Micro 1059: Micro & Normal Stuff | GAME OVER

[Datisi]

idk why that quoted but phoneposting at work while making drinks, wee

[scamper]

This is probably a minor point but before I get into more detailed responses, I noticed a few times people mentioning the NRG when considering the setup. Reminder that we're in the Micro queue, and although the setup is Normal, it was reviewed by Schadd, and not necessarily the whole NRG. I don't know if that affects any assumptions being made, but just in case.

coral i just want to ask: are you aware of whether your info will be revealed on your flip or not? traditionally informed info is redacted but im not sure how it would be handled


if i wanted to i could probably dig through hours of mod meta on schadds thoughts on investigative roles since he hosts so many games but im also not, like, sure it matters all tat much. it also doesnt help me decide who is scum and that is kind of the biggest problem in my face right now

[Coral]

I would probably assume that it would be redacted, but I was not made explicitly aware of what would happen. Why?

[Coral]

At the end of day yesterday, did you miss 1385 from Datisi, or did you choose not to respond to it?

The non-response to that was what made me feel that you didn't really care about convincing anyone Meg was town even when they reached out to you about it, but you seem to be implying today that you felt you weren't ever even asked.

[scamper]

I would probably assume that it would be redacted, but I was not made explicitly aware of what would happen. Why?

i ask because were you at any point afraid you that info would be lost if you died without claiming?

[scamper]

At the end of day yesterday, did you miss 1385 from Datisi, or did you choose not to respond to it?

The non-response to that was what made me feel that you didn't really care about convincing anyone Meg was town even when they reached out to you about it, but you seem to be implying today that you felt you weren't ever even asked.

i think at that point i was so exasperated/convinced it was hopeless that i was only skimming, yes. i like to think i pay more attention to detail as scum but ymmv

[Coral]

I would probably assume that it would be redacted, but I was not made explicitly aware of what would happen. Why?

i ask because were you at any point afraid you that info would be lost if you died without claiming?

not really, I guess? maybe I should have been?

I didn't think that i was at all likely to die night 1, and even if I did, my neighborize shot on Ausuka would have gone off, so she could have claimed the info for me. I suppose that does leave some possibility that she is making up the info but I didn't really think that far in advance because, again, I thought overnight that I was likely to be a main candidate for elimination on day 2 and there was no real reason for me to get nightkilled.

I did also try to make it my earliest stated opinion on the game, and would hope that would help people deduce what the information was if they saw that I flipped informed.

[scamper]

like, i think it is fundamentally correct i didn't care at that point but it was that i felt my arguments were falling on deaf ears and didnt care to repeat myself and deadline was approaching. town can have lapses in motivation too.

[scamper]

I would probably assume that it would be redacted, but I was not made explicitly aware of what would happen. Why?

i ask because were you at any point afraid you that info would be lost if you died without claiming?

not really, I guess? maybe I should have been?

I didn't think that i was at all likely to die night 1, and even if I did, my neighborize shot on Ausuka would have gone off, so she could have claimed the info for me. I suppose that does leave some possibility that she is making up the info but I didn't really think that far in advance because, again, I thought overnight that I was likely to be a main candidate for elimination on day 2 and there was no real reason for me to get nightkilled.

I did also try to make it my earliest stated opinion on the game, and would hope that would help people deduce what the information was if they saw that I flipped informed.

okay, fair enuf, just trying to see if ur posts track in terms of perspective


i wanna ask since youre here: how do you believe you have played this game differently in contrast to Open 854?

[Coral]

like, i think it is fundamentally correct i didn't care at that point but it was that i felt my arguments were falling on deaf ears and didnt care to repeat myself and deadline was approaching. town can have lapses in motivation too.

I can understand that, I think the progression is a bit more believable as town if you didn't notice the question, and I guess you might be unlikely as scum to just flat out ignore it if you did see it. The counterpoint would be that if you were still considering Datisi to be scum, I would have expected you to be reading his posts to try to sort him, while as scum you might not feel much of a need to do that.

I just feel that the way that Datisi went out of his way yesterday to towncase you and me is a townier approach. He wants to get all of his thoughts out there, he wants to fully explain all facets of his reasoning, and that includes both why Meg was scum and also why everyone else was town. That's also dangerous to do as scum knowing that he will end up in a 3p elo with the two people he just towncased -- he has to reverse his position on both of us, and he has to hope that his cases weren't convincing enough for us to townread each other.

And on the other hand, when I asked you to expand on why you were confident calling Datisi town, you went and found a bunch of reasons why he could be scum, and you never went into detail on why Meg's play was towny. It's believable that you could do that as town (i don't at all mean to say you're scummy for not being confident on Datisi town, since that is a very reasonable position, to be clear), but I think that the play does benefit you if you're scum, moreso than Datisi's play yesterday benefits him.

[Coral]

(also, datisi, I am answering your earlier question, I promise, there's just lots of things to talk about )

[Coral]

i wanna ask since youre here: how do you believe you have played this game differently in contrast to Open 854?

That game had a pretty similar scenario d2 to if I were scum here on d1, where I had a partner who wasn't very active and was kind of a consensus compromise scumread while all the active people talked amongst themselves. My approach there was to have a strong presence and get widely townread, try to push the thread in directions away from my partner, and to case people to set up for pushes on future days.

I made multiple mistakes that day phase, though, ones that I probably would try to avoid repeating. The biggest one, I think, was not pushing hard enough for a town elimination. I had an opportunity to choose the days elimination and I didn't take it out of the hopes that it would get me towncred (it didn't get me very much). My interactions with my partner were also weak, and I ended up just kind of weakly supporting the elimination without actually getting any credit for the bus.

I think it's fair to argue that this game, if I were scum, I did set up people for pushes on future days, and I did have a similar trajectory where I weakly supported the Galron elimination without actually getting any credit for a bus.

The differences (and ones that I think are town-indicative) are that here I didn't really make any efforts to Be Towny and create a strong presence, or push strongly for any town eliminations. And although you can't exactly trust me when I say that I would avoid repeating the same pattern of weak partner interactions and weak positioning surrounding their wagon... I most certainly would.

Day 2 and onward I cared more about trying to solve things with Ausuka than about performing for the main thread, which I don't think would really benefit me as scum beyond the fact that I get to say this now.

[scamper]

like, i think it is fundamentally correct i didn't care at that point but it was that i felt my arguments were falling on deaf ears and didnt care to repeat myself and deadline was approaching. town can have lapses in motivation too.

I can understand that, I think the progression is a bit more believable as town if you didn't notice the question, and I guess you might be unlikely as scum to just flat out ignore it if you did see it. The counterpoint would be that if you were still considering Datisi to be scum, I would have expected you to be reading his posts to try to sort him, while as scum you might not feel much of a need to do that.

I just feel that the way that Datisi went out of his way yesterday to towncase you and me is a townier approach. He wants to get all of his thoughts out there, he wants to fully explain all facets of his reasoning, and that includes both why Meg was scum and also why everyone else was town. That's also dangerous to do as scum knowing that he will end up in a 3p elo with the two people he just towncased -- he has to reverse his position on both of us, and he has to hope that his cases weren't convincing enough for us to townread each other.

And on the other hand, when I asked you to expand on why you were confident calling Datisi town, you went and found a bunch of reasons why he could be scum, and you never went into detail on why Meg's play was towny. It's believable that you could do that as town (i don't at all mean to say you're scummy for not being confident on Datisi town, since that is a very reasonable position, to be clear), but I think that the play does benefit you if you're scum, moreso than Datisi's play yesterday benefits him.

i don't really particularly agree

i think it's easier to find arguments for why people are town when you are coming from a place of perfect knowledge and know that your reasons are accurate and you can aways position yourself as being correct. i think i did this a lot in my scumgame

it also really doesnt matter cuz of course you have to go back on it the next day but no one will really care at all, ive never seen anyone get voted for pushing someone they were formerly townreadign at aelo. its easy to frame as re-evaluation


whereas as town you always have a layer of doubt and uncertainty. i didnt *know* meg was town. i didnt *know* datisi was town, and in fact when you asked me about the read and i went back i found my reasons werent as strong as i thought.

i think that in and of itself is very likely my strongest towntell this game, actually - you asked me about a townread i had, i went back and tried to find reasons for it, and i realized those reasons were not as strong as i previously thought. that is because my analysis of the game is *real evaluation* and i have to shape my thoughts based on the information presented in the thread. as scum when you have information on peoples alignments you are ultimately working backwards - you start off knowing someone is town and then have to find reasons for it. i think if that were the case id be able to find a lot more confident reasons for a townread than what i did

[scamper]

like, put yourself in these shoes for a minut: imagine i am town, and you are town


is scumtisi actually feeling threatened right now? at all? b/c objectively speaking, if he is scum, i dont think townreading both of us was actually dangerous at all

[Coral]

well you did say yesterday that you were snapvoting datisi in elo

I know none of us really thought that would happen but he probably still would feel a little threatened by that

[Coral]

I'll think about your other points

[scamper]

ishould also say: i was strongly scumreading you dy 2 based on phoenix associations and the fact that you had seemingly receded into the background the longer the day went on. i ultimately relented on xayah but i thought if it wasnt xayah it was you. that carried over into day 3 and i think my immediate reaction at the reveal was a kneejerk dislike - i disliked that there was this hidden info being kept out of sight from me, i dislike hoods in general, my immediate reaction to your claim was that it was outlandish.

i think when i have a ml i tend to be more cavalier with how i treat my readscuz if i have a target i wanna see them flip. and i was fixated on the idea of scum!coral to the extent that i wasnt able to take in and process new information properly. but i have to come in here and *consider* the possibility of town!coral and whether the claim is one mafia would actually make b/c i reread ausukas reasoning from yesterday about how your claim is a strange one to plan asmafia and i am letting it sink in

[scamper]

well you did say yesterday that you were snapvoting datisi in elo

I know none of us really thought that would happen but he probably still would feel a little threatened by that

i mean, i thought i made it pretty clear i relented on that and i feel like thats still kind of beside the point...

[Coral]

Hi! Checking in to say that I won't be around much at all tomorrow. I don't think I have any new opinions right now. I guess the only thing would be that I'm more and more thinking that it could just be Galron, as nearly everyone else seems to be achieving some level of towntelling.

My guess would be that it's one of Galron or Xayah but not both, alongside... Don or Datisi? I haven't thought about that too much but it feels reasonable

these posts edge toward galron being scum without directly pushing him, right as datisi is moving toward pressuring galron and the thread is starting to turn against him. it looks like your classic progression toward being willing to bus. 765 and 909 follow up on that.

but it feels very inorganic? the idea that he suddenly leapfrogged ahead of don/xayah in her eads and that *everyone* else is towntelling isnt really expanded upon, she just says it. its like she realized that was the only wagon likely to go through and had to position herself for it

i would like to see coral comment specifically on this post

as for the rest, i wanna reread some of it in context, and i gotta go get ready for work so i'll do that after i'm home tonight

I assume you're mostly asking about why I felt that other people were towntelling? I have an analysis of day 1 that I want to do in a bit, but I will also point out here that I don't think that Galron was at all the only wagon likely to go through at this point. A lot of people had their attention elsewhere. I don't think it's accurate to say that this was "right as the thread was turning against him".

My previous statement of my overall read on the game was 279. In there, I had Xayah and Don as the scummiest, then Ari and scamper, then maybe Galron, maybe Datisi.

In 476 I point out a reason I felt Ari was towny. She then became obvious town shortly after, as her argument with Meg was pretty recent, prior to my 595.

In 489 and 494, I respond to Don's wallpost about his mechanical speculation. In general I thought his mindset here was mostly towny, and some of the ways in which his reads shifted felt like they didn't make sense to me as scum. The continued consistency of effort also made me feel like I didn't really have as much interest in eliminating him over someone who wasn't doing anything, in Galron.

I thought at the time that scamper's handling of Ari vs Meg was towny, and that generally there were what I felt were towntells for them in that section of posting. I go into this a bit in 795.

I don't think there was really anything that I felt was especially towny from you in that part of the thread, but you were at least efforting and I didn't really have a lot of interest in pushing for your elimination day 1.

So that was why I felt like a lot of the people who were kind of in the middle section of my reads all rose up to feeling more town. And while I wasn't confident in calling all of them town, since some of them could be partnered with Galron/Xayah (as I mentioned at the time, Datisi or Don seemed still possible to me), I much preferred to just elim the people that I felt were still actively scummy first.

The two remaining were Xayah and Galron. I also, knowing Ausuka was town, felt a bit of inclination to trust her more than others, and she wanted a Galron elim most.

[Coral]

Oops, 765, not 795.

[Coral]

well you did say yesterday that you were snapvoting datisi in elo

I know none of us really thought that would happen but he probably still would feel a little threatened by that

i mean, i thought i made it pretty clear i relented on that and i feel like thats still kind of beside the point...

you did now, but we're talking about his towncases from yesterday, right? I don't know, i just think that it's pretty believable to me in general that he would as scum be worried about one of us finding the other as town and turning on him

[scamper]

The differences (and ones that I think are town-indicative) are that here I didn't really make any efforts to Be Towny and create a strong presence, or push strongly for any town eliminations. And although you can't exactly trust me when I say that I would avoid repeating the same pattern of weak partner interactions and weak positioning surrounding their wagon... I most certainly would.

Day 2 and onward I cared more about trying to solve things with Ausuka than about performing for the main thread, which I don't think would really benefit me as scum beyond the fact that I get to say this now.

okay, thanks for explaining. i'm not sure how convincing it is necessarily because "i wasn't trying to be towny" is wifom-y and you can often say youd like to do things better but executing on them is hard. however i respect where you're coming from with this and it at least makes some sense to me. its not easy without a baseline town game to compare to but nothing that can be done about that

(its also kind of hard to have better partner interactions when for the most part that slot wasn't really playing the game. but again thats not really a point against anyone in particular)


i guess i should say one of my issues with you this game in particular you have asked me why i townread someone and went "sorry, tats not convincing" and it times to me it felt like scum false curiosity, where you ask a question about someones townread knowing you are always going to shoot it down, because you need to ml townies to win and so you arent *really* interested. that is kind of how i have felt about you this game. again this isnt really anything you can respond to fairly, and im not expecting or asking you to. im laying out the thought i had, to try to be more transparent.

[Coral]

he has also read the hood and seen that since night 1 even, I was considering who was more likely to be scum between you two, and that for the majority of the game i was leaning towards that being datisi

[Coral]

i guess i should say one of my issues with you this game in particular you have asked me why i townread someone and went "sorry, tats not convincing" and it times to me it felt like scum false curiosity, where you ask a question about someones townread knowing you are always going to shoot it down, because you need to ml townies to win and so you arent *really* interested. that is kind of how i have felt about you this game. again this isnt really anything you can respond to fairly, and im not expecting or asking you to. im laying out the thought i had, to try to be more transparent.

If I'm remembering those interactions correctly (I think it happened twice), from my perspective you gave a little one or two sentence summary of reasons that you had already stated, when the point of me asking was that I had already read your previous reasoning and I wanted to hear more. So me responding with "that's not convincing" wasn't intended to shoot you down, it was intended to prod you to go more in depth.

[scamper]

well you did say yesterday that you were snapvoting datisi in elo

I know none of us really thought that would happen but he probably still would feel a little threatened by that

i mean, i thought i made it pretty clear i relented on that and i feel like thats still kind of beside the point...

you did now, but we're talking about his towncases from yesterday, right? I don't know, i just think that it's pretty believable to me in general that he would as scum be worried about one of us finding the other as town and turning on him

okay, i did this yesterday

i am actually surprised this has become a point of contention so let me try to make myself clear. i made that post because i didnt like that my reads were getting shut don. that clearly upset ausuka and i felt bad about it, so i stepped away from making the emotion based play (voting dats immediately because no one would follow me on voting you all game) and agreed to be rational. i thought that progression was clear in these two posts:

UNVOTE:

Whatever

I feel like people are mad at my play right now but idk what to do

I'll come back when I'm in a better place and have time to think

i'm not mad, ftr

i just disagree with your reads

it happens in mafia games

maybe you are right and i am wrong, i hardly claim to be perfect

@ausuka - sorry if i came off as pissy, it wasnt my intention


i think a vote on meg today is basically a foregone conclusion. in the event that meg flips town, you are almost certainly going to die overnight. i feel as though the last scum is already planning to pivot against me in 3-way. my future sight has gifted me this vision. if you feel incredibly strongly about one of dats/coral being town, please talk to me about it. i promise to take it into consideration.

the fact that i basically told ausuka i was willing to listen to her logic for either of you being town is me leaving the door open to be persuaded. the threat of snapvoting was never real. it was just me being selfish for a moment in time. i thought that was pretty clear but both of you are treating it like it wasnt