A uPick of Ice & Fire - Day 12 - #REKT?

[Cephrir]

Vote: Goat on a Raft

I hate goats.

[Cephrir]

We're not gonna sign probably. SSK and I have different enough voices though that it shouldn't be too hard to discern us though. Example: the other posts in this thread are all SSK. I sometimes refer to myself as a friendly wolf token, too.

I cannot tell the difference between posters in virtually any hydra because I am not very observant. As such, I would like to request that everyone sign.

[Cephrir]

UNVOTE: StupendousMan, VOTE: Cephrir

Cephrir could have joined kanye in getting the game started. He didn't.

o.O

[Cephrir]

I'm usually really good at getting early (like, by page 5, accurate) townreads. But I'm not getting like, any yet.
This is disconcerting.

Why mention townreads early?

RVS+early game post townreads are my thing. To a lesser extent I've read people as scum accurately from their first 3-5 posts in a game before as well.
But this game is an exception in that I'm getting a lot of not understanding motivations for a lot of actions, and it's screwing with my early reads. I like my early reads, I felt it noteworthy to mention.

Pedit: If it's not an obvious dan post, it's a chesskid post on this one.

In your case I don't really care about signing, as far as I'm concerned you aren't really a hydra. No one else gets a pass though.

[Cephrir]

hes trying to setup to scumread me and push the wagon away from him. dont mind him.

I'm not scumreading you. I'm just not townreading you, when based on post 10 I was expecting to quickly form a nice solid townread there.

Are reads that early often accurate for you? (If so, I'm impressed)

[Cephrir]

Oh noes I am being scumread by kayne who knows me from such games as HAVE WE EVEN MET BEFORE? If you want to make an issue of it, dance like so!

##Vote: kayneknowsbest

Seriously tell me how I look that makes me hawter or colder then usual. You wanna start a fight, COME AT ME BRO!

Badass woomens

God damnit! This is like mod-enforced punishment. I'll just wait until a hunky man makes himself known to me.

Keep this up.

I'm usually really good at getting early (like, by page 5, accurate) townreads. But I'm not getting like, any yet.
This is disconcerting.

Why mention townreads early?

RVS+early game post townreads are my thing. To a lesser extent I've read people as scum accurately from their first 3-5 posts in a game before as well.
But this game is an exception in that I'm getting a lot of not understanding motivations for a lot of actions, and it's screwing with my early reads. I like my early reads, I felt it noteworthy to mention.

Pedit: If it's not an obvious dan post, it's a chesskid post on this one.

So you wouldn't want to publically acknowledge any of them, right?

-SSK

I usually don't have an issue with having open reads. If I had any solid reads one way or another, I wouldn't have any issue sharing them, no.

But if you point out an easy town member early in the game, not only will it have an impact as a foundation for all reads, but it will also make them an easy target for scum?

hes trying to setup to scumread me and push the wagon away from him. dont mind him.

I'm not scumreading you. I'm just not townreading you, when based on post 10 I was expecting to quickly form a nice solid townread there.

Are reads that early often accurate for you? (If so, I'm impressed)

Townreads yes
scumreads no

Aren't the mutually exclusive?

-SSK

Are you scum?

We're not gonna sign probably. SSK and I have different enough voices though that it shouldn't be too hard to discern us though. Example: the other posts in this thread are all SSK. I sometimes refer to myself as a friendly wolf token, too.

I cannot tell the difference between posters in virtually any hydra because I am not very observant. As such, I would like to request that everyone sign.

If you're not able to differentiate hydra members due to writing/playstyle, they are able to fake who wrote each post if they are called out for inconsistency and whatnot. Signing is pointless; if differentiating people is important for you, go read their completed games to see how they write.

As for your "no [hydra] else gets a pass" on signing, bah. Get better at recognizing writers, then you don't need signatures and can try and figure out if they are impersonating each other. It's fun.)

I suppose I probably won't end up caring. It still annoys me on principle, though.

[Cephrir]

@mollie: I care about which hydra head is posting when I'm dealing with anyone I've played with before (your hydra for instance, though it's easy to tell from your refusal to use caps). But I suppose all the hydras here that have a head I'm familiar with will be pretty easy to tell apart except maybe Garruk and Desp's hydra, but I don't think my experience with them is all that useful anyhow.

VOTE: elleheathen

Interested in seeing where this goes.

[Cephrir]

Though it's not the word choice that attracts me to the wagon so much as the content

[Cephrir]

chesskid and Tierce are probably town; I thought Shadoweh was town but 149 is not so good.

[Cephrir]

Okay so I'm thinking shadoweh might be town. I doubt shed attempt to get with tierce if she were scum unless she knew that tierce would choose a female anyway and was doing it for show, but then it would be kinda silly because there'd be no way that anyone would know why she was making those hints unless she caught onto what I was referring to in my first posts but then that would just be kinda convoluted and silly and im kinda worried we can't both be town, but then it would also be booville for us not to be, and I'm out guessing the mod which I definitely shouldn't be.

Actiondan can you hurry up and get your ass in here and tell me what shadoweh's alignment is? Please and thank you.

...wtf is this shit?

[Cephrir]

@Alfred: I was liking the manner in which Shadow was messing around (gut reasons I suppose) but this:

Your face is probably scum. You're seriously not going to give any reasoning, are you. People like you are agonizing to talk to.

See, I actually LIKE this random wagon.
VOTE: Eleeheathen

How can you like a wagon that's random? Put another way, if you think the wagon is made out of ADD rejects why would you join without some kind of validation so people understand you're not randomly voting?

Getting upset with and discrediting whoever-it-was for not giving reasons when the game's been going on for like a few hours. That makes me more cautious. That and the elle wagon is clearly not random.

Though I guess some people are more concerned with the possible scumslip, I just didn't like her melodramatic whiteknight.

[Cephrir]

VOTE: elleheathen yeah I am way supercomfy with that wagon. the wight comment reads too much like a slip to ignore this early in the game.

How could that even

be

a slip when I'm talking from the POV of someone else and not even referencing myself but someone that hasn't shown up yet?

He's saying it sounds like you know the scumteam is made up of wights, I believe, when there are essentially infinite possible scumteam themes.

And wights are a thing, in case you aren't aware. They're from the big cold place. I sure do like that place, even though it scares me sometimes.

[Cephrir]

I think what she's getting at is the wights was intentional. He was voting for someone who hand t confirmed...therefore a wight. Badumtiss.

Also, it's a upick. In upicks faraday decides roles before alignments. So a scum team of wights is really really low on the possibility scale.

I happen to agree with you. I'm just pointing out what the theory seems to be.

VOTE: elleheathen yeah I am way supercomfy with that wagon. the wight comment reads too much like a slip to ignore this early in the game.

How could that even

be

a slip when I'm talking from the POV of someone else and not even referencing myself but someone that hasn't shown up yet?

He's saying it sounds like you know the scumteam is made up of wights, I believe, when there are essentially infinite possible scumteam themes.

And wights are a thing, in case you aren't aware. They're from the big cold place. I sure do like that place, even though it scares me sometimes.

I know what wights are, craven. Should I get you a blanket t'hide under?

[not quite ^.^]

[Cephrir]

The accuracy of scumslips I've seen on MS is probably south of the accuracy you'd get choosing lynches at random. I don't know why anyone still pursues them.

[Cephrir]

Honestly I'm still not really sure what you expected me to do there, but I also don't really care.

[Cephrir]

Claim

: Miller.

So the claim is at least optimal play that coincides with what your playstyle is (at least in regards to not wanting to have to play under the radar) so then what's your flavor name?

How will knowing this help anyone? It'll probably come out eventually.

[Cephrir]

Oh sweet mercy, really?

Really?

13 pages since game start?
13 pages in about 18 hours?
Whilst I am in v/la times?

Yeah...

Claim

: Not reading all of that unless someone tells me something amazing happened during it.

oh, and also;

Claim

: Miller.

Boo-yah, now, thanks to site meta, basically I'm conf. town, in yo' faces, now I can be even *more* snarky than normal and get away with it.

In other news, who is the biggest wagon? I want to vote them.

I don't actually like this very much. The refusal to read not-really-that-much given that you're a pretty analytical/careful player as well as the "lookit me I'm conftown" style of claiming miller.

[Cephrir]

Claim

: Miller.

So the claim is at least optimal play that coincides with what your playstyle is (at least in regards to not wanting to have to play under the radar) so then what's your flavor name?

How will knowing this help anyone? It'll probably come out eventually.

I'd like to see if it in any way would coincide with what flavor I'd expect a miller to be drawn from as my natural inclination is to suspect claims - especially when they come in with 'Fuck 18 pages, initiate RVS vote because I'm clearly conftown'.

But

VOTE: Cephrir

Because it should have been very obvious why I was asking - and not only that, what's the harm in asking the flavor name when he's revealed what his role is?

I only follow strength - or lead by example.

1. It is decidedly not obvious.
2. He's probably not *just* a miller.

[Cephrir]

I don't actually like this very much. The refusal to read not-really-that-much given that you're a pretty analytical/careful player as well as the "lookit me I'm conftown" style of claiming miller.

I don't think you actually know my playstyle at all if you remotely think either behavior is unusual from me.
Hell, I do both when I have no logical reason to back up either decision other than ;aziness and pride respectively - I will certainly do them off v/la and role-verification at the drop of a hat.
Why do you think I wouldn't?

The former can be explained by me not really understanding your playstyle. The latter, eh, not so much. I wasn't saying especially that I don't like *you* doing the latter, I wouldn't like anyone for doing that.

Just from impressions I have of you (both recent and long past) you don't seem like the type to not read threads, but I could be wrong.

[Cephrir]

2. You could be - let's see if anyone even blinks an eye at me doing so.
But what is your experience with me as a man who reads everything? I know we've played together before, but which games?

It's not "I know Thor reads everything so much as "I know Thor tries pretty hard at this game so I would think he'd want all the available information". But if you say you don't always read everything, I believe you. If you want me to refer to past games anyhow- I thought I'd played with you prior to my first departure from the site, but I don't think that's possible due to your join date, so I must just be thinking of Open 326, which I briefly returned for and then re-disappeared.

[Cephrir]

But less about you ability to dredge up a fakeclaim flavor role that would match and more about it being an easy way for me to weigh the merit of the claim and not have to focus on it if it were to mesh up for me.

Also, seriously, my rolename will help you quantify the validity of the rather normal and pointed claim of 'Miller'?
...
How's that help your read of my roleclaim?

P-Edit: It doesn't.

@Ooba - that is a terrible misrep and you should feel terrible.

It is? Who's being misrepped? o.O

[Cephrir]

... So why FOS someone that hasn't been on yet?
All you're doing is making very little of what your FOS should be when it has actual merit behind it besides 'OHEYTHISGUYHASNTLOGGEDINYET. MUSTBEAWIGHT!'

@Nacho: I didn't like this post because of the way it goes about defending someone who isn't here yet. You're allowed to do that, but this is too far and smells like trying to score points with a townie.

Meanwhile, her other posts have been okay, but the vote on me seemed like an over-the-top reaction (especially when there were worse votes on her). The unvote post is pretty good though. If something convincing comes along I may move my vote, but everything else I have is pretty insubstantial and gut-based at this point.

[Cephrir]

@Alfred: "Keep this up" = "I'm leaning town on you because of this".

I understand why Tammy might be suspicious of Shadow but it seems voteworthy. I guess there are possible reasons she wouldn't want to go that far with it, but I can't imagine what else could be going on there (ie with Shadow). This comment is deliberately vague.

[Cephrir]

Stupendousman doing a less than stupendous job of trying to look useful

[Cephrir]

I think it's entirely reasonable that Thor could be told he investigates as guilty only to standard cops. I for one would include things like that in a setup design even if there weren't non-standard cops. Trackers getting guilties on millers is preposterous.

I am beginning to believe Shadoweh is indeed town (again), though the softclaiming issue will need to be cleared up at some point before I can be fully comfortable. This is not an invitation to clear it up, of course, just noting.

Some of Alfred's reads confuse me, but I won't give them the Spanish Inquisition if they're already claiming not to have much reasoning. My most emphatic disagreement is probably Andrius, though I'd also love to hear why Goat is town.

I was going to vote StupendousMan, but upon noticing how new he is, it occurred to me that his line of questioning on mollie could actually be legitimate slash not fake.

[Cephrir]

If a wagon made me feel like Sarah Michelle Gellar I'm not sure whether or not that would garner my vote

[Cephrir]

Andrius

elleheathen
Goat on a Raft (Channeldelibird/AurorusVox)
Messiah Complex (Desperado/Formerfish)
ooba
PeaceBringer
quadz08
SafetyDance
StupendousMan
Syryana
Thor665

Which one?

I'm a helper!

[Cephrir]

UNVOTE:

I think that summarizes my thoughts on recent events.

[Cephrir]

like seriously, check out ooba's iso

hello post
brief readslist
joke
explanation of joke
post 331, which is confusing at best and a misrep at worst
says he "still" reads elle as town after not mentioning outside of 331
response to question
asks about vote on himself

he has generated no actual content; his only reads were the initial readslist, his townread on elle, and then a couple of scumreads after Thor explicitly asked him to point out some scum for him

- My reads are my content

says he "still" reads elle as town

after not mentioning outside of 331

- elle is the first read on my "initial readslist"

"then a couple of scumreads after Thor explicitly asked him to point out some scum for him"

- This is a misrep that makes it sound like I never mentioned scumreads before this - kanye and Shadow were also mentioned in the "initial readslist" (although Cephrir and Garruk reduced on the scummy meter in the few pages in between)

- AlfredBow has not mentioned me anywhere except for the vote - so wanted to know why he thought I was scummy

Upon reread to determine whether I believe ooba is town, I now dislike the quoted quadz post a good deal. (incidentally, no verdict on ooba yet)

[Cephrir]

UNVOTE:

I think that summarizes my thoughts on recent events.

Wanna join me on Goat? I still don't like quadz, but I can leave him alone for a second since there's some back and forth in his ISO.

Vote: Goat on a Raft

They're probably second on my list of mild concerns. Perhaps down the line.

VOTE: quadz

[Cephrir]

Also, people were jumping to claim it being a scum slip that the scum team were made up of wights, which is impossible. Faraday picks roles first in upicks. Then he picks alignments. A wight could be town, while Rob Stark could be scum.

What do you think of what Tierce and Shadoweh said about this?

Anyway, I don't buy that the mods would have informed the miller about the presence of non-standard cops, so Thor's miller claim looks bogus,
- I'm a miller, but you could still investigate me as town.

Unvote
Vote Thor

This is the most bullshit vote I've EVER seen in my life.

ANY MILLER RETURNS TOWN TO NON-STANDARD COP ROLES, OR IT IS THEN NOT A MILLER BUT SOMETHING ELSE (ie a universal miller, a gravedigger, etc.)

Saying so is not giving additional information and suggesting this is like, blowing my fucking mind. I need to sit with this a bit because my initial reaction is to call zdenek scum for this because he's not a fucking idiot, but it might be kneejerk there.

This quadz wagon is lame. ooba is better. elle is town.

thor will sort itself out.

I believe I've seen it, but also, it's astonishing to me that this looks worse to you than anything else in the thread. What could possibly be alignment indicative about his misunderstanding even if you're completely right?

What does any of that have to do with my pride and joy read?

you aren't pushing it and most people are calling them town
my first expectation is that you're looking for a nice wagon to jump on

Kanye is clearly town-kanye here,

You're that sure about this read AND you expect town-Zdenek to pick up in it? Why?

First point seems lame. I don't find Amrun's behavior wrt chesskid to be out of line.

Agrred on second. I don't think kanye is obviously town by any stretch of the imagination, so I don't see why it should be obvious.

If what I've already said on the matter hasn't inspired people to vote for Pride and Joy, repeating myself like a broken record won't, either. If Pride and Joy continues to strike me as scummy, I'll point out scummy things as they occur. I don't even understand the style of play you're advocating, but it's safe to say it isn't mine.

Yeah, I kinda hate getting attacked because I'm not jumping down my suspects' throats. It takes a lot to get me to do that.

All the people giving Thor possible responses are irritating me to no end.

I didn't really think of this, so sorry. But it's really hard not to respond when you say something so preposterous, like, say you got a cop innocent on someone and voted them because that's suspicious. It's just too baffling not to say anything.

Expect me to accidentally wander into others' lines of questioning like this, I'm very oblivious about that strategy.

I'm down for a D1 policy lynch. I don't get why Thor says site meta he's confirmed town??? Because he opened claiming.. so? Faraday himself has had scum partners open claiming miller, and then go onto win. So opening while, optimal site strategy (i guess in MD)... doesn't prove jack shit.

Its D1... lets do it.

unvote vote Thor

@Thor

why did you have Casso as a Upick, and was he your first pick?

what

no

why

this is stupid

It's not "I know Thor reads everything so much as "I know Thor tries pretty hard at this game so I would think he'd want all the available information". But if you say you don't always read everything, I believe you. If you want me to refer to past games anyhow- I thought I'd played with you prior to my first departure from the site, but I don't think that's possible due to your join date, so I must just be thinking of Open 326, which I briefly returned for and then re-disappeared.

I feel like you sort of extracted the whole 'Thor would read everything' belief from wholecloth, yes/no?

Assuming this means "you're basically jumping to unjustified conclusions right?" then yes.

I don't see the misrep by ooba that Thor is pushing.

That's odd because;

Thor's accusation of a misrep makes a lot more sense now.

Ooba was able to figure it out.
Why so thick?

I wish one of you would spell it out for the class. I don't care about the point itself anymore, but this is a frustrating way to answer questions and I will get upset with you if you continue to provide snark when you could just as easily provide answers.

Wait, what? Wouldn't your role PM already tell you how you'd show up to cop investigations?

I think it did, and I provided you that information.
Oh, wait, are you accussing me of claiming that the mod didn't reveal the existence or lack thereof of multiball in my Miller PM?
Because that seems pretty normal really.

Defensive much? It didn't even sound like he was accusing you of anything.

Sort of want to lynch Benny or Zeddy now.
Benny manages to make very slightly less sense than Zeddy - and that takes some doing.

Unvote: Elli-alaphabet
Vote: Benmage

I may be down with the ooba lulz wagon, but I'll admit the copping to the misrep actually feels townish. Ooba is certainly skilled enough that might be a feint to the growing pressure...but my gut kind of says town on that one too, so I think we can do better.
Let's lynch Benny for lulz, I like to lynch him Day 1 anyway.

Advocating lynching Benmage via yolologic(TM) the same way he was advocating lynching you? =/

[Cephrir]

I believe I've seen it, but also, it's astonishing to me that this looks worse to you than anything else in the thread. What could possibly be alignment indicative about his misunderstanding even if you're completely right?

I think it shows a mindset of looking to make the miller claim look bad, hoping that will result in a lynch, without really thinking about it. For example, he's ready to vote and declare Thor scum over something that he agreed after being criticized and looked at the wiki was not something pursuable. If you're going to vote for a role-based reason that would be cleared up by looking at the wiki, wouldn't you like ... look at the wiki FIRST, instead of after being called out on it?

It's meh, though. I'm going to keep observing on that score.

Who would honestly expect something so flimsy to result in a lynch? =/

But OK.

[Cephrir]

So now we're up to the stage of "well, it

could

be a gambit, therefore it is". You're saying that behaviour which is normal for him, which he is either doing genuinely in this game or done a fine impression of him doing genuinely in this game, is a reason to lynch him. If you want to lynch him solely because he claimed miller, just say as much.

How many times must I say... I find him scummy not for his claim, but rather the way he auto-confirmed himself town. Him not referencing his "site meta"... but choosing to be cutesy, isn't helping even if that is status quo. But again... not his claim... THE WAY HE CLAIMED!!!!

I don't think he honestly expected anyone to decide he was conftown for claiming miller.

What you say here does not rebut Goat's point.

[Cephrir]

Are we really going to play the join date elitism game in this thread? I'd be willing to bet join date is not statistically significant for anything except possibly being mislynched D1. Most 2013s are probably better scumhunters than me. So kindly take that argument and [redacted for decency].

[Cephrir]

Okay, I know it may be that I come from a different culture, but honestly when I read that last post it just comes off as noise. There is nothing in that wall that makes me go, hmm, need to consider that... just blah blah blah... so that sets of alarms-

pedit: not thor's post, the one before it.

It seems fine to me and not particularly worse than any of the actual noise going on in this thread... if you can't explain this better than I don't know what you're talking about

You'll note I also asked you to provide meta, and you gave me an equivalent ropeadope - so that's a pretty weak backhand coming from you.
If we want to do this seriously one of us would need to dig up all the Miller claims for the past year and examine them.
I'm personally never going to do that - but I bet I'm dead right about what went down with the majority of them.
That's what makes it site meta.

I would imagine their rate of being lynched is roughly what random chance would dictate. Just like it will be here, I plan on judging as though it didn't happen. I suppose this means all scum should claim miller in games with me, but, whatever.

[Cephrir]

I will say, I feel kinda like you're using the whole miller deal as a way to play purely reactively and I'd like to see you do some legitimate scumhunting rather than continue replying to Benmage.

[Cephrir]

Roles were assigned before alignments. THerefore Thor is almost certainly a miller and that almost certainly has no bearing on his alignment. Now can we please move on.

[Cephrir]

@Thor: I don't get your playstyle, nor do I care for it. We've got three walls about Benmage and now one throwaway comment about Alfred. I don't get why you'd handle two apparent scumreads in polar opposite ways. And least of all, I don't get your fascination with trying to deliberately infuriate people while insisting they answer your questions without answering any of theirs.

[Cephrir]

Interacting with you is completely pointless. I'm not going to bother with it.

Tragically this matches up with past experience so I guess you're probably town.

[Cephrir]

No, that is not okay. Go away.

[Cephrir]

You ignored questions about your rolename roughly seven thousand times.

And responding with sarcasm to questions does not count as answering them.

[Cephrir]

Messiah's entrance is kinda scummy for me, don't care for the note formatting as they don't feel like how a townie would keep their notes, but I do agree with their vote and assessment of SM. Why no special mention of Garuk if one of your heads is apparently scumreading half their posts- just because that head isn't the one posting?

[Cephrir]

Forgot to mention- method of attacking SM is kind of robotic (because that's every post he's made, even though neither of you had notes about 2 of his posts on initial read) even if the points it makes are solid.

[Cephrir]

Messiah's entrance is kinda scummy for me, don't care for the note formatting as they don't feel like how a townie would keep their notes, but I do agree with their vote and assessment of SM. Why no special mention of Garuk if one of your heads is apparently scumreading half their posts- just because that head isn't the one posting?

How would a townie keep notes? I read through the game and mentioned posts that leaned one direction or the other.

Pretty much yeah.

With more detail than "post X is scummy".

Forgot to mention- method of attacking SM is kind of robotic (because that's every post he's made, even though neither of you had notes about 2 of his posts on initial read) even if the points it makes are solid.

It's robotic because most of the points made are also reiteration. If I had left a naked vote would you be questioning that format as well?

I'm not sure why you're going out of your way to be suspect of the formatting of the post when you agree with the content. What's up with that?.

A.) No, it's robotic because it's a PBPA when it didn't need to be. Yes, I would absolutely be questioning that as well.

B.) I'm not going out of my way to do anything, and I don't care for your implication that I did. If I don't like something, I'm going to say it.

[Cephrir]

My current vote is equally if not more valid. I'm allowed to agree without voting with you.

I'm sure you could easily provide a reason for each post, but I know that when I'm town catching up on a thread I write a solid sentence every time a post pings me.

I don't see what's wrong with b).

[Cephrir]

I'll believe Syr is town when I get a decent reason to believe it.

macmollie, what on earth makes you think SD is "lynchbait" with his one completely useless post?

syrlacious I was talking to you

I will only speak with mollie when she shows up. I dislike how hard she's lurking right now.

Not that I probably have as much experience with her but I'm feeling similarly.

[Cephrir]

Oh good, I was worried I might miss out on this day 1 tradition

[Cephrir]

The 'I'm a conftown Miller

and Innocent Child basically.'

The claim.

The fakenameclaim.

The fact that he gets super defensive and derogatory that I would dare to suggest that the almighty Thor is scum when what I am actually doing is asking him for a reason to believe that his miller claim is legit and for a reason to think he's town -

and

I state this prior.

The sarcasm that doesn't always looks like sarcasm until it's later presented as sarcasm in the most sarcastic way possible - and this is only an issue because it feels like nothing he says can be taken at face value or believed, even if he

is

town.

Ceph's note: You have greatly oversimplified what she's saying here.

The fact that even

if

his miller claim is legit it doesn't mean he's town. (And makes it a great gambit to make given that no other cop role can confirm his

alignment

. (And correct me if I'm wrong here because I'm not overly familiar with all roles but day cop, flavor cop, gunsmith, role cop, faction cop, tracker, follower, watcher, voyeur - none of these variations can confirm whether he is scum or not.)

I would beg to differ that trackers and followers can say much about your alignment, since you performing a kill would be rather stupid at this juncture. But this point isn't important.

If he's town, at best, he's anti-town that wastes drawing all of our peekaboo-power to him for a search to prove him town when he can't be proven town - and when it's unlikely that town would out themselves to prove he's anything but scum and even then, no guarantees unless they're chopping block material.

There are a number of reasons why this claim is wonky - I mean, considering alone how alignments came after roles, this could be a brilliant gambit. For example, it could be a miller/watcher/whatever else scum team and he's using this claim to draw our investigative roles to his scumbud so that they know who all those PR's are.

Yes, completely out-there speculation. No, probably not as easy as all that. Yes, good probability that I'm wrong. And yes, mostly gut. Take it with a grain of salt, if you like.

I think a lot of it stems from reading his scum qt's and the fact that this seems exactly the type of gambit he would try to pull off as scum - if just 'for the lols'.

And because I feel lucky.

Elle's case on me summed up.

He claimed Miller, thereby not allowing us to use a Cop to discern his alignment.
Therefore, since I find him hard to read because he's sarcastic, he must be scum.
Also, this is probably a gambit to out non-cops.
Y'know, because scum probably have something to help him with that.

I will ignore that he may have claimed Miller to help town by not having cops waste shots on him (something that, in reading so many of his games he always seems to feel happens.) and also that his sarcasm is a brutal and total playstyle tell from him...something I *also* should have been able to figure out if I looked at his other games like I said I did.

@Elle - what games did you look at where you got the vibe that sarcasm is remotely a tell on me in any way at all...and if you don't think it is, why is it part of your case on me? Me being hard to read for you is *NOT* actually a sensible scum case...sure, you can vote me over it, but at least admit how bad the case is when you make it and don't try to dress it up.

Whassup?

Oh, also, and in correcting you if you're wrong - with a Miller claim the following roles can all provide rather serious evidence about my alignment; gunsmith, role cop, faction cop, tracker, follower.
Neither Watcher or Voyuer can but...then again, they can't do so for anyone they target...though I suppose if they watched or Voyeured someone *I* targeted, then, again, they would help identify my alignment (since, y'know, Thor would have lied...y'know).
Flavor cop wouldn't help until and if I was forced to nameclaim...also known as 'the only way a Flavor Cop ever helps in a uPick' so it's meaningless because he's as effective versus me as versus anyone.
Yes, a regular cop could not help alignment identify me...because I am a Miller...which is the entire concept of Miller.
You might as well whine that a Cop doesn't help you find a Godfather

Hey Thor- bolded are parts of elle's case you have just completely ignored while giving your smarmy-ass 'summary'. You are misrepresenting her pretty hard while also only responding to her weak points. I recognize that not all of these are things you can answer to and you've already addressed some of them, but this post of yours is essentially still lying.

elle is town.

[Cephrir]

here are a number of reasons why this claim is wonky - I mean, considering alone how alignments came after roles, this could be a brilliant gambit. For example, it could be a miller/watcher/whatever else scum team and he's using this claim to draw our investigative roles to his scumbud so that they know who all those PR's are.

This too, though it isn't a fantastic point.

[Cephrir]

The 'I'm a conftown Miller

and Innocent Child basically.'

If she would like to say that she honestly believes I claimed Innocent Child I will respond to this.
Heck, if you would like to claim that I will also respond to this.
Step right up, I'm game, Thor will be smary to you for demanding he respond to derpy blather additions to a case

I should have bolded 'conftown' as well. You dropped the fact that she suspects you for the overconfident attitude entirely from post 764 when it was clearly a significant element.

The fakenameclaim.

I did respond to this by pointing out it was fake.
I also think that the number of people calling Benmage silly for treating my claim of being Casso as serious shows that it was actually relatively clear it was a joke unless you were being rather odd about how you read my claim there.
Again - if either you or she would like to clarify why this was scummy as opposed to sarcasm that was treated as serious by a tiny minority of the game I will respond to whatever the scum part of the case is.
Man, I totally am dodging *brilliant* stuff here in misrepping her case on me as kinda dumb, aren't I?

I have zero problem with your actual actions with regard to this, but again, it's a point she wanted addressed that you pretended didn't exist. Pointing out it was fake is useless, she's aware it was fake and doesn't seem to like the way you went about that. I'm not saying this case is blowing the game wide open, I'm saying I don't like the technique you used to dismiss it. I don't see the town motivation in ignoring half of it and representing the case as worse than it actually is by dropping parts of it.

The fact that he gets super defensive and derogatory that I would dare to suggest that the almighty Thor is scum when what I am actually doing is asking him for a reason to believe that his miller claim is legit and for a reason to think he's town -

and

I state this prior.

Kindly list for me all the ways I can prove my Miller claim is legit - I will then do them.
Kindly list for me all the ways I'm supposed to reassure someone that siimply because a player makes a Miller claim it doesn't actually make them either more or less inherently scummy (though I would suggest my claim has enough specifics in it and actual *ruling IN* of ways to investigate me that it's a pretty weak scum gambit if such as my intention.
Gosh, lucky I dodged addressing this...?

The thrust of this point has nothing to do with your miller claim, it has to do with your attitude.

Ceph's note: You have greatly oversimplified what she's saying here.

That's oddly the common definition of "summary" with the added addition of "over"
We're still trying to figure out the parts I cut out that are worth a darn, but I'll address them anyway to help you feel safe.

Brilliant deduction.

Whether these points are incredible or not is irrelevant to the fact that 764 has no purpose except to misrep the case and continue trying to make everything about your miller claim.

I think a lot of it stems from reading his scum qt's and the fact that this seems exactly the type of gambit he would try to pull off as scum - if just 'for the lols'.

I did address this.
I actually flat out stated to her that it didn't look like she had read my games at all.
You've been in *one* game with me and seem to understand already that I am sarcastic...so why do you think she missed it after looking at game*s*?
And, if all she did was look at scum QTs...then I don't think she then has any right to make a value call on my play except insomuch as awareness that I would be willing to pull a gambit...which is, y'know, something so few scum players are willing to do...being known for not fakeclaiming most of the time...yes.

So you're saying you wouldn't? Not that I think this is a gambit even if you're scum.

elle is town.

Probably so.
Doesn't mean I shouldn't point out that she doesn't know which end of a shotgun to hold though, is it?

You're allowed to say a case is bad. You're not allowed to do so via pretending half of it doesn't exist.

here are a number of reasons why this claim is wonky - I mean, considering alone how alignments came after roles, this could be a brilliant gambit. For example, it could be a miller/watcher/whatever else scum team and he's using this claim to draw our investigative roles to his scumbud so that they know who all those PR's are.

This too, though it isn't a fantastic point.

Really?
But she's town man, you aren't supposed to point out to her that she's derpy...like Thor did...and you got defensive about...by pointing out other derpy things she said...and having issue with me not addressing their derp that altogether still means nothing...?

Huzzah?

Want to sheep me now?
It will be a better use of your time.

If I was going to sheep someone, it sure as hell wouldn't be you.

[Cephrir]

Do people really believe that Thor is scum? I don't have much experience playing with him, but he did school me in my first newbie game. He doesn't seem to be acting the way he did in that game, where he came out the gate at full tilt and was putting people on their heels to start with. I am not getting the same vibe I was in that game at all. I would firmly put him as town, and those who are still pushing this ill advised and misshapen train on him should reevaluate their positions.

I'm not really sure. I'd love it if someone more familiar could tell me how Thor plays scum.

@Cephrir- you didn't like the way we came in the game when it was like 25 pages deep? Would you rather we had come in and said we weren't/hadn't read the thread yet and started playing from there, ignoring everything else that had already happened? And do you have anything specific you would like to go over with us?

There's nothing wrong with catchup posts as a rule. I just don't like the "sXXX" format of scumhunting. But it's not like I'm voting you right now, I know coming in late can be a bumpy ride, I just have an eye on you as we move forward. I did ask why you didn't mention any specific issues with Garruk despite giving them 7ish scum points, that's a real question. Though frankly if the result of your catchup had been to vote for them (they had the most scummy posts so vote them) would have attracted a lot more ire than what you actually did, I'd still like to hear about that.

[Cephrir]

vote andrius

Why?

bY 'i WILL POST AFTER WORK' I apparently meant 'I will play cookie clicker alot' sorry. Seeing the word miller drains my will to post.

##Vote: Cephir

Hey dude Ima let you finish but since all of Messiah has been Desperado so far he's pretty obvtown so you should shut the hell up.
Actually I was curious so I iso'd you and tried to guess who you were votng based on how you were cheering for elle and Thor, maybe a pass here and there at other people, and I got way back and saw it was quadz, which I thought was holy shit because I would never have guessed! I was like you put a vote down and forgot about it. That's bad btw.
I don't remember if I still hate quadz actually I haven't seen any of his posts in the last five pages? Its not going anywhere though so eh.

So you're voting me for having a suspicion you believe is incorrect and for still having my vote on quadz because I haven't decided where to put it yet. That's pretty useless.

Spoiler: Cephrir

chesskid and Tierce are probably town; I thought Shadoweh was town but 149 is not so good.

These are the only reads you gave me + Andrius town
Where are the rest?

I feel like I've given out a few more than that? But yes, I have been keeping my reads a bit close to the chest. I've been putting off a Great Reads List because I find them to be kind of annoying and juvenile even though they're a good way to express myself. I'll make another post for this.

I am beginning to believe Shadoweh is indeed town (again), though the softclaiming issue will need to be cleared up at some point before I can be fully comfortable. This is not an invitation to clear it up, of course, just noting.

I think it cleared itself up. Talk to me about Shadoweh.

I don't know whether it has, but I don't care about it right now. I've got them as slightly leaning town at this point. Was stronger after I last mentioned them (sorry for the them but I can't be bothered to check your gender atm) but that vote on me was less than stellar.

Not that I probably have as much experience with her but I'm feeling similarly.

Why did this come up? She currently is post leader #4; what did you expect her to be?

Is she? I wouldn't have guessed, I can hardly remember her doing much of anything useful. This is kinda similar to how I see ffery- "why aren't you obvtown for me yet". I don't really get why she's being townread.

So you're saying you wouldn't? Not that I think this is a gambit even if you're scum.

What? Thor is scum that is a scum miller?

Roles before alignments, remember? So I think it's conceivable. If he had a miller character (I dunno, Joffrey? Jaqen? There are plenty of options) and then rolled scum I imagine his PM would still list him as a miller.

Why do you care what it can accomplish?

When you ask something that accomplishes nothing you are doing nothing to contribute and are either fluff posting or scum. Since it seems like mollie's playstyle involves a decent amount of fluff, I'm going to consider it null.

Why so eager to defend yourself?

You don't let someone off the hook when they provide no reasoning for their suspicion.

Desp, I admire your efforts to put a reasonable case together, but I think you can do much better.

This seems like an awkward way to respond to a case against you.

Wow, this game is just like the last one.

Lot's of filler posts, egos and meta-gashing . Oh what fun day one. Anyway, yay, caught up on 30+ pages in 2.5 days. \o/

Reads list, mostly gut based and leanings at this stage but it's a start to work with.

TOWN
quadz
zednek
amrun
peace
ooba
cephrir
benmage
messiah complex

NULL BLOCK
tierce
tammy
shadoweh
syrana
stupendous

MAFIA
Garruk
nautilius
alfred
ellebereth
kanye
goat
pride
andrius
macmollie
thor

Vote: Garruk Relentless

This list makes no sense whatsoever. And doesn't have a single reason on it even for the guy he's voting. What?

Also if SafetyDance flips scum I am immediately calling for blood and lynching the Nautilius slot for the elleheathen/ellebereth/Ellibereth slip. In fact I am awfully tempted to go there immediately because how the heck do you do that unless Elli is present on your mind due to QT posts. I don't see the first post causing such an impression.

Nacho. You went and drew scum on us?

If it was anyone but Nacho right now I would consider buying into this but I don't think I can accept that he could be scum at the moment.

[Cephrir]

Town
Nautilus- Ignoring the possible SD slip for the time being. It does look like a slip, but a lot of things look like slips and aren't. Not to mention his defense against it was so incoherent it almost makes me think it's a slip less. Nacho has been pretty absurdly town.
elle- I did start somewhere else on this based on the first few posts, but after her back-and-forth with Thor I'm pretty sure she was town. As Thor said, she really seems to believe her arguments even though sometimes they aren't that great.
Tierce- clear town motivation in nearly every post.
P&J- I really liked what they did post, I just wish they'd do more of it.
Amrun- Little reason to think otherwise, see Tierce except not as consistently so.
Andy- Liked his read list, and I always think faking a PR is a towntell.
Alfred- Reads have gone against the grain on some occasions without being ludicrous; level of effort is townie.
Shadoweh- Pings me every so often, but I like his/her tone. P-edit: post above mine is good.
ooba- I've come around on this one, but needs to post more.

NULL
kanye- I don't get the strong townreads, has not done anything that isn't easy to fake
Zdenek- Getting hung up on things I don't care about
Tammy- Isn't really scumhunting
Peacebringer- Contributions are minimal at best but seems like a playstyle; need to see more here
Goat- accomplishing nothing outside of 620. Has spent more time explaining their previous points than making new ones.
Thor- I don't know what to do with this and am going to trust others for the time being. If I saw most players misrep like this I would powerlynch them but people seem to think it's in character.
mollie- Apparently saying a lot, but it must be a lot of not much. upon iso apparently has strong townreads on thor/syr/tammy/kanye. Ick. Needs to explain positions better.
Syryana- Eh. Apparently passionate about lynching me but refuses to give reasons that aren't silly; expected votes to accumulate on me without doing anything to accumulate them.

SCUMMY
quadz- That one post downgraded him from null and he's given me no reason to change this back.
SD- That reads list is just abysmal.
Messiah- I've discussed this.
Benmage- attacked Andy for the PR, Thor for claiming miller, now defending SD as not having slipped. I'd like to see a reads list from him, because these are all things that scum would worry about if they aren't good at faking scumhunting.
Garruk- Asking a lot of useless questions. Currently voting me for no adequately explored reason. Doesn't seem to be scumhunting.
StupendousMan- I've discussed this and so has Messiah. I like the fact that he just went after an obscure target, but he didn't do it all that well, and I'm also aware that slightly off-kilter suspicions are a quick way to get on my good side.

Now that this exercise has gotten me to determine a top suspect, I may as well

UNVOTE: , VOTE: StupendousMan

[Cephrir]

bY 'i WILL POST AFTER WORK' I apparently meant 'I will play cookie clicker alot' sorry. Seeing the word miller drains my will to post.

##Vote: Cephir

Hey dude Ima let you finish but since all of Messiah has been Desperado so far he's pretty obvtown so you should shut the hell up.
Actually I was curious so I iso'd you and tried to guess who you were votng based on how you were cheering for elle and Thor, maybe a pass here and there at other people, and I got way back and saw it was quadz, which I thought was holy shit because I would never have guessed! I was like you put a vote down and forgot about it. That's bad btw.
I don't remember if I still hate quadz actually I haven't seen any of his posts in the last five pages? Its not going anywhere though so eh.

So you're voting me for having a suspicion you believe is incorrect and for still having my vote on quadz because I haven't decided where to put it yet. That's pretty useless.

It's more because you've been voicing suspicions on everyone but quadz afterwards. I find it problematic when I can't guess who a person is voting by reading their continued posts. No idea of your level of suspicions or whether you were thinking of changing your vote before your statement here means it seems like you're purposely staying on the sidelines. I think your suspicion on Messiah looked like you were trying to jump on something that seemed new and easy, giving me deja vu to myself which is bad because I was scum when I had that train of thought. Do you think you were right? Do you want to challenge me with your superior logic? I'd think you were townier if you wanted to fight!

I can see how you might think the first part. I don't know what seemed easy about jumping onto Messiah. As you can see above, they're still on my mind. Also, I'm pretty sure I was just fighting with Thor if you like fighting. I did let him get the last word because I've figured out I'm not going to be able to read him.

[Cephrir]

Shadoweh

: Are you going to marry someone or not?

Please, I'm not a show off. You're not going to see me running around on a honeymoon with some troll.

Cut: I don't think Stupendous has addressed you, do you think he's voting obscure targets just to get on your good side? He doesn't seem well spoken so 'didn't do it well' sounds like 'is bad at mafia'. Looking at your earlier statement on Stupendous (which is hard to find because omfg quote strips) the only one I see is in #842 where you state he reacted awkwardly to MC attacking him. None of these are.. quantative for lack of a better word? What was awkward about his reaction? What was wrong with his case?

I'm ignoring anything to do with Thor as hard as I can, but fighting over role shenanigans doesn't count imo. It's game theory, not mafia talk. As scum I would rather mafia talk for ten pages then have to give an honest opinion on someone, wouldn't you?

I think he could easily be voting for an obscure target not to get on my good side specifically but to look townie by not jumping on any of the available wagons in the name of self preservation

I also mentioned earlier that I agreed with the thrust of Messiah's case on SM.

The case just isn't very persuasive or strong, nor does it look like it could plausibly convince anyone.

[Cephrir]

Zdenek might be a little too off-kilter for my tastes, as well. I feel like a townie should be able to come up with something better than that at this point.

[Cephrir]

Zdenek might be a little too off-kilter for my tastes, as well. I feel like a townie should be able to come up with something better than that at this point.

What have you come up with that you are proud of?

I mean better reasons for a vote. But since you're asking I think it's distinctly possible I'm the only one onto Messiah and/or Benmage at this point.

[Cephrir]

I think he could easily be voting for an obscure target not to get on my good side specifically but to look townie by not jumping on any of the available wagons in the name of self preservation
I also mentioned earlier that I agreed with the thrust of Messiah's case on SM.
The case just isn't very persuasive or strong, nor does it look like it could plausibly convince anyone.

:/ See, I'm not even sure if I like SM myself and you couldn't convince me with this here. Not persuasive or strong still sounds like you're voting him for being bad at mafia. Yet at the same time you're arguing he's craftily doing a voting reach-around by voting someone who isn't popular in order to look townie? He honestly doesn't seem that level-headed.

Nor do I think it's terribly likely he honestly thinks said case is correct. I'd give him enough credit to be doing that to look townie, no one's going to change their mind and start townreading him if he just goes with the flow.

But I'm not incredibly confident and I'm trying that hard to sell anyone on my suspicion. If you had as shitty a scumhunting record as I do you'd feel the same way.

[Cephrir]

Zdenek might be a little too off-kilter for my tastes, as well. I feel like a townie should be able to come up with something better than that at this point.

What have you come up with that you are proud of?

I mean better reasons for a vote. But since you're asking I think it's distinctly possible I'm the only one onto Messiah and/or Benmage at this point.

It looks like you are attacking Benmage for him saying what I think are pretty legitimate things. Care to outline why you think Messiah is scum?

Legitimate things but also logic-based things.

I already discussed why I don't think Messiah's entry post is townie. It's a little thing but it's enough to make me wary. Perhaps more than anyone else I have no idea why they're getting townread.

[Cephrir]

A.) Those few lines make all the difference. For all I know you generated that list using an RNG.

B.) I'm also complaining about its actual contents (scum section including my 3 best townreads and literally only one player I think is scum). If your list is going to be that controversial and scumread a whole bunch of players no one else is you need to explain it.

[Cephrir]

A.) Those few lines make all the difference. For all I know you generated that list using an RNG.

B.) I'm also complaining about its actual contents (scum section including my 3 best townreads and literally only one player I think is scum). If your list is going to be that controversial and scumread a whole bunch of players no one else is you need to explain it.

You disagreeing with it doesn't make it controversial. I really don't get why you should have to have an arbitrary amount in your scums reads. I don't know the number of scum. Do you? Last Faraday game I played had just 4+1. So why do you have 6? Know something we don't?

You're filled with more hubris than the spawn of Thor and Benmage marriage if you think my reads HAVE to align with yours.

I'm curious though, what are your three strong town-reads that I have in my scum pile?

Find me someone else in this game that thinks Nautilus or P&J are scum that isn't predicated on you having scumslipped.

I didn't have a problem with Nautilus' list because A.) it was a not-clearly-town list not a scumlist and B.) Those are all players I can imagine someone scumreading.

[Cephrir]

Also, you didn't address point A.) in 872. I want reasons for some of your reads, at LEAST the guy you're voting for.

Your reads don't have to align with mine, but they have to align with something remotely resembling reality. It looks like you pulled names out of a hat.

[Cephrir]

If you really want to scumread obvtown players you can try to but you can't do it for no reason

[Cephrir]

OH. That makes a lot of sense.

NULL
kanye
Zdenek
Tammy
Peacebringer
Goat
Thor
mollie
Syryana

NULL
kanye

mollie

Zdenek
Tammy
Peacebringer
Goat
Thor
Syryana

[Cephrir]

vote andrius

Why?

[Cephrir]

It's no more pointless than saying "I think post X is townie"

I have now and my opinion has not changed

[Cephrir]

I guess I can understand that. It's a more meaningful shift for me than it would seem to be for anyone looking at the list.

[Cephrir]

Cursory flip through those meta games seem to indicate Benmage could be town but I still hate the direction of his scumhunting thus far.

Also, I didn't notice before that SD's 874 completely missed the point of my 872 (I was complaining about the identities of his scumreads not the number).

[Cephrir]

And for the record, this is a pretty good response to the reasoning for your vote (the only vote on him at the time besides Syryana, and the singular vote with any reasons attached):

I'm confused. What slip? If I'm the one who scumslipped why I am left in the dark over it?

How is "I'm confused" good? Hadn't someone just explained the possible-slip? Even if they hadn't, "good" is quite a stretch.

[Cephrir]

I didn't think it was

that

confusing.

It means that StupendousMan is too concerned about making friends, which he admits is, for him, beneficial for scum.

With Cephrir, the impression I get is that he's buddying up to me.

Travel safe!

Remind me to address this when an ongoing game ends in the very near future. For now, let's just say this is not a strange thing for me to do.

[Cephrir]

{cephrir, zdenek, stupendous, garruk} is our conslidated lynchpool at the moment.

Cephrir - Continually puts down our case on Stupendous yet sheeps it. I don't see any of his own reasoning for Stupendous being his "top suspect," at least. Also reminiscent of his interactions with Elle and Thor during their argument, where he attacked Thor for not engaging with topics of discussion that Cephrir himself later admits aren't any good. Especially given he had already pledged to ignore Thor prior to. He's playing both sides on a lot of issues and it's super scummy.

I did not put down your case. I think it is well-reasoned but also that the way you went about it was scummy. If he flips scum, I will suspect you marginally less. I will have that same argument with Thor every day, you still have to answer accusations that aren't great- and more importantly my issue was that he cherry picked the even worse ones to make her look bad. I don't know what you mean about playing both sides but if you're expecting strong stances out of me on day 1 you're not going to get any.

zdenek - Zdenek's Goat push is really bad:

UNVOTE: StupendousMan, VOTE: Cephrir

Cephrir could have joined kanye in getting the game started. He didn't.

Why are you focussing on Cephir here?

When you consider that Zdenek was one of the people who didn't join Kanye in getting the game started:

Vote: Benmage

Obviously.

I'd also echo Stupendous' 811, and Zdenek's handling of Thor's claim doesn't show much town thought process either.

I don't see the issue with the first point here, but the second is better. It amuses me that you're agreeing with Stupendousman here. I agree with you about him while scumreading you and I'm scum, but you're allowed to agree with his Zdenek case enough to vote on it?

@ macmollie: the safetydance wagon is totally whack, I agree. What're you seeing with Stup? Is it because the wagon's been a little too easy? Because I feel like Nautilus, Cephrir, and Goat all basically just sheeped it and it's making me uneasy. And who are you looking at if not them?

This makes me feel slightly better about you even though it would do the reverse in a void.

[Cephrir]

Desp, you should vote Zdenek with me.

@Tierce- Empire said something polite in the post where he addressed me, so I returned the favor.

@Shadoweh- Who do you think is scum right now? I'm too lazy to look back.

Is it strange that I think this is town as shit?

[Cephrir]

(Yes, yes it is)

[Cephrir]

I'm pretty sure you did but looking back the posts were referring to multiple people so I may have read it wrong. What were you referring to you when you said this?

I also mentioned earlier that I agreed with the thrust of Messiah's case on SM.

The case just isn't very persuasive or strong, nor does it look like it could plausibly convince anyone.

Oh. I was referring to Stup's case on Zdenek.

I'm not really looking for strong stances, just consistent ones. If you thought most of Elle's concerns weren't valid, I don't understand why you thought you had to attack Thor for not answering them. If you think our case is well reasoned, I don't understand why you would go out of your way to undermine it (by scumreading us for the formatting of our notes) and then sheep it later anyway.

Not invalid, just not clear-cut solid points for finding someone scummy. It would've been better in my eyes if Thor had ignored her entirely than only responding to the particularly shitty parts- it was a misrep.

If I'm scumreading someone, I'm not smart or organized enough to not say it and save it for later. If I don't like a post I'm going to say I don't like the post even if that damages an argument I want to make.

[Cephrir]

I don't think Stup is scum anymore. How does this affect your amusement level?

It seems like a sudden heel face turn given that it was just based on the way the wagon built up rather than actual things, but also [redacted].

[Cephrir]

Holy wall wars 2013!

really?

@ Ceph: Are you saying that the composition of a wagon isn't a real thing? You told us that you didn't want to do a list because they're juvenile or some shit, then you did one and it magically popped out a top suspect anyway? Nautilus "resorts" to Stup after telling me he had planned on giving them some room this game, Goat rereads and acquires a scum suspect that they immediately drop the moment someone questions it, and then peace rereads and, lo and behold, he votes stup too. None of these votes made me feel like I was on the right path. Should they have?

- Des

No, I'm not saying that. I just don't worry about it as much as you do and I wouldn't back off a scumread because of it. Bussing happens.

[Cephrir]

I'm not backing off though, I'm turning around and running in the other direction. And you pretty clearly did say that when you said "it was just based on the way the wagon built up rather than actual things."

- Des

"Actual things" as in things based on Stup's posts

If you can;t tell the difference between my use of 'things' in those posts I can't help you

[Cephrir]

Tierce- here's me doing the same thing only way way more in open 527. Yeah, blah blah self meta blah.

Is there some meta I'm not aware of or is 427 as town as it looks

I guess that could be deliberate exaggeration due to TF's commentary but I sure do like this

I am not used to people reading me as town if they haven't played with me before, BUT

BUT you are still taking such a quick stance on me being town after people are scumreading me

the defense feels nice, not gnona lie, it's nice to have my back patted BUT not feeling great about it tbh or you

Cephrir you can't even explain why Im really town. Really? Umm... Something's fishy

And yeah, i agree with Tip and ffery - "I get to play today! Great!" sounds pretty contrived

I've been gut reading you as town ever since you stopped being shodan, i don't think you've said a single thing that didn't sound absurdly genuine.

Okay, if you want, that can be contrived.

Bert

If you want to suspect me that's fine

But I really wish you'd get over the fact that I am townreading you and it's a silly reason to suspect me.

I'm slightly nervous about VS as well, just because one of the members obviously doesn't want to vote me and the other keeps doing it, that seems like potentially fake hydra dis and a fairly easy way to have it. Please don't lynch me before I have time to make a decent post.

Bert- if he's scum I'll eat my detective hat, never had a gut read this strong ever.

[Cephrir]

Cephrir - How often on day one of a large do you do full reads lists?

Based on the larges I've played since returning to the site, always.

My dislike of read lists is a recent development and I haven't figured out how to not do them yet.

[Cephrir]

@Chephir - you keep harping on the cherry pick and now bring up that I did the worst ones first...um...was my response to the 2nd set you demanded that hard? Both you (and her) even admitted the points I hadn't addressed were weak and silly, so...where are you coming from suggesting I avoided the tough ones? Can you support that claim?

Yes, after I bothered you about it. I only keep bringing it up because people keep poking me about it.

[Cephrir]

*sigh*

Problem #1: 3000 fucking scumreads. Scummy by itself? No. Scummy when considered of the context that he's done jack fuck to narrow the list? Hell fuck yes.

Problem #2: Reaction to scumslip. As town, when somebody else goes up to me and says "LOL YOU SCUMSLIPT LOL", the immediate town reaction (in my humble 13er opinion) is some variant of "lolthefuckyousmokintierce".

What did we get? "What? I scumslipped? Where?" *looks for scumslip for 20 minutes* "Oh, you mean that?" *proceeds to overexplain scumslip*

Hmm...

Problem #3: Best reasoning for anybody being in his scumlist is "X is most likely to flip scum." No reason X is scum. No indication of thought process. No indication of scumhunting. Hell, corollary to that, there's no reason anybody in his list is any alignment. The moral of the story: THERE'S NO INDICATION OF THOUGHT PROCESS OR ANY KIND OF ALIGNMENT HUNTING IN HIS READS LIST OR ISO.

Questions?

Pedit: Tierce, I was attempting to troll the fuck out of mollie, and you are all up in me shit. Besides, I don't

need

gallantry, because I got bitches

lining up

to be all in me shit. Just ask Tammy and Shadoweh.

These are all "bad/new at mafia" tells rather than scumtells.

I'm not opposed to him getting lynched on D1 (and would join a lynchwagon on him for that with no qualms), due to him being, in fact, bad/new at mafia. Characterizing his play as scummy, though, is misguided at best.

Bullshit. Like Tierce said, he's not doing anything about it. Just voting one of them seemingly at random, which he still hasn't supplied reasons for even though I've asked him multiple times.

Cephrir - in your reads list, you have me listed as null with the reasoning being that I'm not scum hunting. If I'm not scum hunting, why do you have me as a null read and not a scum read?

-cant quote cuz on phone at work but this just struck me and I didn't want to forget to ask.

You're not doing anything scummy either, you just aren't doing anything at all. That said, it's beginning to annoy me that you don't sound like Cait Sith.

[Cephrir]

Syr-

This game got serious a lot faster than the other one did. I've already established that I believe I'm allowed to agree with people without thinking the argument I'm agreeing with is town.

I don't need to interact with people a ton to get a townread on them. Did you see me interacting with Bert a lot in that game beforehand? Not really, I thought the slot was scum until he switched accounts and then I decided he was mega absurdly town. The only difference is that Nacho isn't surprised by this.

It's kind of a relief to hear you actually have solid reasons, but as Nacho said in that game, I was playing atypically in some regards. I don't expect any of that to convince you though ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

[Cephrir]

Oh good, AGar is (still) town.

[Cephrir]

Cephrir - in your reads list, you have me listed as null with the reasoning being that I'm not scum hunting. If I'm not scum hunting, why do you have me as a null read and not a scum read?

-cant quote cuz on phone at work but this just struck me and I didn't want to forget to ask.

You're not doing anything scummy either, you just aren't doing anything at all. That said, it's beginning to annoy me that you don't sound like Cait Sith.

Ouch. I'm not doing nothing though. It's day one of a large with several loud Wally people, which takes me a little longer and more than one reading to parse through. I'm pretty adaptive and tend to be more observant in these types of situations. I'm not going to add my loud voice for no purpose whatsoever when there are enough button pushers around unless something strikes me. Ill get there, it just might not be today. Besides, I pretty much spent all my mafia energy trying to get you not to lynch me in lylo the past couple days. That's draining, and I need to reset. Besides, as I recall cait sith was annoying the fuck out of you lately, are you sure you're annoyed I don't sound like myself from that game

I want Day 2-3 Cait Sith not LyLo Cait Sith

But yeah, you can have time.

[Cephrir]

That Garruk case sure is taking a while. Trying to figure out how to bus them properly?

[Cephrir]

- Well, it isn't the case of finding Amrun or Safety dance scummy - it's also the lack of a push on anybody else - some pressure of any of the people I find scummy goes a long way in my reads

This is a bad position and you should feel bad for taking it. And if you do honestly believe this, why would you say it?

[Cephrir]

Tierce is pretty town from our view. Wish she and SyrGod would kiss and make up.

Have you actually explained why you've decided to sheep Syryana to the abyss and back?

PnJ's absence is starting to tickle me. I understand life happens, but even before that they completely fell off the map like a week or so ago. I dunno, it's very suspicious for chesskid--he's usually much more active.

It would be, but...real life... just like you just said.... :/

I'm sorry, Despy, but that vote wasn't even my worst vote in the thread.

10/10 defense.

I don't hate an ooba lynch, I guess, but whenever I read his interactions all I can muster the emotion for is a half-hearted shrug.

My vote is rotting on Stupendous anyway.

Unvote, Vote Garruk

[Cephrir]

If StupendousMan is out of the picture (I'm liking him a little better though), SafetyDance is the best wagon, followed by Thor. I will not vote ooba. Still holding out for Garruk though.

[Cephrir]

to deflect any attempts to garner insight into his reads,

How so?

That sure is a better case than I've heard from anyone else though.

[Cephrir]

aggressive refusal to actually look at motivation

....????

Pretty sure that's what scumhunting is and also what I'm doing, sorry if you don't like my style

[Cephrir]

OK

[Cephrir]

cos I am pretty sure that they have been around but are ignoring the game for some reason.

Beetlejuice! Beetlejuice! Beetlejuice!

Kanye these last three pages is pretty crazy town. Sorry I couldn't see that before.

[Cephrir]

I reeeeeeeally don't like Ceph's last post. "sorry I didn't agree with you guyyyys" doesn't seem terribly townish to me.

Was talking to kanye, gtfo.

[Cephrir]

Well, it a good thing

that isn't what I said

, huh?

[Cephrir]

Yes, it is not possible I was addressing those sentences to two different targets.

Go ahead, lynch me for my fucking word choice. Let me know when you're ready to play mafia instead.

[Cephrir]

Kanye these last three pages is pretty crazy town [general statement]. Sorry I couldn't see that before. [read: sorry for suspecting you bro]

Why would I apologize to someone other than an individual for my read on that individual, that doesn't even make sense. I'm aware I had him at null in my read list but that was a move up from even earlier than that.

I'm going to try to explain, partially to myself, why I think ooba is town.

ooba - Why am I a "neutral" read?

You're not - You're a "Neutral-" meaning "leaning scum".

I appreciate this read on Tierce. With a lot of players townreading her (pretty sure you're female, sorry if wrong) "slightly leaning scum" is kind of an interesting tack- why would scum do this? She probably won't be lynched ever, so I don't see how this would benefit him or do anything other than cause an argument- which is exactly what it did.

ooba - Why am I a "neutral" read?

You're not - You're a "Neutral-" meaning "leaning scum".

Missed that. Better yet! Why?

Vibe + Your major pushes in the game have been on Amrun and SafetyDance - both of whom I'm leaning town on and looked like very easy pushes at that time.

Both the nestled post and this post are town- the former for flippancy (which is something I personally like), and his criticism of momentum-oriented pushing (i.e. going for players who are currently being pressured) jives with the rest of his posting (including going after Shadoweh, which I could wish he'd do a bit more vigorously).

I wouldn't say it's the best reason, no,

but looking at the currently running choices you're the one I'd want lynched

.

My question is - Why is that I rate higher over other people on 'want to lynch'?

You're never going to answer me are you? :/ NO ONE EVER ANSWERS ME.

When I read someone, usually a couple of posts jump at me as "town" or "scum"; in your case, every post has rubbed me the wrong way. Actually Pygmalion might not have been the most technically correct term to use there, but basically I meant the case where If "I assume you're scum and then proceed to read posts from you - obviously I'll find them scummy".

"I think all your posts are scummy, but I might be suffering from confirmation bias"- this is not how you drive a mislynch nor do I think it's likely he and Shadoweh are mutually bussing.

@Quadz
- My top scum read jumped on to my wagon because 'oobas flaking' and im trying to figure out if that's it and why he isn't pushing other stronger scum reads?

And this is actually a pretty legitimate reason for suspecting Shadoweh. Sure, he could be screaming about it over and over, but that obviously isn't his style, nor should it be. The fact that that strategy actually works is a flaw with the players who tend to follow it, not with those of us who opt not to pursue it. In the meantime, he's still holding onto quadz while everyone else has dropped it; why bother?

That doesn't add up to "mind-blowingly town" but for me it's enough to say "why are we lynching this?"

I wasn't getting the suspicions at all until AGar laid it out for me, though I can't help wondering whether those who joined the wagon before his post actually had much of a basis. I think he could easily just be a bit slow on the uptake and would certainly expect more out of him in later days, but I don't think we'd be smart lynching here when we could lynch, you know, scum.

Meanwhile I'm trying not to be swayed by Garruk townreading me when they don't have to. It's impossible for me to view that action in an objective light, as a certain game has recently made me realize.

[Cephrir]

Nah, it's not a comma issue. The second sentence is directed to Kanye. The first is not.

[Cephrir]

It was an agreement with a sentiment that had just been expressed by several others, including you, mollie and Garruk.

[Cephrir]

Any stupidity exhibited in my recent posts is entirely unintentional.

[Cephrir]

your blatant bullying is getting old.

The hell are you talking about

[Cephrir]

VOTE: Thor

There are only two wagons, and this one is better.

[Cephrir]

Alfred-

basically I meant the case where If "I assume you're scum and then proceed to read posts from you - obviously I'll find them scummy".

Am I misreading this?

[Cephrir]

The Tierce scumread thing is a fair point but what bothers me about it more than anything is the progression into it. The rationale behind it just feels fake to me and it's pretty much impossible to see how he got from A to B.

This is a fair point. I'm not judging the wagon (yet at least), it is somewhat valid, I just don't buy it. I definitely like some of the votes on it better than others and can admit this flip may be useful.

[Cephrir]

Yes. Yes, they are.

[Cephrir]

Thor: "putting it succinctly" requires something to be "put". His actual vote, sure, it's short. His explanations are in big piles of Thorness, most of which are over this head's personal can-I-be-arsed-to-read-it post length.

Similarly, you've barely said anything about Amrun. What there was, we've ignored, because you are frustrating us.

Are we going a little bit too far here defending what's basically just poor word choice when we should have just said that we didn't ever notice a good Amrun vote or explanation at the times when they were made? Yes. Can we be arsed to backspace? No. It's 1am, we were trying to go to bed way earlier than this. Deal with it.

Ordinarily, we'd be pretty happy for you to see our flip and eat a huge fucking all-you-can-eat humble buffet but we're too excited about playing in this game to be keen on dying just yet. It would actually be less annoying if you were scum, but we don't think you are.

Do you actually have complete hydra synchonicity on all of these things or are you just using the royal we?

I don't disagree that Amrun using v/la as an excuse could be seen as scummy

Oh please, BS. Who else said this?

Oh hey, safety dance still hasn't posted. So, like 60 hours ago he posted to say "catching up from where I last posted" and hasn't posted since.

So those of you defending him for being town, why? Like, okay he responded flippantly, awesome. Oh wait he gets really overwhelmed when he's scum. And he's not posting. What does that tell you?

Also, because I'm impatient and he's probably not going to answer anyway by this point, here is why I'm kinda fixated on his reads list and why he made it and what he thought he was going to achieve. I was hoping that empire would see this since he said he just read The Wire to compare his attitude, but he didn't or maybe just doesn't see that as interesting as I see it. And here is why I was kinda shocked that mollie was happy that he provided a reads list.

here is how town safety dance feels about reads list In this post, he points out several people who have made some types of reads without reasoning and calls it "Weak as Budwieser reads that do nothing to help with anything. List reads (or whatever you call them) are not proper reads or effective scumhunting. So it's not something you're going to see me throw out there."

When I was looking at The Wire the other night to see if there was a similarity in tone, I came across this. Then I read through several of his more recent games, and in not one of them did I find an immediate reads list like this. Can someone rectify for me how a person can call it not proper or effective scumhunting, not do it in town games, then do it here and it makes people happy? I mean I get the arguments against meta as I used to have them, but when someone has a belief like this and then go against it, it makes me go hmmm. Am I insane or what?

This is pretty compelling. Also, tone in this post suggests to me that Tammy may be town.

[Cephrir]

But...then... who were you "not disagreeing" with... ?

[Cephrir]

Thor: "putting it succinctly" requires something to be "put". His actual vote, sure, it's short. His explanations are in big piles of Thorness, most of which are over this head's personal can-I-be-arsed-to-read-it post length.

Welcome to my life.
I do love how apparently in the online forum environment 'reading' is considered a hassle though.

Said the guy who wouldn't read the thread.

Benmage actually seems to be playing worse than Mollie in this game.
That is sad.

Why are you voting Amrun?

Overreactive defensiveness of me to Benmage considering an otherwise sedate playstyle (that she was called on and defended as what she was doing in this game).
Pair that up with getting really annoyed when I asked her about it.

This argument is fairly town.

His votes suck, the ooba wagon is horrible.

I agree that the Ooba wagon is horrible.
So...which counterwagon should I be supporting then? The one on me? The one I openly disagree with on Stupendous? The kinda mushy Messiah one? Or should I start a wagon I like?

Oh, and look, you dislike me for doing that too.

Meh.
Derp tell is derpy.

You don't seem like the type to be this passive. You don't like the ooba wagon and the current counterwagon is you, so you deduce that there's nothing you can do? Try to start a counterwagon. It's clear there isn't a ton of interest in your top choices, so pick someone else. If you pick one of the fairly large number of options I prefer over the you wagon, I may just join you. But curling up and dying doesn't seem like your style. I'm assuming blded refers to your attempt to start a wagon on Amrun. I haven't been paying a ton of attention to your posts but I don't see what's not to like about that.

[Cephrir]

Thor: "putting it succinctly" requires something to be "put". His actual vote, sure, it's short. His explanations are in big piles of Thorness, most of which are over this head's personal can-I-be-arsed-to-read-it post length.

Welcome to my life.
I do love how apparently in the online forum environment 'reading' is considered a hassle though.

Said the guy who wouldn't read the thread.

Benmage actually seems to be playing worse than Mollie in this game.
That is sad.

Why are you voting Amrun?

Overreactive defensiveness of me to Benmage considering an otherwise sedate playstyle (that she was called on and defended as what she was doing in this game).
Pair that up with getting really annoyed when I asked her about it.

This argument is fairly town.

His votes suck, the ooba wagon is horrible.

I agree that the Ooba wagon is horrible.
So...which counterwagon should I be supporting then? The one on me? The one I openly disagree with on Stupendous? The kinda mushy Messiah one? Or should I start a wagon I like?

Oh, and look, you dislike me for doing that too.

Meh.
Derp tell is derpy.

You don't seem like the type to be this passive. You don't like the ooba wagon and the current counterwagon is you, so you deduce that there's nothing you can do? Try to start a counterwagon. It's clear there isn't a ton of interest in your top choices, so pick someone else. If you pick one of the fairly large number of options I prefer over the you wagon, I may just join you. But curling up and dying doesn't seem like your style. I'm assuming blded refers to your attempt to start a wagon on Amrun. I haven't been paying a ton of attention to your posts but I don't see what's not to like about that.

[Cephrir]

Not sure how I feel about one Messiah head presenting a case and the other noping it.

That's just strange either way.

[Cephrir]

I just don't think I've ever seen a hydra behave quite like that before.

Reading them differently and disagreeing with FF's case are the same thing.

[Cephrir]

Not in quite that fashion, no.

I'm not saying it makes you scum, only that it puzzles me.

[Cephrir]

If we can actually do this it's way better than the other two

UNVOTE:
VOTE: SafetyDance

[Cephrir]

Not in quite that fashion, no.

I'm not saying it makes you scum, only that it puzzles me.

In what fashion do you mean?

I've seen "I think X is scum", "No he's totally town".

Not so much "here's a reasonably well thought out case on why X is scum", "No he's totally town". It's kinda like... are you even talking to each other?

[Cephrir]

Hydra trajectory on Garruk:

1) post 637 (clearly a concerted effort) has FF scumreading a ton of Garruk posts. Desp's only note on Garruk is a negative one.
2) post 999 has Garruk in a "consolidated lynch pool" and mentions Desp will leave the case building to FF
3) FF builds case
4) seemingly out of nowhere, Desp doesn't agree with the case, even though to all indications before this post, we would expect the contrary.

It's just bizarre.

[Cephrir]

Let me know when you can see anything whatsoever. Your ego seems to be taking up your entire field of vision.

[Cephrir]

This head was about to express support for Zdenek's Amrun vote but then noticed the thing above about sort-of retroactive V/LA. We'll see what happens when she catches up.

You should probably just vote her.

This is pretty compelling. Also, tone in this post suggests to me that Tammy may be town.

Really? because that case is based on meta from about 2 months after SD joined the site.

Somehow that doesn't really bother me that much... I mean, he obviously hasn't improved much, so why would his opinions have changed?

The slot's scummy even if you ignore that issue though. On Day 1, it's good enough for me (and I don't like the other suggestions).

[Cephrir]

It's not going to be an Amrun vote either, not today and probably not for a few days thereafter.

I could wish she'd actually show up though.

[Cephrir]

Do you have a rolename and flavor, or...?

[Cephrir]

T this is obstinate caught scum.

No it's nihilistic town who really couldn't give a fuck up the brow-beating, meta-wank dick-pissing contests that passes as scumhunting in these games. But I assume that must come with being "awesome".

All I know is people in glass houses shouldn't play mafia

If 1591 isn't a scumclaim, I don't know what is. Holy shit WHY ARE WE LETTING HIM LIVE AFTER THIS?

FTFY.

The amusing thing is you're just going to do this again tomorrow.

I don't need to do this again tomorrow, because you're...

I didn't say anything about you doing it towards me tomorrow. But good job admitting that's all you're doing.

Scum.

So a policy lynch? OK then.

this is obstinate caught scum.

try again plz

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confirmation_bias

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suggestion

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herd_mentality

Scum.

here is how town safety dance feels about reads list In this post, he points out several people who have made some types of reads without reasoning and calls it "Weak as Budwieser reads that do nothing to help with anything. List reads (or whatever you call them) are not proper reads or effective scumhunting. So it's not something you're going to see me throw out there."

So, safetydance. When did you decide that throwing out reads lists wasn't a piece of crap you wouldn't throw out there.

AND and and, when in any game did you think you had to throw out full blown reads on everyone, because I've looked at your games and you don't express that need anywhere.

FYI, 1440 is the poster-child for why meta is completely fucking useless.

I don't understand the logic of applying a standard-defined way of how people will play everything game now matter what, nor how it makes sense that they'll never appear to contradict themselves or play the exact same way, so you'll have to explain that one post-game.

Oh so you were reading along and were just ignoring the game and not playing. Sweet.

And the thing is I asked you a question about it because beliefs held like this tend to be standard. I was trying to understand your mindset and get a handle on your alignment. Instead of answering the question, which you should be able to do but apparently can't, you're acting like a petulant scum child.

So,

H-h-h-h-A-a-a-a-N-n-n-n-G-g-g-g

No. Believe what ever the fuck you want. Santa is your dad though and Christmas is a commercialsed pagan holiday.

Anything I say or do at this stage is just being met with confirmation bias, like I stated. And tomorrow will just be "oh he was playing bad" adbominishment posts so it's not like anyone will change or react differently. So there's no point to me giving reads.

I mean it's people own choice that they choose to focus in on the title of groupings rather than the sentence that prefaces it. People like yourself or Alfred will use meta-reasons to push reasons FOR your case, and just as easily flip-flop based on meta too. Please. All you're doing is setting up Mollie for a big ITYS post.

And fuck off. I don't have to explain activity to anyone in this game bar the mod.

Town.

Look dood, apparently I'm the only person on this page that doesn't hate you, so you should listen to what I'm saying. The part where you're not claiming flavor or what your joat abilities are isn't going to change anyone's minds. Your powers don't get shown when you flip, so even if you're town and you get lynched, we really need to know what you've got. I don't think it looks townie when a person in a no-flips game is trying hard to avoid saying what his role does. :/

I'm dead. Who the fuck else is going to get run up? I'm not self-voting because 1) don't do it and 2) wagon analysis later on is the only positive thing you're going to get out this lynch. I've already explained why my reads are worthless. So flavor, you will get on flip, and abilities don't mean anything once dead. So stop role-fishing.

Sooo getting SafetyDance riled up isn't going to fix anything. Stop trying to push him like that.

Let's say I entertain this claim for a moment. Yes, you do need to claim your character name and your abilities. Partial claims are not going to fly under the pretext of "you're not lynching Thor-miller so you're not lynching me because double standards lol". I want a full claim out of you.

My home internet is down, so phone posting, slow, etc.

Let's say you entertain the idea that people believe it and someone else gets run up. Having 1 PR full-claim today, going into night, with scum now knowing extra flavor-info and all the actions that person can do...that is pro-town and helpful? I dun geddit.

Town.

I'm not sure whether or not I still want to lynch this. I think it's mildly better than Thor still? I'm seriously bothered by the fact that we're getting a big blow-up of posts now that he's about to be lynched after we couldn't pay him to post for like a week. But some of these posts do drip town. I hate that it's the eleventh hour and we can't reasonably do anything aside from these three wagons.

Using the Miller claim as a reason to lynch Thor is literally retarded, and you should all feel bad for doing it, mod meta or no mod meta. Some of the points presented against him are reasonable, but that isn't one of them. I'm still willing to compromise on Thor but I plan on examining those of you pushing this as a policy miller lynch. Doing so is almost too scummy to be scum but, seriously guys, roles came before alignments. If he's a miller, he's either a town miller or a scum miller. So he can't be investiagted by one particular type of investigative role... that *barely fucking matters in a large game*.

[Cephrir]

VOTE: Garruk

[Cephrir]

I'll be around until deadline so at this point you can consider my vote as being functionally on every wagon, although I'm not convinced ooba is better than no lynch.

[Cephrir]

VOTE: Thor

[Cephrir]

I'm not actually sure what I want to do today. I don't recall anything really good on Amrun being scum and I know she's been AWOL everywhere. ooba continues to be town. I could see an argument that 1565 is scummy if SD is town but that isn't nearly enough for me to revoke my read.

SD using the fruit vendor ability given that he's widely suspected is not incriminating in the slightest.

I need to check something.

[Cephrir]

EBWOP: SD using the fruit vendor ability given that he's widely suspected is not exonerating** in the slightest.

[Cephrir]

Agar I literally made a post yesterday about why I thought ooba was town. It's not overwhelming or likely to convince anyone but myself, but there it is.

Still? Thor being town doesn't really change that for me, if anything people were resisting moving off him and onto Thor and kept trying to get the wagon going again. Whereas the SD wagon fled to all corners of the earth to get off him stat.

[Cephrir]

I wanted to look back at who was lynching Thor almost entirely for being a Miller. Turns out that was just Benmage and SafetyDance. It occurs to me that I let someone talk me out of suspecting Benmage yesterday because of like one game of meta. That actually really isn't sufficient and I don't know why I let that sway me. Policy lynching millers on sight is preposterous, it doesn't even matter that much. There are a million and a half other possible cop targets. The whole refusal to be even slightly remorseful today thing rubs me the wrong way, though on the other hand it always does and I'm often wrong on that point. Still, he should still be in my lynchpool and I don't know why I let him escape it.

##Vote: Alfred

I need you to answer one question for me, who are you?

You know, I'd be madder about Thor's wagon because of the miller thing etc, except uhm. Did no one notice that he kind of.. lied about who he was? I'm not a Game of Thrones scolar but that didn't look like the King of the Seals did it? It was still a terrible wagon for other reasons but I don't think over the top posts about how dare a liar get lynched are going to find teh scums.

Amrun are you going to vote all the people voting you because you suck, because that's what your vote looks like and there's a long list if you want to catch them all.

Why did you vote Alfred and

then

ask him a seemingly innocuous question that likely isn't (as evidenced by the vote)?

The middle paragraph...putting aside the misunderstanding, what was your point here? Particularly the last sentence.

And the last paragraph is classic mudsling.

"Vote: Alfred, what's up with X?" is not okay, but "What's up with X? Vote: Alfred" is okay?

Trying to move things along isn't pointless, nor is continuing to not detect the whole sarcasm bit.

For a post that complains about mudslinging, that sure is exactly what you're doing.

I am not as comfy as the rest of you people are with goat people's claim. it could very easily be a fake claim and by all means I don't think he should be allowed to skate. their start of the day post "oh I need to fleeeeeeps" kind of sounded like a bit like reverse cheerleading but not quite. hhhmmm....

who was it that said that displaced did not look scummy was it alfred

sd, syrlacious was kidnapped/silenced/abducted by aliens or something I am leaning probably town

VOTE: garruck

I don't think Goat's information is alignment relevant. Who appears to be letting them skate by on their "claim?"

@ Nautilius: I would expect a scum JOAT to at least pretend to want to hold on to the fruit for a chance to confirm himself as town later in the game. Sending it N1 is like a giant middle finger with an "I'M TOWN, ASSHOLE" banner attached.

- Des

Rather than using it to "confirm himself as town" (which it does not do in any way) early in the game? I don't even understand what could possibly make you think the fruit is alignment indicative at all, never mind so strongly.

Benmage, why are you not in here pontificating about how amazing you are right now owning that massive fuckup of a clear and obvious mislynch?

That lynch was a clear success. Get better.

This is what I was referring to above. You're allowed to be smarmy and even go for the "he deserved it" angle but this is really excessive.

Elle is still on our suspect lists, but, truthfully, Elle jumped into that whole Thor/Benmage/whatever mess and I lost track(if you missed the implications yesterday that we weren't really reading their posts, at the very least I wasn't). We did briefly talk about her in our discussion, but it was just a little blip(we actually went down the whole player list, but didn't have much to say for most) and I figured our stance was already established.

In a word, you can call our read on her decayed. I still find the wight slip suspect, but have decided to shelve it until further evidence exists. On a tangential note, I do like Elle's entrance today.

As a side-note, were going to be a bit more active today hopefully. The whole Thor/Benmage/macmollie thing yesterday got me in a slump and both heads here agreed to lurk it out. At this exact moment, I'm doing what I do best--parsing flavor and setup info. I skipped the miller conversation yesterday because I thought Thor was town and I attribute Faraday enough skill to try to WIFOM his setups, but now I have actual puzzle pieces to work with(and will have one more important one after the lynch).

A curious note: you phrased that post oddly, ooba...hmm...I need to relook at this game with a blank slate.

This entire post is garbage. You're still scumreading elle even though you haven't read, you know, 60% of her posts? Because that makes sense. Are you really going on about the wight bullshit still? It's not basically-RVS anymore. Last sentence here is awkward as hell, and this is coming from the king of awkward phrasing.

And yes the flashwagon against us yesterday was largely unsubstantiated, but we've already addressed that yesterday.

Just because the reasons don't come along with the vote doesn't mean they don't exist. Did you think we were voting you for fun?

[Cephrir]

I am becoming increasingly paranoid about P&J. They just don't look like town Chesskid to me.

[Cephrir]

I am becoming increasingly paranoid about P&J. They just don't look like town Chesskid to me.

Like how? I've only ever seen scum!Chesskid, so I wouldn't known town him if he smacked me, but ActionDan not doing anything is pretty worrying.

I expect more proactivity.

Really? I don't think I've ever seen Dan do a single thing.

[Cephrir]

I don't think scum, would need to hide in the millerscum identity... town millers take care of themselves.

The hell are you talking about? The miller didn't take care of itself, you took care of it by being either scum or a raging idiot. Keep congratulating yourself though, that looks really town.

I don't like Goat's vote on elle because she definitely thought Thor was scum the whole time and her persistence was very town.

Disagree.

I don't think there's anything you're going to be able to say that will convince me of this.

The only question at this point is which of these two I should vote for.

[Cephrir]

@quadz: What I meant by "the reasons don't come along with the vote" was "the reasons have been given elsewhere".

[Cephrir]

Your Nautilus votes are bad and you should feel bad.

Goat People are starting to look like they're at least trying.

Mollie, do you always flipflop so much? Your willingness to vote for or work with Goat has been all over the map.

VOTE: Messiah

[Cephrir]

Who's stopping a wagon? I'm just one opinion, I don't have the power to stop a wagon.

[Cephrir]

He is town as heck though. Not sure why this isn't obvious.

[Cephrir]

[Cephrir]

Because I wasn't just sheeping you

[Cephrir]

Personally I appreciate humongous note dumps. Just make it better than Messiah's if you're going to do that.

[Cephrir]

Quote stripes are fine, I don't mind them tbh

[Cephrir]

Honestly with SD under so much fire yesterday I think tracking someone was just strictly correct and should have happened regardless of anything

[Cephrir]

Let her post the damn content and then judge. Sheesh.

[Cephrir]

^^^ Lynch that tomorrow. Hearts in the right place though.

What on earth do you mean? Is he scum or isn't he? (Hint: Probably not)

[Cephrir]

Vote: SpyreX

I guess I don't have a vote today but the point remains

[Cephrir]

My lack of vote is my own doing. It's a one time thing.

I was not aware this guy has a penchant for quickhammers. Discuss?

Also, I'm a willing learner. This comment is deliberately opaque.

[Cephrir]

VOTE: Garruk

This is probably a better vote actually, I've wanted to lynch this the whole game

[Cephrir]

i think i want to lynch zed. all game it feels like he has been grasping at things that could potentially be "scum tells" for the sake of hitting on them but making zero attempt at discerning intent behind things. i dont feel like any of this displayed thought processes are genuine or town in nature at all.

I can kinda see this. He hasn't felt as present and aggressive as he did in my past experience with him. It's certainly better than the AGar wagon and probably the SpyreX wagon as well. Messiah and Garruk remain the best votes from my perspective though. It's worth noting that I don't especially buy Tierce (I think)'s argument for "if he was scum Garruk wouldn't have done XYZ things with regards to his softclaim dealio" 'cause that argument is both crappy and opaque as fuck so I can't actually judge it on its merits if it has any.

[Cephrir]

Oh, and the zero vote Benmage wagon is still great too.

[Cephrir]

Benmage
Cephrir
Garruk Relentless
Messiah Complex
quadz08
Shadoweh
Tammy
Tierce

Tierce is town.
Shadoweh is town.
Messiah

feels

very, very town but I need to finish a reread to be sure.

AHEM.

This.

If you're doubting me Nacho we're going to need to have words and they will be words about you being scum.

[Cephrir]

Nacho has only ever read me incorrectly when he was scum

[Cephrir]

Psh. My opinion doesn't carry any weight. I'm not capable of cowing anything. I'm one guy in a game full of better players than himself. I don't make threats. That doesn't even mean anything to me.

I didn't say he always reads everyone correctly. I said he always reads me correctly. I am transparently easy to read on a meta basis, and Nacho is 100% effective at doing so. If you're looking for me to recant a binary read on him based almost entirely on this prepare to be disappointed.

[Cephrir]

quadz: Context and history are things, but whatever.

ooba: I will link it when it ends.

[Cephrir]

Even more important, in a game where the role has nothing to do with the alignment, why were you pushing for a

claim

?

Information roles exist...

[Cephrir]

It's a nulltell but SpyreX could still totally be (and probably is) scum. I don't mind riding stupid hammer rage to kill a hard to lynch SpyreX-scum.

Wow this is awful. Can you explain HOW spyrex totally could be and probably still is scum? You haven't actually presented anything saying why you think Spy is scummy except "he wouldn't have hammered in such a boring way." (So far as I can see, if I'm missing something, please point it out.) Even your gigantic post is full of nothing but townreads, with a bit tacked at the end that says "I'd lynch these three dudes but I ain't tellin' you why."

That said, your gigantic set of posts was a decent start when taken out of the no-case-on-spyrex context, so I'm somewhat of two minds on it.

Early game townhunting only is very much a thing, and if you don't see scumhunting in there you may need your head examined. Not having a clear opinion on that spate of Naut posts is strange.

Nautcho, if I was third party you would know, I'd have already gotten myself lynched in a blaze of paranoid glory. You made all those sexy paragraphs around everyone else but all I get is a discount scum rating :<

I don't know why Naut thinks you're third party but this argument only makes me suspect he's correct. Tossing "paranoid" in here is a particularly strange thing to do seeing as paranoia is a thing that townies do. Are you really saying you're more paranoid in third party roles than town roles? If so, why?

This is appalling. What's the problem with Townhunting? And what's your problem with Nautilius's handling of SpyreX when YOU were pushing SpyreX as well?

There is no problem with Townhunting; the problem is with the complete lack of scumhunting (and the scumreads were not presented as PoE either). And what, because he's voting for Spyrex, he's automatically immune from suspicion from me? That's ridiculous, but it's the only way I can parse your second sentence, so if you meant something else, please clarify.

"complete lack of scum hunting" + "gave scumreads" = does not compute. If you want expanded reasoning, you could try asking for it instead of whatever the hell this is.

Those Naut posts are a huge relief to me. And not just because the posturing re: me was revoked (he'd probably do that as scum too, though the emphatic-ness with which it was done I do like, since Nacho is fully aware I'm generally not a hard mislynch), the body of work is nice and possibly more effort/towniness than I've seen him put in at once like ever. Will probably discuss said posts in another post, unless I don't feel like it.

[Cephrir]

Because they are so awesomely town. I guess I could understand if you were paranoiaing and thought the whole thing was a really well thought out facade, though I would think you were wrong. I just don't see how anyone's initial reaction to what just happened could possibly be "meh, those sure are some posts".

ooba - I feel in my heart that ooba is town and I'm going to have a hell of a time letting go with it even if I go down this list and I find three more townreads.

Agar's post makes some valid sounding points.

I think scum is less likely to acknowledge the case on them as "valid", especially when they have a perfectly good rebuttal.
I thought his peacebringer case was fucking great.
His idea of why SpyreX hammered is good.

I did not like how D2 ended abruptly. I wanted to take a more active role today in seeing who I want to get lynched lynched. That involves pushing cases on those I want lynched and dissuading people from other votes. If I had thought Agar's L-1 was scummy - I would have mentioned it.

this seemed awesomely genuine

I'm sorry but that's not how the game works - I will use game events and quotes as I see fit. As someone who does not have great rhetoric, if Nautilus has eloquently put why Andruis's early play was a town tell - I will use it.

this reminds me of a cephrir town tell
i'm not sure if it applies to ooba ofc but if he was cephrir i would call this shit town

- A lot of people called Benmage town because of meta reasons. And his play neither had town nor scum vibes for me. And there were times when I thought "Those many people can't be wrong. Weak town pile?". Every single time I came close to doing that, it didn't feel right so kept him in neutral.

also genuine and town as fuck

Ooba has been generally passive, reactive and mostly concerned with his image rather than finding scum. In his first real post, he has two scum reads - quadz and kanye. He votes for one, but he makes no effort to gain traction on either wagon. A pro-town mindset would have him trying to lobby for more votes on those wagons to garner reactions, generate pressure and help divulge more from which he can gather reads from. He has repeatedly made posts which appear to deflect any attempts to garner insight into his reads, which from a town perspective makes no sense, because again - it does nothing to help gather people to your case, and thus, he once again appears to not actually care whether his wagons gain any ground, just that he has a vote cast somewhere. He's trying to make it appear as if he's involved in this game without actually being involved. He's since moved his vote to Shadoweh, who is his new main suspect, but once again done nothing to actually see if that's a viable wagon.

^this case sucks because it completely disregards the subtle ooba hints where he believes his rhetoric isn't entirely up to par^
it also sucks because ooba has made an effort to push wagons and constantly tries to sell them even if he doesn't exaggerate with how awesome they are.

quadz's case is similar and around it there is mostly cheerleading and a horrible lack of good points.
i've come close to being tempted to take ooba out of my townreads, but after that mtgs fiasco and ooba still being town as shit i'm going double down because ooba is still quite town

This is a particularly good example of a post that is town as all hell. I cannot imagine wanting to lynch this post, from any player, ever.

Goat on a Raft:
Goat drove me crazy until something like #753 when my blind rage against him started to see the possibility of him being town. I usually can't read CDB worth a shit unless people are pushing him decently as scum, and I feel his reactions here are confident and something that's pretty unlikely from his scumgame (although on the outside edges of possibility). His claim is a hard thing to lie about (especially with Shadoweh/Syryana/Alchemist possible third party) and can lead to him getting powerlynched to shit in a lot of scenarios. I think his early reads to form strong trust townreads (nacho, what's your read on mollie? sheeping your read on Tierce.) was a good move in a subtle way, his push towards deathrage is genuine as hell, etc. Probably definitely town.

I would appreciate some expansion here, I think. What's so great about 753? I'm biased on this one, but whoever said scum couldn't be confident? Especially given you just said you aren't great at reading them. I'm sure the claim is true, but I don't see why I should care- scum would want town to know a third party exists in all probability. I don't know what "deathrage" you're referring to. And what's left after that doesn't seem like enough for a townread to me.

I won't bother arguing Messiah right now, I'm willing to table them. Most of the possibly scum list is acceptable. Though it seems like a couple players didn't get mentioned at all?

[Cephrir]

VOTE: The Alchemist

Start playing, please.

[Cephrir]

Before I read on this I just want to talk about how this bothers me. He thinks mollie was killed because she was starting to coordinate the townblock and yet makes no effort to coordinate one himself?

I don't want to die

Bullshit.

Also, you don't want me in your townblock because you and I are disagreeing, but you do want Stupendous, who couldn't scumhunt his way out of a paper bag? For real?

All those reasons the hammer was awful still don't matter because they wouldn't stop someone trolling for hammers. It's still impossible for a town-Spy to have known he was hammering town, so it's not a fair point to hold against someone.

You have got to be fucking kidding me.

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=56&t=29483

Reckoner quickhammers TWICE, gets away with it, endgames town in LYLO (A+ fakeclaim) for the W

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=23&t=30429

I quickhammer the unclaimed town BG, teammates endgame town in LYLO for the W

The bottom line is that Spyrex's hammer is

teeming

with scum motivation, and the fact that your counterargument is literally "Town still trollhammer so it's null, try harder!" is totally and completely asinine. We're lynching Spyrex today, end of story.

- Des

Yes, there is scum motivation. Town do still do it, though. I'm sure I could easily produce examples of this too if I felt like it. It's not enough to lynch on. I understand there are unrelated suspicions on the slot, and that's legitimate. It's ironic that you won't brook any counterargument for lynching SpyreX when, you know, you're lynching him for lynching someone without waiting for a counterargument. And frankly I find the "here's two examples of deliberate scum quickhammers so that must be what's happeneing here" logic disingenuous.

[Cephrir]

Also, you don't want me in your townblock because you and I are disagreeing, but you do want Stupendous, who couldn't scumhunt his way out of a paper bag? For real?

I don't understand what this is. What do you think a townblock is and what was going through your head when you asked me these questions?

Also it sounds like you're saying Stup can't be town because he can't scumhunt, but that would be ridiculous. So what were you actually trying to say?

What's the point of a townblock if not to work together to figure out who the scum are? Can one not call someone town without including them in such a group? I guess I could be wrong here.

On first read your original post sounded like it was calling me town but on a different wavelength, though I suppose given your past posts this probably isn't what you meant.

Yes, there is scum motivation. Town do still do it, though. I'm sure I could easily produce examples of this too if I felt like it. It's not enough to lynch on. I understand there are unrelated suspicions on the slot, and that's legitimate.

It's ironic that you won't brook any counterargument for lynching SpyreX when, you know, you're lynching him for lynching someone without waiting for a counterargument.

And frankly I find the "here's two examples of deliberate scum quickhammers so that must be what's happeneing here" logic disingenuous.

That isn't what irony is and the two situations aren't even remotely comparable.

And what I presented isn't "logic," it's evidence--that scum can and will take opportunities to quickhammer if it benefits them, especially if they think they can talk their way out of it on the other side (which Spyrex clearly does). And given the limited information Spy has provided, the quickhammer

only

benefitted him as scum.

The situations are very comparable, even if "counterargument" wasn't incredibly good word choice on my part. The no-matter-what attitude precludes claims.

No shit. I could provide evidence via two examples for a lot of things that could easily not apply to this game.

I'm going to reiterate that:

the quickhammer

only

benefitted him if he got a scum role PM.

If he really was town whose power hinges on his having the (or multiple) hammer(s), he could have just...waited. And hammered later. But he didn't. Because he's scum.

- Des

You're right, it is literally impossible that town would do this.

Oh wait no town quickhammer all the time.

Not everyone acts in a way that benefits them all the time. Actors are not perfectly rational. This argument is fucking terrible. And there are decent arguments for the same thing floating around but you're still latching on to the one easy, really salient point. Color me unimpressed.

[Cephrir]

Alignment were randomised, so whether your character is The Great Other, or Ned Stark you have the same chance of drawing any anti town role. A large part of the design process was done before alignments were even considered (So roles came first, then the alignments), so bear that in mind, too. That is not to say certain changes may not have been made afterwards.

People really need to get this through their heads.

[Cephrir]

I see what you're talking about wrt 2253 but it sounds fakable and reminds me of something pertaining to an ongoing game.

[Cephrir]

I have been prodded. I still don't care for the major wagons, not that I have a vote.

[Cephrir]

So messiah, have you actually made an argument yet that doesn't boil down to "because I said so"? Seeing as you basically admit to having no argument in 2523.

[Cephrir]

Yes it's bc I'm on a phone right now, I'll deal with you later

[Cephrir]

No time to go in depth but the zdenek wagon is the best of the three options. Mostly because the other two feel like mistakes. And I'm still not really even sure why agar is being wagon need, I don't think his vote was scummy at all and I didn't catch on to the apparent thisisnotareallynchwagon vibe that he apparently missed. Could see myself making the same vote there if I was actually scum reading Marin which, ya know, he was.

[Cephrir]

Wagonned*, amrun*

Damn phones

[Cephrir]

Because I don't have a vote today

[Cephrir]

fake vote:zdenek

Actual commentary when I get back to my compy

[Cephrir]

I don't give a fuck if you have a history of quickhammering. Why? Because you have a history of quickhammering for situations precisely like this one--so you can pretend like you've defeated my argument by telling me you've done this before as town so LOL TRY AGAIN!!!!

Your argument here hinges on "SpyreX spent 4+ years quickhammering just so he could troll one game in 2013."

You do realize that, right?

I only made that point in response to Spyrex's gross attempt to defeat my argument by self-metaing. In any case, it wasn't specific to this game--Spyrex quickhammers as town so that he can quickhammer as scum and get away with it. Unless there's a hidden benefit to derpass troll hammers that I'm missing?

Your argument until recently has been "quickhammer = scum" as far as I'm concerned. When you admit here that he does it as town as well, that's admitting you've been vehemently arguing something for five pages or however long that was blatantly, objectively false and this was pointed out to you a multitude of times. Yeah, I know you're now saying it was the reason he gave, but I don't believe that's what you were arguing before. There is nothing gross about self-metaing for a literal objective fact. Is his excuse for the hammer scummy, maybe, sure.

So messiah, have you actually made an argument yet that doesn't boil down to "because I said so"? Seeing as you basically admit to having no argument in 2523.

Incredible misrep. Is there a reason you didn't quote my 2523 so that everyone would have been able to see it for themselves?

My argument has been clear from the beginning--Spyrex's hammer is oozing in scum motivation and doesn't make any sense from a town-Spyrex perspective given what he's said about his role and hammers. He could have accomplished the same thing (hammering someone) while also waiting for Amrun to provide content and he didn't. The protown move was right there in front of him and he went another way.

No one has satisfactorily argued against this and told me why townSpyrex who needs to hammer people to get his ability going handled the situation the way he did.

- Des

This might be the first time I have ever been called scum for not quoting something. A+ job. Your argument has not been clear from the beginning, obviously, or myself and several others would not have been having this argument with you. The "given what he's said..." is an addendum I really don't think was in your argument at the beginning. I'll fact check myself here after I make this post. The attempt to mudsling at me here is pretty lame either way though, and there was quite plainly nothing clear going on.

I only made that point in response to Spyrex's gross attempt to defeat my argument by self-metaing. In any case, it wasn't specific to this game--Spyrex quickhammers as town so that he can quickhammer as scum and get away with it. Unless there's a hidden benefit to derpass troll hammers that I'm missing?

I'll help you out then. Cephrir's thinks this is me "basically admitting" I have no argument. He says this in reference to my read on Spyrex as a whole, then AGar was clearly critiquing a remote portion of the case that only appeared because Spyrex tried to self-meta his way out of my accusations.

I look forward to your thoughts on why townSpy did what he did how he did it.

- Des

A "remote portion"? Don't make me laugh. If you've said anything else on the subject I don't remember it.

No, Elleheathen is still probably town.

Why? I really am interested in seeing if you see what I see as missing from her town game.

Me too.
Since he's answered, what is it you see that's missing from my town game

that isn't in my scum game

?

*passes through with a Spyrex For Scum picket sign*

Hey, this isn't doing jack shit for anyone. If you actually want to help me get him lynched you should start putting in the same kind of time you did pussy footing around with Thor D1.

Yeah, I hear ya.

But do you actually think my 'pussy footing around with Thor D1' did 'jack shit for anyone' either, when a good portion of the group here admitted to not only ignoring what was in it but not even reading it? A theme that seemed to be carried into Day 2 since most of my questions went unanswered and my arguments about Zdenek and kanye ignored.

So yeah, admittedly - I've become disengaged.

So why is it more questionable that despite the fact that I've already said

why

I feel like he should be lynched and

why

I'm on the wagon than those that haven't?

You seem to dislike my comment on the procrastination going on in reference to all those that haven't taken a stand and are just sitting back prod dodging as time ticks by so that we're put into yet another loldeadline situation. We have 4 people that aren't even voting and another 4 on solo votes - a good majority of those that aren't doing crap all. Yet

I'm

the one not helping you?

Welp. It is what is it, then.

Genuine.

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... er_sort=Go
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... er_sort=Go
this is what I leave for you all wrt stupendous

The main difference I see here (remember, I can't meta worth shit) is that he tunnels less and pursues his suspects more as town, while being open to changing his vote. Some of that is happening here and some of it isn't.

{SpyreX, Zdenek, The Alchemist, AGar, Goat on a Raft, Garruk Relentless}

this is pretty much my kill group in order

I only have three objections: AGar, lack of Messiah, and the order.

oh also i still believe in my spyrex vote

and i think you should too.

Tammy, do you think scum-SpyreX comes in and says "I would do it all over again even if I had read every post?" re: his hammer?

Yes. I think town-SpyreX would do it too. *shrug*

Your argument here hinges on "SpyreX spent 4+ years quickhammering just so he could troll one game in 2013."

You do realize that, right?

If you do something as town, you can do it as scum.

Not my point. My point was that the accusation was that Spy spent all of his time quickhammering so he could do it in one game and point to his past meta to go "Ha! I'm town!" First, it's been said he does it alignment null a few times I believe. And second, I've said above about how I feel about that kind of accusation.

I know I'm a bad lynch. I really feel like SpyreX is a bad lynch. But today is not going to end in any other lynch. Let's be realistic here. The end of D2 was way too polarizing for most of the players in this game. No one wants to budge on those. Clearly if push comes to shove, I'm voting SpyreX, and he's voting me. The town needs to come to a consensus on one or the other and just lynch it and progress, because we're literally getting absolutely nowhere in this game right now. Half the town is lurking, and part of that is because we're beating a dead horse. A group feels I'm scummy for putting Amrun at L-1 to bait a quicklynch. Another group feels SpyreX is scummy for quickhammering. There's a handful of people who feel both of us are scummy. This is literally all today has given us, and all that it is going to give us.

In the meantime...

Zdenek is scum.

He was someone I literally couldn't get a handle on the first two days, and upon rereading, it's because there's nothing to really "get a handle on." He pops in, drops some pithy one liners, regurgitates the general groupthink, then leaves. He's riding the ebbs and flows, taking advantage of what goes along in the game to keep himself from completely being readless, but he's just latching onto the biggest opportunity presented to himself and riding the coattails. Generally weak votes all around, no real drive behind them. If you can be pithy, you can use rhetoric in your favor.

This is possibly the first time I've gotten bad vibes from you. You spend the beginning of this post getting downtrodden and preparing to vote Spyre in the name of self-preservation, then proceed to make something of a case on a wagon that is actually not unviable. Seems to me like a good way to make sure said wagon gains traction, which it has. The formatting of your transition makes it out like you're saying something really momentous, and you sort of are, but that feeling doesn't jive with the woe-is-me of the first part. On the other hand, I basically agree with said case. Now that I can talk about it, this Zdenek doesn't feel to me like he did in NY 165 (in which I was scum, called him obvtown because I believed it was true, and nightkilled him for that reason. He was a lot more passionate and aggressive there IMO).

Curiosity SpyreX: You want me dead for the L-1 vote or for general play? Trying to get a gauge on who's actually, y'know, pursuing a case, and who's afraid to take on a POWERFUL WIZARD so taking the copout vote.

Not for the L-1. Aint nothing wrong with that. I really didn't like Andrius and I really didn't like your early play. I will admit, and maybe its because you're rubbing my ego's belly and making it purr, I'm starting to get hesitation because defending me when people are clamoring for blood doesn't make a lick of sense scumwise.

I don't think AGar is scum but I don't agree with this.

I don't give a fuck if you have a history of quickhammering. Why? Because you have a history of quickhammering for situations precisely like this one--so you can pretend like you've defeated my argument by telling me you've done this before as town so LOL TRY AGAIN!!!!

No.

The fact that it even crossed your mind to offer this sort of deal when you (presumably) don't know my alignment is scummy as fuck. With that said, if you were to miraculously flip town, I would do the same thing I do every other time I lead a mislynch--forget about it and get back to finding scum.

- Des

On some level I'm not surprised. So, the exit strategy is flailing about and after all the spittle is done, just pretending it didn't happen. Gotcha.

I'm not saying I'm town because lol meta. I'm saying that when your argument is ONLY SCUM WOULD EVER DO THIS THING and you're patently wrong and easily proved such, what are you going to do? You that committed to your nonsense that'd you take a rope for it? Nah, course not, cause that would be a hard stance and better get back to finding scum.

However today is not the time to waste on an ostrich, that can come later.

1. Yes, so it would seem.
2. Looks like I was right about what I thought Messiah was saying earlier and he really is full of shit. SHocker!
3. Even if it's a scum ostrich? =/

Zednek is a horrible lynch. I don't have have the same level of confidence with AGar but he shouldn't be today's lynch too.

I actually like Messiah's recent play.

TheAlchemist really needs to start playing soon. Also what does "Glass Towers" mean in the below line?

I will underline this so it doesn't get lost:

He's talking about other wagons while voting the "lead" wagon. He's not even pretending to try and push through his vote.

If Zdenek is scum, lynch ooba.

He's talking about the other wagons to call them bad. Because he wants his wagon to go through. You're gonna have to lay out for me what's wrong with that.

Because I don't have a vote today

sadday.

hey elle. can u pls point out to me your argumetns about me which were ignored which helped lead to you becoming disengaged?

Yeah, sure. The ones about you that I could remember/find:

hello, all. i want to lynch garuck and terice and also maybe amrun a little someonje whos good @ finding scum and also town pls tell me what 2 do ty

Why Garruk?

Serious question for people: Is kayneknowsbest's active lurking not scummy to anyone? We've been beating up on lurkers, Amrun, displaced/Spyrex before he's posted (?) but kayne is getting some serious ignore time here. I know he posts small alot but in Mafiastuck he was really active like he was at the beginning and never stopped. Kayne can you please stop it and go back to Day 1 when you were pushing your reads? What do you think about Zdenek ignoring you today?

Don't know what to think about kanye.

A ton of people seem to have town reads on him based on his meta, which I'm hesitant to doubt because I was wrong with Thor in that situation.
His posting style seems scummy to me, as does his ignoring of questions, though both have been stated to be 'kanye normal' regardless of alignment.
I don't know about the active lurking but I've had him in my 'could be scum' sights since he left the Thor wagon with only twelve hours to go to start a new wagon on Garruk without even so much as a read. Maybe it's that there isn't much transition from his post in 1664 where he seems fine with both the Thor and SD wagons but... bad feels.
But then, he doesn't actually explain anything and hasn't answered my question on 'Why Garruk' yet - and that's apparently normal(?) so idk.

It's not much, especially apart from everything as a whole. But altogether it makes the effort feel wasted. /shrug

also i notice that you seem to think zed is scum. why havent you made any comments about him at all today outside of trying to cheerlead agar into placing his vote? are you willing to switch your vote over to zed at this point?

My read on him hasn't changed since my post 1891. I still think those things are scummy and that he could be scum - but I also don't see much point in repeating it.

My vote will stay on Spyrex - because I think he's scum and needs to die.

However, if the incoming loldeadline takes Spy off the table and means it's a choice between Zdenek and someone else, then yes, I would vote Zdenek. Or you.

Elle: Best way to become engaged with the game: Scream at people. If you don't want to cure your disengagement well..

Trying to get back into it - but I suck at screaming at ppl. I'll work on it... lol <3

Meanwhile, this post makes me wonder if maybe the sudden naysayers wrt elle have a point.

were doin it man
were makin it hapen

Zdenek posts: 0
Elle: Best way to become engaged with the game: Scream at people. If you don't want to cure your disengagement well..

I hate that screaming actually works =(

{SpyreX, Zdenek, The Alchemist, AGar, Goat on a Raft, Garruk Relentless}

this is pretty much my kill group in order

You're inside my head. The only name on this list whose death I would oppose is AGar. And maybe Alchemist, but that's mostly curiosity.

How did Goat end up on this list though?

We agree about something? Eugh. Remind me to rethink all these reads if Messiah ever flips scum...

@ Ooba: Too scummy to be scum? Nah. That's exactly the kind of person who should be today's lynch if we mistakenly let Spyrex escape this. Your other points on Spy are good though, because I feel like other players are consistently misinterpreting what we are saying. Even Spy in 2574 is still pushing the erroneous "You think this hammer could ONLY come from scum" when our argument is much more nuanced than that--this

particular

hammer can only come from scum because town-Spyrex whose role requires him to hammer people in order to access his ability had several, infinitely more protown options available to him in that situation and he said "fuck that, let's give the town the least amount of information possible."

You weren't saying that before, and maybe the fact that literally everyone thinks you were saying this indicates that maybe, just maybe, you were saying it? You sure do get "misinterpreted" a lot.

[Cephrir]

VOTE: Benmage

This day feels all wrong. I no longer like any of the wagons. I want to go in a totally opposite direction.

I want a lynch like on the 2nd day of the Balto invitational, to go to a place where no one particularly looks or scrutinizes. I don't remember Benmage playing particularly towny. I'm just reminded of the wire.

Who made this post?

[Cephrir]

I only have three objections: AGar, lack of Messiah, and the order.

You're not gonna be able to convince me on Messiah quite yet.
But orders, AGar, I'm all ears.

My list is something like {Alchemist/Messiah/Garruk, Zdenek, Goat, SpyreX}

Who made this post?

ActionDan.

I guess I knew that already, I just wanted to hear it from them. What I was really saying was "this had damn well better not be a chesskid post".

[Cephrir]

fake vote: alchemist

I support this product and or service

[Cephrir]

I'd just like to confirm for anyone wondering, yes, the rules do say there are no jesters.

[Cephrir]

I don't care who The Alchemist is or isn't. It needs to play mafia or die. Possibly both.

[Cephrir]

Elle is the scum on spyrex wagon. View the mutual bus by both of them. Elle never really pushed the spyrex case (anyone remember Thor on D1). Apparently disheartened but just a weak bus. Also she would vote Zednek if it came down to loldeadline but SpyreX also voting zednek never affected her.

This is possible, but you're getting ahead of yourself.

But I don't think it means one of those killing roles is scum.

I am prepared to be unsurprised when there is no coin.

Roles! Alignments! Geeerrreuuugh

[Cephrir]

But I don't think it means one of those killing roles is scum.

I am prepared to be unsurprised when there is no coin.

Roles! Alignments! Geeerrreuuugh

It's not the role itself that makes her scummy. It's that she's claimed something clearly designed to be a "keep me aliiiiiiive" switch. It is testable, yes, but it's a 1-shot ability. What if she was "roleblocked" tomorrow? We keep her alive another day?

I don't think you are quite picking up what I'm putting down here. There will be a coin. No one is going to lie about their role except maybe in small unprovable ways, because it's stupid.

[Cephrir]

VOTE: SpyreX

[Cephrir]

Thus concludes possibly the worst gambit in mafia history, having resolved roughly nothing.

[Cephrir]

That's a point. I was kinda sad about the timing of the mod post, not that I actually expected that to work.

[Cephrir]

Vote: SpyreX

I guess I don't have a vote today but the point remains

can u explain the reasoning behind why you made this vote when u did (ignoring the fact that it was only a fake vote)

On daybreak my thought was that Spyre should be policy lynched. I was kinda mad 'cause I didn't want to lynch Amrun in the first place. Cooler heads prevailed, though said heads were not correct.

[Cephrir]

Better. At least you're talking his language. Could do with more skulls for the skull throne and taunting about boring ass vanilla cats, but it'll do, I guess.

There never will be enough taunting about boring ass vanilla cats. Never.

But I did get to catch up and so it begins:

THESE PEOPLE

:
Alfred Borden
Goat on a Raft
kanyeknowsbest
Nautilius
Prideandjoy
SafetyDance

NEED TO KILL THESE PEOPLE:

AGar
elleheathen
ooba
StupendousMan
Syryana
The Alchemist
Zdenek

AND SEPARATE THE WHEAT FROM THE CHAFF HERE:

Benmage
Cephrir
Garruk Relentless
Messiah Complex
quadz08
Shadoweh
Tammy
Tierce

I am super, super confident about the town grouping there. At MOST, and thats a most, there's 1 scum there. If I could nuke the rest of this game right now I would and watch the victories pour in.

The chaff is a little trickier. All in all of that group I think Tierce & quadz are most probably town. Garruk will really depend on the way things shake out, Shadow and Tammy I can't tell if its a distaste from the raw amount of tickling eachother early or the fact that they feel like a hydra displaced that makes me all bloodthirsty. Cephrir and Benmage are my two bipolar reads this game and I want someone to tell me for sure which way to go. Messiah I can barely remember and I just read the game.

As for the last group. I will immediately and without hesitation hammer any of them. My preferences are slightly in favor of AGar, Elle and Zdenek.

Here we've got Zdenek as somewhere in the middle of the pile. He doesn't really emerge as the vote until it starts to seem like a viable lynch. Meanwhile I'm bothered by the throwaway line about Messiah but I could be confirmation biasing I guess. I will admit I kinda really want them to be scum so I can be right about something.

Curiosity SpyreX: You want me dead for the L-1 vote or for general play? Trying to get a gauge on who's actually, y'know, pursuing a case, and who's afraid to take on a POWERFUL WIZARD so taking the copout vote.

Not for the L-1. Aint nothing wrong with that. I really didn't like Andrius and I really didn't like your early play. I will admit, and maybe its because you're rubbing my ego's belly and making it purr, I'm starting to get hesitation because defending me when people are clamoring for blood doesn't make a lick of sense scumwise.

---

I need someone else to reparse whatever the hell is going on between quadz and Naut because it reads like white noise.

---

I don't give a fuck if you have a history of quickhammering. Why? Because you have a history of quickhammering for situations precisely like this one--so you can pretend like you've defeated my argument by telling me you've done this before as town so LOL TRY AGAIN!!!!

No.

The fact that it even crossed your mind to offer this sort of deal when you (presumably) don't know my alignment is scummy as fuck. With that said, if you were to miraculously flip town, I would do the same thing I do every other time I lead a mislynch--forget about it and get back to finding scum.

- Des

On some level I'm not surprised. So, the exit strategy is flailing about and after all the spittle is done, just pretending it didn't happen. Gotcha.

I'm not saying I'm town because lol meta. I'm saying that when your argument is ONLY SCUM WOULD EVER DO THIS THING and you're patently wrong and easily proved such, what are you going to do? You that committed to your nonsense that'd you take a rope for it? Nah, course not, cause that would be a hard stance and better get back to finding scum.

However today is not the time to waste on an ostrich, that can come later.

*passes through with a Spyrex For Scum picket sign*

Wooosh.

The thimble holding the actual content from you today is awful empty.

SpyreX, why aren't you voting... moreover why not Agar?

Are you town?

Because I want sweet sweet hammers yo. I think its clear where I would be going.

Zednek is a horrible lynch. I don't have have the same level of confidence with AGar but he shouldn't be today's lynch too.

I actually like Messiah's recent play.

TheAlchemist really needs to start playing soon. Also what does "Glass Towers" mean in the below line?

I will underline this so it doesn't get lost:

He's talking about other wagons while voting the "lead" wagon. He's not even pretending to try and push through his vote.

If Zdenek is scum, lynch ooba.

{SpyreX, Zdenek, The Alchemist, AGar, Goat on a Raft, Garruk Relentless}

this is pretty much my kill group in order

Goat is town. Just believe. If today ends up being me and stupid please remember that for the futures.

Splitting posts because tldr.

Implies Messiah are BSing and pretending things didn't happen (basically true but not my point) then gets to "I actually like Messiah's recent play". Eh?

The Zdenek-ooba thing is odd. I think we can say without much doubt that they aren't both scum, but let's face it that is not shocking. Does the statement make Zdenek scum? It seems to be setting up a mislynch after that if it's correct. But he was pushing Zd, and this seems like a townie thing to say in that context. I don't know, so I'm probably going to pretend this didn't happen, I guess.

[Cephrir]

I need to look at the wagon yesterday. Might not read posts from here out so I can draw my own conclusions but I'll probably be too weak-willed not to read said posts.

[Cephrir]

Ah, you're right. I skipped the lists and read the part where he refers to "the last group" and assumed it meant the last one listed.

[Cephrir]

kanye you're worrying me here

Don't worry, kanye is town

[Cephrir]

On Messiah:

- Liked his voting with regard to the wagon
- SpyreX also tried to link back to my old case on Messiah
- However, the interaction with Shadoweh was a bit too sure for my liking i.e. "it would have been poetic if you're not there on the wagon when SpyreX flips scum"
Overall: Not scum with SpyreX - because I don't see him voting displaced exactly after I post my case on D2

- I'll look at this soon
-This depends on when and how, as a blanket statement it tells me nothing
-This actually doesn't bother me as much as other things
O: I haven't gone back and looked at this, but I could very easily imagine a scumbuddy seeing displaced come into the slot, see him doing nothing, and come to the conclusion that the slot should be bussed posthaste

Who *is* scum with SpyreX? [I say not having done the delving I want to in order to investigate this yet >.>]

[Cephrir]

Well that was unnecessarily hostile.

You confused Ninja with Strongman, your brilliance.

[Cephrir]

Well that was unnecessarily hostile.

You confused Ninja with Strongman, your brilliance.

why did you jump to this conclusion?

I thought he said he blocked Naut? Did I make that up?

[Cephrir]

And I didn't claim to use the trackyesterday, I used Snare/Block. Naut didn't do any killing or anything at all just like last night quadz didn't go anywhere.

No, no I did not make that up.

[Cephrir]

Yikes, forgot about this. I need to reread but before I do...

@Alfred, Naut, Tammy, Cephrir

& anyone else that can read her well...

Is Tierce town?

I probably should not be included in this group but as far as I can tell yes

[Cephrir]

vote kkb

WK

This is the first post containing a vote after the initial SpyreX wagon. Therefore, it is the first step to the derailing of said wagon in favor of the Zdenek/AGar wagons. And of all things it's for white knighting SpyreX. I'm not saying anything about this really, vote documenting the derailing.

Tammy
Shadoweh
AGar
Benmage
elleheathen
kanyeknowsbest
Messiah Complex
ooba
SpyreX
quadz08

scum are in here ^.

But it feels gross to vote SpyreX.

So I will

VOTE: Elleheathen

Here's another alternative wagon, and with a lame excuse not to vote SpyreX to boot! "I think the guy everyone is voting for is scum but nyeh so I'm gonna do something to actively derail the wagon"? Yuck.

The Spyrex vote is pretty great and we're-a let you finish but Agar made one of the scummiest moves onto the Amrun quickwagon of all time. OF ALL TIME!

{...}

VOTE: AGar

Here's yet another alternative!

I can dig agar scum.

unvote vote Agar

Let me go ahead and make this a real bandwagon even though I literally just voted someone else. Try a little harder to stop this please. At this point I would characterize the initial SpyreX push as completely dead.

I liked the Agar vote more. The lolhammer I can justify as a lolhammer, but putting her to L-1 like that is just complete bullshit.

VOTE: Agar

But on the off chance it wasn't, here's a really poorly reasoned wagon hop. Like actually, read this post and cringe with me as you near the end of it.

Why did you wait to use this ability?

We decided that we would wait in order to avoid giving scum a reason to nightkill us early on, given that the ability could be pretty useful and we're pretty keen on being alive (for this head at least, it would suck if we died before the numbers thinned out a bit). If one of us had been around late Yesterday like we'd meant to/before a lynch happened, it's possible we'd have decided to break it out then. On the other hand, we might have waited longer if we had had more scumflips before Today.

Having not been online when the Amrun lynch happened, we came into Today with fresh deathrage towards both Agar and Spyrex. The urge to whip it out became overwhelming. We're out, we're proud, we have two votes. LOCK 'N' LOAD.

Augh! I still can't talk about this!

here that moved me.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Ooba

This immediately follows a big post about ooba from shadoweh (accompanied by a vote). The picture I'm trying to paint here is that we have some players who appear to be really aggressively hunting for alternative wagons without actively defending Spyre (as kanye did). Primarily P&J and Benmage.

im willing to vote cephrir

(chesskid)

Case in fucking point.

Unvote

I need to sleep+think. These claims change things.

This follows my fake hammer. Those claims really did not change things (I assume claims plural means Alchemist and Spyre). I guess Alchemist's might have a little but Garruk was voting Spyre so that is not incredibly relevant. Spyre claimed a weak protective role. Why on earth should we care about that claim? It shouldn't affect anything, if you want to unvote then just unvote. Note that this post assumes, at least to my reading, that Spyre is aware he has not been hammered.

On an unrelated note, I am having trouble shaking my early townread on elle, even though a few things have made me uneasy. Someone convince me, I guess?

Update on my suspects:
Alchemist: We're not lynching this until Tierce does her thing but I still want it to die.
Messiah: I have very mixed feelings about their interactions with Spyre. I guess this is a good thing for them.
Garruk: Looks worse than before, see body of post.
Goat: Using their double vote on Spyre I actually liked, but they do remove it before too long. Not much change here in light of the new information.
Titus: See Messiah, I suppose, but less so. Hopefully having just played with town Titus will help me out here.
P&J: Welcome!

[Cephrir]

I was examining the area around his wagon for anyone who might have been deliberately detracting from it. I was also looking for potentially awkward half bussing but I didn't find anything that stuck out.

Because Tierce pretty much universally fucked over anyone who tried to even hint at Garruk-scum

???

Goat-scum seems highly improbable

It actually doesn't?

and the odds of everyone not voting for SpyreX being scum is pretty... improbable.

Everyone no, someone probably.

This is going to be a real fucking struggle for me isn't it

[Cephrir]

So SafetyDance if you roleblocked Quadz last night because you were suspicious of him, why does it not worry you that we are missing a kill last night?

That should make you a little more worried about quadz, not feel utterly nonchalant about the whole business.

I cant use a 1shot block twice. Nice try.

THEN WHY DID YOU CLAIM UNLESS NAUTILUS WAS A NINJA HE DIDN'T GO ANYWHERE NIGHT TWO?

AND WHEN ZDENEK ASKED YOU WHY YOU TRACKED NAUTILUS YOU DIDN'T CORRECT HIM THAT YOU BLOCKED HIM?

LIKE FFS.

As I said before I think he just doesn't know what Ninjas are.

Do we really think Captain Literally Bleeds Town Under Pressure could possibly be scum? I certainly wanted to lynch him back when it was fashionable but I don't really think I do anymore.

That said it would be great if he could actually get his shit straight.

[Cephrir]

SSK checking in here. In addition to SD's lack of clarity regarding his claim, this hydra also thinks he's scum because of the difference of his play as compared to Lucid Dreamers Mafia. In Lucid Dreamers, he was way more active and making cases more on everyone. And you know, so explicit with how roles worked that he actually made a table of all the actions that had been performed. So in conclusion

Vote SafetyDance

-SSK

Why have we not heard of this before, or if we have b/c I can't be bothered to check, why haven't you been voicing this much?

[Cephrir]

Well that was unnecessarily hostile.

You confused Ninja with Strongman, your brilliance.

Pfft. More than happy to volley snarky bs back with interest.

Ninja's avoid detection, which is how Naut would avoid being detected doing anything night 2.

?????

he knows what a ninja is. and he cant decide if he tracked nautilus or not.

Oh. Right.

VOTE: SD

[Cephrir]

Ninja's avoid detection, which is how Naut would avoid being detected doing anything night 2.

Tierce I think you need to read this again

[Cephrir]

I was examining the area around his wagon for anyone who might have been deliberately detracting from it. I was also looking for potentially awkward half bussing but I didn't find anything that stuck out.

Because Tierce pretty much universally fucked over anyone who tried to even hint at Garruk-scum

???

Re-read me pushing on Garruk early D3, and then Tierce's responses.

I saw them. Nothing is universally anything.

Goat-scum seems highly improbable

It actually doesn't?

Scum doublevoter isn't a terrible stretch, although I would expect it to be limited. Scum giving out a # of how many scum there are doesn't seem probable at all.

Wanna stop fucking pussyfooting it?

I'm doing something else atm.

So the answer is no. Gotcha.

Nautscum is probably a thing.

[Cephrir]

I never claimed to be making a comprehensive analysis. Those votes happened to be the only things that stuck out to me on a cursory read.

Feeling worse about quadz, better about Titus (she looks like she's on the same drugs she was in Cabd's game. Oooooh, meta meta meta, scary).

I honestly want to lynch SD even though I'm starting to think he's town again. He's single-handedly quadrupling the amount of hostility in this thread and I'm sick of it. I would unvote but I agree with the above post for the time being.

[Cephrir]

Goat here is actually me. It's the same thing you were suggesting doing. The people derailing the wagon are important, because its those that jump on that look like bussing. Such as Goat and GR.

And it was Tammy's format, not Titus. Titus is more confused than Tierce atm.

Cephrir is scumreading the people derailing the wagon, not the people bussing. This is why I think a long-form analysis on it will be good because I think it's a lot more complex than "scum were bussing/scum were derailing the spyrex wagon."

- Des

Just P&J, really.

It is, yes. I was also looking for awkward bussing, but I didn't find any. If you can do better, great.

[Cephrir]

It looks like this day is turning into another binary dichotomy. Even though Agar is completely right about SD contradicting himself and still doing it.

We can go for a pretty good case from someone I'm townreading strongly, against a player I've been very slightly scumreading all game.

Or we can go for an ambiguous hint of something from someone I'm not townreading as strongly, and who everyone else suspects (and so needs to pull something big if scum), against a slot I'm liking better than I was yesterday.

VOTE: quadz

At this rate all my serious suspects are going to survive the whole damn game.

Pre-empting hate on me for pointing out the breadcrumbish thing: It was really obvious, so shut up.

[Cephrir]

Suppose: elle is scum roleblocker.
Suppose: Tierce is town.
Suppose: elle has blocked Tierce.

What's the problem with this?

[Cephrir]

What's the problem with this?

^Try that question, because you didn't answer it. You told me something is potentially unsound but not what or why.

[Cephrir]

Who claims to have blocked their scumbuddy on a night when there was no kill? And then doesn't bus them?

I think "they're not scum together" is the only thing I *am* getting out of this.

[Cephrir]

Maybe because it wouldn't be bussing, because they're not scumbuddies? o.O

Or maybe, hypothetically, elle is deliberately linking herself to a townie, though that's kind of a stretch.

P-edit: yeah that too

[Cephrir]

There wasn't any significant pressure on her to claim, she has been asking people for a while,

Yes.

and she's willing to sacrifice herself.

No.

But it's good enough for me.

Also how about voting the person who was actually blocked last Night?~

I'm gonna need to actually hear that, because what we have right now is something that could easily turn into "lol nah I meant something else".