California Trilogy - Going to San Francisco (Game Over!)

[Mr. Grey]

Vote Count:

6 to lynch.

Gaspar: 2 (curiouskarmadog, MrBuddyLee)
vollkan: 2 (Thesp, Xtoxm)
MrBuddyLee: 1 (vollkan)
NabakovNabakov: 1 (Gaspar)
Rogueben: 1 (MichelSableheart)

[curiouskarmadog]

View Xtoxm in isolation, oldest first, and it's post number 104.

why did you say this at this point (05/08)?

I don't understand the question.

This question was actually directed toward Xtoxm.. X, why did you say this on 05/08?

ugh, the minute I put you down on my list, you ping the dar again. Why must there be two groups of three?..why cant there be just a SK?

Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. What the hell went to

this

assumption?

What assumption? X makes a huge ASSUMPTION that there must be two scum groups of 3. I was calling him out on HIS assumption. I was asking him why does there have to be two groups of three..couldnt there be a SK instead? Funny you don’t call out X for his assumption, but jump to the conclusion that I am assuming. Do you agree with X that there are two groups of three?

Why was the nibbler twins the SCAPE’s first kill?

[Gaspar]

I thought you were lamenting the "existence" of two groups of three, not questioning Xtox on it. (The way I read it would be roughly analogous to, say, "Ugh, why must you be such a persistent ass? Why can't you just be reasonable for once?") That's why I was so confused.

Xtox did not assume anything. He speculated, and he even challenged his own "two groups of three" by pointing out that kills don't agree with that belief. Given that he's also blatantly protown (see my big huge enormous post for details), I don't see a problem with his post. When I thought you took his speculation and ran with it, that's what made me do a spit-take.

NibblerTwins probably wasn't SCAPE's first kill, IMO. Sable pulled that out of nowhere, and it pinged for MBL and me.

[curiouskarmadog]

where did that (nibbler twins the SCAPE's first kill) first appear?

[Gaspar]

Michel posted it earlier. Go find it for yourself.

[MrBuddyLee]

What the hell are you talking about? I care to revise nothing. The only bullshit you smell is your own.

I say that the fact that your arguments are getting this ridiculous, unfounded, and off-base reek of desperation. So there.

I realize I've been careless. I suppose I'm just eating my earlier words.

Apology accepted, Gaspar.

What's your current stance on a role redirector this game? What are your current stances on Thesp and Michel Sableheart? What's your theorization about how nightkills have been carried out and by whom?

[Gaspar]

Gut reaction, I'd say that one probably does exist, because as somebody said, I don't see Niv as being likely to gambit redirection. There's an outside shot that a scumbuddy instructed him to do so, but that'd be nothing more than blind speculation. I still don't understand the rationale behind a protown redirector moving Niv around that night, though.

Fae and BBMars still look like "viggings" to me. I've explained that I would never have vigged Pooky last night, but apparently others find it entirely reasonable, of not altogether likely. I can tentatively accept it as a viable solution, which (again, as I indicated earlier) puts me at SCAPE having no (or limited, as in Verbose 2? -- this one literally *JUST* popped into my head as I'm writing this) nightkills.

I know nothing about the NibblerTwins situation, so I'm in "wait and see" mode regarding that one.

[MichelSableheart]

I was the one who first brought up the possibility of NibblerTwins being the first SCAPE kill. My reasoning is roughly as follows:
- SCAPE is probably a scum group. Usually, scum groups have kills.
- Night 1, FaerieLord was killed. It is extremely unlikely this kill was made by SCAPE, seeing that FaerieLord was one of them.
- Night 2, Flameaxe was killed. It is unlikely this kill was made by SCAPE, because Flameaxe (in the incarnation of BBMars) was under quite a bit of suspicion.
- Night 3, Pooky was killed. He could be a SCAPE kill, but his death seems to fit into the pattern of the earlier nightkills.
- At the beginning of day 4, NibblerTwins showed up death. It is unknown by whom or what he was killed.

So, we have a group of possible killers, but few to no deaths attributed to them, and we have a dead body without a killer. I consider the fact that the two are connected a serious possibility.

Xtox did not assume anything. He speculated, and he even challenged his own "two groups of three" by pointing out that kills don't agree with that belief. Given that he's also blatantly protown (see my big huge enormous post for details), I don't see a problem with his post. When I thought you took his speculation and ran with it, that's what made me do a spit-take.

Gaspar, in your big huge enormous post, you are mainly arguing that Xtoxm is obviously non-SCAPE, not that he is blatantly protown. I really don't like the way you silently assume the two are the same thing.

I really need to do a reread to take recent events into account. The case against Vollkan, the discussion between Gaspar and MBL... Hopefully I'll get around to it either tomorrow or thursday.

[Xtoxm]

I think it's more likely NT's death came about for events in the attic rather than anything to do with us.

[Gaspar]

Gaspar, in your big huge enormous post, you are mainly arguing that Xtoxm is obviously non-SCAPE, not that he is blatantly protown. I really don't like the way you silently assume the two are the same thing.

Meh. He could feasably be an SK posing as a Vig. Unless ScumGroup #2 is posing as a vig (which seems very suboptimal to me), I'm not sure how much weight I'd give to a second nonkilling scumgoup. So yes, Xtox is very obviously non-SCAPE, and that gives him very strong odds of being protown in general, IMO.

This whole "how many scumgroups and of what nature" thing is an issue on which I keep waffling, simply because I don't know what the heck is actually going on here.

[destructor]

Reading from page 20.

Niv’s claim has me at a loss as to alignment.

Reading the old game, an ability like that could be town or mafia

….it is mostly confirmed that he used the ability, unless Rogueben is linked to Niv in some way.

I never actually read the last game in detail, but I did read the role pms and can't remember seeing a pro-town role that resembled this. ckd, what made you think Niv's role could have been pro-town?

There is nothing in my role that would cause a redirection

Either Niv was lying about being redirected or this game has a redirector/deflector type role. No other way around it. Why would anyone redirect (from Niv?) or deflect (from Pooky?) to Rogueben?

ckd's seems pretty keen to let us know that he doesn't know if SCAPE is a scumgroup when he backtracks from his Xtoxm-FL connection argument.

vollkan says what I was thinking about ckd's Post 515 here:

Is this plausible, though? I mean, if OGML makes an outrageous lie about the basement, it means that the other remaining basementer will challenge him and one of you will be lynched, with the other sitting in the wings if that person is town.

There's definitely inconsistency in MBL's suggestion that there is an role which places people in the basement and his attack on OGML. But I do find his "trap" or DWA to be believably intentional, mostly because of the way the post was phrased.

I thought this was interesting and will keep it in mind next time MBL says he thinks he's caught scum:

I'm just not seeing the airtight case you claim to be laying down here.

It's hyperbole. You don't get good reactions out of people by being entirely reasonable.

Fool me once, okay, but I'm not going to buy that you're hyperbolising your suspicions every time. This post implies to me that at the time (post 500) you weren't as sure of your case on OGML as you'd been suggesting. You make one post after this before Post 522 where you call OGML a stinky liar and basically wear your heart on your sleeve. I'm not really sure what changed between 500 and 522 to make you

that

much surer about OGML. Was 522 still a hyperbole?


Ok, so I got 2 pages done, and yes, that's pretty abysmal. Watch me finish it all tomorrow.

[MrBuddyLee]

I wanted to see OGML defend himself and come out with some real suspicions, And his next post, the suspicions one, was forced and dreadful. Which you might expect of flustered scum, so it fit the pattern. Yuck.

[MrBuddyLee]

curiouskarmadog
destructor, replacing LoudmouthLee N2, SensFan D2
Gaspar
MichelSableheart
MrBuddyLee
NabakovNabakov
Rogueben
Thesp
vollkan
Xtoxm

Still missing: IH, Sarcastro

Nibbler Twins (Ray Charles, Innocent) - found Day 4
PookyTheMagicalBear (Lars Ulrich, Innocent) - murdered Night 3.
Niv (Emily Robison, SCAPE) - lynched Day 3.
Flameaxe, replacing BBMars D2 (Innocent San Franciscan, Innocent) - murdered Night 2.
OhGodMyLife (Björk, Innocent) - lynched Day 2.
FaerieLord (Natalie Maines, SCAPE) - murdered Night 1.
Machiavellian-Mafia (Gordon E. Moore, Innocent) - lynched Day 1.
Gorrad (Keith Hernandez, Innocent) - lynched in the basement Day 1.
The Reader (Innocent San Franciscan) - murdered during Pre-Game.

The game would be unbalanced if scum could put themselves in a majority in the basement and just ride things out while town axed themselves. So I don't think IH and Sarcastro have a partner that put them there to kill the Nibbler Twins. Or put them there themselves. Make sense?

Singers, baseball players, business guys, plain Innocents. SCAPE is Dixie Chicks, two current members are dead, at least Natalie Maines likely remains. Scum tried Robin Williams as a safeclaim? 20 players and 3 scum is not terribly likely. Nightkill types appear to be "murdered, found". Not sure if that implies two scum groups. "Murdered" kills appear to be protown.

General thoughts without rereading:
* Xtoxm is generally perceived as town
* MBL, Sableheart, Rogueben have been widely suspected
* ckd is the sole survivor from the basement. two dead town from there, he pushed Nivlynch two days straight
* vollkan says MBL is unlikely SCAPE, votes MBL primarily for OGML pursuit
* Rogueben
* Gaspar protects Niv, sees Thesp as a mason, conflicted on a redirector
* Nab Defended MBL before lynch yesterday, attacked by Gaspar for opportunism on MBL, has no suspicions today
* Xtoxm defending RB and Gaspar today, lists no suspicions
* Sableheart suspects Gaspar and RB today
* Thesp wants vollkan dead next, misdirects from Gaspar's defense of Niv today
* destructor reading carefully, lots of somewhat founded suspicions, no founded conclusions today

I really don't like that Gaspar and MS wanted me dead instead of Niv yesterday and M-M dead instead of Faerielord D1. Yeah, yeah, they made it look like they wanted Fae dead but the net result of their actions was otherwise. It's the same general idea twice, and I doubt that's coincidence. Combine that with Gaspar's indifferent, self-conscious play and I think he's the more likely scumbag.

[Xtoxm]

You missed my vote on volkan?

[Glork]

I don't see Thesp as a mason anymore. You seriously need to get your fucking facts straight, you ignorant cad.

[Glork]

EBWOP: Too lazy to Gaspar login. Also, MBL, why no thoughts/comments regarding Ben?


And why have you STILL not answered the several questions I posed earlier? They were not rhetorical by any means.

[MrBuddyLee]

A handful of points I'd like you to address:
-What exactly do you think of Sable's claim? I don't believe you ever answered Thesp's question about how you evaluated it.

I think Sable's claim is suspicious. I've never seen someone claim vanilla before and then try to imply they might have a power. Smelled like a weird attempt to shake his tails.

-What in my lengthy post is "fluff"?

Off the top of my head, you went back to vollkan's D1 one post and bitched about some insignificant detail totally unrelated to scumhunting this game.

-Why do you keep trying to tie me to different players? D1 and early D2 you found me suspect (and posited Glorkspar/Pooky at the start of D2). You then expanded this to Gaspar-Pooky-Thesp. Then you posited Gaspar/OGML. Once OGML is dead and gone, you threw out Glork-Pooky-Thesp again. Then you suddenly went to Glork/Sable. I guess what I want to know is:
A_ Why do you insist on trying to pair me as scum with different people?

Because I thought you protected Sableheart and I find yours and Thesp's relationship odd. I don't recall particularly accusing you of protecting OGML. It doesn't imply that I find you to be scumpairs, I am just noting odd behavior on your part that doesn't look sincere.

B) Why in your mind do I get around more than the neighborhood slut?

Because you charge a lot less?

C) If you've so solidly thought I'm scum since late D1 and keep trying to find my scumbuddies, why did it take you until late in Day Three to actually vote me?

I think this is a misrepresentation, but answering in general, I'd almost never want to lynch you D1/D2 without ridiculously solid evidence. I'll go into detail on this later, because I am starting to feel like you're hyperventilating and misrepresenting my positions in order to distract from your own play. You admit you have played sloppily if not scummily, and you take issue with me calling you on it? Sketchy.

-What exactly did you mean when you stated that one of CKD/OGML was certainly scum, and why did you drop that theory like a high school prom date?

I've explained this twelve times, and again, it's slimy that you keep misrepresenting me. Ball's in your court--please show me where I said that and I'll reply. Or at least show me the quote of mine you're misrepresenting.

-Given your "Pooky/Gaspar/Thesp" positioning, what do you think of Thesp's assertion that I'm distinctly protown? Of mine that he is distinctly protown?

I think you guys are retarded. If you'd care to give me reasons, I'd be happy to evaluate them, but neither of you has done jack-squat for this town so far--to the contrary, I think you've both undermined it.

[MrBuddyLee]

I don't see Thesp as a mason anymore. You seriously need to get your fucking facts straight, you ignorant cad.

sees/saw. typo, sorry.

re: RB: I tried to make it through the whole list of players without peeking at the thread, and failed. I couldn't think of a thing he's done today or recently other than get "investigated" by a scumbag. Same issue with Nab, Xtoxm and destructor--I had to cheat to recall what any of them have done today.

[curiouskarmadog]

post comng on friday

[NabakovNabakov]

* Nab Defended MBL before lynch yesterday, attacked by Gaspar for opportunism on MBL, has no suspicions today

Quite right, I'm having difficulty finding anything that doesn't feel like following somebody else.

As following goes:

I've always been unnerved (in a meta sense) by the severity of Vollkan's logic, and I've had discussions with him about this, but I've always seen it as a place for him to hide as scum. I understand the pressure Thesp placed on him, but I see it as extremely suspicious when he votes straight off his list. It's difficult for me to take his listed suspicions as legitimate scumhunting worthy of a vote. His paragraphs followed by numbers don't represent actual cases but only his gutless gut reads.

@Vollkan: If you truly suspect MBL more than anybody else, give us more than you already have on the subject, cause all I have now is "MBL lynched OGML"

@Gaspar: Do you think MBL is scum?

[Gaspar]

Nabs: I'm leaning towards it. Most of me really wants to, because MBL has made a number of terrible points against me. Most bothersome are two things he did repeatedly -- making flat assertions without any basis, and misrepresenting timelines to make me look self-contradictory. The biggest thing holding me back is that I know he and I are prone to lengthy debates, and that I know I'm prone to thinking he is scum.

If "all you have on MBL" is his going after OGML, I implore you to look very carefully at my Post 880, where I bring to light the invalidity of most of MBL's anti-Gaspar propaganda. Hell, even if you disagree with what I've said there, feel free to challenge the points I made. Whether or not one, none, or both of MBL/Glork is scum, a critical analysis of a major debate seems to me like a pretty good place to start getting involved more.

(EDIT: Oh wait... you mean "all I have from you is 'MBL lynched OGML'" don't you? Meh. Still go read through our debate with a fresh mind and think about what each of us have said and done.)

[Gaspar]

EBWOP: ^^ The above "edit" is a "preview edit" after I stopped and re-read and looked around... just don't want to confuse anybody with that.

[Gaspar]

Re: MBL
Oh, right, your hairbrained "somebody else is sticking townies in the basement before the game ever started" theory. Sorry, MBL. That's just so far out of the ballpark, I forgot you ever posed it to begin with.

---

Bah. In general, MBL just feels like he did in FTF. Underhanded, evasive, trying to bring "you suspected X here and Y there and were wrong about W and Z" into light as much as possible -- much as he's doing with Gaspar/Niv here.

I especially don't like that he knows he's being deliberately slimy but trying to justify it anyway... two things on this:

First and foremost, there's his attitude towards OGML. I've already linked to 522, but that post is really the kicker, where he repeatedly states that OGML is scum, stakes his life on it, and puts, quite simply "I'm not wrong." Like I said earlier, that hinted very strongly of copcrumbing (to the point where I was ready to chastise him once he died for being so blatant). He had already fallen back on calling hyperbole for the sake of stirring the pot, but Destructor correctly points out that he falls back upon slinging mud and screaming rhetoric.

Secondly, I feel that the whole "basement" thing was deliberately misleading. It's true that technically, he only stated that he wouldn't expect Mr. Grey the mod to put three innocents in the basement. I think he was fishing for support on that notion and that, when he didn't get it, he used "I think a player may have stuck three innocents in the basement" as an out to his posed false dilemma. I have already explained that the concept of having a player take a role action before the game starts is hair-brained, blind speculation with zero exhibited solid-grounding. Part of me wonders what he would have done if somebody

had

bought into "there weren't three townies in the basement." Would he have whipped around on them? Taken the support and run with it? Unfortunately, there's no way we can know now.

I mostly liken his behavior on these two points to the way he treated CDB in Face-To-Face. He posted that he "spotted something very naughty" in CDB's posts. He repeatedly harped on how he had seen something and wanted everyone else to go look at it, but refused to explain what it was that he "saw." Later on, he went on to explain that he was trying to protect "Glork-Cop" by 'muddying the waters' and making a lot of noise. He is exactly right in that he made a lot of noise. CDB turning out scum is something he tried to use to champion himself (one-sided "I was accurate - Glork was busing!" assertions, for example). But while he concocted a theory that made sense when argued from his perspective, the objective onlooker (Glork, in the case of FTF) was able to see that he was merely setting up smokescreens, trying to confuse passersby.


The first thing I alluded to, MBL did an awful lot of in FTF was trying to cram "Glork/CDBscum" interactions down everybody's throat in as poor a light as possible. Obviously, this parallels the "Gaspar/Niv" case he's been shining his beacon on this entire time. I'm going to save this for a separate post, because I don't really have time right now. But isn't it interesting that, when MBL first threw up some half-dozen points, I debunked five of them, and he's falling back on "Gaspar protected Niv and didn't really want Fae dead" as his primary argument against me? If I were Glork, I'd simply point to my title and say "Burden of Proficiency." As I am Gaspar here, I will simply point to Glork's title and say "Burden of Proficiency."


Alright, I've re-convinced myself.

Unvote, Vote: MrBuddyLee

[Gaspar]

Incidentally, MBL, when I first said I thought you had a cop result on OGML, you said this:

Ugh. Sorry, I made it pretty clear I didn't have info on OGML, just thought he was super duper scummy.

How exactly did you "make it pretty clear" that you didn't have a result?

[MrBuddyLee]

God, you lie blatantly and just expect to get away with it? It's tiresome.

You just admitted to at least two of my recent points being perfectly valid because you've been "careless". The two, in fact, that I was waiting for people to remark on before I brought them up. But feel free to tell the world I'm scum for pointing out your "mistakes". To me, they just look like Glork not giving a damn about the facts or who gets lynched.

I'm tired of dealing with your propaganda, so I'm going to drop the stick and let everyone else who cares read through it if they want to see your distortions. As a final reality check for you, the things that look the scummiest about you, in order:

1) You are fast and loose with the truth about things like a redirector role
2) You're "clearing" people like Thesp based on partial reads of the game
3) You're not being honest about the case I've made against you--you're cherrypicking any slightly lazy comments I make. Fair play, to be sure, but scummy as hell.
4) You have been shady at end-of-day EVERY DAY and you blame someone else each time.
5) For like the fourth game in a row we've played together, you're pointing to Face-to-Face as why I'm scum. Some are ongoing and I can't comment further, and some are over and you were proven wrong. Face it, your meta on me sucks.