Micro 1059: Micro & Normal Stuff | GAME OVER

[Datisi]

yes

i wasn't sure if i'm allowed to say numbers on the hood pt as per the ruleset, but we're all in the hood so i guess whatever lmao

[Datisi]

i still kinda want an answer to "why didn't you better out your reasons for townreading meg yesterday like you did now", but i have a feeling i know what the answer is gonna be

[Datisi]

i'd have to refamiliarize myself with open 857 bc that day 1 has been a while ago and also fuck that game

first obvious difference that comes to mind tho is that my bus on penguin happened only after it was sorta clear that townread people are pushing there (and i had the correct read that the cw was a mason, so penguin was more likely to go through), while here i was on much earlier than necessary i think

and there i made the bussing very flashy and attention grabby, because i knew i was gonna need towncred and to open avenues to push after his flip

i didn't do any of that here, this game is not how i bus

[Datisi]

it should be sufficient to show that with 1 scum left i did not believe it was meg.

it was sufficient to show you think meg is town, i'm just like. thinking a towncase of meg maybe would've been more useful than a scumcase of coral

maybe it wouldn't have been, idk

[Datisi]

do you think there's a difference between meg's play in this game and meg's play in that game still then?

pedit: i'm working afternoons the next three days, which is going to be annoying since you both seem to be more active in my afternoons, but i'll probably shift my sleep schedule somewhat to accommodate for it (yes mafia is very important)

setups are never reviewed by the "whole" nrg

and if setup is normal, then it was reviewed up to normal standards, no matter which queue it's run in

[Datisi]

idk why that quoted but phoneposting at work while making drinks, wee

[Datisi]

in other news i reread datisi's self-towncase in the hood and i kind of dislike it now but that may be because you asked him specifically how he'd have approached day 1 as scum o

he had to answer in hypothetical terms, which isnt really helpful

i don't see how the bolded follows from the first part or why you dislike it?

(i will get to other stuff soon as i just got home)

[Datisi]

did you find any posts that were town!indicative for me, tho

@scsmper

[Datisi]

the point is it is mostly you just say you wouldn't do this or that as scum and i don't think such arguments are really any good

why do you think that argument from me isn't good, but you keep making such arguments yourself?

(this isn't meant to be a shitty gotcha, i'm genuinely curious)

[Datisi]

i mean
how likely do you think it is i'm town here? if less than 100%, then what is making you doubt it?

[Datisi]

this orange slice is on its way to become orange juice,

and doesn’t waste time playing mafia on the internet

.

the mod is shading all of us

[Datisi]

interesting, that's not what i was expecting you to say

is the reason behind that "switch" (ik it's not exactly a switch but you kno what i mean) in reads explained in the last few pages that i haven't read yet? if not, can you explain how you got there? (if yes, then wait for me to finish dinner)

pedit: no, that's fair
i'm just surprised those narrative points are of same weight to you, if that makes sense?

[Datisi]

- it felt like you were nitpicking me to start today and i think that's +scum for you

i mean, when i first entered the day, i was thinking how i almost always end up voting you, but i have since changed my mind and realized this is harder than i first thought, so i feel like my nitpicking had a purpose there

like, do you think my questions were pointless?

[Datisi]

i think it's easier to find arguments for why people are town when you are coming from a place of perfect knowledge and know that your reasons are accurate and you can aways position yourself as being correct. i think i did this a lot in my scumgame

it also really doesnt matter cuz of course you have to go back on it the next day but no one will really care at all, ive never seen anyone get voted for pushing someone they were formerly townreadign at aelo. its easy to frame as re-evaluation

i feel like the same argument can be made a different way - it is easier to stay consistent with your scumreads than to have to fake re-evaluation

and i don't think i see how you can argue that the fact you went back to look for reasons to townread me, then realized there are some reasons to scumread me is a *towntell* for you here, considering it was possible i was one of the people you were gonna have to push in yeetlo (idr if this was before or after ausuka was revealed conftown, but it doesn't really matter i think as you were basically locktown on them anyway)

i think i might just ignore the self-meta entirely because all of it is completely unverifiable and also it makes my head hurt

[Datisi]

pointless no but as scum you are going to want to feel like you are justifying pushing me. if you are town of course you are trying to get a read on me etc etc.

but i thought you going back specifically to say "here are all the posts scamper made about meg, scamper didn't explain his read on meg enough!!" was a nitpicky type of analysis that i can see coming from scum!you

the reason why i went through your iso looking for those posts was to see if i had missed you explaining a read somewhere because i was about to feel really stupid if i had

and i included the quotes to prevent the possibility of scum-scamper telling me they'd explained it already and to just go read myself

[Datisi]

there are quite a few comments that i want to make about my own play and my idea of scumplay, at the comments about my towncases, but that's self meta that i don't think is going to be helpful

idk, i have a bad habit of getting tunneled

but my actual mindset at the start of the day was: i was right, i'm annoyed cuz no one listened to me, i expect both of you to turn against me cuz

whoever was scum was very much setting up for that pivot yesterday

, i just want someone to vote me b/c i hate being the one to decide in this situation


but i will say regardless of whatever my words might seem like they're implying i'm rereading and re-evaluating with an open mind

how is the bolded something you came to the conclusion of? specifically in the context of my play.

[Datisi]

i reread parts of day 3 because i wanted to eval the "i'd have fought harder to keep meg alive" point from scamper, and eh. shortly after the claims happened, and after meg proclaimed that they're lowkey clearing scamper based on the setup, both me and ausuka talked about how we don't wanna kill coral (page 53), and coral obviously isn't going to vote herself.

like, even if scum!scamper did succeed in getting coral voted out on d3, it would've resulted in them having just pushed through a misyeet, and having to vote me if they were gonna stick with their reads, which is a 50/50 then and sure, meg is clearing them then, but there's no guarantee that clear stays because townies do be wildin in yeetlo

so i can definitely see scum!scamper thinking how great it would be to be able to score a coral misyeet but it's just not that viable and it's more risky than it seems, so they're not gonna go all-in pushing coral, but they can argue that they definitely would've done that as scum

i don't think this is a lock or anything since i think town!scamper can think that is what they would've done as scum there

[Datisi]

I thought you were scum due to my day 1 reread and am no longer as convinced on that point, but I will still go into the things that I saw... maybe later once Datisi is asleep and there's less real time interaction happening.

ftr, i'm still interested in your thoughts there, and i will probably be going to sleep soon

i was hoping to get a better grasp of this game tonight, but it's past 1am already and i feel like i'm stuck in place

[Datisi]

Spoiler:

VOTE: meg

i think i wanna start here. i disliked some of their posts, and also the jump on galron in retrospect looks kinda weird. idk it's midnight, i'm trusting my past self right now.

ari(gamma)/ausuka/probscamper still town on play. and i think xayah is Town, Actually. i don't think scum!her, upon seeing galron be about to go down, starts putting me and ausuka oin her most bottom tier, because, uh. i really don't think that we're viable executions here.

coral i need to take a second look at too, i guess. coming tomorrow before my shift. most likely.

Xayah is my thought for partner atm. I feel like the 180 last minute feels like scum trying to catch the bus last minute.
The done kill is interesting, haven't considered the ramifications yet.

Is it overthinking to call this towny? I mean I'm not sure scum meg plays exactly this way. Like, definitely I can see them townreading scamper, but it feels like they're placing more of an emphasis on towncasing scamper vs scumcasimg xayah, whereas I feel like it's more intuitive for scum to do it in reverse. Does that make sense?

ehh... i lowkey got tmi vibes from their towncase post on scamper. because scum rn has to have reads anyway, and i think (1) it's easier to make correct townreads than scumreads, (2) it's easier to stay consistent with them, especially if you're towncasing someone who obviously isn't among the first people on the chopping block

i feel like it's meg because their play kind of just *fits* with what i'd assume buddy-with-galron would be doing. his slot started getting negative attention pretty early on in the game. your partner going down d1 is bad, in a micro normal it's Bad because you could just get fucked over with tprs. but i don't think there was anything to actually townread galron *on*, so what do you do? you hope for distractions. you stir up shit and hope people go to other slots. and i'm reminded now that meg did that both with ari in ausuka/ari, and with scamper.

this usually wouldn't be an issue by itself, but the fact that the arguments they've made about those two were not very good and were consistently getting called out as not very good and just kinda feel inflammatory is hm.

like, i guESS it's possible the partner was just not here and/or not doing anything to stop the wagon but i feel like it's somewhat unlikely both scum just decided to flop because. idk because the universe doesn't like me that much.

i'm not mad??? i'm not even 100% on meg being scum bc if i were i would be pushing much more strongly there. i'm just trying to Solve The Game, sorry if i came off condescending or something, wasn't my intention

@meg, can you give me some examples of coral posts that you found analytically/nuancedly townie?

i just half-read through her iso, and while her posts aren't

bad

, i don't think i've seen anything that struck me as "this is analytical in a way that i really struggle seeing scum fake this". i don't think she's scum for it obviously, but it does make me wanna see more elaboration on the claim she's town for it.

i do think 476 and 482 (calling ari/ausuka/meg townie when they were shitfighting) are +town, considering that galron was already getting suspicion on him, and ausuka had just called out more of his posts. like, coral was at the time voting xayah, and i don't think that wagon was very likely to go though. and she also said she's still suspicious of don, which had a bit more chance to go though, but galron was already voting there and i don't think(?) scum is eager to double up like that in that gamestate. and the next person she'd logically push would be galron, based on 279.

this also strikes me as a counterintuitive progression to have as scum with galron. it doesn't help galron, it doesn't look good as a bus.

i wish i was confident enough on xayah!town to try to hijack the thread, but i'm not. maybe i'm wrong. even if i'm not wrong, this flip is probably needed anyway.

i am interested in hearing xayah's thoughts on scamper, though. and if she has meta on gamma, i'm likely to just locktown that slot even further (and then blame xayah if we lose because of it).

mmm
gut is telling me it is Probably Just Meg Still, but

i really wanna see what meg and scamper put out first
and i wanna properly revisit a few events on day one to make sure i'm not retconning them in my mind

maybe massclaim today too, i'll decide tomorrow

ok off to bed, see ya in the morning

dats, for having a non-vt result on meg, it feels like you never really pressured them strongly or asked them to claim or tried to persuade other people on the read, and i have to ask why you didnt push that harder? i realize a non-vt from a nea is not a true guilty but on a reread i couldnt help but feel your approach was oddly lackadaisical

i did not want to make it obvious that my read on meg is informed with a result, because if they are scum and realized that, they would probably be trying to guess what kind of guilty i have and claim a role that explains it

like, if i out of the blue asked them to claim, that probably doesn't end well, whether they're town or scum

i was still trying to sort them with my result because i really did not want to shitpush a power role into claiming and i was trying to guess how hard i wanna go after them

also, those two quotes happened after meg softed/claimed non-vt so idk why you're including them

[Datisi]

those last two quotes*

i am looking forward to reading the coral walls, but that will have to wait until i get some coffee

[Datisi]

datisi how dare you interrupt, i wasn't finished

well have you considered putting it all into the same post smh

[Datisi]

loved the coral walls, though that may be because they're calling me town

in more seriousness, the part that stood out to me is 1541. the rest of the case i could more easily see coming from scum, since it's made in a retelling-day-1 sort of way. but 1541 is a read that... well i don't think it's very convincing because it's making assumptions that don't have to be correct and might not even be likely to be correct, but the

creativity

of that read is something i rarely see from scum. not just because it's rarely convincing to town, but because they simply don't think of stuff like that. obviously ymmv based on meta, but it's +town.

reading the rest of the case reminded me of something else, though...

[Datisi]

scamper, did anything ever come from 1441?

and, based on you saying how "nitpicking is +scum from me" and apparently having secret tells on me, i take it you're decently familiar with my scumgame. how is your read on my overall play this game influenced by meta? and ik you said my interactions w galron weren't as strong as you remembered them, but 1271 is the only negative i see there and you said yourself those quotes were out of context, have you gone back to check them?

i guess you're likely to comment on this anyway since coral did just talk a lot about my day 1, but this part is something i want a response on ig

ok, breakfast, then i'm doing the thing i've been procrastinating on and actually rereading d1

[Datisi]

Hi!

very okay with a hammer on galron, still catching up and will see if there's anything I think needs to be responded to before then

what were your thoughts behind this post, coral? (ik it might seem like a dumb q but bear with me)

[Datisi]

there is something really funny about the fact that both scamper and coral were townreading phoenix, and then started arguing about eachother's reasons for townreading phoenix

scamper is a competent scum player so i could definitely see them trying to get attention off of phoenix, but doing so by attacking phoenix's defender which instinctually looks non-partnered

and oof, i called out both scamper and phoenix for pushing what i thought were ez misyeets, if scamper really is scum, i'm a genius

259 (and galron's response in 285) feel like they should be +town for scamper, because i feel like scamper would've coached galron much better on how to respond to that and how to make that interaction seem less-partnery, while i can more easily see coral telling galron something along the lines of "tell scamper you see things differently and ask why does that make you mafia"

i'm also assuming that scamper would've told galron to keep responding to his response to that, but galron lowkey lurked out soon after so this isn't as good

i still think the way scamper approached the ari/aus argument is +town, but less than i thought so before because scamper obviously knows a few things about me - and it's likely he'd have known that (1) i was gonna recognize ari/aus being a t/t shitfest, and (2) that i have the capacity of shutting that down if i want to

chugging two cups of coffee while playing yeetlo was a bad idea bc i'm getting heart flutters now but anyway where were we

and being a miller exponentially increases the chance of a town Rolecop existing btw since it gives it utility.

lmao

scamper also probably shouldn't be getting as many town points as i thought for trying to ~sort~ me via voting me bc i see that vote was like, argued against my ausuka right away, so if he's scum ten he was probably never planning on actually yeeting me anyway? or like, i think still my yeet would be more of an uphill battle than needed

but also he didn't vote-to-sort many other people, or like anyone i think?, so that probably wasn't a looking-for-alternatives vote, so still somewhat +town

My guess would be that it's one of Galron or Xayah

but not both

, alongside... Don or Datisi? I haven't thought about that too much but it feels reasonable

why did you say "but not both" here?

god it really fucking sucks that coral wasn't around when i was drunk and there was a lot of pressure around don, because i think it would've been really informative to see how she played around that

@scamper, how strongly were you scumreading don around page 28? because your vote is still on me (and it's not doing much there), and it seems don's somewhat decently being scumread by the thread, any reason you didn't vote him at the time?

ok this is where galron claimed and he was basically gone after that so wtv, i need to go to work anyway

current thought is that i might actually be leaning coral here??? like, some of scamper's posts are obviously like, bad in retrospect, but there seemed to be multiple points where he could've argued against a galron elim harder than he did. like if scum, it seems like he was planning on throwing shade on multiple people and hoping someone latches onto it so that galron doesn't flip, *but* he didn't do that in one of the bigger shitfights of arivaus, and there were better arguments he could've done against possible misyeets

like, if he's scum then he kinda-but-not-really let galron die, and that feels weird? at least it feels weird from a more experienced player, i probably would've been scumreading that from a newer player

and i'm wondering if d1 would've played out differently if a scumbuddy was more present, which scamper was, but coral wasn't really, at least not in the latter parts of the day

ok i really gotta go, i'll think about this more at work and also hope that the responses of you two shed some light on this for me

it has started to actually sink in for me how short the deadline is

fuck this game

[Datisi]

i mean, the thing is as scum sometimse its beneficial to not want to get your hands dirty, so i'm not really sure this all is as clearing as you are treating it, at all

do you think *in this scenario*, with galron being in the position that he was, it would've been beneficial?

[Datisi]

i mean that's fair, i'm just saying

you say that it could be beneficial for scum to hang back sometimes

what do you think is the possible benefit for scumtisi to be doing that then?

[Datisi]

and i kind of think you exaggerate the extent to how "attention-grabby" your push on penguin was that game but i also think you have no reason to lie about that this game and its likely you just remembered it different. its true you were on phoe early bu i dont think its *impossible* for you tp pressure a teammate early in a game either

i had legit never done the "this is the vc, i want EVERYONE to give thoughts and stances" and whatever bs i did there, which is what i am thinking of, so i wouldn't say i'm exaggerating

i think you may be talking about two different things here bc pressuring a teammate is one thing, but actually getting on him (with intent to yeet, which i'm assuming is implied here) is another thing

like i am definitely capable of pressuring buddies early as scum

[Datisi]

Good morning, friends

Before responding to all these things I'll say that I think scamper's idea about voting is rather nifty and I think it probably benefits town, so I'm good with it if Datisi is?

on one hand, i'm good with it because i know we gotta get a move on

on the other, i wanna keep lying to myself that we still have time

but yeah we can fake vote i agree

[Datisi]

and like, coral has played scum before. she knows this is not how scum teams operate or how they communicate. this doesnt really make sense.

the reason why that struck me as town is because like, i know the read is not very convincing and unrealistic, but that's also why i just don't think scum thinks of it, and even if they do think of it, they don't write it out bc it's easy to get shut down and it's not convincing for basically anyone

maybe scum!coral thought it was a clever point idk, but it struck me as not as likely to come from scum

[Datisi]

Hi!

very okay with a hammer on galron, still catching up and will see if there's anything I think needs to be responded to before then

what were your thoughts behind this post, coral? (ik it might seem like a dumb q but bear with me)

I saw Don post 834 and 853, and I hadn't checked in since Galron's claim (which happened while I was asleep). Claiming and then abandoning thread seemed like obvious scum to me so I was happy with a hammer there. I was busy all of the previous day so I hadn't really commented on a lot of what had happened, and thought I might still want to do so, but ended up deciding that there wasn't much that was relevant anymore.

mmm

did you have any thoughts on the actual claim?

[Datisi]

I probably would have if I had seen it happen live, but by the time I got there he had already been missing for several hours after claiming and that was much stronger of a reason for me. On seeing it as I was reading up, though, I did immediately think that it didn't seem like a role that really fit with my role, but I'm not very confident in my setup speculation abilities, so it wasn't a reason I was going to hang anything on.

as i was rereading d1, i realized just how anti-synergetic galron's roleclaim is with yours (i think i'd be expected of a rolecop to invest a claimed miller on n1)

i got excited bc i thought town!you would've also been thinking that way immediately

but i am less convinced on the validity of that read now since i did come up with it when i knew there was no rolecop

[Datisi]

didnt know what to do with my vote

i don't have issues with the reasons you had to scumread don

i'm asking bc i think there is a clear scum benefit to not immediately voting him but consistently pressuring him (mainly, figuring out the availability of the don misyeet)

bc your vote was on me to ~sort me~, so i'm curious why you weren't using your vote on don the same way

[Datisi]

like, some of scamper's posts are obviously like, bad in retrospect, but there seemed to be multiple points where he could've argued against a galron elim harder than he did. like if scum, it seems like he was planning on throwing shade on multiple people and hoping someone latches onto it so that galron doesn't flip, *but* he didn't do that in one of the bigger shitfights of arivaus, and there were better arguments he could've done against possible misyeets

like, if he's scum then he kinda-but-not-really let galron die, and that feels weird? at least it feels weird from a more experienced player, i probably would've been scumreading that from a newer player

and i'm wondering if d1 would've played out differently if a scumbuddy was more present, which scamper was, but coral wasn't really, at least not in the latter parts of the day

I don't understand why these points apply to making scamper town and not me? Just because I was busy that weekend, so I wouldn't have had time to post if I was scum? I was posting for around 3 hours on Saturday (and could have made time later in the day if I felt like it was important), but my focus was mostly on just kind of engaging with what was going on, I ended up finding some reasons to townread a few people, and didn't make any pushes on anything. If I were scum there I would have taken a more active role in pushing things towards a town elimination. I'm capable of doing that and it is generally my priority.

i mean, this isn't something that i can exactly verify

maybe scum!you was too busy to post, or too low motivation, and now you're claiming otherwise. maybe you thought laying low would be better, to hope town fucks up by themselves, rather than that you go trying to save galron, i don't know.

[Datisi]

jesus, this entire conversation about scumbuddy-told-galron-they're-getting-don-yeeted situation is making me wanna drink again

are either of you online? i obviously wanna hear what scamper has to say about his gut screaming at him, but also if we wanna do the fake-voting thing, i wanna do mine tonight since i will be going to sleep in an hour or so

coral, how well do you know my play / are familiar with my meta?

[Datisi]

I had a reason why I decided they were unlikely paired at that point, I'll try to look for what it was. I do remember that later that day, once Galron was looking like clearly scum, I reassessed the reason and decided it wasn't good. Maybe it was just that it felt like at that point both had disappeared and the game is never that easy? Xayah hadn't posted substantially for over 40 hours at the time I posted that. I think I also just tend to believe that it's very unlikely both of my top scumreads on day 1 are correct.

And I agree, it's unfortunate I wasn't around,

but I had important things going on all day.

I will just say that I think that it's pretty clear that I didn't make any real effort to push anyone in the days prior, or do anything to move things towards a town elimination. The fact that you did the same is part of the reason I feel you're more likely to be town. If you think I'm scum here, I'm just wondering what you think my approach or my plan was?

you said earlier you would've been more present if you were scum, right? how does that coexist with you here claiming you had important things to do?

i mean, if you're scum, i don't think you ever *want* to actually play d1 the way you played it. but if you were busy and you didn't have time to invest in turning the game around, i do think it's possible you decided to quietly and passively bus galron, because (1) you're not exactly adding fuel to the flame, so he could potentially get out of it, (2) you get to argue you wouldn't have played it that way

like it's obviously not optimal, but i also don't think it's that difficult to see?

[Datisi]

like specifically the "we both didn't push town on d1" is overlooking the difference that i was there and i had possible options that i could've pushed, and i was *there*

going mia for a bit in the game, then claiming "i didn't push on town" is weird because, technically yes, you didn't push on town, but you didn't do much to push on scum either

now i'm wondering if that line was a subtle pocket attempt

help

[Datisi]

coral, how well do you know my play / are familiar with my meta?

I would say pretty well.

mm, okay

based on the reads you have of me here, that is the feeling i got. i also got the feeling it could've been tmi, if you'd said you didn't know me *that* well.

pedit: i'll go check the days, i wasn't looking at timestamps when rereading

[Datisi]

Sunday (North American time) I was busy all day and didn't post or even really check the thread at all. Saturday I had time to post, including the 3 hour window when I did post. I was referring to being more present on Friday or Saturday.

ok i checked, i think this was around the time where... it really did not seem very likely galron was going to be dying? or rather, it was far from it being decided he's the yeet. so i don't think the argument that you would've spent that time pushing more town is very convincing, because at the time it's not like scum!you could've known that galron was gonna keep being a lurksack and end up getting votes and that he's gonna need saving

[Datisi]

we can probably decide this in the pt if you wanna do it, that person won' have to place the vote tonight

i don't think i get the difference btwn deciding it in the pt, or deciding it here

[Datisi]

see - im not actually sure not voting him has the benefit you are describing - i think if you actually vote someone and start a wagon other people have to react to it and state a willingness to join or not

i mean, i am like, *aware* that having a vote on someone is generally a better way to nudge their yeet on than just by talking

but the fact that your votes don't match your words, and your treatment of me doesn't match the treatment of don, and that is ~weird~, and i'm trying to figure out if it's scum-weird or just weird. because i can see a potential way scum could try to use a situation like this - like, this is more likely to be overlooked as a push later because you didn't use your vote, you get to argue it wasn't that strong, etc - while still trying to see how viable don is

[Datisi]

A couple questions, one small and one less small:
1) Did you mean anything by your intro post? It sounds a little sarcastic, but I'm not sure why.

2) At what point did your read on me start to change? I feel like a lot of that progression isn't visible, can you track through when it happened and why?

1) i was poking fun at ausuka. the day before this game started, the two of us were playing keep talking and nobody explodes, where one person is defusing a bomb, and the other person is walking them through it. i was the bomb defuser, and i died multiple times. thanks, ausuka.

2) i had a lot of problems with scamper's play that i thought were scum-indicative, but as the day progressed i found their answers about my concerns to just be... good? other than that, i still find a lot of his play to be town indicative that i laid out in earlier days.

it's not so much that my read on you changed, it's that my read on scamper shifted, and yours didn't shift in the way that would allow you to keep being +town over scamper.

i can go into this in a little bit more detail in a few, because i don't know off the top of my head what specifically made me shift, but yeah.

i'll be revisiting stuff anyway, and i probably won't be voting until both of you are around either way, because i think anxiety about leaving my vote out without confirmation whether it's correct would eat me alive

[Datisi]

yeah, when i entered the day, by far my biggest issues with scamper's play were:
- didn't have a good case on why meg is town, but kept strongtownreading them anyway
- seemed to ignore me when i kept asking them about why meg is town

because i thought that *that* showed a degree of tmi-ness on meg's alignment, and if scamper is scum then it's in his interest to be defending te d3 yeet if he's gonna be facing off two people that pushed them through

but i think his answers about his read on meg make sense, and otherwise his play just feels town to me. not because of any big events, but because of smaller stuff that feel like inconsistencies that scum don't make or don't think about faking it

i wish i could summarize my reasons for thinking it's you, but i don't exactly *have* them - it's just that i have better reasons to think scamper is town than i do thinking you are

because if i had good reasons to think one of you is scum, i'd have voted a long time ago

[Datisi]

i'd quote the post but i don't remember when it was made or in which thread

@scamper, you said something along the lines of not wanting to do real time interactions as scum; is my "scum!scamper would've tried to abuse the ari/aus shitfight instead of calming it down" idea correct?

[Datisi]

i do have a reason im town but im not sure how convincing it will be, hopefully it doesnt matter

has this been outed yet?

[Datisi]

god i wish i wasn't mentally tuning out scamper in that mini for basically the whole time after the d1 flip

[Datisi]

scamper, if you were scum this game, how do you think you play d2?

[Datisi]

i wish i could summarize my reasons for thinking it's you, but i don't exactly *have* them - it's just that i have better reasons to think scamper is town than i do thinking you are

i think the best explicit reason why you're more likely scum, or like a moment that explicitly shows scum motivation, is when you decided you wanted me to vote first

i was not in the mood to argue that last night because i was barely keeping my eyes open, but

in my mind, it would make sense that a townie would want whoever they're scum to vote first. because if scum votes first, you know the game is not going to end yet. and like, if you're town who thinks i'm town and who sees i'm leaning you, then it seems very counterintuitive to me for you to want *me* to vote first. because if i'm town and i vote town!you, that's that, gg. whereas even if scamper!scum votes you first, you still have a chance of convincing me

and even if you do want me to vote first anyway, then i'd expect town!you to actually be presenting more reasons why i should reconsider voting you and instead vote scamper and etc etc. where your 393 in the hood is just *weird* from town-you because it's showing a resigning "well idk how to actually convince you if you're town" attitude which (1) is odd compared to your attitude earlier, (2) is odd because

you

were the fake-hammer vote on me

and also shortly after deciding you want me to hammer first, you start going into potential mechanical problems with my play, which is just... very peculiar timing

like, i absolutely hate that the perhaps best reasons i can point out as scum motivation of someone all happened within like 24 hours before the game's end, because i feel like i should have better reasons and longer-lasting reasons, but

idk i'm tired i didn't sleep much last night

[Datisi]

hi sorry, are you both going to be on 3 hours before deadline onwards? bc bc work is busier than i thought and i do not have the ability to read and digest wallposts right now

[Datisi]

ok i am here!! reading now

[Datisi]

Scum getting to choose who they 1v1 with is incredibly valuable.

sure, but it also guarantees the game goes down to a 1v1.

scamper, as either alignment, is good at arguing and at getting me to doubt myself. I've been wavering a bit, sometimes more than others, and the question asked in the hood prompted me to think more about the assumptions that I was making earlier and realize that they were incorrect.

how confident are you currently on him being scum vs on me being scum?

I don't see why there's strategic benefit to me as scum starting to suspect you here, so I don't really get your point? On the surface it looks like I'm realigning myself in some way to get ready for a new direction. That will draw your attention and probably make you suspicious of me. But there's no reason for me to do that as scum, because if you vote for me, I can just find those reasons then. It doesn't benefit me at all to be preparing to angle towards you beforehand unless it's something that I think will make me look more town (which I don't think it really does).

i don't think it's *strategic*, exactly. if you're scum here, you kind of have a choice of who you want to 1v1 - scamper seems to be 50/50, and i'm leaning you. so it seems logical that you'd rather have scamper be the deciding vote than me be the deciding vote.

and if you can sense that i'm going to be voting you, and that you'll be 1v1ing me, i think it's kind of instinctual to want to get a head start on that? because like, either you (1) have to show that you think i might be scum, or (2) you have to start trying really, REALLY hard to convince me you're actually town

because like, if you do neither of those things, THEN it looks like you're saying "yeah, i think datisi is town, but i also want datisi to vote first, yes i'm aware he's probably voting me, lols". and that is very obviously not something town ever does? (unless they give zero shits about the game, which obviously doesn't apply to you)

[Datisi]

I think that my stated reasoning when I talk about why I chose you makes it pretty clear that I think there is a strong possibility of you being scum.

i think it looked more like you're not as sure on scamper!scum as you were before, but this is semantics

i don't think it's *strategic*, exactly. if you're scum here, you kind of have a choice of who you want to 1v1 - scamper seems to be 50/50, and i'm leaning you. so it seems logical that you'd rather have scamper be the deciding vote than me be the deciding vote.

and if you can sense that i'm going to be voting you, and that you'll be 1v1ing me, i think it's kind of instinctual to want to get a head start on that? because like, either you (1) have to show that you think i might be scum, or (2) you have to start trying really, REALLY hard to convince me you're actually town

because like, if you do neither of those things, THEN it looks like you're saying "yeah, i think datisi is town, but i also want datisi to vote first, yes i'm aware he's probably voting me, lols". and that is very obviously not something town ever does? (unless they give zero shits about the game, which obviously doesn't apply to you)

I still don't see why I would want to get a head start on that. There's no need for a clean progression there. And if I didn't ever think that you might be scum, I would have voted scamper a while ago, so clearly that possibility has still been on my mind all day.

Maybe I misunderstood how likely you were to vote me? At the time I decided I wanted you to vote first, I thought you were closer to undecided but the way you're talking now makes it sound like you are strongly leaning towards me.

because it's easier to do than make huge cases attempting to convince me you're town, and because reminding scamper for reasons why they were suspicious of us / showing that you agree with them can potentially pocket them? i also think that most scum try to have some level of consistency - you're going to claim you wouldn't have done it because it wasn't necessary, and i can't prove otherwise obviously, but it's something that i just *feel* is likely to be coming from scum!mindset who's about to enter a 1v1

[Datisi]

It could be my bias, but it felt like there was a lot of "okay this reason to townread scamper isn't as good as I thought" and then at the end you said you were leaning towards me and it just... kind of felt like you had already decided that's what you wanted to do and weren't looking at the game on a deeper level.

i was going through d1 and writing out what came to me... there's not many comments on you because you were not as present on d1, which is something for itself

like, i found that my reasons for townreading scamper had possible holes in them, but also that they were overall still there, and that the game made more sense to me with you being scum than with them being scum

do you think that scum!me, who decided i was gonna end on a scumread on you, spends the entirety of the post saying how my reasons for townreading scamper weren't as good as before?

Especially because in the hood it felt like you were pretty on board with the "meg or scamper is scum" plan, and said that I was very likely to just be town. It feels like the progression to get from there to where you entered today is missing.

the reason why i was on board with that plan is because i thought it was just meg, and i felt like i had good reasons to townread both you and scamper >.>

[Datisi]

i think scum!me would be capable of coming up with better reasons to call you scum if i wanted to

if anything, scamper has been calling you scum basically all game, that's a place for inspiration

ftr, i don't think my reasons for thinking you're scum are *great*, but unfortunately the deadline is in two hours and i'm half braindead currently which means that i don't have the luxury of acquiring better material

[Datisi]

god i feel extremely shitty saying this if you're town, but no, i don't really

1) and 2) sorta blend into self-meta points that i can see coming from town-you but i also can see scum-you make in a "i wish i had played this part differently" sort of way

3) is the only part that's kind of convincing, but also it's like, i feel that it applies to all of us because i don't think anyone has been trying to shove their own ideas at the expense of others'

(i think you might actually be closest to *not* doing that with the cases you wrote for town-me scum-scamper, but also not really and this isn't something i would actually consider that ai anyway)

[Datisi]

do u have any questions for me dats?

i don't think i do

i'm racking my brain to see if i can ask anything of you, but i'm getting the feeling your answers will just be sensible and won't actually let me solve you better

[Datisi]

i typed up a coral vote but i deleted it

i feel like there is *something* that will show the answer to me but i'm just so tired and i know it's probably not there anyway

[Datisi]

I could have pushed for scamper instead yesterday.

how was this ever viable yesterday? meg thought he was town, i was saying he's town, ausuka was just paranoid on him, but had a stronger scumread of meg

[Datisi]

i'm fairly certain i had at least one (1) post in the main thread saying that i think he's probably Just Town, and i had spent the last like few days talking about it being meg

obviously my confidence there on d2 was a bit exaggerated but the read still stood

[Datisi]

aaaaah i kinda wish you hadn't told me that

[Datisi]

agh, does scum!scamper risk me being a paranoid mess like that

unless he's literally just making fun of me at this point

[Datisi]

do you think it's a scummy thing to say?

[Datisi]

VOTE: coral

i'm so sorry if this is wrong

i wish i had more time and i wish i wasn't feeling so utterly braindead right now but

i've gone through the game and coral being scum makes more sense to me than scamper being scum. maybe i'm wrong. i'm usually wrong. i did think about my "vote the opposite of who you think it is" idea i had after i lost the last yeetlo i was in, but i don't think i can

i don't think i'll be changing my mind here so if scamper is scum, end the game, and if not there is at least a bit more time left for discussion if needed

[Datisi]

scamper please i'm feeling nauseous

pedit: oh thank fuck

[Datisi]

holy shit i think i stopped breathing for a bit there

i have to start getting ready for bed, but i'll do my best to try to answer things if you need me to

[Datisi]

actually, quick question that i wanted to remember to ask: datisi, why did you not see your role and coral's as a difference check on day 3? from my pov it was clear that it didn't make sense for all 3 of don/datisi/coral's claims to be town in a micro, and you've designed and hosted a lot of games...

i have also read a lot of how nrg balances games. it's what i said on d3 (was it d3? idk), even if 3 clears happen on d2, that is still a 50% ev for scum, assuming there's 2 of them alive. that's not a *great* way of balancing games, but it is one that gets used sometimes.

then the fact that if all our roles are true, then there's a possibility that there's only one clear on d2, as both me and don are unreliable investigatives. and *that* is not even getting into the fact that scum can kill one before they get their shot off (like happened here), and that is also not accounting what roles scum may have to counter those investigatives

like the setup would've been very swingy obviously, but any normal with a lot of unreliable investigatives is going to be swingy. swing is not a requirement for balance

[Datisi]

til then state your cases

this is going to be mostly rambly and a mess and mostly me repeating myself, but

the biggest things i can point at that show coral being scum is her reactions to the fact i was going to be the one voting first. like, the way she was kinda calm about it and showing some token vague reasons for maybe me being scum. and the idea that scum picking their 1v1 is somehow bad is lol because the other option is that there's a chance town literally just loses. it's trying to justify choices that were made to benefit scum!her. she didn't wanna 1v1 you because that was probably not gonna end well for her and she knows that

it really sucks that i had a weak-er day 1 here than usual, bc i was busy irl and also in multiple ongoings at the time, but i think my play has been pretty town this game, especially if you know my meta. i don't wanna talk longer about this unless you want me to bc you said you dislike some forms of self-meta and i don't wanna fuck the game up now, but

it's also annoying because my reasons for deciding to vote coral weren't so much her being scum than they were finding you townie for things that i thought were unlikely to come from scum-you with partner-galron (trying to placate arivaus, lolvoting me but not even trying to push on me properly, etc.) but you already know your alignment so idk how helpful this is for anything

[Datisi]

ok

uhm, another one: when you started to say you thought it was coral last night and leading into day, how do i know you weren't just telling me what i wanted to hear, since i was visibly agitated by being tunneled by coral?

can you be more specific about which parts of the game you're talking about? idk what "last night" is for you

but also i don't think scum-me tries to bet the game on you getting annoyed at coral pushing you, when (1) you have shown that you are very capable of townreading town that is being annoying/unreasonable (eg. meg), (2) coral has been lowkey aligning to vote you for a while now, like even before start of d3 she says she thinks it's more likely you than me, and doesn't really change her mind much there

like i'm just choosing a harder path for myself when that is something i wouldn't want to do not would enjoy doing

[Datisi]

i can see 1197 being a scum post

1197 was a "oh shit oh fuck the person i have a neap-guilty on just heavily softed a pr, fuck what do i do"

i didn't wanna look like an idiot for pushing a pr out, and also from that point on i knew that either meg gets killed (problem solved), i get killed (people probably understand and meg has already locked themselves into claiming pr anyway), or neither of us die and i can continue my push on d3

[Datisi]

i meant the past 24 hours or so basically

i think my previous answer still applies - you getting annoyed because coral is pushing you is a very dangerous thing to be trying to capitalize on because you've shown in the game to be able to correctly townread people despite of it

and if i were to try that, i would probably come up with better reasons to do so? because scum-me would be aware that you'd be on the lookout for that sorta thing, and i would have to have better arguments that wouldn't be relying on your emotions or wtv

like idk how else to say that i've just been saying things in this yeetlo that came to mind and hoped that they would lead me to the correct solution

[Datisi]

i don't know. i kind of worried he was playing both sides for a while, for a lot of this phase and it was part of why i was doubting him. but ultimately he did reach a conclusion.

scamper

have you ever seen me actually be confident in ANYTHING in yeetlo

i reached a conclusion because i was forced to, but my play was partly made so i could try to find who is trying to win a scum endgame and who is trying to solve. i feel like that's historically been my strongest way of finding scum late game. and that's how i found coral, because her play around the whole "datisi should be voting first thing" was just so utterly off and it seemed designed to get her into the best possible endgame

[Datisi]

i have been shaking for the past 3 days, this yeetlo took a few years off my life

thank you very much for modding relly and also screw you for the red role pm

town, you played really well and this was a really difficult game for me. i will probably have more commentary tomorrow as i don't think i'm able to form coherent sentences right now

i need to go catch up on sleep

was a pleasure to play with all of you