Touhou: MitLoF ~ Makai Mix (Game Over)

[pieguyn]

this alchemist wagon definitely isn't towndriven

no shit

[pieguyn]

yesterday, when we were slow rolling our guilty, the guilty, mastin, Ankamius, and Om were all HARD DEFENDING Dan.

today, mastin, Ankamius, and Om are collectively defending each other. additionally, none of them have reevaluated in any way as a result of the Dan scumflip, despite hard defending him the previous day.

does anyone see the problem here?

[pieguyn]

^do not make me spam that until it gets addressed, because I will fucking do it. you don't even half to be awake to see there is something terribly wrong.

Alch was pushing all of them, all of whom were pushing him back. so yeah, it makes a LOT of sense mastin would walk in and start bussing Alch. it gives her the ammo she needs to carry her scum team through the rest of the game.

[pieguyn]

*even have to be half awake

Ank's defense of mastin is really bad and most of what he's saying is objectively wrong. also bad is the way he is pushing on a role that can basically be confirmed down the line.

[pieguyn]

the guilty

also this part of the first post shouldn't be there. I'm still not used to typing on this keyboard -.-

[pieguyn]

pedit: pie I like post-stringing, though
Alch is one of the few actual reads I have and I have him down as town
I'm not going to really consider him for scum unless mastin flips scum

tbh I get town vibes from Alch's ISO in a lot of places. I really want him to be town but I thought about it a lot and the possibility that makes the most sense is scum mastin bussing scum-Alch.

either way, I basically agree with you here

[pieguyn]

it's also extremely ironic that mastin is calling BOP out for "discrediting instead of exploring", when she is sitting there trying to ask me and Wisdom why we're still alive in order to discredit our reads. (and before anyone goes "lolnope that's not the same thing", I've basically admitted my reads until I did a reset on D3 were pretty bad, and DOAA was the designated kill N3, but regardless the fact is I didn't reset until D3)

[pieguyn]

can I just say "all of it"? because that's basically true

[pieguyn]

but anyway, has the Dan scumflip impacted your reads at all? if so, how?

[pieguyn]

er

you were defending Dan for a large majority of the game. then, on D3, you were pushing a beeboy lynch over an AD lynch. the bolded:

I'm okay with On now as well.

Beeboy is still a superior lynch to AD.

Getting townvibes from Mastin's posts, albeit with a note that this will change if she takes too long to do the ISOs she kept mentioning. However:

Mastin:

Did you respond to my amended post (the one you quoted was incomplete) or just the one you quoted?

is a direct appeal to get pressure off AD.

I guess you weren't exactly hard defending him, but the point is it was obvious you didn't want him lynched until he was basically confirmed as scum.

[pieguyn]

beeboy

well, Alch lynch, but the point is you were still pushing away from Dan

[pieguyn]

So my gut is objectively wrong?

yes
this is what you said:

Anyway mastin2's posts make me even less convinced that she's scum. Disregarding meta entirely, my gut doesn't detect any scum motivations behind any of her recent posts. Just looking at how she reacts to things doesn't look like scum panicking either. The way the wagon completely exploded on her as soon as the day started tingles me the wrong way on top of that.

mastin is STILL trying to act like she had reason to believe Dan was town, despite the fact that:

1. her reasoning was objectively wrong, and I had explained why several times that game day
2. said reasoning was proven wrong by virtue of Dan flipping scum.

you don't see any scum motivation in that? it's scum who doesn't want to make themselves look bad by admitting their reasoning was shit, so they try to convince everyone that they actually *did* believe it.

the 2nd point doesn't mean anything unless you show your work yourself, and the 3rd point does not make someone more likely to be town.

[pieguyn]

I don't get how this makes me more likely to be scum with Mastin than the ones that were all defending Dan and now each other.

it doesn't. I want to call you town, but if mastin is scum, her play yesterday re: you doesn't make much sense for scum lining up a mislynch. it does make sense as scum bussing strategically, though

[pieguyn]

Mastin's entire playstyle this game is basically saying shit that will just pile on more attention to her, and literally has not changed once from when she started posting to when she started getting pressure. That is such a ridiculous thing to argue that I have a hard time believing that it's scum-motivated. She had to have known at that point that most, if not all, of the reason that people were voting her was for that, so... continuing to defend it helps her... how?

it's exactly as I said

it makes her look like she actually did believe it. putting things in perspective, if you're town, the reaction you are having is exactly the reaction that statement was engineered to generate.

I'm not really sure how I can show my work with #2. The main gist is that the way she bullheaded against the accusation on her only to post reads with explanations, then claim setup shit on top of that doesn't look like scum pushed into a corner.

er

I don't see how this is even remotely a town trait. it might not be "scum backed into a corner", but that doesn't mean "town" at all; not everyone will cave in under pressure as scum, and I sure as hell wouldn't expect mastin would. all of her recent posts have been entirely null to me. why do you think this is more likely to come from town?

[pieguyn]

Are you sure you're not this person mastin: http://touhou.wikia.com/wiki/Ichirin_Kumoi

Anyway, idk mastin, i've been trying to get Nacho in here, it's pretty much impossible, and it's more frustrating that everyone just wants to get in touch with nacho, yeah i know he's THE nacho, but i exist too, but i always get dumped by my hydra partners anyway, i'm probably just too bothersome to play with, I probably won't hydra ever again, heck i don't know why I'm still playing mafia anyways, i should've quit when i said i was going to quit.

Getting frustrated by this situation + my situation offsite isnt doing anything good to lift my mood, everything i've been asked lately is all regarding nacho, i don't see why i should even bother playing here if im just gonna be just "there".

/hug

you're not at all bothersome to play with. me flaking on you was 100% my fault (a large part of it was the fact reinoe is legitimately fucking annoying no matter what my alignment is), and Nacho is afaik site-wide VLA. I really apologize if I gave you that impression by flaking > <///

you probably shouldn't be frustrated by mastin, though. she's just scum and there is a chance she could be calling attention that on purpose

[pieguyn]

mollie did the same thing tho, and outside of that no one's tried to interact with me ever since i went V/LA. Outside of asking me nacho related stuff... yeah... i probably shouldn't even be here anyways i dont even make a difference.

uh
I think you being V/LA is explicitly the reason no one tried to interact with you. it doesn't make much sense for someone to try and interact with someone who's V/LA. I don't think you should get the impression this is related to you, specifically.

also this is generally what happens in hydras. hell when ffery hydras with anyone they just call the hydra "ffery" a lot of the time

re: mastin: her thinking it was a Nacho bus is just because she's scum and not trying to figure out the game

who are your current scum reads?

[pieguyn]

Sakura, Saki, wanna flashlynch the fuck out of mastin with me?

I don't think she's even at L-2 anymore, sadly. (lol at how those names work together btw)

p-edit: @mastin, I can't wait until you actually get to the more recent posts and see the question I asked you, bc lololol

[pieguyn]

and we basically agree on those reads, fwiw. my and Wis' current working theory is that mastin-scum came in and tried to derail the lynch off Dan-scum onto Alch-scum, bc it would give her enough towncred (along with the UNZAN) thing to lead her scumteam to endgame.

[pieguyn]

simple answer is no
too early
a couple of things i would like to know are whether or not what mastin is saying is correct and can be proven by the mod and whether or not the unzan vote was on the alch wagon and whether or not the flavor makes sense
and I also just want a bit more contribution in general

aw ok ;w;

[pieguyn]

Assuming you're correct, do you think she would continue along this strategy when multiple people are seeing through it?

as opposed to what?

Yeah, I'd also expect scum to try to confuse the gamestate as much as possible if they're just going to go down anyway. If she ends up being lynched here and flips scum, all the obvious WIFOM she's bringing up becomes useless. The only way I can see it working out in her favor as well is if the primary accusation against her is false from the start and she ends up getting a free town lynch on the 'buddying' crowd. It's a massive stretch because it's one of those strategies that relies on town acting in a way that is more likely not to happen. That's a hell of a gambit that only wins by not being lynched, but it comes with the drawback that the reasoning comes right back up again later in the game if she gets nightkilled or one of the scumpartner accusees flips scum.

I just don't see how scum-mastin would be able to use this. At all.

I don't particularly think they consider the night-desperado inventor to be a major threat. they obviously have a scum doc on their team. there's no other explanation for Dan not dying when we shot him.

besides that, scum-mastin here would have a goal of not getting lynched. what is the best way to go about doing that? she needs to look town, no matter the cost; most of her recent posts are null because she does not *intend* on getting lynched. in this situation, either she's town and this huge clusterfuck is genuine, or she's scum faking her town behavior. I don't understand why you think her play here would look different from this if she was scum.

[pieguyn]

I'm waiting for you to finish catching up before proceeding, but L4D called re this:

The only. fucking. time. I go after a scumbuddy. Is when I have deemed them incompetent.

[pieguyn]

^that was under the assumption you are indeed scum, since the point was to figure out what Alch would be in that case. caaaaaaaarry on

[pieguyn]

I can't see the logic behind that. If all three of us were scum, with a sizable number already scumreading me, bussing me wouldn't have done much for her towncred if that was her goal. She could have just stayed on an AD wagon to blend in, then defend me the following day. There was already a sizeable wagon on me, so there wouldn't have been much towncred to gain if I flipped scum. The scenario of all three of us being scum doesn't even make sense, and I know it's wrong because I'm town.

I'm not particularly sure about this. I can't come up with any strategic reason why mastin would bus you over Dan, but at the same time I disagree she wouldn't gain towncred for bussing you. from what I remember, Dan was always the main wagon of the day and I remember most of the focus being on him already.

I also think I remember there being a dynamic that goes on between mastin/Dan - I'm not ~really~ sure about this, but meh. I don't know

[pieguyn]

Yeah. I'm quoting it.

jesus fucking christ. there's a reason I want to wait until you're done catching up before continuing any further. believe me, I'm trying to be more careful about the read this time around.

[pieguyn]

He would LAUGH at you.

that was referring specifically to what was in the quote (you saying you didn't care at all about the Dan read being wrong)

I asked this bc I straight up admit I can't read you. however, I know zmuffin can, and one of the things he said was typical from you-town is that if you misread someone, no one cares about it more than you do. the thing in that quote directly counteracted that, which is why I noted it.

[pieguyn]

Pretty sure I'm not. The 'Sara' in my PM is wearing one of those brown anime cloaks. The link you gave looks like a sprite version of Dreams's flip. Like I said, mine has a different wardrobe and blue eyes. Not pink eyes.

I guess you are Ichirin then. http://en.touhouwiki.net/wiki/Ichirin_Kumoi

that's weird. wanna see what GIF says here

[pieguyn]

It could easily be because my brain is a hair's breadth away from just cutting the string and putting me the fuck out for the night, but I literally read that paragraph about 20 times and it still looks like you're trying to piece three different points together and I don't see the connections.

I might be misinterpreting your point but it looked like you were working under the assumption mastin would have given up by now on not being lynched. I disagree with that. if she ~is~ scum here, she needs to make some sort of play in order to win, given like half the players are cleared and/or obvious town. so I could potentially see her going all-in on not getting lynched this game day. it would be plausible if they can get enough mislynches, and they don't have to worry about getting killed at night bc they have a scum doc.

I really need to think about this read more, which will come later bc I have to go really soon

[pieguyn]

I have to go now but really quick, if you're supposedly so easy to read, how should I go about reading you? what is the major thing I am missing in your posts this game that I have never been able to find all this time?

I'm asking this bc I feel like everything you post comes off alignment neutral to me, but while sitting there watching basically that entire catchup I want to hope you're town. I don't want to make the same mistake again this game. (there's still some more things I wanna ask but not atm)

[pieguyn]

I'm so fucking confused right now.

@mastin: I think your catchup looks genuine, but I fucking hate reading people because "lol this seems genuine", since it literally never works for me and my genuineness radar is very bad - every time I think something is genuine, it is always coming from scum. in addition, I feel like it would just be really shit to fake all that anger is scum, and I don't particularly think you would *actually* lie in regard to your reaction to Dan.

but like, here's the problem I'm having. here's my current reads

TOWN (S->W):

Curiosity, beeboy

<gap> purple, Sakura, mollie <gap> Saki, Gaiden
{Time, BOP, Alchemist, beast, Om, Ankamius, mastin}

I would bet the game on all 3 of my next townreads being town, I think Saki looks very town, and unlike half the ppl in this game I'm actually taking Sakura's Gaiden read into consideration and I'm finding myself agreeing with it. I also think Time is more likely than not town but I'm not exactly sure. there are really only so many people left who can be scum and if you're town there's almost certainly 5 scum total in this game.

moreover, if you are town, I don't get why the rest of my POE reads seem to be completely avoiding you. both Om and Ank put you as town when they could have put you as scum. like, what the fuck am I supposed to do with that? why would they just completely pass up a mislynch opportunity, especially in this situation where they need as many as possible? it makes absolutely no fucking sense unless Alch is also town (and if you are town, I want to believe Alch is town too because so many things he did just ring town for me)

so I really don't know what to do

like, I am not open for the possiblity of Gaiden being scum at this point. the Gaiden scumread is just a huge distraction. who do you think it could be otherwise? part of the reason behind this is just sheer POE at this point bc I'm having a lot of trouble figuring out how this game makes sense if you're town. if you're town here, I need you to help me come up with something that makes sense.

how sure are you on your Om townread? because I never have any faith at all with "this guy is thinking the same way I am -> town" - I keep thinking back to the first time I played with zmuffin and Cephrir and wound up townreading them for basically the same reason you townread Om. do you have experience with Om or something?

[pieguyn]

vote: Om

[pieguyn]

I could potentially see that if you swap out Alchemist for Om. any scum team in this current situation is going to get POE'd out really fast and I don't even get what the fuck the point is in eliminating mastin from contention, given there was nothing forcing Om/Ank to do so.

also I need to reread BOP

[pieguyn]

I'm really not happy with BOP actually

I'm also wondering where the fuck PV is

[pieguyn]

hmmm
i'm thinking titus is scum.

why?

[pieguyn]

vote: Om

we've got a wagon going on alch, love

no, you are missing the point

if mastin is town, Alch is too. the scumteam has no reason to commit to not lynching mastin in this scenario, especially when the alternative is bussing Alch. they just fucking don't. so if mastin is town, the most likely explanation is that both mastin and Alch are town and they're just taking full advantage of the shitstorm that's going on.

what's your read on Bop?

[pieguyn]

If there is something I've learned from skype mafia with titus, it's that if she isn't death tunnelling, then she isn't town.
i'm required to act under this assumption for the same reason that any non-POE scum hunt from ns means that ns is scum.

tbh the more I look through BOP's ISO the more I agree with the conclusion, I just wanted you to post your reason :p

I think that'll work, Mastins kinda gotten me to rethink my Om read but I'm thinking time. I understand he's the creator and such of our world, but I don't understand why he hasn't been killed yet

why would Time get killed here, quite literally, ever?

[pieguyn]

god fucking damn it can we quit calling Gaiden scum for once this game? Sakura's proven she can read him, and there's a fucking reason I'm agreeing with her on that read.

[pieguyn]

Om is also defending mastin

@Mara: both of the things you are saying are wrong. Time isn't confirmed anything. only his flavor is confirmed and that is alignment irrelevant. also, the entire fucking point of a town read is that I am feeling relatively sure that person is not scum, so saying "it's a weaker read" doesn't mean anything.

[pieguyn]

and even if they *were* confirmed town

Jingle had a confirmable role and was actually doing shit, and DOAA was the designated kill last night, so there is still no reason to kill them. I think you're on the wrong track with this angle.

p-edit: can we do this then?

vote: BOP

[pieguyn]

that feels way too easy

I'm not ruling it out by any means, but just based on reads I think the other way is more plausible

[pieguyn]

it just does. since when were there ever ~actually~ scumteams that consisted entirely of lurkers + easy targets? generally when you think that, it's bc either scum is setting it up that way or you're not reading into the game enough.

like, I'm aware this means nothing by itself since it's just gut, but based on reads I think the other way is more likely

[pieguyn]

also hint: Alch pushing the Time = IC is one of the things I liked most about his play

[pieguyn]

no shit, what I'm saying is I don't feel optimistic about Alch or Time being scum, and I don't like either Om or Ank's play

I think we're just going in circles here

[pieguyn]

yo Anti & Sakura, what do you think of mastin's catchup?

[pieguyn]

Haven't paid much attention orz too busy with stuff can you link it?

if you don't have the time don't feel under any obligation to look, I'm just asking cos I'm really unsure about it. it's everything starting from 5268

[pieguyn]

i'm too sad and too drunk to look or think righ tnow

/hug
idk what you're sad about but whatever it is I hope it gets better soon

[pieguyn]

pieguyn <- mason, claimed it D2

Saki <- if lynched, all night kills the next night fail

Curiosity <- mason, claimed it D2. received a 1-shot night desperado for use N2, shot Dan, nothing happened. received another one on N3, shot mastin, but it didn't work bc got roleblocked via purple's role.

purple hero <- backup, inherited NS's role N1 (transformer), picked up DOAA's role N2, gatekept Curiosity N3
Time <- captain (has 1-shot inspect, track, self-bodyguard) to Jingle, ordered Jingle to inspect Curiosity N1, did nothing N2
mastin2 <- the UNZAN doublevoter

beeboy <- lone neighbor with a flipped scum (and thus conftown)

pirate mollie/St. Constantine the Hermit
SXTLHGaiden
Mononoke
beastcharizard
BOP
Om of the Nom
Alchemist21
Ankamius

Jakuzure <- compulsive fruit vendor, targeted Gaiden N1
notscience <- http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 9#p6319109
DOAA <- gatekeeper. roleblocks a person and also makes any night actions involving them fail (including kills), basically a jailkeeper. gatekept me N1 and me N2, dunno what he did N3
Jingle <- http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 3#p6346863

from this, we know
1. there's a scum doc on the scumteam, since there's no other way Dan didn't die
2. there's someone in this game who can give out night desperado shots

should be accurate. someone let me know if I fucked up somewheree

[pieguyn]

also now that I think about it, if I am right about there being a scum doc, and if it protected Dan, I wanna say it makes haj town. haj was the most obvious vig shot in the history of mafia after the fake guilty D2, so said scum doc would almost certainly protect him over Dan if he was scum.

[pieguyn]

you don't need to trouble yourself with my bullshit pie

so.....what's going on now?

/hug

mastin made a catchup that spanned like 10 pages. I want to say it looks genuine and at this point if she's scum she faked a shitton of anger which would just be really low. however, I hate writing people off for genuine sounding posts bc my genuineness radar sucks ass and most of the time if I think something is genuine it's coming from scum, sooooooo yeah

atm I'm trying to figure out how this game might make sense with mastin-town and there's a few possibilities; I think Alch is prob town so we're wagoning BOP instead

[pieguyn]

I think it's genuine, pie

do you have anything specific you can point to, or is it just a general feeling?

[pieguyn]

fwiw I also endorse every single one of Anti's points about Om. he keeps being on wagons and then jumping off them when they're about to go through to a lynch.

I might go through some things in Titus' posts I disliked when I'm not 95% asleep, but she's primarily scum just via sheer POE if you accept mastin is town

I'm 100% ok with an Om lynch if anyone wants to switch

[pieguyn]

Read it, mastin felt very genuine there and her tone was pretty different than what I know of her scum game.

btw, I don't know how to read mastin, but I do know that if anyone is saying this it means mastin is town

[pieguyn]

I legitimately don't know why the hell everyone is exclusively blaming Wisdom for this game. I've fucked up as much as, if not more, than he has
and I'm about to faint any second now

[pieguyn]

last post before sleep

I don't think they intentionally killed Jingle. That would be crazy. Prolly he was made to bodyguard the target

~Wis

In this scenario what alignment to you think the person directing her was?

I don't see anything remarkably different between this game's gaiden and last game's gaiden.

@pie jingle town doesnt mean time town. Such a role could also be scum.

you're missing the point

in order for Jingle to be the scum nightkill, they wouldn't have known he wasn't actually an investigative role. if Time was scum, they would have known what abilities Jingle had. then they would have decided to kill notsci over Jingle N1 for some unexplained reason, and then wait until N2 to kill him instead. what's the conclusion?

in this case what's the probability a scum time who controls jingle knows that it's jingle he controls.

Sure... but N1?

Mollie did I really trick you in to claiming masons with me f2f . good times if so ^_^.

@Pie. I didn't really "take a shit" on Mono's read. I offered my own opinion challenging hers or else taking one contrary to hers. I don't believe I should be required to agree with her / subvert my own opinion for hers when I don't see what she sees, and what difference she saw wasn't given as of yet.

one thing I picked up is that Dan was sitting there trying to discredit the townreads on Time when Time claimed. it's basically the same thing I called him out for doing to Gaiden (those posts are included for posterity) - if you look it's basically the same interaction

I suppose it's not entirely implausible he could do this to a partner, but I am taking it as evidence Time is more town than not, similarly to Gaiden

[pieguyn]

<3 Om
but still

[pieguyn]

I lied

beast was pushing Dan back on D1. there was also that Alch push for "policy for that mess up" (which Ank attacked) and he also pushed Om. might take a look at his meta re: bussing sometime later

[pieguyn]

or we can lynch Ank for constantly pushing lurkers in spite of the fact I'm pulling up a bunch of evidence to the contrary

[pieguyn]

lmfao. you are kidding me, right

but if lurkers are not exempt from being scummy, what's your read on beast?

[pieguyn]

I'm really not sure how to articulate a lot of the scum vibes I'm getting from BOP, but most of it is there's a distinct lack of town motivation in her posting. town Titus sometimes doesn't make sense, but you can at least figure out what she's trying to accomplish and get done in the game. I'm not seeing that at all from her this game. her play this game looks more like she's arguing over irrelevant things for the sake of it, as opposed to doing anything she perceives as useful.

like, the way she handled the desperado thing:

Spoiler:

Mod: Could a doctor heal a hypothetical death from a Desperado claim?

Pie, if a doctor cannot stop a desperado attempt from the attacker (Curiosity) then how could a scum doctor heal Action Dan?

Mod: Could a doctor heal a hypothetical death from a Desperado claim?

Pie, if a doctor cannot stop a desperado attempt from the attacker (Curiosity) then how could a scum doctor heal Action Dan?

ARE YOU FUCKING SERIOUS?

THE DESPERADO KILL ITSELF IS A STANDARD FUCKING KILL. OF COURSE A DOCTOR CAN SAVE FROM IT.

Which is it? It can heal or it can't.

http://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?tit ... ado_(Role)

The wiki seems to state that the Desperado's victim is just as vulnerable as the attacker and vice versa. There is no "nothing can stop it" at all.


Pie, your case depends on assuming 1 DOAA is scum and scumclaimed AND no town doctor healed conftown...Cool your jets.


Mollie, we can take a look at Curiosity tomorrow. I don't think he's conftown but I don't think we are tearing through that facade today. I tried that shit before in InuYasha mafia. Tearing apart bullshit conftowns is nearly impossible but I'll need your help to do it.

A Desperado is a role that targets a player during the day in-thread to perform the following action on. If the target is scum (mafia), then their target is killed. If not, they die in a valiant "desperado" attempt.

That's the entire wiki text for desperado that's explaining the role.

It doesn't say "docs cannot heal".

and there still can't be a fucking doc on top of a gatekeeper and 1x bodyguard anyway. there is just no way in hell

ofc, mastin and/or Ank will mist over this by calling DOAA scum

You've said this is role madness... so you're excluding a doctor... and the possibility of a scum roleblocker or appropriate counterbalancing power. Really? *smack*

Just stop tunnelling reset.

Mod: Could a doctor heal a hypothetical death from a Desperado claim?

Pie, if a doctor cannot stop a desperado attempt from the attacker (Curiosity) then how could a scum doctor heal Action Dan?

A doc can protect the person who is shot by the desperado. They can't protect the desperado from passively dying when they shoot town. The two are different.

~Wis

The wiki makes no such distinction. I literally just had that discussion with Pie and quoted it.

first off, I think I made it pretty clear I was distinguishing between the desperado's kill and the passive death when they attempt to shoot town. her first post:

Which is it? It can heal or it can't.

seems like a very unnatural continuation in a situation where it's obvious we're misinterpreting each other, and I don't understand where she was even going with this question.

but then the way she continued this was even worse. she sits there and insists that it works a certain way just because the wiki doesn't state otherwise. like, WTF? town Titus sometimes uses moonlogic, but she's not outright dense like she is here. (and yes, I'm aware there wasn't enough information available at that point to draw the conclusion desperado wouldn't *necessarily* die upon shooting town, but the wiki is not at all how one would arrive at that conclusion)

overall, I think the best motivation for this exchange is to appear like she's being helpful and actually trying to think through it rationally, without actually doing so. this is typical scum behavior - she's sitting there trying to escalate the conflict that's going on (e.g. with the first post), while trying to appear like she is actually stepping back and considering all the possibilities.

Can y'all seriously slow down on the rate of posting?

Did no one else notice Saki on the posting of her supposed role pm and having zero action taken? That means it must be fake.

I didn't like this either; the first line doesn't really accomplish anything, and I think the best motivation for posting that was, again, to show off how pro-town she is trying to get ppl to stop spamming, without doing anything that actually has town motivation. there's also a kind of "seeking approval" mindset here with the last line that I think is more likely to come from scum than town.

stuff like this basically continues throughout her entire ISO. actually, looking at it from the top, there is a distinct lack of scumhunting, full stop - there's not really much of her giving and pushing her opinions, or attempting to extract information from players - it's all setup spec (which itself is null, but the point here is there is a lack of *actual* scumhunting) and weak lines of questioning that never ~actually~ lead anywhere, similar to the ones I just pointed out. I also think Sakura has a point about PV who is usually a giant lurkfuck as scum (which is what he's doing here) whereas he's generally obvious town as town.

sooooo yeah. I could expand more on this but there's really not much of a point in going through her entire ISO. Mala has a meta townread on Titus which is making me confused as hell bc my scumread here is somewhat based on meta, but I figure I might as well post this anyway .-.

[pieguyn]

oh, and the other thing which I just realized while falling asleep last night

there's a scum doc on the scumteam. Time had a self-bodyguard. am I the only one who doubts both of those roles would be on the same scumteam?

[pieguyn]

I wasn't expecting everyone to blatantly sheep that case. usually when people do that it means I'm wrong -.-

in case I die, my town reads haven't changed. willing to bet at most 1 scum outside this list:

{Ankamius, Om, beast, Alchemist, mastin, Time}

^ listed most-> least likely scum.

[pieguyn]

~if~ BOP flips town, uh, I honestly don't know what to say

I'd take another look at purple, but since I think they're town anyway, that about it. it'd obv also implicate Alch and Ank.

[pieguyn]

riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiip

yall have no idea how paranoid I got in the mason QT last night bc I thought this felt way too easy

@Anti: the only reservation I have for mastin-scum is that she would have faked a shitton of anger if she was. I don't think anything she did is particularly unfakeable, I just don't think that's something she'd even think about faking. I'm also wondering why the scum doc doc'ed Dan over her N2 (although I guess there are possible alternate explanations for that). but this is getting almost ridiculous and I'm inclined to agree with you at this point

[pieguyn]

looking through this and a few things

@Anti: for that quote you pulled up, keep in mind (iirc, correct me if I'm wrong) basically all of her VCA that she did to get those reads was based on the incorrect assumption of Dan being town. when that happens, it's not hard to get entirely ass backwards reads solely via VCA, given she completely swapped the town and scum wagons around and so she would have swapped the compositions around too.

I'm also not sure (given mastin/Om team) why the hell mastin would completely derail the Dan lynch in favor of Alch and then proceed to bus BOP. she would have lost all her cred by going about it that way; bussing BOP from the get go would be more optimal.

I wanna reread her BOP push and make sure I got the timing of this right. I also absolutely hate the fact she's shut down and done jack fuck recently (even taking weekend VLA into account).

oh also Wisdom pointed this out in the mason QT. remember when beast was hunting for 3rd parties? he thought it could be bc he knew there was a doc on the scumteam. I'll go through sometime later and get all the reads they had in order but their reads and mine were basically the same.

[pieguyn]

hey mastin

1. are you really that sure Alch was scum? think about it from a purely objective POV.

2. you were interested in why Jingle died, right? I figured out one possible reason. let's assume Time town for the sake of this argument. now, note Jingle crumbed an inno at the start of D2, and had expressed suspicions of several players throughout that game day. what's the conclusion?

[pieguyn]

anyway

vote: Om

[pieguyn]

oh, the other thing

@purple, just out of curiosity, how OK would you be with a beast lynch right now? I don't remember what your read on him was but I'm finding him likely scum just via POE if it's not mastin/Om.

[pieguyn]

like here's my problem with seeing mastin-scum here

I have no fucking idea how she plans on winning this game if she actually is scum. like, she replaced in and then megaderailed the lynch off her partner. WTF was she trying to do there? it doesn't make any sense unless Alch was also scum with her. and on top of that, part of the reason I scumread her when she replaced in was bc I thought she was trying to discredit my Sakura read in order to knock her out of the town block, but then she proceeded to completely forget about that and agree there was no reason to doubt the town read there, and instead her reads ended up being very similar to mine.

so like

I want to say Om/beast or some other lurkaderp makes more sense. but at the same time I think part of me just wants mastin to be town this game bc I've misread her the past like 3 or 4 times @_@

p-edit: @Anti

[pieguyn]

also I still think Gaiden is town but at this point I'm worrying about the possibility he was able to break his meta. although the Dan interactions are another thing that points to him being town here

[pieguyn]

Curiosity reads:

-Wis agreed with me scum doc would protect haj over Dan N2
-Mala isn't actually 100% on Sakura town
-BOP interacted a little with Om, nothing with Ank or beast
-NPIAU didn't interact with any of them
-Wis agreed with me on Alch town
-Constantine acts scummy and annoying regardless of what his alignment is
-the thing I mentioned earlier (Wis thought beast 3rd party hunting was bc knowledge of doc on scumteam)
-they could potentially buy Saki scum if it came down to it
-overall they had Ank, Om, beast scum, the same as me

points 3, 4 are especially notable

[pieguyn]

yo can i just ask what my town filp would imply
bc its gonna happen

my POE pool was basically {mastin, Saki, purple, Om, beast,

Ank

} so I'd look in there

it struck me overnight Saki's role is basically a role that would punish scum for getting a successful mislynch in. this is coming from the same mod who yelled at me after a game where I used Town Restless Spirit bc it had that same effect. but I'm not sure if that means anything

believe it or not, I am being a paranoid fuck right now and think there is a nonzero chance purple is scum. their ISO is legitimately town motivated, but if you discount that and try to hypothetically look at their actions from a scum POV, there's a lot of things that actually make sense: pushing Dan/NPIAU but finding reasons not to vote either of them when in danger of lynch until D3, saying a "universal townread" was scum but ignoring beast, them trying to argue against my Sakura read, saying the desperado inventor (lol lolol) was scum which could have served from stopping a potential addition to the town block. most importantly, they said back on D3 they had no idea how MS could have thought I was 3rd party, when if they knew he was a jailkeeper, it should have been fucking obvious - especially when they had referenced assumptions about the setup

however at the end of the day I am still fairly sure of them being town. in addition to all the town stuff they did which that analysis is blatantly ignoring, ~if~ Alch is town here, I firmly believe them derailing the Alch lynch D3 fits beyond the realm of fakeability no matter how high I set it bc there's just no reason for scum to even think about doing that. Curiosity also thought the way Mara tried to get them off mastin D4 was relatively unfakeable.

if they are, it's with beast btw, which I guess now that Ank flipped 3rd scum means they're town anyway

the scenario I was paranoid of was one where the entire Ank/you/mastin clusterfuck was all town and scum were capitalizing on it and I wound up with something like {purple, Saki, beast}, but it's obviously a moot point now.

[pieguyn]

btw I forgot this from the QT: NPIAU's 2513, 2556, 2568 point towards haj/mastin town I think - I remember liking this argument a lot when I read it. and I'm also not sure if it makes sense for scum to bus here (although it did come after haj lolhammered back on D1)

[pieguyn]

I've been reading through Ikaruga and the anti there and the anti here are completely different

wasn't Anti town in that game? @_@

p-edit: why not? I agree he's more likely town via play but I'm not that sure about it.

[pieguyn]

also the entire point of thinking about it in the way that I did was that it makes meta completely irrelevant

if Anti is scum here, he broke all his meta. but flipping that around, if he did break all his meta, no one will ever catch him unless they just disregard meta entirely

I 100% agree Anti is prob town, but I at least wanna look at it from a few different angles.

[pieguyn]

oh also I don't want day to end until I put out my latest reasoning for Alch/DGB-town which will have to wait until mastin answers my question bc I'm going somewhere with it and don't wanna reveal what it is

[pieguyn]

PEDIT: No anti was part of the necromancer mastin scumhydra and he had a wildly different playstyle and tone imo

idk man the claim out of nowhere seems legitimate and the tone of posts and logical progressions all seem natural and just the way he has slowly progressed to producing more and more content as the game goes by seems quite good to me

it says on there DGB replaced Necromancers and then DGB was VT and got endgamed o.o

if one of mastin/DGB is scum I'd def say mastin, mostly bc what I got on Alch is practically trust tell level, and mastin makes a shitton more sense as scum based on the way she defended Dan and to some extent Ank. I still don't think she makes much sense as mafia, but if we're comparing the two I'd pick her. tis basically why I'm starting to think I went wrong somewhere. I generally like Saki's play this game but overall I get the least amount of unfakeable stuff from him as opposed to the rest of my townreads.

[pieguyn]

ebwop: I potentially think if it came down to it I could see him making that kind of claim as scum especially if that's what his actual role is. and I don't see anything wrong with the posts he did make, but at the same time, again, if it came down to it it's not 100% unfakeable

[pieguyn]

Why are you grasping at straws to find a reason to scumread someone.

where do you think he was grasping at straws? I don't particularly have any problems with his recent posts, actually. although that might just be bc I'm still awake at 8 fucking AM -.-

also, what are your thoughts on Saki?

[pieguyn]

ok i guess ths means purple scum is more likely then bc i see a clear difference between the two games in anti

@_@

what difference are you seeing?

[pieguyn]

5759

well yeah, I just don't know what you're referring to in that post. (and if it's the beast reasoning I don't think it's grasping at straws, I thought it made sense. what didn't you like about it?)

ok so like
anti in ikaruga felt way more aggressive and fighting for his lynches and this game he feels way more passive
and i think it kinda looks the same but it feels different to me
i dont get the same impression from reading his posts there than i do here
maybe thats just something only im seeing?

idk its fucking 2am and i want to shoot myself for making tthat mistake earlier fuck

this actually makes a lot of sense

moreover, I'm looking through here and I can def see what you're picking up on

I tend not to use meta in this way unless there's a scum game where he acted similarly, and I do think they've been aggressive in pushing reads at various points (e.g. off the top of my head, you. I also feel like he was p aggressive in pushing stances back on like D1/D2, like the way he called out the Jingle wagon as a town wagon and pushed Ank and NPIAU over it), so I'm not exactly sure if his play here comes from a different motivation

[pieguyn]

I almost want to call Om town for this. I'm not sure in what universe scum would bother inventing this whole thing about thinking Anti was scum when it's likely no one would listen anyway, and then responding to Sakura's suspicion of him framing Anti by......... flip flopping and calling Anti scum anyway. the alternative, that he's town and believes this, is more believable. it's also obvious he at least did read through parts of that game and find a difference in Anti's play, whether it means anything or not.

does anyone want to lynch beast instead?

[pieguyn]

like, that just seems like a weird thing to even do

I kind of feel like it really is just {beast, Saki}. it's not a 100% tell but it's enough to at least move him up a bit. I suppose it's possible he thought to fake this as scum, but meh

[pieguyn]

yeah. I'll think about it later bc holy fuck I'm still awake at 9 AM. if DGB is town, who'd be your choice for last scum?

[pieguyn]

shitty meta dive = town?????????

if he really wanted to put all the stock into meta, i would think he'd want to know more about what mastin's talking about when she said she knew i was town in half a dozen posts

fair enough. I really shouldn't try and play mafia at like 9 AM with no sleep. paranoia is too op

[pieguyn]

I'm getting this feeling that I don't even know what I'm dong anymore, I feel as if this game has lasted for ages and I can barely remember much of it, moreover im not even sure if i'm enjoying playing this at all compared to what i'm doing offsite, should i try to get back in gear here or should i just exit...

orz. plz stay

[pieguyn]

Maybe-PR-killed, maybe killed-for-suspicions?

You're not exactly being clear, here.

OK

I don't think they would kill Jingle just for having an investigative PR. I think there was more to it than that. he had expressed suspicion on Dan and NPIAU that day based on the way my wagon happened. his other suspects were Om, Alch, and beast and he was also for lynching haj/you-slot. then this reads list:

pirate mollie

Ankamius
ActionDan

nopointinactingup

Om of the Nom

given his reads were really accurate and none of them had flipped at that point, I think it's very possible they killed him for the express purpose that they thought he was an investigative PR _and_ that they were worried about him getting a result on one of them. the thing with this is I'm not sure if one of {Om, beast} being scum on top of those 3 would be necessary in order for that to work.

---

anyway, on Alch. I'm going to blow the whistle on his replace out, even though I feel like shit doing it, but if I'm doing this right I think the way he replaced out was game-breaking levels of town, mostly wrt the modkill. let's think about how this would have gone if he was scum here:

1. he replaces out for whatever reason and tries to chalk it as "being too far behind"
2. GIF doesn't find a replacement
3. GIF threatens to modkill the slot
4. Alch doesn't come back.

now, if he was scum, his excuse about being too far behind is fake, and he's posting elsewhere on site. so there is literally nothing stopping him from just coming back to the QT and continuing to play as he normally was; plus if he actually was behind his partners could have helped him to catch up. additionally, a modkill for scum is INFINITELY worse in this situation than a modkill for town in this situation. he would not have risked his slot being modkilled if he was scum here, when he could have just as easily continued playing. the alternative (that he's town and legitimately was behind) makes this work a hell of a lot better.

I feel like shit doing this bc I feel like stuff like this is always telling but no one admits to it. Wis also agreed with this, fwiw.

[pieguyn]

also I swear to god, I really don't see mastin's play this game day making much sense as mafia. I'm thinking back to the one game I had where mastin actually *was* scum and her "reads" in that game were overall pretty shit and blatantly manipulative. I get the exact opposite vibe from her recent posts, it doesn't feel like she's trying to spread any doubt or discredit anyone at all. that plus then when she did have a scum read (beast), I liked the progression on it a lot (I will not elaborate on this). but hell what do I know

[pieguyn]

I'm dying tonight and I still don't have a good enough view of this game. I'd rather do everything I can before day ends in order to make it clear who the scum is, as opposed to dying silently.

[pieguyn]

i lol'd. 12/10 analysis

[pieguyn]

actually, now I'm curious. why are you reading me as town?

[pieguyn]

I assume you read the entirety of 5812?

[pieguyn]

I really don't like the idea of confirming someone as town because of the modkill threat, but i can see why you'd think that, and I agree.

neither do I, but I can't ignore something that very obviously happened and that I think is probably telling

I'm not taking it as a sign he's conftown or anything. it's more that I would just be extremely surprised if he actually was scum here, and that I am taking it as smth that is more likely to come from town than scum

[pieguyn]

If you're

that

conflicted on me you can always lynch me

who do you think is scum?

[pieguyn]

what is giving you reservations about mastin?

[pieguyn]

@_@
what is she trying to do?

[pieguyn]

@DGB: answer this plz

I assume you read the entirety of 5812?

[pieguyn]

I sure did.

I'm wondering why you had to form a legitimate read on me then, given it was obvious based on the last part of that post I'm Curiosity's mason partner. so if you had read through the entire post, you wouldn't *actually* have had to form a read on me.

[pieguyn]

pieguyn
beeboy
Aronis <- I really don't see why there'd be 2 protective roles on the same scumteam, especially when we are already gated via being a desperado. moreover, if I'm right about the reason Jingle was killed, Aronis would necessarily be required to be town. reevaluate this read based on actual play if there is reason to think otherwise.

pirate mollie/St. Constantine the Hermit <- strong townread from before + Dan/BOP interactions. I don't like that Constantine is doing fuck all, but I'm not really worried about it.
SXTLHGaiden <- read from before + Dan trying to take a shit on Sakura's Gaiden read is indicative of this
Sakura Hana <- strong townread from before + Dan interactions
purple hero (Antihero + Ms Marangal) <- sticking with my read here.

haj/mastin2 <- I don't really have a problem with her recent posts, and I also liked how she tried to explicitly stop me from getting paranoid instead of facilitating it.
Alchemist21/DrippingGoofball <- I really don't see this slot being scum at all. there are a lot of subtle things I think were more likely to come from a town player than a scum player, a lot of which I had pointed out back on D3; there is also the issue of how he replaced out.

Saki
beastcharizard
Om of the Nom

basically getting all my thoughts in order. I feel like there is something huge I've been missing this whole time, but I can't find out where :<

[pieguyn]

then ....... Sakura?

it's not her. and if you want to talk interactions, Dan was worried about Sakura WK'ing Gaiden back on D3, which would indicate Sakura is town.

[pieguyn]

I feel like, DBG is being DBG but I can't pin an alignment on her, though I think the biggest reason wisdom/mala died before you is mostly because they were gaining traction towards who was the scum.

their reads were basically the same as mine though, plus they also had Alch/DGB as town

I don't think we can speculate too much on why they died first. there are a wide number of reasons scum would have gone for them over me or vice versa that have nothing to do with reads

Om/beast is the most obvious conclusion here imo. what thing from game start are you talking about?

[pieguyn]

btw I'm not sure what you all are going on about PL'ing Saki. I can still shoot and potentially confirm another person as town, which means we'd be at odds.

[pieguyn]

although I should say now that I think about it, me shooting someone wouldn't actually confirm them as town. scum could still have a RB or a similar role

[pieguyn]

btw I should prob lay down a ground rule here

Do not hammer until I've announced my target, or otherwise decided not to announce it. Any hammer before I announce said target will be taken as a scum claim.

[pieguyn]

so you think this series of posts ISN'T scum being worried about a potential lynchbait being added into the town block?

Wtf, no, Gaiden is town.
Gaiden scumplay is very different.

I don't see anything remarkably different between this game's gaiden and last game's gaiden.

Mollie did I really trick you in to claiming masons with me f2f . good times if so ^_^.

@Pie. I didn't really "take a shit" on Mono's read. I offered my own opinion challenging hers or else taking one contrary to hers. I don't believe I should be required to agree with her / subvert my own opinion for hers when I don't see what she sees, and what difference she saw wasn't given as of yet.

Can I guess.

redirector. With the implication that MS redirected Pie to NS.

@Pie. I'm kinda tired right now and it's getting hard to see the problem here, but just because I'm not able to differentiate some as of yet unspecified difference between gaiden's scum game and gaiden's town game,

strictly using the material between this game and the last touhou game

, doesn't mean I'm unqualified to state that according to my specifications, using the same material, I do not see any difference in play. That does not mean that gaiden has to be scum because he was scum in the other game, but it does mean that citing a difference between play and using that difference to solidify a read should be regarded with some skepticism.

especially when the last sentence is a blatant lie given Sakura's Gaiden read was based on more than the last Touhou game.

[pieguyn]

also you disagree with my thoughts on Alch's replace out?

[pieguyn]

i really really disagree with the idea of replace outs being anything more than nulltells
to me it just feels extremely unethical to base any reads off something like that

not my problem

it happened. only thing I can do is accept it. I'm not going to ignore something that could very easily be telling just bc "lol replace out"

I'm very suspicious of the sudden push onto mollie/Constantine, btw (and this doesn't just apply to you, it's for everyone). have you not checked the interactions I brought up? both her play and said interactions point to her being town; BOP was really obviously trying to buddy/manipulate her, and overall I think Dan's ISO points more to her being town than scum (although I will say I'm not very sure about that, but BOP is the main point here)

[pieguyn]

Said reasoning doesn't particularly resonate with me, but it's not anti-resonating with me, either, meaning there's no reason not to trust it.

if you're town, can you please just stop with this?

every time you say this I feel like you're just trying to set up to discredit my reads via "pie usually uses weird reasoning that doesn't make sense as town", given you're not the first to have that kind of sentiment at all. you just saw me fucking nail BOP, what exactly is it that makes this particular argument not resonate?

[pieguyn]

like I get you're trying to point out where I might have gone wrong, but whenever you say that, it weirds me the fuck out. :/

[pieguyn]

if that was her being full of shit, she wouldn't have replaced out over it

it is possible it was legitimate and she just felt that way as scum, or it is possible she replaced out for other reasons and just made that up as an excuse

p-edit: honestly the only interactions that point to you are you defending all the scum and most of the scum ignoring you, which by itself isn't *actually* that compelling despite looking like shit. my scum read on you is more based on POE plus the reasoning Anti gave throughout the game than anything, really. on top of that, this is completely separate from the interactions with you, so I don't get why you being town would change the validity of said interactions.

[pieguyn]

Well, uh, pie...you kinda...do use weird reasoning that often doesn't make sense. (I'm the exact same way, mind you. Well-documented fact. As town, name a game where I was using not-weird reasoning that made sense. For every rare instance of it, there's ten where I don't and two where using it comes from scum.) Doesn't make the reasoning wrong, though. Just makes it weird.

Yeah fucking right.

I refuse to believe you actually think this. 2 games ago in Quickness Mafia, when you were town, you said I was playing a "top-form town game". The last game we played, as soon as I replaced in you townread me because I posted a wall full of "solid thoughts that really resonated with you".

MOREOVER, here's the kicker. In Quickness Mafia my reads were actually rather shit, and the logic behind them was kind of flimsy at various points (most of which resulted from me experimenting around with my playstyle a bit). Surprised I think that? I'm not fucking dumb, you know. I can make objective judgements of my own play. I was scumreading Not_Mafia the entire D1 for basically shallow as fuck reasons that probably would not have ever caught scum in any scenario, and if they did they would have been alignment relevant. I was pushing that read ridiculously hard, way more so than any sane player would have. I did similar with most of my other scumreads. The only scum reads I *actually* got right were based on POE, save for maybe the Bert read.

Then, in Serum and Steel, I was blatantly bullshitting at least one read because I was scum. Like, here was my reads list from that game:

Spoiler:

Subject: Serum & Steel 2: The Rise of Phyrexia--Endgame

town:

2. PeregrineV
town as fuck compared to baseline, is generally being proactive.

3. Antihero
posting is relevant, productive, and I agree with almost all his lines of inquiry. is making logical plays I might be making if I was here - as a specific point his early game pushes on zmuffin and ffery made a shitton of sense and were in line with my own thoughts at the time. had genuine sounding frustration at several points.

5. pixel(fferyllt+Kazekirimaru)
ffery's lack of engagement is null bc of her RL. and despite that, she's been consistently in here, making pushes, and stating her opinions with an air of confidence that is trademark town ffery. Kaze also is stepping back and not leading the hydra (I only found a few Kaze posts and in particular his apathy when he gave his reads 498 looked town) which is a massive towntell bc Kaze loves scum.

6. Kagami
the right things are catching her attention. I liked the way she was focused on her serum ability at the start of the game, and on top of that I liked just about all her thoughts in 488. additionally, the way she's been consistently focusing on setup spec the entire game (re: mastin vig claim, push for a town phyrexian to claim 765, ravager from the last game), etc. reads as genuine. I especially liked the way she was pushing the synthing-town-isn't so bad angle as it was a p big misconception about the game and the way she was clearing it up felt genuinely town motivated.

10. Titus
has been town for p much every post here. in particular I liked her effort towards trying to work out mastin's flavor 709, and her skepticism towards universal zmuffin townread and the way she was trying to push Anti as serum counterwagon reads as genuine.

11. Trustworthy(Tammy+Shadoweh)
Tammy's body of work contains a lot of genuine emotion and her engagement is at a good enough level for now. in particular I liked her reaction to ffery starting from 272 and the followup on it 495, her reaction to ABR 332/334, her push on F-16 when he came into the game 1379 and the way they subsequently worked it out.

14. Vezokpiraka
his thought processes have generally been transparent and genuinely town motivated. as a specific point, his 680 read town as fuck and the progression from there, to the way he was trying to figure out exactly what role mastin had in 683, to his subsequent backoff read as genuine.

18. F-16_Fighting_Falconiamsteve
I agree with p much all of his reads when he caught up and his thought processes are p much exactly in line with the way I saw him develop his reads firsthand in quickness. his interaction with Tammy was holy fuck town - his paranoia made a shitton of sense and the way he backed off and tried to work everything out hit all the right notes I'd expect from F-16. his pessimism about Chandra lynch 1537 also makes a shitton of sense after all the lynches we pushed in tales of you and quickness were wrong, and was also similar to his thought processes in quickness where he consistently questioned the lynch he was on. his recent posting comes off transparent as fuck (e.g. 1836) and outlines his thought processes in a way scum F-16 can't fake.

null-town:

4. massive
his efforts re: setup speculation 733 738 come off as genuinely town motivated on a gut level - I'm not sure how many ppl know flavor but I tend to be biased towards ppl who fill in the demand for flavor knowledge.

9. Magister Ludi
I liked his frustration re: feeling behind and feel a lot of his posts make sense from this POV - e.g. 1802 complaining about unnecessary fluff. I also liked his efforts to at least attempt to organize and lead (1326, 1626) and get the feeling he's legitimately frustrated with the gamestate after no one's listening to him. that, and the composition of the wagon (all my nullreads + CN) and the way it rose as a counterwagon to CN makes me think it's a shit wagon

15. sharpest-knife-on-tree
is constantly reacting to pressure in an indignated and defiant way that suggests a town POV (e.g. 126, 461). besides that nothing he did seems particularly scummy and thoughts generally seem town motivated.

null:

1. Albert B Rampage
7. Tattletale
8. zMuffinMan <- I have a read but I'm keeping my cards close till I'm sure
12. mastin2
her extreme reaction to zmuffin read as town and strongly reminds me of the way she reacted to the entire shitstorm in tales of you - looking back at it, it's p low to resort to personal attacks to get out of suspicion as scum and I'm skeptical mastin would go that far. however, zmuffin said she would fake that.. will probably just sheep zmuffin's read bc I can't read her for shit.
13. Pander Bears(DeasVail+BipolarChemist)
19. Lord Mhork

scum:

17. Chandra Nalaar
of all their posts, there is literally nothing I can point to and say "this looks town" - I get an overwhelming sense of feigned content from all of it. all his pushes are bullshit pushes on easy targets (e.g. ML, Kagami, Tattletale). in particular, the trajectory on his Kagami push makes 0 sense - in 497 he says Kagami is town, then in 1137 it becomes "all around ew" - the only mention of Kagami in between was 1 post where he questions her 1131 and 2 posts where it's just him disagreeing with smth she says - not to mention he apparently thinks ML is scum at the same time, despite ML pushing Kagami really hard. it's complete fucking BS and there's no way it's town motivated thought.

You're basically saying that my reads this game, which I've laid out in the most transparent as fuck way possible if you so much as fucking skim my ISO looking for posts where I case, are worse than reads in that ^ list which basically amount to "town as fuck compared to baseline, is generally being proactive." and having only 1 scum read.

And on top of that, you were sitting there in the dead QT WATCHING when I posted a wall full of posts directed between F-16 and Kagami that basically blew their cover as scum partners, which let's face it, is coming from the exact same mindset my reads this game are coming from in that I'm putting together how the scum team acted. I will admit part of this was because I was somewhat more informed as scum on the other scumteam, but it was still up to me to lay out exactly why they fit together as partners, and the reasoning I used was dead solid. And you saw TAMMY (who imo is one of the best scumhunters on this site. <3 if you're reading this) sit there and AGREE with the reasoning I was using, and you saw EXACTLY how much sense it made.

Unlike that wall case I made on CN (lololol) which everyone knows was crap which btw was because I was scum and completely exaggerating my read, the reasoning I am using here is fucking solid if you so much as look at it. And you know this.

I refuse to believe you actually hold this position as town. Moreover, if you are town, it is shit like this that makes me want to just give up and quit this fucking site entirely. I would rather just quit than consistently play in games where no one ever values my thoughts, and when it's obvious me being in games and pushing reads differently just winds up annoying people, even when I try really hard to work with town over it.

Sorry if the tone of this post sounds hostile, this just really pisses me the fuck off and I don't know what I can even do to change it at this point.

TO THE REST OF TOWN: Please read this interaction and make sure mastin actually fucking follows through when she says she's willing to trust my reads. If she is scum, she is planning on doing exactly the opposite - backtracking on it and hoping no one calls her on it. Please don't allow her to do that, just please fucking don't. That's all I ask, really.

[pieguyn]

if beast flips town and I die I want Om and then mastin flashlynched tomorrow

if beast flips scum, lynch Om anyway

I'm ready to end day now. in either case, I shoot Om. remember, don't treat my target not dying as an absolute clear unless both me and someone else die tomorrow night, since there is still the possibility of something like a roleblocker (strictly speaking there are other possibilities that can fuck up my role even with 2 deaths tonight, e.g. a redirector, but if GIF actually put a redirector in this game with my role).

[pieguyn]

Also pie, don't feel so bad really, I feel like after the madoka game on osu! i was finally able to improve my scumgame, was glad to finally put that into practice here, but unfortunately off-site + real life stuff hit midway through the game

the bar will definitely be substantially raised next time we both wind up in a game. fortunately I have a pretty good idea of where I went wrong here and so I can take steps to ensure it won't happen again :<

anyway, I said everything I wanted to say in the dead QT. GG all