Micro 382 - CREDIMVS PAVONI DEORVM (Game Over!)

[Asher Kendrell]

VOTE: Wolfy
Can't trust a wolf.

[Asher Kendrell]

I am actually out of ketchup. I'm not actually sad, I'm feeling pretty good. Yes I am. I think Wolfy is quick to call others scummy, but incredibly defensive on his own.

[Asher Kendrell]

AsherKendrell

If you would, please get more active, Asher. I want to better understand why exactly you voted for Wolfy, why you cast doubt on him, and why you have barely been playing. You've been given the same time as everyone else, and I really feel you can step it up and play a bit better. Some have posted quite a bit, so I think you can pull your fair share of the load, too. Until you give me something I can work with, I'm going to

Finger of Suspicion: AsherKendrell

. Sorry.

Hi Wake88. I don't think we've played together before.

Why I voted for Wolfy:

Answer the question.
Question dodging = scum

and

And he's still not answering my question = scum

So Wolfy felt that avoiding questions was a scummy move, quick to call others out on it, yet refused to answer and provide a reads list when asked and then only ended up basically repeating his list from 141. He refused to help the town by providing an up-to-date reads list and dodged bbt's and scripten's constant requests for hours. He said that not answering questions is scummy, yet did so himself. By his own accounts, he was scum or just a hostile townie.

So if I change and vote for someone else will I become town too?
hyperbole.
crap.

Crap, yet he had made 5 separate votes. Either he knows it looks scummy, or he's trying to look town without saying it.

In any case, he wasn't beneficial for the town and made himself a liability.

Why I've barely been playing:

This one is unconnected to the game; I had a job for the summer that ended on Friday, so I'll be much more available now. Although I actually haven't had as much time as everybody else, because I subbed in for Clusk92 around post 140, and have only been playing since then.

[Asher Kendrell]

I'll strive to not make this game a terrible experience for you. Please don't take offense if I ask you questions civilly.

If you're an alt account, would you feel comfortable sharing that? The reason I ask is to then draw parallels on your meta based on your other account(s). If not I understand, and will respect that.

I will agree with Wolfy that question-dodging is... suspicious. I intensely dislike it when people do this, and will basically follow them to the ends of the Earth to extract that vital information. Does it mean the play is Scum? No. I've had the misfortune of dealing with Town players who not only refused to answer simple questions, but have a terrible attitude about it, too. If I lynch a Townie because of scummy bad behavior, I'll still sleep well at night. Him not providing a Reads List, and refusing to... that too is scummy. If you are Town you should at least make an effort to contribute and engage in the conversation. I can certainly understand players being busy, too. Hostility is anti-Town, and Scum will jump on that for sure. I have no doubt there's at least one member of Scum on Wolfy's wagon.

He should have gone about his business differently. He still has time to grow and mature. As for being busy, real-life comes first. If you're bogged down please don't be shy about using the V/LA convenience.

That's very kind of you. I'm actually not an alt account. My only games are the marathon you brought up and a newbie game that just started. From now on, I'll make sure to use the V/LA if necessary.

I think I'm with you on the wagon business. 5 on the wagon, 3 off (not counting wolfy), the odds would suggest that at least one Scum is there. Possibly two, but that sounds more unlikely to me.

[Asher Kendrell]

Asher, please share your thoughts on Vettrock.

Vettrock is kind of a mystery to me. He hasn't done anything outwardly scummy, but not a lot of pro-town moves either. He seems to be mostly sitting on the fence to me.

At least we've had a few more players posting now. So, let's try this again.

Vettrock:

If you were scum, who would you target for a night kill assuming the day ended right now with a no lynch?

If the Day ended right now and I was scum it is hard to say who I would nightkill. I think we need a bit more information, as at this point I'd just have to pick a random person. A nightkill should be the person most believed to be town, or a person that is particularly threatening to you. The problem with the second option, is it points the finger at you unless they also fall under the first catagory. As there isn't anyone who is generally accepted as town at this point, I'd have to go random.

Vettrock doesn't really give an answer, only that his hypothetical night kill would have to be random or the most believed to be town. On the one hand, vettrock's the only player who hasn't been voted against yet, and his only vote was on shaded, who posted basically nothing before being replaced by you. He seemed pretty convinced that wolfy wasn't scum, and that lynching him was anti-town. To me it seems like vettrock has been skirting on the edge rather than taking a stance. His opinions on wolfy didn't really matter because his vote wasn't needed to lynch.

I'm not feeling comfortable with vettrock. If he was convinced about wolfy's innocence, he could have fought harder. If he thought he was scummy, he could have stated his intent to hammer as well. It seems convenient that he could slip past day 1 with no suspicion and avoided the wagon.

[Asher Kendrell]

vettrock

Vettrock's another player I haven't had the pleasure of playing with before. In light of Wolfy being innocent, it doesn't look like you ever placed suspicion on him. I did notice your exchange with Scripten, in which in 68 he asks you who you'd NK as Scum if there were no lynch. You respond in 116 by saying you wouldn't know, and that you'd need more information, and that you'd pick a random target. This bit leaves me wondering, because if you were Scum, and seeing how this isn't multiball, you'd already know who is Scum and who is Town. From your hypothetical standpoint there would be no "believing who is most likely to be Town." You say you'd be left with two options:

1)

A nightkill should be the person most believed to be town.

Now, I could be misunderstanding you here. Do you mean the person most believed to be Town... in the eyes of the players? If that is what you meant to say, then that changes things and I would agree with it.

2)

A nightkill should be a person that is particularly threatening to you.

This would make the most sense to me, so long as you make sure it doesn't come back to bite you. We likely have differences of opinion in how to play the game. If you know someone is Town, and a particularly strong Town voice at that, you'd want to kill that person earlier rather than later. There is merit to randomly killing a Townie, too, in that there's less likelihood of the death being tied back to you. It's also situational, as you mentioned in the last sentence of that post.

I'd agree with the assessment of 1, assuming he meant in the eyes of the players. 2, however, gets a bit more complicated. In post 38, vettrock talked about having played with clusk and wolfy before. I replaced clusk, so the only one he's played with before is wolfy. I don't know if wolfy's town play is usually strong, but he is the only player that vettrock seems to have had first hand experience with. Wolfy got lynched though, so the night kill would have to be, by his standards, random or the most believed to be town. Mr_ree only talked about vettrock once, in which he called him town (203). Other than that, there's no connection between mr_ree and vettrock. That could be either that vettrock is unrelated to the night kill or that it was just a random townie kill.

If you would, please shed some light on this. Typing this up, I'm better understanding the reason behind your posts, but would still like to hear your clarification on this, please. Also, do you think you'd allow a No-Lynch to go through on any of the Days if you were Scum? If so, and you're Town, then I think you would fight to ensure that doesn't happen, since we have an odd-numbered playerbase.

Vettrock, how are you feeling about TierShift's alignment?

Also, would you elaborate on what exactly you meant by Scripten "seeming to be bending stuff a lot more," please? I think when any person takes things out of context, or bends them out of context, that's inherently suspicious and shouldn't be done by members of Town. I think Scripten is capable of defending his position without bending things, if indeed that's what he is doing. Why did you vote for my slot, and leave it there? If Scripten was bending things out of context as you imply, or that calling for a hammer at that point was scummy in your book, why did you not put a vote towards either of those players? This includes your mention of you thinking BBT was scummy for saying he considered Wolfy "certain scum."

Vettrock did say that he was against a no lynch in 119, but he was also against the lynch on wolfy, so it sounds more like he would be okay with a no lynch as long as it happens slow rather than immediately. I already talked about voting for shaded and leaving it there; to me it seems like he just wanted to avoid the wagon without being called out by an active player.

"Maybe I don't have the Uber skills of all of you, but knowing with "certainty" that someone will flip scum is something that only scum can say."

The first part of this sentence feels fake to me. A bit. As for the second part, you say it's something only Scum can say. So... why did you do nothing against that person? If that was something only Scum would say, where was your vote to put action behind your words? If you think something done can only be done by Scum, you cast a vote against the person doing that Scummy action. Instead you did not, which troubles me, because it doesn't make your words ring true, because if you believed what you said your actions would follow suit.

"While I'm not for dragging things out unnecessarily, lynching at this point is anti-town."

At what point would you be for lynching? A ballpark estimate would be helpful here.

That last post was on August 29th, at 8:03am. Mr. Ree hammered at 2:55pm that same day. You've not posted since. You had around seven hours to post. It's understandable if you were busy with real-life. If you weren't, and since you viewed Wolfy's wagon as incredibly anti-Town, maybe you could have, if Town, found time to post one or two more posts voicing your disapproval of that wagon?

This is troubling for me because he could have done more to try and stop the lynch wagon but instead took a more "No. Don't." approach instead of being actively against it. Not really any actions he did back up trying to stop the lynch. Also, lynching is anti-town, but so is not lynching? It seems like more fence sitting to me, rather than picking a side and doing something about it.

Other than that, I don't know enough about meta to try and extrapolate his playstyle. I think I covered everything Wake88, but it's always possible I missed something.

[Asher Kendrell]

As for Asher, I've already said i found his 'RVS' vote scummy and I think that was where I was looking for a wagon today. But I like his 253 and I'm yet to decide if newbscum or newbtown.

Asher, I'm glad to see you're going to be more active. I asked for your reads. Can you provide them?
With all this stuff you're saying about vettrock, what is your read on him? Does 'uncomfortable with' mean scum to you?

I'm willing to provide reads, but I'd prefer to wait until vettrock comments on what's been said today. If he doesn't show up, I can still make a list.

I'm leaning towards a scum read on vettrock, but I'm not confidant until he replies.

[Asher Kendrell]

In response to wake88 asking for opinions on the tiershift post

Spoiler:

Your vote on Mr. Ree in (6) makes me wonder why it was cast. It looks like an OMGUS, which is inherently anti-Town, or so the majority says. It didn't escape me how you voted for Ree in (6), and then asked BBT in (9) if he thought Ree's vote was random. If you don't think Ree's vote was random, then you should be able to explain why you thought otherwise. Though your questions in (9) pangs of Townish curiosity, your (6) leaves me without complete understanding.

To me, tiershift's vote looks as random as the rest of them, with his comment being a small jab at mr_ree. I think mr_ree's vote was random, but it looks like tier/bbt/scripten were just trying to get a discussion started. Neither post seems scummy or town to me.

(13) is difficult to weigh. Questions are good for illumination and discussion. You may not feel his questions needed to be answered, but the content derived from the discussion revolving said questions can prove fruitful. In fact part of our discussion involves them even now.

The questions were very generic, but tier or bbt could have at least tried to answer them. On the other hand, discussion did get started so the questions achieved their goal.

(15) and (16) leave me wondering why you made them. There should have been a reason, yet I'm not seeing it. Your explanation would be appreciated. Your (18) rings Townish, yet it's generic and safe, in my humble opinion. It does not look like Ree was the best wagon, per your (21). I would like some answers from you on this. The grammatical errors in (24) probably mean nothing. It also doesn't seem you are using the function which stops and allows you to preview/edit your post when someone's posted before you've finished typing. That, too, likely means nothing, although knowing these subtleties isn't inherently detrimental. Scum doesn't have Daystart, so in (24) it can't be said that you and BBT were Scum partners who spoke privately before the Day started, which could have explained you two thinking the same thing around the same time. I'm not certain what to think of (24). Same with (25).

Most of these posts seem to be for shits and giggles, rather than for discussion. Nothing really to be gained here.

Content is and continues to be generated because those questions were put forth and discussed (30). Again it pangs Townish when you ask BBT for the scum motivation in pushing that issue. You can never tell, apropos (32). He could be an alt. (34) and (40) begets indifference. For the third time, TierShift says something that reads Townish in (42). At this point I am Townreading him a little.

I think I'd agree with the slight town read. 42 seems to be an attempt to also get vettrock more involved with the conversation, which doesn't really happen.

TierShift, maybe you should not have acted so hastily when you cast your vote for Vettrock in (46) for, as you call it, unnecessary prolongation of RVS. Him posting a supposedly RVS vote in (38) isn't grounds for a serious vote, especially when I've played in games when the person's first post, a random vote, was after the #100 mark. Let's discuss this further, because this latest action is stirring up doubt in your alignment.

You have played in games with random votess past post #100, I have not, and I can't really speak for anyone else here. Vettrock's vote to me seems less random, more like he's trying to create a conflict/throw a wrench in the works. Still early enough in the game that I don't think either of their votes means much in terms of alignment.

Please share what (53) is regarding. An elaboration on (55) would help, because it can be difficult understanding what you're meaning at times. I mean no disrespect by that. I notice in (65) that you didn't vote Josh_B near the timeframe when he voted for Vettrock and then for Scripten. Josh's (61) was obviously a random vote, yet your accusation of him prolonging RVS unnecessarily doesn't materialize. At that point your vote is still on Vettrock, and you do indeed have time to change it from him to Josh, since by your logic when it comes to the unnecessary prolongation of RVS, #61 must be a worse offense than #38.

53 seems to be in regards to 51, but that's just a guess. I can't see the point of 55, so that confuses me as well. 65 seems to be questioning what about the push was scummy? Given that ~5 hours happen between josh's rvs and tier commenting, it looks like he skipped over 61 for 63 because 63 was an actual vote. Josh replaced the rvs rather quickly, whereas vettrock never changed his vote.

If you would, I'd like to know what your view is on Scumtells, per your (78). In your words overreaction and counterpushing aren't Scumtells. I wonder if you think hypocrisy is.

I'd disagree with tiershift here. While I understand that overreaction and counterpushing don't necessarily point out scum, as they are reactions of anyone who feels they are being targeted or unfairly treated, I think they can also be used by scum to appear more townish. I can't speak for his view on hypocrisy.

I think I got everything.

[Asher Kendrell]

I'll be blunt, I feel like Josh is digging himself into a hole here. I'm with scripten and bbt. I'm not liking how vettrock only comes in to defend him.

VOTE: Josh_B

[Asher Kendrell]

Why do you think you are in confbias? How does that affect your read on scripten?

1. I spent all of DP1 arguing with him about his scuminess. 2.

Are you suggesting scripten/tiershift are tunneling, or are you referring to yourself tunneling on scripten? I'd just like a little bit more clarification.

[Asher Kendrell]

My opinions/questions for josh

Spoiler:

I'll be blunt, I feel like Josh is digging himself into a hole here. I'm with scripten and bbt. I'm not liking how vettrock only comes in to defend him.

VOTE: Josh_B

Yo I asked for a readslist. Is josh scummier than vettrock?

Sorry, missed this one. I think they're both looking fairly scummy right now, but it looks to me like josh is heading down the same anti-town path as wolfy. Could just be a bad play for town, or I'm thinking cornered scum.

It's a loaded question, with a false dichotomy. I had

NO READ

on wolfy.
I attempted to engage him, 12 posts later he was at l-1 with the intent to hammer already stated. He was doing whatever the fuck it was that he was doing, and it really didn't matter to me anymore. End of story. I've said this a lot of times. I don't know why you keep asking me, or what kind of answer you are trying to get out of me, but that's it. How long do you plan on tunneling this?

End of story just sounds like a cop out. It forces an end to questions and attempts to end all discussion. I can't see a way that benefits the town. It's just backtracking on his part. Also, "how long do you plan on tunneling this?

VOTE: vettrok


He's scum until he can come up with a good reason why he isn't scum. unless he's scum and if he is, he should admit to it now, because I'm probably going to be all tunnely on this the whole game for reasons I can't talk about.

Yet you drop vettrock 17 minutes later then

tunnel on scripten for the rest of the game?

Excluding a vote on me which you've now replaced, you've been tunneling on scripten and then call out bbt for tunneling?

Good evening TierShift.
If you would, I'd like to know what your view is on Scumtells, per your (78). In your words overreaction and counterpushing aren't Scumtells. I wonder if you think hypocrisy is.

Josh, do you feel that hypocrisy is a scumtell?

Vettrock:

My opinion on vettrock remains fairly unchanged. I stick with what I said in 260 and 364 about vettrock. He seems to only come out of the woodwork to defend josh. Could be just a time related thing, or some buddying. If I had to pick two, it would be them.

Scripten & BBT:

I've got a moderate town read on these two, especially because they're focused on generating discussion and scumhunting. Then again, could be a scum pair, never know. But I would be much more surprised to find them as scum versus josh/vettrock.

Tiershift:

: I already commented on wake88's post about you, and I don't feel like much has changed since then. You focus on readslists which suggests to me that you're trying to gauge everyone's opinions rather than just focusing on your own. Since this generates a lot of discussion, it leads me to a moderate town read, but I'd be hesitant to give a full town read.

Wake88:

He joined guns blazing, reigniting the discussion. The questions for mr_ree suggest to me that he wasn't expecting the night kill, or that he knew it was coming and wanted to look townier. Either way, he's focused so much on digging for evidence and discussion that to me, he's either clear town or next level scum because he hasn't really been accused by anyone. I'd say he's my strongest town vote.

---

I agree with not pulling the hammer yet, because I want to know what josh has left to offer, and if he can make himself a strong enough case of why he shouldn't be lynched. In any case, we should hear what he has to say before we do anything else.

[Asher Kendrell]

Damn, nicely done on the italics. So now we wait for a full reads list and see if it's followed by a self-hammer?

[Asher Kendrell]

Scripten & BBT: I've got a moderate town read on these two, especially because they're focused on generating discussion and scumhunting. Then again, could be a scum pair, never know. But I would be much more surprised to find them as scum versus josh/vettrock.

Why do you think they could be a pair? Why not together with other players?

Most of that relies on older posts like 26 and 54 where scripten is seemingly against bbt, but then he chooses to flip and go for josh once he calls out bbt as well. Even now they're both focused on josh again, but so is everyone but wake88 and vettrock. The amount of discussion they've produced, especially with each other, leads me to believe that they're part of the same team. Since they're producing discussion, I heavily lean towards town for my reads on them.

[Asher Kendrell]

Sorry guys, some thunderstorms yesterday left me without power so I haven't been able to post. I'll do a re-read tonight and hopefully post some more.

[Asher Kendrell]

huh.

Josh, what was it that prompted your read on scripten and BBT to change?

Do you mean from BBT/Scripten to BBT/Asher?
An ISO PbPA on Asher. My case really just started with Asher's contradiction to his feelings on Vettrock. First he said he thought Vettrock should have tried to defend Wolfy more if Wolfy was a town read, then he said that he didn't like it that Vettrock was defending me.
If I'm one of Vettrock's town reads, doesn't it make sense that vettrock would defend according to that line of thinking?
I thought,

If Asher didn't like the way Vettrock handled the Wolfy wagon, wouldn't he be more inclined to appreciate the way that Vettrock is handling the Josh wagon?

But while I was doing that deja-vu hit me. What Asher said that he didn't like about Vettrock in the first place was nearly identical to the thing that I've been battling from BBT. /case solved.

I do think vettrock should have defended wolfy. I also think that if he believes you're town, he should defend you. What I didn't like about it was that the first (non-quoted) line of his first post in ~40 hours was defending you. That seems to me to mean that he's extremely focused on protecting you. Which is quite a 180 turn from how he handled the wolfy wagon, which means there's something different about you. Either he's utterly convinced you're town, or you're working together. I don't think that's much of a contradiction on my part.

[Asher Kendrell]

I am done posting, so once wake's finished I think you should choose.

[Asher Kendrell]

AsherKendrell, knowing you have only 16 posts, why are you done posting for now?

Vettrock, my excuse for not posting is because I've been hit very hard with work. What is your reason for not posting?

I extend this question to Asher, too, especially since he's stated he's done posting.

I said I was done posting in response to scripten waiting for me. I had said that I wished to post something, posted it, and told him that was what I wanted to post. It wasn't supposed to be a "I'm done posting, only lurking from here on out.", it's more of a "I said what I mentioned wanting to say, you don't have to wait for me now."

I'm still here to post.

[Asher Kendrell]

My response to 404

Spoiler:

Asher,

He seemed pretty convinced that wolfy wasn't scum.... If he was convinced about wolfy's innocence, he could have fought harder.

What? is this the same exact thing that BBT is trying to push? I think it is.

Both your vote on Wolfy, and your vote on me have been empty. I'm glad that you were able to convey your reasonings for voting Wolfy in this DP. But last DP when I asked you for a catch up post would have been better.

I just looked in my refrigerator for Ketchup, and I didn't have any. So, I was sad. Then I wondered if Asher felt the same way in this game.

No Catsup Asher?

I'm sorry, but I find that to just be snarky, not discussion. That's not asking for a catch up post.

Where did you come up with this?

so it sounds more like he would be okay with a no lynch as long as it happens slow rather than immediately.

Did vettrock actually say that he would like a no lynch, or just that he didn't want a lynch on wolfy. Did he say he didn't want a lynch on Wolfy, or just that the speed of the lynch was anti-town?]

Vettrock said that an early no lynch is anti-town, but so was a quick lynch. That leaves either a slow lynch or a slow no lynch. Since he was against the lynch on Day 1, he must have been for the slow no lynch. Or he was fence sitting like I said earlier.

I'll be blunt, I feel like Josh is digging himself into a hole here. I'm with scripten and bbt.

I'm not liking how vettrock only comes in to defend him.

And you didn't like it when he didn't defend his town read, so which do you like? when he does or when he doesn't?

Already talked about this in 499.

Response to 379 Spoiler that I felt pertained to me (Josh_b)

Could just be a bad play for town, or I'm thinking cornered scum.

Which part is bad town play? and what is cornered scum about what I've said and done so far?

322 and 360 are just you lashing out at BBT. That looks to me like you're feeling trapped and trying to escape. Even if you think he's scum, it's beyond necessary.

End of story just sounds like a cop out. It forces an end to questions and attempts to end all discussion. I can't see a way that benefits the town. It's just backtracking on his part. Also, "how long do you plan on tunneling this?

I've said the same thing over and over, and over, and over. Please read this post for clarification.post 354

I don't have a problem with repetition. I do have a problem with trying to end discussion. Even discussion that seems like it's going nowhere. People talking about nothing is better than not talking at all.

Yet you drop vettrock 17 minutes later then tunnel on scripten for the rest of the game? Excluding a vote on me which you've now replaced, you've been tunneling on scripten and then call out bbt for tunneling?

Yep, I didn't tunnel on vettrock. The tunneling between Scripten and myslef has been mutual, and I have been tunneled on by BBT.

Except you were focused on a BBT/scripten scum team, but now it's clearly BBT and I who are the scum team. So you call out bbt for tunneling, but you're looking quite focused on him yourself.

[Asher Kendrell]

Now? As in my post changed something?

In any case, I have class tomorrow so I can't post until roughly 17:00 EDT.

[Asher Kendrell]

What happened to waiting until we're certain? Or are you certain about scripten wake?

[Asher Kendrell]

I'm still trying to figure everything out. Scripten did force a stalemate, which did lynch a townie. On the other hand, you did do the hammer and call everyone scum.

[Asher Kendrell]

It's probably best to claim now. I'm Earl.

[Asher Kendrell]

True, but if he hinted about being cop then someone else could have picked up on it too?

[Asher Kendrell]

I was on the fence before, but after him claiming earl I can't see a way he's town.

[Asher Kendrell]

Okay, I can't find the post, but was scripten the one who hid the message in italics?

[Asher Kendrell]

I trust you a lot more than I trust him. I was just thinking that the person who would be searching for hints as to who's cop would be the same one who tried to hide a message in his own posts.

Okay, I'm decided. Hidden messages, fake claiming, it's over.

VOTE: Scripten

[Asher Kendrell]

Scripten if you knew I was lying you should have gone straight for me. You're still focusing on wake?

[Asher Kendrell]

Kinda hard to say that it was quicklynching compared to day 1. And given that our cop died night 2, I don't think any rolefishing really happened.

[Asher Kendrell]

Nicely played everyone!

[Asher Kendrell]

I'd also appreciate any comments on my play. This was my first actual game, so I'm happy with how it went.