Minvitational 8 - OVER before 611

[Guardian]

Vote Count 3

cicero[4] (Shanba, Simenon, Adel, Oman)
Oman[3] (Erg0, vollkan, shaft.ed)
Adel[2] (The Fonz, cicero)
vollkan[1] (Jitsu)
BillyTwilight[1] (curiouskarmadog)
curiouskarmadog[1] (BillyTwilight)


Not Voting[0] ()

[vollkan]

Oh it will, will it?

Would it have been better to vote him? What do you think? Why do you see it as neutral? Scum are more likely to want to float under the radar. So doing something cheeky and frivolous, like an annoying "let's lynch cicero har har har" is more likely to come from a townie than a scum. It's a very weak town tell. If you think it's scummy for me to think that then by all means, please join the wagon. Be warned, however, that I think you thinking my opinion is scummy is in fact scummy so voting me will result in me voting you. Not OMGUS, but because I will disapprove of your vote on a townie for not immediately jumping on someone with a vote that is more likely annoying than scummy.

I disagree.

This is the sort of logic that drives lurker lynching - "Scum want to fly under the radar". I'm not convinced that there is any broad correlation between going under the radar and somebody being scum. And the whole thing is WIFOM anyway - since the very attitude of "Scum will rationally want to go undercover" gives scum a rational motivation

not

to hide in the shadows.

In short, silly-buggery is a nulltell.

Oh, and I would love to know why somebody thinking your opinion is scummy is scummy. Saying it beforehand may give you the air of consistency, but it adds no substance.

Is there not scum benefit in starting a wagon on someone like this under the premise of a joke?

Oman scores.

[curiouskarmadog]

wow flying through pages...already talks about untells and nice size wagon, and Oman is making sense...sort of...at least we wont have that newbie chat about theory....oh wait..nevermind.

unvote.

heading out for a couple days.

[Oman]

[quote="CKD]and Oman is making sense...sort of...[/quote] What didn't make sense to you?

[vollkan]

and Oman is making sense...sort of...

What didn't make sense to you?

I've got to agree with CKD here.

What you said made sense. But the fact that

you

said it doesn't make sense. Thus, it only sort of makes sense

[Simenon]

maybe because of our generation we seem to be following the
{random voting}+{random bullshit} --> {random wagon} --> information for a serious wagon --> Day 1 lynch
recipe for how to conduct a day 1.

I wish. Unfortunately, that first random wagon gets shot down too quickly nowadays to yield any real results, at least as far as I remember. It would be great if the tide is changing.
~~~~
My posting strategy for the first few pages of a mafia game is to provoke as many people as possible into posting and responding. This is why my posts come off as being "flippant."

[Oman]

and Oman is making sense...sort of...

What didn't make sense to you?

I've got to agree with CKD here.

What you said made sense. But the fact that

you

said it doesn't make sense. Thus, it only sort of makes sense

I hammered enought o find toyu funny.

Well done, Vollkan sir!~

[vollkan]

I hammered enought o find toyu funny.

Now you aren't making any sense at all - which therefore

actually

makes perfect sense.

[cicero]

People's logic here is interesting. By all means disagree with me about it being a weak town tell. Call it a null tell. But we were on the same basic wavelength. Nothing to vote Simenon over. Just as me saying it is a weak town tell is nothing to vote me over, Oman. Unfortunately because I was the player at issue with his chosen first bandwagon it demanded some sort of response from me. I'm not sure what the magic response was supposed to have been but the fact is I found him annoying and not scummy. The way he went about it felt like townie trying to be flippant playing silly bugger, and thereby promote conversation, which, yes, I feel is something more often engaged in by townies because anything can happen in the early game and most scum will tend towards self preservationism and try to stay out of the early controversies. Not all. Of course scum can WIFOM it. But that's the starting premise of the WIFOM. Scum will do this UNLESS they plan to confound expectations. Don't like my opinion, fine. But think Cicero would only hold that opinion as scum? You are quite incorrect as shall become apparent at some near or later point in the future.

you said that Simenon is more likely to be town than scum, and I happen to think that you would be more likely to say that if you are scum than if you are town. For a town player getting caught out in a random early day 1 wagon is annoying, for a scum player it can be deadly.

This is a thought you are happening to have that lacks foundation. It's just my opinion. It's a weak town tell. Anyone else wants to say WIFOM null tell, fine, but you're missing the point. The point was that that action seemed like Simenon being a pest and I wasnt going to vote him for it. That didnt mean I was absolving him for the game or that I didnt think scum could do something townie. Scum do townie things all the time in every game. But so do townies. So I wait to see something scummy before I vote a person.

The rest of your logic is quite tortured though. It presumes some motivation of scum to absolve townie Simenon. The most obvious logical reason to absolve Simenon would be if he was my scumbuddy. Good scum really shouldnt make it harder for themselves to be able to jump onto a building wagon, and as scum Cicero (that's me!) would be less likely to provide any such absolution. WIFOM I well know, but your post, Adel, is based in WIFOM. Cicero WOULD be more likely to say that in the situation where he is scum and Simenon is town. Total WIFOM and more importantly completely lacking in foundation.

What it does try to do is incriminate me at the same time that it, in itself, provides a conditional absolution for Simenon (Cicero's scummy behavior points to Simenon as town, is your logic), thus giving more credibility to Simenon's push. Townside players may want to note this as a possible link between the two players.

Notice how I've never said you were scum in my previous post. I just said it stopped being a joke.

Since this started you've been slippery. You have a habit of being clear on what you are not doing rather than what you are doing. If at that point in time you did NOT think I was scum and it was NOT a joke, what was it then?

Other players should be careful of this tendency of Simenon's as the game continues. There's an obvious tendency to stick his finger in the air and say "ah ah ah, I never SAID what can obviously inferred, so you are ASSUMING ha ha ha". This is a device designed to allow slippery wiggle room, the refuge of scum. Don't let him.

-------------------
As for Oman, since the consensus is that he's making sense, let's be clear about what part makes sense and what doesn't. It is one thing to disagree that something is a town tell. It is quite another to vote me for believing that it is. Oman's itchy trigger finger on that point is what didnt make sense to me. So Vollkan, when you ask

Oh, and I would love to know why somebody thinking your opinion is scummy is scummy. Saying it beforehand may give you the air of consistency, but it adds no substance.

That's your reason. One of the most important thing one needs to be able to do as scum is make mislynches happen. Scum cant win on imprisonments alone. So one of the most important things to look at when someone is voting someone is "that thing they find scummy, is it really scummy? Or are they just being opportunistic". To me that's pretty basic. And that's what I meant with Oman.

But what makes me believe you're scum is the fact that you just had to add in your own personal town tell in the post I cited. And the fact that you actually threatened to pretend to suspect someone vote someone unless they wised up. Either you're 80 years old or something isn't right here.

There's nothing not right. I didnt do the "tell" on purpose. Feel free to disregard it. But Im letting you know, voting Cicero for saying he's town, is, well...stupid, if you've played with Cicero. Don't want to use that info, how can I stop you.

And, Simenon, I wasnt "pretending" I was going to vote him. An intercessionary event - Adel's reasonless vote - occurred. I may vote him yet at a time of my choosing. At the moment he's at 3 votes which is enough until the joke votes come off him and there is evidence that all players are engaged. But I think the point stands. Me saying what you did is a weak town tell simply is not a scummy thing to say/do and threatening to vote over it is dumb at best and scummy at worst. Naturally, though, one must factor in that this is the first four pages of the game so players have to jump on the paucity that exists.

As for the misrepresentation bit -

Is there not scum benefit in starting a wagon on someone like this under the premise of a joke?

Well if there is you should vote Simenon.

My problem is that I think "null tell" is just a cop out, here. In either direction the tell is weak. But in my view talking null tell in this case is a bit like philosophical discussions of the nature of objectivity and how it can't really exist. I don't think the same action is equally likely to have been done by Simenon town and Simenon scum and I'd like to press people into not fence sitting on it. really in doing it, if you are town, its what you think as well I would bet, since you say you did it to start discussion. I think calling it a null tell is a safe place for players, including scum, to sit. I'd rather they acknowledge that in either direction the tell is weak, but that they actually engage in an analysis of why they think YOU did it WHEN you did it. That's more helpful than just shrugging "null tell".

Finally though,

Unvote, Vote Erg0

(like I dont have enough early enemies in the game, let's open up a WHOLE NEW FRONT!.) to draw attention to the fact that he is speaking only when spoken to (I call this my "Candyman" scumtell, and find it surprisingly effective) and, in responding, avoided taking a stand on the issues in play. Instead, he just posted fluff.

[Oman]

Oman's itchy trigger finger on that point is what didnt make sense to me.

OH YAH! CAUSE OMAN HAS NEVER BEEN HAPPY TO JUMP ON EARLY WAGONS!

[cicero]

Oman's itchy trigger finger on that point is what didnt make sense to me.

OH YAH! CAUSE OMAN HAS NEVER BEEN HAPPY TO JUMP ON EARLY WAGONS!

Are you articulating your own personal town tell? *Gasp* Careful. Simmy gonna getcha!

[Oman]

Sigh, I'm pointing out your faulty logic, which rears its ugly head once again.

[cicero]

Sigh, I'm pointing out your faulty logic, which rears its ugly head once again.

Cool. cuz I was busy pointing out YOUR faulty logic. It's an infinite loop of suck! Huzzah!

[Oman]

Uh...okay.

Where is the faulty logic, I jump on early wagons as town, scum, or third party neutral so unless you're suggesting that I am something never seen on MS.net, I fail to see how my logic is faulty.

Wanna try again?

[cicero]

Sure. Let me explain, In the big post and the earlier posts I argued that your reason for voting me lacked the proper foundation for a good vote. I gave reasons why. That was the faulty logic I was referring to. Nothing to do with your later cap-locked statement.

Interestingly though, Your retort after reading my very long post, wasnt to defend your reasoning, it was just to argue (if I might make explicit the premises that seem implicit in your response) that you jump on early bandwagons because they are early and you want to get the game going, not because they are good strong reasons. Which seems to bolster and confirm my perception of what was happening in the first place.

[Oman]

I'm happy with my reasoning. I don't need to defend it to you.

[cicero]

Far be it from me to ask you to justify your actions in a game of mafia. How silly. My bad.

[shaft.ed]

man it seems cicero's defense to early bandwagoning is lots of words, which I'm going to have to read.

I've got some experiments to do. I'll try to get some replies up when I get a chance.

Just a few points I noticed when skimming:

quietly notices Oman's shifting the wagon to cicero

I made it quite known that I was intending to shift to cicero.

My point here is that we were supposed to be bandwagoning you. But with your hard push on cicero in conjunction with Simenon's hard pushing, cicero became the predominant bandwagon.

what were our scumtells in that game, btw?

To be honest, since the mod picked the scum I had an inclination that you and vollkan were very likely on the scum team with a possibility of some cicero action. The more I played in your Nightmare the more I saw cicero and Guardian were buds and the more likely I thought cicero could be part of the scum group. As far as actual tells vollkan and cicero both posted much less than their usual amounts, especially during the D1 deadline lynch. Those two guys in town shoes never miss out on commenting at critical times, that was the first tip to me (however cicero was noticably posting less across site at the time so I was less sure about him). Your tell was that you are generally very "kamikaze" like as town and slightly more cautious as scum. I think your town play is generally to be scum bait which picks off 1 or 2 scum but tends to also damage your towniness. You were playing way fewer gambits and not trying to entice any votes on yourself, which seemed to be your strategy in House. What sealed the deal was your claim of targeting cicero, that was an obviously illogical claim. I should have broken my haiku restriction to point it out more thoroughly, but I thought I could get enough momentum without doing so.

[Simenon]

If at that point in time you did NOT think I was scum and it was NOT a joke, what was it then?

Managing to read quotiations in context is a wonderful skill.

I've said what I was trying to do (and succeeded to do) in two posts now. I was attempting to start a wagon. In the middle of that wagon, you made a post which I thought suggested something scummy.

Other players should be careful of this tendency of Simenon's as the game continues. There's an obvious tendency to stick his finger in the air and say "ah ah ah, I never SAID what can obviously inferred, so you are ASSUMING ha ha ha". This is a device designed to allow slippery wiggle room, the refuge of scum. Don't let him.

1. Them's fighting words. How much longer are you going to imply that I'm scum while attacking someone else?
2. I've been very clear as to my intentions. You just didn't bother to go farther then one comment.

And, Simenon, I wasnt "pretending" I was going to vote him. An intercessionary event - Adel's reasonless vote - occurred. I may vote him yet at a time of my choosing. At the moment he's at 3 votes which is enough until the joke votes come off him and there is evidence that all players are engaged.

Let's try a different route, then. Would you have voted Oman in that case even if you didn't believe he was scum?

Are you articulating your own personal town tell? *Gasp* Careful. Simmy gonna getcha!

I don't care about plugging your own town tell. The issue with your post is that it seems purposefully crafted to sound like it just slipped in.

[Simenon]

Unvote
Vote Erg0

I generally associate erg0 with "large posts infrequently" rather than "fluff posts frequently."

And you will pay for removing Groucho.

[Simenon]

And I switched because it was clear to me the Cicero wagon wasn't going anywhere.

[Shanba]

Unvote Vote: Oman

I dislike cicero's defence of himself.

[shaft.ed]

Unvote Vote: Oman

I dislike cicero's defence of himself.

The action and the statement seem to conflict.

[shaft.ed]

The way he went about it felt like townie trying to be flippant playing silly bugger, and thereby promote conversation, which, yes, I feel is something more often engaged in by townies because anything can happen in the early game and most scum will tend towards self preservationism and try to stay out of the early controversies. Not all. Of course scum can WIFOM it.

I think this has been talked to death, but another reason to be the one pushing heaviest for the early bandwagon is that if you get your way it won't be you, and if you're scum and get your way you can avoid partners. I still consider it a null-tell however.

Townside players may want to note this as a possible link between the two players. (Adel and Simenon)

I'm not seeing this. And I didn't really get the point of your three paragraph analysis as to why (which seemed layered with about 3-6 levels of WIFOM btw). Could you perhaps rehash your reasoning a little more directly?

This is a device designed to allow slippery wiggle room, the refuge of scum. Don't let him.

If he is using slippery wiggle room and it is a device of scum why do you not have a vote on him? Is there a town use for slippery wiggle room?

My problem is that I think "null tell" is just a cop out, here.

Meh there are plenty of null tells out there. But I see your counter argument that if one finds the initial Simenon play a null tell, then what makes one certain that the cicero comment that it is a town tell is in and of itself a tell?

I call this my "Candyman" scumtell, and find it surprisingly effective

I agree with the Candyman scumtell, but where is he. It's been to votes now?

[shaft.ed]

1. Them's fighting words. How much longer are you going to imply that I'm scum while attacking someone else?

That statement seems to cut both ways. You say the cicero wagon started as a random joke wagon but "something changed" along the way. I would assume this means you became more suspicious of cicero. If that's the case why drop your vote, and why join the wagon he is pushing?