Tales of You (Endgame)

[fferyllt]

Ffery - any early thoughts on Bork?

No crystal-shattering town-notes for me yet, but I wouldn't expect one quite so soon.

Re that other game, I think you were more concerned about my Deacon Blues posts than bork's as far as reading us early on. In fact, bork townslipped like a boss in one of his early posts but nobody in the game really noticed.

We both apparently got under your skin in non-alignment-indicative ways. The dynamics will probably be different in this game.

[fferyllt]

After the game empire pointed out a couple of reasons I should never had read ffery as scum past like the second page anyway.

I'm not giving you those reasons this game.

btw do you remember Nati scumreading you in NY 169? There was one hilarious geists crosspost where he and I reacted completely differently to one of your posts. I dunno if that does or should factor in to your RBD read.

Why aren't you giving me those reasons this game?

Well, not yet anyway. My base mood and involvement are different in this game. I hadn't really thought about the first few pages of Vesperia until I read this post, but you wound up eliciting a sort of kneejerk tell from me. That kind of town tell comes at a cost, and there aren't that many players at MS who see it for what it is anyway.

Also, I do remember that in NY169, and incidentally I feel so much like I did that game but I'm trying to not get as frustrated. What I figured, at the time and couldn't say, was that Red Wine was happening at the same time and I figured that Nati was a little more suspicious of me than he would have normally been due to him being my partner in that game. Red Wine was one of my better scum games, so it made a bit of sense to me that he would be a bit more cautious then.

Yeah, that makes a little more sense of both of your reads/behaviors in early NY169.

There's been that game and three more since then, and him even mentioning Too Many Heads doesn't make any sense. I still refuse to believe that's Nati. Not after how easily he was able to differentiate between my actual frustration in Attack on Titan and my fake attempt at frustration in Too Many Heads, and how easily he was able to read me as town in Tales of Vesperia.

I don't even know what my read on them is this game.[/quote]

[fferyllt]

I haven't seen anything from you that's obviously town but you said that you are time constrained for a week so I am willing to wait to sort you once I've seen you at full throttle. I can also misread your early play if I try to sort you too early as shown when I was spectating on the second Tales game but I don't think I'll read you incorrectly if I wait to see more content before reading you. You were easy to sort in NY169 for your early attack on Nacho. I had some residual paranoia because I so strongly disagreed with you about Pieguyn but that went away later as well.

Is there anyone else you think I should be reading strongly as town? Or anyone who I shouldn't be?

~ F-16

I'm more interested in the process than in the results at the moment.

[fferyllt]

How do you feel about cephvail?

I dunno where me other half,
Be at with his reads,
Our QT is mostly me,
Giving opinions on misdeeds

I think FoxHound be scummy,
Mostly for their tone,
Their content comes across flat to me,
It feels like a dull drone

It feels different from what,
Ceph was like in that large game,
But I don't know if his alignment,
Is why it doesn't feel the same

DV I dunno,
I haven't seen enough,
From what I've seen though,
I'm meh on his stuff

In that game, Ceph was hot and cold
based on what time he could spend
finals and holidays had their hold
And to their dictates his play would bend

I'm reluctant to use the meta tells
I've discussed elsewhen and elsewhere
By now Ceph should do quite well
at hitting those markers square

Null read he is and may stay a fair while
It will take something strong to move it
It's a read that must age in a barrel
With him, the demand is "prove it".

[fferyllt]

It feels like you are saying that if 3Dice is scum, there is probably one scum among the three of us but you are not sure?

I have Titan and Mastin as town and you as a fairly weak town read atm.

And no, I'm not assuming that one of you 3 are scum if 3dice is scum at all.

Also, you said you had an urge to mediate between townreads. Who specifically were you referring to?

~ F-16

Shouldn't be rocket science to figure out, but I am not going to say just yet.

[fferyllt]

LB, this was beli's post explaining why he thinks mastinssk is scum.

beli is scumreading him.

Do you know why?

mastin-town has kinda been my rock this game.

I do think her gladiator strat is crap, but I don't know. On one hand, me and meta are a fucking disaster.
On the other, like in walking dead I really felt I fucking knew it and just couldn't qualify and then too much of my time got caught up in soft defending metal sonic because metal sonic

-b

Ok I can't mobile so no quote cutting. Or apparently overriding shit autocorrect .

I hate mastin's attitude towards F/H and the logical fallacy that is painting Ceph's attitude towards her lynchability as independent of gamestate. The townmastin I know is smarter than that and I don't think mastin actually believes that harseshit this game, but false face must hide what false heart doth know .

Ffery is probably the only reason I havenae been lynched for dead wood pages ago, so I'll not vote mastin without her leave, but I'M WORKING ON IT.

I want to correctly lynch an ace of mastin's caliber so bad it's like I haven't peed in a month, though. I MUST HAVE THIS.

--DrunkBeli

[fferyllt]

Bro you're buying this shit?

[fferyllt]

Which, if AP is town, makes his observation a reasonable one. There's no one else in the game thread you're that amicable with.

Maybe. But after that back-and-forth with Bulbazak in that Micro game, I have an aversion towards interacting with players that I can sense will create a lot of noise if interacted with and too little content. But that was a Micro game and I don't care as much about getting into wall wars in smaller games.

then why are you interacting with me when it looks like I'm not going to produce much useful content toDay?

I have no idea how to answer a question like this or from what context you are bringing it up. I think I at least want all the active players on the same page as me (outside of the neighborhood, this is you, Titan, to some extent PV, and those in the neighborhood, I'm just interacting with them there). I have been trying to sync with the inactives as well when they show up but that's not very often. Like I said, if you are town, I want you on my side.

Ok. I want to be correct. It's not enough to be town. It's not enough to be on another town player(s) side. That's not how games are won.

You and Tammy earlier talked about me being arrogant in other games about my reads and not listening to other players' opinions. I think that was an oversimplification but putting that aside look at your own play in this game.

There's nothing fundamentally WRONG with the way apparently town players have some strongly differing reads and concepts of how the game is unfolding. You want to push a consensus lynch today, but there's really no guarantee that a bunch of town players getting together with scum in their midst are going to come up with the right consensus answer. And that's not really what you want. What you want is for town to follow your lynch answer.

I probably should trust your reads more than I do, but there's something off about this game and I'm wondering if it has something to do with the effect of such a large neighborhood. You could all be town. you may very well all be town. But it's creating a gap in the game data.

I had a town read on bork and I kept it all of day 1. The deadline danse macabre made me worry about nacho, but it's really hard to see him calling attention to himself so blatantly, like in that string of posts where every post was a back and forth vote between two players. He could have redirected the lynch without making nearly such a spectacle.

In what ways did you find it markedly different from NY169?[/quote]

Remind me of anything so blatantly and simultaneously opaque and transparent as the huge run of posts that were nothing but binary switches between voting two players, before dropping a player and adding another.

[fferyllt]

I think ffery might be scum :/

I'm finally breaking out of brainfreeze and you're scumreading me NOW?

You are breaking out of brain freeze? IDK why are you trusting BRO's read on me? Or is it just his comment about my gambit?

I'm trusting his logic not his read. And I'm trusting the logic solely regarding your gambit not starting off as a scum-mistake. You're still in my maybe-scum pile.

It just felt ridiculously hedgy when you quoted me and said I didnt call Nacho scum in that sentence when... I've been mostly calling them scummy all game.

Ok.

[fferyllt]

Not really, no. The reason is largely selfish, but I've no doubt there are townspeople with age limitations to their PR's.

Also assuming all the scum have age limitations to their roles, they already have at most, 8 people in this game who they know are adult/child while those who are town have at most, two

Can you explain the bolded?

[fferyllt]

If you were town and had the role to pick one of two players to die instead of you, how would you go about it? Think of how you'd do it as scum.

How did Orcunis do it?

If he didn't have strong scumreads or bother reading the game, why force the use of his ability? Statistically random picks are anti-town. Uninformed picks are basically the same.

It's like that late-day wagon on orcinus never happened in your world.

[fferyllt]

TICK TOCK MARA

[fferyllt]

gg scum.

This town. I dunno man. To the extent I sheeped, which most notably by taking JSU's AP read over my own, but not the only instance, I was wrong not to follow my own reads.

[fferyllt]

gg scum.

This town. I dunno man. To the extent I sheeped, which most notably by taking JSU's AP read over my own, but not the only instance, I was wrong not to follow my own reads.

OR YOU COULD'VE JUST FOLLOWED ME D3

That will probably never happen. :/

[fferyllt]

This town. I dunno man. To the extent I sheeped, which most notably by taking JSU's AP read over my own, but not the only instance, I was wrong not to follow my own reads.

Desp only backed off b/c of the inno.

Day 2 when he derped his result claim and I voted him. You talked me out of it, and I stayed with your read all the way to Kat's flip.

[fferyllt]

I'm done. Not bashing anyone. The game itself was toxic enough.

So many of my favorite people to play mafia with in this game. I dunno why it became so dysfunctional. Well, I do. And i think that's part of the takeaway for next time.

[fferyllt]

I think so.

"takeaways"

[fferyllt]

^^ to AP

[fferyllt]

I thought scum were going to try to get me/us lynched on day 2. I could feel the wheels turning.

[fferyllt]

I'm definitely taking a shot for every time in thread or dead PT that mastin called me cheeky scum.

Alcohol poisoning isn't pretty.

[fferyllt]

Then you still should have lynched us instead of Magenta. Regardless of your reads on us, you needed to lynch out of the CC before Lylo.

This.

It's math.

I don't play mafia like it's mathematical and probabilistic, not solely anyway. This was the math that was desperately needed to solve the game, though.

Same with AP vs Katsuki.

There's a middle ground between valuing reads foremost and valuing reported role info and gamestate analysis foremost. I sometimes find the sweet spot.

[fferyllt]

And there was no way you could have retracted the miller claim post-CC in a way that would have made it acceptable for you to be alive from a game theory perspective. Even if in this specific instance you were town, there's no reason not to lynch a CC'd miller claim unless there's reason to believe the setup would have multiple millers.

There was. But more importantly their play in so many other ways looked town to me.

I got a lot of things wrong this game, but my 3 inviolate town reads all turned out to be town.

[fferyllt]

AP vs Katsuki wasn't a thing because Desp/I had the result on AP that indicated katsuki was wrong. If anything, it should have been us vs. katsuki, which would have been wrong b/c of the role block.

And that's where you needed to consider that something was up with the night game.

[fferyllt]

There was. But more importantly their play in so many other ways looked town to me.

So you're saying that scum-muffin has never looked town to you, then?

Because that also has to hold true for you to justify not lynching the claim fuckup.

I wasn't reading muffin. I was reading Nati. Nati has fooled me before, but never to the extent of "oh hell yeah, he's town". he fools me just barely enough. or not.

[fferyllt]

There was. But more importantly their play in so many other ways looked town to me.

So you're saying that scum-muffin has never looked town to you, then?

Because that also has to hold true for you to justify not lynching the claim fuckup.

I wasn't reading muffin. I was reading Nati. Nati has fooled me before, but never to the extent of "oh hell yeah, he's town". he fools me just barely enough. or not.

Nati was in this game for more than 5 posts?

Yes. And it was all Nati at the point where I dug in and started fighting their lynch.

[fferyllt]

Can we just not.

Most of us played a shit game, myself included. Just learn from it and move on. Parts of the game were toxic enough, and a good number of us contributed to that.

How about instead of saying shit like this, you hold people accountable to their actions?

Serious question.

When I said in my giant rant that "everyone who isn't standing up to mastin for her emotional manipulation is complicit in it," I was being completely serious.

It didn't make them scum.

I blamed myself for my vote apparently being the last straw. The argument you made did factor somewhat into my flipping my read on mastin the next game day.

[fferyllt]

Alignment is somewhat irrelevant to abusive behavior?

Somewhat. pie was pushing it as a reason mastin had to be scum, though. I don't remember if you cited it specifically as a reason mastin was scum.

[fferyllt]

Move the fuck on to a less toxic topic, or I'm just locking the thread.

Yeah, sorry.

[fferyllt]

Enjoy the hell out of Europe!

I'm going to Florida next week. Not a vacation. I'm not that masochistic.

[fferyllt]

Hilariously enough, I thought that your unshakeable faith in us being town meant that you saw what I see in Bork's play, meaning that you understand how I function as a hydra partner when my partner is having a breakout game as scum (which, for the record, in this case happened when bork was getting pretty fucking bored of mafia in general as shown by siteflake midgame) and you know that if my partner's playing off the fucking chain that I don't completely abandon them and tell everyone I'm going to drink shots for every time that you're called town.

bork did have a breakout scum game and he did play off the fucking chain.

I took notice!

[fferyllt]

Oh, my god. I am sick of ffery. How the FUCK does someone so delusionally believe in their reads that they don't even vote them when they are counterclaimed? Seriously?

Hence why I'm thinking she's scum

She's looking for a lot of excuses not to vote RBD.

[fferyllt]

Of course from your PoV you knew you were right, because you could read your PM.
I couldn't, and I had an erroneous read.

And yet, I did my damnedest to communicate that you were wrong. I built as many bridges as I could; you were the one burning them down. Because you took it internally. You thought I was attacking your character. When what I was doing was, simply, reaching out to you. I tried to understand where you were coming from. You never reciprocated. I saw no effort to try and understand where I was coming from...and also no effort on your end to explain where you were coming from. Again because you wouldn't let me. You closed yourself off. And took things personally.

Whereas if you had opened up and

let us in

, the whole crisis would have been averted.

The only way to have prevented the situation from my end would have been to have had a correct read there.

This is the problem. You think there was no way to prevent it on your end, and it was purely on my end that it could be prevented. If you actually read my posting...you'll realize I changed approaches, multiple fucking times, in an attempt to do exactly that: prevent it. I put time and CONSIDERABLE effort into trying to bridge the gap and get you to open up...

...But because you thought and still think it's not something you could have stopped, that it wasn't something of your doing...that was impossible.

You can see it throughout nearly the whole game, even.
I was open. Rancid was open. Katsuki was open. RG was open. LB was open. Heck, Mara/Orc was open, too.
The neighborhood was shut.
In more ways than one.

The players who were most accurate were the players who let others in and tried to get into others.
Efforts which you're saying you think not possible on your end.

Except they are.
And they work.

The closest time you've gotten to reading me correctly was in the Xeno games...where you let that happen.
The games where you've read me wrong are the games where you've closed yourself off from others.

You just need to see it and recognize it.
Not in hindsight.
Hindsight's crap.

In the damn game. Pay attention to it.
And I can guarantee you.
GUARANTEE you.

That it'll go better for you than it did here.
Don't get self-absorbed.

The
Mastin as you know, Bro wasn't the only player who interpreted what you meant as reach-outs to be attacks. There is probably a takeaway in that for you as well.

[fferyllt]

And sorry Ffery for being rude to you overall.

If there was any rudeness, I imagine it was mutual. I seldom notice rudeness or process stuff as rudeness in mafia games. Usually when I stop and look around because someone complains about rudeness I find that it's mostly a style difference, whether play style or general communications style.

[fferyllt]

This is some good reinforcement for why I value reads over nearly anything else in mafia most of the time. I learned to play mafia in an environment where something like 90% of the games had godfathers. I never wholesale trusted a cop inno until a godfather flipped.

Still don't. And this is the 2nd game I've played ending this month where a godfather inno result contributed to a town loss in part because town players were reluctant to look at the person's play - behavior - and think about the wincon the play fit or something.

[fferyllt]

The only person who seriously bought the innocent result was JSU though.

Maybe. There seemed to be a general consensus to leave sorting you for later or something.

I blame myself in large part for ever backing off you after that inno result claim on day 2. Your day 1 claim was skeevy and the day 2 result claim was skeevy squared.

Anyway. gg scum!

And thanks for the game, Cabd!

/pre-in for whatever you're cooking up next!

[fferyllt]

I'm not saying I think the setup was imbalanced (I haven't actually looked at it in detail), I'm saying godfathers suck.

And ffery, it's fine to not trust cop results, but you can't ignore the result outright. There's probably a way to formally algorithmize it based on decision-making theory, but I'm too tired/lazy to think of it now.

There probably is, but reads. :/

No you don't and

I

don't ignore the result outright. It's one data point about the player - potentially a very important data point. Other data points include whether their claims make sense, whether their play fits their wincon and role, whether other claims conflict with theirs, whether it makes sense that they keep showing up alive the next game day, etc.

There's a whole cluster of behaviors that tend to follow on after becoming all-but-cleared town.

[fferyllt]

Decision-making theory should take into account reads. I've been trying to develop a way to make decision in-game based on associative reads in any given gamestate (i.e., if x is scum, then y has b chance of being scum, but if z is scum, then m has n chance of being scum, etc), and I'm not sure how doable that is without using external software because of how large the decision tree would become. A cop inno affects the probability of someone being town, regardless of your personal read on that player.

The specific effect on probability has a lot to do with other aspects of a game's design, the mod's experience both as a mod and a player, etc. The player playing like a scumfuck is pretty objective.

I followed you on AP because of your experience playing with him. I thought you would be able to read him better than me. I didn't follow you because of your probabilistic models. I have a lot of learnings from this game. One of them is that I need to actually find out what you're basing your assessment on a player.

One of the things I'm mulling over is how my lack of strong scumreads affected how people were reading me. I think I mentioned in the game that if I were scum I would have just spit out a few scumreads. It would have been easy as scum to sheep some of the town players on the wrong track. I kinda think it would have been better to pretend a confidence I didn't actually have about some of my not-so-town reads. But, that goes against some deeply ingrained habits and principles as a town player.

[fferyllt]

That's what null piles are for. :/

Over time, I feel like my criteria for genuinely scumreading players has gotten more and more rigorous.