A uPick of Ice & Fire - Day 12 - #REKT?

[Zdenek]

Through 25

Well, I am not suggesting that since he's a universal miller and that since he's not, he's scum. I am suggesting his claim is bullshit.

The only thing that makes any sense so far, is that he would show up as miller to a role cop, and be town since scum-miller is lolzy. But then why say not regular cop, why not just be clear and say role-cop.

Character cop?

I don't see how that would confirm him as town Ben.

I was thinking of gunsmith as a possibility though.

Why so thick?

Ooba understanding something, doesn't imply that I will.

You should still probably explain it.

What's your read on Benmage?

Nothing strong yet.

I believe I've seen it, but also, it's astonishing to me that this looks worse to you than anything else in the thread. What could possibly be alignment indicative about his misunderstanding even if you're completely right?

I think it shows a mindset of looking to make the miller claim look bad, hoping that will result in a lynch, without really thinking about it. For example, he's ready to vote and declare Thor scum over something that he agreed after being criticized and looked at the wiki was not something pursuable. If you're going to vote for a role-based reason that would be cleared up by looking at the wiki, wouldn't you like ... look at the wiki FIRST, instead of after being called out on it?

It's meh, though. I'm going to keep observing on that score.

I have never seen a miller come out and claim that he's a miller and investigates as town to non-regular cops. Frankly, I still think that it's ridiculous, since other sorts of cops don't investigate people as town. Also Ben has raised good points about this.

Re: all the questions about my kanye read - his posts feel like natural Kanye. It feels like sitting in a GD thread with Kanye. He feels town as shit, and if you aren't feeling the townvibes that are emanating from Kanye like light emanates from the sun, I don't think I can help you. (Seriously, I don't know how to explain it past "holy crap he feels so fucking town right now.")

This is not helpful at all.

I can't tell what Goat on a Raft is trying to accomplish on page 24.

[PeaceBringer]

Can we please have more votes on KKB... do not like the disappearing act in addition

other vote that is worth attending to is PnJ based on the prior mucky posting

not sure I grasped the votes on Cephir

apparently safety dance is a mega lurker...

[Thor665]

I should have bolded 'conftown' as well. You dropped the fact that she suspects you for the overconfident attitude entirely from post 764 when it was clearly a significant element.

Because when town Thor is not overconfident, but becomes overconfident when scum?
Seriously? You think I need to respond to that somehow?

I have zero problem with your actual actions with regard to this, but again, it's a point she wanted addressed that you pretended didn't exist.

Pointing out it was fake is useless, she's aware it was fake and doesn't seem to like the way you went about that.

Then she should ask me a specific question about her nonsensical attack if she expects it to be responded to.
And you should be able to describe a question, if you have issue with me "dodging the point"

I'm saying I don't like the technique you used to dismiss it. I don't see the town motivation in ignoring half of it and representing the case as worse than it actually is by dropping parts of it.

Ooooh, right, I need to take every case and treat it with a serious mein.
No - this case does NOT deserve me pretending it needs to be addressed seriously. You can barely even manage to say it should either, you're admitting it has holes the size of Swiss cheese and now your apparent issue is;
1. That I didn't address all of the silliness (and now have...revealing I think what I dodged is even more silly than what I did address)
2. That I didn't treat her case with "Respect" Well...yes, I didn't...is that a scumtell, or is this all meaningless issue with my playstyle for the sake of showing how horribly dissapointed in my playstyle you are?

Because I can think of more useful things to be doing from someone who decided earlier to stop communicating with me when I pointed out flaws in his own case.
What a shock - you've found I react the same to cases I think are derpy - AMAZING!

The thrust of this point has nothing to do with your miller claim, it has to do with your attitude.

Making it even derpier then unless "attitude" can be shown to be that I am playing to my scum meta of attitude which is different than my town attitude.
Do you think she has done this?
Do you think she's even tried?
I am saying 'no' to both questions. Which means her current thrust is rather bad if it's what you say it is. How do you answer those questions?

Whether these points are incredible or not is irrelevant to the fact that 764 has no purpose except to misrep the case and continue trying to make everything about your miller claim.

You have not shown a misrep.
You have shown that I didn't specifically address a handful of points of (to my mind) debatable merit.
You haven't even claimed them to be of merit, just vaguely 'major' within her case...even though she doesn't appear to be doing what you're saying she's doing.
Meh.

Also, the point of whether the points I "dodged" and "misrepped" are credible in any way...IS important.
Because you don't waste time dodging and misrepping meaningless drivel - you dodge stuff that can catch you. You misrep stuff to paint it as worse than it is.
I did neither because there was nothing to dodge or misrep in the first place.

So you're saying you wouldn't? Not that I think this is a gambit even if you're scum.

That I wouldn't what? Fakeclaim Miller - yeah, sure, I'd do that.
I'd also legit claim Miller if I was Miller.
You now have as much evidence on me as saying 'Thor could be scum in this game because scum are randomly determined'
Whoo-hoo?

You're allowed to say a case is bad. You're not allowed to do so via pretending half of it doesn't exist.

Oh, so I pretended "half" didn't exist?
Tell me, do you think that's a misrep from you in the same way I misrepped her?
Because you certainly didn't bold "half" of what she said to me as stuff I didn't address.
Oh, wait, you're just making a point...shocking that...seems normal from a town mindset I'm guessing you'll say now...right? As in, pot and kettle here, yes? Meaning what I did was quite normal and reasonable, or what you just did isn't...?

If I was going to sheep someone, it sure as hell wouldn't be you.

Oh, right, because I have an attitude I have bad reads.
Carry on.

[Zdenek]

Unvote
Vote Goat

Mainly for their interaction with Benmage which seemed like they were just trying to be antagonistic.

[Thor665]

Misrepresenting people is not gaining you any favors, either, and the sad part is that you do it regardless of alignment.

I have to admit I'm sick and tired of always hearing gak like this even when I'm town and trying 100% not to "misrep" people.
I think either me, or a large number of other players, have no flipping idea what that word even means.
I'm pretty sure "summary someone disagrees with" doesn't qualify.

[elleheathen]

I'm going to precursor this with:

I never stated nor pretended that this was some big case on you nor tried to present it as such. I never implied it was some strong case at all - and even went so far as to belittle what information it is that makes me think you're scum by saying that it's mostly just speculation and gut.

Because I plan to ignore a good portion of your sarcastic blather.

Mmmmmkay.

Oh, also, and in correcting you if you're wrong - with a Miller claim the following roles can all provide rather serious evidence about my alignment; gunsmith, role cop, faction cop, tracker, follower.
Neither Watcher or Voyuer can but...then again, they can't do so for anyone they target...though I suppose if they watched or Voyeured someone *I* targeted, then, again, they would help identify my alignment (since, y'know, Thor would have lied...y'know).
Flavor cop wouldn't help until and if I was forced to nameclaim...also known as 'the only way a Flavor Cop ever helps in a uPick' so it's meaningless because he's as effective versus me as versus anyone.

Gunsmith - in this case, likely flavored something like swordsmith - could not confirm you as town. They could confirm that you had a weapon and confirm that you lied about your role should you be found with a sword but not as town.
A role cop - would tell me your

role

, not your

alignment

and your

role

isn't indicative of your

alignment

.
A faction cop - is basically just a cop for their respective multiball faction - and I'm unclear whether this would play out the same result as a regular cop for a miller of that faction.
A tracker and follower - both could confirm that you targetted someone, which could easily be avoided by inviting everyone to target you tonight and

not targetting anyone tonight

.
A flavor cop - wouldn't help even if you were forced to claim as it gives us your flavor name, which doesn't prove your

alignment

.

The 'I'm a conftown Miller

and Innocent Child basically.'

If she would like to say that she honestly believes I claimed Innocent Child I will respond to this.

I'm an Innocent Child effect basically.

Oh, I'm sorry. Was this sarcasm, too? Well damn, I keep missing it in text. How derp of me.

[Thor665]

Can we please have more votes on KKB... do not like the disappearing act in addition

...he's on v/la?

[Thor665]

I'm going to precursor this with:

I never stated nor pretended that this was some big case on you nor tried to present it as such. I never implied it was some strong case at all - and even went so far as to belittle what information it is that makes me think you're scum by saying that it's mostly just speculation and gut.

"And decided to present it anyway - and am voting you regardless"

Do you see the issue there?

Gunsmith - in this case, likely flavored something like swordsmith - could not confirm you as town. They could confirm that you had a weapon and confirm that you lied about your role should you be found with a sword but not as town.

Which...would do exactly what I said it would.

A role cop - would tell me your

role

, not your

alignment

and your

role

isn't indicative of your

alignment

.

If my "role" is Miller, then at least you need to try to get on the scum Miller bandwagon as a case.
I'm going to go out on a limb and suggest that role has happened...less than five times in the entire history of this site.
So, yes, that would actually be a pretty solid lead on my alignment unless we wish to be pedantic.

A faction cop - is basically just a cop for their respective multiball faction - and I'm unclear whether this would play out the same result as a regular cop for a miller of that faction.

A faction cop identifies faction, last I checked. If you meant simply 'town or scum aligned cop' then I will agree, since that is a regular cop, it would not be of much help.

A tracker and follower - both could confirm that you targetted someone, which could easily be avoided by inviting everyone to target you tonight and

not targetting anyone tonight

.

Which still fails to prevent them from being able to learn about my alignment.

A flavor cop - wouldn't help even if you were forced to claim as it gives us your flavor name, which doesn't prove your

alignment

.

Since I said as much, yes, I agree.

Oh, I'm sorry. Was this sarcasm, too? Well damn, I keep missing it in text. How derp of me.

So, when I said I was a Miller...who could still be investigated by oother means, thus making me like an Innocent Child...you took that as;
Claim: Innocent Child Miller!
And you also didn't request me to use my Innocent Child power?
...
...
...
Whut?
Can you walk me through that again?
This question isn't sarcasm - your point just totally leaves me confused as to what you're saying because you can't be serious and you sound like you're rebutting me, which you painfully aren't.

[Zdenek]

Nacho, did you write 738? If not, could you tell me what you think of it.

[Goat on a Raft]

I can't tell what Goat on a Raft is trying to accomplish on page 24.

After following a few pages of Benmage (a player who, historically, has annoyed this head) banging his drum so ridiculously, we just wanted it to end. We weren't trying to be antagonistic, but we did a poor job of keeping this head's annoyance at his attitude out of it.

[PrideandJoy]

I'm pretty fucking swamped until Wednesday. I'll try to read the last 10 pages tomorrow or something but it'd be nice if dan got his ass back from vacation

[elleheathen]

I'm going to precursor this with:

I never stated nor pretended that this was some big case on you nor tried to present it as such. I never implied it was some strong case at all - and even went so far as to belittle what information it is that makes me think you're scum by saying that it's mostly just speculation and gut.

"And decided to present it anyway - and am voting you regardless"

Do you see the issue there?

That I'm voting with my gut - and plainly saying that I'm voting with my gut and state the reasons why it pinged my gut? Or that I'm going on what makes me

feel

like you are scum as opposed to very obvious scumtells - which you point out won't happen anyway because you're a scum expert - why, just look at your scum win ratio! That issue?


As to the cops issue:

Oh, okay. Good. Now we have it cleared up that none of those roles can

confirm you as

town

like you've been suggesting all along, and that only one of those roles can confirm you as scum. Thanks.

So great. On the off chance that we do have a gunsmith in the setup, we're all set for knowing that you're scum! Except that, as I've said, no guarantees when or if they'd get the chance to out you. And, you know, that's beside the very big

if

.

So, when I said I was a Miller...who could still be investigated by oother means, thus making me like an Innocent Child...you took that as;
Claim: Innocent Child Miller!
And you also didn't request me to use my Innocent Child power?
...
...
...
Whut?
Can you walk me through that again?

You said you were miller, a claim I said out the gate that was my natural inclination not to believe. K.

Who could still be investigated by other means - except that you said you could be investigated as

town

which is not the case and in which only one role can investigate you as anything useful. K.

Claim: Innocent Child Miller - Nope. That's me taking that as you trying to convince people that you're somehow conftown, innocent child - when you're not conftown, innocent child and can't be proven conftown innocent child. K.

[PeaceBringer]

Can we please have more votes on KKB... do not like the disappearing act in addition

...he's on v/la?

he has been prodded

[StupendousMan]

Unvote
Vote Goat

Mainly for their interaction with Benmage which seemed like they were just trying to be antagonistic.

Mainly? What else caused you to make that vote?

[macmollie]

Er, WTF? Mollie, this head has played with you once. What were you expecting from us exactly?

flowers. a poem. something.

I suppose it could be argued that skype is a different medium but I would think that for cdb it would be easier not harder.

Mollie actually doesn't know, but she'll make up some unsupported conclusions in her head and then claim them as meta evidence against you.
Time to move away from the trainwreck that i annoyed I haven't demanded we policy lynch her yet (because that means...something alignment wise for me...?) and just sheep me.
I promise good things with a dead Alfred.

plz tell us moar about your butthurt thor cos it never ever gets old and I never ever get tired of hearing about it ever.

anyways, I was thinking about you today at work and I am thinking that it would be unlike you to claim miller as scum. it is a cheap way to play and I guess I think you would find it unsavory mebbe? not sure if that is right word or not.

so anyways I think you are town now and yaye I don't have to worry about you. I may vote alfred with you he said something that pinged I will have to go look at that again.

[Tammy]

not as happy with sylacious as you but he and tammy are married so that will sort itself out.

Syry and I talked quite a bit in the neighborhood last night; I feel pretty comfortable calling him town.

[macmollie]

mollie's do not touch don't even look at them funny if you do I will hurt you pile:

naut
tammy
syrlacious
kanye
thor

it seems like there was someone else but I forget who they were.

still liking tierce, p&j and messiah for town

I would like to hear more from teirce about the actual game altho her back and forth with thor is awsum

eta: ty tammy I already got there on my own but that will ensure that I won't get weird on him so ty very much

[Goat on a Raft]

Er, WTF? Mollie, this head has played with you once. What were you expecting from us exactly?

flowers. a poem. something.

I suppose it could be argued that skype is a different medium but I would think that for cdb it would be easier not harder.

Skype experience definitely is helpful for this head in reading people but to a much lesser degree than actual face-to-face experience - and, compared to some, this head hasn't played Skype mafia with you all that often, certainly not enough to develop a really natural understanding of your play. Red Wedding Mafia is of more use to us than that body of experience, probably, but it's just one game. This head has had just the occasional tweak of scumdar where you don't feel quite the same as you did in that game, which prompted us to ask Nautilus for their input (which we're happy to go along with for now) - but, mind you, you realised CDB was town in that game a lot earlier than the other way around.

A poem, however, can be arranged.

There once was a player called mollie
Who treated capitals as does TheTrollie
She wrongly scumread the goat
But if she reconsidered her vote
The pair of them would get along beautifully

[Goat on a Raft]

If you say that last line while tripping over, it rhymes.

[macmollie]

omg goat people <3

I guess that is the thing that is throwing me off, is that I think cdb can send a really strong signal when he is town and I am not getting it here. it could the av head that is throwing it off, he always looks like pondscum to me.

anyways I will probably leave you alone for a bit.

[Eddard Stark]

"Oak and iron guard me well, or else I'm dead and doomed to hell.” -
Ser Duncan the Tall

Day 1, Vc 23

PrideandJoy (1) -

Amrun

kanyeknowsbest (3) -

Andrius, ooba, PeaceBringer

elleheathen (1) -

kanyeknowsbest

quadz08 (3) -

Shadoweh, StupendousMan, Cephrir

ooba (4) -

Alfred Borden, quadz08, Goat on a Raft, PrideandJoy

StupendousMan (2)-

Tammy, Messiah Complex

Thor665 (2) -

Benmage, elleheathen

Cephrir (3) -

Syryana, macmollie, Garruk Relentless

Alfred Borden (1) -

Thor665

PeaceBringer (1) -

Nautilius

Goat on a Raft (1) -

Zdenek

Not voting (2)

- SafetyDance, Tierce

With 24 alive it takes 13 votes to lynch

• Deadline Date: 1st of October at 17:05 EDT
  
• Deadline Countdown: (expired on 2013-10-01 17:05:01)
  
• Thor and Benmage are V/la

Prodding Andrius

[Benmage]

Well, I am not suggesting that since he's a universal miller and that since he's not, he's scum. I am suggesting his claim is bullshit.

The only thing that makes any sense so far, is that he would show up as miller to a role cop, and be town since scum-miller is lolzy. But then why say not regular cop, why not just be clear and say role-cop.

Character cop?

I don't see how that would confirm him as town Ben.

I was thinking of gunsmith as a possibility though.

I didn't say that to clear him as town. I don't think he is town. My statement was in response to you asking why say not regular cop...ie things outside of standard cops.. Role cop would be miller, Name cop would be whatever his characters name is.. thats what I meant with character cop... 2 things which do not confirm alignment... Just saying other cop variants.

(hope thats making sense, suffered a concussion today at rugby )

[Messiah Complex]

MOLLIE THIS POST IS FOR YOU PLEASE READ IT I AM REACHING OUT TO YOU WITH THIS POST

Syryana hit his good stride in about #660, I think, and hasn't lost it since. His posts after that are fucking on fire and I feel the same dancing beat that he feels in my heart so you can take the townread as one of the reads I could probably bullshit pretty hard but the truth is that it's a matter of the heart and I trust the little blood pumping motherfucker.

ooba I'm not *as* sure about but I got a good vibe from him early and so am riding on that for a little while. His followup posts firmed up the townread, and I don't think that the wagon on him is very good. I think I explained it a little while ago and read hasn't changed much from then, so I could dig that up if you really want me to?

What do you think of Desperado's opening and could you answer the questions the nice man asked you?

((Also @ Messiah in general: Why did you note that m&m's #212 was null? I noticed you didn't do that with anyone else, so I'm assuming that post has some special importance in FF's heart or something?))

I marked down #212 as a null tell for Mac because it was the first in the quadz train after he made his comments about the wights. Quadz eventually, like 3 posts later, recanted his statements when it was pointed out that alignment came after roles. That's why I put it in the null column, because it seemed like it could have been a poorly thought out idea on Quadz part, but it was quickly jumped on by Mac.

It has been hard to keep up with the number of posts while I am working, but I am caught up.

Do people really believe that Thor is scum? I don't have much experience playing with him, but he did school me in my first newbie game. He doesn't seem to be acting the way he did in that game, where he came out the gate at full tilt and was putting people on their heels to start with. I am not getting the same vibe I was in that game at all. I would firmly put him as town, and those who are still pushing this ill advised and misshapen train on him should reevaluate their positions.

@Cephrir- you didn't like the way we came in the game when it was like 25 pages deep? Would you rather we had come in and said we weren't/hadn't read the thread yet and started playing from there, ignoring everything else that had already happened? And do you have anything specific you would like to go over with us?

[Cephrir]

Do people really believe that Thor is scum? I don't have much experience playing with him, but he did school me in my first newbie game. He doesn't seem to be acting the way he did in that game, where he came out the gate at full tilt and was putting people on their heels to start with. I am not getting the same vibe I was in that game at all. I would firmly put him as town, and those who are still pushing this ill advised and misshapen train on him should reevaluate their positions.

I'm not really sure. I'd love it if someone more familiar could tell me how Thor plays scum.

@Cephrir- you didn't like the way we came in the game when it was like 25 pages deep? Would you rather we had come in and said we weren't/hadn't read the thread yet and started playing from there, ignoring everything else that had already happened? And do you have anything specific you would like to go over with us?

There's nothing wrong with catchup posts as a rule. I just don't like the "sXXX" format of scumhunting. But it's not like I'm voting you right now, I know coming in late can be a bumpy ride, I just have an eye on you as we move forward. I did ask why you didn't mention any specific issues with Garruk despite giving them 7ish scum points, that's a real question. Though frankly if the result of your catchup had been to vote for them (they had the most scummy posts so vote them) would have attracted a lot more ire than what you actually did, I'd still like to hear about that.

[kanyeknowsbest]

the important thing about this is that he realized what i was doing but for some reason veered off onto a completely innocuous cephrir??? thjats the root of my issue w. the goat

Saw what you were doing - and appreciated it, it gave you townpoints - but disagreed that it was worth a vote (and, unlike Cephrir, we had more posts to consider by that point). Cephrir came in, had to have seen that you were already creating an issue and, considering that town's goal early on is to do as much as possible to facilitate reads rather than prolong randomness, should have reacted to your vote but chose not to.

That's the thinking. It's thinking that doesn't catch scum as ofted as it deserves to, because lots of people don't think properly about what they should be doing as town, but it was a good place to start. Cephrir might be town after a couple of more recent posts, however - we're considering whether or not we want to keep our vote here.

Also, people were jumping to claim it being a scum slip that the scum team were made up of wights, which is impossible. Faraday picks roles first in upicks. Then he picks alignments. A wight could be town, while Rob Stark could be scum.

What do you think of what Tierce and Shadoweh said about this?

Anyway, I don't buy that the mods would have informed the miller about the presence of non-standard cops, so Thor's miller claim looks bogus,
- I'm a miller, but you could still investigate me as town.

Unvote
Vote Thor

i read the game