Large Normal 212: Korts' Geriatrics - Game Over @1831

[Kison]

Tywin's latest post is pretty awful. First, because he still isn't doing any kind of analysis and is simply engaging in the exact same narrow argument & ignoring everything else in the game, including where I directly address him. This was his "catch up" post so I would expect him to be talking about more. This suggests to me he's not really trying to figure anything out despite the appearance of effort. He's just digging into the same Hito and Axel argument and that's it.

Secondly, and I think more importantly, what Hito pointed out about his inconsistent read on Eddie read is true. In the first two paragraphs, he makes it seem like he's 100% certain the Eddie wagon is scum-driven and that this nearly 100% of the time happens against a town player. In other words, he's pretty damn bullish on the idea of Eddie being town.

I maintain that stance still, and because the fact that both got wagons first, going as far as L1 or L2 almost immediately makes me assume it was scum driven 100%.

...and what I've seen in nearly every single game aside from a very small minority is that the first wagon or two is almost always on town. If the wagon is a bullshit case, it's almost 100% on town. I assume this in every single game, because it's a simple fact.

When it comes to attacking Hito, he's not nearly as bullish:

Its possible Eddie is your scum buddie too based on how you both ignored him in favor of Pine, but that's only if you flip scum first.

If you vote one of them, I think it should be based on their responses, not the confirmation thing, and in that situation, Eddie looks scummier of the two. He didn't even join the game until later, while Pine looked pretty upfront about the situation from the start. You TR Eddie though and went after Pine (along with Axel mostly) almost 100%, rather than also look at Eddie at all.

Magma: looks like you're asking me why I don't SR Eddie, not because of the wagon, but because his responses were bad? Well, I agree with you. He did look fairly scummy at the start, although he did start playing after. I just see the wagon on him and Pine as being scummier based on what specific players did with it, plus what they are still trying to do with it. I see both wagons as being scum driven, although if one of them were scum, my guess is it would be Eddie. That's based on pairing Axel/Hito going after only Pine. Notice that Axel and Hito ignored Eddie entirely and went hard after Pine instead, although their reasoning should've also fit Eddie just as much. Both failed to confirm in the thread, so why give one a pass and not the other?

This is very inconsistent, in the exact same post.

UNVOTE: Firebringer
VOTE: Tywin Lannister

I know there's more on this page & some people asked me questions but this caught my attention & now it's late as hell. I'll address other stuff tomorrow. For now, I want to hear more from Tywin. I want to see him address the inconsistency above & talk about other players in the game beyond this little back and forth. I'd also like to see him talk more about PJ & Axel, particularly their play since post 99. They're in his scum list but he's not said anything new about them since very early in the game.

[Korts]

Vote Count

(3) Tywin Lannister - Old Man, hitogoroshi, Kison
(2) Eddie Cane - petroleumjelly, Morality
(2) Axelrod - Pine, roflcopter
(2) Kmd4390 - MagnaofIllusion, insanity018
(2) Pine - Axelrod, CooLDoG
(2) Morality - Firebringer, Eddie Cane
(1) hitogoroshi - Tywin Lannister

not voting:

Kmd4390

8 to lynch

Deadline is 6 PM EST on Monday the 28th of May.

[Korts]

roflcopter, Morality, and Firebringer have been prodded.

[insanity018]

Oh, and I never said I forgot Pine or Eddie exist. I said I dont care about them today, because they aren't my focus. I don't SR them, so why would they be? My scum pool are the ones who hard pushed bad rvs wagons and continue to do so. If you vote one of them, I think it should be based on their responses, not the confirmation thing, and in that situation, Eddie looks scummier of the two. He didn't even join the game until later, while Pine looked pretty upfront about the situation from the start. You TR Eddie though and went after Pine (along with Axel mostly) almost 100%, rather than also look at Eddie at all. Your reasoning for SRing Pine is no different than why you should supposedly SR Eddie, yet that is not what happened. Axel did the exact same thing, ignoring Eddie and going hard after Pine, when both had the same case. Looks like a pair of scum buddies to me. Its possible Eddie is your scum buddie too based on how you both ignored him in favor of Pine, but that's only if you flip scum first. Aka you and Axel (and to a lesson extent PJ) are the best scum to flip today. .

It seems like your scumreads are based on a massive over-simplification then. As far as I can see, Axelrod and Hito's votes on Pine were based on Pine's response of "I PM'd the mod a question" and "I always PM the mod", rather than Pine's lack of confirmation itself.

Also -

Roflcopter is town. Said Axel and Hito are scum.
Kison is town. Hito voting him.
Morality I honestly can't remember ever seeing them post in this game. Null

chamber was one of your top 3 scumreads in 99. Morality replaced chamber. What is your read of that slot now?

This is pretty shallow reasons for townreading roflcoptor and Kison. Do you like anything about their actual posting or content? Do you think it's possible that scum could bus?

VOTE: Tywin Lannister

I think I prefer this to waiting for Kmd to catch up. That said, I don't really like the page-by-page catchup and not skimming ahead to see what's happened in the game.

[roflcopter]

vote: hito

[Firebringer]

Prod receiver.
I don’t have anything to say about the current game.

This is mostly to say I am still here and not dead, but not in mood for the mafias.

Kison why is ur vote not on muah
Insanity because Eddie Cane
Eddie Cane I think I elaborated on pj quite a bit and if I didn’t pj gave details related to it. Also you still haven’t guessed my townread on u
Kmd <3
Magna is now saying I’m scum, really reaching with his reasoning.

I will talk to you all maybe Monday.
Sorry this isn’t a very long post

[hitogoroshi]

vote: hito

Let me give you the same question I gave Pine - how would you feel about Tywin/KMD lynches today? Because empty-voting seems like more of a symbolic protest but presumably if I'm your vote target you're not that happy with the momentum on Tywin.

[Pine]

Oh, I forgot to answer that question. In brief, I would fight a D1 lurker lynch of KMD, but not oppose Tywin. I think there are better choices than Tywin though

[roflcopter]

i don't like the tywin wagon

i could live with kmd hanging

[Kmd4390]

The Old Man stuff early on page 8 doesn't interest me. It doesn't feel game-related at all. People just seem annoyed with him and I can't get a read off of that annoyance or his own actions. Magna vs Old Man for example, Magna asked everyone but Old Man whether we think Old Man was trying to get Magna's self meta or insult him. I don't see the purpose in answering that. What I will say if Magna has played enough mafia that I'm not going to try to read him based on self-meta even if he does provide it.

Rofl's push seems to be purely policy (correct me if I'm wrong). I feel like I remember Rofl pushing policy in the past, but I don't remember his alignment when he did it. Note to self to look that up.

[Eddie Cane]

This is as of #323
{OM, CD}
{Insanity, Kison}
{Roflcopter, MoI}
{Axel, Pine, Hito}
{Fire, Tywin}
{PJ}
{KMD}
{Morality}

[Kmd4390]

Ok, let's see if I can finish this up in one more sitting. I should have quite a bit of time as long as I don't fall asleep (it's almost 1AM as I'm starting).

Starting on Page 8...

Another Firebringer post that I like. This one gives me a lot more town vibes than the first two did. It's specifically the way he talks about his read on Magna. At the risk of using a buzzword that is hard to back up, it feels genuine to me. The discrediting tell feels like one he actually believes in.

I've reached my own post. I gave the following reads:

1. I have some level of a town read on the following players: Axel, CoolDog, Eddie, Hito, Magna, Pine, Rofl

2. I have some level of a scum read on the following players: Jelly, Chamber, Kison

3. I need to do a better job sorting the following players: Firebringer, Insanity, Old Man, Tywin

What has changed:
-Town reads on Magna and Rofl have diminished a bit.
-Firebringer and Old Man are now town reads.
-Insanity is a town read pending something.

_______________

I see some suspicion flying at Tywin, but I'm not really seeing why. I hope this gets explained later. If not, can someone do that? I don't really have a read on Tywin right this second.

______________

This is a great post. Well, actually I'm not super sold on Old Man as scum because I'm also on the lynching Tywin train, but the main point stands that the wall wars are polluting this game and are undoubtedly pro-scum no matter the alignment of the participants, and this is a good attempt at cleanup that scum probably wouldn't have tried for.

You're making an assumption that Rofl agrees with you that walls are helping scum. I personally don't get why you think that and I'm not sure I'd make that assumption that Rofl sees it the same way.

My biggest takeaway from it is what I've already said: Axel, who didn't actually join the wagon but sorta kinda condoned it & threw his vote in with Pine instead. It really did read as "I don't want to be #7 on this thing."

Meh. That stood out to me for a second, but what town player wants to put someone at L-1 at that point in the game?

KMD finally posted @192 and it was...weird. He actually goes through the wagon on Eddie, looking at all the votes, and remarking on which ones seemed like normal RVS, what ones could have come from town and what ones pinged him, but he completely ignores/omits any reference to his own vote? Which was the Fourth one.

Yeah, I'm not gonna analyze my own vote. I already know I'm town so what would I be trying to gain by trying to figure out my own thought process?

So @KMD: what was up with your vote for Eddie? Did you see that he had three on him already and that you would be #4? If it was RVS, did it concern you at all when two more people jumped on after you, putting Eddie to L-2? You certainly didn't say anything about it, and you didn't unvote.

This is kind of a Red Flag for me on KMD here.

I didn't have a better reason to vote anyone than the one Magna gave on Eddie and figured a wagon could be useful anyway. At the time, no, more votes on the person I was voting didn't bother me. I still wanted to see the wagon build so maybe we could get something out of it.

Hito is giving me overtly wolfy vibes, but I don't think a pro player like him would be that obvious. Or would he? Christ I just WIFOM-bombed myself.

I'd lynch any in {Chamber, Old Man, Axel} right now. {Hito, Firebringer} also giving me bad vibes, but are not D1 lynches atm due to insufficient confidence.

Can you elaborate on Hito here? You say he's being obvious without saying how, but then list him in the insufficient confidence tier. What is he doing that is "obvious"? I've actually been townreading him myself.

This is a distinction without a difference. I obviously had reasons for 'listing' those three people that I was simply choosing not to elaborate on at the time. Why did you give Eddie Cane credit for having reasons, but not me?

Really? Because he said there were reasons and he was waiting and you...didn't. I don't buy that you can't see the difference.

You then proceed to discuss Pine's reaction and chamber's reaction to Eddie Cane's reaction... but you somehow don't actually discuss Eddie Cane's reaction.

So what do you think of Eddie Cane's reaction to his wagon?

You're misunderstanding my quote. I didn't mean his reaction to the wagon. It was more Magna's post specifically, so Eddie's entrance. The fact that he stuck to the whole withholding reasoning for scumreading me thing despite six votes on him. To me, that says he cares more about getting his read on me right than he cares about being wagoned. Scumhunting over survivalism. I realize he eventually got annoyed at being wagoned, but I think that's pretty normal for him and he didn't let it discourage him from what he was trying to do.

I fullclaim Day 2 Innocent Child.

Well then.

I would also like to see KMD commit to a vote. You've not had one placed since Eddie.

I'll vote when I've read the thread. My vote would have been on Jelly from the time I unvoted to the time you said this though if I'd been caught up.

_______________________

I'm loving how this game is like 95% real content and only like 5% bullshit, but that also makes every page that much more to read. I'm only through page 10 and my eyes kind of hurt. I'm gonna take a break and might or might not pick this back up tonight. If not, I'm hoping for a similar stretch of time tomorrow night. Also could try to read a page or so when I get up in the morning. I really want to be caught up on this because once I get there I think staying there will be easy.

[Pine]

I didn't say "obvious." I said "overt." There's a rather significant difference which renders your question moot.

[Pine]

Sorry, I did use the word obvious. Skimming error. Still, "overt" was the operative word there, and that difference remains valid.

[Kmd4390]

But KMD gets my vote for yet another post that avoids him directly addressing Eddie’s reasoning for voting him

*shrug*. Hadn't seen it yet. Can't address what I haven't read.

_______________

Yikes. 255 has me starting to see what all the Tywin hate is about. I don't see why he has Axel as scum. I think the scum read on Hito is weird (is hito only allowed two scum reads?). Says he agrees with Magna's thought process, but doesn't get specific on that. Rofl and Kison town reads seem to assume his scum reads are 100% correct. I know Tywin is better than this. What is going on here?

_______________

KMD: It's weird that he's still voting you and not acknowledging that you have given a reason for your vote of him. While the lost post in 229 must be frustrating, it's weird that he hasn't at least posted a brief description of the points he wanted, especially since he knew he would be going V/LA.

You're incorrect about my vote. I unvoted before you said this. I didn't acknowledge Eddie's reason because I hadn't seen it yet. And I didn't summarize the lost post because I was annoyed, like I said. So you gave three points: One is flat out wrong and the other two have nothing to do with my alignment.

The other people I've expressed suspicions of include <snip> And (2) KMD, who has also made unfulfilled promises of future posts

You probably (or at least hopefully) don't realize this, but that means you're suspecting me for having an annoying work schedule and very little free time. I assure you that I don't call into work when I'm town in mafia games.

_________________

Through page 11.

[insanity018]

@Kmd

, do you usually do page-by-page catchups without reading ahead in the thread?

Was 270 what you had planned to post at 229, or were there other things you wanted to say?

@roflcoptor

113. 134. 135 all from insanity

this is such a weird interaction between insanity, axel and hito, especially in light of insanity now voting me on account of my axel scumread

What is so weird? I think I've been pretty transparent that I've found things that were odd in Axel's post, questioned him and am fine with his responses. How and why does my vote change your view of those conversations?

[Axelrod]

I've got a bit of time this afternoon, so I'm going to try and catch up on a few things, mainly reviewing people. There's two ways for me to do this, the short way and the long way. People who already don't like that I'm "using a lot of words to not say that much" would probably not like the long way , but it's where my natural tendencies lean.

I guess we'll see how it goes.

[Kmd4390]

Very happy with my vote. KMD’s latest post is basically a rehash of the beginning of his first catchup to some degree and he has no reason to be going that far back when lots of things have occurred since then. He continues to avoid the direct question of whether Eddie’s reason for voting him was valid or not.

I don't like skipping things. I have about a decade of meta to back that up. I went back and picked up where I left off and if I get behind again, that's what I'll do again. I want context. I don't want to come in and see a wagon popped up on someone and have no idea where it came from. For example, had I skipped things here, I'd have missed old man's claim. That's kind of important to know about.

________________

Kison, what specifically about firebringer's posts doesn't add up?

Similarly, would join this wagon. KMD, seriously. Why are you still not voting after all this time? Even with the post you lost & subsequent halfway catchup reread, I'd expect you to at least be able to summarize your thought process & vote

I've given my reads a couple of times. The vote will come when I'm caught up. If a read somewhere wasn't clear or you want to know where my vote would have been at any time, go ahead and ask.

His early posts look like active lurking / avoidance; he makes a point to post in the thread, but he does so without offering actual opinions. In particular, he struck me as nervous in Post #83. His reaction was so over-the-top / insulting; I think he was trying to act 'tough' to mask his concern over his wagon.

I don't see nervousness there. I see condescending and showing that he belongs in a game with a strong playerlist by not backing down.

Kmd's "catchup" 270 feels like just stalling. If that's the gist of the post he supposedly lost, I don't see why he would have been so upset about losing it. And couldn't have posted it earlier.

Meh. I didn't lose much. It was mostly questions to Old Man about his posts at the bottom of page 4. At the time, when I saw all those words disappear and couldn't get them back, it felt like more and it pissed me off. But looking back it could have been a lot worse than that. Can you tell me what the scum benefit would be in "stalling"? Because I think that would be more likely to lead to votes on me, not less.

__________________

Through Page 12.

[Axelrod]

So,

Pine.

I still don't like his "confirmation explanation". I've pointed out at least once already (and Pine has not responded to it as far as I can see) that he's given two different explanations for why he confirmed by PM to the mod. as opposed to in the thread, and the first one was already strange.

After that, the next thing he did was get into a spat with Chamber over something completely irrelevant - whether or not Old Man should be using an Alt. I didn't get how aggressive he was being there. And he followed it with a vote for Chamber that wasn't very good. He said Chamber had engaged in 2 "BS" pushes (1 on Old Man presumably, and 1 on Eddie). Except neither of those things were true. Chamber hadn't "pushed" Old Man at all. He just vented about his dislike for hidden alts. And his "push" on Eddie wasn't BS. Eddie was totally acting strange. So, I call Bad Vote.

He gives Town points to roflcopter for his reaction to cooldog's claim post. Eh. This is fine as far as it goes. I disagree with the conclusion (that scum could/would not have responded like that), but it's mostly null.

Then there's a sequence where he, for lack of better words, "sucks up" to MoI a bit.

MoI - No? You're fantastic when scum, so I don't thoroughly trust my TR of you. Take that as the compliment it is intended.

It also deserves to be said that I *want* you to be Town. We universally work well together when we're on the same side.

Hey Old Man.

Be less smug and condescending. If you're so out of touch you don't have any idea who Magna is, you definitely need to fuck off of your high horse.

And proceeds to sheep MoI with a vote for Old Man after. None of that feels particularly Townie to me either.

#219 is his (only) mention of me. And it's basically just the "using a lot of words to not say much" thing. I feel like, certainly by #219, that argument is super-inaccurate, and this is just a lazy suspicion, thrown out there with no justification whatsoever. Which you can do. I've said before and will say again, you don't need much to have a suspicion of someone early on D1, but you ought to at least acknowledge it for what it is. Pine not only does not do that, but he doubles down on it after Old Man makes his IC claim, switching over to vote me like I was his next most clear suspect.

He first refuses to elaborate any more on the vote even after being requested to do so. And then, most recently, simply reposted his original point and said that he still "stands by" it. He seemingly added that he wanted to see how I would react to it, and I've just continued to post the same way.

This has been Pine. And there's still nothing here that comes across as Townie to me. And that in and of itself is somewhat telling.

[petroleumjelly]

Rare post from work, as I do not expect to be able to post tonight.

1.)

Firebringer, please explain why Eddie Cane is Town, and why you are going through with this “three guesses” for Eddie Cane to guess why. Eddie Cane has already said he has “no more guesses” (see Post #249).

2.)

Firebringer, please answer why you are currently voting for Morality when chamber (who Morality replaced) was a Townread of yours to the point you offered to ‘townblock’ with him.

3.)

roflcopter, please answer my earlier question:

1.

what if old man is some kind of powerful scum role that they just really need to have alive on night one?

Why bring this up without offering your opinion (or a solution)?

4.)

roflcopter, why are you voting for hitogoroshi? Does this tie back to your Axelrod/hitogoroshi pairing, or something else?

5.)

MagnaofIllusion, how often to you “delegate” your reads to other players (specifically, delegating your Firebringer read to Pine)? Would you agree with the characterization that this was partially a move so that you did not have to continue a back-and-forth with Firebringer?

[Korts]

Morality has not picked up his prod, and will be replaced.

MagnaofIllusion and Old Man have been prodded.

[Axelrod]

KMD

My issues with KMD can maybe be boiled down to three (3) things:

1) "Active" lurking. Of the kind where you pop in every so often to make a post that doesn't say a whole lot, or asks a random question, or makes an excuse for why you haven't been posting.

2) His vote for Eddie. Initially unexplained, 4th on the wagon. Eddie

had not even made a post in the game yet

. Now, reasonable minds can disagree, and some might argue that it's even good strategy to run someone up really fast for no reason at all, but IF that's your rationale, you had best follow through and/or do something to show that this was what you were doing. KMD did not. In fact, Eddie posted soon afterwards and proceeded to get two more very quick votes. KMD's response - in as much as there was a response, was to say, in #63:

If Eddie's vote on me was a joke, I don't get it.

That's after the 6th vote has been placed on Eddie. So, if I'm reading that, my feeling is that this is KMD expressing support for this wagon. Not that it was random RVS, not that he was "reaction testing", but that he's got a reason to be here, and he's staying here. The vote sticks until #192.

3) His Wagon analysis/explanation of #192. I already mentioned this previously, but in this post KMD goes through the wagon on Eddie, looking at the votes and saying what he likes and doesn't, and completely ignores his own vote. KMD responded to this criticism here:

Yeah, I'm not gonna analyze my own vote. I already know I'm town so what would I be trying to gain by trying to figure out my own thought process?

Um, dude, if you are doing a wagon analysis, you have to acknowledge your own vote on it, if only because YOUR vote could/should have an effect on the other voters, and this is the kind of thing you are supposed to be looking to see. Also, and not incidentally, it's not about you trying to figure out your own thoughts (duh), it's about you EXPLAINING your thought process to us. So we can, you know, figure out if you're Town or not. Skipping completely over your own vote/thought process does not allow us to do that.

So what was his thought process? He finally answers that here:

I didn't have a better reason to vote anyone than the one Magna gave on Eddie and figured a wagon could be useful anyway. At the time, no, more votes on the person I was voting didn't bother me. I still wanted to see the wagon build so maybe we could get something out of it.

Which is ? to me. He's not saying he had any actual suspicion of Eddie at all (unless he is saying that Magna's joke vote was an actual reason) but he left his vote there until #192 (which was well after the wagon went away, and anything that he might have "gotten" from it was done.) I also agree with Eddie's point, to some extant, that if KMD was actually familiar with Eddie as a player, and actually had respect for Eddie as a player, and he was Townie, seems like he might have said something about this completely unfounded wagon that was building. I mean,

later

he makes this "defense" of Eddie to MoI:

Huh? Stubbornness like that usually comes from town. Why wouldn't scum-Eddie just do what everyone is asking to get people off his back?

But that was in #310. Where was this defense when the wagon/votes were happening?

Some of the other stuff in #192 is okay. I like that he's addressing a bunch of topics of conversation, and some of his responses seem reasonable enough. But it's such a big dump post, immediately followed by a week of more lurking, it's the kind of thing I can see a scum doing, working themselves up to "say something" because they know they have to, and then hoping it's enough to make people leave them alone.

[Eddie Cane]

Let's let KMD finish catching up Axel.

Also, Morality flaking is probably scum :/

[Morality]

I’m right here, if I can’t get on tonight, I’ll replace.

Also, @Eddie - when has me flaking EVER been scum indicative?

[Eddie Cane]

not in general. here.