Tales of You (Endgame)

[Breakfast With Sandy]

That was an interesting couple of pages.

And it totally explains what pinged for me there.

Shades of buzzword bingo.

[Breakfast With Sandy]

When you say based on having been townread and scumread, does that mean you've read their posts from the pov that they are town and again from the pov that they are scum?

[Breakfast With Sandy]

f-16, kagura is currently voting PV and you're pretty vehemently against that lynch.

That doesn't appear to have impacted your read of them. But, now I"m very curious about your thoughts regarding Nacho's reasons for thinking PV is scum. As well as curious about the details of his read, but he hasn't been around to discuss them.

[Breakfast With Sandy]

One thing f-16's claim clears up is some of the absolutely crazy-making differences in reads of my townreads.

Bro in particular was bugging me, though I felt like he's town. The strength of his scumread on RBD didn't make sense to me.

This is reminiscent of the death's diner game in some ways.

Bro, is that why you asked me about a narrative? Because the interactions between your neighborhood and RBD/Mastin/AP absolutely fit the narrative once that puzzle piece is in place.

[Breakfast With Sandy]

That's exactly what you'd expect to happen in a game where the millers are otherwise vanilla. When they have a positive utility ability, they have to weigh counterclaiming immediately.

And in F-16's case, with serial neighborhoods, even though we're not aware of what data will be available with flips, his millerhood would still make it into the game thanks to neighbors.

[Breakfast With Sandy]

We still thinking both are town.

Beli wonders if lynching one makes sense purely to cut down on the noise going into day 2, and would lynch RBD over F-16 because of the gladiate being more likelly anti-town.

I'd rather not lynch either atm.

[Breakfast With Sandy]

Also, F-16 talk to me about your LB read.

[Breakfast With Sandy]

We still thinking both are town.

Beli wonders if lynching one makes sense purely to cut down on the noise going into day 2, and would lynch RBD over F-16 because of the gladiate being more likelly anti-town.

I'd rather not lynch either atm.

Actually beli doesn't want to lynch either, also. If it comes to one or the other he'd go with RBD.

[Breakfast With Sandy]

Uh, no?

You can just say "Im a miller guys" and NOT claim the rest of your roll like he did here. Miller is a role you claim up front. No excuses. Ya its possible CF is less experienced with millers, but idk. He SEEMS to know what hes doing. He seemed to get that CCing was a legit strategy and I know it didnt take him until just now to get that RBD wasnt trolling.

And neighborizer? I mean if he was a COP or something I could see wanting to lurk or otherwise go unnoticed, but a freaking neighborizer? Thats not a strong enough role to dissuade someone from playing the miller part optimally by lclaiming it.


P-edit: I think being HAted is a more compelling reason to lynch RBD but I have no interest in it.

It comes as no surprise to me that we weigh things up differently, assuming we're motivated by the same wincon.

[Breakfast With Sandy]

What does Beli think about lynching out of {PV, PV, PV}

He's been against it all along. His vote on PV was a sort of trap, to see who followed a path of least resistance.

I don't think that's changed.

[Breakfast With Sandy]

Yes, thats great and all, but what comrpomise lynches are you willing to support? Did you ever actually follow up on your LB analysis?

Like 36 hours to No Lynch.

Some. Enough to figure out who he probably is. His offering himself up as a deadline lynch because deadweight makes me lean a little town.

[Breakfast With Sandy]

Ffery, promise me you aren't scum this game. Cause that would be a bitch.

I'm not scum. Now you know precisely how much you knew before you posted this.

[Breakfast With Sandy]

When I'm scum I don't look town. If I'm lucky I look less scum than a few town do and make it far enough into the game to help along a scum win. I don't know whether to call it good luck or bad when I make it to lylo as scum, because my scum lylo game is unmistakable, but I improbably get the lylo mislynch most of the time so far.

[Breakfast With Sandy]

Like your Lb statement. YOU threw out Lb like you were really struggling with understanding them, never follow up, and then report apparently having them strong enough town to not lynch because of them making a dumb WIFOMy statement? Really? Ive seeb scum posture about being a good lynch before.

F-16 is townreading LB or at least not scumreading him. I want to understand more about that read. LB isn't off the table. Neither is PV (for me), but I want to know what nacho's seeing in PV's play that reminds him of the scum game they just finished.

[Breakfast With Sandy]

You dont seem to get the gravity behind there being 36 hours left. As far as Im concerned, we should have lynched someone 3 days ago. We are in the 10th inning right now. Overtime. Sudden Death. Whatever, you get it. Like there is no time to be consulting Nacho on your feelings.

There is time to get info about his reasoning from his neighborhood and his hydra partner.

I won't go much longer without putting a vote down. And then I'll grit my teeth and watch what happens after that.

[Breakfast With Sandy]

Your neighborhood got outed. I assume you and Nacho have been hydra-posting there?

I have nothing from Nacho - he's not around and that's just the reality of it.
I have a decaying townread on LB (pretty much based off his opening and nothing else)

p-edit:

There is time to get info about his reasoning from his neighborhood and his hydra partner.

There very well might not be - what specifically do you need from Nacho, just PV reasoning?

If I didn't empathize with penguin_alien before I sure as shit do now.

-b

Mostly PV reasoning, but really any of his reads that you think are germaine.

If you weren't in the hydra his apparently standoffish stance on me would be making me nervous about now. He should be either sure I'm town or grilling the hell out of me.

[Breakfast With Sandy]

If you weren't in the hydra his apparently standoffish stance on me would be making me nervous about now. He should be either sure I'm town or grilling the hell out of me.

Does Nacho normally read you as quickly as he reads me?

-b

He either sees I'm town or pushes the fuck out of me until I'm sorted, usually. A game where he was town and I was scum and got past him all the way through to endgame just ended a few days ago. I thought that would give him reason to make sure it's a solid read in this game.

[Breakfast With Sandy]

He either sees I'm town or pushes the fuck out of me until I'm sorted, usually. A game where he was town and I was scum and got past him all the way through to endgame just ended a few days ago. I thought that would give him reason to make sure it's a solid read in this game.

I mean I think the obvious conclusion there is that he hasn't put an iota of effort into this game since then - do you not agree?

Who are the leading lynch candidates besides mastin at this point?

-b

1738 looked a little effort-y. Am I misattributing it?
Look, I don't really want to belabor this because you

are

in the hydra so I'm not freaking out about the lack of either a clear townread or efforts to sort me on Nacho's part. It's curious enough to note, though.

[Breakfast With Sandy]

You do realize CF thought that mastin and I were BUSSING EACH OTHER. THATS NOT A TOWN THING TO THINK.

pssssssstttt

i think you're bussing each other too

@ bork: i don't get the reference even after looking at the roles. what do you mean?

the game had two town rolecops.

[Breakfast With Sandy]

If I didn't empathize with penguin_alien before I sure as shit do now.

What is this in reference to?

?? Are we talking about something different now.

Yes.

bork and I hydra'd in that game so I'm well aware of what he's talking about. Nacho was mostly absent from the hydra with PA in that game, and she was constantly grilled and suspected over her inability to say what nacho was thinking about the evolving game state because he wasn't around.

They were mislynched on day 2.

[Breakfast With Sandy]

You're asking bork, so I'm going to get out of the way for now. But, I have an answer to that one as well.

[Breakfast With Sandy]

Because I want to know why you think this is easily a more open and shut scenario considering we can confirm nothing about the millers other than they investigate guilty which won't help us?

how many miller claims would you be willing to accept and how do you envision a setup that is based around multiple town millers actually working?

i can think of a variety of situations where multiple town trackers makes sense. i cannot think of a situation where including multiple town millers is a good design choice. can you help me out here?

buzzword bingo called. something about a town cop AND a town rolecop.

In a different setup where there weren't so many town players capable and willing to decide based purely on their reads, the game would probably have lasted more than 2 days. And maybe wouldn't have been a town win.

[Breakfast With Sandy]

there's a big difference between a red herring and a cop returning 40% guilty rates.

Worse than that. scum had a godfather.

[Breakfast With Sandy]

All this setup spec is making me want to eat a burrito, BRB.

P.S: There were also 2 millers in NY 159 (anxiety's game)

I mean I think you are right about one of them bieng fake, so moot point from me. I just disagree on which one. And it is -possible- they exist together. Im just not convinced CF handled the situation like an actual miller.

Yeah and I don't believe that F-16 would have signed off on this as a gambit, and his play/reads are entirely consistent with his roleclaim IMO.

In fact, like I said earlier the neighborhood itself, and Bro's RBD read and his play in general makes a hell of a lot more sense with the info about the miller/neighborizer claim in place.

Also, since this is a cabd game I want to point out that cabd thinks a neighborizing role is really powerful in the right town hands. On the flip side, he thinks it's really powerful in the right scum hands, too. and I can see all the mod-wifom he's spreading in this game. at some point the plans within plans within plans come to an end, though, and we as players have to decide what we think.

And CF's/Bro's reads and play showing clear consistency with the role claim clears up a lot of my confusion about this game.

[Breakfast With Sandy]

like, "my entire interpretation of the gamestate hinges on f-16 being town" shocked

You said it so much more succinctly

[Breakfast With Sandy]

Nacho was scum with PV in a recent game we played. Nacho is voting PV iirc. I want to talk with him about that.

For myself, I am aware I have a tendency to see his play as scummy lately regardless of his alignment. I'm cautious about the read.

Which game was that?

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=39517

Also, you could talk to me. What part of my play are you seeing as scummy, and why?

your lines of inquiry feel disjoint and lead nowhere and your stances are mush. You come perilously close to fitting the implied criteria of your lynch pool selection.

On a paradoxically town note, overall it feels like you're playing some game parallel to this one because you're usually so far out of phase with current game events. It's hard to describe.

[Breakfast With Sandy]

We're NOT doing a compromise deadline wagon when there is a counterclaim.

~ F-16

Because we are going to be in the same position tomorrow except with a bad deadline (most likely town) lynch on our hands. There is no

need

to find a deadline compromise wagon.

~ F-16

Maybe you're not. I'm townreading you both and I'm not going to discount my read over role shit in a cabd game.

[Breakfast With Sandy]

Also, someday I want to know why you think trying to understand your reads or trying to get you to further explain your reads equates to scumreading you. but that can wait.

[Breakfast With Sandy]

or maybe you didn't think I was scumreading you? Maybe you thought I was still trying to sort you.

[Breakfast With Sandy]

Ffery, assume Nacho died. What are you going to do for the next 24 hours?

For the next 2 hours I'm going to be a hypochondriac. For the hour after that I'm going to see my doctor and pick up whatever meds she prescribes.

Then, in all likelihood I'm going to be taking prednisone for 7-10 days and I'll be batshit crazy in all aspects of life including mafia, but I won't be going-out-of-my-mind itchy if this is poison oak. I'll just be going-out-of-my-mind-on-prednisone.

Should be interesting. I usually have delusions of benign omniscience on prednisone.

[Breakfast With Sandy]

Oh and I strongly -strongly- get the heebie-jeebies from Bork referencing a game where PA got miuslynched for being in a game whee Nacho was her hydrabuddy and went AWOL.

Bork isn't even remotely in a position to get lynched today or even tomorrow so him lofting that out there feels a little fake.

I'm the one who mentioned the mislynch. Bork was focused on the expected-to-channel-Nacho situation PA was in on day 1 and most of day 2.

[Breakfast With Sandy]

Nacho was scum with PV in a recent game we played. Nacho is voting PV iirc. I want to talk with him about that.

For myself, I am aware I have a tendency to see his play as scummy lately regardless of his alignment. I'm cautious about the read.

Which game was that?

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=39517

Also, you could talk to me. What part of my play are you seeing as scummy, and why?

your lines of inquiry feel disjoint and lead nowhere and your stances are mush. You come perilously close to fitting the implied criteria of your lynch pool selection.

On a paradoxically town note, overall it feels like you're playing some game parallel to this one because you're usually so far out of phase with current game events. It's hard to describe.

You linked to the last completed game I was scum in.
How does that translate into "tendency to see his play as scummy lately regardless of his alignment"?

Actually, my one query I wanted answered the most was done so. While the answer was less than stellar, it was a very small blip on his overall town play (imo). Otherwise, I don't have very much desire to ask questions about each heads read on each other head. I focus on reasons, of which most are not articulated anyway, and anything else of interest (Rancid's fullclaimed role and refusal to answer more about it).

My stances are not strong as this point, and I'm OK with that.

I catch up as I can, but I play in more than one game, and if I come and see 5 posts since last time, I feel no need to thread-spam.

I thought you were asking me which game you were scum with Nacho in, which kiiinda seemed odd but w/e.

PV, I can't think of how often I've voted you in games. Really the only game where I thought you looked really, really town was a long time ago - the amnesiac game. I feel like we have a mutual misread problem - see the Walking Dead game where you were certain we-Sangres were scum for a finished-game example.

I'm not sure why you're pushing me about being cautious in reading you and not just binning you in my scumpile like usual, but given our mutual past history it actually kinda pings.

[Breakfast With Sandy]

Also, RBD is HATED which means we don't want them around in LYLO. Why is everyone hardcore defending a scummy player that should be policy lynched for being hated that just got counterclaimed as a miller?

~ F-16

F-16, look past the role. Look at the play. And look at other zmuffin town and scum games. You know, that meta stuff you do. Tell me how their play looks like their scumgames. Convince me. I don't think you can, but you absolutely won't convince me on the basis of you both being millers.

Why are you this obsessed about lynching the person you're counterclaiming in a fucking CABD game?

[Breakfast With Sandy]

Also, RBD is HATED which means we don't want them around in LYLO. Why is everyone hardcore defending a scummy player that should be policy lynched for being hated that just got counterclaimed as a miller?

~ F-16

F-16, look past the role. Look at the play. And look at other zmuffin town and scum games. You know, that meta stuff you do. Tell me how their play looks like their scumgames. Convince me. I don't think you can, but you absolutely won't convince me on the basis of you both being millers.

Why are you this obsessed about lynching the person you're counterclaiming in a fucking CABD game?

Nothing that Muffin has posted in the thread is a genuine effort to solve the game. His primary purpose in the game is browbeating everyone who scumreads MastinSSK. Him, Mastin, and AngryPidgeon make the most sense as a scumteam.

Muffin as town is actually useful to the game. See Cash Cabd, he was incredibly obvious town there.

Also, why are you against voting a hated claim? They ought to be lynched at some point before LYLO. With them alive, we have one less lynch.

Nati's posts are nothing like his play in NY169 where he was genuinely trying to work with players and solve the game. Like it's that obvious, I don't know what to tell you or how to convince you and I don't know even if I can and I don't know if anyone can. You are not a player that uses reasoning to refine reads. It is more of a "

have you read this player correctly before

" type with you. I explained why Casso was scum or at least not town in NY169. Your response was to say that you believe Mara's and Sakura's townreads over my scumread because they have experience playing with Nacho never mind that the don't have the accuracy that I did.

I made a huge long rant about your play but I decided to delete it. You have more experience with Nati so nothing I say is going to convince you. So, I guess I'll wait for Nacho to come and knock sense into you because whether or not you are convinced depends more on who is making the argument as opposed to whether they make a persuasive case. So, yeah, I am not going to bother.

~ F-16

This is kinda discouraging because I

am

trying pretty hard to work with you. But, this post kinda explains the vibe I've been picking up from you in this game, so maybe that will help in figuring out your stances and interactions down the line.

I don't know if you remember, but in 169 I had concerns about zmuffin from pretty early on and never townread him that I recall. His vote on Ser Arthur crystallized the read in a way that doesn't often happen for me in games. Maybe all that was 100% paranoia.

I'd trust Nacho's read of him because of Nacho's recent experience playing with him as scum...to a point. They misread each other really badly in mini 1543 and I took full advantage of the opportunity their mutual misread offered.

You're thinking about nati in the context of ny 169 but his real life situation has changed significantly since then in terms of when and how frequently he can be online. That was evident in watching him moderate the mini game. and in NY 169 there were fairly lengthy periods where he was disconnected from the game. I'm not sure why that wasn't apparent to you. Maybe my activity covered for his lack during those times. Some players did confuse our posts at times.

Anyway, If you get the lynch you want, at best it will mean that we removed a negative utility

role

at the cost of removing a strong town player if my read is correct. zmuffin basically had the mini game I mentioned figured out on day 1 before he and nacho distracted the hell out of each other.

[Breakfast With Sandy]

Also scum counterclaiming a miller makes no freaking sense because if RBD actually flips miller he'll get all the

love

suspicion on him next day.

I agree with this.

What do

you

think about his reaction compared to Syr's?

[Breakfast With Sandy]

I put down pie's opinion on it. I never said I disagree with it.

that's not what I asked. pie didn't like the reaction. that's kinda context free, afaik. you're asking what we think of his reaction compared to syr's reaction in a very different game.

I dunno, maybe you had pie read that game? Even so, that game had a pretty interesting player list.

[Breakfast With Sandy]

I'll meet you on the waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay down.

Let's see how long I can stomach this before my mental health issues make me break down in tears(I was only half joking about playing misery poker with mastin lol).

Yeah, this errant soul returns. Anyone cool on?

hi geist

[Breakfast With Sandy]

Our perception doesn't bend
As poetry whose words within survive
A vision carried on

[Breakfast With Sandy]

ffery have you figured out our miller status, yet? I figure if anyone is can peer the depths to see the truth, it's you.

As in do I believe your claim?

Yes.

But I also believe CF's claim. It made a ton of game-shards come together and start making sense.

It was sort of like your claim in Death's Diner, actually, that made perfect town sense out of stuff that I couldn't see the town motivation in before.

[Breakfast With Sandy]

As in do I believe your claim?

Yes.

But I also believe CF's claim. It made a ton of game-shards come together and start making sense.

It was sort of like your claim in Death's Diner, actually, that made perfect town sense out of stuff that I couldn't see the town motivation in before.

orcinus was a scum hider.

Just saying.

orcinus' claim didn't snap a ton of disparate pieces in multiple players' stances into place and make sense of them.

It's something I've experienced only a couple times in mafia. It happened in Death's Diner, and everything that made sense turned out to be town sense. It just wasn't enough to win that game. :/

[Breakfast With Sandy]

I won't help you with either of those goals.

[Breakfast With Sandy]

Like who names their hydra just sheep us

then lurks til called on it

then spits on me as scum

Fun Fact: every game where desperado was scum and I was in the game, he attacked me day one

META! META! META! MEAT!

he attacked us in 169.

[Breakfast With Sandy]

I won't help you with either of those goals.

THIS RAIL HAS NO BRAKES IN THAT CASE

I've only been paying scant attention, I wanna chat about despbro for a bit. You're marked for death tonight I'm fairly sure, so there's that.

Maybe so.

despbro's push on you was one of those shards that didn't fit until the counterclaim. It made perfect sense as a stance informed by knowledge of another miller.

[Breakfast With Sandy]

Like Desperado, I am reminded of a certain viscon game...notice any similarities in my role that game and this one?

don't make me go read another game tonight.

[Breakfast With Sandy]

Welp I can just abuse my role to force F-16 to if you want.

#Gladiatorisantitown

:/

[Breakfast With Sandy]

I'm never known for irrational, strictly-bad actions, right ffery?

Oh you are known for that. hence the :/

[Breakfast With Sandy]

my role pm doesn't say "kingmaker". I checked twice.

what is this shit?

[Breakfast With Sandy]

I'm about ready to say fuck it and yolo Beli's mastin read.

[Breakfast With Sandy]

I'm about ready to say fuck it and yolo Beli's mastin read.

Do I get my 'I told you so' card back when he flips town?

I'd love to see you and CF agree on someone.

[Breakfast With Sandy]

Spoiler:

towntowntown (nascent townbloc)

Mac
GiF - at the time he posted his reads list I was p amazed at how closely it matched my own thoughts. And I'd been pretty cagey with my thoughts at that point. I think the points of synchronicity were genuine.
kagura

Town

Rancid Broderick Drake
Fox & Hound
Titan
Carbon Fiber
orcinus

Maybe Town

Just Sheep Us - not scum with AP?
Red Garydos - strong townread went stale, but I do p much like the stuff that Brian has been posting today.
Cupcake Panda
AP - not scum with BroDesp? AP read has faded. I'm not sure if it's an influenced fade, but maybe.
Lord Business
Clyton
Peregrine

Not So Town

MastinSSK (scum read for beli, null/null-town for ffery)

list isn't seriatim

Not a lot of scum reads. :/

Right now I'd draw my don't-lynch-above-this line just below RG.

In answer to the question I asked GiF (and am still waiting for an answer), I would say that my most controversial read is GiF, given his very low level of activity so far. But, the reads list he posted mirrored my impressions at that point in time more strongly than anything else I've seen in the game thread.

had no impact at all on my read.

[Breakfast With Sandy]

Yay for you.

I still don't think it was right. I don't see scum!gif asking that particular person to hydra with him, so it confirms the slot.

There was this game where scum!cabd asked

me

to replace in as a hydra with him. I'm not quiiiiite as allergic to scum roles now as I was then, but it's pretty close.

[Breakfast With Sandy]

I won't help you with either of those goals.

THIS RAIL HAS NO BRAKES IN THAT CASE

I've only been paying scant attention, I wanna chat about despbro for a bit. You're marked for death tonight I'm fairly sure, so there's that.

Maybe so.

despbro's push on you was one of those shards that didn't fit until the counterclaim. It made perfect sense as a stance informed by knowledge of another miller.

then I retract my statement that the shard named you makes more sense post-claim, I guess.

pity.
I was pushing RBD long before F-16 claimed miller in the neighborhood.

[Breakfast With Sandy]

THIS RAIL HAS NO BRAKES IN THAT CASE

I've only been paying scant attention, I wanna chat about despbro for a bit. You're marked for death tonight I'm fairly sure, so there's that.

Maybe so.

despbro's push on you was one of those shards that didn't fit until the counterclaim. It made perfect sense as a stance informed by knowledge of another miller.

then I retract my statement that the shard named you makes more sense post-claim, I guess.

pity.
I was pushing RBD long before F-16 claimed miller in the neighborhood.

I presume that this should eliminate any doubt in your head about the innocence of DespBRO, ffery.

presume wrong. I'm back to oh hell bro and I disagree vehemently, now which of us is correct this time???

also, his narrative question was town as fuck. I should have seen what he was asking there. :/

[Breakfast With Sandy]

to make it clear, it's not the you-read I'm wondering about. That one I'm p sure he's wrong on.

But, I have no fucking idea what you guys thought you were doing with that apparent fake claim and it bothers me that you let it go so far. And it super bothers me that muffin went on the attack when counterclaimed.

If this is some sort of smoke and mirrors thing plz clear it up now.

[Breakfast With Sandy]

I've noticed a particular weakness in my game where I crumble to pushes such as these, but I don't know how to help it.

welcome to my world.

it's a seductive, self-destructive urge that leads nowhere useful.

[Breakfast With Sandy]

[Breakfast With Sandy]

bork, what are your thoughts?

[Breakfast With Sandy]

bork, what are your thoughts?

Every fiber of my being is telling me this is town rage.

The miller claim stuff is chaff compared to that.

Everyone in the neighborhood is telling me I'm wrong.

-b

I can appreciate the fuckitiquit attitude but I would rather lynch scum today. :/

[Breakfast With Sandy]

As for the lack of suspects, I am feeling surprisingly confident on where the scumteam is: MastinSSK, Rancid, AP, and one of {Clyton, LordB, and maybe Yggrdra Union but I don't think so}.

Of this group, I'd vote mastin (on the basis of GiF/Pie's read mostly) or LordB. I don't think rancid is scum. I'm totally perplexed by muffin's recent posts, but I don't think either of them would behave like this as scum. Clyton's posts worry me.

p-edit hmm.

[Breakfast With Sandy]

We can deal with Clyton later.

pedit: ffery, are you trying to get me to scumread you?

I don't really care how you read me. I just don't want to lynch town today.

you keep yelling about a scumclaim, but I am not reading it that way.

[Breakfast With Sandy]

I don't know why anyone thinks this is town ATE, it looks like scum ATE to me.

What I view as a scumclaim more than the thing Sheep is hung up on is the way they reacted to CF's miller claim while not being a miller. Look at their posts directly after the claim. From here, they look really really terrible.

@2790: there will probably be a lot considering how many players' reads on each of you are largely based on stances you've both taken.

I don't know if I can really explain this but I'm going to try.

Neither of them are the kind of scum player to just lose it like that. It looks like pissed off town and it has looked like pissed off town for a few calendar days, now. confirmation bias is a thing. They've been reading CF as scum for a while and he trots out a last minute counter claim and it stinks to them.

I've done similar as town. What I didn't do was have a fake claim going at the same time because that's not how I generally play as town. I still misread the players involved and did my utter best to get them lynched.

Anyway, especially zmuffin, this is nothing like his scum game. Nor is it anything like nati's scum game.

[Breakfast With Sandy]

Anyway, especially zmuffin, this is nothing like his scum game. Nor is it anything like nati's scum game.

And yet you don't trust them that this is nothing like my scumgame.

Seriously, the day I fool zMuffinman is the day I win a fucking scummie, if not officially, then in my mind.

Mastin,

I

fooled zmuffin in the last game we played. ME.

though he was reading me correctly on day 1 and I had a ton of help from town losing focus over and over again in that game.

Sometimes it's a concatenation of one player playing way above their league and another player having an off game and the rest of the game being a confusing ball of freakiness.

You're not cleared in my mind. But, as much as F-16 is bitching about compromise lynches, to my mind your lynch would be exactly that - a compromise that I'd hope like hell turned out to be scum.

[Breakfast With Sandy]

hey pieguy, do you remember your mastin read on day 1 of xenosaga?

[Breakfast With Sandy]

Mastin,

I

fooled zmuffin in the last game we played. ME.

So?
zMuffinman's not a scumhunting god. I don't give a damn about his ability to read others. I'm talking about his history of reading ME. Literally every game we've been in, he's had me as the correct alignment, scumreading the scuMastin and townreading MasTown2. To the point where I blindly nightkilled him when I landed scum in a game he was in. (He was mislynch bait, btw.)

You're ignoring occam's razor.

Sure, I could be scum, who masterfully manipulated the strings in a god-tiered scum game to magnificently managed to perfectly fool the players who have never been fooled by me. Who would have been down on their luck in having an extremely 'off' game. Yet was somehow caught by players that have barely played with me because...oh, I dunno, "My mislynches don't need to think me town". (Which is BS. I make damn sure my mislynches think I'm town. I won Paranoia because of it, in fact. I scumread MTD, hardcore attacking him out of the gate in lylo. I reversed that into an attack on shos. They ended up crossvoting.) Could be. Sure.

Or I could simply be town, correctly read by those who know me and being incorrectly read by those who, bluntly, don't know me worth a damn.

You ignored the rest of my post. And that's ok. I don't really want to exchange walls with you right now.

[Breakfast With Sandy]

As for the lack of suspects, I am feeling surprisingly confident on where the scumteam is: MastinSSK, Rancid, AP, and one of {Clyton, LordB, and maybe Yggrdra Union but I don't think so}.

Of this group, I'd vote mastin (on the basis of GiF/Pie's read mostly) or LordB. I don't think rancid is scum. I'm totally perplexed by muffin's recent posts, but I don't think either of them would behave like this as scum. Clyton's posts worry me.

p-edit hmm.

I'd go with Mastin as well. It is as I expected. Scum are doing everything they can to drive a compromise wagon through. I'll get back to this in a bit. Bork asked me in the neighborhood why I was so convinced PV was town and I am working on building a case.

I think the RBD lynch is going to go through. I hope you're right, but I don't believe you are.

I'm not really sure why I'm arguing against it so hard, given they both basically just want out of this game.

[Breakfast With Sandy]

I posted something in our hydra QT and flipped back to this thread and saw your post, clyton.

What I posted was that If I were playing on my own, I'd probably vote peregrine as a consensus measure with Mac and Kagura, with a full understanding that it's a compromise likely to result in a mislynch.

This is basically an untenable day 1 for me. I could put a vote *somewhere* and feel more useful I guess, but if I'm going to do that - waste our vote - I'd rather just not vote and take the heat for that tomorrow.

RBD have indicated they'll gladiate one of my townreads tomorrow, so even if they survive today, tomorrow looks like another shit game day.

[Breakfast With Sandy]

I suppose you could say:
My role is such that I'm not someone who never is getting lynched this game.
But my play is such that I shouldn't ever be lynched this game.

You claimed a shittier version of a standard tree stump, and your plays been scummy as.

I don't get how many times I have to say this to you.

Saying things over and over again won't make people believe them.

I'm trying to decide if this is irony or sarcasm.

want to go with irony.

[Breakfast With Sandy]

Counterpoint: The town play, in my mind, would be to take it back immediately, before it causes what it's causing right now. Instead, they threw doubt on F16's claim and continued scumreading him, then called him conftown like 10 pages later. I don't see town motivation in that delay.

Holy shit so much of this.

I'm going to be an insufferable dick until RBD is lynched because they're fucking scum and it's obvious-as AND HAS BEEN FOR THE WHOLE FUCKING GAME.

AND YET YOU FUCKERS REFUSE TO LISTEN.

Well let's see.

Claim miller ................................................. 90 pages later counterclaim

Remind me which kind of town accepts a counterclaim that comes 90 pages later?

What's the town-motivation in holding it in the context of the gladiator claim?

What's the scum-motivation in CCing 90 pages later?

These aren't hard questions to answer, Mac.

He's not talking about the towniness of counterclaiming 90 pages later. He's talking about the towniness of not buying the counterclaim initially.

[Breakfast With Sandy]

He's not talking about the towniness of counterclaiming 90 pages later. He's talking about the towniness of not buying the counterclaim initially.

He asked "What kind of town accepts a CC that comes 90 pages later."

I asked the questions that *should* be the town thought process in thinking through such a decision.

Which would have made it obvious that CF is town.

I think seeing that is easier and therefore happens more quickly from the outside rather than from the inside though.

[Breakfast With Sandy]

oh god maybe BroDesp are scum.

[Breakfast With Sandy]

He's not talking about the towniness of counterclaiming 90 pages later. He's talking about the towniness of not buying the counterclaim initially.

He asked "What kind of town accepts a CC that comes 90 pages later."

I asked the questions that *should* be the town thought process in thinking through such a decision.

Which would have made it obvious that CF is town.

I think seeing that is easier and therefore happens more quickly from the outside rather than from the inside though.

If anything, it should be easier if you're faking miller because you know that you're not a miller...

Not if you've been locked in a scumread and protracted wall-wars for most of the game, no.

Remember the indie upick? For me, it turned out to be one of the few games where I had a read I should have subsumed to setup spec. but the read was undeniable. and wrong. Even if I'd been right, theory said I should have unvoted.

We're not going to convince each other.

[Breakfast With Sandy]

He's not talking about the towniness of counterclaiming 90 pages later. He's talking about the towniness of not buying the counterclaim initially.

He asked "What kind of town accepts a CC that comes 90 pages later."

I asked the questions that *should* be the town thought process in thinking through such a decision.

Which would have made it obvious that CF is town.

I think seeing that is easier and therefore happens more quickly from the outside rather than from the inside though.

If anything, it should be easier if you're faking miller because you know that you're not a miller...

Not if you've been locked in a scumread and protracted wall-wars for most of the game, no.

Remember the indie upick? For me, it turned out to be one of the few games where I had a read I should have subsumed to setup spec. but the read was undeniable. and wrong. Even if I'd been right, theory said I should have unvoted.

We're not going to convince each other.

So what you're saying is.

You like to blatantly ignore theory and be objectively wrong about things.

Got it.

Thanks for missing the point.

No, I'm saying sometimes, objectivity isn't in the house when it needs to be. You scumread me for not having objectivity when I needed it in that game.

I feel like IF YOU ARE TOWN AND MAYBE YOU ARE BUT YOU'RE STARTING TO FREAK ME THE FUCK OUT you're scumreading natimuffin for the same goddamn reason.

[Breakfast With Sandy]

Nacho is BroDesp town?

[Breakfast With Sandy]

I'm willing to flashlynch them.

It bothers me that BRO sprang to life with AP's arrival. The energy level and not really logical yelling remind me of 167.

[Breakfast With Sandy]

the not really logical yelling? he did that in street racers? It's not something I associate with his town game at all. Yelling yes, but yelling AT illogic.

[Breakfast With Sandy]

I like AP better for town.

I mean this crap over the last few hours just doesn't make sense to me.

[Breakfast With Sandy]

What the fuck, Nacho?

Do you understand why I'm so frustrated at the moment?
Because if not, take a step back from the game and please reread again.

I don't. If I was, I wouldn't have asked. I am really trying to understand why the only people on the same page as me are Pieguyn and BRO and Desp and not you or Tammy who are incredibly easy to be on the same page with. If I made a mistake, I'd rather you just bring it up so I can play better. I am not sure why me asking for votes on a wagon feels like "manipulation" for one.

I havent accused you of being manipulative at all.
Reconcile scum-Muffin with the recent meltdown.

And Muffin and Nati are basically posting personal insults while I am trying to solve the game. I am not sure why you are directing your frustration at me rather than at them.

Probably because you're not the one being lynched. Mislynched imo.

[Breakfast With Sandy]

VOTE Just Sheep Us

[Breakfast With Sandy]

[quote="In post 2951, CarbonFiber"]I think both BRO and Desp are really, really incredibly town.[/quote

Did bro tell you he was going to telegraph the presence of your neighborhood to me?

I didn't catch it at the time, but that's what he did.

[Breakfast With Sandy]

I haven't actually seen Muffin fight a lynch before that I recall?

You've missed some amazing and successful fights. Day 2 of Death's Diner. Day 2 and well beyond of GiF's touhou upick, where he fought off a cop guilty even after the cop flipped.

[Breakfast With Sandy]

So, ffery, given your current read-state, how to you view the narrative of mastin/Titan/RDB/CF/FoxHound/AP/myself based on your reads (i.e., who's doing what in terms of actions?)

Right here - you posted this to the same goddamn player you crumbed the dethy to in Death's Diner.

[Breakfast With Sandy]

Ok. maybe that wasn't telegraphing the neighborhood. I'll retract that.

[Breakfast With Sandy]

Bro, you never replied to my post about your scumreading bad theory/illogic and why that's relevant to your "scum claim" argument.

[Breakfast With Sandy]

unvote

What's going on?

[Breakfast With Sandy]

Vore: orcinus

gut?

because my gut is a little unsettled about him.

[Breakfast With Sandy]

BRO don't disappear.

[Breakfast With Sandy]

Vore: orcinus

gut?

because my gut is a little unsettled about him.

Elaborate? I have I'm as town, but I don't know if it's just because he feels so different from vesperia.

I've had him as town too, but there's just little things that bug me a little. I know I'm not the most predictable player, especially after someone fools me in recent games. How sure I am I can read them next time out has a lot to do with whether I think I understand why I misread them in the first place. I thought I understood the source of my misread in vesperia, and thought I had a better handle on his scum game from the other side of the mirror after our recent mini normal win as a hydra. But, he wouldn't know that. And yet, he pushes me on my townread and basically backs off with a shitty answer that didn't address any recent history reasons for me to be suspicious of him.

But mostly, it's the fade. Though he fades as town too sometimes.

And the lack of presence doesn't help.

[Breakfast With Sandy]

Nacho is Mastin town?

[Breakfast With Sandy]

VOTE: AP

That should probably give you hives, nacho.

p-edit what the fuck

[Breakfast With Sandy]

VOTE: orcinus

[Breakfast With Sandy]

clyton's pretty weird, though.

[Breakfast With Sandy]

This is a message in a bottle from beli:

"JESUS FUCKING CHRIST WHERE DID ALL OF THESE PAGES COME FROM THERE ARE LIKE 15 OF THEM.

FUCKITY FUCK FUCK FUCKING FUCK."

[Breakfast With Sandy]

How does the role work? doesn't sound like a governor.

[Breakfast With Sandy]

then explain what you mean?

[Breakfast With Sandy]

Unvote

I give up.

[Breakfast With Sandy]

Unvote

I give up.

why the fuck were you voting me?

You self-govern and then make two people gladiate?

yep

i crumbed this when i said i was gtown or something like that

Vore: orcinus

gut?

because my gut is a little unsettled about him.

Elaborate? I have I'm as town, but I don't know if it's just because he feels so different from vesperia.

I've had him as town too, but there's just little things that bug me a little. I know I'm not the most predictable player, especially after someone fools me in recent games. How sure I am I can read them next time out has a lot to do with whether I think I understand why I misread them in the first place. I thought I understood the source of my misread in vesperia, and thought I had a better handle on his scum game from the other side of the mirror after our recent mini normal win as a hydra. But, he wouldn't know that. And yet, he pushes me on my townread and basically backs off with a shitty answer that didn't address any recent history reasons for me to be suspicious of him.

But mostly, it's the fade. Though he fades as town too sometimes.

And the lack of presence doesn't help.

[Breakfast With Sandy]

I've had him as town too, but there's just little things that bug me a little. I know I'm not the most predictable player, especially after someone fools me in recent games. How sure I am I can read them next time out has a lot to do with whether I think I understand why I misread them in the first place. I thought I understood the source of my misread in vesperia, and thought I had a better handle on his scum game from the other side of the mirror after our recent mini normal win as a hydra. But, he wouldn't know that. And yet, he pushes me on my townread and basically backs off with a shitty answer that didn't address any recent history reasons for me to be suspicious of him.

But mostly, it's the fade. Though he fades as town too sometimes.

And the lack of presence doesn't help.

What recent history reasons to be suspicious of me?

Vesperia

our Selkies scum games, particularly your lurking in them.

[Breakfast With Sandy]

VOTE: orcinus

you are actually so fucking bad at this game

Fuck you, I'm out.

you're going to post me a nice long paragraph explaining what happened the last fourty pages and why you suddenly have this massive boner for an orc flashwagon or i am going to put you up against tammy to be lynched

that would be a bit ironic.

maybe but i am being absolutely fucking serious

i do not like being woken up in this manner

That is a shitty reason to be fucking serious.

[Breakfast With Sandy]

Then pick some people you think are town and talk to them now about who you should choose.

[Breakfast With Sandy]

that wasn't bork. nacho's been posting for the last few hours.

[Breakfast With Sandy]

so you expected me to make a self-town case??

Not at all. I expected you to be more suspicious of me than to occasionally raise your eyebrow and then go back to whatever it is you're doing in this game. I expected you to make some sort of effort at sorting me.

[Breakfast With Sandy]

Who do you think are town?

[Breakfast With Sandy]

so you expected me to make a self-town case??

Not at all. I expected you to be more suspicious of me than to occasionally raise your eyebrow and then go back to whatever it is you're doing in this game. I expected you to make some sort of effort at sorting me.

I thought I understood the source of my misread in vesperia, and thought I had a better handle on his scum game from the other side of the mirror after our recent mini normal win as a hydra.

so basically, magically, vesperia and our last game together only improved your meta with me, and did nothing to my meta with you?

ok dude

Vesperia didn't tell you much about my scum game. You haven't played against scum-me since xenosaga iirc.

[Breakfast With Sandy]

not xenosaga. xenoblade.

[Breakfast With Sandy]

I see. A desperation attempt on me when the deadline is drawing near? I am sorely disappointed.

Catching up now.

this kinda strikes me as an off reaction somehow. Like it's a crack in the emotionless facade.

[Breakfast With Sandy]

I'm thinking nolynch might not be such a bad end to this game day.

[Breakfast With Sandy]

orcinus is 40 pages behind and not interested in talking to town reads, so.

[Breakfast With Sandy]

orcinus do you plan to use your governor action no matter who is lynched today?

[Breakfast With Sandy]

orcinus do you plan to use your governor action no matter who is lynched today?

yes

orcinus is 40 pages behind and not interested in talking to town reads, so.

@ muffin: i'm gonna enjoy watching you die

@ ffery: i don't give a fuck. we aren't no lynching holy shit

so yeah

[Breakfast With Sandy]

SEVEN MORE PAGES?

JOBS MOTHERFUCKERS DO YOU HAVE THEM?

-Beli

[Breakfast With Sandy]

I'll have some faith in the people I trust. Stalin, what will you do? You clearly don't want to lynch RBD cause you think he's town. Who's the alternative then? I don't see PV being scummy; rather, there is a lack of townreads on him.

Clyton, where did this trust come from?

[Breakfast With Sandy]

I'll have some faith in the people I trust. Stalin, what will you do? You clearly don't want to lynch RBD cause you think he's town. Who's the alternative then? I don't see PV being scummy; rather, there is a lack of townreads on him.

Clyton, where did this trust come from?

This trust came from the fact that we were in similar situations. You were in a dilemma like I was. RBD was town, but I would rather sacrifice him for the sake of avoiding a no lynch. But I didn't find PV (where he was the alternative wagon) to be scummy based on my scum/town/nullread on him (or lack thereof). I was asking you for alternatives.

Ok, I can kinda see that.

I haven't been posting logical walls or doing all that much in the way of explaining reads. I don't really feel like my playstyle should inspire trust in a logic-based player this game. Especially one who isn't familiar with me. From feedback, I seem to be enigmatic to players who aren't familiar with me. I hear a lot of "there's no there there" about my day 1 posts sometimes, even from players who do know me.

[Breakfast With Sandy]

SEVEN MORE PAGES?

JOBS MOTHERFUCKERS DO YOU HAVE THEM?

-Beli

lol silly Americans and your backwards behind-the-times-by-so-many-hours ways. It's Good Friday (or Bad Friday depending on what you think about this game).

oh you've done it now, calling a Canadian "American". I'm going to go hide in the hydra QT until things blow over.

[Breakfast With Sandy]

@foxhound who do you think he should target?

[Breakfast With Sandy]

was that a hammer?

[Breakfast With Sandy]

no, L-1. I dunno why I thought he was already at L-1.

[Breakfast With Sandy]

How about assume both?

[Breakfast With Sandy]

i have no idea why people are scumreading me or why i became the quicklynch wagon but you are seriously off your marks

also i can't govern a no lynch

i might govern the lynch, then just put up a pool to no lynch anyways

fery/beli are you good with going up cos i want you there

I'm not sure beli is around to express an opinion.

this is an interesting test of trust, I guess. I'm ok with it. I'm going to want to know why you want us there at some point.

[Breakfast With Sandy]

yeah selkies has been cursed lately. :/

[Breakfast With Sandy]

Don't you want to skim our ISO and decide if you think we're scum?

[Breakfast With Sandy]

I'm trying to decide what I want to do with this 72 hour virtual monopoly (well oligopoly, or maybe triumvirate) of the thread. I guess it's a good time to flesh out and refine some reads.

ffery and beli could practice impersonating each other.

I know! blank verse reads lists!

Also fuck you guys who have kept us in 3rd-4th place in the post count all game. We own this thread now.

[Breakfast With Sandy]

This is a really strange platform for trying to figure out someone's alignment. Personally, I don't think scum will do anything obvious to take advantage of the situation if you're town. For now, I really just want to talk about reads with you, learn what you think is going on in the game, etc.

We can basically treat the thread like a neighborhood for the next 2+ days.

[Breakfast With Sandy]

Yeah, I basically had decided to give it another game day to figure you out, hoping you'd be more active. I did a little research yesterday in case the wagon swung your direction, but I don't think I posted anything besides acknowledging some of F-16's stance.

I can't really picture you playing an intentional lurkgame as scum. It's alignment neutral to me.

I didn't read that much into orcinus' picks. I figured he just wanted to force a lurker lynch because he didn't have strong enough scum reads to gamble on a serious 1v1.

[Breakfast With Sandy]

I think so. Unless I misinterpreted something. I'm working with an assumption, anyway. If I'm correct, I didn't spot you in a game where you were scum and I was town.

[Breakfast With Sandy]

Yeah, Kagura is nacho and bork.

Beli and I want to talk about MastinSSK among ourselves. Beli's opinion hasn't changed, he's scumreading them. Maybe we could start there?

[Breakfast With Sandy]

LB, this was beli's post explaining why he thinks mastinssk is scum.

beli is scumreading him.

Do you know why?

mastin-town has kinda been my rock this game.

I do think her gladiator strat is crap, but I don't know. On one hand, me and meta are a fucking disaster.
On the other, like in walking dead I really felt I fucking knew it and just couldn't qualify and then too much of my time got caught up in soft defending metal sonic because metal sonic

-b

Ok I can't mobile so no quote cutting. Or apparently overriding shit autocorrect .

I hate mastin's attitude towards F/H and the logical fallacy that is painting Ceph's attitude towards her lynchability as independent of gamestate. The townmastin I know is smarter than that and I don't think mastin actually believes that harseshit this game, but false face must hide what false heart doth know .

Ffery is probably the only reason I havenae been lynched for dead wood pages ago, so I'll not vote mastin without her leave, but I'M WORKING ON IT.

I want to correctly lynch an ace of mastin's caliber so bad it's like I haven't peed in a month, though. I MUST HAVE THIS.

--DrunkBeli

oops. :/

[Breakfast With Sandy]

LB, this was beli's post explaining why he thinks mastinssk is scum.

beli is scumreading him.

Do you know why?

mastin-town has kinda been my rock this game.

I do think her gladiator strat is crap, but I don't know. On one hand, me and meta are a fucking disaster.
On the other, like in walking dead I really felt I fucking knew it and just couldn't qualify and then too much of my time got caught up in soft defending metal sonic because metal sonic

-b

Ok I can't mobile so no quote cutting. Or apparently overriding shit autocorrect .

I hate mastin's attitude towards F/H and the logical fallacy that is painting Ceph's attitude towards her lynchability as independent of gamestate. The townmastin I know is smarter than that and I don't think mastin actually believes that harseshit this game, but false face must hide what false heart doth know .

Ffery is probably the only reason I havenae been lynched for dead wood pages ago, so I'll not vote mastin without her leave, but I'M WORKING ON IT.

I want to correctly lynch an ace of mastin's caliber so bad it's like I haven't peed in a month, though. I MUST HAVE THIS.

--DrunkBeli

oops. :/

[Breakfast With Sandy]

What is this conciliatory shit? I WANTED A THUNDERDOME!

-Beli

[Breakfast With Sandy]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dq4aOaDXIfY

[Breakfast With Sandy]

oh that's right the youtube tags.

[Breakfast With Sandy]

And I was so looking forward to a blood boils over pot meet kettle melt metal ragefest in which I would undoubtedly have occasion to use the phrase "buttersnap shitfuckery"

-Beli

[Breakfast With Sandy]

Perhaps we should kill Orci for creating what is so clearly a TvT gladiate.

Alternately, I have been saving, for revenge purposes, a photo of myself shirtless in a kilt striking what I wrongly imagine to be a sexy pose. I could post that if killing Orci doesn't look like it's going to happen.

-Beli

[Breakfast With Sandy]

revised reads list:

towntowntown

Mac - first bet the farm town read of the game

Yggdra Union/GiF - they've been town since GiF's first reads list, as I mentioned in our first reads list

kagura (with some mild reservations)

Rancid Broderick Drake - I'm not belaboring this read any more. I think it's a you get it or you don't and never will sort of thing

Carbon Fiber

Just Sheep Us - reaction to being run up

Titan - tentatively in top tier for now. may firm up with more reread

orcinus - so there are reasons why the proven governor ability isn't a for sure town ability, but my gut has a huge town reaction to how orcinus handled this, and the reaction crystallized when he asked us if we were ok with being invited to this shindig.

Lord Business - reaction to thunderdome looks pretty damn town to me.

Pretty Town

Fox & Hound
Red Garydos

Maybe Town

Cupcake Panda
AP - town because claim, without claim still pretty null
Clyton
Peregrine

Not So Town

MastinSSK (scum read for beli, null/null-town for ffery)

I question how many players are apparently somewhat immune to various sorts of violence in this game. One of the immunity claims is probably scum.

[Breakfast With Sandy]

I had kinda hoped that as governor he'd be able to post during this period.

We still probably have a good 2 and half days to discuss stuff. I doubt that there's going to be a hurry to majority lynch given the plurality aspect.

[Breakfast With Sandy]

Given the accuracy of my reads historically, it's probably a safe bet that there's at least one scum within my strong town reads, but by that very same token, I'm not qualified to pick it out.

Some hydra dissonance would be handy here, but both heads are light on scumreads.

My strongest townreads, in no particular order* are {Fox/Hound, CF, RBD, Titan, borkcho}

-Beli

*I can't put them in order. I did try.

[Breakfast With Sandy]

yeah, now that we have such a big top tier group, there's a higher likelihood we've got at least one scum in our townpile.

[Breakfast With Sandy]

Some of my townreads are scumreading other of my townreads.

And from what I've unraveled from posts and reads lists, I'm not alone.

[Breakfast With Sandy]

I knew that avatar was a trollface.

[Breakfast With Sandy]

AP you claiming scum?

Oh right. You can't answer.

[Breakfast With Sandy]

Nati was trolling. I <3 Nati. This has been a really weird two days, and I needed that little bit of extra surrealism.

AP will most likely call it paranoia tomorrow. Assuming he's alive, which I fully expect.

[Breakfast With Sandy]

*yawn*

Boy oh boy is this ever exciting.

-Beli

[Breakfast With Sandy]

ftr we both have orcinus in our townpile now.

[Breakfast With Sandy]

AP?

[Breakfast With Sandy]

So your neighborhood doesn't disband at the start of the day?

That's pretty cool. I dunno why, but I thought it would be defunct.

[Breakfast With Sandy]

I agree that RBD is very unlikely to be the scum kill.

I really didn't get much out of the cage match exercise other than an LB town read (that was quickly made redundant) and his reads list.

Beli and I talked about it during the cage match and overnight. We both think that scum-orci, if he had to use the gladiate to avoid lynch, probably would have set it up differently than spending a lurker who might be a viable mislynch later in the game.

[Breakfast With Sandy]

I've had flashes of paranoia about nacho, but if this isn't town-bork his scum game has evolved incredibly since We the Purple. I don't think it's possible to change that much, that fast without a few scum games in between.

[Breakfast With Sandy]

also, the sheer audacity of what nacho was doing with the vote switching doesn't seem like it would come from a scum mentality.

It pretty much shatters the robotic-nacho-scum meme if he's scum.

[Breakfast With Sandy]

Pretty much every time I see Bork post, my paranoia goes away somewhat. But I think Nacho has evolved beyond robotic during NY169. The flashwagon on Sakura and the dismantling of it, etc.

Ffery, do you have any actual scumreads at this point? One thing I wanted to ask about your reads-list is that I am not really sure what you were trying to convey. It seems like you have townreads on everyone.

It's almost pure PoE for me. AP worries me, but I don't really have anything solid to go on there. And his vote on me during the governor/gladiate thing pinged but he did indicate paranoia once or twice during day 1 and LB

did

come off incredibly town during that. Beli still scumreads Mastin, and depending on how today goes I could see us putting our vote there today.

[Breakfast With Sandy]

And again, there's a dissonance via insisting RBD is town yet not taking their read on me into consideration.

Only in an alternate universe where townies are always right and mafia games are always short.

Okay, then. Scenario. Orc's scum. He gets lynched and self-governs. He puts two obvtown players in.

What nonsense is this?

Scenario: Orci is scum. He therefore knows who is town and who isn't. He puts two

non-obvious

townies in. He also doesn't say in-thread that he's purposely gladiating a townread.

What happens Day 2?

Fuck all

.

[Breakfast With Sandy]

VOTE: AP

Carbon Fiber claimed miller.

[Breakfast With Sandy]

If you guys think Im this stupid then I really REALLY cant help you.

I was hoping to catch CF in a lie about his role. And yes I got a result on Kagura.

Then why did you yell at me for not stopping you when you posted your plans?

[Breakfast With Sandy]

Bro you're buying this shit?

sigh

[Breakfast With Sandy]

I think there are likely 2 scum in Stalin/Titan/PV. This push on me is actually ridiculous. Anyone with half a brain should understand why I did what I did and its pretty fucking baffling that I might get MISLYNCHED over my really strong point on F16.

Kagura needs to come in here and talk to me.

I sort of agree with mastin that Orci could be scum if stalin isn't, sort of doubt both. Im leaning stalin scum. Ffery is basically acknowledging that Ive done things I do as town and then still trying to scurmead me for them anyways which is convenient. And she doesnt really feel like she did in Xenosaga at all. Not my fav lynch, but would lynch for sure. The posturing about me for voting her was actually terrible especially considering she was listing LB as completely obvtown at the same time.

You voted me during the 1v1 and yet didn't investigate me.

[Breakfast With Sandy]

you aren't getting mislyched.

Well, that part at least is right, because it's not a mislynch.

Confirming both heads are in accord on our vote

-Beli

[Breakfast With Sandy]

You voted me during the 1v1 and yet didn't investigate me.

Because LB was obvious town which is why I didnt vote for him. you said he ws obvious town in your 1v1 with him. that is why i didnt vote for lb.

And he said that he'd be back if he was lynched, and self-voted. Sooo.

Like I said, you made a couple of mild expressions of paranoia about me but given the gamestate your vote pinged. And still does.

And your ohshit soft shoe while you figured out your story after the CF investigation claim blew up in your face isn't even a tiny bit convincing.

@BRO plz explain how this looks like town AP to you.

[Breakfast With Sandy]

I guess you glossed over a few things.

[Breakfast With Sandy]

ha. and there you demonstrate you have no concept of my scum game. Despite 167 even.

As scum I'm anything but cheeky. Someday I'll work up the nerve to try it.

[Breakfast With Sandy]

AP: Your (Actual, no BS) investigate target in your next post with the result you got.

You and I was explicitly told that my role failed.

You're saying you were told who you were allowed to target, but it failed?

[Breakfast With Sandy]

UNVOTE

[Breakfast With Sandy]

ha. and there you demonstrate you have no concept of my scum game. Despite 167 even.

As scum I'm anything but cheeky. Someday I'll work up the nerve to try it.

Well Ive never really seen you as scum before so your meta defense is falling flat for me.

Yeah I know, none of the scum team wants to remember ny 167

And I certainly wouldn't say you have been cheeky for the mass majority of this game. Its mostly been you afraid to do anything and just following popular opinion on most of the playerlist. That is scummy.

This is false, but given your attention to detail I'm not surprised you think this. Pretty sure I was the first to declare Mac town, and swam against the current on RBD, GiF-before-hydra, and Fox&Hound.

P-edit: Why does that make sense to you, I think there is a strong chance I was blocked..

Id talk more about CF but its in my iso. He didnt say jackshit when I declared intent to investigate him. tl;dr: hes not a miller, hes lying and scum.

I still don't really understand why you flailed when that claim blew up in your face. If you knew he claimed miller you should have expected pushback and suspicion. It's the main thing that worries me about your current claim.

[Breakfast With Sandy]

WTF did you EXPECT me to do then? My initial reaction was to be upset that it was blown out of the water before I could so much as narrow my eyes menacingly at F16.

For now, I'm working on the assumption this is a fundamental clash of mindset. Despite all the morph games, I'm not a gambiter and I don't think like a gambiter. And your gambit is so raw around the edges that my automatic reaction was "caught scum".

Tammy will appreciate the irony, since the rough-edged town-gambit that morph-cabd ran in a recently finished game garnered a ton of suspicion and in part led to our mislynch a few days later.

[Breakfast With Sandy]

Look. I'm not saying you should blindly trust Rancid's read on me.

And how is dropping all of my suspicion because "Muffinati said so" anything but?

By putting in someone who is obvtown and someone who isn't with both being town, it's win-win. Obvtown lynched, an obvtown player got lynched. Mislynch got lynched? Mislynch got mislynched. It's the optimum scum strategy.

That's still spending a mislynch that could be a game-saver in lylo, whereas putting "scumreads" who are actually both town saves face

and

gets a mislynch.

[Breakfast With Sandy]

*even if fake.

@Fox, I can sum up my rebuttals here. But the expected response (that is inherently scummy) from me will obviously be "but I haven't revealed my full playstyle in a large game yet!" And that part is true. I gave my off-site mafia experience link, and if you look through some of the games, there were instances that I took gambits and risks because it was necessary. The necessary thing in my perspective is to get rid of Day 1's noise and establish the town on better ground. Yet in Day 2, the debates that happened in Day 1

somewhat

spilled over here.

I'll outright state that I will disregard my exercise to caution the next day if this day does not bode well for the town. I'll softclaim that my role is partly an informative type, and I will use this information to my resources.

Realistically, no one can prevent that however if it wasn't for the revelation of orc's role and his adamant intention to put two non-obvious townies against one another. I've done my best to quell the noise coming from Mastin in regards to confronting me, but for others like PV, JSU and possibly CF, they see differently and will probably continue the push.

I felt like we were pretty damn obvious town by late day 1. To me it looked like orcinus set up a situation where either the lurker was lynched or it went to no-lynch.

[Breakfast With Sandy]

orcinus asked me if I was ok with being 1v1'd. asking me and not just setting it up that way gave me townvibes.

I think his obvious impression that he'd set up a chance to talk with both of us during the 1v1 also looked town. I don't think scum-orcinus would seek out an opportunity to spend 3 days in a game thread with me with no distractions given that I'd been unsure enough about him to vote him during the deadline lynch mad dash.

Those are the reasons he wound up in my top tier town pile during all that. Beli came to similar conclusions for his own reasons.

[Breakfast With Sandy]

orcinus asked me if I was ok with being 1v1'd. asking me and not just setting it up that way gave me townvibes.

As opposed to throwing you in the ring with no explanation? That would be a one-way ticket to the graveyard.

As opposed to stating the intention and leaving it to me to object or not.

I think his obvious impression that he'd set up a chance to talk with both of us during the 1v1 also looked town. I don't think scum-orcinus would seek out an opportunity to spend 3 days in a game thread with me with no distractions given that I'd been unsure enough about him to vote him during the deadline lynch mad dash.

This I can maybe accept, but I would not put it past him at all to have bullshitted that impression while actually knowing what he does. After Vesperia there is very little I think is beyond his capability to fake particularly in the world of role related bullshit.

And yet even there he made missteps at the start. And he knows I'm on high alert after that game.

[Breakfast With Sandy]

orcinus asked me if I was ok with being 1v1'd. asking me and not just setting it up that way gave me townvibes.

As opposed to throwing you in the ring with no explanation? That would be a one-way ticket to the graveyard.

Ya this. Why does that make Orci town at all? He basically set LB up to be lynched and then drops some comment today about "LB is retarded, we should have NLd" after his explicit plan was to put someone up against you because there was no way you were going down.

No, he explicitly set up lurker lynch vs nolynch. And actually putting me in that position assured that nolynch was at least a viable option because it's not my style to 1v1 in the first place. I was pretty much guaranteed not to start a crossvote in that situation.

[Breakfast With Sandy]

I'm eliminating Red Gyarados for the time being. (Still want more ns, though. And BS, for that matter.)

Yggdra removed for being probtown.

2 The Fox and the Hound (cephrir and DV)
4 orcinus_theoriginal

8 Breakfast With Stalin (Hydra of ffery and beli)

9 AngryPidgeon 9 ElementalHawk (Prohawk+3dicerolling)

10 Carbon Fiber (FourTrouble and F16)

15 PeregrineV
16 Clyton

I keep coming back to the

seven

names. For four scum.

F-16's probably town, and I'll remove him. Stalin's a townread.

So most town to least town,
Stalin
Fox/Hound
Clyton
orcinus
AP
PV

Approximate strength. I don't think the scumteam's Clyton-orc-AP-PV. I'm thinking only 2 (maybe 3, if I'm lucky) of them are actually scum.

Which would make one of {Stalin, Fox/Hound} be scum.

Would be the update.

...Fuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuck, I'm running out of ways to call Stalin town.

If you're town, then that's a solid clue that you've got at least one serious misread.

Re the GiF hydra, GiF was the original player, and it's the fact that pie, who probably hates being scum even more than I do, replaced in that had some people flipping their reads on the slot.

I was calling GiF town from the time he posted his first reads list.

[Breakfast With Sandy]

Wait so all I have to do to be hilariously town is get someone who dislikes scum to replace in with me?

BRB shooting Mina a PM.

You might get a few freebie town reads that way!

[Breakfast With Sandy]

I'm slowing down on posts until I'm back in 3rd or 4th place.

[Breakfast With Sandy]

You still think Mastin?

[Breakfast With Sandy]

Oh look, another game just ended that demonstrates that everyone should just sheep me.

Why are people not sheeping me?

*us

pedit: no shit we still think mastin

I've looked askance at the mastin arguments because they've mostly linked mastin to RBD who I was and am townreading. I don't buy the linkages whether pushed as scum-scum or town-town.

I'll go through your ISO and see if I can find arguments that aren't dependent on RBD-scum. Most of what I remember outside that from you yesterday had to do with what a shitty role claim she had.

[Breakfast With Sandy]

Ffery can I cash in the trust card from Song Contest to get you are to see Mastin is town.

Both muffin and I are 100% certain on this read, and we correctly read her as scum in both the Open and Attack on Titan. The downright fact is, if we are wrong on this, we are collectively awful.

Muffin and in are already at our wits end with this player list so please please please trust us.

Also f-16 is scum.

F-16
AP
DespBro

At minimum two scum in that list.

:/

I disagreed with at least half of what Nati said in this post. But I got off the mastin wagon.

Desp, I don't think we ever talked about this post, and Nati burning the Song trust card for this game.

Maybe we did?

[Breakfast With Sandy]

I am undecided on what to make of AP's whole gambit and I feel it is pretty useless.

Ffery, what exactly was the Song Contest trust card? I glossed over some parts of the game but I don't think I ever got it.

Large theme game we both played. I replaced in late day 1 and townread him 3 pages into my first readthrough. He was town roleblocker and stopped the night 1 kill. And I didn't believe he'd targeted the killer night 1 in a 19 player game. Figured it was my bulletproof or a doc protect.

Anyway, partway through the game I said this: http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 2#p5714002

And reiterated it after the game ended.

[Breakfast With Sandy]

The day 1 neighborhood was CF, brodesp, kagura, and GiF/Yggdra

[Breakfast With Sandy]

speaking of neighborhoods, do we want to claim our games and see what future neighborhood compositions would be?

I can think of reasons not to. It could be that there's some scum ability tied to the neighborhood of the target.



RBD said his game was Symphonia. I wonder if there's something in the Symphonia lore that would explain being janitored.

[Breakfast With Sandy]

3401 documented where my reads were at the end of day 1 during thunderdome. The only thing that has changed since then and during day 2 so far is my town read of kagura weakening a tiny bit and my read of AP diving and then moving townward some after lolgambit.

I feel like CF is being kinda cagey about the neighborhood discussion, but large neighborhoods are weird and I find them paranoia-enducing when I belong to one. In the Xenosaga game it turned out that my 5-player neighborhood contained 1 scum and the SK.

But, I think cabd would love the wifom and paranoia surrounding a large all town neighborhood.

I'd like to know more about what Titan thinks about the current gamestate.

Mastin's tactic-changes, I dunno what to think. The self-referential walls are tedious and waffly. I understand Yggdra's stance but it smacks pretty hard of tunnel vision. Would like GiF to maybe explain if/why he agrees with pie's take.

@orcinus you're too quiet for my taste.

[Breakfast With Sandy]

RG dropped from top tier town due to activity and due to my feeling they've kinda disconnected from the game state. The posts they both made last night were ok-ish, but not IMO really alignment indicative. notsci voting kagura after waffling on nacho-f16 hydra in another game in 5p-lylo (they were scum and hammered after notsci voted town) was fake-able outrage/chagrin imo.

[Breakfast With Sandy]

you're fakeable outrage/chagrin

Oh hai!

How about some thoughts on how day 1 ended and what you think about day 2 so far?

[Breakfast With Sandy]

RG dropped from top tier town due to activity and due to my feeling they've kinda disconnected from the game state.

I just read some awesome GI MD posting about how these things are terrible reasons to read people over and I agree. Reasons not actions.

So the GI MD posting says this is a terrible reason for my read to soften?

hm.

[Breakfast With Sandy]

RG dropped from top tier town due to activity and due to my feeling they've kinda disconnected from the game state.

I just read some awesome GI MD posting about how these things are terrible reasons to read people over and I agree. Reasons not actions.

So the GI MD posting says this is a terrible reason for my read to soften?

hm.

Just saying this is absurdly shallow. People lose interest in games for any myriad of reasons. Giving them scumpoints or anything points for activity is lazy and not really addressing any motivation behind why they may lose interest.

So yes and its an easy point to make on top of that.

Maybe. It's certainly not enough to cause them to slide very far scumwards. And didn't.

From what I've seen notsci doesn't usually start as strong as he did in this game as scum, though he actually did pretty well at it in the Thad's Neighborhood mini. There was a fair bit of cross-bussing between him and a scumbuddy, which gave him reasonable excuse to stay active throughout what turned out to be a game with a very apathetic town. Nati's mini normal kinda fits what I think his scum game usually looks like - some early "obvtown" posturing, buddying the players he thinks he'd buddy as town, and then the activity fades.

This game is anything but apathetic so far, so falling behind isn't lolwow or anything. Brian asked some decent questions in his catch up posts during the later part of day 1 and I stayed pretty happy with them as a result. but I don't remember him really following up on the answers to the stuff he asked about. Usually town grab a loose thread and keep pulling. So yeah, all of this could be chalked up to a fast moving game. I was thinking about the Song uPick over the night phase and notsci played what I think was his quintessential town game there. Good activity at the start that didn't totally fade out. He worked on identifying his town bloc and pushed at them to pick a direction so he could follow.

It's a stale read at this point.

[Breakfast With Sandy]

Im not just sheeping a random MD opinion here, obviously this is something I have agreed with. Using activity for tells/reads is really not a good policy.

I don't like walling much. By my pre MS standards I've become a waller. :/ I think I said to CF sometime on day 1 that I usually respond with a thumbnail when someone asks me about a player. If they want detail, I unpack it. But most of the time people don't want detail. they want to know where I stand.

[Breakfast With Sandy]

Ffery can I cash in the trust card from Song Contest to get you are to see Mastin is town. Both muffin and I are 100% certain on this read, and we correctly read her as scum in both the Open and Attack on Titan. The downright fact is, if we are wrong on this, we are collectively awful. Muffin and in are already at our wits end with this player list so please please please trust us.

I disagreed with at least half of what Nati said in this post.

Then if you're town, trust him.

I've hydra'd with Nati. I have some idea of his strengths and weaknesses in reads. When we disagree, it's not 100% that I'm wrong and he's right. It's a constellation.

One of the things that I realize is ticking me off is that both Rancid and Mac were supporters of me. (And by the way. My modus operandi as scum is to NOT kill the players supporting me. It's to fucking kill the players trying to lynch me, NKA be damned. And you can go straight to hell if you bring up "but you're not the only player on a scumteam", since when I am scum, I am the fucking president of nightkills. I'll let my scumbuddies elect a candidate, but I have to give it my seal of approval and have veto power.) But part of the reason that I'm going to try and take the plunge into the role of town leader? Is because bluntly, Rancid shoulda been there D1. He died, and I strongly believe there was a DAMN-good reason for it.

kinda depends on who comprises who the scum team is IMO. I'm also pretty generalissimo in the night game when I'm scum. I think the most challenging game I ever played in that respect was when I cult-recruited Thor and Svenskt and spent fucking hours arguing in the QT why my recruit and kill choices made the most sense. I think there was one recruit choice where I bent. And we'd have been better off if I hadn't bent, though we met our wincon anyway.

I think RBD were town. I don't think they were the scumkill.

I realize they don't have perfect accuracy as scumhunters. But they don't suck. No, they are EXCELLENT players, and their death was important. So if for nobody else if not them, then I'm pushing for a PV lynch. Oh, sure. We can and should make productive use of our time for today to discuss other things. But no other lynch (other than potentially AP) should be happening today. And while I might not be a paragon of mafia hunters, I don't suck either. I'm mediocre, not godfuckingawful. So this should be happening.

PV but not CF or BroDesp. Reads you also apparently disagree with RBD about.

Again, I'm not saying we should be speedlynching. But this wagon can, should, and will be happening today.

maybe so. Beli was against a PV lynch yesterday. I think he's disappointed that my read on AP took a turn because he thought gambitgate was prime scumposting.

[Breakfast With Sandy]

RG dropped from top tier town due to activity and due to my feeling they've kinda disconnected from the game state.

I just read some awesome GI MD posting about how these things are terrible reasons to read people over and I agree. Reasons not actions.

So the GI MD posting says this is a terrible reason for my read to soften?

hm.

Just saying this is absurdly shallow. People lose interest in games for any myriad of reasons. Giving them scumpoints or anything points for activity is lazy and not really addressing any motivation behind why they may lose interest.

So yes and its an easy point to make on top of that.

Maybe. It's certainly not enough to cause them to slide very far scumwards. And didn't.

From what I've seen notsci doesn't usually start as strong as he did in this game as scum, though he actually did pretty well at it in the Thad's Neighborhood mini. There was a fair bit of cross-bussing between him and a scumbuddy, which gave him reasonable excuse to stay active throughout what turned out to be a game with a very apathetic town. Nati's mini normal kinda fits what I think his scum game usually looks like - some early "obvtown" posturing, buddying the players he thinks he'd buddy as town, and then the activity fades.

This game is anything but apathetic so far, so falling behind isn't lolwow or anything. Brian asked some decent questions in his catch up posts during the later part of day 1 and I stayed pretty happy with them as a result. but I don't remember him really following up on the answers to the stuff he asked about. Usually town grab a loose thread and keep pulling. So yeah, all of this could be chalked up to a fast moving game. I was thinking about the Song uPick over the night phase and notsci played what I think was his quintessential town game there. Good activity at the start that didn't totally fade out. He worked on identifying his town bloc and pushed at them to pick a direction so he could follow.

It's a stale read at this point.

You can take me back to early game. What early-game posts read as strong reasons to read Red Gyarados as town? 3-5 would suffice.

How about talking about your RG read?

[Breakfast With Sandy]

I may be leaving abruptly at any minute. Waiting for some friends to get their asses in gear so we can do an antique store run. I'll elaborate my read with some of RG's posts, but it may be a few hours before I get it into the thread. Not because it takes much time but because I may have approx zero time. I thought we'd be taking off much earlier than now.

Anyway you can probably figure at least some posts I'll pull based on my narrative in 3749.

[Breakfast With Sandy]

I've hydra'd with Nati. I have some idea of his strengths and weaknesses in reads. When we disagree, it's not 100% that I'm wrong and he's right. It's a constellation.

This doesn't sound like someone trusting the song contest card.

I trusted it enough to unvote you in my next post. And I trusted it enough to do my utmost to kick the wheels off their wagon, which took precedence over digging into their reads.

kinda depends on who comprises who the scum team is IMO.

No, it really, really doesn't. Not for me, anyway. Out of all the players I have ever been scum with since 2010, there's only been one. One. Player out of all of them. That I have EVER considered my superior, and that's Nacho. Him? Him, I'd let dictate the kill. In every other game? It's always been me. For instance? I controlled the kill to a large extent in Attack on Titan, when BROseidon was my scumbuddy. I fought for control for the scum nightkill in Anything Goes (which has Sven, Tammy, Mina, and Katsuki as scumbuddies!), and ultimately, was the one with the largest influence there. Heck! You mention Thor as someone you fought with? I controlled his scum nightkill in Walking Dead! You can't find a scum game of mine where I'm not the one controlling scum's kill, at least not when I'm alive, since that's just what I DO as scum. I create the path to victory--a path that nightkills are a part of.

Even if I'm ultimately not the one in control of the nightkill, I hold such influence over it that I might as well be. There's never a night where I let a kill go through that I don't agree with; even if it's not my primary nightkill, the kill will be a secondary or tertiary target of mine that I wanted dead anyway, just in a different night.

Neither Mac nor Rancid nor Kagura (if my theory is correct) fit this profile. Not this game, anyway.

If we're ever on a scum team together, night discussions will be interesting. I agree with you about Nacho.

I think RBD were town. I don't think they were the scumkill.

Then what killed them?

My thought is vig. I've given some minor thought to 2 scum teams, and it might make sense of where the daytime lines get drawn, but I'm nowhere near convinced that's what's going on.

PV but not CF or BroDesp. Reads you also apparently disagree with RBD about.

Well, yeah, I disagree about the scumreads there on those two. Not a scumhunting god, albeit an elite scumhunter; he wouldn't be perfect. That's one area that I think he wasn't perfect in. (He totally gets a Tales-of-You card if he was, though. In addition to a Xeno-mollie card I now owe.)

I noticed you're not voting anyone. Would you be willing to vote PV?

Remote possibility unless Beli's read changes.

I think he's disappointed that my read on AP took a turn because he thought gambitgate was prime scumposting.

Well, ask Beli about his other reads. I happen to agree about him on AP, but I'm not sure I'm willing to take that risk today.

Thank you kindly for the advice.

[Breakfast With Sandy]

Waiting for some friends to get their asses in gear so we can do an antique store run

This sounds intense.

cutthroat even.

[Breakfast With Sandy]

I realize they don't have perfect accuracy as scumhunters. But they don't suck. No, they are EXCELLENT players, and their death was important. So if for nobody else if not them, then I'm pushing for a PV lynch. Oh, sure. We can and should make productive use of our time for today to discuss other things. But no other lynch (other than potentially AP) should be happening today. And while I might not be a paragon of mafia hunters, I don't suck either. I'm mediocre, not godfuckingawful. So this should be happening.

PV but not CF or BroDesp. Reads you also apparently disagree with RBD about.

Unless I missed it, which is possible, you didn't respond to this point.

It's a little hypocritical to push me on the one RBD read you are pushing today - the one that in most alternate universes would be an easy one, and that in this particular universe is certainly easier than the other two. And their town read of you of course.

WHILE IGNORING THEIR OTHER READS.

You are quite selectively holding them up as a Tales of You Moses.

[Breakfast With Sandy]

My thought is vig. I've given some minor thought to 2 scum teams, and it might make sense of where the daytime lines get drawn, but I'm nowhere near convinced that's what's going on.

Please tell me this isn't real

I forget who suggested it. I've rolled it around in my head a few times. I dunno. I don't think so. The puzzle pieces aren't coming together very easily, though.

I think the huge divergence in RBD reads indicates two very different fragments of town in this game, with two strongly divergent ideas about what is going on.

[Breakfast With Sandy]

I'm stunned.

Seriously stunned.

[Breakfast With Sandy]

But that actually maybe helps with the wtf is going on and why are we on such different pages about RBD.

[Breakfast With Sandy]

Bro's reads list.

[Breakfast With Sandy]

Yes.

That's usually how it goes because most of the time it takes a body of work to figure out what wincon is driving my mindset and behaviors.

This game has given me plenty of opportunity to lay down a body of work.

[Breakfast With Sandy]

Remember that time I said I was going to get to it later?

Well, no, but I do now, so 'kk. Will look forward to it.

And thank god, at least we have a partial overlap. Admittedly, with the order inverted. Orc at the top, Stalin at the bottom, Clyton in the middle, with a side of Gyarados. (Admittedly, where they fall is...really, really fluctuating.)

Very interesting this.

You were reaching out and trying to work with me earlier. And with Bro's reads list suddenly I'm at the bottom.

Now, tell me how you've been rethinking all day and only just got around to posting this read change.

[Breakfast With Sandy]

Ah I mean I obviously don't mind things like that being said, but I thought you said you'd be less likely to say that over the town as fuck convo we had.

I don't say it lightly. I feel like my play has been transparent and my stances have been impossible to miss.

[Breakfast With Sandy]

(One of the massive pains in the ass is that nobody here is going to have the full picture. Rancid won't have. Mac won't have. Lord Business won't have. I certainly don't have it. Nor do I think any of the players I consider town have it. But I'm putting a lot of serious effort into trying and figuring out who's right where and wrong, where. Obviously, it's easier in some areas than others. I know Rancid was town, Janitor be damned. I know myself to be town, suspicion on me be damned. I know Titan's town, I know DesBRO's town, I'm gambling on F-16 being town and Kagura being town. So those, not so hard. The hardness comes in figuring out the rest, and I'm trying to piece it all together, without much success right now.)

You have just cratered any goodwill your efforts today banked with me.

That turnaround reeks and if you're town you've killed any chance whatsoever of us working together short of mod-confirmation you're town.

[Breakfast With Sandy]

CarbonFiber, how sure do you feel that your neighborhood is all town?

[Breakfast With Sandy]

Ah I mean I obviously don't mind things like that being said, but I thought you said you'd be less likely to say that over the town as fuck convo we had.

I don't say it lightly. I feel like my play has been transparent and my stances have been impossible to miss.

I can see you as town but I strongly disagree about your stances being clear. I don't ever think I've been this puzzled about your stances before in any game that we've played. You have "town," "maybe town" and "prob-town" lists and I have no idea who you would be willing to lynch and who you wouldn't. And D1, who you chose to deadline wagon seemed pretty arbitrary as well.

Also, I wanted to ask you this before but forgot. D1, I asked if you wanted to compromise lynch Mastin, you said that Rancid was most likely going to be lynched and that you thought I was wrong but hoped I was right. If you had no scumreads at that point and you thought a wagon on Rancid was going to go through, why wouldn't you defer to Beli's Mastin read (who you weren't reading as strongly town as Rancid) and work with me to compromise there as opposed to watching the Rancid wagon build up (before Nacho entered the thread)?

I'd have to look at that part of the thread to recall everything that was driving my thought process, but at that point I thought the RBD wagon was almost assured of going through not only because of who was pushing it and how hard, but also because Muffin (I think it was Muffin) was saying that they wanted out of the game.

I put my vote on Mastin and then Nati directly appealed to me. It made no sense to me to push against their wagon by pushing onto a wagon they opposed that strongly.

[Breakfast With Sandy]

Also ffery, why haven't you been working with Pie as much considering you both hydra together etc.

Pie has one objective and he's pushing it for all he's worth. There's nothing

to

work with besides voting Mastin atm. Which we ma do.

We still have concerns about AP, though. I'd really like your thoughts about his results. Do you think he was roleblocked?

[Breakfast With Sandy]

I'm pretty sure I remember a reads list. I think I remember two of them. One before cage fight and one during.

I haven't made a reads list. Why doesn't that bother you?

We've posted 2 reads lists. And yes, one was during the cage fight.

[Breakfast With Sandy]

Also ffery, why haven't you been working with Pie as much considering you both hydra together etc.

Pie has one objective and he's pushing it for all he's worth. There's nothing

to

work with besides voting Mastin atm. Which we ma do.

We still have concerns about AP, though. I'd really like your thoughts about his results. Do you think he was roleblocked?

There's some stuff I've been thinking about regarding night actions but I don't know how useful it would be to talk about it at this point. I'll get back to this later.

I think it's pretty key given LB's flip.