Large Normal 212: Korts' Geriatrics - Game Over @1831

[Morality]

not in general. here.

Fair enough. I went site inactive, though, so I don’t really like that assessment from you.

[Eddie Cane]

Hurry up Boon.

I’m active lurking. There’s just a lot of wall posts so I’m trying to have my catchup be in a wall post, so I’m skimming a lot, but I’ll get to it when I get to my computer finally

I’m active lurking. There’s just a lot of wall posts so I’m trying to have my catchup be in a wall post, so I’m skimming a lot, but I’ll get to it when I get to my computer finally

give your top 2 scum and town reads from wherever you're at in the thread with no justification

If you were active lurking, you should have answered this. If you weren't, you lied pointlessly which scum you doesn't really do, so I'll assume you were. You've never lurked this much in our games besides tactically as flavour leaf in Penguin mafia as scum IIRC, and in that normal where you were scum. What do you have so far?

[Morality]

I feel like Eddie’s taking an easy push, and I don’t know how I feel about it.

VOTE: Eddie Cane

[Morality]

I stopped active lurking after I said that

[Eddie Cane]

Mhm. I guess we're 1v1ing then. I am in my town game through and through and I voted your slot because while meta can be manipulated (and I'm a very self aware player as you know) Chamber explicitly voted me because of meta.

[Korts]

Sorry, Morality, but I can't be as lenient with you as I was with Tywin. I already sent out your role PM to your replacement, so you are out of the game.

Tammy replaces Morality.

posted in wrong game lol

[Axelrod]

Tywin

I have to go, but here's the short version.

Tywin only has 3 1/2 posts in this game.

That's a slight understatement, but only slightly. Most of his posts are 1-liners that don't say anything. There's one what I'm going to call a "normal" sized post, and then 3 others.

The three are enormous wall posts, so his wordcount might even be higher than average, but what I just said about KMD (not posting very much, and then trying to dump everything into one big post) applies here. I find that "mode" to be somewhat scummy. And the posts themselves are full of generalizations and misrepresentations. Also, irony, as he complains in at least 2 of his posts about the huge wall posts everyone else is writing.

I could try to break these down later. But, man, would that be another wall.

[roflcopter]

i really still want to lynch axel seriously is no one else seeing this?

i'll answer your questions i didn't answer... later

[Axelrod]

i really still want to lynch axel seriously is no one else seeing this?

I'm not seeing it.

[Firebringer]

I am sick in bed. Eddie Cane why didn’t you respond to me?

I fully support a Tywin wagon btw.

I am slipping with this style >.>

[Tammy]

Hi everyone!

i have not been following this game very much to have many thoughts at the moment. I have read posts here and there, but not in any kind of depth. It will take me some time to catch up though. This is final exam week, and I am buried under a ton of grading that I've got to get through, so it will take me some time to get completely caught up, and I'll probably do it in chunks as I have a minute. Apologies ahead of time for asking questions that have already been asked and answered. If that's the case, no need to get after me for it, just ignore my question and I'll see the answer when I see the answer and ask if I have a follow up.

I do have a couple preliminary thoughts. Hito is probably town based on his "grubby little fingers" or "grubby little hands" comment or whatever he said. Think that phrase points more to him being town because I think he's a player that is in the same type of sphere I am in which town energy isn't quite matched when playing a scum role, and little tones of phrases like that are things that quite frankly I don't even think to say when I'm scum but come rather freely when I'm town. Yes, it's thin. Yes, I'm projecting a bit. It's what I've got.

I'm leaning scum on Tywin. I asked to be added to the replacement list back when Chamber replaced out because I wanted this slot as I was reading Chamber town. But I wasn't at the top of the list so boo. But I did get contacted when Tywin almost was replaced out, and I read through his posts and looked at a recent town game to see what I was getting ready to replace into and thought it was a scum slot. Tywin came back though before I could say yeah I'll replace, so shoo. But I'll need to look back at that and see if he seemed better upon getting back into the game.

Pine felt posturey earlier, but I'm not sure if that's just his play style.

Oh think the chiding people for probably being scum because they're using more words than they need to to say something/anything/nothing is head bangable. It's not an alignment indicative tell for most people, it's personality based so like I've seen that used a couple times on somebody and blech.

Axelrod - you're the same player from mtgs right?

[Tammy]

Also if Magna doesn't pick up his prod and come back when he's one of the main reasons i even looked at this game and wanted to replace in, I'm going to scream.

[Pine]

i really still want to lynch axel seriously is no one else seeing this?

i'll answer your questions i didn't answer... later

I'm down with it.

Hi Tammy! Sorry you replaced into a scumslot!

[Firebringer]

Also if Magna doesn't pick up his prod and come back when he's one of the main reasons i even looked at this game and wanted to replace in, I'm going to scream.

Wow.

Not for me?
Here I thought we were friends.

I see how it is.

[Tammy]

Hi Tammy! Sorry you replaced into a scumslot!

No need to apologize. I read Chamber right and am in fact town.

I may be a bit rusty, but I don't think my town mojo is all gone, so that should be pretty obvious soon enough.

[Eddie Cane]

Isn't Tammy supposed to be the old people version of Creature? God at town, shit at scum? If true this replacement is probably best case because we either get an amazing player or we get a free scum lynch.

-

I had more to add to 354 accidently hit post but Boon's gone so whatever.

[Tammy]

Also if Magna doesn't pick up his prod and come back when he's one of the main reasons i even looked at this game and wanted to replace in, I'm going to scream.

Wow.

Not for me?
Here I thought we were friends.

I see how it is.

There's several people here I'm happy to play with! But Magna is the reason I looked at the game in the first place.

pedit: lol. I think my scum game is a little bit better than Creature's at least. Don't know about God at town, but yeah pretty much you guys got a free easy read here.

[Kison]

Explain your read on the chamber vote better.

My vote & Chamber's on Old Man were practically the same. The only difference is I joked about Old Man's avatar looking scummy. He came up with the BS about town reading me yet went after Chamber's because his vote was blank. Inconsistent & he read way too much into something trivial.

Kison, what specifically about firebringer's posts doesn't add up?

When I took the time to read the game thoroughly, his posts stood out & looked like fake effort. He had very few actual opinions on the game. The only strong read that I could pick out was scum on MoI which I don't see at all. This could be his playstyle. I don't know. I wanted to get more out of him mainly.

i don't like the tywin wagon

Definitely curious to see what you don't like about it.

i could go for a lynch on hitogoroshi or Tywin if this day gets too long and we compromise between the two.

Don’t really like either of their postings up till now and don’t think I will get any quality read either since I don’t really want to read any of their posts either.

What don't you like about their posting? How can you not like it if you aren't even reading them?

Kison why is ur vote not on muah

I could move back. You're not my favorite pick for the day though. My vote in part was to motivate you in the event you're just super lazy, unmotivated town but I don't think it did much to help. Anyway, Tywin is a better lynch.

Looking forward to seeing where KMD's vote lands. Less eager to join his wagon for the moment.

[Kison]

Then there's a sequence where he, for lack of better words, "sucks up" to MoI a bit.

MoI - No? You're fantastic when scum, so I don't thoroughly trust my TR of you. Take that as the compliment it is intended.

It also deserves to be said that I *want* you to be Town. We universally work well together when we're on the same side.

Hey Old Man.

Be less smug and condescending. If you're so out of touch you don't have any idea who Magna is, you definitely need to fuck off of your high horse.

And proceeds to sheep MoI with a vote for Old Man after. None of that feels particularly Townie to me either.

This seems pretty weak to me. I don't see those posts as sucking up, or at least, I don't think scum-Pine would be foolish enough to think he could manipulate town-MoI that way. Why do you think his vote was sheeping?

I'd like to know what you think about Firebringer's posting as well.

[Tammy]

Made it through the first three pages and that's all I'll probably get through tonight. I have other responsibilities and I HAVE to get some of this grading done tonight. If I make some progress and I have some time, I'll try to get another couple pages done before I go to bed.

I don't really get a whole lot out of early pages of games, especially when I'm not there, so there's not too much.

As far as Cooldog's claim eh don't care. I treat claims like that the same way I treat miller claims. Who cares, evaluate based on on play. I'm not sure I've ever seen a fake pgo claim before, but eh. Oh though I do remember reading someone talking about how it was more likely town due to normal roleset guidelines etc., and I do caution you from town clearing him based on that. Town clearing someone based on normal ruleset guidelines and how many non-normal rules are allowed in the normal games etc only works if you're playing with someone who has a clear understanding of said rule and what to expect/not to expect. I don't really play many normal games, so like I'm clueless to those rules and what roles are in them until it gets brought up in the random normal games I play from time to time and who knows what cooldog's experience or the scum team's experience with that is. I believe my one experience with cooldog was my first official game onsite (first actual got eaten by tigers ) and he played the role of too damn stupid to be scum but was scum so like there's my baseline. Anyway just wanted to point that one out.

I actually kind of liked the beginning game concern about pine and eddie not posting confirm in the game thread. There's a little part of me that thinks it's a good little paranoid look for Magna, but I'm not jumping in that hole that deeply because yeah. Also think the playfulness about lynching Old Man for being an alt was a nice early touch. Not enough for a town read there on either of those fronts, but no red flags yet.

I don't have any issues with Eddie as of yet. I'm not sure how I would have felt real time though; I do vaguely remember him explaining some of his early game stuff and thinking okay so that could be coloring how I think about his early game play.

Not a big fan of Pine's posts though. He's just felt posturey every single time I've read a post of his. (I remember reading a post of his a couple pages ago in response to pj I think that I kinda liked, so there's a bit of a disjointedness here, but welp that's what I get for creeping here and there on this game hoping for a replace out.) Anyway,

daaaaaaaaammmmmmmmitttttttt:

But even though I don't care about that initial tell I really don't like Pine's reaction here. Seems weird that he first offered the "reason" of PMing to "ask a rules question" about rule 4 in advance of anyone actually posting anything rough, then immediately get in to spats and then later say "oh, I always confirm by PM".

I thought I was feeling clever for feeling this reaction and then boom. Although far it could have been a post I read before and I thought I had an original thought I didn't actually have and unconsciously plagiarized it before I got to it again, but yes this.

The "I confirmed by pm for a ruleset question on enforcement of toxicity" felt weak. I look at this playerlist and I don't know really who he was hoping to check on that for? If you always confirm by pm as matter of course it seems that would be the first response, so the answer feels made up. I'm not the biggest fan of Pine's interaction with Chamber either; that's where I got my first ping of him feeling posturey. Chamber's early game frustration was so real that Pine's reaction to him read completely off.

Axelrod reads okay to me so far. If he is indeed the same player from mtgs, and I think he is, then it feels business as usual. Hopefully we'll get along better than the last game we played together when I had a near melt down of frustration over the way he was reading the game and me though!

[MagnaofIllusion]

Prod acknowledged ... this last weekend has been a long and emotionally painful one so I haven't really had time to do much more than occasionally phone scan.

I might be able to put together a post of some size tonight depending and know I have some responses for OldMan, PJ and someone else escaping my brain ATM.

So, so glad Tammy replaced into that slot. I had Chamber as Town but Boon tried to kill that read. Just my scanning of Tammy's entrance gives me a solid feeling she's Town and I'm very happy to have a sounding board.

Tammy

- thank you thank you for joining and for seeing what I'm seeing so far with some of your last post's reads (Axel is of particular comfort as there has been a bunch of shade going his way I couldn't grok). As you work your way through if you have reads you feel very divergent on from mine please let's confab on them. Also - how good are you at reading Fire?

[Kmd4390]

Axel (in response to post 307):
You said you believe me to be avoiding the game. So I'll ask you the same question I asked Insanity: what is the scum benefit to doing that rather than simply being caught up and under the radar? You then go on to list three posts. One was me being busier than I expected one day. The other is my lost post (my computer sucks). And the third is me going V/LA because I work 16 hour days with zero internet access (electronics are contraband and can get me fired and/or arrested). All of those are real life things. I know people do some grimy things in mafia games now, but I'd hope lying about RL is still something that doesn't happen much if at all. Either way, it's not something I'd do or have ever done in ten years of playing this game.

You also called my questions "random" implying they don't count as content. In the post you quoted, I asked for clarification on Old Man's town read on Kison that I don't agree with. I asked Hito about his Tywin-Pine associative. I questioned Jelly on his Eddie read that I don't think is genuine. And I asked if anyone is more familiar than I am with Insanity because the "I don't deserve your town read" thing can be a very strong town tell for some players and I want to know if Insanity is one of those players. I don't see how any of this qualifies as random or why it isn't worth pursuing. It's what stood out to me. Is there anything specific you'd like my stance on that I haven't commented on already?

And I think I want to mostly ignore your jab at me "not trying". I don't have much time for mafia, but I do what I can and when I'm here I'm putting in full effort. I'd be doing the same even if I was scum. I'm a competitive person and I want to win anything I play in. Mafia is just one of many examples of that.

you were crying so hard about

This, I WILL ignore. If you want an answer to anything that was in that paragraph, please rephrase. I'm not gonna be talked to like that.

I also see some stuff about my Eddie vote. I've addressed that a few times since you asked. If that didn't answer your questions, feel free to let me know what is missing.

_____________________________

Maybe before asking questions in a catch-up, see if I answer that question on like, the next page.

Or you could quote that knowing I hadn't read up that far. ... but anyway... so it's a meta read specific to how he interacts with you. That's fair, but it doesn't do much for me unfortunately.

_____________________________

But you had posted since these posts happened, and kept your vote on me and said nothing. Posts like 79 did not give any indication you weren't following the game. Why didn't you call out those votes sooner? Idgi

Meh. I was still voting you so other votes on you didn't stand out and I was kind of having trouble getting anything out of the thread at that point. Everything felt dry and dull and pointless. It's not often I re-read, but I felt like I had to do it there and it helped. Noticing more about those votes is a big part of that.

_________________________

Tywin vs Hito is hard for me to sort. Tywin's point about Hito voting him over Pine seemed like a good argument, but Hito is correct that he voted Pine first (I'd forgotten that). I can see where Tywin is coming from with the whole thing about early wagons usually being on town even if I don't agree that you should just assume that to be the case, but that's all theory talk. That same post could appear in MD which means it can be easily posted here if he's scum. I think the biggest takeaway for me is actually Kison's point. The whole thing about Tywin assuming Eddie is town except when he's going after Hito. I'm actually starting to come around on Kison as town I think. I dunno, people seem more sure on Tywin being scum than I probably ever will be. But I can see it. If Kison is town, I see the first four votes as town votes so that should count for something.

___________________

{OM, CD}
{Insanity, Kison}
{Roflcopter, MoI}
{Axel, Pine, Hito}
{Fire, Tywin}
{PJ}
{KMD}
{Morality}

Not too far off from my own reads, minus myself as scum of course. Swap your third and fourth tiers, move Firebringer up and Kison down a little, and swap Jelly and Boon and I think that's pretty much where I'm at. Oh, and pencil your name in where Kison's was. So, this:
{Old Man, CoolDog}
{Eddie, Insanity}
{Axel, Pine, Hito, Firebringer}
{Kison, Magna, Rofl}
{Tywin}
{Boon}
{Jelly}

_______________________

Sorry, I did use the word obvious. Skimming error. Still, "overt" was the operative word there, and that difference remains valid.

I'm actually not completely sure of the difference between the two... And I'm still curious what it was that made you feel that way about Hito.

@Kmd, do you usually do page-by-page catchups without reading ahead in the thread?

Was 270 what you had planned to post at 229, or were there other things you wanted to say?

I pretty much always read the thread in order without skipping things if that's what you mean. 229 was mostly directed at Old Man's entrance. It wasn't much but it was frustrating at the time.

_________________________________

Axel:

1) "Active" lurking. Of the kind where you pop in every so often to make a post that doesn't say a whole lot, or asks a random question, or makes an excuse for why you haven't been posting.

Active lurking is being here and not posting. If I'm not posting, I'm not here. But yeah this boils down to you suspecting me for real life.

2) His vote for Eddie. Initially unexplained, 4th on the wagon. Eddie had not even made a post in the game yet. Now, reasonable minds can disagree, and some might argue that it's even good strategy to run someone up really fast for no reason at all, but IF that's your rationale, you had best follow through and/or do something to show that this was what you were doing. KMD did not. In fact, Eddie posted soon afterwards and proceeded to get two more very quick votes.

I've been over this one. Did you miss it or did it just not satisfy you?

In fact, Eddie posted soon afterwards and proceeded to get two more very quick votes. KMD's response - in as much as there was a response, was to say, in #63:

If Eddie's vote on me was a joke, I don't get it.

That's after the 6th vote has been placed on Eddie. So, if I'm reading that, my feeling is that this is KMD expressing support for this wagon. Not that it was random RVS, not that he was "reaction testing", but that he's got a reason to be here, and he's staying here. The vote sticks until #192.

Wrong. That's me saying that if there was a joke, I didn't get it.

Your point #3 is basically showing where I address your suspicions without saying there's anything else wrong. But as for this:

But that was in #310. Where was this defense when the wagon/votes were happening?

I was still voting Eddie. I wasn't questioning the votes until I got a town read on him. Just because the initial reason for the wagon wasn't anything solid doesn't mean I'm gonna attack everyone who jumps on before I have a read on Eddie or before I have better suspicions.

Some of the other stuff in #192 is okay. I like that he's addressing a bunch of topics of conversation, and some of his responses seem reasonable enough. But it's such a big dump post, immediately followed by a week of more lurking, it's the kind of thing I can see a scum doing, working themselves up to "say something" because they know they have to, and then hoping it's enough to make people leave them alone.

And...I'll say it again. This is you suspecting me for real life. I'm not about to smuggle a cell phone into work and get myself into trouble over a mafia game. It's just not something I'd do and that's true regardless of my alignment in any game.

_________________________

Also, Morality flaking is probably scum :/

when has me flaking EVER been scum indicative?

not in general. here.

Huh? I had my issues with Chamber in that slot, but Boon is right. Inactivity for him is usually a town tell. You acknowledge that in that last quote. Can you tell me why this time is different?

I feel like Eddie’s taking an easy push, and I don’t know how I feel about it.

VOTE: Eddie Cane

I see that Morality got replaced, but I don't like that in this post he still doesn't answer Hito's question

________________________

And the posts themselves are full of generalizations and misrepresentations

Um, what? This is the first you've mentioned this. Point them out or I'll assume you're throwing out buzzwords just to make your "case" sound stronger.

________________________

i really still want to lynch axel seriously is no one else seeing this?

Is this your case:

voteparking on pine, cheerleading the eddie wagon, giving kmd a red flag for being on the eddie wagon, and repeatedly defending old man while not quite calling him a townread.

Because it's all you've said about Axel other than just he's scum. Why are any of the things you listed there scummy?

_____________________

Isn't Tammy supposed to be the old people version of Creature? God at town, shit at scum? If true this replacement is probably best case because we either get an amazing player or we get a free scum lynch.

I was scum with Tammy in a game nancy modded and she played well. She seems to have the idea she's not good at scum and it does seem to stress her out to be scum, but "shit at scum" isn't at all something I'd agree with based on that game.

_____________________

When I took the time to read the game thoroughly, his posts stood out & looked like fake effort. He had very few actual opinions on the game. The only strong read that I could pick out was scum on MoI which I don't see at all. This could be his playstyle. I don't know. I wanted to get more out of him mainly.

Meh. I understand the fake vibe, but I think it comes from him trying to unnaturally stretch out posts for his new style. More opinions would be nice though.

_________________________

Looking forward to seeing where KMD's vote lands. Less eager to join his wagon for the moment.

Vote petroleumjelly

_________________________

And with that I'm fully caught up. I am going to the Yankees game tomorrow and working Wednesday and Thursday so I'm gonna announce a

V/LA until Friday

. However, I'll be around to check in at times tomorrow and I don't at all expect to fall too far behind in just a few days. Friday I should be back to the pace I've been at these past few days.

[Old Man]

As suggested, I have done a cursory meta readthrough of both MagnaofIllusion and Pine, in order to determine their overall competency levels as scum (as well as town) with my own personal benchmarking system, so that I can have a better handle on how they're playing in this game and what that means for their alignments.

My focus was originally on Magna, since the information presented thus far in this game has been rather unsatisfactory to me, so I took Magna up on his offer to metadive him myself. However, on my dive of Pine, I have noticed some distressing things that have certainly taken over my attention. I will explain them later. For now, here are my discoveries.

Findings:

MagnaofIllusion

Scum:

From what I've seen, I believe that I will have to commend Magna on his scumgame, he indeed does deliver decent performances as scum. He is able to manipulate the town, remain active in the game while remaining off the suspect list for most townspeople, as well as control the game in his favor. He's able to push extremely anti-town reads and stances while making them seem like they are coming from a town agenda, which is an expert skill for scum. Just take a look at this game where his entire team gets lynched consecutively, yet he manages to solo carry the game to the end, though admittedly it's only a short minigame. Or, this game where he won Final 3 despite the town hammerer having a healthy amount of paranoia and respect for MoI's scumgame, yet "failed to find any good reasons to vote Magna". Anyway, MoI is actually good at scum.

Town:

Unfortunately, Magna's towngame is... considerably weaker. He has a habit of tunnelling on town, which I believe is a result of shallow and superficial reasons for his reads. This is unfortunate. In this game, he tunnelled on havingfitz for the entire game, successfully getting him lynched, but, he flipped town. Although he did catch AnonymousGhost and Almost50 scum correctly at some point of the game, the fact that he backed off on those reads quickly, or not being as sure/actionable on them as he was on his havingfitz push, gives him little credit for those correct reads. This isn't an isolated occurrence, sadly, as in this game he tunnels momo for the entire game as well, and he flips town. This has come to a point where the more games I look at in Magna's meta where he was town, I can predict the alignment of his tunnel victim before I even look at the flips (PS: they flipped town), which made me disappointed considering the amount of praise I had given above for his scumgame. I stopped early.


________________________

Pine

Scum:

Pine's scumgame is... not as powerful as advertised. But this may be the result of looking at MoI's better scumgame earlier in comparison. Although he does a decent enough job of staying under the radar, Pine doesn't have the degree of control or manipulation over the town as MoI does. In fact, what Pine mostly does is to have a decent start at the game, but then proceeds to coast or active lurk throughout the rest of the game and hope that townies don't catch on to him. This is often done with a high effort but definitely fakeable "wallpost" (see:Pine's ISO in this game) which would only have the capability to fool weaker towns who have the misconception that "effort = town". With all that criticism said, Pine's method certainly does work, and he does win games with this strategy, see this game where he won in Final 3, but I have the belief that Pine's play will buckle to the pressure of a much stronger town.

Anyway, it's getting late, and I've seen enough.

Pine's active lurking in this game is too reminiscent of his "strong start, then active lurking" strategy that he commonly demonstrates as scum.

VOTE: Pine

I am not abandoning the Tywin wagon, especially when it so conveniently grew during my absence, which is great, but, given the generous amount of time we have remaining, I'd like to explore other avenues while we can.

I recall hito earlier making a case for Tywin being connected to Pine. This certainly confirms and supports my theory here.

[Pine]

Hey Old Man, fuck you *thumbsup*

@Mod: Immediate emergency V/LA. Lady Pine and I about to leave for the hospital to welcome baby Pinecone! Yayyyy! I may or may not check in over the next couple of days, depending on how often I can/need to take a break from being a new dad. Posting should stabilize over the next week or so.

Break out the cigars!

[Kmd4390]

Old Man, why didn't you look at Pines town game? I feel like I remember him starting strong then slowing down as both alignments.

Pine, congrats!!!