Mafia Behind the Maiden (Game over!)

[ToastyToast]

Apologies for being late to the party. also, its been a while all.

The three people that strike me the most are: Tammy, UN, Tierce.

Tammy for the whole "OMG I'm bitchy" thing. Every post of hers is coming off as artificial--like she's trying to maintain some nonexistent identity. Also, her answers are very unbalanced in terms of reactions. Meaning, whenever someone mentions something about her, she just explodes (especially after being called out for NOT being bitchy/sassy).

However, I shift to UN for that whole "TAMMY"S" town BS. Too much. People who voted UN for his first posts have poor reasoning, but the tammy-un thing is vote worthy.

vote:UberNinja

.
The "herpderp imma ride a day 1 lynch" thing is bad despite the obvsarcasm.

For Tierce, I'm disliking the whole "You can play better than this." thing that keeps coming up with tammy. Her "UN is useless" thing is important to note. She acts as if UN is deserving of a policy lynch, but doesn't vote him in post 83. She also states that she will not "waste her time and energy" on UN. Firstly, at that particular point in the game the UN aggression seems unnecessary/out of nowhere.

Then this

Yeah, I was thinking about it, and it's not the fact that it's uN that's being wagoned--it's the fact that Glork has had enough experience with UN to know better. I've seen Glorktown act like this, but... he should know already. His softclaim looked townish, but this is rather odd. FOS: Glork

So now, UN is useless and bad at the game and therefore

shouldn't

be voted. Thats rather odd too.

So, we have this three person chain.

Tierce adresses Tammy as someone who can "play better," and harps over why UN is someone who will never play well. Doesn't vote either of them.
Tammy has this "bitchy identity" that she needs to get over.
UN cals tammy town despite voting her. UN's reason for voting Tammy (the comment to spyreX about how his persuasion could convince her to even vote herself--which sounds like a combination between flattery and a "don't trust spyrex's silver tongue!") ignores other parts of her game thus far. His later unvote just sounds like an "oops" post. And I don't think its a town "oops."

there is some sort of connection here, and its definitely worrisome.

Quote tag fixed. ~Vi

[ToastyToast]

@Vi: any chance you can fix the Tierce quotes? Apparently I forgot how to do them.

[ToastyToast]

Toast, is Hinduragi scum?

I'm not sure yet. I'm used to posts with more content from him, but nothing has given me a strong feeling. But on that note, What were his results of re-examining Tammy? Why Nikanor? What makes UN an easy lynch compared to Nika? Those are things he needs to answer. His being against any sort of claiming is good.

[ToastyToast]

ugh so fucking annoyed. Just posted a longass response to everyone who asked questions of me, and, of course, my fucking browser decides to delete it all.

@Tammy: yeah, I get the sarcasm in the statement. the "spyreX compliment?" thing was a "herpderpy wtf did I mean by that?" statement. My larger concern is how you seemed to spike in order to match this self-meta of you being bitchy. Yet to be determined whether or not this is just a play or not. In other words, sarcastic statement soon after people point out that you are not actually being very sarcastic = wierd. Also, anything resembling "i'd vote me," sarcastic or not, rubs me the wrong way.

@Haze: 1) I happen to think my vote is significantly more justified than other UN votes. I do not believe it was sincere. This is where we differ. Its a difference of opinion not a scumtell. I also mentioned UN's "explanation" within my explanation and said that it felt more like scum trying to cover his ass than town saying "oops." So, I already addressed this.

@Tierce: I know nothing of UN's past games (or Tammy's, for that matter. Going to check that out next). Also, unwillingness to defend someone with a slight townread, regardless of past game experience, falls upon the scummy side. Why the whole "you could do better" thing with Tammy? What are you trying to gain by saying this?

PEDIT: @Haze: I already explained the connection (Look at what I said right b4 "this worries me"; connect the dots) but I'll give more detail. All three were in argument with one another, and distanced themselves via past experiences/other statements. Tierce doesn't like Tammy's play but takes a "you should be playing better" angle. Tierce won't vote UN but apparently can't stand him. Now, Tierce has a slight town read on UN, but won't defend him. UN votes Tammy but calls her town. Even if it is a mistake, its still soon after and has no real explanation for the change in attitude. Tammy sheeps onto Tierce. Also, re-reading shows Tammy disliking Tierce's meta defense, even though Tammy herself is using meta. Not to mention the fact that meta discussions are really just distracting from the actual game.

There is a connection. I don't think I was being vague about it.

[ToastyToast]

@Duplicity: Why do I need to comment on other people in my first post of the game? What about focussing on three people who were already being highly discussed is bad? I already explained that I think there is a connection between the three, and whether or not they were seen as the most suspicious at the time is irrelevant. If I see three people and find their actions between each other suspicious, then I'm going to focus on them. Not to mention that its the

first

post I made. There's no way I'm going to have enough information for every single player, nor would going through every single player be worthwhile, as it would look something like this:

leaning scum:
UN, Tammy, Tierce

null: everyone else.

[ToastyToast]

- The Tammy wagon is wrong, I know where it's coming from but it's just wrong. I've played with her quite a bit off-site and while Tammy is a very analytical player she reacts poorly towards being voted or suspected as town, it's just her M-O she tends to consider each vote on her as an insult in some form and her emotional outburst is extremely town. Also the "You're so awesome at reading me" to SpyreX is explained enough by her mention of SpyreX misreading her previously in #82 and actually makes quite a bit of sense.

If someone know there meta, then they can manipulate. Thats the main problem I have with all the BS meta defenses people are getting this game.

[ToastyToast]

Did you not get from my first post that there were three people I found suspicious. Good God the stupidity.

[ToastyToast]

Did you not get from my first post that there were three people I found suspicious. Good God the stupidity.

Your top three suspicion list is literally a steaming bowl of shit.

How do expect me to respond to this? Would you prefer I just make up some scumreads on people who aren't being voted? I don't think my scumreads are shitty, and so I'm keeping them. The three of them are in a circle of "I know you before this game" and "I am like this in other games" and I don't like it. To me this is the singlemost suspicious thing in the game thus far. I'm sorry you don't like them, but quite frankly I think its a pretty damn good lead to start with this early into the game.

[ToastyToast]

Okay 1) Stating that their connection is 'weird' can be said about almost any 3 players if you pull them up so you attempting to use that as further reasoning behind why your reads on them is good is stupid.

weird can be synonymous with highly suspicious in this circumstance.
the three of them were interacting with one another significantly more than with other players, and it still rings as early game distancing, something I see in scum a lot.

2) The players you had scum-reads on had wagons on them, stating you suspect them and jumping on is what scum can do easily because it doesn't really put them in the spotlight and allows them to move from a large wagon to another large wagon if needed

So? Whether or not someone has a wagon on them does not in any way, shape, or form change the chance that they will actually be scum. No one else was doing anything I found to be noteworthy, so those 3 are who I'm focusing on. I'm not going to change this because there's already a wagon on them.

3) Stating that you'd have NO reads elsewhere at all is bullshit, you're saying that you'd have no scum/town inklings whatsoever which is near impossible.

Yeah, of course I have other reads, but there is not nearly enough information on them to make a solid opinion. re-read my las post. The reason why I'm not making a list is because there are only three people (at the time of the first post) that gave me strong reactions. I commented on Hito afterwards (when asked), and said that the info wasn't sufficient and thus he's null. I'm saying that if I were to create a big list of all the players it would be largely incomplete. I generally do make such a list during D1 but only when I think I have enough info. Which is not at 8 pages.

I've heard this logic used a lot, it's wrong. While a person can change their meta it's hard to do so genuinely.

I strongly disagree. I have played numerous games where reliance on meta is what lead to a town loss.

will answer rest when i get back

[ToastyToast]

Got a lot to catch up on. I will respond to all of you tonight but its going to take some time. For now, responding to Glork's questions/post.

Seriously. When a player's top 3 suspicion list is exactly the top 3 votegetters in the game, 99% of the time (yes, this is rhetoric, fuck you all) it means that they're scum who are willng to ride any easy wagon to mislynch. It's a hallmark of lazy scum who can't (or simply choose not to) actually hunt for scum on their own. They are content to "find" the most widely-suspected people scummy. Sometimes. Sometimes it comes from very, very weak town who are just incapable of scumhunting on their own. But a vast majority of the time, it's from scum who want to look like they are scumhunting, look like they are contributing, but really just want to get through the day by lynching someone else, as long as they don't attract a lot of attention.

1) Ever consider that I may just be lazy town? Oversoul already mentioned how this game was going to be one I put like 50% effort into. 2)I'm not weak by any means, you are just assuming that I'm only going to have three reads the entire game. The 3 are just a starting point, and the fact that they each had large wagons on them meant I had to examine them and their wagons. Instead of finding sketchy people piling wagons onto them, I found them to have a distracting meta-pregame thing going on. I don't think people get why I don't like it. Its all useless information. Anything that happened in another game is from

another game

and not this one. This three of them were relying almost entirely on things other than the first eight pages.
I am in no way inexperienced at mafia and I know why suspecting the 3 top vote getters can be suspicious. But I'm still of the opinion that there is something b/w the three of them and I'm not going to ignore that and replace it with reads I don't actually have a strong opinion on.

How do you feel about Nikanor? Why?

Nikanor is bordering on trollish with his "what rhymes with talcum mist?" stuff, but thats something independent of alignment. I wish he'd say more about his Alchemist read but I don't expect him to. He's full-null, primarily due to a lack of information.

How do you feel about Oversoul? Why?

Town. REads are good, puts effort into explaining them, has been fairly informative thus far into the game.

If Haze were dayvigged right now, and flipped scum, who do you think would be most likely to be his scumbuddy? Why?

Hmm. I'd have to say Gamma just because they sort of passively mention one another, without really challenging the other in any way. It comes of as "oh, then there's this Haze guy." I don't think Haze is scum, however. Could also be UN because he's essentially defending him with the powerful statement of "it felt sincere." ie, something subjective that I should be able to disagree and counter by simply saying "it didn't."

More soon.

[ToastyToast]

But since I'm here and can read the post directly above mine, @implosion: and I acknowledged UN's "oops" post within mine and said I thought it was BS. I'm pretty sure I've caught all these allegedly overt things you are talking about, and have mentioned them in my posts. read.

[ToastyToast]

Why do you have enough opinion for "leaning scum" but not enough for an opinion aside from null even if you have reads?

Because I needed to get scumreads down, not town reads. Secondly, if you actually read the post that I did the Null: everyone else thing, you would know that it was in response to Duplicity who suspected me for not talking about other people. 8 pages in, those were my strongest scumreads, and so I wrote about them. Town reads don't matter nearly as much. If you know I don't suspect them, you know where I stand on them. I also explained that I will eventually make a list talking about everyone, but its too early for that. Hence, my point that its too early to actually take the time and go through everyone, especially with my time constraints.

I dislike Toast for much the same reason I dislike LLD although he has a scumread on Tierce and Tammy which I like.

I'm guessing you are talking about the UN vote. I voted UN over Tammy because I wanted to see how she played the whole meta-game. I voted UN over Tierce because she could just really dislike UN.

I'd also point out that you seem to expect me to be paying attention to everything right now...which I'm clearly not. From my read and without analyzing my posts, that's what I got. Meh. I don't even know you scumreads right now but I can't be fucked to care.

Hm. I'd say singer's Tammy vote drama is just as bad as UN's. If she keeps up with the excuses and the Scotland thing, red lights. start caring or I'm going to assume there's another reason you don't care.

i don't really get where all the Ludi hate is coming from.

@DDD: Instead of saying things, then voting a person that doesn't relate to any of the said things, could you, like, explain your votes?

As scum he can easily attribute whatever actions you've done to pure 'scumminess' rather than anything else and his vote on Toasty isn't 'predatory' by any means, it's merely voting someone for dropping a rather significant scum-tell (Only suspecting players who have wagons already). Anyway cutting down on posting is a good idea.

Again, I'm going to vote for people I find suspicious over people I don't have an opinion on, especially when its my first post of the game. In addition, all three of them were at like L-9, which is hardly a wagon. People who have votes on them are going to attract more attention than people without them for anyone who's trying to catch up 8 pages and get their first vote in.

Tierce is ignoring a great deal of things that make her fairly obvtown including her reaction/genuiness to being voted alongside her unpromopted soft-claim.

How does an unprompted soft-claim make someone obvtown? How does her reaction make her obvtown?

BlahBlahBlah meta blah blah omg paranoia mafia blah

Agree with UN that most of the Alchemist votes are lazy

The three starting/main wagons? No visible intent to actually get reads elsewhere or push your scumreads?
Rope pl0x.
UNVOTE: Tammy
VOTE: ToastyToast

Shocker. Tierce fails to get the point of that statement. The point was to show why I'd rather not make a list of EVERYONE. 8 pages in, I'm not going to talk about everyone. I''m going to talk about people who are under suspicion and figure out if I also suspect them. In this case, I did also suspect them. Null:everyone else is not my actual list. I don't want to make something I think is going to be useless for the most part, especially given that some people haven't even talked yet.

I mean, seriously, wtf is this? So we've played/read each other before, and that's suspicious? (You're in for a loop with me, I've read a lot of games for my join date.) You're not even trying to figure out who is scummier of the set? You have no comments on anything else? 'This early in the game' being page 20? We may be close to the start chronology-wise, but you find nothing else to comment on?

I've been busy enough defending myself given that ever since my first post I've had like 20 questions to answer each time I come back. I've been forced onto the defensive, having to defend my scumreads from a first post. Yes, 20 pages is still fairly early, especially since I'd say there's only like 6 people who are posting a lot and a bunch of people who are just sort of sitting back.

Then... my aggression is scummy, how? When I've stated directly in this game that I intend to be more aggressive as town, the reasons for it, and then do it--calling me (over)aggressive = scummy seems to defeat the point.

saying "oh hey guys, Imma play differently this time " is scummy too. Why do you need to tell people you're playing differently? Why not just do it? Unless your "new town" matches your scum identity, there is no reason for it. And if it does match your scum identity, then its still scummy.

I'm not really reading UN's posts.

protown attitude right there.

MOREMETABLAHBLAHBLAHITSABUNCHOFDISTRACTINGNONSENSE

It's different. Ludi is asking me who are potential mislynches--either for him or so I'll share that knowledge with the rest of the game. With the amount of games I read, this is dangerous information to provide scum with off-hand, and it has no bearing in whom I actually think is scum, so there's no point in dwelling on it.

Not necessarily. By giving that information, scum would have to risk being called out on it. Say, if you and Ludi agree that Tammy is a potential mislynch, scum might actually ignore such a wagon.

Oh, what the hell. That was obvious enough to anyone familiar with Fire Emblem and any scum worth their mettle will realize who the trio is.
I'm Rolf. If Oscar and Boyd (or other Greil Mercenaries) are out there and can neighborize/masonize/whatever, HAI I'M HERE.
If not, well--carry on.

WHY. WHY WHY WHY. Oh, that's a good idea! Lets tell scum that there's a dangerous and possibly-conf-town trio!

Unvote:Vote:Tierce

Lastly, BLAHBALHMOREMETAISTHISALLULIKETOTALKABOUTPEOPLECOMEON

Sure, any other people who're suspicious?
Also why the need to insult your wagon?

working progress. Singer; going to look thoroughly at Duplicity as well--not really a scumread, but gettin them feels.
I will insult my wagon if I think its stupid. Not like I'm in OMGUS mode.

I expect that "Micaiah's plan" list isn't going to include just 'famous' names, but honestly I stepped too far on that softclaim and thought it best to be open about it and call for my potential 2/3rds. With luck, there is actually a power role if we get together, oooor there is actually no co-PR whatsoever and paranoid scum shoot me, which wouldn't be too shabby.

So, instead of just shutting the f up about your softclaim, you decide to name claim AND mention a possible connection of the three brothers? You do realize that this is more dangerous than just soft-claiming? Its not even an issue of a single death

UNVOTE:
Yeah, my vote definitely doesn't belong on Tierce.
VOTE: Wyrd
Something seems out of place.
(Yeah this is a crapvote, it's late and I'm typing this in bed so gimme a break.)

Umm I know you unvote him and say "idk where my vote should be," but then why exactly did you put a vote on Wyrd?

Hint: Name starts with Toasty, ends with Toast, he of the very comfortable scumspicions on the original three wagons and no apparent work on trying to unravel scum-town/town-town/scum-scum connections between his scumspect trio or getting reads on anyone else.

this sort of "let's convince people!" shit is awful.

Hmm. Rereading Toast, I've realized I'm misrepping him somewhat--he did try to get something more out of his trio.

But you still keep the vote on me. Then why say this? Only reason I can see is to distance yourself from the wagon if I flip town.

Maybe realize that I don't have to 'try' because this behavior comes naturally because I'm town? I mean, seriously, if you want to call me "too townie" just after you called me obvscum, by all means. (Hint: look at most of my finished town games, I do obvtown like crazy. And yes, I call myself obvtown as town, because the level of clarity in my alignment tends to be pretty ridiculous.)

huh? unwarranted cocky "I'm awesome" attitude in a game where people don't think you are obvtown? confuzzling.

Also, with "players looking for players" as a mechanic, there's a very good chance that the scums have one (or more) watcher/tracker abilities. If they use said abilities on you, you're outing even MORE townroles to the scums.

You know I heart you, but seriously, get your shit together.

This

Hmm. Used to MoI giving way more reasons than gut (and yes, I know its a hydra). That being said, which head is talking here? MoI's spyreX questions are good but I think Spy responded in a town way

I was successful as scum in Paranoia. Yes, I was copying my town meta and subverting my scum meta in that game--there were several instances of "why would scum Tierce ever do this" that were there on purpose. That's what I've learned to do as scum because it wins me scum games, and heck, it was fun to do.

And what to stop you from using your meta to get through this game?

if I die early, town has players far more capable than me to keep things going--I'm not THAT arrogant. Tiercetown doesn't die that early in Larges

wow. Let's play "compliment the playerlist," eh?

Toasty: connection hunting is bad. In a 29-player game, the probability that you're going to successfully pick out two scum from a relational tell on day one is practically zero. I always cite Vi's guide when i'm making this point but yeah it should be obvious why and I don't feel like going into why right now.

Yeah, it can be bad, but I was using it at a starting point, not a sole read that I'd never change. Either way, I did see a connection, and given that I think scum are more likely to fool around with one another/petty banter it out in early game, I found it important to mention.

So you think uberninja calling tammy town was bs - do you think this is a scumtell regardless of tammy's alignment, or only if tammy is scum?

My UN vote is not completely dependent on Tammy because its scummy regardless of Tammy's allignment to vote them and then say you think they are town. Even if UN had unvoted Tammy when he changed his mind, it'd still be scummy. It would still be a sudden switch in perception without explanation.

Also, I think I already said this in response to OS, but I voted UN over Tammy because I wanted to further see how she played. In the end, I pretty much had 0 reasons not to vote for UN and a few reasons not to vote Tammy and Tierce.

I'm pretty sure that I won't be the first to say this, but sometimes scum fuck up because they don't care where their vote is or because they forget the lie they are currently telling. Frankly, I have no idea why you would be leaning town here. To me it seems as though at best you could say that it's null.

Pretty sure Z here is town, and he's right about this.

@Zdeneck: why is hunting for third parties early scummy?

No, excuse me, what is this.
More Toasty votes. More Toasty flips.
In the name of Khorne I beseech thee.

I'm starting to see why Tierce doesn't like you. But you guys do have one thing in common: you both post crap like this!

I think Alchemist-Glork is a town on town fight.

Well. That was long, apologies.
I'll give this to you, Tierce. I don't see the "omg I'm always obvtown" thing but you sure do write a ton.

[ToastyToast]

What is this, WallMart?

yes

[ToastyToast]

ooooh burn. nice, nice

yes. it was a good one. doesn't make it true.

@Tierce: It can either be 1) a rly dumb town move or 2) scum claiming a role that-could-or-could-not-be masons. However, the suggestion of it means town is going to be more likely to see you as town/is an easy way to get suspicion off. I already had other suspicions of you, and I don't see the town logic behind claiming so early (you don't have to explain it to me I know what you say your reasons are). I find the fact that you weren't actually being pressured into claiming the main deciding factor for scum over poor town move.
Also a possibility that you

want

people to target you. Claiming such a thing as scum could draw out a doc protect, which then could give scum an ID on the doc, if they watch you.

[ToastyToast]

oh, the other question: It seems an unnecessary comment to make, and the buddying=all those people you <3 may actually fall for something and see you as town for it. It works similar to sheeping. A scum sheep can be like "I like this guys opinion!" The person who made said opinion will be happy that they managed to convince someone, and thus the similar opinion leads to a town read. With buddying, its the same, but the "similar opinion" takes the form of a compliment. I think it could work the other way, but thats not what I was getting at. Just like your past negative relationship with UN has made you want to ignore him, a highly positive experience with a player could make you less willing to vote them, whether or not you consciously realize it.

PEDIT: In my long post I think I said I thought you guys were both town. I understand the whole pot-shot thing, but I disagree that you are the only victim of it. Sounds to me like its just how Glork is playing--taking short little jabs at people. I think glork is explaining less than he thinks he is, which could be the issue/why he isn't responding.

[ToastyToast]

Why? You didn't have a similar reaction to me trying to move SpyreX onto Tammy. What makes the two situations different? Is me trying to get my scumreads lynched scummy? Why?

No, they aren't different. UN did it as well. I would've mentioned SpyreX and Glork, but most of it occurred prior to where I needed to catch up. Being like "oh hey, you should just vote Toast" is just a dick move that is basically telling people they don't have to think for themselves. Not necessarily scummy but it definitely rubs me the wrong way.

[ToastyToast]

@MoI: I just like to know who I'm talking to. If you are doing the whole "united post" thing, then thats fine, but if the two of you have separate opinions I'd like to know.

Grey: Read 430, 436, 437, 448, and then vote Toasty.

Okay, yeah, his top 3 suspicions are the top 3 people being wagoned, and he's doing these useless walls of content that don't contain anything.
I'd hang him for #555 where he literally posts an entire wall with no content though.

Vote: ToastyToast

It wasn't useless. I responded to every persons questions and more. So, I basically did exactly what was asked of me. "Oh, HOW USELESS!" Fuck you.

@Tierce: 1) I think its fake. if you think you are going to die, don't get all bent out of shape and say something useful rather than just passing out hatemail. Also, your whole "but I was obvtown!" act is so damn annoying. You don't get to use it as a reason to explain why people shouldn't have targeted you. Its the same as saying someone shouldn't vote you because "insert player name here" thinks you are town.

@OS: Why are you apologizing for your play? You don't even know the results yet.

@Glork: Dayviging someone you think is scum but others think is town is no worse than vigging someone you think is town but others think is scum.

@hinduragi: What do I think of my wagon? Well, i've tried my best to explain why its a bad one, but look at the votes on me. Sure, there are a few people who have made valid points about my vagueness and initial reads, but then it turns into a shit storm. it suddenly turned into a "what? toasty said everyone but the three biggest wagons is null? VOTE HIM!" which, to me, clearly means people didn't get the point of my saying that. That was in no way a list. That was me explaining that I think it would be unecessary to talk about every single one of my feelings about people only 8 pages into a game. Then, you have DDD, GreyICE, Katsuki, UN, and Spy who just sort of hop on. Its fucking infuriating to see people put so little effort and basically just go onto a wagon. Not to mention that the main reason

I'm

being voted is because my scum reads all had wagons. They are doing the exact same thing I did, but providing an even smaller amount of information and just tunneling onto one person. How is that fair?

PEDIT: ah, seems Tierce has let the whole "FUK YOU FUK YOU" thing go and is sounding rational again.
@Tierce: If OS is faking the dayvig, would your town read on him change?

[ToastyToast]

@MoI: It doesn't matter which "hydra-path" you take, so to speak, but I think its useful to know. Like, if for whatever reason there is some sort of contradiction in your posts, it would make exponentially more sense if I knew it was a different person talking.

@Grey: Really? You can't see any content from that? Do you want me to analyze it for you?
-Singer did the same thing UN did, and is suspicious for the same reason
-Points out that I don't know what is causing the Ludi wagon
-Defends myself for like the 8th time about why people shouldn't be voting me for having three reads on people with wagons
-Asking why the F anyone would consider claiming pro-town. (its not, its a rhetorical question)
-Voices anger over the meta BS
-Voice disagreement over the alchemist wagon.

That looks like plenty of content to me.

[ToastyToast]

He outed town roles for zero reason and has yet to provide a shred of insight or analysis from his "gabmit," and his vote is still on Tierce, who is 100% confirmed town at this point.

Even on the off-chance that this was a towngambit, Oversoul is clearly terrible enough to need to die. My vote isn't moving. Ever. In fact, I might just refuse to post any content whatsoever until he dies.

What? How did he out people? All he did was fake a dayvig on someone who already claimed, and then people were stupid enough to say "OMG BUT I WAS LOOKING FOR ROLF U MESSED IT ALL UP" or whatever. your fault, not his.
And no, Tierce is not 100% confirmed town. I don't see her name in green anywhere, or Vi coming out with a message saying "Tierce is now an innocent child!"

i do, however, want to see what OS thinks he got from his gambit. You also fail to explain why there is only "an off-chance" that this is a town gambit. People fake dayvigs all the time. The only thing different I see about this particular one is that the target went bitchfitcraycray after it happened.

PEDIT: Hindu, I want to know too, but if OS is dealing with computer problems, you can at least give him a couple more minutes.

[ToastyToast]

When you fake daykill someone who 90% of the game thinks is protown, and send another player who 90% of the game thinks is protown into a mad scramble, and fail to provide any protown beneift from said "gambit" whatosever? Yeah. It's basically the same fucking thing.

Where are you getting these fake numbers?

[ToastyToast]

"LOL Tierce is not conftown let's stick to a useless vote in which I'll never get 14 people to wagon her with me today."

Why are you still voting me, Toast? It's pretty obv you're not going to get me lynched today. Besides the incredibly town reaction I had, you'd need 50% of the game voting me, which is not happening any time soon when everyone but you is calling me town. G'luck with that.

OTOH, his vote is definitely not survivalistic.

Blegh. I need a paradigm shift in this game, so will reread. I also need a cattle gun between UberNinja's eyes, but that's repeating the obvious.

You do not get to call your

own

reactions incredibly town. You don't get to analyze yourself. Anytime you say that just makes it sound contrived, like "btw, remember how GREAT that one thing I said was?" And are you seriously going to give me crap for

not

being on a primary wagon? I can make my own decisions tyvm.

Secondly, my post-gambit thoughts on you are a lot more complex then "OMG TIERCE IS TOWN NOW." If anything I think your reaction was incredibly scummy with the exception that I find it hard to believe that Glork would be lying about his claim.

Implosion is a good lurker wagon, but hey, you know who else hasn't posted much? Katsuki! And Katsuki is scum!
Join justice

I would include you right up in the "I haven't posted much" group. And you complain that I'm not providing content. sheesh.

i'm pretty happy with this vote for now actually. you probably want me to vote toast but i've played with him-town before (and was the guy who pretty much pulled the trigger on his lynch as well) and I can see what he's done so far coming from town-toast. i wouldn't mind seeing more reads from him but I'm pretty sure he'll be getting to that soon enough or everyone else will rope him without me.

I'm going to do the usual toast ranking of the people in the game next post. May not get it done today though. Lots of shits going on.

[ToastyToast]

Well this post should only take like 2 minutes to read,so..

Unfortunately I wasn't able to get my whole list done, but I have a few of them done.

SCUM

Debonair Danny DiPietro: Blegh. Lurker I have the most issue with. The “GIVE SPYREX MY VOTE” comes 1) too soon, 2) allows DDD to blame spy for being wrong, 3) is illogical. Also, there is no reason why a person shouldn’t be concerned with the scum wincon. Any information Vi gives should be used for town’s advantage. Looking through his post, all I see is one-liners that don’t even relate to reads. The closest resemblance to a read is saying he’d vig dram if he had a vig. And that’s a threat, and there is no reason to say it unless you are going to vote them.

Leaning scum

Lady Lambdadelta: Where oh where did she go? Excuse me for being hypocritical, but my past experiences with LLD have always had her as super aggressive regardless of alignment. So that's weird but null. Immediate wagon analysis = pointless; there were better reasons to vote UN; She also seems to have a strong town read on Tammy; The full confidence in there being scum on the Tammy wagon is probably true (I think there were seven on it at the time; #’s suggest that at least one person would be on it) but also overly trusting given the short time span. On the positive, her response to Duplicity was very similar to mine, and, despite the fact that she’s focused on UN, she’s challenged other people (i.e. not craycray tunneler)

Null

13. Magister Ludi: I really don’t understand the case against him. That's really all I have on him. Dislike the vote off of alchemist and his justification for it.

Null

15. MathGirl277: Who? Hopefully replacement posts soon.

null

22. singersigner: Her vote fail is just as scummy as UN’s, regardless of her vacation. I also think it was hasty to call my statement a threat, and she is being overly defensive. Why establish a “IDGAF” attitude? Couldn’t you just say “I’m on vacation?” I don’t mind the fact that she’s busy and thus not active, but (what I meant by my alleged threat) if she continues to be inactive after her trip and continues to make excuses for bad plays, then we have a problem.

special

25. Tierce***: At a dilemma here. On the one hand, I thought Tierce’s reaction to OS’s gambit was terribad. And I had a scum read on her before that. However, the claiming definitely complicates matters. I have a town read on Glork, and as such have to accept that he indeed is being truthful about looking for Rolf (barring it being a gambit, double-scum fake-claim, or that for some strange reason Rolf is a fake claim but is still the person Glork is searching for). All the other possibilities sound like long shots and as such my Tierce read is suspended.

Leaning scum

UberNinja: I don’t think his mistake sounded genuine (reason I originally voted for him). I don’t think his reads are terrible, and my main complaint now is a matter of content.

NULL

Wyrd (Fate + Nuwen hydra): Need more from this slot. I expect more from something with Fate in it. Did I miss something with regards to a reason for the low activity?

Super town

29. Zdenek: good reads, good pushes; Hope the family emergency thing gets sorted out

So this is nowhere near done. I'll keep posting reads and then put the people in order from scummiest to towniest.

In any case

Unvote:Vote:DDD

. best vote for the reads I've done thus far.

[ToastyToast]

Are you FUCKING KIDDING ME, people? I said I was nowhere near done with my reads, I said I would finish them, I said you should not look at it like a finished product, and I said that it was going to be slow-goin' thanks to real life issues, and You are STILL voting me for it? I haven't even ranked my reads yet. Those nulls can still end up low on my list when I'm finished.

Pissed.

[ToastyToast]

vote toastytoast

Hurr.

Word, his latest post is terrible; only nine reads and four of them are null? Wyrd is a null read due to lurking but I'm a scum read due to the same, goofier than a pet coon. If I wasn't already voting for him and hadn't pledged my vote to SpyreX I would totally move my vote to Toasty now.

This is a total misrep for the above reasons and the fact that I said you are the lurker I have the most problems with because you've managed to say plenty of scummy nonsense in like 14 sentences. Wyrd is lurking, but at least he's

doing

something when he posts.

[ToastyToast]

Finished. You guys seriously need to learn how to back the fuck off. Every time I check the game its some new illogical vote on me that ignores what I say completely. Implosion, UN--learn how to play. Thats not an Ate. Its called being pissed off at all the stupidity in this game. Starting to remind me about why I stopped playing. Also, if you honestly think I can write a long ass opinion piece on all 29 players in the game, know how I solidly feel about their alignments, and respond to every little thing in a reasonable amount of time....ugh. I may not complain about my other commitments as much as Quaoroath or Singer, but if you can give them some time, then you can give me time, too. I posted those 9 reads because they were what I had done, and I didn't know if I would get a chance to finish every read. And honestly, you would probably be voting me if I waited, and would probably had already decided to vote me before I even had my list done.

In order from scummiest to town.

DDD

Implosion: He’s gotten worse with each post, basically. I still don’t know why he’s voting dramonic. No explanation. Why does he explain the vote on me but not the switch to dram? No sense made. Don’t like his long posts suck attitude; I think town are more likely to prefer posts with content over implosion’s posts. I also don’t recall this attitude from him before. The “don’t see Magua votes” comes out of nowhere. May just be a phrasing confusion. Mentions too many people without explaining why, and does not allow anyone to get a grasp on his reads above “I’m voting for this guy.” Last post just threw me over the edge. Of course I’m working on the list. I’m not going to be able to throw it all down in the same time span as a “are you fucking kidding me?” post.

20. Quilford: Stopped doing anything as soon as he didn’t have to defend himself. His “vague, negative feelings” list has no explanations attached, blames lurking on school. Sorry, but that's not going to cut it. Votes me without explaining why his “vague, negative feelings” turned into a vote;
Also, did no one catch the “I don’t know who to vote!” thing? When I started on mafia, that meant the person was probably scum who can’t figure out how to fake a case.

15. MathGirl277/Shmugen: ugh. Really? You are going to harp and focus on things that happened so early? Make something new up, rather than just being a sheep. If I’m going to get crap for my wagon reads early game, then there is no way in hell you should get away with it. Your 3 reads are me, singer, and Ludi. That's just as bad and its like 40 pages in. Who? Hopefully replacement posts soon.

21. GreyICE: Never know what flavor of GreyIce I’m going to get in a game. He seems to be like VOTE KATSUKI every fucking post. Guess what? Saying that is ineffective, and I believe I already attacked others as to why it's a scummy thing to do. I’d say he comes up on the lower end with his banter with katsuki.

LLD

Tierce

singer

14. MaguaofIllusion (MagnaofIllusion + Magua hydra): Don’t understand some of his reads. GreyICE read is odd, since it basically reads like “well, he’s done some scummy things but he’s funny!”; a lot more to say about Tammy than “she’s playing differently” (i.e. Tammy has a ton of content); However, I don’t think he’s spewing BS like some people suggested, and the wagon on him worries me.
(Lurkyland!!)

UN

16. Nexus: Who?

17. Nikanor: Meow?

18. Oman: What?

2. Teleporting Speed Hippos (AurorusVox + PeregrineV hydra): Another super lurky mc lurkerston.

11. Katsuki: Nothing I can say about this slot that hasn’t been said already. I have more problems with the other lurkers, but that doesn’t make his play right.

4. dramonic: seems to have a strong concern over the lore of the game, talked about little else early

Wyrd

Ludi

9. Hinduragi: Explained a little on his earlier, but he’s grown more town on me. I was sketched out after the OS vote, but he explained it well in terms of why he had a problem with the gambit, and why he was unvoting OS later on.

23. SpyreX: Response to MoI convinced me of town status

24. Tammy: My only read that has changed completely. I thought the meta thing was awful, but her more recent posts show much more actual content, and she is putting a clear effort into scum hunting.

6. Gammagooey: singer, kat focus is good; actually gave me a chance to respond.

5. Duplicity (Regfan + Shift hydra): Re-read slot and ended up with more good things to say than bad. They’ve been vocal, have decent reads; good town voice.

1. Alchemist (as an alt of Timeater): leaning town. I disagree with his Glork assessment, but that doesn’t mean scum would write it. I actually disagree with his OS, ludi reads too, but the fact that he put effort into finding out if OS was lying about the virus means he’s probably town.

7. Glork: Also gave me a chance to respond; has been pushing a lot. I of course did not like his reaction to the OS gambit and thought it was hasty, but now scummy per-say. See Tierce.

8. Haze: definitely town. Questions of me were valid, not sheeping; good gut, too.

19. Oversoul: I thought he was town before the gambit, and, regardless of whether said gambit was a good one, it came off as a very protown action.

Zdeneck

short version (for the long-post challenged

Scum (scummiest-->w): DDD, implosion, quilford, schmugen, GreyIce, LLD, (Tierce--special)
Middletown (nulliest-->leaning town) singer, MoI, UN, (Nexus, Oman, Nikanor, TSH--same grp), dramonic, Wyrd, Ludi,
Town(townies-->Sheepable) Hindu, SpyreX, Tammy, Duplicity, Alchemist, Glork, Haze, Oversoul, Zdeneck

I was going to respond to more people in detail, but just reading a page makes me want to throw things and I already wrote this.

[ToastyToast]

Also, a list of people lurking:

DDD, quil, LLD, singer(v/la tho), UN, dram, Wyrd, nexus, oman, nikanor, tsh, GI, implosion (unless he wants to piss me off a little more); this is too much. thats thirteen out of 29.

PEDIT: what you have explained you've explained poorly. You justify reads because its the town thing to do. Yes, but I wrote your section before your vote on me (a fish could've figured that out) and your vote on me just makes you scummier. And the fact that you changed your vote from dram to me does not change my beliefs about you slot, and doesn't in any way change what the dram vote shows. I ISO'd your slot and found sub-par after sub-par statement, and, honestly, thought your posts were more tedious and awful than anything MoI or Tammy have posted. I will at the least skim any long post I see.

[ToastyToast]

hi alchemist.

Vote for toasty.

Like this shitty gem right here. Short, yet I don't want to put effort into something with now effort.

[ToastyToast]

Maybe. Probably not. Frankly, this is just a bad question :S. I don't focus on connections on day one. And even if I did, having two scumreads that I don't think are scum together (i mean, it's obvious that the expected answer to your question is 'no') in no way prevents me from voting one of them. And I see toasty as scummier than dddp.

I know you said connection-reads D1 are bad, but do you think they are inherently scummY?

The toasty wagon is filled largely with nullreads, with some townreads and one scumread. My scumreads aren't ganging up and voting anyone.

I find it hard to believe that in my being L-6 you only have one scumread on my wagon.

ToastyToast (L-6) ~ Haze, UberNinja, SpyreX, Debonair Danny DiPietro, Quilford, Gammagooey, Wyrd, implosion, Teleporting Speed Hippos

five people on my wagon are lurkers, 2 of them are following Gammagooey, 1 is you, and then there's spyreX and Haze.
So, basically, I'm getting voted primarily by the people putting the least effort into the game, and only 3 who I think have actually done something.

[ToastyToast]

To be honest, I don't have a large bunch of scum reads on your wagon either. I'd say TSH, and then maaaaaaybe DDD and Haze (and uberninja is just derpy).

The point isn't the scumreads, but the fact that its a bunch of people who don't do shit

Colorized for you. DDDP is my only scumread on the wagon. I've mentioned all of the townreads except for gamma. Haven't gotten real opinions on anyone else here.

Firstly, i don't got a clue how you can get a town read from UN or Wyrd. If you could explain those, please do. May give me a better look into their slot. Secondly, it doesn't trouble you that you don't have opinions on half the wagon?

No. I just think they're a stupid thing to do.

So you are okay with this? Why not mention it? I mean, you mentioned it as a reason for voting me (connection between Tierce, Tammy, UN). It looks like selective thinking.

Its another reason I like toasty, he's willing to poke at DDD and go *here's somebody*, because he honestly believes there might be scum slipping along in that slot. TSH falls in the same category for myself.

Lol seriously? This is the kind of buddy defense that gets used these days?

UNVOTE:
VOTE: TOASTY

LINK DETECTED

KILL MODE ENGAGED/afk GW2 week-end

[ToastyToast]

@Tierce: I will look at Glork's later posts like you asked. I know I missed something from his end. Tammy summed it up for me though--I am definitely having the bad feelings vs. logic issue. Its more like I originally had you down as scum, eventually thought you were the scummiest of my UN, Tierce, Tammy reads, and then thought the reaction was awful. However, the Rolf claim and Glork (not just his claim but also his view on you) keep suggesting to me that I'm wrong.

I disliked the fakevig reaction because 1)I thought it was unecessarily overaggressive 2) seemed like a poor sport, which I associate with upset scum over upset town 3)the whole obvtown thing spiked up here. In other games I have been in, a fakevig may piss town off, but not to the point of bullying or loss of all logic.

If I were to take out Glork's role in my read of you, then you'd still be scum for the reasons I gave before. However, this is b4 re-reading Glork, so I will get back to you.

Waiting for implosion's response to my last question

@Whoever asked about DDD being lazy: Again, 13 out of 29 people are lurking. There is no excuse and it needs to stop. The fact that we are letting people like DDD just get by is too much. Also, DDD's decision to sheep spy came very quickly, and seems a rash move to make. He also did not give his reasoning behind trusting spy. I also have never seen a sheep player who votes against their better judgement. Its always "well, *this player* seems pretty smart, and his case was good, so I'll sheep!" not "im lazy and don't give a fuck, so I'm going to select a random player and sheep them even if I think there's a better lynch."

[ToastyToast]

@Tierce: So I looked at all of Glork's posts like you add, and I don't exactly know what you were expecting me to find. My opinion that your alignment is somewhat reliant on Glork for me stands. Individually, I find your behavior scummy. However, your claim seems awfully hard to fake, and its unikely that its some Glork-Tierce conspiracy. Thus, my read on you is on hold, and there are better lynches at this point.

Plan to catch up tomorrow. I've been moving stuff into my new apartment.
People I would lynch (I believe someone asked this):
implosion, scummy lurkers

[ToastyToast]

My thoughts on MoI wagon: I don't often see MoI or Magua on the defensive so early, and I do think some of their more recent posts come off as bickering. My main issue with the wagon is that I think a lot of the people on it are simply tired of D1 and are compromising. 59 pages in, this isn't surprising, but I often see this behavior end in a lynch that hasn't been thought out by town. I also think the recent list of reads is poor, and shows minimal effort. Very few town reads, the insistence on SpyreX is strange, as is the need to differentiate between the two heads (I see disagreeing opinions between two heads to be scummy, largely because it makes that slot less responsible for their reads).

@Vi: I believe I'm voting implosion, but I'll do it again.

unvote:vote:implosion

Sort of confused by OS collapse. Things to get from it: 1) Not described as being dead, 2) no role given, 3) Unclear if Apostle's army is another scum team of a 3rd party of sorts. Flavor would suggest 3rd party, but idk how much Vi relied on it for this game. 4) Good catch on the cycle thing; "please hurry" could very well be a warning for us to, well, hurry.

[ToastyToast]

Update: No way I'm voting a claimed masonizer

[ToastyToast]

@MoI: I did but I'm stupid. I didn't see anything about the apostle's army in it, only that we know of two win conditions.

[ToastyToast]

Oh. ty

[ToastyToast]

wtf is with you, UN?
Yeah the Wyrd kill seemed like an odd choice but I agree with Hindu. However, choosing a possible PR over obvtown players is always going to be suspicious.

Implosion could be a SK kill but more likely vig.

Also I'm le tired. So going to take a nappynap.

vote:DDD

for now

[ToastyToast]

@Ludi: did you find Zdeneck scummy or did your read on the slot change only after dana's entrance?

On the one hand I definitely think TSH needs to be challenged a bit, but on the other hand I don't want to make the same mistake as we did with the Quaroath lynch. The votes going on him just seem way too similar.

[ToastyToast]

crap gotta catch up on reading. been playing too much dark souls.

let's see...
um yeah UN is being dumb

no it's not
it's fucking good as fuck because gamma is always scum when i think he's town
and i think he's town

I think I just vomited from seeing too much stupid.

For those voting because of Nexus, is there any reason you are preferring a Nexus lynch over other lurkers? Understand the oman reasons and DDD reasons, but don't really know much on the nexus case.

Likewise the odds that all 6 of those players who are unflipped being Town are ZERO. Of course I’d peg Singer as one. Maybe DDD at current state of affairs. And kiss any Gamma Town reads this head had previously goodbye.

I agree for the most part, but have also wondered if the vote was simply due to people being frustrated. The day was dragging on, and people wanted a lynch. I definitely think there were scum on the Quilford wagon. People I can see getting frustrated as town and going for a lynch would be Glork, Wyrd, Gamma. DDD is probs my best guess for scum on the Quilford wagon.

@MoI: Do you think it is scummier for someone to suggest a lynch (Alchemist) than to just hop on one?

And honestly I'm still so confused by the Ludi lynchers and don't really want to read through how gigantic all the posts on that mater are. Also, anyone voting Ludi because of a lack of content....yeah, no.

I assume you mean Quilford, also. What do you mean by similar? I was pushing him all day yesterday, and the other two votes are by people I have pretty good town reads on. I'm not sure what the problem you're seeing here is.

Statement was more of a "We should really avoid repeating our mistakes" and not meant to specifically address you. I don't want a quicklynch, and if we go after lurkers again we need to figure out why one is scummier than the other. I don't see much of that for TSH(other than some of his votes) or Nexus.

[ToastyToast]

crap gotta catch up on reading. been playing too much dark souls.

let's see...
um yeah UN is being dumb

no it's not
it's fucking good as fuck because gamma is always scum when i think he's town
and i think he's town

I think I just vomited from seeing too much stupid.

For those voting because of Nexus, is there any reason you are preferring a Nexus lynch over other lurkers? Understand the oman reasons and DDD reasons, but don't really know much on the nexus case.

Likewise the odds that all 6 of those players who are unflipped being Town are ZERO. Of course I’d peg Singer as one. Maybe DDD at current state of affairs. And kiss any Gamma Town reads this head had previously goodbye.

I agree for the most part, but have also wondered if the vote was simply due to people being frustrated. The day was dragging on, and people wanted a lynch. I definitely think there were scum on the Quilford wagon. People I can see getting frustrated as town and going for a lynch would be Glork, Wyrd, Gamma. DDD is probs my best guess for scum on the Quilford wagon.

@MoI: Do you think it is scummier for someone to suggest a lynch (Alchemist) than to just hop on one?

And honestly I'm still so confused by the Ludi lynchers and don't really want to read through how gigantic all the posts on that mater are. Also, anyone voting Ludi because of a lack of content....yeah, no.

I assume you mean Quilford, also. What do you mean by similar? I was pushing him all day yesterday, and the other two votes are by people I have pretty good town reads on. I'm not sure what the problem you're seeing here is.

Statement was more of a "We should really avoid repeating our mistakes" and not meant to specifically address you. I don't want a quicklynch, and if we go after lurkers again we need to figure out why one is scummier than the other. I don't see much of that for TSH(other than some of his votes) or Nexus.

[ToastyToast]

ummm sry Vi. plz delete double post.


ALso, I'm still voting DDD and don't know why my name is crossed out in vote count

Vote:DDD

[ToastyToast]

LLD is pretty obviously town. I got that read a while back when I was looking into who to vote. On the surface she's excellent but then you read the posts and suddenly you go "aw fuck I suck at this game".

How is LLD obvtown? I understand town but what exactly did she do to get such a positive read from you.

In other news, I'm 2 for 2 on scum and quite proud it.

[ToastyToast]

I found DDD's conversation with SpyreX a town-tell, perhaps not as strong as most of my other town-reads but still fairly strong.

Similarly, where can this conversation be found?

[ToastyToast]

If this is going to be a Nexus-Oman day, then I'm going to have to

Unvote:Vote:Oman

Just looking through the two ISO's, I think Oman has done scummier things compared to Nexus' straight up lazy lurking. Also Ike claim is too much and too risky. Think about it this way: if scum need to take out certain people/nations or whatever, Ike is probably going to be a target. And the protection claim furthers that chance.

@Nexus: Why did you decide to protect MoI?

[ToastyToast]

Ike as a doctor? Not sure that makes much sense. It makes even less sense that he would be a doctor who protects Crimeans specifically.

protect is vague. And I think it makes sense lorewise. Ike is a mercenary who gets hired to protect royalty and ends up being the head of its army.

[ToastyToast]

still here. still think oman over nexus. I'll talk later

[ToastyToast]

well, a DDD wagon finally happens and now I'm hesitant because it just built up so damn fast.

[ToastyToast]

well, a DDD wagon finally happens and now I'm hesitant because it just built up so damn fast.

People have been pushing for fast wagons/lynches literally all game and now that one's finally happens 100 FUCKING PAGES IN you're actually questioning

WHY

???

Umm I've pretty much been against every fast lynch. Where have you been? Oh, thats right. Voting for yourself.

Nikanor soft claims guilty result on DDD via a vote and some words

I don't remember Nika soft-claiming this at all. Even if he did, it'd probs be a part of his usual gambit tactics (which I can't stand but isn't scummy).

[ToastyToast]

lol
I mean, really, what risk of any fast lynches

were

there to be against?
It was pretty obvious we were getting antsy for a quicker lynch than 50 pages, and because DDD's name came up against literally almost every wagon, it wasn't surprising that people were ready to go.
Tell me, would you have been this hesitant if the same thing happened to Oman based on being the equally large counter-wagon from yesterday?

? Now I'm confused. First you ask me why I'm questioning the DDD quick wagon and not ones that happened earlier, and now you are saying that there was no risks of a quick lynch?

Yeah, people get antsy. And when people get antsy they get stupid. I do find it surprising when people were unwilling to do a DDD lynch yesterday (I don't think he ever got more than 4 votes) and then are overwhelmingly willing to the next day.

I would be more hesitant if there were a Oman quick-wagon today because 1) I think the fact that Nexus was scum lowers the chance that he is scum considerably and 2) DDD is still significantly higher on my scum-list. I just find it odd when people pile onto a wagon as soon as the thread opens. This doesn't really change my view on him but I want at least a claim and some defense from DDD before a lynch occurs. Going from a 100 page debate over who to get lynched to a 3 page debate is just stupid.

@Tierce: why do you think Sephiran is an SK? It says he was alligned with Begnion. Roles don't flip, but I thought allignments were pretty clear.

[ToastyToast]

V/LA until Thursday

[ToastyToast]

Also, I'm with MoI on the Tammy wagon.

vote:DDD

[ToastyToast]

IMPORTANT

I am 90% sure that LLD is town based on nighttime schenanigans. I'd rather not extrapolate unless you all deem it necessary. It sucks that I was V/LA though because I know why she got a "no action" response.

also,

vote:UN

for his super shady night actions.

[ToastyToast]

roleblocked katsuki.

Did you claim town roleblocker earlier or something? I can't find.

[ToastyToast]

He did.

since I just slipped to high hell might as well say

targetted tammy n2, avenging angel n1

Then I'm counterclaiming because I'm a roleblocking neighborizer and highly doubt that town has two roleblockers. It's a day ability so unfortunately I've only had one action (D1 I forgot and D3 I was V/LA). Day 2 I neighborized/roleblocked LLD.

unvote:vote:Alchemist

[ToastyToast]

eh... this is interesting.
I see no motivation from alchemist as scum outing the rb info on me though if he were scum...

Town Roleblocker fake claim? Why did Alchemist reveal his role in the first place?

@kanye: I am generally of the opinion that anyone who claims roleblocker should be lynched before endgame. So yes, out of principle I am opposed to that idea. We only have night chat and not much was discussed. I didn't mention it because at the time I thought I was blocking scum, but SpyreX happenings confirm otherwise.

[ToastyToast]

I'd still be okay with a UN lynch but Alchemist has dropped down to the bottom of my list. Here's the thing though. Andrius helped with this game, and I know he hates the roleblockers almost as much as I do. It would make a lot more sense to me if Alchemist was a jailkeeper or something, but I suppose my ability can be considered some sort of nerfed jailkeeper role. I know Vi games are usually powerheavy, but having to many roleblockers can really fuck up game balance, so I'm doubtful. Urgh I don't know, let me think about switching back to UN.

PEDIT: alright, post ignored.

[ToastyToast]

unvote:vote:UN

yeah, he's just digging himself into a hole at this point.

L-1

[ToastyToast]

I targeted Benmage, but I got an odd response. It didn't work but I have no idea if its because of a roleblock or something else. The response suggests it was something else.

[ToastyToast]

oh hey toast
can you ask Vi if just the neighborization failed or if the roleblock did too? kind of expecting a <can't tell you that> answer but it wouldn't hurt to ask.

I think its both but I just asked her. In any case I think Benmage or GI are our best bets.

Also, I was trying to think of a way to explain Vi's post without copying, so I guess the best way to say it is that the situation was too intimidating, so my character backed off from trying.

[ToastyToast]

Alright so I checked with Vi and it turns out the message I received was only referring to a failed neighborizer.

Which means

vote:Benmage

is better. Getting a message that says he's too intimidating to neigborize AND the lack of a kill means he's just as viable if not moreso than Grey.

[ToastyToast]

Yeah I did miss a lot, hadn't read the thread yet but I'm comfortable with GI lynch (even though I'm not actually head over heels for Alchemist either).
Yes, I sent in my role action so its all good.

[ToastyToast]

Thanks Vi for locking the thread so that my long post got deleted.

Because I have a hard time believing the scum would have anything to do with lynching one of their last partners if not THE last partner they had.

-They would if it would clear them (cough Alchemist cough)
-I said that I was 100% willing to vote and lynch GreyICE. I still think Benmage is scum and was an equally viable lynch, and so I voted him temporarily to see GreyIce defense. I didn’t have to vote GreyICE, because enough other people agreed he was scummy.

Duplicity never got a kill off - he was blocked.

How do you know this? I assumed that Duplicity was the person with the Daykill.

Other problems: He's "forgotten" or "couldn't" to action TWICE. 2 unaccounted roleblocks. Which is just silly when you think about it.

Umm, it makes plenty of sense and isn’t silly. I WAS V/LA for one of them. Get that into your thick head. And I’ve never had a day ability. When reading the role PM, I missed the day part and thought it was a night action—one in which I would roleblock my target and get a Neighborhood with them in the day time.

He CC'd to earn town cred and appear active. Simple. Hint: he really is only active when he is prompted, not a good sign. He was also trying to setup a possible mislynch on me so they wouldn't have to deal with an NK. Scum tend to try that with me. It never works, woe to them. He's in sync with the spirit of Nexus.

Not true. Nexus posted what? 3 times? I posted plenty, and have never been prodded. I’ve continued posting throughout the game, whether or not I was prompted to do so. Saying so is a complete lie. If prompted, I'll say more--thats the only way your statement is close to the truth. It may not be as long or as aggressive as you’d like, but that's not really how I play. I’ll be active when I want to be. And yeah, I’m a defensive player. Also typical threat is typical.

Unnecessary CC much?

Not at all. I have a strong dislike for all roleblockers and still think its incredibly unlikely to have two. However, the people who were like “VI meta” convinced me.

He roleblocked LLD because she was heavily hinting at role knowledging concerning Nikanor. Yea, roleblock that cop good! ^_^

I roleblocked LLD because she was on my scum list. I don’t even remember this. This is a very fallacious argument. You are 1) assuming that I read every single post in this game thoroughly, 2) assuming that I’m scum before looking at certain events 3) assuming that everyone notices crumbs (they’re hints for a reason), 4) ignoring the fact that I have acted according to my suspicions throughout this game.

Now, for your wagon analysis, which completely sucks out and ignores anything that ACTUALLY HAPPENED during the wagon.
Day 1:First of all, I’m am utterly pissed off that you shrug off the implosion wagon as a “weak bus.” I got that whole fucking wagon started.
Also, Remember that Schmugen was another one of my major suspicions, and he went missing D2.

Day 2: I think you can all agree with me that the Oman and Nexus lynch was between two useless players who hadn’t done anything prior. The reason I voted Oman over Nexus was because he had said a few stupid things in addition to being useless. Also, by taking only the final Vote count, you are missing the fact that many more people were on the Oman wagon and switched to Nexus for the lynch. By showing the final part, you make it seem like Oman was nowhere near a lynch at all during that day.

Day 3: I WAS GONE YOU ASS. Ugh.

Day 4: UN was really fuckin scummy and you voted him for the same reasons.

Day 5: I like how you call it “most damning” when you yourself think Benmage is a likely scum. Day 5, I said that I was willing to vote GreyICE but also thought Benmage was equally viable given that I blocked him. So, we had two people blocked.

Also, some other things. Given that my actions is a Day ability, I highly doubt you actually blocked me. Also, I got a result from targeting Benmage, and it was the same as the result Day 5. That being “TOO INTIMIDATING TO GET CLOSE,” but Vi says that the statement refers to a failed neighborize, NOT roleblock. And roleblocking a roleblocker always has some sort of complicated issues with it.

So yeah, no.

Also, its pretty obvious you aren’t Sanaki, else Vi wouldn’t have “killed” her off.

Scum is Benmage, which is why there was no kill.

vote:Benmage

[ToastyToast]

Oh, and tonight because I blocked him again

[ToastyToast]

@Alchemist: It was a gambit, which is fine given that it pretty much confirmed the GreyICE lynch. I think you are second most likely next to Benmage.
The reason why I think you are secondmost is basically because you are in the absolute perfect position for solo scum at this point. You can roleblock whoever you think is scum, and say "there was no kill because I roleblocked *insert name here*" and lead to pretty much any lynch because of the Sanaki claim, which at the surface seems to have confirmed you. However, Vi wouldn't literally kill off Sanaki if she was still in the game. The Ike and Sanaki claims both feel like Vi gave those claims to the scum team, so why would she put the actual role in the game?

This is all theory, however, because even with such a strategy it would ultimately come back to bite you in the ass once the people you block start flipping town. And thats why Ben is considerably more likely. I mean "scum who got roleblocked" sounds much more reliable than "scum who didn't kill so he could say he roleblocked someone else who was unable to perform the kill"

I already explained why my action still would've gone through. I don't think a night-roleblocker can block a day power.

@VI: How does roleblocking hierarchy work in this game?

btw who blocked scum last night Toasty? Me or you?

Well I blocked Benmage so...

[ToastyToast]

Meh

@VI: How does roleblocking hierarchy work in this game?

[ToastyToast]

Our role confirms Sanaki is in the game. So stop the jibberjabber ToastyScum.

Vote: ToastyToast

Then its Ben.

[ToastyToast]

@Ben: Why doesn't my neighborize work on you?

[ToastyToast]

http://fireemblem.wikia.com/wiki/Vika

Can someone who has played the game offer more insight? Because this is Ben's flavorclaim apparently. Which I missed.

She is...quiet.

[ToastyToast]

toasty's night actionz;
n1; lel forgot woops
n2; targeted da cop cuz she scummy xD
n3; on holiday yo
n4; o shit partner was blocked better go for obvscum benmage
n5; have to stay on benmage its my only hope

How many times do you want me to explain this? Its ridiculous. If you really had a problem with it why didn't you say anything?
Forgetting an action D1 really isn't that bad, and I think town would be more likely to forget. LLD WAS NOT A CONFIRMED COP and she did not say she was a cop when I used my action on her. I targeted her because with my list of scum-reads at that time, LLD was under the least amount of pressure and thus would have been most likely to make the scum kill. Instead it flipped my read on her. I was gone night three and the fact that you keep trying to use that against me demonstrates the bad parts of your case. So do your interpretations of my alleged thought process behind day four and day five. If you blocked and saw no kill, and also were unable to neighborize them for some reason, would you just ignore it? Is it not reasonable that I would try the same thing again? And the fact that you yourself call benmage obvscum means you truly are just reading into this way too much. If you think he's scum, I blocked scum, and there was no kill, that should be enough. But no. Because you are on your high-horse and want everyone to vote your way, you ignore it and shrug it off as "toasty making some desperate scumplay." You're just getting obnoxious now.

If Benmage by some miracle is not the last scum: For night actions, I will target Rhinox (claimed VT) in order to confirm neighborize for you. Assuming Alchemist blocks me, we can also figure out if my day action can get roleblocked. In addition, LLD can use her nation thing on me.

[ToastyToast]

Nggh. Yes. We wait. But wtf. Want lynch want lynch want lynch.

UNVOTE: Benmage

Vika is a Raven. Ravens are from KILVAS. It should be purple.

She isn't a soldier from Kilvas though. She roams around with the fire mage kid and friends. They are a laguz-human band of "outlaws." her background is never explained but being a crow means her heritage is from Kilvas, not that she is from Kilvas or alligned with them.

[ToastyToast]

@Alchemist: Even if you think I'm scum, you should be okay with this plan. By blocking me, it would force no night kill for two reasons. From your view, if I am scum then blocking me should stop the kill. From my view, blocking me would mean scum will choose not to kill, as your case provides them with another mislynch. At the same time, it allows me to confirm my actions and abilities and controls my roleblock. Lastly, lynching Benmage will get rid of your other suspect. So why are you so steadfast against this?

[ToastyToast]

@Alchemist: Even if you think I'm scum, you should be okay with this plan. By blocking me, it would force no night kill for two reasons. From your view, if I am scum then blocking me should stop the kill. From my view, blocking me would mean scum will choose not to kill, as your case provides them with another mislynch. At the same time, it allows me to confirm my actions and abilities and controls my roleblock. Lastly, lynching Benmage will get rid of your other suspect. So why are you so steadfast against this?

Wrong. Nice wifom.

its not wifom lol. Under your logic of blocking my kill, blocking me again means there should be no kill. In addition, the real scum will withold a kill in order to get me lynched, so you can say "OH LOOK I BLOCKED TEH KIL."

Wifom is "well, if I were scum I'd..." this is "let me prove my role and you essentailly get 100% control over what I do,

and

you get to lynch your other suspect." And if I'm wrong about Benmage, I can confirm I'm not lying about my role.

[ToastyToast]

@Glork: Not from any of those countries.

Also, pretty pissed off. Didn't get to use my action

again

. will post in a sec but cake first

[ToastyToast]

Umm...you didn't think to counterclaim? Well, this at least for me suggests that one of the country cops is a scum. I mean, if scum need to kill specific people, and we suspect that this is country related, it makes a lot of sense for them to have a country cop.

So LLD and DDD are now my prime suspects.

[ToastyToast]

>.>

Who did you rb btw toasty?

couldn't exactly get a day action in when three people decided to get themselves modkilled nowhere near a lynch.

[ToastyToast]

Toasty can also die for being no-kill-blocked and useless (I don't care about modkills, you should submit at the start of the day and change if necessary).

I would've blocked Benmage, so it wouldn't matter anyways.

@Glork: Are your DDD/me suspicions based entirely on my abilities?

@Hindu: the fact that you are voting someone other than two claimed country cops is blegh. Even if you think Nika is scum, would it not make more sense to clear this obvious dilemma? Do you think two country cops on town side is at all likely?

Also, I am okay with Glork's plan. Will put power on now so no one fucks up.

[ToastyToast]

Oh.

Vote:DDD

[ToastyToast]

I found the idea of two town country cops plausible with lots of unknowns still in play when there were lots of possible false positives and negative as an option and the fact that Vi isn’t afraid to design against site meta. Furthermore, if LLD got killed that would’ve solved the problem for me and I figured there was little to no chance of me dying during the night so I could always claim later.

Sorry for triple post.
This is a game that involves scum targetting/killing specific people/roles. So yeah, there could be two country cops on town side but that makes no sense if this is a scum win condition. I have a hard time believing Vi would be like "derp teh scum need to know countries so imma give two country cops to town but not to scum lololol." And yeah, there's not going to be three country cops either.

[ToastyToast]

@Nikanor: Both Alchemist and I were claimed roleblockers, and as such I can see scum withholding the kill for that very reason. By with-holding the kill, it puts suspicion on two players,

and

turns the roleblockers against one another.

I also think your logic on "well, if Gamma was scum he definitely would've made the kill" is wrong for the above reason. Also, just because one scum is more town than the other does not necessarily mean they made the kill. And couldn't I say the same thing? The day of the GreyICE lynch, and the day before, I was viewed more townish than he.

[ToastyToast]

Like, I really don't think lynching one of LLD/DDD should be what we do today. I just don't and I can't really explain why.

You've gotten quite convincing there.

@Tammy and Tierce: Really guys? No one in this game wants to read all that bickering. If you want me to read the cases you have on each other then please just lay it out in simple bullet point format. Its just looking like a back and forth OMGUS

Can we just go with Glorks plan? If DDD doesn't flip scum, we'd still clear a lot of things up. And yes, I realize that I am implicated with the Alchemist roleblock and such but I really feel clearing up LLD/DDD will give us the win.

[ToastyToast]

26. ToastyToast - RB and Neighbourizer - been blocked on 2 nights of NKs (I think?) - strange CC to Alch though. Hmm.

No, only one. How was my CC strange?

@Whoever said they suspected TSH: Why?

Upon considering other options, I realized we haven't discussed the turned to stone thing. From flavor, the only person who turns others to stone in the game is Queen Ashera, the Goddess of Order lady. She's the main villain (other than SK sephiran dude). She also is not aligned with Daein. Possible second third party instead of last scum?

The Queens sister is alligned with Daein, and is basically Micaiah in beast mode. Not sure if she would have same "stone Glork" powers.

Just a thought about who we're looking for.

[ToastyToast]

@Gamma: Glork being turned to stone by scumbuddy seems odd for numerous reasons. 1) Glork was probably most vocal at the time of the stoning 2)We don't even know if scum would be able to target a buddy with a power like this. They usually can't--at least from my experience 3) The Day-ability thing is largely speculation

[ToastyToast]

@Glork: I have sent my action in on LLD, but there is nothing that says I can't change it. Also, I have considered the two of them throughout the day and feel LLD used her power in a much more protown way. She copped Spy and claimed because she had no result, and thought it was suspicious that UN didn't have a result either. This is a protown action, much more protown than waiting until today.

[ToastyToast]

@Glork: I have sent my action in on LLD, but there is nothing that says I can't change it. Also, I have considered the two of them throughout the day and feel LLD used her power in a much more protown way. She copped Spy and claimed because she had no result, and thought it was suspicious that UN didn't have a result either. This is a protown action, much more protown than waiting until today.

As scum, "confirming" information that will lead to a mislynch is something a player would gladly do. I don't see how LLD claiming her Spyre result is

only

a protown move. Do you have a specific reason you think she would NOT claim her Spyre result as scum there?

I think scum would've thought Spy was a third party/other scum, hence the lack of a nation. Its not the only thing LLD has done as protown--she's been generally informative and just better. In comparison to DDD, who I thought was scum early, and only stopped because he was apparently obvtown at some point (although I can't quite remember why). His claim just brings me back to his scummy behavior.

[ToastyToast]

@DDD: But don't you think the fact that dana has a similar cop power makes it ever

less

likely that both you and LLD are town? It makes no logical sense to me to have 3 "country cop" type roles in the game, and have all of them alligned with town, especially in this game.

[ToastyToast]

I think it should be more of dana vs. DDD vs. LLD, but dana's power is a lot like mine--a somewhat nerfed/warped version of another powerful role that is already in the game.

[ToastyToast]

@LLD: how am I likely to be a DDD buddy? Like, I understand if you think the RB implicates me, but as DDD's buddy?

[ToastyToast]

Pretty sure that wasn't a restriction. I recall reading that she said she couldn't commute in consecutive PHASES?

Scum would not have known this until Tammy said it. She did said so after the two-night-in-a-row no kill.

[ToastyToast]

Just to keep in this, I still think DDD is the better lynch. I'm going to read over what people said about LLD, but meh. Also, Olympics. My fake internet life may die a bit.

[ToastyToast]

Toasty, please keep us posted on who you're roleblocking.

Its all taken care of, if either LLD or DDD are lynched. So don't worry.

[ToastyToast]

Darn it. So who exactly was the fifth target? I really thought we were safe, even if the DDD lynch didn't work, since I was blocking LLD.

This was by no means one of my best game, but I'm actually pretty proud of myself that I was able to survive and get quite a few scum right. Being "out of practice" for so long lead me to believe that I was screwed and going to be the first lynch D1, but I managed to keep myself alive. I knew if I was going to stop people from lynching me in my town position I would sort of have to play like scum (retreating through the midgame, not challenging D2 so much--I thought there were better people to lynch). Unfortunately, I think I retreated too much and kept too quiet, sort of just letting other lynches happen. (but at least my reads were good)

Ultimately LLD got me though. Her honesty during the SpyreX thing kind of sold me, but I think that if I hadn't felt so guilty about that lynch, I would have been more prone to move my vote.

[ToastyToast]

Oh yeah, and triple modkill sucked so bad

[ToastyToast]

I said Daein in that? I know he's Crimean. Oops.
POWER OF EVIL. The damn Benmage fails threw me off so hard.

[ToastyToast]

people on DDD at the end: stern looks if disapproval

Yeah because DDD was

clearly

town. If you were alive you would've voted for me and had sephiran win.

[ToastyToast]

That's the one that will always make my head hurt:

DDD was clearly town.

I know I didn't have a great game and voices of the dead etc, etc but DDD getting lynched over LLD will not ever make sense to me.

He gave his role info at a bad time, failed to realize that a cop clearly had to be scum, and quite frankly I was surprised he lasted so long. I don't see how people thought he was town. If you can point to something to show me how, than by all means do so because I can look for it in the future. But, in a DDD vs. LLD thing, LLD came off as more town. Maybe I'm just more used to LLD or like her playing style more.

In any case, I know I should've looked at LLD more. Honestly, I kind of came into the last day just barely preferring the DDD lynch but not really caring about who of the two ended up lynched because I thought we'd have at least one more day. So poor play on my part. I just don't like people coming in here and act like they had no part in the end result and post that they are "disappointed."

[ToastyToast]

show off

I want to show off too! My bottom 6 in my early giant list post:
DDD, Implosion, Quilford, Schmugen, GreyICE, LLD.4/6. Not bad.