Touhou: MitLoF ~ Makai Mix (Game Over)

[pieguyn]

I'm about to do something that will blow your minds:

ActionDan (1): beastcharizard

Kagami

(11):

pieguyn

,

Jingle

,

pirate mollie

,

Alchemist21

,

beeboy

,

Curiosity

,

Jakuzure Nonon

,

Mononoke

,

UNZAN

,

notscience

,

haj

Jingle (3): Om of the Nom, Ankamius, nopointinactingup
beeboy (1): Kagami
haj (1): Time
nopointinactingup (1): SXTLHGaiden
Om of the Nom (1): purple hero
Ankamius (1): Dreams of an Absolution

Alchemist21 (1): Om of the Nom
Jakuzure Nonon (1):

haj

pieguy (1):

beeboy

Jingle (3): Ankamius,

Curiosity

, nopointinactingup
ActionDan (2): Dreams of an Absolution,

pieguyn

Om of the Nom (7):

pirate mollie

, purple hero,

Mononoke

,

Alchemist21

,

Jingle

, Saki,

Jakuzure Nonon

Not Voting: ActionDan, SXTLHGaiden, Time, beastcharizard

---

the Om wagon is quite literally 5/7 of the unknowns from the Kagami wagon, + Saki and purple (who is prob town).

does anyone see the problem with this lynch?

now if anyone still wants to lynch Om, tell me why either you think scum randomly decided to bus him or why you think Kagami was all town-driven. (for the record, I'm p sure there was at least one scum on Kagami wagon, namely Jakuzure bc their reasoning was ass aka just sheeping Wisdom, but you don't even have to agree with me on who it is. the point is, if Kagami was scum driven, Om is too, and is thus most likely a town lynch)

also I'm just going to keep spamming this until it gets addressed so don't try to bum rush this

[pieguyn]

it is highly unlikely the whole fucking wagon went without ONE scum, when you consider the quality of a lot of the reasoning for the wagon. Jakuzure's reason was ass, Alch's reasoning was ass, then we have Jingle's potential scum-case, mollie tunneling, Sakura's vote, etc. etc.

and now the same shit is happening today, even with Wisdom hardline DEFENDING Om. hell fucking no

btw, if you're going to hate on Wisdom/mollie, you should really hate on me too (although I did have a bunch of reasoning that never made it into the thread bc I knew it wouldn't matter either way if I did post it)

[pieguyn]

also I'm well aware it is easy for scum to be on or off the wagon

this is why I'm considering the reasoning behind the votes, as per Kagami's advice

btw, I'm fairly sure Jingle is lynch #3. Ank and NPIAU have both parked their votes there after defending Kagami (mislynch #1) and doing the same thing yesterday.

[pieguyn]

The biggest reason people were scumreading AD in that game was the exact same reason you are; he wasn't doing anything.

except he was doing shit in that game

we went over that when I pointed out he was taking stances and actually trying to accomplish things in that game

[pieguyn]

DO NOT PUT ANY MORE VOTES ON OM. UNZAN HAS STILL NOT VOTED AN OM IS CURRENTLY AT L-2

[pieguyn]

* pieguy,

why do the people in the show have such shitty phones? is it academy city banned smartphones? cause the show is supposed to be *in the future*

at the moment im treating it as an alternate dimension

I'm p sure this came out before a lot of this bullshit about smartphones happened. I might be wrong though (and if I am hell if I know)

[pieguyn]

DO NOT PUT ANY MORE VOTES ON OM. UNZAN HAS STILL NOT VOTED AN OM IS CURRENTLY AT L-2

[pieguyn]

if DOAA is scum I'm forgetting everything I know about mafia. he is my strongest townread atm

[pieguyn]

You missed my point.

My point is that he was contributing far less than the rest of the playerlist and was scumread for all 3 day phases before dying, then flipped town. Since this game is a lot harder to read and follow, the same motivation level would result in less content, resulting in the same type of result. I'm not arguing about it being bad; I'm arguing about it being scummy.

and you're missing my point

it doesn't matter how much content he has

what matters is what that content is aiming to accomplish when he ~does~ post it, e.g. what the content actually is

Dan's content this game is, quite blatantly, completely useless. nothing he has done at all this game day has any town motivation, or has anything that indicates he is attempting to determine alignments or otherwise game solve. the fact that he might post LESS content, should not have any effect on the fact that none of the content he HAS posted has been aimed to accomplish anything at all, especially when it's shown he is capable of providing town motivated content as town (even when there is not much of it)

but go on, tell me what he is trying to do in this game with the things I listed off

[pieguyn]

btw railgun is shit. Don't watch it.

KILL: ActionDan

ok srs question, can we stop spamming the fuck out of the thread now? I kind of want ppl to actually pay attention to my post

[pieguyn]

that ship has sailed, pieguy

they already had their chance

what do you mean?

[pieguyn]

UNVOTE: Om

I'll hear pie out some more.

I've already said what I wanted to say, really

the composition of Om's wagon is the same as Kagami's wagon, which makes Om a mislynch unless Kagami was all-town, which I don't think it was

now vote Dan with me?

i mean that there was enough hate to start a wagon yesterday

i mean... the only way your "lynch #3" makes sense is if mollie is scum.

do you think mollie is scum?

I'm saying Kagami = lynch #1, they had lined Jingle up to be lynch #2, but then Om got wagoned instead and they're instead setting Jingle up to be lynch #3.

it's pretty much just speculation though. also, I don't think mollie is scum but I'm not as sure of the townread there as I once was

[pieguyn]

hey pie, 2 things:

1. the only time I remember an all town lynch was the 1 on mastina in organic chemistry. 13 players lynched her. all town. I think they are rare in the first couple of days but they do happen. not saying that this 1 is but they do happen. what I noticed in oc was that the wagon was pushed by strong vocal players and not even I could stop it. I think that kagami lynch was like that and i am not sure how much vca can be done off of it.

I'm not particularly ruling the possibility of it being all town out, but if it is, my reads are like completely fucked atm

a lot of the ppl I'm POE'ing and/or scumreading are on the wagon. that, plus the sheer lack of reasoning some ppl even had for being on the wagon (Jakuzure and Alch come to mind), makes me think it wasn't all town. Kagami basically said the same thing at D1 end and that I need to consider the reasoning behind the votes on the wagon. a lot of the reasons given were pretty bad and/or nonexistent; this is basically the case for every remaining unknown left at this point, save you.

and I don't think it's a case of all the town sheeping vocal town (Wisdom) either, since Wisdom is hardline defending Om today as opposed to pushing him and everyone is back on there anyway

ftr:

TOWN (S->W):

Curiosity

<gap> DOAA, purple, Sakura, beeboy, mollie <gap> Om, haj <gap> Gaiden, beast
{Saki, Time, Alchemist, Jingle}
SCUM (W->S): Ankamius, NPIAU, Jakuzure, Dan

[pieguyn]

where are you at with monoke right now?

mollie, same thing

prob town

as I said, though, I can usually 100% townread Sakura and I haven't been able to do that yet. however, there are certain things I am looking for from town-her here, and she's done a pretty good job of continuing to hit them so far. if she stops, I'll reevaluate the read

[pieguyn]

I'd rather vote Haj. The linked QT gave me more insight to AD's possible motivation for his neighbor-mason gambit. What's your reason for Jakuzure scum?

my reason for reading Dan as scum doesn't particularly have anything to do with the gambit

Jakuzure is scum bc their play this game has basically been them going around trying to avoid antagonizing anyone at all. their pushes D1 consisted entirely of sheeping mollie/Wisdom (the latter of which was the main wagon), and their push today was Om (the main wagon again) with no reasoning. this was most notable in the early game where they were upright buddying most of the players and not doing anything controversial whatsoever; there was also their reaction to haj which sucked.

the only plausible way you could argue that jingle is the fallguy is if feirei and alchemist are both scum

...which actually isn't that crazy...

it's probably not the case that all the scum who are lining up Jingle for a lynch are pushing him as scum at the moment. we have Time/Gaiden/Saki/beast who are all being giant lurkfucks and it would not be hard for someone who is currently townreading him to just go back and flip flop on it later. the point is, if this ~is~ what's going on, NPIAU and Ank would be setting up the lynch in advance.

you are also townreading gaiden which I really don't understand.

Gaiden is Sakura's read straight up except I want her to confirm it since she hasn't mentioned him in a while. Jingle/Alch are also POE reads for me (both are on the wagon with Jakuzure).

also, I'm not sure what your point is with Time's role

also also, wagon Dan with me

[pieguyn]

He put out a stance on Kagami on Day 1 and asked why people were scumreading her. Considering that she was basically the primary focal point for half of Day 1, this is reasonable. The length of the topic exploded so fast that I'd pretty much expect anyone who's jumping in the middle and not wanting to read back would start here.
He's the only one giving any shits about haj's anti-town crusade against Jakuzure. I like this because worse case scenario, haj is threatening to basically make two players in the game nothing but noise (him and Jaku) until it's dealt with and no one else is caring. He's been focusing mainly on the focal points for the day instead of meandering into random nonsense. I'd rather wait until AD posts more (which he's already doing as I'm typing this, I see) before really judging this much more, as it has only been a few days since the day started.

yeah, I admit he did that, but that's literally the best thing he did and it still makes a lot of sense for scum to do. the majority of his posts were mostly filler and aren't particularly town motivated.

if haj has a soft guilty he'll get the fuck in here and claim it eventually, given he already got outed. there's not much of a point in explicitly trying to focus on it, especially to the extent he's been doing. also, I don't get what you mean with threatening to make Jakuzure into nothing but noise.

One thing I will note is that you're getting bias from how many posts this game has. AD had multiple pockets of time posting literally nothing in LoL, up to about the timeframe that this game was even up. Go through his ISO in LoL and pay close attention to the time stamps. It's very easy to point towards content levels and see the disparity, but the relevance of it is a lot lower than you think. We've only been playing this game for EIGHT DAYS (not counting night 1).

er

as I said, this has nothing to do with the LEVEL of activity. it's the QUALITY of the activity that counts

[pieguyn]

vote: jakuzure

[pieguyn]

I would like to point out 2 things

1. if haj = Wake, he's actually claimed at several points he has "forsaken gambits". ignoring a guilty just bc it might be fake and it might be him pushing it is the most dumb fuck thing I've ever heard of, even despite his history

2. if he's not, what the fuck are we worrying about? treat it like a standard fucking guilty.

[pieguyn]

If he's softing a guilty on me, he's lying. He's been mindlessly desiring my lynch and being a village idiot most of the entire game.

also I haven't voted.

p-edit: that's not what you think it is. He's just pulling the same scummy bs since Day 1 and I'm pretty damn close to voting him just to get rid of him.

^this is a really bad reaction to being soft guiltied btw

[pieguyn]

How is that different?

srsly?

I literally just went over this

You missed my point.

My point is that he was contributing far less than the rest of the playerlist and was scumread for all 3 day phases before dying, then flipped town. Since this game is a lot harder to read and follow, the same motivation level would result in less content, resulting in the same type of result. I'm not arguing about it being bad; I'm arguing about it being scummy.

and you're missing my point

it doesn't matter how much content he has

what matters is what that content is aiming to accomplish when he ~does~ post it, e.g. what the content actually is

Dan's content this game is, quite blatantly, completely useless. nothing he has done at all this game day has any town motivation, or has anything that indicates he is attempting to determine alignments or otherwise game solve. the fact that he might post LESS content, should not have any effect on the fact that none of the content he HAS posted has been aimed to accomplish anything at all, especially when it's shown he is capable of providing town motivated content as town (even when there is not much of it)

but go on, tell me what he is trying to do in this game with the things I listed off

[pieguyn]

pb[]unvote[/b]

[pieguyn]

fuck

unvote

[pieguyn]

Gaiden confirms that Spring is here.

if this is a fruit vendor, I don't think it's really conclusive. it can also be a scum role

haj, claim please

[pieguyn]

BTW

the one thing I will absolutely, absolutely, absolutely,

ABSOLUTELY

not let happen this game is letting a potential guilty get completely forgotten about. all you people who are trying to sit there discrediting the guilty instead of at least trying to explore it are doing it wrong.

[pieguyn]

on board with Omscum

this stopped being a thing since page 128 btw \o/

so how does it feel to finally play a game where you don't deathtunnel the shit out of me and always think I'm scum?

[pieguyn]

in the first game, the alignments were, from what I could tell, completely random

we had Hakurei Reimu (the main protagonist), Shameimaru Aya, Kawashiro Nitori, and whatever the fuck mala/chamber was. there was no relationship between any of them. the only one whose flavor was obvious was Mima who was an SK

I would expect this game should be similar, just the character pool all the ppl in the game are picked from is focused on characters from Makai. aka Makai related != necessarily the scumteam. if there ~is~ some kind of relation there, I have no intention of trying to find it this game

[pieguyn]

jesus fuck where is everyone

also I'd still be 100% fine with a jakuzure lynch regardless of role results. I'd make a case but I don't feel like it atm so it'll come tomorrow. also, ~if~ there does end up being an actual guilty, it is just shit play to not follow it, even if you all are going "omg it might be fake". you just..... don't...... ignore guilties just because you think someone is a shit player and that they might fake a guilty. this is really just common sense

[pieguyn]

just go ahead. i have had a high fever since monday and have literally no energy for this. just lynch haj tomorrow when we flip town

get better soon /hug

[pieguyn]

Wisdom, the sheer fact that this is even a consideration is everything that is wrong with the current site meta. faking guilties should not even be possible. the idea that there is any tolerance at all for faking guilties, which you are providing by arguing against policy lynching him if he's lying about it, encourages this behavior

moreover, what you are doing also has the obvious side effect of discrediting what could potentially be a legitimate guilty

moreover, if haj DOESN'T have a guilty, where is the investigative role then? there is bound to be at least one in this game that is not MS bc I know what role he has and it's not very good. this will be resolved once haj actually gets the fuck in here and claims his exact role

I can list off a whole bunch of reasons why you should, you know, actually listen when someone gets a guilty, but tl;dr is please shut up this one time and not insist on something that is theoretically wrong. tia

[pieguyn]

and as I said, wait until haj fullclaims

we won't fucking get anywhere by sitting around attempting to discredit his claim before he actually claims

moreover, that statement is implicitly based on the assumption jakuzure is town, and thus I don't give a shit about it

[pieguyn]

pieguy (8): Mononoke, Dreams of an Absolution, purple hero, beastcharizard, Time, beeboy, nopointinactingup, Om of the Nom

Jakuzure Nonon (4): haj, pieguyn, ActionDan, Alchemist21

it's really interesting how these 2 wagons have quite literally nothing in common. also interesting is that the Jakuzure wagon is going literally nowhere. the fact that Wisdom is in this game does not matter, since he is actively fighting both wagons.

~if~ my wagon was opportunistic, I think it would imply Jakuzure is scum and the people on the Jakuzure wagon are more likely town. sidenote, Sakura's vote came before the guilty actually happened, so this does not apply to her. I'm not entirely convinced this was the case, but it's something to note.

[pieguyn]

don't like Time's latest post, either, it looks like scum who want to see if they can capitalize on the opportunity to get somebody lynched now who will otherwise never get lynched. if Jakuzure is scum (he is), I'm footnoting the hell out of this

[pieguyn]

so wait, is haj a VI or scum?

earlier you were calling him a VI and saying you would vote him "just to get rid of him".

[pieguyn]

I do admit I don't approve of the fact he supposedly has this guilty, but has done fuck all and is being a giant lurkfuck about it

however, by itself that is not enough of a reason. he needs to get the fuck in here and claim his exact role ASAP, then we go from there.

[pieguyn]

claim or I policy you

[pieguyn]

actually nah, that's a bit too harsh

you do have to understand about half of this town will continue to think you're faking this guilty for whatever reason if you don't claim. with that in mind, it is in everyone's including yours) best interest if you claim

[pieguyn]

the reason everyone thinks you're faking this is because there was a player who has a reputation of being an idiot, for several reasons, one of which included faking a guilty in this game and pushing it through to a lynch rather than analyzing the reactions from it:
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=53&t=33008
and everyone in this game believes you're an alternate account of the player who did it. (especially bc your attitude in this game has been very similar to the attitude this player generally takes in games)

I don't particularly think you'd lie about this, but I feel like if you fullclaimed a lot of the animosity towards this would disappear. it might not necessarily be *optimal*, but it would be better than everyone running around and continuing to ignore you over it.

[pieguyn]

as I said, I don't think you'd lie about this

but like

just saying it's not you isn't going to convince anyone. yeah, I agree it's really fucking dumb that no one is listening for whatever reason, but it will be impossible to fix it if the game continues like this. and I don't think it's a scum tactic either; the person who is primarily pushing this as an angle is Wisdom. :/

[pieguyn]

And a roleclaim is supposed to encourage people that it's real?

in this particular case, yes

regardless of alignment, Jakuzure is probably telling the truth about being a fruit vendor. so there are only so many roles you can be that would have got a guilty on them. moreover, you're probably the last investigative role given we already have masons + MS's role. ergo, if you claim and there is no CC, it would be pretty strong evidence in favor of you telling the truth

and that's what I'm saying. at the rate we're going, we won't ever get the flip. something needs to happen in order to get everyone to listen to you.

[pieguyn]

there are only so many roles you can be that would have got a guilty on them.

also, as a result of this, it is highly likely that scum could have already figured out the exact role you have, and so there's no reason to continue hiding it anyway

[pieguyn]

@HAJ AND EVERYONE ELSE:

this is still relevant v

And a roleclaim is supposed to encourage people that it's real?

in this particular case, yes

regardless of alignment, Jakuzure is probably telling the truth about being a fruit vendor. so there are only so many roles you can be that would have got a guilty on them. moreover, you're probably the last investigative role given we already have masons + MS's role. ergo, if you claim and there is no CC, it would be pretty strong evidence in favor of you telling the truth

and that's what I'm saying. at the rate we're going, we won't ever get the flip. something needs to happen in order to get everyone to listen to you.

[pieguyn]

ok.... the ONLY thing that would make me think the guilty is real is feirei taking this "insane or paranoid cop" angle

yes, it's exactly as I said

there are several reasons for Jakuzure scum that are not limited to this potential guilty. their reaction to this whole thing was one of them. over the course of this game day, they have flip flopped between haj VI, haj newb-scum, and haj lol town role who got a fake guilty on them.

I don't believe the latter one in particular is a stance they could hold. they're full of shit

if I elaborated on my reasoning I brought up earlier for scumreading them, would you consider lynching them?

so

where are all the great happy feelings on sakura coming from?

idgi

there are several things this game that are more likely to come from town Sakura than scum Sakura. additionally, scum Sakura is not perfect at replicating her town game - when she is scum, there are certain things that end up being forced, or out of place. for the most part, this has not happened yet here

I can elaborate on the meta behind this if you ~really~ want, but it would not make sense to anyone besides me and I really don't wanna out it for no reason, so yeah

[pieguyn]

also we are not lynching haj. there is practically 0 chance haj is scum and faking this guilty. there's no scum motivation for him faking a guilty to get Jakuzure, of all ppl, lynched (or there at least wouldn't be, if ppl like Wisdom and Anti weren't playing to this site meta of allowing fake guilties).

[pieguyn]

if sakura was scum she'd be driving a wagon on me and not talking to me

^you have the right idea, even though it's slightly more complicated than that

[pieguyn]

vote: jakuzure

[pieguyn]

hey, i didn't create that problem

sure, but we sure as hell shouldn't just sit around doing nothing to fix it. together, we can fight the power \o/

[pieguyn]

I think notty was really weird nk. no1 seems to want to talk about this.

missed this the first time around

agree with this to some extent. however, I was considering who would kill notsci for a while, and I don't think we can tell anything from it

notsci was prob the best nightkill N1 in this game, in general. there was no one who was stepping the fuck up and leading, and those who were (aka Wisdom) were pretty flagrantly wrong. and he was regarded as town by basically everyone

for a while I was thinking it might be bc of you given that one game where you NK'ed Bert on N1. however ime when scum make a NK like that they won't.... proceed to openly draw attention to it in thread

from a reads POV, notsci wanted Dan and Time dead really hard, and I think most of his townreads were accurate. however I'm not about to do NKA exclusively on the first NK in a large game

[pieguyn]

which is indicative of town who cant decide if the person fakeclaiming a guilty on them is scum or just an idiot.

it's also indicative of scum who are just searching for whatever excuse they can find to discredit the guilty. see how fun this is?

regardless, the point (which you conveniently left out of your post) is, the 3rd stance is p obviously bullshit

[pieguyn]

anyway, I don't intend to sit here and argue with you over it any further in the actual game thread

[pieguyn]

was that hammer?

someone brought up me directing haj. if I had to pick anyone, I'd pick Ank

[pieguyn]

my reads look a bit different than they did yesterday

TOWN (S->W):

Curiosity

<gap> DOAA, purple, mollie, Sakura, Ankamius <gap> Om, Saki, haj*
{beeboy, Time, Gaiden, beast}
SCUM (W->S): Alchemist, <gap> NPIAU, Dan

*haj is scum if and only if there is a traitor in this game. otherwise he's town. DISCLAIMER: I AM NOT INTERESTED IN PURSUING THIS UNTIL LATER

Ank practically townslippsed (I say practically bc it's not a legitimate townslip, but it's still smth that no one would think about) at the end of D2. I'll leave it to yall to see if you can find it.

I'm still trying to parse through this role stuff. that'll come next post

[pieguyn]

OK, so there's not as much to this as I thought

it's unlikely Jingle actually got NK'ed. he probably bodyguarded the target. Time (or whoever was directing Jingle if it's not Time) should claim what he did, and we go from there.

I will note Jingle was softclaiming like a boss for practically the entire D2. it ~is~ possible scum picked up on that and decided to kill him, but I'll figure that out when we have more information about what happened.

[pieguyn]

cop would have been used on N1

speaking of that, I should probably get on looking for inno crumbs

[pieguyn]

Thinking about it overnight wis is my strongest townread. I've still got some pretty strong town reads though.

I have 0 reservations with

VOTE: Om

I'll be back to talk after I get off work.

FAIIIIIIIIILLLLLLLLL

oh well

[pieguyn]

I want to hear what Time/whoever was leashing Jingle says before proceeding. as it stands, I'd be very ok with NPIAU or Dan.

[pieguyn]

actually, if DOAA has the role I think they have, I want them to claim their result after Time claims. I'm still p sure of them being town - MS had thought me and Wisdom might be masons sometime back on D1. if he was scum, he wouldn't have bothered getting a claim from me, when he knew what my role was anyway.

also

@NATI:

I'd love to hear why you had a scum read on me. mostly out of curiosity

[pieguyn]

er........ no

he thought it was me and Wis at first

after that he thought it was you/beeboy iirc. not sure what happened after that but I distinctly remember him thinking it was me/Wisdom at some point

[pieguyn]

pieguy sent out a reminder pm to everyone who didnt submit night actions to do so

^this is true

[pieguyn]

i think of you too much <3

<3

[pieguyn]

oh hey. nati decided to appear. hooray.

i think haj killed jingle so that jingle cant bite him for his bullshit guilty

or something along that line

the reason I don't think Jingle was targeted for the kill is it would be really fucking dumb for anyone to actually nightkill Jingle

there's 2 conftowns plus you. sure, Jingle was crumbing really hard, but no one could have figured out what role he had. killing basically anyone else would have been safer

it is possible scum picked up on the fact he crumbed an inno on Curiosity and figured he had an investigative role. however, that line of logic would apply regardless of who the scum are, and thus this would have nothing to do with haj

[pieguyn]

purple hero you have no idea what my role is. in fact 95% of players in mafiascum have no idea what im doing most of the time. let me give you my love and care and kindly request for you to "put your vote on a more viable target". tia/

if you have a result that clears someone, you really should just claim it

afaict it's the correct play here

[pieguyn]

I was the captain. We knew the maid was town, we didn't know that he had to follow orders though. He investigated for what it's worth.

what did you order him to do N1/N2?

[pieguyn]

I don't see anything remarkably different between this game's gaiden and last game's gaiden.

are you srs

I just went back to ISO him from the other game and there is at least one huge difference that may be alignment relevant (which, btw, I was able to figure out almost immediately). is this a stance you actually hold, or are you trying to keep as many options open as possible?

[pieguyn]

why hasn't Time claimed their actions yet

[pieguyn]

nope

[pieguyn]

look harder

it's actually really obvious. I don't know if Sakura is reading him that way, but it's smth I would expect to be alignment relevant regardless of who is doing it.

[pieguyn]

Dreams of an Absolution (1): pirate mollie
Alchemist21 (3): purple hero, Om of the Nom, Curiosity
SXTLHGaiden (1): Dreams of an Absolution
haj (1): Saki

Not Voting: SXTLHGaiden, beastcharizard, pieguyn, ActionDan, beeboy, Mononoke, nopointinactingup, Ankamius, haj, Alchemist21, Time

With 17 alive, 9 votes to lynch

Deadline: November 16, 3:10 PM EST.
Countdown: (expired on 2014-11-16 15:10:00)

[pieguyn]

Tbh I'm not going to find it when my mthod of comparison is activity and post length and tone

if you admit you weren't going to find it, what was the point in bringing it up?

[pieguyn]

MTD I see you. get in here and claim your actions already plz and thx

[pieguyn]

in that case, scum killed Jingle bc they thought he was softing investigative PR really hard. he kept saying "I'm never getting lynched this game" all of D2, which is basically the textbook softclaim. the most likely explanation is that scum saw him crumbing an inno at D2 start, then saw the rest of his D2 play and figured he was prob an investigative role.

which means I'm going with Time town. yaaaay

I guess it makes more sense for them to kill an unknown investigative PR over a set of claimed masons, given the PR might pop up with a result out of nowhere, whereas the masons can get killed anytime later. I'm trying to figure out where I could be going wrong here and I haven't seen it yet -.-

[pieguyn]

@pie jingle town doesnt mean time town. Such a role could also be scum.

you're missing the point

in order for Jingle to be the scum nightkill, they wouldn't have known he wasn't actually an investigative role. if Time was scum, they would have known what abilities Jingle had. then they would have decided to kill notsci over Jingle N1 for some unexplained reason, and then wait until N2 to kill him instead. what's the conclusion?

[pieguyn]

in this case what's the probability a scum time who controls jingle knows that it's jingle he controls.

whoops, forgot about that at the end. but it still applies to the first part.

scum knows they control someone who does xxx. they find out Jingle is said person they are controlling. what would the point be in nightkilling him if they knew his one good ability (1-shot cop) had been used already?

it's more likely scum figured he had an investigative role and killed him in order to stop him from getting a potential mystery investigation off

btw, you still haven't answered my question. what was the point in you trying to take a shit on Sakura's Gaiden read if you admitted you wouldn't be able to spot any difference in his scumplay if there was one?

[pieguyn]

Alchemist21 (4): purple hero, Om of the Nom, Curiosity, pirate mollie
SXTLHGaiden (1): Dreams of an Absolution
haj (3): Saki, Time, Alchemist21

Not Voting: SXTLHGaiden, beastcharizard, pieguyn, ActionDan, beeboy, Mononoke, nopointinactingup, Ankamius, haj
With 17 alive, 9 votes to lynch

Deadline: November 16, 3:10 PM EST.
Countdown: (expired on 2014-11-16 15:10:00)

[pieguyn]

I'm taking another look at Alch and I don't particularly feel optimistic about lynching him. there's a bunch of idiosyncrasies that I think are more likely to come from town than scum

I'm slowly starting to believe the Kagami wagon really was all town. if that's the case, Om is basically scum by POE

vote: NPIAU

can we do this instead?

[pieguyn]

btw I will fully get behind a Dan lynch if anyone else wants to wagon him. I'll make a case sometime later, but I feel like it's been ignored that my scum read on him has quite literally nothing to do with the fact that he is lurking.

[pieguyn]

seriously?

if Alch is town I think it was all town

the worst votes on the wagon were Alch and Jakuzure. Jakuzure has now flipped town. I haven't ~really~ looked into it yet, but I would rather not blindly rush this before at least looking at it.

[pieguyn]

I singlehandedly lost the last game for town bc I didn't think things through enough. there's no way in hell I'm letting myself do that again.

I'm not by any means trying to clear him yet, I just intend to look into it more first.

[pieguyn]

pie, what exactly is the sphincteritis about alchemist?

disclaimer, this is like 99% gut

Spoiler:

Did you really just list the mod-confirmed player as a scumspect?

VOTE: Om

Just a flavor confirmation? Where are you guys getting that idea, and what point does that serve for the game? If flavor isn't alignment indicative, then I can't see any reason for the role and its player to be mod confirmed.

Om, you were the one who said it probably meant IC. When did your opinion on that change?

first off is that whole shitstorm with Time's flavor confirmation. I wouldn't expect scum to actively push the idea Time is conftown as a result of that. scum do not actively aim to create conftowns; yeah, they call people town in order to suck up to them, but they don't go out searching for ways to prove people as town, since it directly counteracts their win con. now, I admit the logic he was using isn't particularly correct, but I still feel like it comes from a similar town mindset. I don't think he as scum would have this theory that Time is conftown and be pushing it to the point that he's suspicious of other people for trying to discredit it (and he did this with Kagami later down the road too); as town, on the other hand, it's more believable that he thinks this and doesn't understand why Time should ever reasonably be placed under suspicion.

I also liked the way he snap voted on this without much of a second thought, and the way he called Om out for what he perceived as him backtracking - if Time was actually confirmed in any way, this is the kind of thing I would ask someone about. this whole thing came across pretty genuine, actually

I do acknowledge that what he did was scummy but I still know he is town

FYI, you're coming off too strong. It's not good for you.

I kind of liked his attempt at correcting beeboy on what he believed to be incorrect behavior - it seems like kind of an unnatural continuation for scum and way more natural for town.

So I should force a stance instead where I have none? I should just arbitrarily decide something I don't really believe?

usually scum who don't have any stances aren't so aggressive in response when they get called on it. I've found posts like this to be more likely to come from indignated town who are legitimately having trouble getting reads or unsure about the gamestate.

When did they claim mason?

No, I missed that. Who linked it? I'll look at the link from their ISO if you don't have it.

generally scum are way more careful about making sure they know all the claims, especially when it's something that confirms someone one way or the other. I didn't particularly like his previous few posts 2844/2854 bc I thought it looked like scum trying to discredit someone. however, imo it comes off a lot more sincere if you look at it from the POV of him not knowing about the mason claim, especially the part where he calls Wisdom out for posting too much and then accusing him of fluff (cos even I have to admit I get kind of frustrated at that sometimes).

there's some more reaaaaaaally weak (aka probably completely irrelevant and I'm reading too much into it) things, but those are the main things I liked. I'm not feeling strongly either way about this since there were also things in his play I disliked, but at the same time I'm not feeling particularly optimistic about a scum flip here. /shrug

[pieguyn]

@Pie. I didn't really "take a shit" on Mono's read. I offered my own opinion challenging hers or else taking one contrary to hers. I don't believe I should be required to agree with her / subvert my own opinion for hers when I don't see what she sees, and what difference she saw wasn't given as of yet.

er, you're missing the point

you were disagreeing with her. AT THE SAME TIME, you admitted you wouldn't be able to find a difference in his scum play if there was one.

so what exactly were you trying to accomplish by offering said opinion? you are making a claim that you know you can't prove/back up.

[pieguyn]

btw, I was like 95% sure I would get wagoned sometime on D2 anyway. mostly because you/Nat had scumreads on me for afaict no reason -.- so I didn't mind outing that much

[pieguyn]

dreams is confirmed to have the role you know he has. scum-dreams investigates me with said role. he now knows my role and has previously linked me and Wisdom together as masons.

what is the motivation in him openly trying to get me to out my role in thread, when doing so wouldn't actually let him gain anything?

besides that his play this game has been proactive. I wrote him off around the point on D1 where the entire mollie v. Curiosity shitstorm happened and he was throwing himself in there as hard as he could in order to try and break it up.

[pieguyn]

the only thing I don't get is why he would push me as 3p

[pieguyn]

lolno

it's actually a carbon copy or organic chemistry

how?

also, it would not be hard at all for him to deduce what I am from the result he got, not counting any 3p scenario

[pieguyn]

be a contrarian on most of the popular reads

iirc he didn't go against the flow much this game. he pushed Kagami, Jakuzure, Dan, most of which were popular targets. which reads was he deliberately being contrary about?

make a lot of noise without actually doing much

I could see this. there was a point sometime on D2 where I felt like he was deliberately making posts with nothing in them just to make as many posts as possible.

I could think of a possible town explanation for the 3rd party thing, but you have a point there. I wanna see what he says first

[pieguyn]

alchemist
nopoint
om

just off the top of my head

I couldn't actually find his stance on any of those players anywhere :<

elaborate on this?

[pieguyn]

where'd he vote NPIAU?

I did find the Om vote, but everyone thought Om was prob scum anyway and I don't remember much in the way of him actively trying to convince everyone about said read.

[pieguyn]

why do you think some who says "they are not town" is not lynchworthy?

are you referring to the fake guilties?

haj is practically conftown unless there is a traitor in this game. his play doesn't make any sense for scum otherwise (and I'm not talking about just the guilty, his play this entire game has been this dumbfuck town play that would normally be guaranteed to get him killed, either by lynch or other means. like, if there was a vig, he would have been the best target just based on policy). I'm not worrying about that until all the other scum have flipped already.

and I'm working through DOAA atm

[pieguyn]

hellifino. blame me being awake anytime before noon

[pieguyn]

meh. I have a 0% success rate with any kind of freudian slip. their reaction to it was afaict null too.

@Anti, no response to my latest post?

[pieguyn]

@Pie. I'm kinda tired right now and it's getting hard to see the problem here, but just because I'm not able to differentiate some as of yet unspecified difference

between gaiden's scum game and gaiden's town game

, strictly using the material between this game and the last touhou game, doesn't mean I'm unqualified to state that according to my specifications, using the same material, I do not see any difference in play. That does not mean that gaiden has to be scum because he was scum in the other game, but it does mean that citing a difference between play and using that difference to solidify a read should be regarded with some skepticism.

1. this is a misrep of Sakura's Gaiden read. her read is not exclusively based on Gaiden's scum play from the previous game; it's obvious she has experience with Gaiden spanning multiple (town and scum) games.

2. the problem is that you came out of nowhere to discredit Sakura's read. if Sakura sees at least one difference, and you don't see it, the logical conclusion is not "Sakura is wrong and/or dumb", especially when you don't even know what the difference she is thinking of is

~moreover~, when I was able to find a not-so-subtle difference after going back and looking through his ISO, you straight up admitted you wouldn't be capable of finding it

it's pretty fucking obvious there's at least one difference here. however, you are completely unwilling to accept that and instead continue to push there are none

you are not trying to form a read or consider possibilities here, you are sitting there just trying to discredit. it didn't occur to you at all that Sakura might be seeing something you missed, especially when 1. she is more experienced at reading Gaiden than you 2. you straight up admitted it's likely you missed it? (not to mention the bolded is you speaking with absolute certainty Gaiden is town although tbh I wouldn't expect anyone to slip about something so trivial.)

[pieguyn]

VOTE: ACTIONDAN

[pieguyn]

@Anti,

alchemist
nopoint
om

just off the top of my head

I couldn't actually find his stance on any of those players anywhere :<

elaborate on this?

[pieguyn]

Pedit: Whats with the excessively large votes?

if you are reading the thread, please tell me where the hell there is anything town in thought process Dan is displaying here

tia

[pieguyn]

playing "protown" != having thought processes that make sense from a town player

town who do fuck all at least think in a town way when they are thinking about the game. Dan is not

[pieguyn]

I didn't misrep the read at all. I have yet to state, explicitly or implicitly, that Sakura doesn't have experience with multiple scum/town gaiden games, nor debate that Sakura's original statement and read referenced multiples of both, which is necessarily what you are suggesting, unless you confusing the words "misrep" and "question".

but just because I'm not able to differentiate

some as of yet unspecified difference between gaiden's scum game and gaiden's town game, strictly using the material between this game and the last touhou game

, doesn't mean I'm unqualified to state that according to my specifications, using the same material, I do not see any difference in play.

^this directly implies that Sakura's read exclusively comes from Gaiden's scum play in the last game. which in turn implies she is not considering any other games in her read. so yes, you did implicitly state that

Bolded is maybe the one reasonable concern you bring up.

it's funny, bc everything else I pointed out after that is me detailing why the way you came out of nowhere and discredited the read is not likely to come from a town player

The fact of the matter is I started to consider possibilities and forming reads when I questioned Sakura, it's up to her to continue the dialogue.

er......... lol?

where did you question Sakura about anything at all? first, you came out nowhere to disagree with her. after that, she

did not respond any further

. you did not seem to notice that, however, and instead took no interest in continuing to question her over it.

like, this is everything you said about Gaiden:

Spoiler:

I don't see anything remarkably different between this game's gaiden and last game's gaiden.

Do you mean self voting.

Tbh I'm not going to find it when my mthod of comparison is activity and post length and tone

Mollie did I really trick you in to claiming masons with me f2f . good times if so ^_^.

@Pie. I didn't really "take a shit" on Mono's read. I offered my own opinion challenging hers or else taking one contrary to hers. I don't believe I should be required to agree with her / subvert my own opinion for hers when I don't see what she sees, and what difference she saw wasn't given as of yet.

Can I guess.

redirector. With the implication that MS redirected Pie to NS.

@Pie. I'm kinda tired right now and it's getting hard to see the problem here, but just because I'm not able to differentiate some as of yet unspecified difference between gaiden's scum game and gaiden's town game, strictly using the material between this game and the last touhou game, doesn't mean I'm unqualified to state that according to my specifications, using the same material, I do not see any difference in play. That does not mean that gaiden has to be scum because he was scum in the other game, but it does mean that citing a difference between play and using that difference to solidify a read should be regarded with some skepticism.

where did you question anyone anywhere in here? you did not question anyone, you just kept pushing that there was no difference. like, even if you didn't want to engage with Sakura for whatever reason, you never asked me either, and instead wrote a bunch of words to explain why you weren't engaging with her.

there is nothing here that indicates you are ~actually~ considering possibilities or forming reads. you are basically saying you were trying to form a read, and then went "oh lol, they didn't respond so I gave up", while continuing to avoid forming a read. how the fuck does that make any sense?

[pieguyn]

there is absolutely a scum motivation here: he wants to mislynch Gaiden sometime in the future, but he can't do that with Sakura sitting there hard defending him. so he tries to discredit the read in advance (that misrep is evidence of this). if you agree with what I've said up to this point, this also explains why he isn't ~really~ trying to form a read there, and instead side stepping around it

[pieguyn]

alchemist he's been calling town this whole time so i don't know where the hell you've been
i could have sworn he's the one that called nopoint "lynchbait" at some point
om i'm actually probably misremembering because wis was the principle pooh-pooher of that read

mm, I can agree with the first point

he was indeed the one who called NPIAU "lynchbait". however, I don't remember him doing much in the way of actually pushing that read (I had skimmed through his ISO and really didn't find any content related to NPIAU at all besides that one post, though I might have missed it). generally scum who go against the flow do so in order to gain town cred, and thus want to draw as much attention to it as possible.

just out of curiosity, when MS was scum, were most of the "contrary" reads he had on townies, or did he do that on his scum partners too?

[pieguyn]

the only reason I'm second guessing the Dan read is that as soon as me/Wisdom voted him, we immediately got sheeped by a bunch of people, as opposed to the Alch/NPIAU wagons which took a while to build. I don't ~think~ this is a problem unless I'm wrong on one or more of {DOAA, Sakura} (which fwiw I have not completely ruled out yet) and I don't particularly have much success with this kind of logic pre-flip, but it is noted at the very least.

[pieguyn]

I'm not staying away from you. did I miss a post somewhere?

I'll reread how the Alch wagon went. NPIAU was just me and Anti, iirc. it wasn't around for that long

[pieguyn]

errrrrrr

if that's the case, I wasn't aware of it. generally, when I see you addressing me, I reply. what do you wanna talk about? ._.

[pieguyn]

then we agree \o/

[pieguyn]

oh also, one last thing bc I haven't liked anything Ank did today either:

Sigh. I wasn't getting scumvibes from any of Feifwitch's posts until the meltdown just now.

Intent to vote/hammer here pending vote count. I'm not counting votes on a tablet.

just fucking do it. this is the last post im making in this game.

alright

VOTE: Jakuzure

I first thought Ank was town for this. the reasoning here is that this is such a shit-looking stance to take on the main wagon of the day "hurrdurr I thought he was town but now he's scum". however, I'm sure any reasonably self aware scum would realize this, and it happened after the hammer; so, as scum, he has literally no reason to ever bother posting this and in turn make himself look really bad. the alternative, that he's town and believes this, is more believable

there are caveats to this, e.g. if the double voter is a traitor, but there's not much of a reason to worry about that right now

I said "townslip" bc I think it's ridiculously unlikely scum would even think about it from this angle. anyway, will be back later

[pieguyn]

yo mollie, what do you want to talk about?

[pieguyn]

facepalm

this game is starting to give me cancer

[pieguyn]

am I the only one who thinks haj flaking is coming from a POV of "fuck, I faked a guilty and was wrong. I don't feel like playing this game anymore"?

[pieguyn]

MOD: unlimited VLA until further notice. computer might have died on me -.-

[pieguyn]

curiosity

[pieguyn]

Hey, so I realize that everyone thinks Unzan is a scum ability, but I have mod-confirmed information that it is a town ability.

you should really just go ahead and out it. I find it impossible to believe a town player would quickhammer using a hidden double vote.

also, if you're trying to make me doubt myself, you're way too late

well, whenever i've brought up sakura as scum, pieguy rises to the occasion and insists she's town

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

believe me, just to be sure (bc I don't trust any of my reads and this is the one read I absolutely want to get right) I have reevaluated that read (as well as the mollie read) about 4 or 5 times over the course of the past week or so, since everyone seems to disagree with me. my conclusion has not changed.

this is gonna turn out the same way regardless, but if you really really really ~really~ want, I can fully explain my read and erase all your hopes and dreams. y/n

[pieguyn]

actually fuck it, I'm library/mobile only and I wanna get this done while I actually have PC access

DISCLAIMER1: I am the person in this game with the most experience at reading Sakura. a lot of this is based off meta which, if you are reading this, you will not understand/have known about. if you are going to argue with me over this after specifically requesting it (and this is not meta I would usually out, *ever*, since it gives insight in the arms race in how to play ahead of your meta as scum), I really have no words aka you all can suck it
DISCLAIMER2: I'm not spoilering this. you all can suck it

This took forever.

Sakura's initial catchup wall is actually one of the posts that I kind of look sideways at even after reading it 4 or 5 times. there are a lot of things in there that don't exactly accomplish much, which makes me worried that it's a scum wall that's designed to look like it's accomplishing something when it really isn't - there's a lot of one-liners, comments on past posts that were not as relevant at that time, etc.

however, after a lot of deliberation, I do not think this is scummy. from a meta standpoint, Sakura does not have a fixed method of catching up in games. she will sometimes not read anything, other times read everything but not comment on everything, however in some situations she will do a catchup that looks similar to this. she has also previously posted walls that are basically the exact same as this as town on an alt (Saki Mafia). so I do not believe this post particularly falls outside the behavior space of her town game. (that's not to say I think she's town for this post, just that this is one of the posts I disliked the most, and I would imagine others feel the same as me, but for anyone who didn't like it, it is not a scummy post)

also, do you have any other scumreads?

Oh yeah, you're my other scumread, aside from that nothing else has pinged me too much yet (Something Om said way earlier on is still bugging me tho)

what was the thing that Om said that bugged you? and what are your thoughts on mollie?

Something about his reaction to a reaction or something of the sort, tho I was hurrying in my catchup i dont remember if it was mollie, om or beeboy but something like that.

this is the first thing from her that I liked. the reasoning here is very basic; the same Om post bugged me too, although I didn't point it out in thread. I believe scum Sakura would be less likely to invent something out of nowhere like this while she was in the process of faking reads, and the fact that it was actually a reasonable observation is another point in its favor. now, this obviously isn't much of a tell on its own; however, it is the first of a long line of subtle things that are more likely to come from town that, when I add them all up, make me believe her play this game is coming from a consistently town mindset.

do you think Kagami believes that angle about "who are my partners"? it looked fake to me and I think she would have at the very least at least one better idea than pushing an associative before the actual flip.

I would respond to this, if i had an actual answer, If it looked fake to me she'd be Null-Scum rather than null and if it looked genuine she'd be Null-Town, so short answer is I dont really know.

Spoiler: Long answer

Her angle seems to be genuine but the way she's pushing it seems to be fake, i dont know if im making myself clear with this, it's like she's pushing it way harder than it should, when at best it should be something null on beeboy's part, and I dont like how she didnt like what Dreams said afterwards earlier, it seems like she's trying too hard, but then it reminds me of her previous games with me too so >_> I'm having a hard time with this one.

this is...... really the only thing from her that I dislike, and it's bc it feels like it was forced, that is, she was trying too hard in order to come up with something I'd like. however, considering things from a meta standpoint again, this again does not fall outside the space of behaviors I would expect from her as town. Sakura and I are pretty strongly connected to each other offsite, and moreover, she was about to quit mafia and only stayed bc we agreed to hydra for a game (which I ended up flaking in -.- pieguyn least reliable hydra partner 2015), so I do not find it too unbelievable that she was just reaching for a reason just so that I would have something to comment on, just bc she specifically wanted ~my~ opinion on it.

Feidra, Kagami, Jingle, Nperson.
Currently I have scumreads of varying degrees on the first 3, and i wouldnt have any issue voting the 4th either. Kagami was courtesy of pie for making me see the light.
P-Edit
I'm cool with that.

Unvote
Vote: Kagami

this post is not important by itself. I'm footnoting it for later

About that push, it's even more funny when you think that.
She's calling you scum because your posts are toxic
She modded Hope+1
In Hope+1 there were a lot of toxicity
Mostly made by town.

That's why i made that post right before i went to sleep.

this was a very good observation, I liked it a lot

Oh please, like you're hard to read at all, I correctly townread you on both Ikaruga (despite MS thinking of the contrary) and Dark age of the Law, and there was your scum game on Chain of Command where you flaked and replaced out.
From my PoV there's no mistaking that this activity and motivation comes from town you.

generally, I wouldn't expect scum who feel the need to buddy someone to be so upfront in response when they're called on it. there's a genuinely open "no shit, it's not ~that~ hard to figure out you're town" mindset here that I think is more likely to come from town.

From what i think, he tried to use AtE to get townread then when wis used it to attack him he turned it into a nulltell, a town fei would just continuing to AtE without ever mentioning it being a nulltell.
That's imo.

hunting for motivation = always a plus. and yeah, you might say "scumhunting isn't a town tell", but it takes a lot of skill to ~actually~ make legitimate, motivation-based observations as scum as opposed to more shallow observations, and this was a legitimate observation

Well sorry but i didnt bother reading the signature on that post, I'm kinda mad because mollie has been ignoring the whole game while focusing only on the Nacho side of my hydra like I don't even exist, maybe i should have come solo so Nacho wouldn't have to catch up on a 1500+ post game, and mollie would actually read me instead. But no Nacho's busy he said he didn't feel like catching up today, he only read like 1-2 pages when he posted and that's it, if you're not happy with that then deal with it. I told him about you but by then he didn't reply.

Now i know why Brian Skyes lashed out at me when i wanted to read notty.

this isn't important by itself, but it comes into play again later. this is basically the start of a trend of frustration that spans the entire game, which winds up becoming insanely genuine by the end; this is here to demonstrate that the later posts aren't just scum faking frustration to get townread and that it indeed fits with the rest of her play.

Unvote
Vote: Jingle

Back to this I suppose, I still don't see pie-scum... and now i dont see Kagami-Scum either...
Which means imma have to revise my reads...

Whyyy.
Her latest posts sound like genuine sentiment.

What's the actual probability about Kagami being scum? I liked her latest posts, but everyone keeps saying she's scum...

OK

so, scum Sakura has several options she could have taken in response to the whole me vs. Kagami shitstorm that happened. at this point, she can either continue to push Kagami, back off and push me instead, do something else entirely, or do anything in between. I believe that scum Sakura would be more likely to continue pushing Kagami as opposed to backing off, for several reasons. first off, from a general POV, there is the issue of Kagami being the main wagon, and there not being any good reason to back off her. while it's not unfakeable by any means, I take the backoff here as a point in her favor. additionally, she didn't bother to push me either, which would have been the alternative path of least resistance. the alternative, that she is town and willing to stick with he townread on me while not feeling good about Kagami-scum anymore, makes more sense; there is a distinct lack of scum motivation in the way she handled it.

second, pulling up this post again:

Feidra, Kagami, Jingle, Nperson.
Currently I have scumreads of varying degrees on the first 3, and i wouldnt have any issue voting the 4th either. Kagami was courtesy of pie for making me see the light.
P-Edit
I'm cool with that.

Unvote
Vote: Kagami

it is clear that, if she was scum here, her intent when handling the Kagami push was to buddy me, notably with the "courtesy of pie for making me see the light" (ofc there's also the general idea of her agreeing with me on a crucial read). so, where's the followup on it? that's the point, there was none. I don't exactly think she would attempt to buddy me and then immediately go "nope, you're wrong" a bit later when she could have continued it without any problem at all, especially with no reason greater than Kagami's posts feeling genuine.

So, basically Kagami is calling out pie on a scumtell that never happened in order to get pie lynched, yet that wasn't even a scumtell to begin with?

Unvote
Vote: Kagami

I shouldn't have ever have left this wagon.

usually I would say the conviction when she moved back on was misplaced, given the reasoning behind it was kind of sketchy, but again, from a meta standpoint, Sakura and I are pretty good friends offsite. that turns this into something that is slightly town at best and absolutely null at worst, since it makes sense she would get pissed off at someone trying to lie to get her friend lynched.

Besides, the whole reason i'm hydraing is because i want someone to be there for me in case i get another emotional outbreak, but if i knew this was gonna happen i wouldn't have bothered...

Meh, im just gonna go to sleep before I explode, because everytime mollie posts i feel like i wanna throw my pc through the window

<- can confirm that her explanation here is correct; I can also, at the very least, get where her frustration is coming from. by itself, it wouldn't be that good, but the overall trajectory across the entire game from where it started to how it built up to here makes me feel good about it, I would be kind of impressed if she thought to consistently fake all that as scum.

how the hell is this acceptable?

It is not

Unvote
Vote: Saki

Sorry Saki but im not going to let you coast to endgame like Ikaruga again.

Let's start with the fact that i didn't think your posts in Ikaruga were townposting, specially that attack on Rach when Rach was being obvtown all game. The reasoning im telling you to just do it instead of asking me it's because I currently am leaning town on you, and I think it's better for everyone that you start posting and getting involved, and also because I hate it when ppl spend days not using their vote nor discussing, It's one of the main weapons for players in Mafia and you should know that.

Unvote
Vote: Om

Pretty sure i still need to vote from here.

the dance with Saki was something that I generally liked; I liked the way she went about it for hte most part, e.g. the part where she told Saki to try townposting instead of asking her before outing her opinion of it, as well as how she questioned him about NPIAU. I also liked the way she backed off. from a meta standpoint, scum Sakura generally does not have a problem pushing lynches through in spite of evidence to the contrary, and I think it is likely she would have taken a similar approach with Saki here - the fact that her mindset was instead "pushing him for content to judge" as opposed to "pushing to lynch him", imo, was a good sign. as an example of this, there was an offsite game where she was scum, I derailed a scum lynch (as it was the person I was pushing a lynch on was a different scum), and then due to a mod error the person I was derailing the lynch off of got lynched and flipped scum. she came in D2 pushing a lynch on me really really hard, ~ENTIRELY~ based on BOP for derailing one lynch that would have been on scum - her mindset was not even remotely trying to figure me out. that is the kind of thing I think her mindset as scum here would be more similar to, given there is not exactly much room for Saki to defend himself.

part of the reason I think Saki is town has to do with this - I'm fully aware his thoughts on this issue are basically aligning with mine. additionally, the fact he didn't post anything and then came out of nowhere to step up and show is evidence, is something I think is more likely to come from town who are lurking and don't feel particularly strongly about anything except the thing they're pointing out. but anyway:

I rather change my vote now since idk when ill have time for this, which of the 2 do you think i should vote?

Thanks a lot for replying to this curiosity, it's really appreciated.

Unvote
Vote: Jingle

The Sakura Hana head of the Mononoke hydra is V/LA for an indefinite ammount of time.

this was a completely random potshot that I don't think she has any reason to bother making as scum. however, given her situation offsite (it probably is not worthwhile to elaborate on this, so don't ask), it makes a lot more sense that she would spontaneously get frustrated at smth as trivial as this as town.

Wtf, no, Gaiden is town.
Gaiden scumplay is very different.

speaking of town who don't feel strongly about anything, but have a few things they feel strongly about, this is one of them. I liked the way she came out of nowhere to alert everyone they were on the wrong track with Gaiden - as I said before, it's the mindset of town who can't put much effort into the game, so they have to focus their effort on the things they feel best about. additionally, I think as a result of this I'm starting to learn how to read Gaiden better myself, since I've picked up on a few differences between his town/scum games - not that it really means anything, but it makes me feel kind of better about it

and if it's really necessary, I can confirm that she generally has a good track record at reading Gaiden, so there is not much reason to question this as a fact (ofc, she will fake the process of forming a Gaiden read as scum, but the point is that she is indeed capable at reading Gaiden regardless of what her alignment is, and is thus not lying about it)

2 more things:

1. on a body of work level, she has in general been proactive, forming reads, and pushing opinions in a way that makes me think she is legitimately trying to game solve. she has also been here for most of the major events of the game. while scum can fake that, when it's done to the extent here, I think it's more of a town trait than a scum trait - it takes a lot to consistently keep that kind of effort up as scum 100% of the time.

2. Sakura is not perfect at replicating her town game. when she ~is~ scum, certain posts will generally come across as very forced. the only thing she has done this game that has felt even slightly forced are those 2 posts I brought up right at the start, and there are compelling enough town explanations for both of them that I'm not particularly worried in either case. besides that, there has not been anything, which I am taking as another sign she is town here.

posts I did not comment on = null. (aka, as I said, I am not leaving out anything I feel might have been scum indicative just for the purpose of making this case.) I hope you all at least use this shit well instead of continuing to let yourselves get wrapped up in "omgomg Sakura is scum" every fucking time you all consider reads.

[pieguyn]

now I'm going to go work on my HW because I wasted an hour and a half doing that

and if anyone wants me to go into any more detail about any of this,

I would be more happy to provide it

fuck off

[pieguyn]

Please just trust me? It makes perfect sense if you're sitting where I am knowing the information I know.

no

there is a lot of benefit to outing it. UNZAN basically quickhammered. there is no town motivation for that. thus, if UNZAN ~is~ town, there is a very huge misconception everyone seems to agree on about this gamestate; outing it would clear that up and help everyone in the game as a result.

moreover, I think this is the kind of thing you'd use to mist as scum, e.g. by saying they're town and then when you reveal the reason 3 days later it doesn't actually work. I might be wrong, but outing this would sure as hell make me (and probably everyone else) feel a hell of a lot better.

moreover, your slot is in a very bad situation in general

this is not a situation where it is worthwhile to withhold this

Also, pie, I've skimmed your defense. I'll give it a well and true, proper read later. But while the post does a wonderful job of showing why you have the townread, it's not doing anything to instill one in me, at least on the skim.

if you are going to say this, you are basically saying that the reasoning I use for my reads is flawed on a fundamental level. is that what you are saying? bc if it is, I honestly do not give a shit what you think unless you explain why it's wrong

[pieguyn]

Well, no, not really. ScuMastin tends to give as little info as possible...not enter the game and immediately, before having read anything aside from like ten posts total that she read before getting the role PM, give out a rather controversial piece of information that'd do nothing but draw attention to her.

I don't particularly disagree with this, but I still think it'd be way better for everyone if you just outed it.

What? How do you get that from what I said? I said, on a SKIM, that it didn't do anything for ME. Skim. Me. Key words, there.

fair enough. I just feel like this shit happens all the time when none of the reasons behind any of my reads resonate with anyone at all and I felt like you were setting up to discredit me later by drawing attention to that.

what I meant to say was when you do read it, if you disagree, I want to know which points you disagree with and why

[pieguyn]

I could see haj's flaking coming from a POV of expecting to get flashlynched. I've seen newbies do more blatant shit as scum (e.g. Ikaruga where Ki-Gi unceremoniously quickhammered and then admitted to being scum)

I don't particularly think "we can't lynch Dan bc mastin said so" is a good line of thought when mastin has a very good chance of being scum with him. in fact I think the game makes a lot of sense with Alch-town mastin/Dan-scum given the way the wagons are right now. mastin really needs to claim what's going on with UNZAN, then we go from there.

[pieguyn]

so what do you think her of nk analysis?

fwiw, I will say I'm trying to reset my reads (my stick in the rock is Sakura and possibly you as town) and I'm finding DOAA is getting POE'd out pretty quickly. he does make a lot of sense as mafia, now that I think about it

[pieguyn]

TOWN (S->W):

Curiosity

<gap> purple, Sakura, mollie <gap> Saki, Gaiden, Alchemist
{beeboy, Time, DOAA, Om, beast}
SCUM (W->S): Ankamius, mastin, BOP <gap> Dan

^list of reads right now without bias/role related info/interactions/etc. based on role info I would ~probably~ move Time up. at this point I'm mostly trying to make sure I'm not going wrong on any of my town reads anywhere. I don't even remember another time my reads up to this point have been so wrong :/

[pieguyn]

i was your town top read.......

:'(

pie how could you lose faith

hey, I usually don't reevaluate my reads unless there's a reason to. in this case, there was

[pieguyn]

I really feel like these night kills point to mollie, which would be hilarious. that's literally the only reason I can think of for these kills that makes any sense (especially the Jingle kill), given notsci knows her really well and Jingle was paranoid of her. I don't think she's scum though

[pieguyn]

PIEGUY

i have to ask you sojmething

which ones is scummier
actiondan or beeboy?

<3
still feeling sure its Dan. the thought process he was displaying earlier was obviously faked, and nothing he's done this game is actually town motivated

and fwiw, I wouldn't mind at all if you claimed. in my experience, it is generally better to clear things like this up sooner than later.

[pieguyn]

but if u guys seriouly want to lynch between the neighbours today id rather go with beeboy and stay the hell away from the dan wagon

I find this ~very~ interesting, for a reason I'll get into later.

how did you go from thinking Dan could be scum and even voting him previously, to here?

[pieguyn]

pieguy u break my heart

(((MS)))

[pieguyn]

HEY MASTIN AND PIEGUY

please come in here and tell me AAAAAAAALLLLLLLLLLLLLLL about how completely staying 100000 feet away from any wagons that might actually go to lynch is town

BECAUSE IT'S SO TOWN TO AVOID ACCOUNTABILITY

RIGHT?

Im on ipad and havent read yet but i will say, the Om post I pointed out as interesting does implicate him, mastin, and Dan all at once. I could probably sheep you.

[pieguyn]

beeboy switch set off major alarm bells i only jut got around to mentiong that oops

also yea i admit im partly sheeping mastin here

but srsly idk man the whole town wanting to lynch dan but the lynch not actually coming through just sounds bad to me and i do not want to be a part of this

...... why is this remotely a town trait?

like, really? you have this backwards. which wagon is more likely to stall, a wagon scum will happily push through, or one that the scum (4-5 votes) are all staying off?

[pieguyn]

also your first reason is weak as hell. I don't really buy it. prob going to do some cross referencing later

[pieguyn]

VOTE: PIRATE MOLLIE

I am taking any attempt to line Sakura up for lynch without first addressing my case as a scumclaim. you claim I've been ignoring you all game? (which I haven't been doing, btw, and if I was I sure as hell didn't mean to) here you have a very good chance to interact with me and you're not taking it.

[pieguyn]

btw mollie, you need to understand Nacho hasn't even been here this entire game

making 2 posts, none of which have anything in them != being engaged with the game in any way. you can make a few random posts without having any focus in the game at all.

also do not make me spam that entire case until it gets addressed, because I ~will~ fucking do it

[pieguyn]

what do you think of pie's giant sign to vote me? cos it is shitty.

you are saying this to a mason

seriously, talk to me about why you think she's scum

[pieguyn]

where did I ignore you?

because if I did I ~really~ didn't intend to. either I wasn't aware you wanted me to respond to something or I missed it. I generally don't ignore anyone unless there is a reason to.

[pieguyn]

Unofficial VC:

Alchemist21 (3): Ankamius, UNZAN, mastin2
mastin2 (4): Saki, Time, Alchemist21, Birds of Prey
Dreams of an Absolution (1): Om of the Nom
ActionDan (4): pieguyn, Curiosity, Mononoke, beeboy
Om of the Nom (2): Dreams of an Absolution, purple hero
Mononoke (1): pirate mollie

Not Voting: SXTLHGaiden, beastcharizard, ActionDan

[pieguyn]

because I do. but I DO pay attention to you as well and so far you are coasting.

OK see, the thing with this is

Sakura's offsite situation is very busy. I can't deny her activity has been low, but in this particular case she is not exactly in a situation where she can think a lot and devote a lot of effort towards mafia. so this isn't scummy for her

and despite that, she has still showed up to give her opinions when she has them. when everyone was talking about Gaiden she was there to alert everyone that was wrong, and the same thing happened with Anti. this is, on a general level, what town do when they have no time for the game, and it applies in this case as well.

[pieguyn]

vote: Dan

[pieguyn]

I am totally flummoxed as to why any1 would want town!gaiden around. *sarcasm*

or beeboy.

and, as I said, <- can confirm that she generally has a good track record at reading Gaiden and will defend him when she has a town read on him.

I don't think the sheer fact that she is defending him is a town tell - she will (and has) faked the process of her forming a Gaiden read - but the point here is that this is not scummy for her. what I find to be a town tell is the way she actually went about it; it looks like town who is disengaged from the game and is not putting a lot of effort in, so they have to focus their attention on the things they feel most strongly about.

regardless, even if you disagree, it's not a scum tell

[pieguyn]

disagree

*disagree with the way she is handling it coming from a town POV

[pieguyn]

believe me, I am being very careful to notice if she does start actually coasting. however, given her RL situation, I am not expecting her to post a lot if at all, and what she's been doing while she ~has~ been here has been good enough in my eyes to make me not worry about it

[pieguyn]

Unofficial VC:

Alchemist21 (3): Ankamius, UNZAN, mastin2
mastin2 (4): Saki, Time, Alchemist21, Birds of Prey
Dreams of an Absolution (1): Om of the Nom
ActionDan (4): pieguyn, Curiosity, Mononoke, beeboy
Om of the Nom (2): Dreams of an Absolution, purple hero
Mononoke (1): pirate mollie

Not Voting: SXTLHGaiden, beastcharizard, ActionDan

(expired on 2014-11-16 15:10:00)

[pieguyn]

why am I the only 1 voting sakura

probably because she isn't ~actually~ coasting. you're basically pushing this lynch on what is entirely RL circumstances, without regard to how town she was when she actually was here.

sorry if this is blunt, but as it stands, I will not allow it to happen.

[pieguyn]

And because I've had just about enough of this

I and pie have information that AD is 99% scum.

No, I won't talk about what it is. But you can fucking trust us. There's a reason we insist on lynching him today.

~Wis

Bullshit. Pure and utter. Im going to take the 5 min before i get laid on vla to call this

A STEAMING PILE OF BULLSHIT

You wanna strongarm a mislynch by being obstinate. Go ahead and be bad. You try to pull this fake info shit thay you claim to revile ypu can get blacklisted

#scumflail

[pieguyn]

I'm trying to tone read mastin this game and I think her posts sound really fake. however, I will straight up admit I have no idea how to read her, and I'm bad at reading tone to begin with.

I do have one question, though.

@mastin:

are you ever going to get around to look at the first page of beeboy's ISO (you know, more than 90% of his posts)?

[pieguyn]

hey GIF, can I phone a friend? or use another lifeline? I need to get this sorted out sooner than later before I end up going full lol tunnel again.

[pieguyn]

btw I will elaborate on why that one Om post was interesting when I get back to comp

[pieguyn]

You say masons and neighbors happens a lot. Well shit. Show me.

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=45635 TH upick 2, me/notsci were masons, Feirei/Varsoon were neighbors

that's the only game I remember, but it's not at all hard to put both in the same setup

[pieguyn]

OK

the thing that bugged me about Om basically goes like this: as soon as mastin replaced in, a certain set of players in this game flip flopped on certain key reads in a way I believe might be alignment indicative.

i have this strangest conspiracy theory of ms/pie/wis/+x (possibly haj) scumteam

ms+mollie+Alch+npiau/Dan could be quite possible

also non-americano here

ugh fine
VOTE: danno

Beeboys town, I think

Dan is probscum
Om is scum, I think and Saki is to, I think

tbh im at a point where i basically disagree with every read there except the dan scumread

here he lists Dan as prob scum, votes him, and makes no mention of beeboy in his scum list. then he switches to staying the hell away from the Dan wagon, entirely based on beeboy's switch. then he justifies it with "I can tell when a mislynch is going to happen", when for the most part he wasn't regarding beeboy as scum at all until just now.

I also don't like the way he was sheeping mastin when mastin didn't even look at 90% of beeboy's posts, as indicated by her only commenting on the 2nd page of his ISO. that seems like a very unnatural situation where it would be worthwhile to sheep someone, given that someone had just replaced in and not even read a majority of the game. if he is town, the way he switched was excessively random and it is clear he's just pushing whatever he feels like at the time, which I am not ruling out because some people play like that, but I still think the reasoning here was p bad and slightly more likely to come from scum.

moreover, Ankamius did something similar. he has generally been very quiet, but now he has suddenly started pushing beeboy as scum relatively hard, defending mastin, and pushing the idea that the composition of the mastin wagon is bad.

there ~may~ have been some other people who did this, I need to go back and check, but you may ask where I'm going with this. the conclusion?

One of the things I was looking at and was going to explain to the neighborhood but ran out of time/died was if you cross reference falcons and mastin's reads, bro and pasch came out looking like partners.

Falcon was distancing and had them as scum. Mastin came in and moved them both to town. Bro suddenly dropped his scum read of that slot when mastin replaced in.

I was getting there with that and did the research on falcon as scum, but didn't get to finish.

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=54&t=35988
this was a game where mastin replaced into a scum slot and a very similar dynamic happened; the scum team, who was all bussing each other, almost immediately flip flopped on all of their reads on each other and started defending each other instead.

I think it's very possible we are witnessing the same thing here. I'm not exactly going to push this now when we don't have any flips, but if any 2 of {mastin, Dan, Om} flip scum, the 3rd should be flashlynched, and atm I'm throwing in Ank for good measure.

[pieguyn]

Spoiler:

SAKURA:

Blow a horn and make a callout to Nacho. Tell him one thing, and one thing only.
Mastin is here.
And she wants his help.

Nachomamma8:

Doesn't have to be much. My iso's not that long. Pick up the key points of the key points, and say them in your own words.

This frustration regarding the doublevote doesn't feel natural either. Why are we supposed to believe her anyway?

Because I SAID so, dammit!

Mastin is defending two scum so far. Maybe pie is right about her

Aaand, when via a combination of nightkill and lynch we continue to one after another turn up town?

Om is town. Period.

Dan is town. Pretty dang sure.

Bullshit, this is quite an oversimplified and forced thought process

Like hell it is.

That was the EXACT dang thought process I used in AP's Micro.
Y'know.
Where I was a neighbor.
TOWN neighbor.
And instantly started 'crumbing...yep. MASON.

YOU WERE IN THAT GAME; YOU SAW IT THERE.

You know I'm right.

Dan is town.

these are the posts that bugged me about mastin btw. the first one looks like scum trying to discredit someone, and re: the 2nd one, I have a lot of trouble believing any town player who is reasonably competent would fail to consider the obvious fact that not only would scum-Dan fake his town neighbor thought process as a scum neighbor, but there IS actually scum motivation for attempting to do so, which I pointed out earlier. someone who is better at reading mastin than me should prob let me know if I'm going wrong here

[pieguyn]

the difference is that haj is complete shit at this game and has literally no idea how mafia works, whereas Wisdom, or any half-competent town player for that matter, does

if the result he has is wrong, something went terribly, terribly, ~terribly~ wrong.

[pieguyn]

not to mention Dan's reaction to it was fucking ass. he naturally jumped to the conclusion that the result was "bullshit" without considering any other possibilities at all. if a claimed mason gets a result on you, and said mason is not haj-tier at this game, the logical conclusion is not to assume they're faking a result, it's to assume there might be some weird bullshit going on. the approach he took, on the other hand, looks like scum who just want to make the person with the guilty look worse than them.

[pieguyn]

btw the reason I changed my read on haj has nothing to do with the fact mastin replaced in. it's bc in general I realized most of my reads were rather shit and tried to do a reset. haj ended up being one of the reads I reversed (along with DOAA and some others)

also, all of my paranoia about mollie is officially gone

[pieguyn]

the valid points are that i have instilled doubt in me due to the numerous fake claims and soft claims riddled throughout the game, and the fact that you alone have pushed both major lynches on town

you're aware Wisdom was fighting the Jakuzure lynch really really hard, right?

[pieguyn]

also, I don't understand why Wisdom and mollie are getting 100% of the hate for the Kagami lynch. I had as much of a hand in that as they did, so pushing the blame entirely on them is unfair.

[pieguyn]

You should know by now that I usually ebb and flow in games. I'll have a time where I'm active and then just fade into the background for a few days (mainly because this is me in virtually every osu!mafia game I play in). This is true regardless of alignment.

If that made my reads unclear, then make a case on them. I have reasons for all of them.

it's not really about that; it's about the overall narrative. if mastin replaces in and then your read happens to shift at that exact point, in a way that is very similar to what mastin's teammates do in response to her joining their team and telling them to defend each other, then it is worth noting regardless of how you otherwise play

btw I think your reasoning on Alch is bad. what is important about the fact that Alch only agreed with 2 of Jingle's reads? it's pretty obvious the mindset there is that he agreed on the most important and pressing reads in the gamestate at that time, and felt strongly about it, as opposed to focusing on sheer numbers.

[pieguyn]

^the above is a legit rolefish, btw

[pieguyn]

I don't actually feel very strongly about you being scum. the only thing that ~actually~ pinged me was the way you flip flopped on the Dan wagon.

p-edit: re: Om

[pieguyn]

Shift from what? I literally have never once posted a single read on haj this game that I know of. You'll have to show your work here too, because I have literally played only one game with mastin where we were both alive at the same time, and it's in a game where her entire presence in that game was erased due to a forum crash.

it's like you didn't even read my post that you initially responded to.

the point was, there was a previous game where mastin replaced into a scum slot and a similar dynamic happened - as soon as she replaced in she told everyone to stop bussing and start defending each other. the way you came out of nowhere to suddenly defend mastin and attack beeboy looks like you are following that kind of approach

as I said, I'm not really considering it as a good reason for anyone being scum at this point, but it is noted

You're completely missing the point re: Alch. He got a townread on Jingle from the following two reasons:
1. General town posting. <- completely useless and vague statement. You can use this kind of reasoning for anything and it would be useless.
2. He agreed with Jingle on Beeboy and Kagami <- vague statement, but less vague than the above. Keep in mind that Jingle posted reads on TWENTY PEOPLE. Singling out two and townreading him just for agreeing on those two reads sounds really fake. The fact that Alch was his second biggest scumread makes it even more suspicious.

yes, and what I am saying was Kagami was the major focus for all of D1. don't you imagine that someone agreeing with you on the most crucial read of the game would be more telling than agreeing with someone on a bunch of irrelevant reads?

[pieguyn]

i

[pieguyn]

you gotta be fucking kidding me. why is anyone leaving the Dan wagon? my case on him still stands; not to mention his recent play looks like scum who is just throwing as much "frustration" as possible in a last ditch effort to get townread. the way he is getting frustrated doesn't match at all with him previously not giving a shit at all about the wagon on him.

DOAA is also 95% town. their action actually does make sense, and scum DOAA really has no reason to bother gatekeeping Wisdom, which would have to be the case for Dan to be town. please don't fall for this shit.

[pieguyn]

Dan is confscum -> mastin is scum for irrationally defending him -> at least 1 scum in {Om, Ankamius} -> last scum if there are any left after this is prob beast

this is really fucking easy. please don't start second guessing yourselves now.

also, any town aligned jail keeper would not jail keep Dan. thus if Dan did actually get jailkept, both Dan and DOAA are scum. in either case, Dan is scum anyway.

[pieguyn]

read Wisdom's above post

[pieguyn]

The most likely explanation is that you were protected. (This is not an invitation for a doctor or doctor-type claim.)

NO IT FUCKING ISN'T.

THERE ARE ONLY A FEW POSSIBILITIES FOR WHAT HAPPENED:

1. Dan is bulletproof scum
2. there is a scum doc who protected Dan, in which case he's scum
3. Dan got jailkept. in this case, he is scum anyway and DOAA is also scum
4. Wis got jailkept <- scum DOAA really has no reason to forgo using this on a partner, and then claim he targeted the wrong mason anyway.

DID YOU MISS THE PART WHERE

DOAA CLAIMED TO JAILKEEP ME N2?

IT'S NOT THAT FUCKING HARD. QUIT TRYING TO COVER IT UP.

[pieguyn]

:facepalm Yo! Wisdom, any chance you might have overlooked a town doctor healing you since you know 90% of the game thinks you are conftown?

Mollie, I don't think Wisdom is scum. His play would be too boneheaded for scum.

1. THERE IS NOT A 1X BODYGUARD, GATEKEEPER, AND DOCTOR IN THIS FUCKING SETUP.
2. DESPERADO DEATH IS A PASSIVE DEATH SIMILAR TO HIDER. DOC PROTECTION CAN'T FUCKING STOP IT.

[pieguyn]

You should explain why I'm wrong instead of repeating what your mason partner said.

I FUCKING DID

if you seriously can't see this, you are a fucking idiot

[pieguyn]

Mod: Could a doctor heal a hypothetical death from a Desperado claim?

Pie, if a doctor cannot stop a desperado attempt from the attacker (Curiosity) then how could a scum doctor heal Action Dan?

ARE YOU FUCKING SERIOUS?

THE DESPERADO KILL ITSELF IS A STANDARD FUCKING KILL. OF COURSE A DOCTOR CAN SAVE FROM IT.

[pieguyn]

I AM SICK AND TIRED OF TOWNS WHO BLATANTLY IGNORE THE FUCKING FACTS AND INSTEAD FALL FOR WHAT IS NOT EVEN MEDIOCRE SCUMPLAY.

I AM THIS FUCKING CLOSE TO REPLACING OUT. GOD WHAT THE FUCK

[pieguyn]

Mod: Could a doctor heal a hypothetical death from a Desperado claim?

Pie, if a doctor cannot stop a desperado attempt from the attacker (Curiosity) then how could a scum doctor heal Action Dan?

ARE YOU FUCKING SERIOUS?

THE DESPERADO KILL ITSELF IS A STANDARD FUCKING KILL. OF COURSE A DOCTOR CAN SAVE FROM IT.

Which is it? It can heal or it can't.

JESUS. FUCKING. CHRIST.

AT NIGHT, A DESPERADO CAN KILL A PLAYER. THIS CAN FUCKING BE BLOCKED/PROTECTED/WHATEVER LIKE ANY. STANDARD. FUCKING. KILL.

HOWEVER, IF IT HITS TOWN, IT FAILS AND THE DESPERADO DIES INSTEAD AND NOTHING CAN STOP IT. THIS IS A PASSIVE ABILITY SIMILAR TO THAT OF A HIDER. IT IS A PASSIVE. FUCKING. ABILITY.

IT IS COMPLETELY SEPARATE FROM THE KILL. THIS IS NOT HARD TO UNDERSTAND.

[pieguyn]

I ALREADY FUCKING DID. NO ONE HAS COUNTERED MY DAN CASE OR ANY OF MY RECENT REASONS FOR HIM BEING SCUM.

[pieguyn]

AND I JUST LISTED OFF ALL THE FUCKING POSSIBILITIES FOR WHAT MIGHT HAVE HAPPENED LAST NIGHT AND GUESS WHAT? EVERY SINGLE ONE HAS DAN AS SCUM.

I DON'T SEE HOW THIS ISN'T FUCKING OBVIOUS.

[pieguyn]

i just dont think that pushing that angle confirms him as scum

Weak role death is passive too and can be stopped by a doctor.
Hider death is passive, but can't be stopped by a doctor because hider can't be targeted while hiding.
Methinks Desperado works like the weak role death.

since when can weak role death get blocked by a doctor?

regardless, it doesnt fucking matter because WE ALREADY HAVE A FLIPPED BODYGUARD AND A (VERY LIKELY) TOWN GATEKEEPER. I don't understand how this is not common sense to everyone.

[pieguyn]

http://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?tit ... ado_(Role)

The wiki seems to state that the Desperado's victim is just as vulnerable as the attacker and vice versa. There is no "nothing can stop it" at all.


Pie, your case depends on assuming 1 DOAA is scum and scumclaimed AND no town doctor healed conftown...Cool your jets.


Mollie, we can take a look at Curiosity tomorrow. I don't think he's conftown but I don't think we are tearing through that facade today. I tried that shit before in InuYasha mafia. Tearing apart bullshit conftowns is nearly impossible but I'll need your help to do it.

NO IT FUCKING DOESN'T. TELL ME WHERE THE FUCK IT SAYS THAT.

[pieguyn]

since when can weak role death get blocked by a doctor?

https://osu.ppy.sh/forum/t/240614 ~whistles~
There are probably a few other examples from actually MS, but i can't remember them atm, Medical Mafia Open comes to mind tho.

regardless, there absolutely can not be a doctor in this game based on what we already have

and yes, Dan's play is obviously scum

but people don't fucking realize that, and instead take evidence that might contradict how the roles played out as evidence Dan is town

it is shit play like that that frustrates me

[pieguyn]

A Desperado is a role that targets a player during the day in-thread to perform the following action on. If the target is scum (mafia), then their target is killed. If not, they die in a valiant "desperado" attempt.

That's the entire wiki text for desperado that's explaining the role.

It doesn't say "docs cannot heal".

no fucking shit, it doesn't have to say that. docs generally can't fucking heal roles that die via a passive ability
(the game Sakura linked is the first time I've seen otherwise)

moreover, there still can't be a fucking doc in this game on top of bodyguard/jail keeper

[pieguyn]

just saying, if I was modding a game I wouldn't allow docs to protect weak roles/cases like this at all. but fine

certainly you understand how I feel right now with Dan being obv scum and everyone looking like they're actually going to buy his and mastin's bullshit, despite the fact it's really obviously bullshit to anyone who would actually pay the fuck attention

/sigh

[pieguyn]

and there still can't be a fucking doc on top of a gatekeeper and 1x bodyguard anyway. there is just no way in hell

ofc, mastin and/or Ank will mist over this by calling DOAA scum

[pieguyn]

er, I never said this is role madness, nor do I think it is. Kagami flipped VT

and no, I am excluding a doctor IN THE SAME SETUP as BOTH a gatekeeper and 1x bodyguard. you just don't put that much protection in one setup.

p-edit: @Titus

[pieguyn]

I kinda wanted danny lynched on d1 but no1 helped.

and I kind of got distracted by kagami's play only to realize too late something amazing about her.

d3 seems to be when a lull happens and I feel like it is a time when town needs to congeal but I can't do that when there is a bunch of bs flying around and right now I wanna cut through the bs with a scythe.

eta: if danny and mastina are scum it not their bs that I am forced to buy. it is in the wake of haj's fakeclaim and them softclaiming a hard guilty.
eta: jingle did not flip bodyguard so I am confused about what you are saying.

/hug

what I'm worried about is mastin and Ank are trying to sit there misdirecting away from Dan, and everyone seems to be just eating it. that's what I was referring to with that. and yeah, if haj/mastin is somehow town, I'm really going to be fucking pissed.

btw bodyguard was one of Jingle's abilities, although it was limited (it only worked on Time)

[pieguyn]

ebwop: never mind what i said about Ank, i love you

[pieguyn]

ebwop: never mind what i said about Ank, i love you

<3

I don't sheep non-absolutes without being thorough first.

<3

[pieguyn]

..... jingle literally crumbed an inno at the start of D2

moreover, any town aligned player would have no reason to reject a free investigation on someone. like, fucking really?

[pieguyn]

..... jingle literally crumbed an inno at the start of D2

moreover, any town aligned player would have no reason to reject a free investigation on someone. like, fucking really?

I see rereading during the night.

I would reject a claim if I was worried about a framer.

you might disagree, but the fact of the matter is, 99% of the time a sentence like that is a crumb, and should be taken as such

sidenote: the logic you are using here is the logic that singlehandedly lost town the last game :p

[pieguyn]

not everyone plays the same way you do. just bc you don't crumb in that way does not mean no one else would (e.g. the "vig" from NY168) in this case, what he did is the textbook inno crumb and something 99% of players would establish as such.

[pieguyn]

Bah screw this im just gonna go to sleep, i have a headache...

/hug

[pieguyn]

I fucking told you all Saki was town \o/

btw Dan/mastin scum should clear Alch based on the way they attempted that momentum shift onto Alch today.

[pieguyn]

A

[pieguyn]

aw fuck yeah I got 5000

and with that, night

[pieguyn]

Not feeling mastin scum.

I swear to god, your play this game has been so ass backwards I want to call you scum just via BOP. you're aware this is the second time you're defending obvious scum without solid reasoning, correct?

[pieguyn]

i like this head more

Anti, we thought overnight with pie and we decided that what mastin was doing was trying to defend AD and bussing Alchemist at the same time. That way, he would gain "i replaced in and caught scum" ubercred, and it would give cred to AD too.

Find this plausible?

~Wis

that doesn't really fit in line of scum!mastina tho.

I think he is scum for entirely different reasons.

if mastin is scum, i think she went all-out with the defense. the entire scumteam might be in the townreads

yall will never read any pro scum player with this mindset.

there's 2 possibilities for what happened:
1. scum mastin comes in and megaderails the lynch off Dan onto a townie. what would the point of doing that in the most obvious way possible be? she would basically fuck over all of her credibility and make it obvious Dan and her are both scum. moreover, until we came out with the guilty, Dan might not have got lynched anyway.
2. scum mastin comes in and derails the lynch off Dan onto scum Alch. what happens here? she gains infinite cred, can continue defending Dan, and can just lead town to its death. it's also consistent with her trying to push that UNZAN (who is prob her) = conftown.

[pieguyn]

Hi, Pie. entertain me

idk how ;w;

also, to elaborate more on the previous post, part of the reason mastin is scum is that her defense of Dan was completely irrational and she is a competent town player. flipping that around, she is also a competent scum player. what competent scum player would go about that defense in the most obvious and counterproductive way ever?

[pieguyn]

VOTE: MASTIN2

[pieguyn]

so, for mastin to be scum, alch has to be scum to. Can we lynch the latter to see if your theory holds?

no. mastin is the lynch today

she was defending Dan for really bad and ass backwards reasons which any half competent town player should have known better than to actually believe. also, I didn't like the way she randomly took a potshot at my Sakura read, when she should know full well my Sakura read is going to be 100% solid. plus I have too many town reads elsewhere and haj was just shit

if she is town here, there is something seriously fucked up about this game

[pieguyn]

like, you're all saying that she needs the town-cred but she's done a few things that's counterproductive to that

pedit: then where will her town-cred that she needs be?

you fail to realize that, if it weren't for us having a guilty, Alch would have been lynched that day

that's where she (and Dan) would have gained all her towncred

but it didn't work, because we fucked it up

[pieguyn]

and you fail to realize that, my mindset was in a similar place to hers. am I just incompetent, or are we scum as well?

the difference is that mastin's reasoning is really fucking obviously faked. yours was not (I don't remember if you even posted it anywhere, but regardless, mastin's is still faked)

she thought Dan was town because the way he played this neighborhood fit what he did previously, and claimed there is "no scum motivation" for doing so. however, any half competent player would realize that scum Dan faking his town thought process is a scum motivation, but there is another scum motivation, which I had pointed out previously (being able to coast until he got caught, which might be endgame if there were no masons in the game)

this is also just one of the reasons she is scum, there are more (which we just listed out)

[pieguyn]

if she was scumdoublevoter, it would have been alot easier, and alot simplier to have kept it a secret. She also gains zero to no cred from outting as such, and is more likely to gain more suspicion from outting unzan out the way she did

hint: this is part of why I think Alch is scum with her

I thought about it a lot and her play D3, by itself, doesn't make much sense as scum lining up a mislynch. she, like, wouldn't make it any more obvious she and Dan were both scum. what does make sense? her setting up a power play to get her and her remaining buddies to survive to endgame.

[pieguyn]

also, you're placing burden of proficiency on her

BOP is accurate if you know how to apply it right

in this case, it's not even BOP, really. it's that the thought process she was displaying was fake and doesn't make sense for town. BOP has nothing to do with it

regardless, I honestly don't care if you disagree with my argument if you're just going to handwave it away without explaining why

[pieguyn]

yes

burden of proficiency is always a shitty way to solidify a read

I'd rather not wall theory with you, but this is objectively wrong

pedit: you're saying mastin should have known your read on sakura is legit because she knows you have good accuracy with her. You're saying she is stupid for calling dan town with the reasoning she gave,

and that it's forced

and that makes her likely scum

it's BOP

no, I'm saying

1. mastin essentially did the same thing Dan did with Sakura's read, except she was doing it with my read. why did she even bother posting that? her coming out of nowhere to take a shit on my Sakura read is weird as hell, especially when I outright stated in thread my read was solid.
2. the bolded is why she is scum in that thought process, not just the fact she was defending one scum. of course, the fact it was on scum makes it even worse in context, but fake thought processes are fake regardless.

[pieguyn]

do you actually defend the logic she was using, or just the conclusion she formed?

because as I was saying, the difference between you and her is that her argument was structurally incorrect, in a way that could very easily be interpreted as manipulative, and in a way I believe anyone who is actually thinking about the game should realize is incorrect

also the fact that she claimed that there was no scum-motivation means she didn't really even think the process throught, which makes it all the more legit

no, it indicates she was lying, which is exactly the point I am making

and if she really didn't think it through, sucks to be her then. the moment you're writing people off because they do scummy things as town, you've already lost the game.

[pieguyn]

pedit: if she really belives that there was no scum motivation for dan, would that really be lying?

er, no. I'm saying she was lying in order to push her town read on Dan and her scum read on Alch.

conclusion, how she got there, and why she believes it to be as such.

OK

in that case, you're defending something that's objectively wrong (by virtue of Dan scumflip and there existing scum motivation for Dan's mason claim), so I don't see the point in continuing this conversation

[pieguyn]

it's 15 alive/8 to lynch, right? that would make it L-3

although I should shut up bc I wasn't counting the votes either

[pieguyn]

btw mara, who are your current scumreads?

I'm asking cos there's like 7 people who are like 99% or conf-town. even discounting mastin's play this game, I have a lot of trouble putting the pieces together in a way that doesn't wind up with her as scum anwyay.

[pieguyn]

how does that list go? top = greater scumreads?

if so, why do you have mollie as scum?

also Time isn't an IC, nor was there much of a chance they could get NK'ed anyway.

[pieguyn]

like, I can see her-town doing all the things that she has been doing, but I feel like that, as the game goes on she has become less of a prescense, and less of a powerhouse, and that isn't what I expect from town-mollie who lives to later game

I think she's continued to be relatively active across the game. I also think she's had some genuine sounding posts recently and am taking the Dan interactions as another point in her favor. you're saying she's usually more active than this?

[pieguyn]

hey mastin

Saw the flip. Don't give a fucking damn.

if zmuffinman was here, what do you think he'd have to say about this?

[pieguyn]

btw, you should probably go ahead and claim what is up with this "mod-confirmed" double voter now. you didn't do it yesterday, either, despite like 3 or 4 people telling you to.

[pieguyn]

Unless Dreams claimed, again

this is why stream of consciousness catchups starting from 500 posts back don't accomplish anything :/

[pieguyn]

you this sara?
http://en.touhouwiki.net/wiki/Sara