Mafia 79 - "The Amish Mafia" GAME OVER... WHO WON?

[Korts]

Gee, thanks, Marm. I think I'm on Surye's list because of the possible connection between VV and me. I'd be suspcious of myself myself if I weren't myself.

Yea, to be honest, the more the game goes on, the more I think VV was TRYING to implicate you. My suspicions are not what they used to be. ZS and VV are the important ones.

MM too, but looks like that's just my opinion. Plus, he (MM) hasn't posted since, although that may be for reasons beyond my accusation.

[ZombieSlayer54]

Prod Marmalade and Psychatrog please.

EA: Any form of bandwagon that gets even slightly large is reckless because there are two kinds of people who can push that bandwagon over the safe edge at an L-6 point.

1. Scum.

2. Townies who come in after not being around for a few days, decide to not read any of the pages, see who has the most votes, and then goes and votes for them.

Uh, sure? If VV is town and six scum/morons want to push his wagon to a speedy lynch, great, we subsequently lynch them all and we win. Unless the entire mafia is missing half their chromosomes, then VV's not in any danger and furthermore you need to quit being such a god damn baby over wagons that haven't even got halfway to lynch.

Who says it has to be a speedy lynch? Maybe they put their votes on subtly, maybe put some pressure on him with those votes, maybe say something he said was Mafia-esque, and use that to push the bandwagon to a lynch?

And besides, sometimes bandwagons that get that big, even if started innocently enough, can not be stopped.

[ZombieSlayer54]

Or maybe I just have different experiences than you.

WIFOMs, in my experience, have always served to make Mafia slip up, or Townie confirmation.

They have never led to a something anti-Town.

I'll explain again more carefully.

Town's only tool is logic.
Mafia's advantage is information.

We agree so far?

Okay, WIFOM is a way to throw logic into an infinite loop, distorting it to provide two mutually exclusive and opposite outcomes as nearly equal possibilities. This makes whatever information used to create the WIFOM useless. That is why it is bad, and always bad, for town.

For pro-mafia, WIFOM cannot make them slip up, because it's not actually claiming anything, it's just putting a possibility out there, but it can put them back in the position of monopoly on information.

But I suspect you know all of this, which is why my vote rests neatly on your head.

ZS, could you link to a game where WIFOM has allowed you to do either or those things? Failing that, a hypothetical example? I just find it really hard to see where you're coming from.

I would, but I imagine that those threads have been shrubbed by the site I had in mind by now.

And let me explain how a WIFOM would help the town:

You put a WIFOM in front of somebody. WIFOMs, if followed through with, will usually lead to debates as lengthy as the one where we got the term WIFOM from. And, last I checked, long discussions do only one thing in Mafia games: Make the Mafia slip up. If you are a Mafia who is dragged into a WIFOM, you will end up being "poisoned", so to say. If you are a Townie who is dragged into a WIFOM, your lack of slipping up after a few pages of debate, as far as I am concerned, will prove your innocence.

I find it really simple, actually.

[Korts]

ZS. L-6? Not dangerous.

[ZombieSlayer54]

ZS. L-6? Not dangerous.

But it can easily become dangerous. That is my point.

[Celebloki]

Sorry for my lack of posting and AFK for the past few days. Life has been kicking me int he ass with work, school, and other things. I have finally been able to re-read it and process whats happening.

Turning a random vote into a bandwagon with five or more people on it, no matter the amount of people in the game, always seems reckless to me.

When its what...11 to lynch 5 is practically nothing. I think your being a little to dramatic about this.

And let me explain how a WIFOM would help the town:

You put a WIFOM in front of somebody. WIFOMs, if followed through with, will usually lead to debates as lengthy as the one where we got the term WIFOM from. And, last I checked, long discussions do only one thing in Mafia games: Make the Mafia slip up. If you are a Mafia who is dragged into a WIFOM, you will end up being "poisoned", so to say. If you are a Townie who is dragged into a WIFOM, your lack of slipping up after a few pages of debate, as far as I am concerned, will prove your innocence.

I find it really simple, actually.

This method is heavily flawed, imho its completely possible for a Townie to slip up and make things worse for himself. WIFOM is not good for town, it can be a tactic used by mafia to do the exact same thing to town thatyour saying it does to Mafia. Townies aren't invincible to this just because they are innocent.

I don't like any of your logic so far and it seems your trying to really dig yourself out of a hole more and more.

HOS: ZombieSlayer54

I have a hunch VV is just an overactive player due to his sickness. I will Vote: ValiantValant and when he gets well from his sickness (I'm sick but getting better at the moment) I will maybe think about removing my vote.

I know its been said by everyone else already but where the hell is the logic in this. Is this some sad attempt at bussing?

FOS: Mellowed Man

Right now my suspicions heavily lay on ZombieSlayer54, I think his explanations of what WIFOM is and how overdramatically he attacked others for gettong on the korts bandwagon are attempts to make himself look town and that reeks to me.

Vote: ZombieSlayer54

[Inquisitor JL]

ZS - you say WIFOM can help the town. You also say that logic is the town's only tool. WIFOM has no one logical result - hence doesn't allow the towns only tool to work - hence isn't good for town.

Also, you seem to be protecting VV with you defence of wifom.

unvote vote ZS, FoS VV as partner

[Korts]

ZS. L-6? Not dangerous.

But it can easily become dangerous. That is my point.

L-6 doesn't become dangerous. If it becomes dangerous, it ceases being L-6.

[ZombieSlayer54]

ZS - you say WIFOM can help the town. You also say that logic is the town's only tool. WIFOM has no one logical result - hence doesn't allow the towns only tool to work - hence isn't good for town.

Also, you seem to be protecting VV with you defence of wifom.

unvote vote ZS, FoS VV as partner

*Sigh*

Ok, let me explain, again.

Yes, a WIFOM delivered by a Mafia will only result in the town being hurt, since it poisons the information pool.

While this will hurt the town, the Mafia who delivered the WIFOM will easily be discovered, as his WIFOM will not yield any results of any kind.

However, if a WIFOM is delivered by a Townie, it will prompt discussion from the person(s) it is delivered to. And, as we all know, discussion will ALWAYS help the town.

[ZombieSlayer54]

ZS. L-6? Not dangerous.

But it can easily become dangerous. That is my point.

L-6 doesn't become dangerous. If it becomes dangerous, it ceases being L-6.

That... Really... Makes no sense.

I mean, you said that L-6 can not become dangerous... But then you just said that if it DOES become dangerous...

Egh. Whatever.

FOS on Korts

, just because that hurt my head.

[Surye]

ZS - you say WIFOM can help the town. You also say that logic is the town's only tool. WIFOM has no one logical result - hence doesn't allow the towns only tool to work - hence isn't good for town.

Also, you seem to be protecting VV with you defence of wifom.

unvote vote ZS, FoS VV as partner

*Sigh*

Ok, let me explain, again.

Yes, a WIFOM delivered by a Mafia will only result in the town being hurt, since it poisons the information pool.

While this will hurt the town, the Mafia who delivered the WIFOM will easily be discovered, as his WIFOM will not yield any results of any kind.

However, if a WIFOM is delivered by a Townie, it will prompt discussion from the person(s) it is delivered to. And, as we all know, discussion will ALWAYS help the town.

.... No way. Did you honestly just WIFOM about WIFOM? Congrats, that's a new level.

[Evilgorrilaz]

Unvote, Vote ZombieSlayer54

WIFOM in defense of WIFOM....
And actually, too much discussion can sow seeds of doubt amongst the townies.

[q21]

WIFOM leads to ambiguity. Ambiguity leads to confusion. Confusion is anti-town... always. This is the way WIFOM progresses if allowed to, regardless of who brings it up. Zombie has failed to produce a link for us (the games are conveniently gone) and his reasoning sucks, in my opinion. He has become lynch target number one.

Vote: ZombieSlayer54

[Evilgorrilaz]

Oh, and I support a ZS lynch today.

[q21]

forgot to

unvote

Vote ZombieSlayer54

Think that L-5?

MOD:

can we have a vote count please?

[Inquisitor JL]

Hence your vote on him.

And actually, too much discussion can sow seeds of doubt amongst the townies.

Since when?

FoS Evilgorrilaz

[Riceballtail]

MOD: can we have a vote count please?

Seconded. But I believe L-5 is correct. Also, prodding may be in order for the lurkers.

And actually, too much discussion can sow seeds of doubt amongst the townies.

So does not enough.

[Evilgorrilaz]

Not saying discussion is bad, saying that is suddenly day 1 drags on for like 50 pages it can actually harm the town.

[ZombieSlayer54]

And actually, too much discussion can sow seeds of doubt amongst the townies.

So does not enough.

And that is why you need to find the appropriate balance of discussion.

Also, to someone who asked me if I suspected Q21 of being Mafia, why am I not voting him? Maybe because MM looks more like Mafia to me than Q21?

[ZombieSlayer54]

WIFOM leads to ambiguity. Ambiguity leads to confusion. Confusion is anti-town... always. This is the way WIFOM progresses if allowed to, regardless of who brings it up. Zombie has failed to produce a link for us (the games are conveniently gone) and his reasoning sucks, in my opinion. He has become lynch target number one.

Vote: ZombieSlayer54

Ok... When was the last time anyone did such a thing as produce a link to a game they participated in to prove something about the current game?

And I dun care what you think, I only care about what I know. And I know WIFOMs are generally good, when delivered by a townie. The only time it is bad is if a stupid townie delivers it.

Dear God... Why did I just set myself up like that?

[Surye]

WIFOM leads to ambiguity. Ambiguity leads to confusion. Confusion is anti-town... always. This is the way WIFOM progresses if allowed to, regardless of who brings it up. Zombie has failed to produce a link for us (the games are conveniently gone) and his reasoning sucks, in my opinion. He has become lynch target number one.

Vote: ZombieSlayer54

Ok... When was the last time anyone did such a thing as produce a link to a game they participated in to prove something about the current game?

And I dun care what you think, I only care about what I know. And I know WIFOMs are generally good, when delivered by a townie. The only time it is bad is if a stupid townie delivers it.

Dear God... Why did I just set myself up like that?

Yes, you said this:

If a townie delivers a WIFOM, it's good.
If a mafia delivers a WIFOM, it's bad.

So, you expect us to assume you are town? Maybe you are scum, and using the argument to say that because you're town it's good. Or maybe you're town, and actually mean it.

See why your defense of WIFOM it self is WIFOM, it's essentially begging the question, and is a logical fallacy.

We need more votes on ZS.

[Riceballtail]

Dear God... Why did I just set myself up like that?

Because you want to get lynched? Taking one for the team no doubt.

UNVOTE

Vote: ZS

Don't worry, we'll see to it that your scum buddies follow shortly.[/b]

[ZombieSlayer54]

Dear God... Why did I just set myself up like that?

Because you want to get lynched? Taking one for the team no doubt.

UNVOTE

Vote: ZS

Don't worry, we'll see to it that your scum buddies follow shortly.[/b]

I was setting myself up for an insult, not for a lynch...

Read:

[quote="ZombieSlayer54]And I dun care what you think, I only care about what I know. And I know WIFOMs are generally good, when delivered by a townie.

The only time it is bad is if a stupid townie delivers it.

Dear God... Why did I just set myself up like that?[/quote]

See?

Ok, Surye, besides this whole incident, what other evidence do you have to suggest I am a Mafia? If you do not have any other evidence, well, the only thing you should do in this incident is to presume I am a Townie, unless you have evidence outside of this incident to presume I am a Mafia.

Innocent until proven guilty applies here, you know.

[Surye]

Ok, Surye, besides this whole incident, what other evidence do you have to suggest I am a Mafia? If you do not have any other evidence, well, the only thing you should do in this incident is to presume I am a Townie, unless you have evidence outside of this incident to presume I am a Mafia.

Innocent until proven guilty applies here, you know.

Awh, that's so cute You think I'm going to presume you're town when you're using a strategy that is damaging when used by mafia.

[ZombieSlayer54]

Ok, Surye, besides this whole incident, what other evidence do you have to suggest I am a Mafia? If you do not have any other evidence, well, the only thing you should do in this incident is to presume I am a Townie, unless you have evidence outside of this incident to presume I am a Mafia.

Innocent until proven guilty applies here, you know.

Awh, that's so cute You think I'm going to presume you're town when you're using a strategy that is damaging when used by mafia.

Ok, look.

The point is is that you have no evidence that I am Mafia, besides this incident.

Therefore, in this incident, you should presume I am innocent.

Innocent until proven guilty. Seriously. Unless you do not believe in that, of course.