Tales of You (Endgame)

[mastin2]

Yo.

Mastin, here. I'm here to kill you all.

[mastin2]

*Save you. SAVE you all.

...Crap.

(Out of hydra post for ego...and 'cause I lost the hydra password. I need to ping SSK for him to remind me.)

[mastin2]

Anywaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay...

-I'm still waiting for SSK to re-send me our password. (The problem is that he sent it to me over site chat originally, and that site chat log has been lost, meaning I no longer have it.)
-Until then, I'm hoping that the mods are okay with me posting out of hydra; I'll quote them all once I can. (Well, SSK probably will beat me to it.)
-But I did get our role PM, so I'm not playing blindly. With that in mind...

Yaaar, we be a hated miller age cop gladiator!

I dare ye treeweasels to counterclaim!

VOTE: Rancid Broderick Drake

The sad thing is that I can equally see this being a scum joke, a town joke, a scum serious fakeclaim, or a town serious roleclaim.

Let's say town for the heck of it*.

Wait a minute. Wasn't mastin in that game >.>

As scum, yes. Cruised to an easy win.

I've also obvtown'd like 5 times before post 30, you're all welcome. Reach outs may commence at your earliest convenience.

We're town, you're town, let's lynch some scum.

I don't think there is anything you can possibly do to convince me that you're SSK.

Not even this?

In case anyone was wondering, RG are townish for posts 16 and 24. And because I modded FE Awakening and am pretty sure this is notscience.

This might actually be scum, though.

Holy bleep, they actually ARE scum.

Hello everyone. I am You.

VOTE: Clyton

Could be town, could be scum, lean towards scum.

What from post 20 made you think MastinSSK is town? I personally don't see it.
-FT

Bluntly, if you can't see it, then you're probably scum. Like, I didn't even have our role PM and I could tell SSK was town. (Granted, I needed to be absolutely sure, butyeah.)

Those are some complicated sample PMs.

This IS scum, though.

*Actually a little bit more than for the heck of it. I have a very, very good reason to believe the claim. I'll talk to SSK about how we'll handle that.
/is most certainly not a VT this game, and not ashamed to admit it.
(Through three.)

[mastin2]

Derp. Through two, not three.

I don't know why we're starting other wagons when we can find Tammy's alignment by bringing them to L-3 before Page 5.

VOTE: Titan

good point

tammy needs to town it up quickly

vote titan

vote titan

Hi!

VOTE: kagura

Okay here's what I need from you guys. Nacho, if you're town I need to feel it. Alternatively, Bork you can obvtown up your slot ASAP please. I will stay with you, but if you value my sanity at all (and if you're town you should!), you will please just do this for me.

I briefly skimmed the first couple pages, notscience here's an awesome town tell for me. I literally just woke up, and the first thing I did was log in to this game. Though I'd love to stay and goof off I've got to go to work.

This actually feels like a scum entrance into the game. Like...I guess it's the tone? The last post isn't the type of friendly banter from town trying to scumhunt a player they know and respect; it feels like scum forcing their way into getting towncred by being confrontational and trying to make it look like town. The earlier posts also feel fake, and honestly, really not liking those self-votes.

[mastin2]

If this is for real, this might affect us.

I'm quite certain it'd affect us.

As I said, bouncing how to handle things exactly off of SSK. Butyeah.

If Nacho says Tammy's town, I won't trust him thanks to this.

Is it normal for Titan to manipulate things with emotional blackmail?

I'm not seeing a town attitude towards demanding people prove they are town for the benefit of their mental state. Seems both forced and trying to stay in the upper hand.

What is this, an AP alt? (Stop stealing my thoughts before I think them!)

I do vaguely agree with Mac being townish, though not overwhelmingly so. (Yet.)

/4. Gotta go, briefly, so be back in a moment.

[mastin2]

I actually think you're town.

Well, duh. That's 'cause you're scum and they're not on your team!

(Non-arrogant answer: They've already made themselves obvtown.)

I don't really get his entrance about RVS voting when at the time we were out of RVS.

Eh, it looks vaguely townish.

And no I'm not omgusing before anyone accuses me of that BS. But I do not believe for one second Town!Mastin makes those posts. I just don't.

Uh-huh. Sure you aren't. Sure you believe it.

My meds apparently aren't quite as effective as they're supposed to be, because bluntly, there's an extreme feeling that doesn't even feel like arrogance that both SSK and I, separately, are obvtown in our own ways. And that it seriously can't be more obvious.

[mastin2]

(Admittedly, my posting has a flaw:
Slightly too many scumspects. Gimme a sec to sort 'em.)

[mastin2]

1 Kagura (borkjerfkin + nachomamma8)
^Already obvtown.

2 The Fox and the Hound (cephrir and DV)
^Thinking scum. (Not absolutely sure.)

3 Yukari Yakumo
^I'm just gonna say POE town 'cause screw it, too many scumspects.

4 orcinus_theoriginal
^Let's just call him town for the heck of it.

5 Titan (Tammy + Sir Arthur Dane)
^Not feeling the townness.

6 Rancid Broderick Drake (zmuffinman and natirasha)
^Certainly feeling the townness.

8 Breakfast With Stalin (Hydra of ffery and beli)
^Also feeling townness. Strength yet to be determined.

9 ElementalHawk (Prohawk+3dicerolling)
^Heck if I know, but let's just assume town for the time being.

10 Carbon Fiber (FourTrouble and F16)
^Could be scum, quite easily.

11 Lord Business
^AP Alt. (But town.)

12 Just Sheep Us (Broseidon and Desperado)
^Eh, need more for surez, but an apt title; they're probably town so I'll probably be sheeping them.

13 Red Gyarados (Brian Skies and notscience)
^Probably my strongest townread.

14 Cupcake Panda
^Scumread, strength to be determined.

15 PeregrineV
^Vaguely townish.

16 Clyton
^Vaguely scummish.

17 Mac
^Decently town, but not strongly so.

I'll see about making a list later. (Am multitasking quite severely.)

[mastin2]

Yep, five scumreads. Four

might

be possible (especially given a stronger town, which I can already tell we have), but five? Heck no; I need one or two less.

Fox/Titan/Carbon are stronger reads than Cupcake/Clyton.

[mastin2]

(And, yes. Fully aware of the arrogance. I don't know why. That's the thing my current medication is specifically meant to counter. But it's there all the same. That feeling that, yes. I'm on the right track. In spite of the fact that all logic says "stop being so arrogant", there's that

feeling

that I'm actually not wrong on these. Of course I'm not flipping the switch, though.)

[mastin2]

Then she lets us know she did, in fact, get her role pm.

I asked for it specifically.

Her response to CarbonFiber that if he didn't see SSK was town then he's scum because she knew SSK was town before she got her role pm.

Yep! I could tell our slot was town before I got the PM. Asking for the PM was basically just a formality,

just

in case we were actually scum. (Playing blind as scum is extremely frowned upon. So

just

in case I was wrong, I needed it.)

Then he called my post confrontational with Nacho and Bork.

Because it was confrontational. You were confronting him. That's what the word means. It was the very LACK of friendly banter that set off the alarm bell. Like...I know you play with Nacho a lot. But your response? Wasn't the type of...whimsy?...I'd expect from town-not-knowing-alignment; it seems like scum-wanting-to-make-good-impression. Specifically BECAUSE Nacho'd expect it. Like...that same post made with a different tone/approach/angle would be town, but the way you did it felt...

off

.

I don't think for one second that she disrespects Nacho's ability in mafia so much that she thinks that Nacho would be swayed by me saying he'll see I'm town from my first post and call me town if he didn't feel it.

Not exactly sure I understand, but basically...yes? I respect Nacho's abilities. I don't think him townreading you would be the correct read, in spite of his otherwise-accuracy in reading players.

And I don't believe for one second that she actually believes my first post was emotional blackmail. She's played in enough games with me, as town and as scum, to not even entertain that.

Except past games with you is specifically why that post pinged me. It didn't feel like Tammy-town. At all.

[mastin2]

From someone who seems to be so interested in/obsessed with 'tone' (which by the way is a really mercurial idea at this point, what do you even mean by that mastin?), to boot. I'm not sure how anyone could read your vote there as serious, nevermind someone even peripherally aware of the way you play mafia.

Tone was the problem. The self-vote was fake. The following post from the different head far too confrontational. (And, yes. I can't think of a better term, because it really was a confrontation. A direct challenge to Nacho. If that's not confrontational, what do you

call

confrontational?)

I don't think I could tell the difference between what Mastin just did and what she might have done if she was told who to suspect by a random number generator.

Odd. Both heads of yours have played with me before and know me just as well.

[mastin2]

I needed to believe they were town, and I needed to believe they were town early. I wasn't confronting them, I was practically begging them to town themselves for me, so I wouldn't have to worry.

You're acting like these are different things.

Like I said. Different tone? Sure, not confrontational. But your tone? Was.

[mastin2]

. I couldn't be more town in this game, and you obviously don't know or are pretending to not know what that looks like.

Except this? Is saying this.

Your game this game looks like it's meant to be an imitation of your towngame, rather than an actual towngame.

[mastin2]

Man you remember that game where the scumteam just mislynched the player scumreading them instead of nightkilling them?

Oh, that was literally this entire game? Oh, okay then.

THIS.

FUCKING THIS.

F-16, there's a 'present' for you in the dead QT.
And an actual present for AP in there.

[mastin2]

By the way, present for AP:
(For gloating.)

Or if censored,

Oh, and F-16.
I made one for you, too.

FALLEN.
TO.
THE.
DARK.
SIDE.
(Even comes in avvy-size. Here.)

(Links may be broken, since unreliable upload is unreliable.)

[mastin2]

I .... I just wanna say that I was blatantly scum this game and I apologize for anyone that may have gotten ran over in my rampage.

As soon as mastin died I was free to just open myself up and channel all the inner troll inside me.

Funny you mention that.

*points to my two-page long iso in the dead PT*

Guess what the majority of it is about?

[mastin2]

I thought you'd carry us through, CF.

This.

You have NO clue.
(Well, you will when you read.)

How much I was cheering.
When you went after Nacho and had AP in your sights.

Then when you voted Fox/Hound and had a chain of Fox/Hound-->AP/PA-->PA/AP, the joy through my keyboard could not be contained.

And then.........

[mastin2]

Man you remember that game where the scumteam just mislynched the player scumreading them instead of nightkilling them?

Oh, that was literally this entire game? Oh, okay then.

THIS.
FUCKING THIS.

It's explained quite a bit in the dead PT, but really, REALLY look at things.
Imagine switching the Rancid vig and Mara/orc lynch.

Then you get Rancid...
-Dead via lynch after calling the whole scumteam out.

...And LG...
-Who was also on the right track.

...And myself...
-Dead via lynch when I had AP and Nacho correctly nailed hardcore, and before Nacho revealed himself, had been honing in on Fox/Hound and PA.

...And Katsuki...
-Who just quoted proof of having had all scum in sight.

...And RG...
-Who correctly pinned Fox/Hound and was on their way to correctly pinning everyone else.

Every. damn. mislynch.
EVERY GODDAMNED MISLYNCH.
Had a MINIMUM of one scum pegged, if not two, or more.

[mastin2]

DO YOU NOT GET THAT READS > ROLE INFORMATION?
OR THAT NO ROLE INFORMATION COULD POSSIBLY OVERRIDE HOW SCUMMILY FAKE AP'S FAKECLAIM WAS?

Also this.

AP was relishing.
RELISHING.
In that innocent.
Abusing it for all its fucking worth.

Because you

let

him do so.

Why the gods' fucking hell didn't the thought cross your mind that your continued survival was because you were giving the scum what they needed?

Blindly trusting a result is JUST as much of a fucking mistake as carelessly discarding it.

Cf actually had mod confirmation that I lied about my role and didnt out it so I feel zero shame.

Also this.

DARK FUCKING SIDE, F-16.
DARK. FUCKING. SIDE.

On Day 2 things were looking extremely grim for scum so I took a lot of efforts to try and break up any meaningful communication. So I guess I can claim some responsibility for this?

There was also this.

I

told

you AP was being scum.
I also explained

exactly

why Nacho was doing what he did as scum.

[mastin2]

GODFATHERS ARE COMMON

YOU FAILED TO DISSECT AP'S CLAIM
IT SCREAMED SCUM FAKECLAIM WITH 349573489574 LOOPHOLES BUILT IN

THEN HIS PLAY
AND NACHOS PLAY
AND PA'S PLAY

ROLE INFORMATION IS NEVER 100% CONFIRMATION

Basically, this.
It's arguably more negligent to blindly trust a result than it is to blindly discard it. (Though, ironically enough, we had both happen from different halves of the surviving neighborhood: JSU blindly trusting the inno, and F-16 carelessly discarding the guilty.)

And Tammy?
If you read near the end of the PT, you'll see that they told you what the VCA meant.
Basically on every fucking town wagon.
There were the same fucking unconfirmed players...all of which (aside from JSU) were scum.

Subject: Tales of You (Pick) Scum thread

Mastin is... so unbelievably town.

FTR, this^

Damn straight.

I literally couldn't have been more obvtown if I tried.

A common trend in my towngames these days, it seems.

[mastin2]

pedit: Yeah, my reads early this game sucked. It happens. Move on.

Early?

When did they not suck, BRO?

Serious question.

You were on basically every fucking town mislynch.

You defended scum throughout the whole damn game.

There's a reason zMuffinman and Katsuki were calling you Don Corelone of this game.

No town player did more damage than you did.

And I told you about this trait on day one, even. I warned you that you were repeating House Party, only worse.

The mastin lynch was really pro-scum so I just sort of token opposed it and kept trying to make it look good by smearing CF.

And I also called this out.

And explained exactly why Nacho/AP off the wagon were scum anyways.
There was literally NO worse lynch the town could have made that day.

pedit: muffin, you realize that Desp and I had 2/3 pegged at the end, right?

And yet instead of going after them the confirmed scum, you gambled on an AT BEST 50% shot which was...the wrong name.

Math your strongsuit, you say.

Where in the numbers does going after unconfirmed scum make more sense than going after confirmed scum?

see i wouldn't actually be making fun of you for bad reads, bro, except you were cocky enough to think your reads were the most amazing thing since sliced bread, and said so multiple times in game, so the sweet, sweet irony that all scum had to do was sheep you to victory makes it that much funnier

Also this.

BROseidon.

Bluntly.

This is not the first game you've fucked up.

Saying that you win more games than you lose does not fucking make you immune to having fucked up in the games you lose. Because...fucking up in games you lose, and thinking it was just that game you fucked up, will ensure you fuck up many more games to come, because you keep on making the same fucking mistake. "It was just this game." Except no it fucking isn't.

[mastin2]

I keep forgetting Foxhound almost got lynched on D1.

Which, again, was largely my doing.

I had Fox/Hound.
I had you.
On D1.

I had Clyton at the beginning of D2. (He then proceeded to post more town things.)
Had I had the chance to see more of PA, I would have had her anyway. (But, y'know. I got lynched before I could.)

And Nacho revealed himself, very obviously, on D2.

I might get distracted with emotions.
I might end up waffling a lot.
But when I'm obvtown.
And when I am on the ball.
When I'm not apathetic.

It's generally a good idea to listen to me.
I won't get things perfectly.
But my reads aren't something that should be discarded.
They're something that should be augmented and analyzed and found to have the strengths (which're near-certainly right) and the weaknesses (which're fairly-decently-probable to be wrong), and proceed from there.

Doing so would have revealed basically the entire scumteam.
My case for Fox/Hound being scum was solid; my opinion on Fox/Hound being town was shaky.
My case on Clyton being scum was solid; my opinion on PA being town was shaky and emotional.
My case on AP being scum was as solid as a case on AP being scum could have been; BROseidon's erroneous defense of him was shaky.
My feeling on Nacho being town was shaky; my case on him being scum was rock-solid.

No, seriously. You can read my iso and see all of that.
And it's not just on the scumteam.
My early attacks on Tammy and F-16 were okay, but not great; my later defense of both were iron-solid.
My defense of Rancid the entire game was entirely solid; the attacks against him were fairly superficial. (Seriously, nobody bothered to think of the mindset of claiming, then retracted much later down the line; I correctly pointed out that scum would have stuck through with it and that the retraction was town.)
My feelings about PV being scum were weak, but my (mostly posthumous) reasons for having him as town were very strong.
My reasons for RG being town were VERY strong, and my paranoia about them being scum was emotionally-driven weakness.
My reasons for having Beliffery as scum were not compelling, but my reasons for having them as town after our exchange were incredibly strong.

You can look at basically every single player in the game and see my thoughts on them and realize that was true.
If people had been working with me rather than trying to mislynch me, they would have been able to reason those through, because here I was stuck on my own without their help.

Blindly sheeping me's a bad idea.
Blindly discarding me's even worse of one.

[mastin2]

based on reads I'd say AP, penguin, fox and hound + a 4th and idk who it is

: O

Common trait of all dead town players is that we all basically knew the answer even without spoilers.

Who was confirmed scum?

The other two.

If you have in your mind a 50/50 shot between two players being scum.

But two players who are scum regardless.

You go for the players who are scum regardless.

I laid this out in the dead PT, to F-16 about why he should be going after PA or AP or even Fox/Hound by the numbers because that's what logic said he should have been doing.

People have bad games. Nobody's immune from it. You try to figure out what went wrong and move on.

The problem is, you keep making the same mistake over and over again while insisting you're not. So from my point of view? You haven't tried to figure out what went wrong, or if you did, have focused on entirely the wrong areas. Because it keeps on happening. Time and time again when you clash with me. You've got basically a 0% accuracy in reading me, when in most of those games, I was near the top of my game if not at THE top of my towngame, not only onto the scum but also being VERY obviously town by the commentaries of players who know me. Yet each time we play together, you still show that same arrogance in thinking this time, you've got me pinned down.

I'm the easiest example, but I imagine far from the only one.

[mastin2]

If things go into nothingness and horribleness, the scum game I haven't brought out is the toxic as shit scumgame, so if I'm being an absolute asshole, it's just something I've been wanting to try out for a while.

*grumble, grumble, gripe, gripe, I told you so, grumble*

Oh right Im just gonna troll and not do anything and maybe make some one line responses and waffle alot. Amazing!

*grumble, grumble, I know him so fucking well, gripe, gripe*

These mastin posts are awesome. And very much game of Champions reminiscent where she pegged me but I skated to endgame...After some bussing.
Mastin got me here on metagut cause she knows me well. Knows when my humor isn't town. But she's going insane and much like GoC I think people will not listen.

/bitterness builds.

So Im going to just keep talking to mastin in our own secret language. On the surface I'll be saying things like:

"Oh mastin, you are being ridiculous this game " which translates to "I'm scum, what're you gonna do about it"
and
"MAstin this is like you from GoC" which translates to "Better up your game, or this is gonna be another shutout like GoC"

and stuff like that until she actually goes insane and the town lynches her on D4 at the latest.

*grumble, grumble, gripe gripe*

[qupte]See mastin you are always a step behind. I -could- play in such a way that you would townread me, but its not worth it. Its too much effort, too draining, and all it would take would be one slip for that entire facade to crumble.

Buuuut, if I give you nothing to go off of. No one will really buy your pressure on my slot, you'll just look insane even if you are 100% right about me claiming scum to you in our own way.I didn't expect you to townread me. Certainly not for being too bad to be scum. Im going to just troll my way through this game GoC style. Much less effort, much more reward, and I get to taunt you. Every step of the way.[/quote] For the record, this is much what *I* do as scum; it's basically a fundamental aspect of my scumplay, and how I do it with regards to AP.

It works both ways, at least. AP can attest to me having basically done this in L4D to him.

RBD needs to dieburn die tonight, holy shit.

And you guys wondered why I was solidly convinced Rancid was a scum nightkill.

I keep thinking we're worse off than we are, but its really just mastin and RBD being loud more than everyone else.

Thus why sheeping us would have been a much, MUCH better way for the town to have won this game than sheeping da neighborhood.

I cant believe there is actually a wagon on Mastin right now. Literally everyone voting mastin is scum or dumb.

She's really obvious town to me.

Damn straight.

If mastin gets lynched I will cry tears of happiness. Then I will mock mastin by quoting myself from GoC in the thread and trolling my way to an easy win.

*grumble, grumble, gripe, gripe*

I almost posted this message in a wrong QT...my hydra QT qith mastin. That would have been potentially catastrophic. My hand was hovering over submit. If Id never noticed lol...

It'd cause me to get force-replaced because I subscribe to every QT I'm in, soyeah, there's that. :/

Mastin is ridiculously town this game. I should be scurmeading her but its hard to when the protown and obvtown are just too much.

This.

AP DID IT. YOU'LL ALL SEEEEEE. IT WAS HIM ALL ALONG. HES EVIL. HE WOULD MURDER YOU ALL IF YOU LET HIM!! ALSO FOXnHOUND IS A BUDDY, YOU'LL SEEEEEE"

And sure enough......

Subject: Tales of You (Pick) Scum thread

Also bro will never trust me ever again lol.

Damn straight he shouldn't.

Subject: Tales of You (Pick) Scum thread

After today's mastin lynch I'm taking a shot for every time she called me a cheeky scumfuck.

Enjoy the alcohol poisoning.

Subject: Tales of You (Pick) Scum thread

I don't get. How people think mastin and I are buddies. That is such a terrible read. Like quit mafia levels of bad.

Also this.

Subject: Tales of You (Pick) Scum thread

How do people have scumreads on RBD. Like the AtE from them is blindingly town. Its why mastin can see it. Mollie would identify it in an instant. Tammy seems hesitant but is letting doubt get the better of her.

Some people are 100% out of tune with just trying to understand the complexities that go on behind the fronts. And frankly anyone paying even remote attention would realize RBD cant possibly be scum for this. Just not ever. They'd have to be psychopaths. And I say that with me basically having done some absurd raging as scum before where I talked about how shitty everything is and how disappointed I am in everyone and how Id rather just be lynched. And I coasted to endgame. But this? This is just too much for even someone eho is a borderline compulsive bullshitter like me >.>

And that, m'friends, is why I hate you all. >_> <_<

Subject: Tales of You (Pick) Scum thread

There is no way scum killed RBD even if he is town considering their play D1.

No you dipshit, they were an excellent scum kill. Literally the only reason we wouldnt kill them is because you retards were frothing at the mouth to ML obvious and correct town.

Also this. The Rancid vig was THE worst possible vig shot.

Subject: Tales of You (Pick) Scum thread

If we recover from this, I want a goddamn Best Performance: Scum Group scummy lol.

In spite of it largely being town self-destructing, I'm considering it.

After all, it was total fucking revenge.
Not every game that a scum player gets to obtain that honor.

Subject: Tales of You (Pick) Scum thread

3585 is kind of a slam dunk

Yet sure enough, nobody noticed.

Subject: Tales of You (Pick) Scum thread

She has us. We're so close to her grasp, but she can't quite close her fist on us. She just repeatedly comes so close and then loses it entirely. I love it.

This is what I was talking about.

This is why I like hydraing, too.

If I am town.
And I am posting like this.

I need a town player there to help.
Because said town player? Can be all that I need to firmly close the gap.

That close.

That

close.
To having them all, and I couldn't, because as said, I was never able to lock things down.

Subject: Tales of You (Pick) Scum thread

DV here. I take it that it would be better for me to scumread Mastin than not scumread her?

Mastin is at 4/8 votes and is a large thorn in my side. I would like her dead.

Why ask your scumbuddies for help when the town is more than willing to offer their assistance? >_<

Subject: Tales of You (Pick) Scum thread

Mastin is... so unbelievably town.

Subject: Tales of You (Pick) Scum thread

So completely and unbelievably town. I have never seen her be this town before in my entire life.

And this.

If you think I can pull off the level of crazy that I did this game as scum, then you think of me as being GODSLAYING-tier scum. As in, so damn good at being scum that I can fool god-tiered scumhunters.
(Which...I can't. Thus, I'm not GODSLAYING tiered scum.)

Subject: Tales of You (Pick) Scum thread

Anyone scumreading [Mastin or RBD] should feel eternal shame.

Plus this.

Subject: Tales of You (Pick) Scum thread

Nacho. Lets just be blatantly scum. Start with me. Lets schedule a time we can be on and just post at each other, starting with the night actions and ending with whatever. Lets just spam the thread with it and make it look like we are waffling about everything in the process. Its hilariously scum but it will just throw everyone for a loop.

*grumble, grumble, gripe, gripe, I CALLED YOU OUT ON THIS AND SAW IT, grumble, grumble, gripe, gripe*

Subject: Tales of You (Pick) Scum thread

AKA, the longer it goes, the more it drains on mastin, the more irrational and anti-town she becomes, the more justification I have for losing my shit for the fifth time this game.

Ya. Honestly, lets actually take a suggestion from mastin and actually tag team her. I'll let you wall at her a bit right now and I'll pick up doing that later on.

*grumble, grumble, gripe, gripe*

Subject: Tales of You (Pick) Scum thread

i believe mastin can still pull this out, funny thing. being faced with someone like me pulling the egregious bullshit i am means that she's either going to shut down or step it the fuck up. the only reason i feel confident breaking cover so thoroughly and so early is A) because I know exactly how i'm going to respond to most situations, and B) because if worst case scenario mastin flies to the burns too brightly and slaughters the fuck out of me, i'm leaving you all (minus AP) in a great position and I have pretty solid faith that you guys will pull it out, despite everyone being so incredibly and bleedingly town.

Basically exactly what happened.

Nacho and AP successfully distracted me from Fox/Hound and PA. I KNEW that he was, too, I just didn't know it was Fox/Hound and PA.

Subject: Tales of You (Pick) Scum thread

Heh, I was reading the last tennish pages and kept thinking, 'no way do Nacho and AP both miss that this is obv-mastin town.'. So that explains that.

Subject: Tales of You (Pick) Scum thread

So I probably need to town read mastin because she looks ridiculously town.

It should really tell you something that basically every single scum player thought I was hilariously obvious town.

Subject: Tales of You (Pick) Scum thread

Oh and if people call me on WKing mastin Im going to channel some very recent energies and bitch at everyone for scumreading me for being right. Also this will cause mastin to rage in the dead thread.

Damn straight

.

Subject: Tales of You (Pick) Scum thread

Mastin isn't doesn't get off on scum wins as much as I do and that makes me more dangerous.

That's because you inherit more mafia PMs, AP.
My win percentage would be right up there with yours otherwise.

(Because Mastin doesn't stop walling just because the game's over. )

[mastin2]

btw, normally I never think about a godfather unless I need to, but in a Cabd game I was p much assuming there'd be one
I don't get why you all didn't assume the same thing tbh. I wasn't about to game the setup - I was trying to play this like a standard game exclusively focusing on reads without regard to role results, and hopefully the results would match my reads (which would indicate they were right)
yeah it was a lolcabdgame assumption but it was right so sue me

also the RG lynch was terrible. that slot was p much obvtown and I have no idea why they got lynched. at the end of the day all it took for me to get the correct scumteam was being 100% sure about {CF, Tammy, BWS} town and 99% sure on RG town - that was the lynch that ended up losing the game. protip: when NS is scum you can just ~feel~ the hatred of the role PM through his posts. but he was consistently posting and pushing people here, nothing like any of his scumgames - I don't like relying on lolmeta but that's one read you can generally get right. Brian was also p consistently town all game.

I don't mean to take anything away from the scumteam though. they did amazing

Basically, this, too.

mastin, when you call everyone scum you're bound to get everyone right eventually

Yeah, except saying I called everyone scum, while strictly technically almost-true, is a vast misrepresentation of what I did. For instance, Tammy/F-16 both never left the positive side of null, and after BROseidon's meltdown, he only crossed the line in lylo and only off of AP trolling at that and otherwise was above the line the whole time. AP (aside from a brief section on D1) never left my scum pile.

It's not a matter of calling players scum.
It's about honing in on which players actually are scum.
And when you look at the difference between my correct calls and my incorrect calls...the difference is that between night and day. My correct calls are

right on the money

dead-accurate; my incorrect calls are emotionally-charged paranoid irrationality.

When I have a beacon of sanity, my reads stay in the former and not the latter.
When I am pressured, they are progressively pushed into the latter and not the former.

(And by the way, as AP indicated, reading the dead PT ranting from me, in particular about Anakin Skywalker, is quite amusing.)

[mastin2]

That breakdown was 100% real (granted, mastin basically handwaving it even though she also contributed hugely is also a problem).

Yes, and as I said before, I can't really have sympathy when, as far as I can tell? You broke down over thinking we were scum pushing for your lynch.

Both our slots were town.
I'm expected to be sorry for you imagining a demon? When said 'demon' is myself,

also

on the verge of a mental breakdown?
(Read the beginning of my posting in the PT, BROseidon. I described symptoms of what I went through this game. I think it was a mental breakdown; I'd love to see you tell me it wasn't.)

When I said in my giant rant that "everyone who isn't standing up to mastin for her emotional manipulation is complicit in it," I was being completely serious.

And again. I was town.
You scumread me erroneously. And I pushed you as scum.
You broke down.
I backed off the scumread, and said that you were imagining a threat. (You were.)
I suppose you could call the truth emotional manipulation...but I said nothing not true. You broke down. It was over an imagined threat. I was town. Rancid was town. It didn't help that I was also on the verge of breaking myself. It runs both ways. If you're allowed to get upset at how you were treated, then don't pretend I'm not for how you treated me.

You say I attacked you personally. Bluntly, I didn't. I attacked the player. Not the person. And when I had reason to not attack the player...I stopped attacking the player, and tried to work with the player...which you interpreted as me continuing to attack the person. I might not have been working with you the best I could, but see also:

me going through my own breakdown

.

if you weren't so arrogant about it, nobody would give two shits about your bad reads being a huge contributing factor in this loss
if youre going to get upset about people calling you out for being arrogant about having bad reads, then stop being fucking arrogant about your reads. problem fucking solved.

(Basically, this.)

Subject: Tales of You (Pick) Scum thread

Spoiler: Things F-16 thinks about my game (for my reference, hence spoilered)

I found Penguin's posts on the whole to be extremely genuine and free-flowing. I explained this a long while ago in D1 but more recent events also pointed in the direction of Penguin being town. For example, her willingness to work with you in Post 263 in the neighborhood was super-town. I could see that she was somewhat frustrated at being consistently scumread and was trying very hard to make the discussion productive. It didn't feel like she was trying to placate you but more like genuinely trying to see your perspective if you assume Medea is town. I also liked her push on BRO D1. It came across as a very, forceful and direct attack which I find Penguin as scum unlikely to do. When Penguin mislynches players as scum, her attacks come across as weaker than her attacks as town and also the follow up on them is a lot less than her follow up as town. Her post 649 also gave me townvibes, in particular her read on BRO felt like she was taking responsibility for his lynch. Specifically, the "BRO needs rope" phrase is unlikely to come from Penguin as scum as it she is much more diplomatic and careful as scum. The thing that convinced me more than anything though was her strongarming the BRO lynch on D1 which is basically impossible to come from Penguin-scum. Her attempts to persuade Bazinga in Post 899 where she says "Mollie/bazinga, please consider how disjointed BRO's posts are when he gets grouchy. It's like he can't put on the grouchiness and legit-scum-hunt simultaneously" was too aggressive to come from scum. Not to mention that I was on the same page that she was about BRO D1 and I felt like the misread was reasonable especially considering that some aspects of BRO's play felt closer to his scum meta.

I played one game with scum-Penguin (Micro 295: Cowardly Hider) and even though I retracted the initial scumread that I had on her in that game, her flip in that game actually made me more sure that she was town here. I'll give you a quick summary of that game. ISO us and Penguin to follow along. Most of our initial posts were made by Nacho with me making just one post (our first, which was actually pretty boring) and checking out. We got attacked a lot for it from town (BRO in particular was going at us hard). Penguin then made Post 156. She defended us from BRO and bubbajack in a way that doesn't make sense at all and it betrayed that she had an underlying agenda. Also, specifically look at the careful, hesitant language she uses "Given F-16's posts, I'm also not seeing the tremendous disparity between BRO's thoughts and Ghatokaca's" which really reads as off on a gut level. Penguin is actually a very competent scum player. She is competent because she is good at making plans, strategizing and executing those plans while subtly pushing a scum agenda. In that game, she was trying to avoid our attention because she considered Nacho (and possibly me) to be a good player and didn't want to set off alarm bells for us. Hence the careful defense and it actually feels like she was walking around eggshells at that point which was what gave me a superstrong scumread on Penguin after which I post "tragic Penguin pictures" and yell about how I'd love to see Penguin getting lynched. She explains it away and convinces me to back off but it was that strong feeling I had which I note in Post 522 was the biggest red flag which I felt that I should have persued. I never even came close to getting that sort of feeling in this game.

In the first game I played with Penguin (Mini 1492: Harry Potter and the Chamber of Secrets), we were both town and for the most part, I had her in my POE list as possible scum (although my read was for much lamer reasons like a perceived inconsistency in logic), but I had my doubts based on a meta-dive of her that I previously had done. A few key things that weren't present in her scumgames were her willingness to work with others and the reactions to being scumread felt different. Specifically, see Post 791 where she asks me that if I was wrong about her, how my reads would change. It felt genuine and the desire to work with me there actually felt similar to her neighborhood QT post trying to work with you. On the other hand, go back to the Cowardly Hider and see her reaction to being scumread there. Post 489 felt very placatory and her effort to work with me was much more superficial and she immediately retracts it in Post 518. As a caveat, I did pile on more rhetoric and images than in the Harry Potter game but the reaction of quickly retracting the read, and placating while remaining cool and calculated points to someone who is confident enough in their scumgame to plan her moves well. On the other hand, Penguin as town feels more natural, occasionally gets passionate about her reads or impending lynch and is more blunt while trying to work with other players. Her later pushes on Nacho and ffery were also extremely natural, very direct, moderately forceful and powerful. There are times when I feel that Penguin as town doesn't let on that she is scumreading someone but holds it back but it all flows later on. Her scumread on ffery was one such example where she brings it up long after ffery's initial case on her. Compare this with their scumread on us this game for which she had reasons reaching as far back as D1 which she later admits that she was holding back (based on my not getting back to her on Hanzo). As scum, she holds back in a different way where she is a little self-conscious (I am not sure how to phrase this better, read that Cowardly Hider post).

I played another game with Penguin where I was scum and she town (Micro 264: ETL's Resistance Mafia). I noticed the same intent to work with players that I noticed in the Harry Potter game. Specifically, look at her directness in Post 178 where she attacks Mastin and tries to convince ArcAngel9 of her scumread. This was one of the things I based my scumread of her in Cowardly Hider on because I profiled her towngame as direct, and to the point and the lack of it in Cowardly Hider turned out to be a red flag. The rest of her ISO also contain fairly direct and to-the-point interactions.

So, those were the games I've played with Penguin. I've also read some of her older scumgames. I've actually read quite a lot of her games. The notable takeaway is that Penguin doesn't strongarm lynches as scum and doesn't push with the same amount of confidence that she showed here. I think it is probably because she doesn't consider it to be optimal scum strategy to get too much blood on her hands as the game progresses. Penguin as scum is also not as aggressive with regard to working with other players nor is she as direct in her attacks as she has been here. Her working with Bazinga to secure a BRO lynch and the way she tried to convince people of her early townreads on us and Mala has a forcefulness to them that she probably intentionally avoids as scum. Her play here has a solidity and reliability that is generally only present in her towngames. Her later play D2 and beyond has the same intention of working with players and her D2 defense of us in Post 1610 also had the same conviction that she displays as town. She is slightly less confident in her reads D2 but that is a reasonable result from her top scumread flipping town. But I still see the same desire to work with players while asserting herself and her own reads both in the neighborhood and in the game thread. Tl,dr; Medea is town because Penguin is way too aggressive, took way too much responsibility for the BRO lynch, and cares about her opinions and her choices of lynches going through much, much more than she does as town.

So I need to be aggressive, reach out to any town reads I get, and not be diplomatic. Heh, I'll get right on that...yell at some people, buddy others.

I think pushing mastin might be my absolute best bet in light of that. Say I see scum-mastin and take the line that I fucking well recognize scum-mastin by this point and I damn well won't second-guess my read again. And she can tell me this isn't her scum game until the cows come home, but I'm not swallowing that after the last two scum-mastin games. The extra good thing there is that the more she appeals to me, the more I won't believe her. Plus no one expects me to be on the ball with reads anyways.

Actually F-16 hilariously nailed the fact that PA was actively trying to NOT play to her Wicked meta.

I noticed.

[mastin2]

mastin, the posting from you that I had issue with was the guilt-trippy "I really hope BRO's scum b/c if he's town oh god he's playing terribly" posts that you kept putting out.

Except they were 100% correct and you yourself even admitted they were?

You were playing terribly. I called you out on playing terribly.

You had issues with me stating the truth.

[mastin2]

Like, I said you were playing badly.
Your posting post-game explicitly said that your early game was shit.
So I was explicitly saying something that

you agree with being true

.

'In retrospect' my ass. I knew I was correct at the time.

The thing about it is that you're continuing to always think the problem lies outside. You're continuing to think that it was something I did, when it was something you did at the time. Which you now know. But in the future, in the middle of the game, you're not going to act any differently. You're still going to think that it's something "I" (it can be anyone) did, rather than something you're doing. And when that game's over, you're going to go once again saying "In hindsight, it was on my end, but I had no way of knowing it was at the time".

Except yes you do.
By actually learning.
Like, this reminds me of the lectures I was on the receiving end of in my 2009 play.
When I actually started listening to them (took 'til 2011), I became a better player, because I actually DID stop making the same mistakes.

[mastin2]

Like...I have self-confidence issues.
All the damn time.

But I don't lie about them and put on a mask of arrogance.
(When I am arrogant, it's because...I'm being arrogant. And as soon as I realize I'm arrogant, I back down slightly.)
I tell the truth.

It doesn't keep people from following me.
It doesn't alienate them from me.
It gets them to pay attention to me and respect my honesty, and be willing to help me out.
For the betterment of both.

A healthy town attitude is not to think you're being attacked.
Especially not over things you've done that are objectively true in hindsight and subjectively true to the person saying them.
A healthy town attitude is to realize the intention behind the 'attack'. And in this game? That was town players, correctly calling you out on having wrong reads, trying to help you get better reads...yet instead of being open to their help, you used it to further antagonize both, poisoning the well further.

You say you think we might be similar, BRO.
And I think so, too.
But I've actually had experience with this reform.
Sometimes the message may be delivered too bluntly.
Sometimes the message may be delivered too profanely.
But that doesn't mean the message itself is toxic; the message is truthful no matter how much you don't want it to be.

[mastin2]

Of course from your PoV you knew you were right, because you could read your PM.
I couldn't, and I had an erroneous read.

And yet, I did my damnedest to communicate that you were wrong. I built as many bridges as I could; you were the one burning them down. Because you took it internally. You thought I was attacking your character. When what I was doing was, simply, reaching out to you. I tried to understand where you were coming from. You never reciprocated. I saw no effort to try and understand where I was coming from...and also no effort on your end to explain where you were coming from. Again because you wouldn't let me. You closed yourself off. And took things personally.

Whereas if you had opened up and

let us in

, the whole crisis would have been averted.

The only way to have prevented the situation from my end would have been to have had a correct read there.

This is the problem. You think there was no way to prevent it on your end, and it was purely on my end that it could be prevented. If you actually read my posting...you'll realize I changed approaches, multiple fucking times, in an attempt to do exactly that: prevent it. I put time and CONSIDERABLE effort into trying to bridge the gap and get you to open up...

...But because you thought and still think it's not something you could have stopped, that it wasn't something of your doing...that was impossible.

You can see it throughout nearly the whole game, even.
I was open. Rancid was open. Katsuki was open. RG was open. LB was open. Heck, Mara/Orc was open, too.
The neighborhood was shut.
In more ways than one.

The players who were most accurate were the players who let others in and tried to get into others.
Efforts which you're saying you think not possible on your end.

Except they are.
And they work.

The closest time you've gotten to reading me correctly was in the Xeno games...where you let that happen.
The games where you've read me wrong are the games where you've closed yourself off from others.

You just need to see it and recognize it.
Not in hindsight.
Hindsight's crap.

In the damn game. Pay attention to it.
And I can guarantee you.
GUARANTEE you.

That it'll go better for you than it did here.
Don't get self-absorbed.

[mastin2]

Mastin as you know, Bro wasn't the only player who interpreted what you meant as reach-outs to be attacks. There is probably a takeaway in that for you as well.

Yes because I was undergoing a mental breakdown and recognized and acknowledged as much. Even when alive, I flat-out said that I wasn't communicating it as effectively as I could be...but that I was trying all the same.

[mastin2]

I'm a cheerleader, in life and in death.

(The problem is that you thought my cheerleading when alive came from scum and that when dead the message of the cheers didn't come through. )

And I also just read the Tammy/PA PT.
PA is

incredibly

manipulative in there, and not even subtly so. Blatantly. If I had been there, I woulda lynched her for it because it's not something you need hindsight for; you can just tell that her posting in there is, well...
...Well, it's the exact type of posting a scuMastin will do for a QT.

And also Tammy's paranoia a plenty. <3

[mastin2]

(Still planning on writing the Ballad of Tales, revised edition, btw.)

[mastin2]

You can't even say, "O, he's just trolling now, he must be a godfather!" because peoples' playstyle tends to change radically even as town once they've been inno'd.

Except it's AP. He explicitly was trolling. (This is why lynching the player who can actually READ AP is a Very Bad Idea

(TM)

.)

This is some good reinforcement for why I value reads over nearly anything else in mafia most of the time. I learned to play mafia in an environment where something like 90% of the games had godfathers.

I, too, typically trust reads over roles. (And while I grew up on MS.net, I also play mafia on a site that doesn't go a game withOUT a role called 'Godfather', though because roles aren't standardized there, what said Godfather does changes each game, but having investigation immunity happens an average of 50-75% of the time.)

The correct approach to having a result is of course to bring it forth, but also explain why you think what you do about the result: its validity or falsehood. This is one of the reasons I placed so much hope on F-16; he actually did exactly this--analyzed the result, and explained exactly why he thought AP was scum exploiting it for all its worth. (He was.) The result was not blindly discarded, which would happen if in spite of the result, people pushed AP without thinking of it and maybe without even mentioning it. (Objectively bad play, even if correct in this particular game.) The result should also have continued to not be blindly followed, ESPECIALLY given that non-conftown were dieing in droves over allegedly-conftown. (PV and Beli both had suspicion on them and were not conftown. Why'd they die over AP who allegedly was? Answer: because AP was scum.)

The town power wasn't trivial though lol. If I got lynched d2, scum would have lost. If we hadn't used PRs on n2 completely ideally, we would have lost. Almost 100% guarantee.

This, too.
Blaming the setup is a cop-out. (Ha.) It's easy to say that it's the setup's fault. Just like it's easy to say that it's not the town players' on a mislynch fault. It's easy to place the blame elsewhere. And perhaps some exists. (Even though I think the game was balanced.) But you'll never learn from your mistakes if you always think the fault lies elsewhere.