Mafia 79 - "The Amish Mafia" GAME OVER... WHO WON?

[Surye]

/confirm

[Surye]

Hmm... don't see anything wrong with Random Voting, since in a game this large, it's unlikely that the Mafia will be able to turn one random vote into a quick lynch.

RANDOM VOTE: Korts

BEKUZ TEH DICE SAY SO. LAWL.

Vote: ValiantValant

for putting logic on page 1

[Surye]

EBWOP: Well, page 2 with confirms

[Surye]

Bandwagons are good for the soul.

Unvote Vote: Korts

Oh, and

FoS: VV and Korts

as scum buddies, VV seems to be playing a very n00b bussing on him, and it just reeks to me.

[Surye]

The reason why I responded was to continue the discussion. Discussion helps Townies catch Mafiosos, as it gives more of a chance for them to slip up.

So do bandwagons.

[Surye]

FOS Surye.

This random vote bandwagon is getting too serious. You seem to be supporting it.

And bandwagons never help anyone, besides Mafia. It is as bad as quicklynching.

WRONG. It is the single most useful source on information on day 1. Thanks for playing.

[Surye]

Except when you go through with it, Surye.

Then it just ends up being a bad thing. Random voting without the intent of actually lynching whomever you hit is fine to start conversation. Actually intending to lynch someone via random vote is well, just plain stupid.

This game is about logic. Not luck.

Who said I was lynching him? Or even intending to?

FOS: ZombieSlayer54

for over reaction to a harmless wagon on his scumbuddy.

[Surye]

Unvote, Vote: Riceballtail

for complaining about VV's talking too much. Attempting to prevent/lessen discussion is scummy.

FoS: Mellowed Man

for the same reason.

ZS: Why are you attacking Surye for pushing for the Korts wagon, but not Korts for also pushing for the Korts wagon?

Uh, was/is Surye pushing my wagon? I thought he was after VV.

I questioned VV's actions and got on your bandwagon.

[Surye]

Considering how many other votes Korts has, Surye, this seems like you want to push it over the edge.

He was at L-5 when I voted him, what are you on about? Are we even playing the same game?

And unless I am counting wrong, VV is at L-5 too.

So, would you mind telling me how I was being reckless or scummy?

[Surye]

Unvote, Vote: VV

See? A bandwagon was useful, it's cast you into WIFOM, broken logic, and probably ZS as scumbuddy.

Predictions: VV, ZS, and Korts as scum, in that order.

[Surye]

I am sort of seeing the same thing as q21, Celeb's refusal to participate in scumhunting, and looking for a "safe" time to participate is very suspicious to me. So

FOS: Celebloki

But for today, VV seems like a better path, he thinks L-5 is scary, lets see how he reacts to real fire.

[Surye]

Unvote, Vote: VV

See? A bandwagon was useful, it's cast you into WIFOM, broken logic, and probably ZS as scumbuddy.

Predictions: VV, ZS, and Korts as scum, in that order.

Defending someone automatically means that if they are scum, I am scum? Maybe I just do not see the logic that others give?

Of course, you could just have JDodge logic. I luv me sum JDodge logic.

When you defend someone with equally broken logic, yes, it's pretty likely.

[Surye]

Unvote, Vote: VV

See? A bandwagon was useful, it's cast you into WIFOM, broken logic, and probably ZS as scumbuddy.

Predictions: VV, ZS, and Korts as scum, in that order.

Defending someone automatically means that if they are scum, I am scum? Maybe I just do not see the logic that others give?

Of course, you could just have JDodge logic. I luv me sum JDodge logic.

When you defend someone with equally broken logic, yes, it's pretty likely.

Well, consider this.

If I WAS a Mafia, why would I defend a fellow who is obviously dooming himself? Would I not just let him die of his own stupidity, and maybe make it look like others were actually supporting him, rather than trying to defend him?

Oh, gag me with a WIFOM.

I didn't say you were acting like smart scum.

[Surye]

Let me explain what I mean by WIFOMs being a good strategy.

Say you have a WIFOM. Obviously, poisoned. However, any and all Mafia-related WIFOMs will have a poison which ONLY kills Mafia.

I.E. WIFOMs are used to make Mafia slip up. When used on a Townie, it will do nothing but show that they are a Townie, since they did not slip up. In fact, I can not think of a single instance where a WIFOM which I used against someone did not give me accurate results.

Wow, I don't know where to begin. This is so ass-backwards, a WIFOM is an information poison, which is ANTI TOWN not anti mafia. Either you really don't understand WIFOM, or you're digging you hole deeper and deeper.

Hand over the shovel, and let us lynch you. Now I'm serious about a ZS lynch.

Unvote, Vote: ZombieSlayer54

[Surye]

Or maybe I just have different experiences than you.

WIFOMs, in my experience, have always served to make Mafia slip up, or Townie confirmation.

They have never led to a something anti-Town.

I'll explain again more carefully.

Town's only tool is logic.
Mafia's advantage is information.

We agree so far?

Okay, WIFOM is a way to throw logic into an infinite loop, distorting it to provide two mutually exclusive and opposite outcomes as nearly equal possibilities. This makes whatever information used to create the WIFOM useless. That is why it is bad, and always bad, for town.

For pro-mafia, WIFOM cannot make them slip up, because it's not actually claiming anything, it's just putting a possibility out there, but it can put them back in the position of monopoly on information.

But I suspect you know all of this, which is why my vote rests neatly on your head.

[Surye]

Gee, thanks, Marm. I think I'm on Surye's list because of the possible connection between VV and me. I'd be suspcious of myself myself if I weren't myself.

Yea, to be honest, the more the game goes on, the more I think VV was TRYING to implicate you. My suspicions are not what they used to be. ZS and VV are the important ones.

[Surye]

ZS - you say WIFOM can help the town. You also say that logic is the town's only tool. WIFOM has no one logical result - hence doesn't allow the towns only tool to work - hence isn't good for town.

Also, you seem to be protecting VV with you defence of wifom.

unvote vote ZS, FoS VV as partner

*Sigh*

Ok, let me explain, again.

Yes, a WIFOM delivered by a Mafia will only result in the town being hurt, since it poisons the information pool.

While this will hurt the town, the Mafia who delivered the WIFOM will easily be discovered, as his WIFOM will not yield any results of any kind.

However, if a WIFOM is delivered by a Townie, it will prompt discussion from the person(s) it is delivered to. And, as we all know, discussion will ALWAYS help the town.

.... No way. Did you honestly just WIFOM about WIFOM? Congrats, that's a new level.

[Surye]

WIFOM leads to ambiguity. Ambiguity leads to confusion. Confusion is anti-town... always. This is the way WIFOM progresses if allowed to, regardless of who brings it up. Zombie has failed to produce a link for us (the games are conveniently gone) and his reasoning sucks, in my opinion. He has become lynch target number one.

Vote: ZombieSlayer54

Ok... When was the last time anyone did such a thing as produce a link to a game they participated in to prove something about the current game?

And I dun care what you think, I only care about what I know. And I know WIFOMs are generally good, when delivered by a townie. The only time it is bad is if a stupid townie delivers it.

Dear God... Why did I just set myself up like that?

Yes, you said this:

If a townie delivers a WIFOM, it's good.
If a mafia delivers a WIFOM, it's bad.

So, you expect us to assume you are town? Maybe you are scum, and using the argument to say that because you're town it's good. Or maybe you're town, and actually mean it.

See why your defense of WIFOM it self is WIFOM, it's essentially begging the question, and is a logical fallacy.

We need more votes on ZS.

[Surye]

Ok, Surye, besides this whole incident, what other evidence do you have to suggest I am a Mafia? If you do not have any other evidence, well, the only thing you should do in this incident is to presume I am a Townie, unless you have evidence outside of this incident to presume I am a Mafia.

Innocent until proven guilty applies here, you know.

Awh, that's so cute You think I'm going to presume you're town when you're using a strategy that is damaging when used by mafia.

[Surye]

Ok, Surye, besides this whole incident, what other evidence do you have to suggest I am a Mafia? If you do not have any other evidence, well, the only thing you should do in this incident is to presume I am a Townie, unless you have evidence outside of this incident to presume I am a Mafia.

Innocent until proven guilty applies here, you know.

Awh, that's so cute You think I'm going to presume you're town when you're using a strategy that is damaging when used by mafia.

Ok, look.

The point is is that you have no evidence that I am Mafia, besides this incident.

Therefore, in this incident, you should presume I am innocent.

Innocent until proven guilty. Seriously. Unless you do not believe in that, of course.

The same could be said about any scum tell. "It's only a scum tell if scum says it!"

[Surye]

Okay, now we can all agree, lets lynch him.

[Surye]

WIFOMs delivered by a smart townie are useful, out-of-control random bandwagoning is harmful, and all claims do is make people think you are desperate.

Heh, you're an interesting player. Good luck with that strategy in future games.

[Surye]

crap sorry guys. this is prob. the only time I'll be able to post since the internet connection here is the worst I've ever seen so before I get kicked off again

unvote, vote ZS

... Did you seriously just hammer him? Wow, noted.

[Surye]

KScope just posted in a game he's modding in, so he should respond.

[Surye]

The only reason I had to hammer was because I made a mistake voting the first time and didn't unvote. if I hadn't made the mistake, I wouldnt have had to revote. mellowed, on the other hand if it weren't for my mistake would have hammered. Mellowed didn't make a mistake and planned on hammering anyway. I hammered to a) finalize my vote and b) vote for someone that I truly believed was scum.

vote mellowed man

Did you not read all of us complaining that he hammered? That we had things we wanted to do first?

Very untown.

Vote: Babygirl

[Surye]

Claim-time.

BM

He did claim though, if he changes his claim, LAL. Either way, he's going. I'd be willing to hammer, if someone doesn't get to it before I get to a quick pre-hammer re-read.

[Surye]

Aww man, I'm scared the mafia will kill me at night. That's why I claimed one-shot, maybe they'll think I'm useless.

Anyways, BM is an idiot for forgetting I claimed, how can he forget that?


Also, I'll as the vigilante kill whoever the town wants me to kill at night, if you wish, but I'm basically dead already, and the mafia will hammer now, so have fun everyone, I've made a lot of mistakes, but that's part of the game.

So have fun!

P.S.
Since when do I have to say why I want to kill someone. Korts called me a hypocrite at the beginning of the game, and was always wanting to kill me.

"Next person who votes me is scum" I hate that defense. Also you're saying you lied about your role. You were given a chance.

Vote: Mellowed Man

[Surye]

Alright, I'm dead, and I was a VIG. =)

Sorry to Korts, and FOS Surye for being really active Day 1, and now doing this.

Doing what? You basically did all the things that you should never do. You deserved a policy lynch, but you got one on fair votes. If you really were vig, I hope you play better next time.

[Surye]

Interesting, I forgot I had voted before. Hum. Well, I still say MM is playing horribly, but maybe not scummy if he insisted he was vig in "twilight".

Unvote

FoS: Celebloki

You just can't wait to get to your night choice now can you?

This is just silly, you're really reaching here, and it deserves a bandwagon.

Vote:Riceballtail

[Surye]

A wagon isn't to teach you a lesson, it's to pressure you into making another mistake that will reveal you as scum.

[Surye]

I'd like to see more on the Rice train.

[Surye]

This game is falling apart, but I want to see how BG's replacement reacts to her fit when attention was even lightly shined on her. Her inability to take criticism is not a building momentum in the game, which would have lead to a null tell. You need to look at the context, she's always silent when no one is looking at her, but one random comment sends her flying off the handle. I think trying to play scum is what she can't handle.

[Surye]

Because my vote on RBT is achieving nothing. If suddenly a wagon on him springs out of nowhere I'll happily switch back, but do you see that happening?.. no, me neither.

Spineless.

I stand by a RBT lynch.

[Surye]

Is it just me, or is it a telling tell if it is hard to start a wagon on some guys who have more evidence against them, while it is really easy to start a huge wagon, leading to lynch -1 on someone else, who is not as scummy?

Why thank you Mellowed Man.

Also,

unvote, vote: q21

.

Opportunistic scum just got himself caught. It looks as though me and Bowel Movement over there might finally agree on something.

Lol opportunistic yourself.

Vote: Alabaska J

Now try and tell me you arent OMGUSsy scum, purely dominated by the will to survive.

I'm happy to lynch this damn fool whenever.

BM

Seriously, what the hell is Alabaska J playing at? RBT can wait,

Unvote, Vote: Alabaska J

for scummy play. (It rhymed! )

[Surye]

Yes, claim or die.

[Surye]

Can someone hammer this fool?

[Surye]

I hate the "I've given up" defense. Lets end this.

[Surye]

The vote on q21 is genuine, but it looks opportunistic and scummy, and I don't think I can defend it adequately enough after rereading so

unvote

Wrong move buddy.

[Surye]

...what sort of idiot self-votes?

There is no role in the game but a Jester that should EVER self vote. It's equivelent to throwing a fit like a baby.

If he didn't want to play, he should have asked to be replaced.

[Surye]

You know, like BG did. What's with this game.

[Surye]

Thats said, when you die, a Musher lynch might be worth considering. Its possible you are tying your buddy to a townie on your deathbed.

BM

Also, I've given up. That's why there is not more. The vote on q21 is genuine, but it looks opportunistic and scummy, and I don't think I can defend it adequately enough after rereading so

unvote

and hopefully we get something done correctly for tomorrow.

Alabaska is sneaky. He realized that BM messed up his quote tag, and made the BOLDED UNVOTE show up. Therefore, Alabaska pressed to his advantage and decided to pretend to hammer himself. Pretty obvious IMHO.[/quote]

I noticed that too. I doubt it was a gambit though, and I think if BM stands any chance to live this down, he'll come hammer or someone else will. IGMEOY BM for that though.

[Surye]

*also, what kind of idiot scumbag would consider self-hammering to be a gambit that might save his life? Its pretty much a null tell whichever way you look at it.

While it may be a moot point, I tend to disagree. Scum, especially closer to endgame, start to feel "the world is against me and my secrets, they know, I messed up" and this causes frustration and resentment, leading to something as idiotic and rash as a self hammer. So I'd say it's not a scumtell, but it definitely leans scum in my opinion.

[Surye]

I'd like to hear from Sensfan, as BG was next in my sights.

[Surye]

im not sure about the others but ive seen surye posting in other games, its strange hed completely blow this game off.

Not strange, I just have a limited time resource, as posted in other games, and I am working my way though them, this game is up next. The really long nights and weights has caused me to completely lose track of this game, and it's going to take effort to get back in.

But thanks for noticing me <3

[Surye]

im not sure about the others but ive seen surye posting in other games, its strange hed completely blow this game off.

Not strange, I just have a limited time resource, as posted in other games, and I am working my way though them, this game is up next. The really long nights and weights has caused me to completely lose track of this game, and it's going to take effort to get back in.

But thanks for noticing me <3

EBWOP: *waits (man, that was too dumb not to fix).

[Surye]

I'm just fairly suspicious as to how all of my enemies/people who found me suspicious are dead, but yet I haven't killed anyone. Him bringing that fact up makes me think he's trying to peg me with the crime, when I haven't done anything.

This kind of response, in my opinion, is damaging to the town. It creates an atmosphere where analysis and postulation will get you killed. On the other hand, his idea that someone is trying to frame him is an interesting, but probably incorrect play. My guess is it's mostly coincidental.

[Surye]

You wake up to discover that some horrible nasty person has gone and killed

StrangerCoug

, a townie.

It is now day 5. Looking for Surye replacement.

I just never know when this game is not in night phase.

[Surye]

That's actually a decent vote, considering that he's been pretty active in other games.

Vote Kuribo

FoS: q21[/q] Opportunistic much?

Kuribo: If you're town, take your vote off your self right now.

[Surye]

FOS kuribo

for a really bad vote.

[Surye]

Vote Surye

I'm not normally the gut feeling type. I normally shout at the gut feeling types. But I feel Surye's scum.

It probably comes from the fact that one day one when there was someone (ZombieSlayer) who was incredibly scummy (also, innocent) to pick on Surye was rather vicious in his attacks. Since then his play has been more characterised by short comment type posts.

Anyway, I think he's scum.

So, I was active when there was scummy play to discuss, and not when nothing is going on? Fabulous reasoning. I've had limited time resources, and I've been dedicating them to games with more to comment on that were ending soon, or I was going to be dieing in. This game hasn't generated a lot of attention, I'd say I'm not the only one who agrees.

As far as who's playing now, kuribo's nonchalant play does seem consistent with other games I've seen him in, but I still don't like it.

[Surye]

Any thought on the rice case?

Too little, too late. We shouldn't have to drag you kicking and screaming into playing with us.

FOS: Kuribo

This is scummy beyond belief. He's discarding a well laid out case only on the basis of his previous activity level, rather then on the basis of the argument.

And It's a case I happen to like,

Vote: Rice

.

[Surye]

Any thought on the rice case?

Too little, too late. We shouldn't have to drag you kicking and screaming into playing with us.

FOS: Kuribo

This is scummy beyond belief. He's discarding a well laid out case only on the basis of his previous activity level, rather then on the basis of the argument.

And It's a case I happen to like,

Vote: Rice

.

No, I'm discarding it because he only posted it after we kept pushing him to do so. Therefore, it doesn't feel like he put any effort into it, nor is he actively scumhunting.

And niether are proper reasons to discard a case. And I'm not sure why you said no, when you basically repeated exactly what I said you were doing.

[Surye]

Any thought on the rice case?

Too little, too late. We shouldn't have to drag you kicking and screaming into playing with us.

FOS: Kuribo

This is scummy beyond belief. He's discarding a well laid out case only on the basis of his previous activity level, rather then on the basis of the argument.

And It's a case I happen to like,

Vote: Rice

.

But do you really want to lynch your protective role?

Wooo! Loaded questions are awesome. Do you still beat your wife?

[Surye]

And niether are proper reasons to discard a case. And I'm not sure why you said no, when you basically repeated exactly what I said you were doing.

Of course it is. If I think K7 is scummy, then it's a great reason to discard a case--- because if he's scum, that case is false.

Nope! Scum can make great cases. Hell, I've won as scum using great cases (Mafia 78 - Meta Breaking Mafia 1). You should always take the case for case sake before discarding it for ancillary reasons.

[Surye]

The danger is not in considering the case on it's own merit, but assuming the one who made the case is town for building a solid case against scum. But that's a completely different subject.

[Surye]

Don't be so narrow minded kuribo, scum are not so black and white, nor is any point in this game. Ever heard of bussing? Distancing? Scum can build a legit case against a fellow scum. (ex: http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 00#1070500). You need to learn to think beyond the most basic strategies.

[Surye]

You're ignorant for ignoring a case. You should consider all cases based on it's logic and soundness, or all you get is WIFOM. You're free to disregard anything, but it still makes you a bad player.

[Surye]

I'm not voting, because I, with everyone else, have not been playing. I'll try to make an attempt at figuring out where we are in this game today.

[Surye]

That makes me think he's scum even more. Townies know who they're voting for because they have a vested interest in exactly who gets lynched. Scum don't care so long as its a townie.

Hah, I have not looked at this game in weeks as it's be a desolate wasteland. I don't remember as of RIGHT NOW who I am voting for still, because I don't even remember who's even playing in this game. Other games, and life out side this game, means that there is more on my mind till I get synced back up to this game. You're grasping for straws.

[Surye]

q21's complete lack of a case on me (my activity dropped... guess the whole game is scum!). Also, he pushes for RBT hard forever, but now suddenly lacks mentioning him, and just tacks him on the end of a suspect list? q21 hasn't said anything at all really, just pointing fingers every which way, though for some reason, mostly in my direction. Maybe to distract me from RBT? (Who now he's even calling town!) Nice early bus, but it won't fly.

[Surye]

And maybe I was grasping a straws, but despite this game being slow, other games and a fairly hectic rime in RL I never forgot who I was voting for.

Then I guess you're a better man then I.

[Surye]

Would only be the 4th vote, and hence L-1. I'd be okay with his lynch as I think him and Surye are scum together, so I'd hammer.

Heh, I'd respond if you had anything to respond to. But you just keep harping on.

[Surye]

Uh... I don't see much to talk about, I like K7 less than RBT after a re-read. Anyone agree with a hammer (i think) of K7?

My problem is I dislike k7's playstyle in general, so it always looks that way to me. Though I do agree. Here's L-1

Unvote, Vote:K7

[Surye]

Good game scum.
Rice and company will win this game.. they tried to kill me last night apparently.

Have fun with this shitty game with poor modding and lurker happiness.

I thought coug was scum last night so i decided to kill him and not rice. bad mistake i guess.

Wow, way to be a good sport. Had you played your role right, and claimed when you should have, we may have had a chance.

[Surye]

I am D: