and outing Iron Man. Refuses to unvote rofl because he made a serious blunder, town or not. Stonewalls on unvoting rofl, states he should take pride in being an informational power role. Specifically stating he does not have a good reason to unvote rofl. Relents, unvotes rofl, FoS' him. Votes Lowell for rolefishing. Doesn't believe armix was rolefishing. Says that he was looking at page one when he first posted, then responded to the quote on page 2 (defending against Korts). Then says he let the mason thing go by unvoting rofl, but kept and FoS on him for the scummy behavior exhibited before. Also states it's pretty clear we do have an SK, and asks if Lowell has anything else to say for the OMGUS vote on him. Questions why Lowell feels good about his SC vote. HoS' forbiddan, counters the reiteration point and says forbiddan is letting scum lead with the wagon comment. Also questions Korts inclination to vote him. Asks aboutt how many votes are on forbiddan. Doesn't want to kill forbiddan before she can claim, thus not voting her yet. Counts four votes on forbiddan (there were five). Asks about the connection that Korts refuted. States 3 people unneccessarily claimed, asks how other people voting him justifies forbiddan's intution, states that forbiddan FoS'd him based on little, but votes Vamp based on very little, votes forbiddan. Buys the Vamp/SC explanation (for why forbiddan voted the way she did), says she was going to play the waiting game for what to think of SC, questions what forbiddan meant when she said SC wasn't examining the whole situation. Stays on forbiddan, claims he never wanted a claim from me, just wanted to give me a chance to defend myself, will look at Vamp's case and reread mine. Comes back and unvotes me, votes Vamp, stating that Vamp comes in, posts one liners, and pops out, posting too close together to really be considered lurking. Too little info analysis to be considered town. Corrects Jordan in saying Vamp is male. States he buys Korts' defense, even if it resulted in a rolefish, but it was minor compared to Lowell's. Agrees with rofl's case on BlakAdder, though questions a couple points, tries to draw similarities to forbiddan's case, unvotes vamp, telling him to post more, and votes BlakAdder. Enourages Vamp to actually defend, says armix contradicted himself with the mason claim thing, and then votes armix. States Lowell is still scummy. Wants to see Jordan's thoughts on a forbiddan Korts connection.

BlakAdder: One liners about how rofl is scum. No, literallly, "Everything rofl has said so far points to him being scum"...seriously. One liner about how there could be another doc. Retracts saying he might have been being reckless. Found rofl's behavior to be suspicious, saying assumptions are a part of mafia. Unvotes. Doesn't feel the need to justify his intuition, figures that people make assumptions because if we waited til we were SURE someone was scum deadline would roll around. Cedes intuition point, says he's used to trusting his gut. FoS' vamp, to give him a defense chance. Claims when he got back to the thread everyone said what he found suspicious, and that's just how he plays.

Lowell: Walks in, votes sun tzu, and then asks the masons to out themselves. Responds to iron man saying he doesn't know there are masons, so what's the harm in asking them to out themselves if they don't exist. Also admits it's a rolefish. Explains mason outing logic. Gives kudos to rofl for claiming, votes SC for "shedding crocodile tears". States that having the masons claim is ALWAYS good, ESPECIALLY with an SK since the scum factions can't coordinate. Retorts saying he feels good about his vote on SC. Claims a game where he and his mason buddy claimed D1 that town won, would have outed himself this game had he been a mason, and gets "town vibes" from forbiddan and korts. More pro town vibes, GS and username. States he only has pro town vibes from who he mentioned, and once he gets a few more he'll have the scum team picked out. Explains that because forbiddan has bent over backwards to defend herself she seems pro town, also counters Jordan's point about scum fakeclaiming masons. Doesn't see Jordan as pro town. Sees username as pro town again after agreeing with his post on rolefishing.

Sun Tzu: States rofl has played badly, but mason claim D1 is suicidal for scum. Isn't sure how he feels about early mason outing in multiple NK games, though they are good in 1 NK games. Dislikes rofl's question. Votes Vamp, says the forbiddanlight case looks good too. No reasoning. Answers the allegations for his non reasoning saying he thought it was obvious, and "I'm always screwing myself over" seemed like a confession to him. Discusses the value of vigging. Dislikes the case on armix, saying he saw Korts as protown initially but this case is bad.

-TinVision-: States that anyone wanting rofl's death after his claim should be hit in the head with a baseball bat. Questions BlakAdder's bandwagoning. Asks BA to elaborate on the making assumptions comment. Clarifies the math armix provided. Is satisfied with BlakAdder's answers, feels armix is pro town, wants a closer look at korts, ignores the vamp wagon.

Enlight_Bystand: Shows up page 5, dislikes rofl's question, states the rofl probably didn't do anything brilliant for us, but him and Iron man are probably safe for now. States Lowell has 4 posts mostly defending his call for the mason reveal. States armix has been active, got on Iron for seemingly pushing for a vig reveal, but has been working to get votes off the masons. armix also opposed the idea of a fake mason plan, questions vamp for following rofl's plan and going after activity. Enlight states that he will look at SC, Korts, and Greasy after he eats. Analyzes SC, Greasy Spot, Korts, and forbiddan. States Greasy and forbiddan look odd, Lowell looks scummy in the background of the thread, but no one stands out. Sees the vamp wagon as having moved fast, but there is a decent amount of evidence against him. Forbiddan appears to be addressing points against her, wants to know why rofl sees BlakAdder as scum, and thinks the GS/username thing was benign, but will be something to look back at later. Points out Vamp is at L-3, and doesn't want to put him at L-2.

silence: Finally posts page 7! figures neither armix or strife was scummy with rofl's question, Mason claims were ok, but they should think before asking. Asks about HoS and FoS.

JordanA24: Finally shows up page 9 with an analysis post. Finds SC, forbiddanlight, and vamparific his top suspects. SC for hiding in shadows, a quick wagon disintegration, and the general bending to others wills to look townie, forbiddan for following bandwagons, claiming needlessly and confusing posts. Vamp for being most obviously scummy with the one liners and "I keep screwing myself over". Probably would vote SC if he voted then, Vamp is tempting, possibly forbiddan. FoS' BlakAdder's bandwagoning. States he meant that the claimed mason would be dead before the other scum claimed mason. Feels Vamp wagon is scum driven, as well as forbiddan's, feels Cougar is more scummy than Korts, so the connection should be tested there. Does not see armix as scummy. Sees BlakAdder as a decent wagon, REALLY sees tin vision as scummy and would vote him if it weren't for SC.

Feelings on this to follow shortly.

[forbiddanlight]

armix. Well...to be quite honest, I'm not buying Korts' claims relating to armix. He has been very protown throughout the game from what I can see, especially given his comments relating to the vig which started this whole problem. Heavy lean town.

strife: seems kinda non committal, but towards the later part of the day seems to get in gear. I will look forward to the results on your reread. I lean kinda town here.

Vamparific: Uh yeah...I think it's pretty clear I heavily lean scum here. One liners and "I'm always screwing myself over" does not a defense make. Lowell has a point about how scum defends. The only reason I'm going to

unvote Vamp; FoS Vamp

is because I agree a vig is best to gather information.

Korts: Ah, yes, the other man of the hour. Well, to me, it seems you started off pro town, but you are panicking. I agree with armix that there is a connection between you two, especially given the fact Coug has done the bandwagon thing except on you. I also think it's funny you are trying to push a connection between you and me. The way I see it, when you flip scum, that will be WIFOM'd and possibly confuse the issue enough to save Coug. I would vote you, but I agree also with Jordan that SC has acted scummier. Your early game is your saving grace right now.

username: I don't like how he questions. He seems to set up questions so that no matter what you say is wrong and it will lead to you being scummy. However, I also can't disagree with results, and personally I'd be interested in seeing how Greasy Spot turns up eventually. He did something odd mentioning strife early game but not armix in which was scummier. I don't feel strongly that he's scum cause of that though...either way, this is about username. To be fair, Korts is right you keep reiterating armix's case, but to be fair, others have either. Given your overall play, and how you are actively scum hunting, I lean town.

Greasy Spot: I don't like your early game at all. Username was right in questioning you. But, the way you reacted seems more like a child who didn't get his way than scum. Having a bad attitude and all that as mentioned before. I don't lean much either way with you though, but that vote for username being "too stupid to be townie" raises eyebrows, and you haven't said anything since. Slight scum.

Forbiddanlight: That's for YOU guys to have feelings on. I read my role PM ya know .

SC: What a mess. Blatant bandwagoning throughout, was VERY reluctant to get off roflcopter, even AFTER the claim. But then...avoids the Kortswagon. I realize this is mostly what armix said already, but you can't ignore something like this. I really hope he doesn't play normally like this, because it feels panicked, and some of his later posts feel like they are following Korts' lead.

Vote:StrangerCoug

BlakAdder: Whereas Tin Vision has cleared him, I don't . I won't say he's scum yet, but one liners as I said are a bad game. I want to see improvement in the future. Just because you trust your intuition doesn't mean you don't have to justify it. Seriously, I have this problem all the time, which is why I try not to push cases on intuition (even when it's right). Otherwise, a lot of your postings are weak, and the defense half hearted. I lean scum, but not heavily since he seemed to make an effort when Tin called him out.

FoS BlakAdder

Lowell: Aww, that's nice, you see me as pro town. Guess what? I don't quite agree with how you handle these things. You are hunting for scum, not townies, as others have said. But, you did explain your pro town vibes on a couple people. Can you tell us why you feel pro town on the other 3? (username, GS, and Korts...especially Korts given the latest drama) Slight scum, could change with his explanations for the others.

Tin Vision: Note, I forgot the part where he votes silence for Lurking. BAD. The mod sorts out lurkers. I want to see your closer look on Korts soon, I also want to see why you found BlakAdder's explanations satisfactory. Also, explain why armix is pro town. Otherwise, I see you as slightly scum.

Enlight Bystand: Better late than never, I say. Seems slightly hesitant to outright say anyone is scum, but his observations seem rather well thought out and good. Be a little stronger with your stances, I think, and it might lead somewhere good. Leaning town.

silence: I haven't seen enough of you to make a judgement. Get back here or ask for a replacement.

Jordan: Well, he's not afraid to speak his mind, even when he shows up that late. I like that, and it's also drawing attention to him which is what scum don't want. I like that kind of start. I like a lot of his analysis as well, and definitely seems to be working for the town. I'd like to see more small posts that relate to the current things, rather than mega analysis posts, (because you are more likely to give yourself away as scum in small posts you don't put as much work into), but otherwise, I lean town.


Alright, that took me way too long, but it's done. What does everyone think?

[forbiddanlight]

username: I don't like how he questions. He seems to set up questions so that no matter what you say is wrong and it will lead to you being scummy.

this is an interesting point. please elucidate further.

It reminds me of a cop friend of mine. He used to say he could make you agree to anything. Now, I'm not sure if this is username's intent, because I think he relented before dealing the killing blow in each line of questioning, but it puts me uneasy when you can force answers like that. It leads to bad cases.

[forbiddanlight]

Given your overall play, and how you are actively scum hunting, I lean town.

I think he's protown too. That was a personal comment on his questioning style. I don't like it but it does seem to get results because he uses it responsibly. But, since you want examples.

So do you think there is a case against armlx?

Innocent start, very understandable, given what Greasy said.

when you obviously had decided who you thought was scummier?

Slight leading because he assumes that's what Greasy meant. To be honest, this is still within the realm of reason given what Greasy posted.

Why would the fact that other scumhunting is going on make any difference to its relevance?

This gets iffy. I see Greasy's point here, not username's, and it's a clear leading question that kinda forces Greasy to respond (if he answered the question) in a way that implicated him slightly. I'm probably reading into this point too much though.

Are you suggesting that my delay in voting is scummy? What do you think I stood to gain, as scum, by doing so?

Rhetorical question for armix when he didn't even say that. I think that's kinda a strawman? I dunno my fallacies well.

So what happened between post 17 and post 31 to change your answer to "You ask us which we think is scummiest yet there is no case against Strife so how could I possibly decide right now?"?

Kinda the same strain as the armix question. You begin to see how he's leading Greasy on? (however, because Greasy goes with it rather than protesting and explaining what I think his stance was (I could be wrong), he comes out scummier, which is why while I don't like username's methods, the results are valid)

OK, so let's get back to the original point; why say you can't decide between armlx and strife when you did, in fact, think armlx was scummier?

Alternatively, if you didn't think either was scummier than the other, why specifically say that there was no case against strife?

This is the big shot. Its forces the assumption the change was in that post frame whereas no one said that (but Greasy confirmed this view by not refuting it, which adds a lot of validity to username). It's presenting Greasy with a view he never directly said he had, but worked himself into with username's help. It's forcing a view not explicitly stated, and barely implied. And the way Greasy responded made Greasy look scummy, but it might have been like that no matter how he answered. If I'm wrong, I'm wrong, but I hope I've illustrated my point there now.

[forbiddanlight]

Emphasis by me. Why would you say "when" instead of "if" FL?

Hmm...I think I was trying to paint that in the light that if he flips scum that there would be a lot of WIFOM given how he seems to be trying to force a connection to me, and said when in the sense that when that happens that will follow. However, I admit that was very odd phrasing, and I actually can't adequetely defend it. I did, of course, however mean if. Whether anyone wants to make a case from that phrasing is up to them.

Reading through this game feels like homework of late.

Think typing that post was fun? No, but I felt it had to be done so I myself could get a better read on the situation and also see what others saw, if they disagreed with my summary.

So the case pretty much consists of a single debatable point, at the moment. I think I'll have to do this, even though I think armlx is scum.

This isn't good. If you think someone is scum, vote them, and back it up. If there is no case, then why do you think they are scum? The unvote isn't helping you Korts.

Good job further implicating the connection between you and TinVision, which Jordan already noted had some things implicating. Protip: if you're scum, don't answer questions/points intended for your buddy.

Vote: BlakAdder

Hmm...this kinda seems a little bit like redirecting, buuut, I see his point pretty well, added to the "scumhunting is a lot easier" thing about my post. It better not be too much easier, because that means you are just accepting my logic because I made a big post. You aren't critically analyzing it to see if my points have any credence, such as what strife pointed out (which, by the way, gives strife a little bit more townie points there). But, I've already FoS'd BlakAdder. Let's just say that that feeling hasn't been alleviated.

[forbiddanlight]

Just so you know, you already did vote him. And while I said it made you look scummy the way you responded, I'm attributing part of that to the way the questions were asked. For now, you are a bit lower on my scum list than several others that have been mentioned, FoS'd, and voted by me. However, I do appreciate the elucidation on why you handled it that way.

[forbiddanlight]

Who said I want the unvote to help me? I unvoted because firstly, I'm not achieving anything with my vote on armlx, and secondly because I realized how little material is left in my case on him. I still think he's scum, call it a gut feel, if you want.

Meh, well, you could always try to push it with conviction or something, ala ABR. But, fine, so it's only a gut feel now? Alright, well, being an intuitive player myself I can't fault that, but hasn't intuition or gut already been explained by armix earlier in thread? A reread should give you what you are looking for unless there's something you don't want us to know.

Redirecting? Alright, so you don't want me pointing out scumtells as long as I'm under fire? Got it.

Not what I said. By all means address suspicions while under fire...it was mostly the way you phrased it and the fact you don't seem to be as worried about any accusations brought against you that got me looking at that. It's a weak point though, so I won't really press it, since I do agree BlakAdder looks kinda scummy too.

Tip as one player to another, forbiddanlight, use your quote tags like this: when you start quoting, you initially have only this:[ quote ] (without spaces, of course) but to make it clear who you're quoting, do it like this: [ quote="My Awesome Self" ] (again, without spaces). It makes everyone's job a lot easier. In action:

I knew this, it's just I usually get lazy with quoting. But thanks for the advice though.

[forbiddanlight]

Roflcopter, can you explain your case on armix more than obvscum, or point to a page where you have done so?

[forbiddanlight]

This is completely unrelated to the actual game, but I think that Greasy Spot needs to make "vote: iamausername" his signature. Just a suggestion

[forbiddanlight]

FoS silence

. That post reeks of such horrid non committalness I don't even know WHAT to say. Are you even reading the thread? There is scumminess all over the place! I mean, you have no opinion about the current Korts/armix debate? Or maybe the Greasy Spot/username thing? Or basically ANY of the discussion going on thus far? I wasn't leaning anyway on you before since you barely posted. In one post though, I lean scum on you.

[forbiddanlight]

I already did. It's on Stranger Coug. I like that one better because he's shown himself to be relatively scummy too. That could change quickly if silence keeps that act up.

[forbiddanlight]

fl, you have a vote, use it.

[forbiddanlight]

Good show. I always love seeing a fresh perspective.

[forbiddanlight]

I don't. We've been jumping in and out of vig discussions all game. It doesn't need to be discussed. He was nice before. Maybe people will respond to the ruder admonishment.

[forbiddanlight]

FL 303-304: And I also hate posts like this. TL;DR. Blinding us with text, a la vollkan. FL, we don't need a summation of everything everyone's done in the game. Give us your top couple of suspects, and why. Also, if necessary, point out a popular wagon you disagree with and why.

You should know how much a summary opens people's eyes. It's as much for me as it is for everyone. The fact that I SEPARATE my thoughts from the summary, meaning all you really have to read is the thoughts section if you want a tl;dr version, and also my list of suspects, should show that I genuinely consider that a good move to get my thoughts together and also tell my opinions of everyone with evidential backup. But, whatever, some people don't like megaposts, and I can see where they'd be scummy. I just still felt the need to do it to get my thoughts together.

[forbiddanlight]

That's an opinion, Coug. It doesn't affect his alignment either way. And in the end, discuss it after game. Seriously, you seem to be panicking, throwing accusations around for such little things. If I weren't already voting you I'd vote you now. and an "I've got my eye on you" still indicates suspicion. If it's not scummy, why are you looking at him?

[forbiddanlight]

I don't see a good reason to lynch armlx or iamausername. Korts seems somewhat scummy, but I'd rather lynch SC or vamparific.

Roflcopter, we don't decide who the vig kills. The vig does. Just talk about who you think is scummy and why.

Good idea Sun Tzu. Why DON'T you talk about who you think is scummy and why. Why is Korts scummy? Why would you rather lynch SC? (I think you already addressed vamp.) IF you already addressed these, sorry. But I'd like to see answers.

I'm ok with BlakAdder too I guess, but I think StrangerCoug is the best choice.

Again, why? Please answer these questions.

[forbiddanlight]

If discussion about how this game should be played and has so far been played is forbidden, what IS ok to be posted? Claims, votes, that's it?

What about me? Oh...wait. And you are misinterpreting. The only "forbidden" discussion is about the meta argument of N0 vig kills and general discussion OF the vig kill since it could out the vig in a way, as armix pointed out earlier. What we should discuss is the flow of the game, votes, reactions to votes, reactions to posts, and everything you'd NORMALLY discuss in mafia to find scum. I really don't like how you are trying to make it look narrower than that. The vig discussion really should be taken to MD because of the fact that not only does it put the vig role in danger (because the more it's discussed, the more likely an accidental breadcrumb is dropped), but it's also tiresome and filled with opinions that aren't precisely relevant to the game.

[forbiddanlight]

Well

FRIDGE

.

Unvote, vote Tin Vision

. He was scummy when I last checked the game, and he hasn't done much to assuage that. Now, moving right along, what the

FRIDGE

!?

[forbiddanlight]

First, I apologize for my profanity earlier. It's rather annoying to see your scummiest suspect end up being the vig. But, stuff happens. Moving along, I feel a lot better about the TinVision thing, with a possible link to BlakAdder (IIRC, Tinvision "cleared" BlakAdder for being cooperative with his questioning whereas there were loose ends.) I'm on the fence with Korts. I don't know why, but I'm beginning to feel he might not be the play. Just emotion. I'm sure if I did another analysis of what happened between page 13 and now I'd find this, but I'd rather avoid another tl;dr thing. I may do a feelings post soon though without the block of summary text.

[forbiddanlight]

Why is Korts better than Tin Vision or Blak Adder? Wasn't the majority of your case on Korts a percieved link between him and SC? Well, SC is the vig, so far without counterclaim. So, that's gone basically. The rest of the case isn't as solid, though it's there. So, tell me why Tin Vision or Blak Adder aren't good lynches? Or someone else of your choosing?

[forbiddanlight]

Actually, if some people would be willing to vote armlx, that'd be all kinds of great.

Why? You probably stated the case earlier, but this seems rather OMGUSy. I want answers from both of you, please.

[forbiddanlight]

Um...I think you need to vig Vamp, assuming his replacement doesn't fix the massively bad play. But, otherwise, it is of course up to you. I just heavily favor vamp vig.

[forbiddanlight]

armix, you never answered my question. You neither, Korts. I'm not seein your respective cases.

[forbiddanlight]

Sorry, here is why: Korts has been all over the place vote wise, and kept digging at the vig issue.

That was your case on Korts then? So why is that better than the other options? Not just the ones I mentioned (though they were scummy), but is there anyone else you are looking at? I will say that given what you say there, Korts does look bad.

[forbiddanlight]

This looks like a logical fallacy but I have no clue what the name is. Not quite a strawman - it's just an impossible to answer question. He said Korts was a good lynch, and you want him to essentially 'prove' that he's a better lynch than Tin and Blak Adder? If you think Tin or Blak Adder is a better lynch, it's your job to provide a superior case.

I admit I phrased it badly. It ended up being a somewhat leading question. REally, what I meant to see was what the case on Korts actually was. It's been answered. However, I did press the question about why the case was better than any others, and you are right, the burden of proof should be on me. I suspect that there is potentially a Tin Vision Blak Adder pair given the fact that Tin Vision was trying to clear BlakAdder after asking him a few questions that Blak answered unsatisfactorily to everyone except Tin himself. Blak has been scummy in his own right with the way he's been playing with mostly one liners and no real analysis. I think bandwagoning is in there somewhere as well. I think the Tin/Blak case is superior to the Korts case because of all that.


Also, don't like Meurrto for the reasons stated. Even if the claimed masons are somewhat useless in helping town (and I'm still out on roflcopter. He's arrogant, but from what I hear, he's always right eventually), there is no need to kill off townies with the town NK when the scum will eventually take care of it given their win condition (i.e, SK)

[forbiddanlight]

Ugh...I don't like this Korts. Not at all. It's all well and good to vote your gut, but to expect others to vote with you because of it? Not gonna work. Case or die. I'm fine with my vote on Tin, but BlakAdder and Korts seem to be good plays as well. Also Muerto, but not as much.

[forbiddanlight]

@FL: We get it. You're voting Tin, but you think Korts and I are scummy. You can quit including that in every post you make now.

Actually, adding Korts was new. And also, I provided an explanation in the last post of why I think you and Tin are scummy.

"Case or die", forbiddan? This is BS. You say it's okay to vote based on gut feeling, yet you declare that I shouldn't ask anyone else to vote armlx based on my gut feeling? What point would there be in voting at all if I would be content to be the only one voting armlx?

Fallacy. I shouldn't have said case or die I guess, though that may be your case if you only have your gut for cases. And I'm saying you should ask them two...AFTER you've figured out why your gut dislikes armix. A gut feeling isn't a case. Pointing to what might have gotten you uneasy is. Even if it's a meta argument, it's better than "I'm voting my gut". You should know that.

Don't you think this is a bit harsh?

Not at all. I think it's a healthy attitude so that we don't get complacent.

[forbiddanlight]

Well, since it appears more people are interested in a BlakAdder lynch than a Tin Vision lynch, I will

unvote, vote BlakAdder

. Really, both of them are fine lynches by my sights.

[forbiddanlight]

Hey, when is deadline anyway? seems we kinda died.

[forbiddanlight]

Vote Count 8

Korts - (3) {iamusername, armix, strife220}

silence - (2) {Sun Tzu, -TinVision-}

iamusername - (1) {Greasy Spot}

StrangerCoug - (1) {JordanA24}

armix - (1) {roflcopter}

-TinVision- - (1) {forbiddanlight}

Lowell - (1) {StrangerCoug}

Not Voting: {BlakAdder, silence, Vamparific, Iron Man, The Fonz, Korts, Lowell}.

With 17 left alive it will take 9 to lynch.

To prevent this game from dragging I am setting a deadline. The deadline will be Tuesday 29th July at 2:00 am GMT.

The deadline lynch rules are that the player with the most votes will be lynched. In the case of a tie the player who had the most votes for the longest amount of time. In the unlikely circumstance of no one voting the game will go to night without a lynch.

The player who would be lynched based on the current vote count will have their name bolded.

Prods have been sent to JordanA24, Greasy Spot and -TinVision-.
_________________

Yeah there is. Here.

[forbiddanlight]

But, it's not for awhile. We're fine.

[forbiddanlight]

I feel that there is almost certainly a connection between Blakadder and Tin (now Orangepenguin), and it's not particularly likely to be a Mason Connection... Tbh, I actually feel Penguin is a better place for my vote, despite the bandwagon on Adder, I'm more sure on Penguin being scum. Vote: Penguin

I agree with this, but I want to see Penguin attempt a defense before I hop back to him. The Tin wagon didn't gain much steam, and since I also kinda felt there was a connection between Tin and Blak, I'm fine with lynching either of them.

[forbiddanlight]

unvote silence

,

vote:BlakAdder

- He has contributed nothing to the game, jumping on several big wagons, and post things irrelevant to the game, and doesn't even back up his posts when he does post anything significant.

Good choice...but I can't help but wonder if you are attempting a bus. Also, what other suspicions do you have in this game? Seriously, everyone has done at least SOMETHING scummy. I wouldn't mind seeing a more wide range of thoughts so we can have an idea of your stance.

[forbiddanlight]

Everyone!? Please explain this, because I think this is a stretch and I can't keep track of what 17 people have said in a thread.

I'll do this from memory and give a really REALLY condensed version of possible cases.

You yourself have been hopping bandwagon to bandwagon

rofl early game asserted Iron was scum with no proof and jumped on armix for inquiring on it.

Iron Man has been in and out seemingly jumping on the newest bandwagon (I could be wrong about this. But he hasn't been around to post many thoughts).

BlakAdder has been bandwagony as hell and not good on explanation...oh, and willing to piggy back my logic earlier

Tin Vision cleared Blak far too easily with what I see as unsatisfactory answers

armix...ok, actually, there is no real armix case

Korts also exhibited bandwagon behavior, and then there is the eternal armix debate :S

I had my earlier post where I'd jump on a wagon if it gained steam. I've probably done more that makes myself look bad.

Muerrto wants to kill the claimed masons, as well as directing which one should be killed. (and Vamp was bandwagon happy as hell, no explanations)

strife actually seems to have been relatively on the level as well

IAUN asked leading questions that seemed to force some preconcieved answers

Greasy, well, um...just the behavior has been horrid, yet somehow consistent with his meta. The OMGUS didn't help

OP/Tin: Well, I don't expect him to make a case on himself, but there is that lurktastic behavior on Tin's part, and then clearing BA based on some questions that got weak answers I thought. OP focusing on just the BA wagon didn't help.

silence doesn't seem to really be playing. His few posts are more set up focused than anything


The Fonz hasn't been around much, and his posts don't seem to add much. It's weak, but I kinda like English better. Fonz broke in with a good analysis, then kinda petered off.

Lowell, the town vibes thing, the lets out the masons with multiple scum groups, the random voting rather late D1.

Sun Tzu, unreasoned bandwagons a few times, lurktastic behavior.

I mean, these are all really cliff's notes, and by no means should be used to change anyone's mind, but most of the people this game have shown scummy behavior in at least one instance.

I like the idea of this post, not the execution (ie. Post more details = good).

Hmm? What was bad about the execution? And what details do you want?

[forbiddanlight]

roflcopter said Iron Man was town, not scum.

You knew what I meant, lol. That was mistype, lol. I did of course mean to say he asserted town. It doesn't look good without the mason context. Add that to the...uniqueness of his play style that lends itself just a wee bit to tunnel vision and yeah....

[forbiddanlight]

Well, would have been nice if he posted here...oh helll...do we finish the lynch or do we take a chance on a BA claim? If so, how do we decide who will replace him if he has a believeable claim?

[forbiddanlight]

FoS: JordanA24 for refusing to allow ting =) to speak his mind about the game before he gets killed.

He's giving him til the 26th, by virtue of we all are pretty much ready to kill BA. Not worth an FoS in my opinion.

[forbiddanlight]

I'll vote extension when BA comes back if he comes back with a good claim. D1 is 30 pages already. Is there REALLY THAT MUCH MORE TO SAY!?

[forbiddanlight]

Oh, we're celebrating today?

Apparently not. BA is still no showing here at least.

[forbiddanlight]

Well, that's basically sealed lynch. Should have claimed it like Greasy Spot did in that one game he got nommed for a scummy in.

[forbiddanlight]

What?

I was reading the scummy noms today and Greasy claimed regular townie in a rather amusing manner.

[forbiddanlight]

Don't you mean Vigkill?

Slip Up?

Be pretty hard to lynch on your lonesome. I doubt it's a slip, lol.

[forbiddanlight]

A lot of people keep trying to portray mildly incorrect linguistic choices as scum slips.

Can't say I'm a fan.

Second the quoting for truthery .

[forbiddanlight]

yay! But, you misspelled BlakAdder...

[forbiddanlight]

Well, I'm actually a little less suspicious of Ting/GS myself (though I didn't suspect them much in the first place). Those leading questions were pretty funny and I wish I hadn't dropped that so fast. I'm not sure what to think of armix, I still don't see that great a case. SC is pretty much confirmed, and rofl and Iron Man are mostly confirmed. The Tin Vision/BlakAdder connection obviously didn't play out, but I think I'll be rereading tin because I still don't like the vibes I'm getting.

[forbiddanlight]

I'm surprised the masons and I didn't get killed last night, actually.

I'm not. They aren't harmful til later game. And if enough people think like Muerrto, there won't even be wasted night kills for the scum cause we'll do their work for them :S.

[forbiddanlight]

Good catch. I still gotta relook at tin when I get home again today.

[forbiddanlight]

iron man didn't talk to me at all last night. i'm a sad panda

Traumatized mason . (check out worst role ideas thread I think )

[forbiddanlight]

Tin case doesn't work out with BA as town. Nevermind.

Vote Muerrto

for the same reasons I've been wanting to lynch his ass all game.

[forbiddanlight]

Well fridge .

[forbiddanlight]

Remind me to replace DGB sometime. I'm interested.

Same here. I pride myself on my chaotic insanity, and I think I could get in that kinda mood.

Okay, this ting-Fonz back-and-forth is just too big a wall of text for me. A very brief skim of it makes me think that this is another one of those almost pointless arguments over a single point, with unintentional misrepresentation that the other gets outraged about, and so on. I'm too tired to read it now, but I promise I will comment on it tomorrow.

This is pretty much my thinking. I also favor Ting in the argument, but I also kinda skimmed it.

[forbiddanlight]

We could deduce the second from the first...

The favoring Ting from agreeing with Korts? Korts didn't take a side I don't think.

[forbiddanlight]

What Fonzie means is that he can deduce you skimmed because you favor ting in the argument. Get it? Yeah, he's a tricky little barstud, eh?

Well, he should have said you could deduce the third from the second, since there were 3 things to address in that single quote.

[forbiddanlight]

I didn't quote anything that said 'I agree with Korts' though, did I?

This is pretty much my thinking.

I also favor Ting in the argument, but I also kinda skimmed it.

And I was quoting Korts.

[forbiddanlight]

And I cut out the Korts quote, leaving two points...

It's still implied. But seriously, I have one question. Why the hell are we arguing this anyway?

[forbiddanlight]

If you really must know, I killed Lowell, and it looks to me like sun tzu and iamausername killed each other. But that's a question I don't like.

This is true.

Wait, as far as I understood, Sun Tzu was targeted by the mafia in general. Why are you so sure it was IAUN specifically who killed him?

Mostly the flavor saying that IAUN went to kill Sun Tzu and Sun Tzu went to kill IAUN. I guess it wouldn't be a certainty, because flavor is flavor, but I can see where armix would get this.

[forbiddanlight]

Korts is right here. Without a tracker/watcher or RB the mod would not need to keep track of who is doing the killing.

Never said he wasn't right, just saying I saw where you were coming from.

[forbiddanlight]

methinks Meurrto is a bit panicky. Redirection, misrepresentation, and subtle appeals to emotion? I do think I'll

Confirm vote: Muerrto

[forbiddanlight]

I understand Armix's attack on how calling your own death a mislynch is an appeal to emotion, but I also think it's not a very good attack because I say the same thing as town and scum (saying my own lynch is a mislynch).

It's still icing given the rest of the case, which was indeed well put by OP. At least that portion of it.

[forbiddanlight]

If you are town, self-preservation should be an important enough issue in itself. In fact, that applies regardless of affiliation. Which is why i find your behaviour odd. As far as an explanation goes, i can wait until tomorrow, as it seems the consensus for today is with Muerrto anyway.

BM

Hi there. Actually, self preservation isn't really that important for non power roled town. Heck, even power roled town still has to put finding and lynching scum first (which in itself is preservation) A townie only looking out for themselves becomes useless quick except for their number. It also makes them scummy since the scum's game IS self preservation. To suggest that self preservation is an important issue with town is just wrong.

Oh, and also, Muerrto's analysis could provide some big hints no matter his alignment. I have...recently learned that more information before a lynch is generally better.

[forbiddanlight]

BM, you're saying that armlx is deliberately trying to set himself up as a lynch candidate, just because he's willing to give Muerrto a last opportunity at saying his opinion? Why are you so afraid of Muerrto's last words?

This, kinda. I mean, if someone was about to be lynched naming me as their top suspect, rather than railroad the lynch and leave people wondering, I'd have them say their piece. I could use the night to construct a defense against it (or even defend that day), and come out looking townier pending a good defense. This is good for town and scum, really.

[forbiddanlight]

I disagree. Where is the value in a case being produced, if the best case scenario is that is completely refuted? It seems ridiculously awkward from where i'm sitting. Not to mention a major waste of time (although admittedly, we have plenty atm). I'll continue reading.

The value is that self preservation you cite. Dealing with cases strengthens one's position, or weakens it irreparably, possibly catching scum. Clever scum might break a case and get stronger positioned, but generally there will be a screw up somewhere. I said it was good for scum to entertain cases, but only if they think they can keep themselves above suspicion afterwards.

[forbiddanlight]

Perhaps. But then i would have thought that, if Armlx was going to refute said case against him from Muerrto, he would already have done so. But, as i said earlier, this does seem like the kind of thing i'd expect from Armlx meta-wise.

I don't know armix's meta, so I'm just going with a general base. But wait, did Muerrto already post a case on armix? I think I missed it :S.

[forbiddanlight]

I don't get BM's point at all. Armix said he wanted to wait for Muerrto's analysis before considering the hammer. I would have considered it scummy for him to hammer without letting Muerrto have a final say, regardless of what Muerrto flipped.

This, as I learned recently, lol.

[forbiddanlight]

So, anyway, how are you doing on your reread, BM? You seemed to have gotten sidetracked by discussing armix's motives.

[forbiddanlight]

To hell with everything. I know myself well enough to be able to foresee days of procrastination over the analysis, so I'll just hammer.

unvote, vote: Muerrto

THERE WERE STILL QUESTIONS DAMMIT! NOOO!

(oh wait...maybe there weren't)

Actually, thinking on it, there really were, ya coulda at least waited for his response to armix.

(YAY META HYPOCRISY! I'm sure you enjoy it SC )

[forbiddanlight]

To hell with everything. I know myself well enough to be able to foresee days of procrastination over the analysis, so I'll just hammer.

unvote, vote: Muerrto

THERE WERE STILL QUESTIONS DAMMIT! NOOO!

(oh wait...maybe there weren't)

Actually, thinking on it, there really were, ya coulda at least waited for his response to armix.

(YAY META HYPOCRISY! I'm sure you enjoy it SC )

Don't play dumb, fl, Muerrto's had more than one chance to address what he wanted to address. Anyway, my count says I've only put him to L-1.

Actually, it's a joke because of something that happened in another game I'm in. I really shouldn't have said anything, but it still works. To be fair, I actually think you might be right...I'll see if there is a muerrto post between.

[forbiddanlight]

Yep, fair enough. I'd hammer but I'm already voting him.

[forbiddanlight]

Isn't Muerrto supposed to be dead now?

[forbiddanlight]

Well then, it seems we have a second doctor.

Aye.

Fonz and Korts are at the top of my re-read list right now.

This as well. Korts pushed hard on armix, and I really didn't like Fonz case on Ting.

How on planet Earth did you mistake me for farside22!?

I kinda wondered that myself, but it was worth a laugh . Thanks Strife

[forbiddanlight]

I really didn't like Fonz case on Ting.

Why not?

I only skimmed, but it was part misrepresentation, and a lot of stretching. Honestly, I don't think GS was distancing.

[forbiddanlight]

I'm still around myself. Haven't had much opportunity to do the relooking at I promised (college started this week). My best opportunity was probably yesterday and I screwed that up. Sorry.

[forbiddanlight]

FoS: Everybody that's just sitting there. Give us decent cases already!

Practice what you preach then. Realize that for many of us college and/or school has just gotten back into swing. We have to readjust, so we are naturally L/A. I have nothing tomorrow so I'll probably be able to dedicate and actual block of time. I know I have posts in other games, but they aren't well thought out, they are just kinda quick responses. Here I need to relook at several people, so I'm going to need an actual block of time rather than being in and out.

[forbiddanlight]

I'm sorry about my ridiculously L/A. I've really been meaning to do that reread, and I'll see if I can do it now, but I probably won't PBPA it, just decide between the two people I suspected here. I'll do this now.

[forbiddanlight]

Well, to be honest, Korts was scummiest D1 by jumping all over the place on wagons and pushing armix who we now know is town on pure gut. Also notable is that most of the people Korts wagoned flipped town or are presumed town. I'm the iffyest so I'm the only one who can say everyone in that statement, but still it's a good majority. Either way, you can be wrong often, it's just notable. Also, I'd complain about his analysis laziness but I'm having the same problem.

Fonz...has been consistent in suspecting Greasy, and their fight feels rather town vs. town. Given what I said about Korts, I could definitely get behind a Korts lynch though. It may not be much, but it is a bit weird to wagon so shamelessly D1, and then sit idly by to push other mislynches...so

vote:Korts

[forbiddanlight]

@fl: feel free to read the games linked in my wiki, I usually employ vote-hopping early on in the game to pressure people on almost irrelevant matters. It's my way of starting discussion. My take is that a vote is a versatile tool and it's made to be used. Also, I don't see "they've mostly turned town" to be a valid point.

To me, it's a scum tell in the sense of throwing shit around to see what sticks. Of course, I don't have a wide enough data sample to be sure it's a scum tell, but so far it's seemed to serve me well.

I could be wrong, but there's also the fact you seemed to kinda stop trying after D1 :S.

[forbiddanlight]

I haven't got that far yet (I'm stopping today at Page 8. I'm weak lol), but I know you aren't part of our mason group, and the only other claim I've seen is forbiddanlight claiming townie.

yep. Cause this was back when I thought claiming townie was kinda meaningless. Now I know better .

[forbiddanlight]

A townie claim doesn't change anything.

If done too early, it makes it easier for scum to look for power roles.

This. Basically I appreciate the importance more. Where I played before it kinda didn't seem to matter as much

[forbiddanlight]

You were the one who said it doesn't change anything, and I was giving a counterexample.

(Kokusho's Gambit involves cop fakeclaiming tracker, but there is no tracker in this game, so we can safely assume they don't lie. That's for another time, though.)

(Lie as in claim vanilla, in a surprising and shocking twist of fate)

If you are at L-1 or L-2 (to be fair I was at L-3)...you aren't gonna lie and claim vanilla. This is basically when you'd claim ANYWAY, so I think it's safe to say that I'm either scum or what I say I am. Also, if you claim vanilla and somehow get out of the lynch, later claiming a power role won't exactly cut ice :S.

[forbiddanlight]

There are power roles that, in usual circumstances, need not be claimed; bulletproof for instance. But you're mostly right. My point was, claiming townie wouldn't change anything insofar as that day's lynch and suspicions go. This reminds me to go look at your wagon, because the initial pressure was pretty fierce, but loosened considerably in reply to your claim, which shouldn't have drawn this reaction from the town.

It was actually the redirect to Vamp that did it. Kinda sucks I was wrong though . There's also the fact the only real anti town thing I did was reserve a place on the SC wagon. But feel free to relook at it.

[forbiddanlight]

Well, not much to say here. I'm behind a Korts lynch. I will add I'm not so sure I like TS' generalizations and will be looking closer at his predecessor and himself.

[forbiddanlight]

Well...crap. Ok then.

Unvote.

To be honest, I could see a Jordan/BM lynch just as well. IIRC Jordan would pop in every so often with pseudoanalysis and then leave for days at a time :S.

Vote: BM

[forbiddanlight]

Alright, I'm gonna buffer the doctor. Sorry Ting (I HATE making choices like this , but PR beats potential VT)

Unvote, vote Ting

[forbiddanlight]

Remember that a vote for Ting is a vote for Greasy Spot. If you think he's scum, you have to think Greasy spot and IAUN were distancing D1. I really don't think that's true.

I'm aware. I could barely see it just because of the fact that Greasy dropped it seemingly without cause. But maybe I'm just lazy.

[forbiddanlight]

Like strife said, the case on me boils down to 'GS looked like he was distancing.' Korts and FL don't seem that convinced of it all and are just plain hopping, but it's too close to deadline for me to raise a hoohah over it, there wouldn't be time to raise a counter wago

I don't like it myself. I just think it's better to lynch you than a claimed doctor. It's a heiarchy. Hell, I'd support lynching me to save a claimed PR.

[forbiddanlight]

Vote Deadline Extension

I'd like to not be forced into a rush lynch.

[forbiddanlight]

Unvote

. I'm not sure where to go at this point. But at least we have another week to decide :S.

[forbiddanlight]

Oh seriously, what the hell people? Are we just going to waste this week too? I guess I'll see what I can do tomorrow, since I'm kinda tired of PBPA today.

[forbiddanlight]

I only unvoted because I was hoping there would be more discussion in the week the mod very graciously gave us. But no one could be bothered, so in the end I have to go back to

Vote Ting

protecting Korts.

[forbiddanlight]

I only unvoted because I was hoping there would be more discussion in the week the mod very graciously gave us. But no one could be bothered, so in the end I have to go back to

Vote Ting

protecting Korts.

Why not vote Fonz or BM, who also have votes on them?

BM doesn't have enough votes. I don't think the Fonz does either, and I'm not sure he's the play either :S.

[forbiddanlight]

It's still 2 days until deadline, and Korts isn't actually highly likely to get lynched. Voting to 'protect' him right now is BS - vote someone you think is scum, and if it gets closer to deadline and Korts is the vote leader, then vote appropriately.

Fair enough.

Unvote, vote BM

But there is the fact that everyone seems to be no where, so Korts may end up needing to be protected anyway.

[forbiddanlight]

Yep. I didn't get good vibes from Jordan and BM didn't do anything except coast.

[forbiddanlight]

BM didn't do anything except start reading up and leave the game when he thought Jordan had come back. Although he hadn't, BM hasn't posted since then, so I presume he hasn't realized he's still in this game. The "coasting" accusation I don't find valid.

It's fair enough to see coasting as invalid, because I understand BM thought he was a temp replacement, but given how little he put in along with Jordan's relative scumminess, I think a BM lynch is a scum lynch.

[forbiddanlight]

I see Ting and Fonz as town vs. town to be honest. I like a BM lynch...but with a replacement, it would be both unsporting and also unwise to push for that lynch til farside has spoken since she might be able to defend herself, or at least present her views to be examined if we lynch her later. So...

Unvote

...I'm kinda stumped now .

[forbiddanlight]

But I don't think either of them are scum :S.

[forbiddanlight]

Here's a good reason: I think one of my suspects, strife220, is trying to deflect votes off ting =) and on orangepenguin for very weak reasoning; therefore I think the former two are scumbuddies. ting =) must be dead for that to be proven.

Well, whatever. Since, you are the vig and Ting will die no matter what it seems, and I really don't feel strongly about either case...and I DO want silence dead, I will

Vote Ting =)

[forbiddanlight]

You know farside, I DID mention tin vision before in my wall of text. read everything next time. And overall this game is boring. Nothing interesting has happened for two days except more deaths. And now we lack a cop. Obviously I was wrong on Iam because I didn't follow my gut. My bad.

I really dislike this second part of the same post. I mean instead of scum hunting this is the equivilent of lurker lynching. Granted Vamp was not a great player, but there was more going on then just vamp's bad play

You weren't there. There really wasn't that much to go off of.

Really? But didn't you kind of flip flop back there a bit on this case. What changed your mind back to him as scum?

Bullshit. I never flipped OFF of Muerrto scum, I just thought I saw better, and expected Vamp to be vigged anyway.

IE: My case is failling lets BW someone else

More like the case was based off of one as the others buddy.

You know what? Screw this. You are strawmanning the hell out of me and you know it. I'm going to

Vote farside

. I was kinda hoping you'd be town. You aren't.

[forbiddanlight]

Yeah, the fact you are strawmanning me again. I'll address the entirity of your post later. I already TOLD you the post that has the Tin Vision feel. Wall of text post 305 I believe. Go read now, and quit trying to bullshit another mislynch for the win.

[forbiddanlight]

You're being awfully panicky, and given it's LYLO, it's too early in the day for a vote to my liking.

Panicky? Have you been paying attention in any of the other games we've been together in? Either way, that's far from panicky for me. That's me getting pissed because I'm misrepresented.

Also, I think in that same post I have something on Jordan, and there are other posts where I dislike the way he's doing things.

[forbiddanlight]

Hmm, then I got this crossed with another game. I think I got confused with Polygamist...and also another person. Either way though, I changed my mind since he kinda didn't CONTINUE with the pro townness. Either that or I'm confirming bias because I didn't want to lynch to doctor so I voted Jordan/BM/you.

I still don't like how you presented me and the Fonz, and I'll be interested in seeing what you say about everyone else. I'll completely counter your list later, since I'm leaving for a place in about an hour.

[forbiddanlight]

Lowell was likely an innocent read. I can see OP being a guilty read, but to be honest I'd expect him to come right out with that at that point, especially when he was under threat of vig.

[forbiddanlight]

Um...Korts did notice. The only way to be mod confirmed is to be an innocent child or...dead, lol.

[forbiddanlight]

Yeah, I was trying to be tactful, some ladies don't take well to being told they're dead Wink

Well, I'd rather be notified of this fact if I made a gaffe rather than clueless. Though I'd probably pick it up from mod confirmed. And, with a week before deadline, I suppose I need to eventually get the godforsaken refutation up. I hate hate HATE doing these things .

[forbiddanlight]

Actually, I'm leaning towards forbiddanlight. Pressure dropped from her wagon way too fast D1, I seem to recall.

And how was that my fault? I can't help it if people decided there were better things to lynch. Maybe I successfully defended myself for once? Can you at least come up with a REAL reason to lynch me rather than something I had no control over?

[forbiddanlight]

Not your fault, at all. I'm just going to go back to take a look at your wagon again. Something fishy was going on there. Also, do you really think people are always lynched over things they have full control over?

Not always. But how much more often are townies lynched for such reasons than scum?

I'm fine with you looking at my wagon. That was a horribly scummy thing for me to say, I understand. Of course, it kinda fit with my logic and laziness. Either way, I'm not the play. We are in lylo, correct?

[forbiddanlight]

After the next vote count, I'm going to hop on this wagon.

I actually agree...but I plan to hold back til about 1 or 2 days before deadline. I'd rather get farside lynched because the way she painted me and Fonz (and didn't analyze anyone else?) feels like she's trying to put together a mislynch.

[forbiddanlight]

I've surely posted more. I claimed when asked, I haven't been lurking. If you wanted me to do more, you should've said something. Confused

...is there any reason you can't think for yourself? This actually makes me change my vote. This is reaction in it's purest form. "Oh, I'm not looking townie, better listen to the confirmed to blend in". You need to be PROACTIVE at town and furthering the goals of town victory without prompting. Scum caught out are MUCH more likely to toe the line of what someone says, saying "They should have said something" when they still find you suspicious.

Unvote, Vote OP

[forbiddanlight]

Better listen to the confirmed? Um, well, they did say step up your game or be lynched. I am town. I don't want them to mislynch me. Doing half of what they asked (claiming, but I haven't really stepped up a notch yet) isn't really not thinking for myself. I thought I had stepped my game, but I guess I didn't. Nobody said anything until I got voted, and now you are jumping on the wagon. YOU are not confirmed. Chances are that you are scum. I HAVE been thinking for myself. I don't know how claiming when asked and then saying "you should have told me I haven't stepped up my game" makes me not thinking.


SC, who do I think is suspicious? Well, fl for starters. Also fonz looks kind of suspicious now that ting flipped scum. And I guess I could be a little OMGUS, and think, if Korts did fake-claim, that he's scum. But isn't he confirmed? If he isn't, then I think he's scummy, but if he is cleared, then no.

Hi, this is called OMGUS. You have absolutely no case on me. You just want to say I'm scummy because I've caught you. The "I'm listening to a confirmed" defense is UTTER CRAP.

[forbiddanlight]

You're just as confirmed as I am. I know my role. Obviously, I just said I had no case on you. I need to go back, and see if there is even one. I thought I was going to be lynched. Rather than make a case, and get to the last page to find out I was lynched, I voted first, present a case second.

I'm sure. But I never said I or you was confirmed. What I'm saying is claiming that you were listening to confirmed for your obvious "look pro town" behavior is a BS defense. And honestly, how many votes do I have on me to make me a better wagon?

[forbiddanlight]

1. Do you believe Korts is town?


2. If so, and given that we have a mason and a confirmed vig, that means that ONLY ONE OTHER CLAIMED VANILLA IS TOWN, from your claimed perspective (and mine). Who do you think that is?

1.It's...entirely possible.

2. Well, I know I'm vanilla. The other vanilla is likely...strife or you, Fonz. If Korts is lying (entirely possible), then it would be you two as the other vanillas.

[forbiddanlight]

If SC hits scum. That's a big if.

[forbiddanlight]

Well, it seems moot to me til and F3 or F4 situation. As long as we lynch the other scum we'll be fine to then. We can push aside the WIFOM of Korts for awhile.

[forbiddanlight]

Oh, yeah, I'd like to mention I'm going V/LA starting Thursday, but I'm going to be low activity most of this week anyway. I should be back monday.

[forbiddanlight]

Wow, I love it when scum admit they are scum through really stupid claims.

[forbiddanlight]

Well, thanks for shooting me. Seriously *rolls eyes*. Half want the scum to win after that move, but whatever. (If I misread the flavor, I apologize now)

[forbiddanlight]

Well, that was interesting. Why me the day before lylo, SC? I really don't think I was the best choice.

[forbiddanlight]

Wait a sec...I was right about BM/farside /Jordan, wasn't I? Well, at least my scumdar isn't COMPLETELY broken!

[forbiddanlight]

Your quick vote that day, which was also a LYLO situation, was what set me off. Sorry.

I honestly didn't notice it was lylo, lol. Or I don't think I did. And I'm usually an impulsive voter regardless of the situation anyway. At least my vote was for scum .