Mini #564 - Mafia in Crubtown - Game Over

[Cephrir]

Guess again. PP is *voting* darkdude. Do you have any other empty accusations to toss out?

Oh, give m a freaking break. She's been attacking me ovr it madly, and she might as well be voting me as she is clearly more sspicious of me than dd.

Isn't that what she's doing? I dunno, just saying.

She has been since I said that, yeah...

@PinkPuppy and Cephrir: Perhaps Cephrir/you (as the case may be) thought zeddicus would have a chance to respond before the replacement and the vote would put pressure? That's only thing that could really make sense.

Sort of. It was definitely written with the intent that zeddicus respond to it, not a replacement; like I said, I just wasn't thinking about it. When you're attacking someone, you don't think that they might be replaced soon. You just don't. If it had occured to me, I'm sure I would have said the same stuff anyway, only with an addendum and without a vote.

[Pink Puppy]

QuantumFruit --

I realize Cephrir (and you) seem to have a different playstyle. A much more verbose, indirect style. I am trying to allow for that because I don't want to just suspect anyone who plays differently from me. BUT, the reason I do suspect it is because I think it can easily be manipulative. I like to be direct and concise, and I suspect people who aren't direct and concise, of hiding something. Not always, but it is something I watch out for. Dancing around the issue, answering it from the side, arguing about meanings of words... I am not a fan, and it makes me suspicious.

I am, however, not relying solely on style.

My point about Cephrir being aggressive D1 and then not on D2... yes, I do see a change in playstyle like that as scummy. I don't understand the reason for it. I THINK its because scum don't want too much pressure on them for the whole game -- eventually they'll get lynched for it. That may be just my opinion. Cephrir says he's aggressive D1 to get reactions, but not after. Actually, that would be an interesting thing to meta. I think that is a good idea. If I read games where he is aggressive D1 and not afterwards, then I would concede that he just plays that way, and it's not scummy. I will check on that.

I'm still happy voting DD. He's so apathetic. He defends himself by saying "Oh that comment wasn't meant to be helpful" and "I've just been sitting back and watching." That is a scum attitude.

[Pink Puppy]

Guess again. PP is *voting* darkdude. Do you have any other empty accusations to toss out?

Oh, give m a freaking break. She's been attacking me ovr it madly, and she might as well be voting me as she is clearly more sspicious of me than dd.

I am clearly having to defend myself multiple times for every little thing I say about you, that is why I have to keep posting about you. You are perpetuating this cycle.

One of the reasons I am not voting you is because I do realize we have very different styles, and some of it may be lost in translation.

So give me a freaking break.

[Cephrir]

My point about Cephrir being aggressive D1 and then not on D2... yes, I do see a change in playstyle like that as scummy. I don't understand the reason for it. I THINK its because scum don't want too much pressure on them for the whole game -- eventually they'll get lynched for it. That may be just my opinion. Cephrir says he's aggressive D1 to get reactions, but not after. Actually, that would be an interesting thing to meta. I think that is a good idea. If I read games where he is aggressive D1 and not afterwards, then I would concede that he just plays that way, and it's not scummy. I will check on that.

That's probably not going to help. I didn't say it was something I usually do; you'll find that I am usually passive on D1 and for the whole game, but (I think) my play has been improving lately. In Mafia 69 (noXkill) I was aggressive D2 and D3 (I think), so if you want to see me playing aggressively that might help. But it's not a usual tactic of mine.

I am clearly having to defend myself multiple times for every little thing I say about you, that is why I have to keep posting about you. You are perpetuating this cycle.

One of the reasons I am not voting you is because I do realize we have very different styles, and some of it may be lost in translation.

So give me a freaking break.

That's an exaggeration. Back-and-forth is perfectly normal, and you can't expect to say things about me, have me defend myself, and then all but pretend I didn't. I find it frustrating when, after I defend myself, you continue to think I'm scum even though I have (as far as I can tell) adequately responded to the points hyou've made.

[darkdude]

Why are you suspicious of me, darkdude? You mentioned stuff, but it was kind of vague.

Have you forgotten already? Your previous suspicious behaviour such as protecting Talitha and making nonsensical statements like "you're being mean to her" is what makes you still suspicious in my opinion.

@ VoD

Since QF was inactive lately my suspicions didn't change much about her. She seems most suspicious right now because I personally don't think Cephrir is very suspicious. Most accusations against him are due to his general behaviour, which I don't find scummy.

[Crub]

Fourteenth Vote Count of Day 2

darkdude (2):

Talitha, Pink Puppy

QuantumFruit (1):

darkdude

vikingfan (1):

Akonas

Cephrir (1):

EmpTyger

Akonas (1):

Cephrir

Not Voting (4):

thevampireofdusseldorf, QuantumFruit, windkirby, vikingfan

With 10 alive it takes 6 to lynch.

[vikingfan]

Apologies for being out-I've been busy but am back now. I agree with PP that dramatic changes like that is scummy behavior. It's one thing to change one's mind (with sound logic to back it up), it's another thing entirely to change one's playstyle. But I'm not sure altogether that Cephrir's play matches her accusation to the depth that she claims, so I'm not prepared to vote him.

That being said, I'm still entirely happy with darkdude and in fact will vote him, for all the reasons already mentioned, both by myself and others. Hanging back, making lame excuses, and so forth.

vote darkdude

[Cephrir]

Mod- I am voting for Akonas.

Sorry That's twice with you!

[EmpTyger]

To be perfectly honest, right now I don’t feel like doing hypotheticals multiple steps deep. I don’t have anything I’m close to certain about, and there’s a lot more possibilities than impossibilities at this point. But, some thoughts:

Temporarily assuming Cephrir is one of a 3 member mafia:
The biggest red arrow points to Akonas. The way he’s *said* he’s highly suspicious of Akonas, while not doing anything substantial against him, seems classic. From there, no one person jumps out significantly as a third, but there are several who could fit. Maybe VoD or Talitha. darkdude- honestly, I’m skeptical of him being with Cephrir/Akonas, which is the primary reason I’m hesitating against him right now. It’s by no means impossible- Cephrir was instrumental in extricating darkdude earlier today. But, there are, to me, better, I think.

Temporarily assuming that Cephrir is mafia, but Akonas is innocent:
darkdude jumps a lot higher in suspicion. I don’t see PP being with Cephrir in any case. I’m going back and forth on Cephrir/QF.


I think I want to consider separately what happened to the bandwagon against VoD at the start of the day. In retrospect, that looks interesting.

[Talitha]

Emp - Can you explain your skepticism about darkdude being mafia with Cephrir?

(Check in post here.. back in a few hours).

[QuantumFruit]

@darkdude:

Have you forgotten already? Your previous suspicious behaviour such as protecting Talitha and making nonsensical statements like "you're being mean to her" is what makes you still suspicious in my opinion.

@ VoD

Since QF was inactive lately my suspicions didn't change much about her. She seems most suspicious right now because I personally don't think Cephrir is very suspicious. Most accusations against him are due to his general behaviour, which I don't find scummy.

Really?? The intonation of that is lost in translation. Anyway. This again - I was being protective of Talitha because you were being inconsiderate of the fact that she has three kids and a job and cannot be completely attentive to the game 100% of the time. Besides, that's not what I'm asking. I'm asking why is that act itself suspicious: being protective of Talitha?

Also, was the implication of your last statement that I'm suspicious of Cephrir which makes me suspicious? Because really, I'm not particularly suspicious of him. There are things to look into, which I'm doing - but suspicious is not the right term. On the other hand, if you're saying that you don't find Cephrir suspicious but you should be getting on someone's case - well, that's a stupid reason. If there's any other interpretation I could glean from that that I didn't, please explain.

[Cephrir]

I don’t have anything I’m close to certain about

darkdude- honestly, I’m skeptical of him being with Cephrir/Akonas, which is the primary reason I’m hesitating against him right now.

If you're not certain about anything, why would you not be suspicious of dd because you don't think he's scum with me? Basing arguments on pairings when no scum are dead is not helpful.

You're also wrong, but I may as well give up on convincing you on that, apparently, since you and PP don't seem to feel like listening to reason.

[darkdude]

@ QF

The original case was that you said I was "being mean" when there was no such action done by me against talitha. Sounded like just a good excuse to try to get me off her case.

And no, the last part of my last post means that I'm suspicious of you because the town's main suspect Cephrir (and myself, but as said previously of course suspecting myself would be nonsensical) doesn't seem scummy to me. That leaves only you. I did not imply any association between you two.

[Cephrir]

I think you're stuck on that because it was your idea, if you're town. There are so many better cases out there. Honestly, I'd think better of your alignment if you voted for me right now, because at least there is a case, even if it's awful. And there's also Akonas, vikingfan, PP and zeddicus whom cases have been made on. You're voting QF because of 1 contradictory comment, and because she might be scum with Talitha (basing anything on partnerships while both are still alive is useless), based on said 1 comment. It's okay to agree with someone, you know.

Starting to think he may be trying to look good by sticking to his guns, but it'll take a lot to make me vote darkdude today.

[darkdude]

because at least there is a case, even if it's awful

Why would I go for a case which is worse in my eyes than the one I already have?

Starting to think he may be trying to look good by sticking to his guns, but it'll take a lot to make me vote darkdude today

Contradiction again? Are you saying you WILL or WILL NOT vote for me?

[Cephrir]

Why would I go for a case which is worse in my eyes than the one I already have?

I'd think you'd be able to find one you agree with, since several of them make sense.

Contradiction again? Are you saying you WILL or WILL NOT vote for me?

I'd prefer not to, but you get worse with every post.

[Talitha]

darkdude: Why are you suspicious of QF for "trying to get (you) off (my) case"? Explain to me what you think she gets out of it if she's scum.

Emp: I just read your post 633 again. Can you explain why you think that Darkdude could be mafia with Cephrir, but not with Cephrir & Akonas?
Oh - nevermind, I think I see it now.

My opinion is that darkdude is scum... but IF he turns out to be innocent I'll be looking closely at Akonas. So I think I get where Emp is coming from.

[darkdude]

I'd prefer not to, but you get worse with every post.

So if you want to vote for me why do you say that "it will take a lot" for you to do so?

Anyways regarding your suggestion, I can change my suspicions to you, which I already explained is not what seems best to me at the moment, to Akonas or PP, who also don't seem more scummy than QF, or zeddicus-tyger, which I'm not sure what to make of right now due to the whole replacement thing. I am simply more confident that QF is scum than anything else.

Explain to me what you think she gets out of it if she's scum.

Obviously you would be her scum buddy in that case...

[Talitha]

Obviously you would be her scum buddy in that case...

Then why haven't you mentioned me at all? Surely, in order for QF to be suspicious for defending me, you should have some reason for suspecting

me

in the first place. And as far as I can see, you don't.

[vikingfan]

I'd prefer not to, but you get worse with every post.

So if you want to vote for me why do you say that "it will take a lot" for you to do so?

Anyways regarding your suggestion, I can change my suspicions to you, which I already explained is not what seems best to me at the moment, to Akonas or PP, who also don't seem more scummy than QF, or zeddicus-tyger, which I'm not sure what to make of right now due to the whole replacement thing. I am simply more confident that QF is scum than anything else.

Explain to me what you think she gets out of it if she's scum.

Obviously you would be her scum buddy in that case...

Outline your case against QF from beginning to end, please. As far as I see, you haven't done it yet.

[thevampireofdusseldorf]

I knew there was something that dd mentioned earlier about akonas that I found interesting at the time and I have gone back and will repeat it here for all to view.

Post 348 (when dd was the top wagonee) after the helpful post by akonas.

It must be the thought of self defense overwhelming my other thoughts, because I fail to see other suspicious people. So sorry can't help town there, until my own mess is cleared. One detail I do see though - Akona's words sound less likely to come from scum than the others.

I inquired about this statement as dd was claiming not having any leads on anyone.

And lastly you say about Akonas you think he is not very scummy at all compared to others so you obviously think of some "others" as scum or using scummy words, would you let me know if this is sort of what you ment?

And the response

This is because he's trying to help me play good as town, which is obviously a very pro town thing to do. But this is not subject to as much WIFOM as other obvious pro town actions as I'm in a huge spiral down to the lynching stage already, so a regular scum could have just left me to die without seeming suspicious in any way.

So we have akonas helping dd when he looks the most likely to be lynched and than dd saying that what akonas did by helping him was very pro town.
A couple of things I find wierd about this is that it is certainly not a pro town thing to do if either of them is scum. But dd seems to view it as both of them being town. Then dds logic goes on to say that because if akonas was scum he could have let dd hang himself (as it were). If akonas was scum this was a perfect oppertunity to pick up dd (if town) as a pet.
I am still of the belief that this was dd playing into akonas hands and him (akonas) picking up a pet town (dd). There is still a slight possibility in my mind of them being scum partners but I am more convinced of akonas as scum than dd.
After my pestering of akonas about his views on dd he has rather quickly changed his tune to yeah "dd is most likely scum" and is happy to support a wagon on him. This seems to me to be rather too quick and briefly explained a change from so much typed indecision.

[Cephrir]

So if you want to vote for me why do you say that "it will take a lot" for you to do so?

What part of "not" are you not understanding here?

Outline your case against QF from beginning to end, please. As far as I see, you haven't done it yet.

He made a "case" on page 18; I haven't seen anything more to it than that, and it's pretty lame. dd, is there anything else?

[darkdude]

As far as I see, you haven't done it yet.

I'm pretty sure I did already. But anyways:

Talitha made some weird post restating the same thing in three consecutive posts
I point out weird behaviour (weird, not necessarily scummy)
QF says I was being mean

Which of course made no sense at all. When I talked about it she was still under the impression that I was being mean and telling talitha to "drop everything and play mafia".

I assumed everyone remembered so I didn't rewrite this in the last posts.

Then why haven't you mentioned me at all?

I did, but that was prior to this case. You were inactive and only popped up when people suggested that you were lurking. Not as scummy as QF, so I put her as my main suspect.

[Akonas]

After my pestering of akonas about his views on dd he has rather quickly changed his tune to yeah "dd is most likely scum" and is happy to support a wagon on him. This seems to me to be rather too quick and briefly explained a change from so much typed indecision.

A quick change... I simply put off judgment for a little bit so that, incase he was town, we wouldn't lynch him right away. Kind of "wait a second, guys." I didn't want another townie to get lynched real quick because he didn't know how to defend himself and was just dicking around. However, at this point, darkdude has had a chance to defend himself, and he hasn't redeemed himself. It's kind of like how you don't keep saying "give peace a chance" when they're invading your homeland.

---

You're also wrong, but I may as well give up on convincing you on that, apparently, since you and PP don't seem to feel like listening to reason.

First of all, reason often is less useful than gut feelings. This isn't a logic game (although logic comes into play quite often).
Second, justify yourself.

---

Since QF was inactive lately my suspicions didn't change much about her. She seems most suspicious right now because I personally don't think Cephrir is very suspicious. Most accusations against him are due to his general behaviour, which I don't find scummy.

Who else do you find suspicious? Why don't you think Cephrir is suspicious?

Oh, and vikingfan didn't respond to my criticism of him.

[EmpTyger]

Talitha:

<snip>
Emp: I just read your post 633 again. Can you explain why you think that Darkdude could be mafia with Cephrir, but not with Cephrir & Akonas?
Oh - nevermind, I think I see it now.

My opinion is that darkdude is scum... but IF he turns out to be innocent I'll be looking closely at Akonas. So I think I get where Emp is coming from.

Yes- it’s the specific combination of Cephrir/Akonas/darkdude that just doesn’t seem to work. Look at the last 3 votecounts, look at the votes. *Everyone* else has been consistently voting for 1 of those 3. *Someone* should be getting desperate. Akonas in particular I can’t imagine would be distancing himself from *both* of his comafia’s wagons when there isn’t any other third option. The thing VoD picked up on in [645] is interesting in this light also. (This is incidentally also why I wanted to take a closer look at the VoD wagon, and I suppose also the zeddicus lurkerwagon. Need more data.)

So I could accept either Cephrir/Akonas or Cephrir/darkdude, but I have a hard time with borh. Maybe Occam’s Razor, and they’re just circling the drain- but I’ll wait until 2/3 are confirmed before further speculating that all 3 are mafia. For now, though, three’s no reason to guess about Akonas and darkdude when I feel most confident about Cephrir.

(If Cephrir isn’t being lynched today, then darkdude, being second-most suspicious independently of Cephrir, is my next target. But I’m honestly increasingly having second thoughts about him. And I am not ready to give up on Cephrir yet.)

---

Cephrir:

I don’t have anything I’m close to certain about

darkdude- honestly, I’m skeptical of him being with Cephrir/Akonas, which is the primary reason I’m hesitating against him right now.

If you're not certain about anything, why would you not be suspicious of dd because you don't think he's scum with me? Basing arguments on pairings when no scum are dead is not helpful.

You're also wrong, but I may as well give up on convincing you on that, apparently, since you and PP don't seem to feel like listening to reason.

You might understand me better if you don’t take my phrases out of context. VoD asked me for possibilities regarding pairings, so I gave him some. Which I prefaced by saying:

To be perfectly honest, right now I don’t feel like doing hypotheticals multiple steps deep. I don’t have anything I’m close to certain about, and there’s a lot more possibilities than impossibilities at this point. But, some thoughts:

Temporarily assuming<snip>

I’m not voting based on pairings- you’re my top suspect independently. I wouldn’t vote darkdude under the assumption that you are guilty and Akonas innocent any more than I would vote Akonas under the assumption that you are guilty and darkdude innocent.

I *am* suspicious of darkdude, independently of you. But I’m more suspicious of *you*. So I’m starting there.

---

darkdude:
I think you’re correct that QF kind of overreacted to your thing on Talitha- but I think you’re more overreacting to her overreaction. However…

---

QF:
…taking a closer look at you, now. You don’t seem to be particularly suspicious of anyone other than darkdude, yet you’re not voting him. Is there anyone else? If not, why are you refraining from voting?