California Trilogy - Going to San Francisco (Game Over!)

[MrBuddyLee]

I'm just not seeing the airtight case you claim to be laying down here.

It's hyperbole. You don't get good reactions out of people by being entirely reasonable.

[vollkan]

does having see him play this way as town in the past make him town? I do not see how having played like this before as town makes him any more likley town, or the playstyle any less scummy.

The effect of it is that I need to filter my observations of Pooky through what I know of Pooky's playstyle. It is not a complete excuse, but is something that needs to be considered.

Ok Vollkan

clearly we will have this discussion again.

Tell me what's wrong with how I've played this game, and I'll tell you why I've played it this way.

You say giving no clear reasons is bad, I say giving clear reasons early is bad. Let's roll.

I don't want another theory debate in a game thread. It is not the place. We have a basic philosophical difference here: I like seeing reasons because it gives me something transparent and logical to analyse. See House for a reflection of the fact that it is a difficult playstyle for people like me to deal with.

* In going through people's posts, I noted that OGML was entirely incurious about who the scum were. I hypothesized that he was very likely scum and I wanted to dig for associations.

* The fact that he was one of two people directly responsible for the lynch of a townie in the basement is a minor-to-null point against him that's been the source of some controversy.

* I have had a pet theory since I heard the "lynching in the basement" story--that a fellow player in this game put those players there for good or evil purposes.

* I was aware that Xtomx reached a dubious conclusion based on that situation and got smacked on the wrist for it.

* I decided to play a little game with my finger-pointing at OGML. I hinted at my pet theory and wanted to see if anyone else had considered the same thing. And I wanted to see who might leap on my bacon for that one thing without fairly assessing the entire post. Which is pretty much what 3-4 of you did. It's called selective reading. You wanted to find the scum in one place and not another.

I think I understand you, but answer this question please: When I saw the strange scenario you posited, what was it that I unreasonably missed through selective reading?

[MrBuddyLee]

My comments were:

MBL vibes kicking in strongly on OGML. Pure defensiveness, with a twinge of nasty little threats mixed in to shake town off his tail. And a few little details. Yuck. *shudders*

Please read OGML's contribution to the game before thinking about lynching anyone else. He was in a basement of three people that voted out a townie. I find it highly unlikely that the mod would put three townies in such a situation. That, combined with his play today, makes him significantly scrutable.

And what I am saying is that you have not commented at all this game on OGML, not even in response to my post. Anyone who reads his post history will realize how disastrously scummy his play is thus far. OGML is entirely waiting for someone else to make a case; for someone else to get lynched. He is almost certainly scum.

And anyone who read my above comments and did not follow up on them is NOT curious about OGML's alignment. And is quite possibly scum with him.

[OhGodMyLife]

I'm in the process of rereading the game, which I will admit I paid less attention to than I should have while in the basement, at least while Gorrad was alive and we were in our own heated discussion. Will be giving views and updating my condorcet when I have finished.

MBL, characterizing my play as "disastrously scummy" is way over the top. I admit I haven't been helpful yet (except in noting what a crock of shit yours and xtoxm's ideas on what must and must not be the makeup of the missing players groups are), but I don't see a very great difference in what I've done and what CKD has done since returning. I wonder why you chose me over him in your witch hunt, and why you can't see that we've both simply been lazy. I am not waiting for somebody else to make a case, as you say, and just hoping somebody else gets lynched: I am actively trying to get you lynched. NabNab seems to agree with you on whether or not my vote for you was OMGUS, but let me explain again why it wasn't. I firmly believe and have stated why it is my belief that what you've proposed and done in reference to mine and CKD's situation is dumb, dangerous and most importantly scummy.

[OhGodMyLife]

It turns out that my dorm is the only one on Tulane's campus not connected to the college's power grid, so it loses power when this part of the city does. Which is what just happened. Posting from my friend's room to explain the delay in my promised post. It'll happen when I get power back/stop being social.

[curiouskarmadog]

Been giving this game some thought. Even though, a connection between Xtoxm and FL doesn’t mean anything, I still feel like X’s comments and play seem scummy. And deserves to be under pressure.

Niv’s claim has me at a loss as to alignment. Reading the old game, an ability like that could be town or mafia….it is mostly confirmed that he used the ability, unless Rogueben is linked to Niv in some way.

Niv, why did you target Pooky..any thoughts why your investigation was redirected?

Pooky, any idea why Niv’s target would have been redirected? (if you have answered this question before please direct me to the post).

votes coming soon.

[Xtoxm]

I had a connection with FL? I don't think I spoke directly to him once...

How have I been scummy in this one?

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

There is nothing in my role that would cause a redirection

[curiouskarmadog]

I had a connection with FL? I don't think I spoke directly to him once...

How have I been scummy in this one?

did you read my outline about your connection to FL in a couple of my post back?...again, that connection is meaningless, though.

[Xtoxm]

I think you're seeing a connection that isn't there.

[curiouskarmadog]

i have already stated that even IF it was there, it doesnt mean anything, why are you still hitting it home?

[Niv]

Niv, why did you target Pooky..any thoughts why your investigation was redirected?

I targeted pooky beacuse he is one of the players that I find very suspicious, but not many others do so. as for the redirection, i think the most likey reason would be beacuse i was the only claimed targeting role, and that there was no reason for the scum to not use their ability at all. and it causes confusion, which last time i checked helps the mafia.

[Xtoxm]

i have already stated that even IF it was there, it doesnt mean anything, why are you still hitting it home?

You keep bringing it up and saying i'm scummy.

[Rogueben]

Sorry guys. My computer has been out of action all weekend. Expect a post from me tomorrow.

[MichelSableheart]

I find it highly unlikely that the mod would put three townies in such a situation. That, combined with his play today, makes him significantly scrutable.

MBL, the quoted section strongly implies that you believe OGML is more suspicious because it is unlikely that all three players in the basement are townies. However, the explanation you recently gave strongly implies that all three players in the basement are of the same alignement, because a different player, presumably scum, chose who would end up (or more accurately down) there. This seems to be a direct contradiction to me. I agree with you though that OGML has hardly contributed, though BBMars and SensFan/LML seem to be more guilty of that.

OGML, are we allowed to know why exactly you so strongly believe ckd to be town?

ckd, what is your opinion on OGML?

[curiouskarmadog]

ckd, what is your opinion on OGML?

I am leaning town. LIke I said when i first came into the game today, he had plenty of time to hammer me with Gorrad and he did not take it...he could have easily hammered me with his first couple posts and fall back on (today) that Gorrad was being scummy because he felt Gorrad had inside information (at least one scum in each group)...hell, he could have hammered me and spun today that in retrospect, gorrad's push for my lynch was scummy. This would have given him another target today that he could have organized with his scum buddies last night. Now I think about it, he could have organized an attack on me today if he was scum pretty easily. Once he got into the thread today and saw there was no way he could reference or quote the basement, he could have lied about how events went down in the basement, or at least slanted the truth somewhat.

He also didnt immediately hammer Gorrad when he had the shot either, and gave him time to address my post.

I understand it could have been a ruse to earn some town creds, but the way that it went down yesterday makes me think otherwise.

[curiouskarmadog]

i have already stated that even IF it was there, it doesnt mean anything, why are you still hitting it home?

You keep bringing it up and saying i'm scummy.

when was the last post that I brought up that you were scummy BECAUSE of the connection between you and FL?

I believe I have said at least twice that my percieved connection between you and FL is doubtful upon reviewing the other game. Furthermore I have mentioned that I think you are scummy for other reasons.

[Xtoxm]

He could have been worried about giving himself away. And I think he's trying a bit hard to buddy up to you and say he thinks you are both innocent.

when was the last post that I brought up that you were scummy BECAUSE of the connection between you and FL?

Ok, probly not in a while. Let's just drop it, it's irrelevent.

Furthermore I have mentioned that I think you are scummy for other reasons.

What have I done that you have founf particularly scummy? In particalur, what after my uber post have you found scummy? I can accept that most people, for some reason, seems to think I was scummy before then (cept Pooky and vollkan, as my memory serves) But most seem to think i've looked town since then.

[Gaspar]

....quick post just to say that I'm back in town, but have stuff to catch up on, and I don't want to get strikes. It doesn't look like there's been much actiivty anyway. I'll catch up in the next day or two. Cheers.

[vollkan]

My comments were:

MBL vibes kicking in strongly on OGML. Pure defensiveness, with a twinge of nasty little threats mixed in to shake town off his tail. And a few little details. Yuck. *shudders*

Please read OGML's contribution to the game before thinking about lynching anyone else. He was in a basement of three people that voted out a townie. I find it highly unlikely that the mod would put three townies in such a situation. That, combined with his play today, makes him significantly scrutable.

And what I am saying is that you have not commented at all this game on OGML, not even in response to my post. Anyone who reads his post history will realize how disastrously scummy his play is thus far. OGML is entirely waiting for someone else to make a case; for someone else to get lynched. He is almost certainly scum.

And anyone who read my above comments and did not follow up on them is NOT curious about OGML's alignment. And is quite possibly scum with him.

"almost certainly scum" is very strong language. I will analyse OGML, however, since although I have not noticed anything, the fact that you are using such bombast terminology is very important and may indicate that I should either review your in more detail, or that I have, until now, let OGML slip by.

I am leaning town. LIke I said when i first came into the game today, he had plenty of time to hammer me with Gorrad and he did not take it...he could have easily hammered me with his first couple posts and fall back on (today) that Gorrad was being scummy because he felt Gorrad had inside information (at least one scum in each group)...hell, he could have hammered me and spun today that in retrospect, gorrad's push for my lynch was scummy. This would have given him another target today that he could have organized with his scum buddies last night. Now I think about it, he could have organized an attack on me today if he was scum pretty easily. Once he got into the thread today and saw there was no way he could reference or quote the basement, he could have lied about how events went down in the basement, or at least slanted the truth somewhat.

He also didnt immediately hammer Gorrad when he had the shot either, and gave him time to address my post.

I understand it could have been a ruse to earn some town creds, but the way that it went down yesterday makes me think otherwise.

Is this plausible, though? I mean, if OGML makes an outrageous lie about the basement, it means that the other remaining basementer will challenge him and one of you will be lynched, with the other sitting in the wings if that person is town.

[OhGodMyLife]

My condorcet, with reasons:

MBL - You're trying very, very hard to convince people I am made of pure, unadulterated evil, and have simultaneously gone about extremely dangerous setup speculation that seems to either set up a second mislynch (on CKD next) or directly contradict your hypothesis that I am scum (if there really is a role out there that put the basement-dwellers there in the first place). You're also bunching together anyone who got a whiff of the shit you were selling and trying to paint the lot of us badly when you were the one who came out with the craplogic in the first place. You remain my preferred lynch for the day.

Xtoxm - You did the same thing as MBL is now doing with the setup speculation, albeit in a much more straightforward manner. You were also willing to admit it was not necessarily the case. However, day two you've been doing very little aside from playing follow the leader with Gaspar (even admitting so and saying its because Gaspar looks pro-town), and day one I think there were a few too many people pulling out the VI defense for you, to the point where you barely even had to defend yourself. I think you should have been the lynch yesterday, and if you do cardflip scum then all the people who harped on the VI factor when it looked like you were about to get strung up will go under serious scrutiny.

BBMars - I agree with the case already made against you by others and will move you further up my condorcet if necessary to secure a deadline lynch, though this is not in any way preferable to the two I've already listed.

Rogueben - Something about your day one play made me uneasy, and I also think you're one of the more likely to have been trying to get the wagon off of Xtoxm to save a scumbuddy. Post 365 also looks to me like a warning to a scumbuddy to stop being dumb, since you bring up his poor play but don't actually come to a conclusion as to it meaning anything.

LML - Well, you haven't actually done anything yet this game, my suspicion comes from Sensfan. If Xtoxm is in fact town, I see him as the one most taking advantage of the easy wagon, as he jumps on late and later expresses the opinion that he'd like to lynch a pro-town VI just to be rid of a distraction. Other than wagoning X, the only thing he did at the end of the day was call for claims for M-M and Niv.

Niv - You are only listed above {People} because of your last line of Post 451 (which is what put you on my last condorcet) and for your response to my complaint about that, in Post 479 where you acknowledge that you "must have missed the other two" but do nothing to change your condorcet to reflect that.

{People} - I don't have strong feelings on anybody I didn't specifically list. The only one I want to mention is Pooky. I'm not a fan of his method but I don't think its scummy and obviously he isn't going to change it for me if he's unwilling to do so after heated discussion with Vollkan and the repeated attacks from Niv. I hope on later days your tactics will change.

CKD - Not willing to see him lynched. I'm town, he's town. His actions in the basement run counter to what would be in his best interest as scum. There is really very little that would change my position on him.

Unvote; Vote: MBL

, Xtoxm, BBMars, Rogueben, LML, Niv, {People}, CKD, No Lynch, OGML

[BBMars]

Haven't finished my read yet, only had a chance to read when I took a break from writing my essay. I should have the essay done in a few hours, and then should be done with the read/notes posted by then.

Hopefully.

[MrBuddyLee]

My condorcet, with reasons:

MBL - You're trying very, very hard to convince people I am made of pure, unadulterated evil, and have simultaneously gone about extremely dangerous setup speculation that seems to either set up a second mislynch (on CKD next) or directly contradict your hypothesis that I am scum (if there really is a role out there that put the basement-dwellers there in the first place). You're also bunching together anyone who got a whiff of the shit you were selling and trying to paint the lot of us badly when you were the one who came out with the craplogic in the first place. You remain my preferred lynch for the day.

Xtoxm - You did the same thing as MBL is now doing with the setup speculation, albeit in a much more straightforward manner. You were also willing to admit it was not necessarily the case.

Unvote; Vote: MBL

, Xtoxm, BBMars, Rogueben, LML, Niv, {People}, CKD, No Lynch, OGML

You're a blatant, stinky liar.

I made it very clear that my setup speculation was entirely intended to point out that a PLAYER, not the mod, probably chose the players to put in the basement. There is nothing extremely dangerous or craplogicky about that. Your insinuation that I'm trying to set up any kind of double lynch on CKD is a LIE. Utter fabrication. YOU ARE SCUM.

I made it even clearer that you hadn't commented on a single upstairs player in your two weeks in the game, and YOU AGREED. That is why I was voting you, and that is why you are scummy. You are voting me for some tortured combination of a) setup hypothesis, b) spotting opportunists protecting you and c) OGML OMGUS.

The time when we can figure anything out from the basement situation is a long way off. The time when we can figure out that you didn't give a crap about finding scum until you got called on it is NOW. That, plus the fact that you're lying through your teeth to get the heat off you is disgraceful.

Note to everyone: OGML IS SCUM. Vibes overwhelmingly powerful. The amount of evasion this creep is engaging in points unambiguously to his utter lack of sincerity.

Lynch OhGodMyLife today. For god's sake, he doesn't even rebut the case against him, he just points his finger back at me in hopes of staving off his death for a day. Read his post history! It's the epitome of scumminess. If I'm wrong, lynch me tomorrow. And I'm not wrong.

[Gaspar]

Unvote, Vote: OGML

[OhGodMyLife]

If I'm wrong, lynch me tomorrow. And I'm not wrong.

...you know, thats a really dumb thing to say no matter what you're alignment is.