In the Court of the Gods (Game Over)

[Fishythefish]

I'm going to leave the deadline in place for now. I don't think long deadlines are always good. I will extend it only if I think it will actually do us good.

I think the best obvious use for godhood is to collect claims of information PRs. If a cop etc. is my priest, they can claim their result through me. If they claim through the evil god, that can't be any worse than claiming to the game as a whole.

Since the scum were randomly assigned after the priests were, there is no possible correlation there. Whatever we see in terms of flips, it's never more likely to find scum in one group than another. All the numbers flying around either say this, or are bad maths - applying the same logic to any arbitrary division of the players makes this clearer.

VOTE: Me=Weird

[Fishythefish]

Somewhat related to what, exactly?

Thinking about the powers of my fellow Gods, I think we should be controlling DGB. I do not want scum getting immunity from anything. I suggest DGB gives immunity, near the end of the day, by popular vote - this doesn't hurt us secrecywise, as she has to do so publicly anyway, and it vastly improves our odds if DGB is town. I'd be happy to turn over my power as well if necessary (seems only fair).

NS's power is a bit weird, and not very dangerous - we can always just revote on the wagon. I see no circumstance in wish we'd wish to control it.

Thoughts?

[Fishythefish]

You can only grant it every 4 days. I should really read those role PMs more carefully.

You have a power which, if wielded properly, benefits the town. If you are scum, it seriously hurts the town if you use it unilaterally. Its target is declared publicly. It seems to me a no-brainer that you should be controlled by the town.

[Fishythefish]

I don't understand why you are making a big deal out of it. I can't even prevent a NK on a townie because the "protect" is a public one, so the scum can mow down some other townie. How could it hurt the town if I use it unilaterally? Even the worse possible scenario that I PUBLICLY protect a scumbag... from a NK... every 4 nights.

Why don't you look for scum instead, this is IIoA.

That's fair, actually. Not that important.

[Fishythefish]

I see no evidence that Jack is scum. Nothing he has done is better explained by scumJack than townJack, given his meta. I can't say I find his gambits fun or useful - I think they are divisive in a way that doesn't divide town from scum - but it's something he does as town.

VOTE: Zang

[Fishythefish]

No! My awesome powers have failed me! (

@mod: edit tags please?)

[Fishythefish]

Here's a relevant game for people who haven't seen Jack's silly gambits:

http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.ph ... &start=650.

[Fishythefish]

@Feysal: that is not the gambit I meant. I meant Jack's early game silly play. He answered some early questions by copying and pasting other answers, and appeared to softclaim SK.

I'd say the best thing to do with Jack's gambit here is totally ignore it.

[Fishythefish]

I think that NS is the Evil God right now. The attitude of "I'd OMGUS Jack but he's no danger" is just horrible.

As for people we can actually lynch, I'm not really feeling any of the scumreads going around right now.

VOTE: Andrius

Many posts, little content. His way of pushing the Jack wagon - with the odd post against him - is much scummier than tmh's. tmh seems to believe a lot more in the wagon.

[Fishythefish]

I'm suspicious of LLL. I would have thought that someone who was pretty convinced herself that Jack's gambit was scummy, and retains some of that suspicion, wouldn't be as quick to attack TMH over his attitude to Jack. It's an unnatural pair of targets, whatever she thinks about Jack.

[Fishythefish]

@DRK: where are you?

[Fishythefish]

@Fishy: Does LLL = Lady Lambdadelta? (Post 299)[/b][/color]

Yeah, I just got carried away with the Ls.

To reiterate what I said there: LLD going after Jack and tmh at the same time feels wrong to me - if you think Jack is scummy, I don't see how you could fail to understand tmh's position. As Equinox notes, this just seems like a lie:

I stayed on Jack because I was convinced he was scum, until I started to see what people (namely you) were talking about with reference to the gambit. Since the Gambit was outed, Jack has started to play more like a townie, so I dropped him.

If you recall, I had been suspicious of the way TMH handled his case on Jack, even going as far as to FoS him for tunnelling (I was still voting Jack, because I was still under the impression that his motives were scummy.)

The scum motivation for TMH tunneling Jack was that Jack seemed to be a rather easy lynch at the time. Just use a LAL policy and go under the claim of "this will provide the most info" and you have your case on Jack. What makes him scummy is that now that the Jack case has died, and it is no longer a easy lynch, TMH seems to be slinking off it. He is slowly backing off.

LLD really didn't just drop Jack like that. She continued to FoS him while going after TMH - which feels like an attempt to withdraw slowly from her read. This post attempts to brush that under the carpet.

LLD says TMH attacked Jack, and slunk off when he stopped being a difficult lynch. Sounds good, but that's just not true. TMH attacked Jack for a long time after Jack stopped looking like a likely lynch, with no obvious scum benefit.

VOTE: LLD

[Fishythefish]

@farside:
1. You said you always found me scummy. That made me think that it wasn't massively game relevant, and so I asked in the QT (your answers were actually more specific to this game than I expected from your post in the thread). Also, I wanted to get a conversation going in there.
2. I am chatting to all my followers to varying extents. I don't intend to make any reads from my QTs public until it becomes a good idea (ie. they are being wagonned, or I have a decently strong scumread on them). I think there is more to be gained by waiting.

[Fishythefish]

@farside: yes.

[Fishythefish]

I am also suspicious of Spyrex (as I've mentioned in a couple of QTs). The main thing is just that he's done very little, which isn't something I associate with townSpyrex. Most of his posting has been talking about Jack/NS, which is the easiest thing in the game to come up with an opinion on.

@Spyrex, Andrius: who is scum?

@LLD: do you have any response to my 345?

[Fishythefish]

@LLD: AFAIC, you answered one of my points in conversation with Equinox - saying that your suspicion of tmh wasn't for attacking Jack, but for tunnelling ridiculously on Jack. Which doesn't convince me; the point you believed in against Jack were

incredibly

damning - they pretty much guaranteed he was lying. From that, tunnelling on Jack makes total sense, and Fossing TMH for that doesn't.

If you have responded to my points that you lied about when you stopped going after Jack, and on TMH withdrawing from Jack when it was convenient, I can't find it. Please link?

[Fishythefish]

@LLD: Your case against TMH is that he was tunnelling on Jack - not looking at other players - and later that he slid off Jack as soon as it became convenient. The first would make total sense to a player who was saying what you were saying on Jack at the time - these are consecutive posts from you:

If we boil this down, and simplify everything, the facts still say that one of NS and Jack is lying.

So it's logical to lynch the one we CAN lynch, and garner knowledge this way, correct?

Pretty much the only thing we can do today is lynch Jack

. I don't see anyway to move forward without resolving this glaring inconsistency and since we can't lynch NS we pretty much have to lynch Jack. Besides that, the way I'm seeing the situation, it's a lot more likely that Jack is the one lying, I can see motivation and a means for that at least where I can't with NS.

No.

FoS: TMH

I don't think these are likely stances to go together. Your own arguments made Jack a totally logical person to attack, and even to attack exclusively. If you believed the first post, I struggle to see how you could also believe the second.

Your point second point about tmh - that he moved off Jack when it became convenient - is a clear misrepresentation of what actually happened.

I think you misunderstand Equi. My understanding is that, like me, he disliked the way you lied about dropping Jack like a hot potato (the bit of his post you were thinking of was sarcastic). You continued to FoS him, without changing your reasons, right up until post 278 - a long time after there had been much talk of his gambitting.

[Fishythefish]

@LLD: where do I say I dislike changing opinions?

It is just fine to think two people are scummy when one is attacking the other. But your posts on Jack conflict with your reasons for thinking TMH scummy. You were attacking TMH for a position that was almost the same as yours; very strongly thinking Jack/NS was important, and Jack should be lynched. It is a hardly a stretch from "the facts say that one of Jack and NS is scum, and NS is unlynchable" to "we should absolutely definitely lynch Jack today", and you simultaneously said the first and criticised TMH for the second.

Obviously, changing your opinion is fine when Jack is shown to have a reason. That's just not what I'm saying - you held these conflicting stances at the same time. My point about changing your opinion on Jack is how you later lied about it - as well as about TMH on Jack - to fit with your narrative.

[Fishythefish]

@LLD: I'm talking about the two quotes in 378 (and related posting, but they summarise it well). Long before you unvoted Jack, let alone stopped actively Fossing him (as in, posting FoS: Jack).

[Fishythefish]

@LLD: I'm talking about the two quotes in 378 (and related posting, but they summarise it well). Long before you unvoted Jack, let alone stopped actively Fossing him (as in, posting FoS: Jack).

Neither of those two quotes show me lying.

The "lying" thing you are talking about comes in a later post, WELL after I have dropped Jack.

Those quotes both come from a time where I suspected Jack. The second one comes from the fact that I suspected BOTH TMH and Jack.

When I unvoted Jack, it was because TMH became more scummy than Jack.

And eventually Jack became a town read for me.

Do you see the progression? I started suspecting Jack for lying. I then also FoS'd TMH for his actions.

I then saw Jack's gambit, but didn't entirely believe it. However, it made Jack less scummy than TMH. I unvoted, and switched their positions on my list and in my votes.

Then when I observed Jack's play, I came to the conclusion he was most likely town (now that he was no longer doing this gambit shit).

So I no longer FoS Jack, and I am happy with my vote on TMH. I am now moving on to investigating Spy, Mina, Zang and Feysal.

Do you see the logical progression? My opinion gradually changed over time. I dropped twice. Once when I unvoted him, and another time when I stopped suspecting him.

Yes, the "lying" thing comes from a while after that. Can you explain that?

On your TMH/Jack suspicions; my problem comes right at the beginning - when you thought Jack was pretty certain to be lying, but suspected TMH for being tunnelled about lynching Jack. I don't think there's much more to say about that; I find those stances together unlikely.

[Fishythefish]

@LLD: I don't intend to argue the point further. If you have addressed my concerns about your misreps (ie. the second half of my iso 11), I am being rather more blind than usual, but either way this argument isn't doing any good.

UNVOTE: VOTE: Andrius

[Fishythefish]

So call this paranoid but here is my thought process:
Fishy created a QT saying that basically he would be not using it as much. It's like he didn't see a point to having a QT if you know what I mean.
He doesn't really use it, which bothers me a bit. I see mina stating she is putting all her thoughts down in the QT to fishy (i had meant to ask fishy what his view on Mina was, not equinox in one post I made) so far he hasn't responded. DGB is doing what I figure a good town player would do with unknown alliances in the QT.
I wonder why Fishy is asking questions in the QT that he should ask in the game, that are things I said in the game. These are my pondering thoughts with Fishy.

I have said why I won't respond to questions about my QTs, and you seemed satisfied with the answer. In my QTs, I'm generally trying to get discussion going (ours is among the worst of mine for that, as it happens). Honestly, I haven't been able to think of much to say to you - and you've hardly been pushing the conversation along. Trying to get things going is the reason I have asked you things there which seemed only marginally interesting in the thread.

Re: DGB/tajo QT. I'd say that tajo's response is a little more likely to come from scum - although his already suspecting DGB lessens that - and the other responses are more likely to come from town. It certainly isn't the cast-iron scumtell DGB is calling it. On the tajo-me link; again, I can see where DGB is coming from, but I disagree with the sense of the conclusion. I suppose this is one to argue if and when tajo flips scum.

[Fishythefish]

EBWOP: I disagree with the *strength* of the conclusion.

[Fishythefish]

@TMH: can you explain your suspicion of me any further than "gut"?

[Fishythefish]

Fishy, is there a reason you haven't answered farside's question about your read on me?

Yes. I think the QTs will be more productive if I don't talk about them in the thread for the time being.

VOTE: DRK

I like the look of this. It's scummy that DRK would only give a scumlist when pushed, but that he then produced a fully formed one. Makes me think it was made to order, rather than being his real opinions.

I'm not 100% up to speed with this game, and my access will be poor this weekend. In fact,

V/LA from Friday until Monday

DEADLINE SET TO SATURDAY FEB 19, 11:59PM GMT

[Fishythefish]

Fishythefish: In what order did you set up your QuickTopics?

I don't know how to find out. I do know that they were all set up within a few minutes, and that yours was first. IIRC, I worked my way down the priest list when setting them up, and then I definitely went up the priest list for posting for the first time (with the exception of a test post in yours).

[Fishythefish]

This is interesting, Fishythefish. Why didn't I get the same message in my QuickTopic?

No particular reason. I posted various things in my first posts, in a not very systematic way.

When I opened the QTs, I didn't think they'd be terribly useful - I thought most things are better said in the thread. I have changed my mind about this to a large extent.

[Fishythefish]

I'm no longer on V/LA. Catching up on a few games, content later tonight.

[Fishythefish]

Fishy why didn't you call Mina out when she mentioned that she was sharing her thoughts in the QT about people?

Mina underestimates the value of her posting in our QT. Particularly during her first catchup, when she posted a lot of her half-baked thoughts there.

Hurry up

Same for Fishy. I want your thoughts on your followers, too.

No.

DRK is quite likely scum. He hasn’t really done anything in the game – when he’s voted, it’s been with little reasoning, and he’s never followed up on anything. Calling this “laziness” doesn’t convince me; it’s not like he seems to be lagging behind the game, just that he’s not trying to catch scum.

But LL is much worse. Really, LL is scum:
Old reasons are her lies about the progression of the reads of tmh and herself on Jack, and a disconnect early in the game between her stance on Jack and her criticism of tmh.

Since we had that argument, LL has been backing the tajo wagon without actually getting on it. And now, with scumreads on DRK and tajo, what does LL do? Votes for Feysal. I just can’t see a townie in that situation deciding to go for a wagon she

hasn’t even read the target of

when her first two scumreads have their own perfectly good wagons. It feels like she’s totally forgotten she voiced a scumread on DRK.

Read LL in iso. I can’t see her actions in this game as coming from town. She was happy to concentrate on NS/Jack/TMH for a long time, in a way that doesn’t make sense. Since then, she’s pushed a popular wagon (tajo) without voting for it, voiced an unexplained scumread on another popular wagon (DRK), and finally voted a third player, admitting that she doesn’t actually have a reason for that. She says she's doing that for pressure so she can get some reads. Firstly, saying that nullifies any pressure from the vote. Secondly, if we believe LL she already

has

plenty of reads.

Preview edit:
@DGB: why on earth do you think LL is town? I don't see anything townish about her.

UNVOTE: VOTE: LLD

[Fishythefish]

Can you try misrepping me harder Fishy?

"She voted someone and admitted she had no reason for doing it".

How about to apply pressure? To get a fuckig wagon started? To get some kind of discussion going that isn't hitting a brick wall.

You totally ignore all the reasons I places that vote, just to twist it to your agenda.

You are the scum god. I'm convinced.

When I say no reason, I mean that you didn't find him scummy.

You have said that DRK (with tajo, tmh) is one of your top scumreads. I don't see how on earth you could want to start a wagon on someone you have no read on, without ever commenting on the DRK wagon or even thinking about voting him. It makes no sense.

[Fishythefish]

Fishy probably is the scum god.

Reasons?

[Fishythefish]

That simply doesn't address my point.

What do you think of DRK?

[Fishythefish]

UNVOTE: LLDVOTE: DRK

I think DRK is much scummier than Feysal here. Feysal's play fits well with someone who has never really got to grips with the game, with either alignment. LLD's points are factually accurate - Feysal hasn't committed to anything much, makes long posts, and doesn't make many posts, but I don't see that any of that makes him scum.

I'm also thinking that an LLD/DRK scumteam is hugely likely here. LLD voices suspicion of DRK here and here, but despite a great big wagon on DRK never votes him or expands on this? I can't see any motivation for that other than avoiding the wagon of a scumbuddy.

[Fishythefish]

Feysal as town gets to grips with the game right away, even when replacing in.

You thought drk was scum in ISO 24.

Scum god voting competing wagon.

unvote, vote:Feysal

Yes, I did. I still do.

I'm really not the scum god. Why do you think I am?

[Fishythefish]

Unless I'm much mistaken, deadline has gone back as far as I push it.

[Fishythefish]

DRK feels way more like a scumlynch than Feysal here. Aside from the fact that he's scummier, the voting patterns really point towards it. DRK has had a decent wagon for a long time, which has never quite got the momentum for a lynch. Feysal's wagon sprung up extremely quickly, and that fits well with it being a scumdriven attempt to save DRK.

FMPOV, it's also interesting that the scumgod is definitely on the Feysal wagon. That's one player who would definitely be trying to avoid a scumlynch, and Feysal gets automatic townpoints for that.

[Fishythefish]

DGB, Mina, Equinox, corvuus, npau:

We want a lynch. First, we want a claim. You need to be voting Feysal or (preferably) DRK, asap.

[Fishythefish]

Access note: I'm not going to be around much tomorrow or Saturday. I'll check in (and be able to vote if necessary), but not much more.

[Fishythefish]

The deadline can be extended no further; its a maximum of 19 days from the beginning of the day.

[Fishythefish]

My priests have messages waiting in their QTs.

I'm somewhat behind this game; that will be sorted out in the next few hours.

[Fishythefish]

OK. Have some reads:

Definitely Town

Andrius
Equinox
LB

DGB

Probably Town

Feysal
DTM

Null

Hito
NPAU
farside
Corvuus
Jack

Probably Scum

Benmage
tajo

Definitely Scum

Nobody Special

Benmage

He didn’t do much yesterday. When Corvuus replaced in, he backtracked on his TMH read, deciding that TMH’s “scummy and illogical” play was due to TMH being a bad player rather than scum; I don’t see what changed then to make BM change his mind – looks like he needed an excuse to change wagon. People seem to like his last post, but I disagree. It’s got a decent reason to suspect tajo, but the Jack scumread looks like padding. It’s hard to believe he finds DTM misremembering a game they were in together that significant. He throws out a few townreads that are basically gut. All in all, it looks like scum trying to look like they have something to say, without actually bothering to fake any opinions properly. The self-vote I don’t really know what to make of.

tajo

I think it’s a big deal that tajo isn’t posting much in his QT. From the sounds of it, DGB is pushing conversation in her QTs hard. DGB is obviously town. Not talking to her is something scum have much more reason to do than town. From his day 1, I find it really odd that he’d call Feysal obvscum but never really looked like he was seriously considering a Feysal vote after the wagon got going. Now he’s quietly dropped that read. What changed, tajo?

NS

Right. I’m totally certain NS is the scumgod. For me, that’s just obvious; DGB is town here, and I know I’m town. I think we’re at the point where DGB’s followers have no excuse not to claim to her, and I’d like my followers to think about claiming to me as well, so I’m going to go ahead and make the case on NS. The main thing is this: NS got called scum a lot early in the game. His response? To do practically nothing. NS has avoided giving reads on many players at all. There is a clear scum reason for this; he doesn’t want to drag his team down with him. He’s voted three times, of which one was for a lurker, and done nothing approaching scumhunting.

It’s an odd position. Normally, someone who took as much flak as NS would have had a big wagon on them. He would have to step up the posting to avoid getting lynched. Here, I think his play is a scumtell that’s unique to this game; he knows he doesn’t have to care about what people think of him, so he’s just trying as hard as he can to avoid connections with anyone.

So. I think NS is obvscum, and not just FMPOV. I’d like my priests to claim to me.

[Fishythefish]

Fishy,

All that hitogoroshi BS about people not using the QTS being most likely scum does not make sense at all.

Well, HELLO, assume your god is clearly attacking you of being scum not only in the game thread but also in the QT. How the hell do you want me to use the QT?

Also, DGB has tricked me before so I dont see why you people seem to think you can trust a god, specially when we wont never have a flip from any of the gods. Have you never been wrong before?

About Feysal:

Feysal is improving with the posting but still there is something bothering me about his careful playstyle.

specially her last posts at the end of day 1. her reads were similar to mine.

What is your read on DGB?

Just because reads on gods aren't 100% guaranteed to right doesn't mean we shouldn't act on them. DGB tricking you isn't a reason you'd think she is scum, and is irrelevant to people trusting her.

OK. I still don't like at all how you thought Feysal was scum but barely acknowledged the wagon on him, and together with dropping the read on him that makes me think you never really believed he was the obvscum you called him.

I forgot to
VOTE: Benmage
in my last post.

[Fishythefish]

I dislike Jack in his recent discussions with Equi. Equi's got a fair point on Jack's comments on DTM/BM - that Jack looks like scum who saw a convenient side of the argument and jumped on it. Jack is trying to dismiss that with non-arguments; he said it didn't happen, then he said it was facetious. This evasion is scummy.

FoS: Jack

[Fishythefish]

Equinox gets lynched over my dead body. And I'm immortal.

I'm ready to vote Jack, he needs to claim now

.

More time for better posting tomorrow.

[Fishythefish]

Oh, he's not at L-1.

VOTE: Jack - L-1.

[Fishythefish]

I think DGB is blowing traitor communication absurdly out of proportion. To suppose that we're going to catch all the scum by catching them telling Spyrex they are scum is just ridiculous. All the hints she points out

could

be scum signalling the traitor. But only in the case of Jack's hint is what they're saying in any way weird. That only makes them scummy if you think it likely that all of the scumteam would be shouting out to the traitor. Which I think is very unlikely, even assuming the scumteam knew there even was a traitor - one hint would be plenty to find out his identity.

Also, Equinox and Feysal are town.

[Fishythefish]

VT claim is a good towntell. My priests are very convincing in their Hitohate - enough to make me happy to

UNVOTE: VOTE: Hito

L-1.

[Fishythefish]

VT claim is a good towntell.

Pffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffft

Only for certain circumstances surrounding a VT, not a VT claim in general.

Pretty much any VT claim outside of massclaim, when the claimant has a wagon on them they might be able to derail.

[Fishythefish]

What? A VT claim is a towntell when the claimant has a wagon on them they might be able to derail

by claiming PR

. Precisely because of the Disciples of Lynch All Vanilla Claims.

[Fishythefish]

We seem to be all out of people we're about to lynch. Let's have a Benmage wagon!

UNVOTE: VOTE: Benmage

AGM/Benmage is definitely likely. BM is the scummier of the two - see this post. More recently, he's still not doing anything in the way of scumhunting.

[Fishythefish]

Good farside. I said I did something ...that I shouldn't do. But once done confirms me 100% town.

The deed is done. Any town worth 2 cents should recognize it.

You're whole VT claim thing isn't it.

What are you talking about?

[Fishythefish]

Also if you look at Fishy's voting pattern he switched quickly from Jack to Hito to the Almaster/Benmage theory with ease. He's one of the key people that falls under Mina's analysis of "suspicious vote dropping".

Jack's slot claimed vanilla, so I switched to the Hito wagon because he became a poor lynch. Hito claimed vig, and so is a poor lynch, so I've switched to Benmage. I'm more in favour of the Benmage theory than the Almaster/Benmage theory - while there is a good link there, I think Benmage is also independently scummy.

I don't really see your problem with any of that. Just to say I'm vote hopping without the context of the claims going on is rather ridiculous.

[Fishythefish]

Depends on the claim, obviously. Those claims, in those situations, made the claimants bad lynches.

[Fishythefish]

WE have a problem. No one is lynchable in this game.

1. Andrius
THE GUY TRYING TO DRAW THE NK AWAY FROM THE VIG

2. populartajo
PEGGED AS TOWN BY EVERYONE BUT THE FRUIT PEOPLE

3. hitogoroshi
THE VIG

4. nopointinactingup
PERHAPS CONFIRMED BY DTM-HIDER

5. Equinox
PEGGED AS TOWN BY EVERYONE BUT THE FRUIT GODDESS FOR TRAITOR-FISHING, SOFTCLAIMED PGO

6. farside22 TOWN

7. Feysal
WAGONED YESTERDAY, BUT NOW PEGGED AS TOWN BY EVERYONE BUT THE FRUIT GODDESS FOR TRAITOR-FISHING

8. Lost Butterfly
TOWN

9. Corvuus
NOT EVEN SCUMMY

10. Benmage
SELF-VOTES, VANILLA CLAIM

11. Jack/AlmasterGM
THE "CONVINCING VANILLA CLAIM"

12. DTMaster THE HIDER

List of people I'd consider lynching:
- Benmage
- tajo
- npau
- Corvuus
In about that order.

Benmage: I mostly think you're scum for doing practically nothing all game. You also had an odd switch of read on TMH's play after Corvuus replaced in. I thought your post where you self voted looks rather half-assed; the reads in it look like just the kind of easy thing you'd come up with if trying to manufacture some reads.

farside's statement's about the me/Corv QT are accurate; while not the only reason, my brief interactions with TMH (largely me trying to shout "STOP TUNNELLING YOU FOOL" without making him even more tunnelled) are the main reason Corv gives for a serious town read on me. Other than that, I find him reasonably townish in the QT; he seems very willing to tell me what he's thinking about things. Still, if there's a bad egg in the Temple of Time it is Corvuus.

[Fishythefish]

@mod:

were Temples distributed entirely seperately from PRs and scum? IE if (purely hypothetically) there were a hider, a cop, a vig and a goon in the game, would the temples they were in be entirely independent?

[Fishythefish]

Yep. Just checking the same is true of PRs - AFAIK the mod hasn't made that explicit.

Actually, that's enough to say that we can't infer anything about scum from temples, even if we know all about PRs. So yeah, that logic from Andrius makes no sense - for scumhunting purposes, the temples are arbitrary groupings. We may as well say there is likely to be ONE scum with a prime numbered player number; probably true, but not at all useful.

[Fishythefish]

Interesting... so theoretically PR location could tell us where the scum are.

Theoretically. Seems like epic and extreme outguessing the mod.

My whole wagon's gone? That's surprising and disappointing.

[Fishythefish]

farside22, has Fishythefish asked you to claim in QuickTopic?

I may as well answer this - after I said that NS was scum, I asked everyone but farside to claim. I thought there was no chance at all she would.

Wait, why is TMH/NS impossible again?

[Fishythefish]

farside22, has Fishythefish asked you to claim in QuickTopic?

I may as well answer this - after I said that NS was scum, I asked everyone but farside to claim. I thought there was no chance at all she would.

Wait, why is TMH/NS impossible again?

...this doesn't sound right, Fishythefish. There's no harm in asking. If farside22 didn't want to claim, she'd have said so. Why did you hesitate?

No harm in asking, but no point in asking. farside had made it clear she didn't trust me, and doesn't seem the type for claiming if she's not confident in me. Why bother just to be told no?

There's been no point in the game that I've felt I've known farside's role, or attempted to give that impression - where are you referring to, farside?.

[Fishythefish]

I really don't like either of the lynches that look possible here. Equinox is right about TMH - TMH/NS makes no sense. And NS is the scumgod, so Corvuus isn't scum. AGM's vanilla claim was a town move.

I'll think about which I prefer tomorrow.

[Fishythefish]

themanhimself was tunneling Jack-scum and Nobody Special-scum extremely hard, and his standpoint was that we should lynch Jack -- and only Jack -- to learn if Nobody Special was scum. Given what I've said earlier about scum doing their utmost to not reveal the scum god, themanhimself-scum doing that, even as a distancing tactic, is unlikely.

I agree with this analysis. TMH wasn't just tunnelling Jack; he was setting up a Jack/NS dilemma. Which is pretty unlikely to come from scum with NS.

Corv's looking town in our QT (I'll expand on that when I have time). I'm definitely happier with a
VOTE: AGM

[Fishythefish]

Ahhhhh! Forgot I can move the deadline!

I hope I'm not too late.

Deadline changed to March 9th, 23:00 EDT.

UNVOTE:

[Fishythefish]

I prefer Benmage and NPAU lynches to Corvuus and AGM lynches. Here's why:

Corvuus

My QT with Corvuus is important here. In fact, I've been somewhat lazy about reading his inthread posting really thoroughly; when I start drifting into TLDR mode, I just ask him in the QT instead. He's been very free with his reads in there, and his explanations for things always ring true - I have a moderately strong town read on his posting in there.

TMH I found likely town as well; I think that degree of tunnelling, followed by replacing out apparently in frustration, looks like a townie who thinks he knows the truth and noone will believe him. His interactions with NS - setting up a Jack/NS dilemma - don't fit well with NSscum, and this is very much in Corvuus's favour.

So, I think Corvuus is pretty likely town.

AGM

Vanilla claims when about to be lynched are a pretty good towntell. Replacing in, saying you're not going to catch up, and claiming VT are not the actions of a scumbag who's priority is to save his own skin.

Benmage

[Fishythefish]

Oops.... didn't mean to hit submit at that point.

@mod:

Please close that colour tag in my last post?

Benmage

I've talked about Benmage before. He's lurked a lot, and I don't see anything remotely convincing in his "give up and self-vote" post. Saying that it makes him confirmed town is odd and really really untrue.

NPAU

I wouldn't like this as much as a Benmage lynch, but it would be much better than Corvuus/AGM. Odds of DTM having been roleblocked are pretty good, and NPAU has been really under the radar all game; I can easily see lurking being an attractive tactic for scum who's lucky enough to have an innocent report on them.

So, Benmage>NPAU>AGM>Corvuus, all fairly firm >s.

@Equi: I haven't got much of a read on Feysal through our QT. There's not much there that's different from what's in the thread, and I've struggled to get a conversation going.

VOTE: Benmage

[Fishythefish]

By my count, I can't push the deadline any later than I already have. So we need a lynch in the next two days.

Looking at people's stances, it seems more likely we can get a wagon going on NPAU than Benmage. Seems almost everyone who isn't already on the AGM wagon prefers an NPAU lynch. Let's do it.

UNVOTE: VOTE: NPAU

[Fishythefish]

The three people most questionable on this wagon are Corvuus, Fishythefish, and nopointinactingup; above vote count shows Fishythefish hopping like he's playing Leap Frog

I suppose I have, but I feel all my hops have been justified (albeit one of them only because I'm an idiot who forgot his power). Are there any you want to know more about?

[Fishythefish]

My vote for AGM only made sense because the deadline was today, and I forgot I could move it, so I thought I basically had to choose AGM or Corvuus.

[Fishythefish]

I really don't like either of the lynches that look possible here. Equinox is right about TMH - TMH/NS makes no sense. And NS is the scumgod, so Corvuus isn't scum.

I dont understand why NSscum means Corvuustown. Clarify?

but this was left without an answer.

See this post and this one.

[Fishythefish]

That's really stupid. Not only am I lurking but I'm also provoking my haters, does that sound like a scum tactic to you? I've made myself clear that I have no intention to drag the day on with a dis-unified town like this. I will stand by my statement.

You haven't had many haters until pretty recently. I think lurking when you are semi-confirmed town sounds exactly like a scum tactic.

Lol. Why do you want to lynch out of the claim pool again? You role-fishing

****

.

The claim pool is (IIRC) Hito, DTM, AGM, Benmage. The first two are claimed, and probably actually, PRs. AGM is likely town. Benmage I would love to lynch, but there's no support for it. It's not role-fishing to think lynching scum is more important than lynching claimed players.

Fish reeks with the trying-to-look town mindset.

Am I? I'm rather surprised. Could you explain further?

[Fishythefish]

@LB: yeah, that votecount looks pretty awful for me. But going a bit further, NS then unvoted Feysal, and revoted him again when he wasn't looking like getting lynched any more.

@Equi: actually, that's not why farside thought I knew her role. I told her I hadn't asked her to claim because I didn't think there'd be any point. She took that to mean that I knew her role, whereas I actually just meant I didn't think she'd tell me.

I need to reread Feysal, and particularly late day 1.

[Fishythefish]

So, logic goes as follows:

- Tajo kill was probably to get DTM.
- Hito wasn't roleblocked.
- So scum don't have a roleblocker.
- So NPAU is town.

Looks good. Needs DTM town, but that looks pretty certain. I can't see a roleblocker not blocking one of DTM and Hito.

[Fishythefish]

Though the fact you say he never asked you [Corvuus] for a claim bothers me... Did I get pantsed despite being paranoid like all hell on Day 1?

I can't actually remember the period concerned, but looking at my Corvuus QT he claimed, without in-QT prompting, on the 23rd Feb - after my "NS is scum" post in-thread. I had thought I asked him in the QT; in fact I intended to but didn't have to.

[Fishythefish]

Here is what happened.

23rd Feb, I made this post. At this point, I intended to ask my priests to claim in QTs. Other than farside, who clearly wasn't going to.

Shortly after, I posted in Equi, Mina and Feysal QTs asking them to claim, among other things. I also posted in Corv's QT. Much to my surprise, this post doesn't ask him to claim. I can only assume I forgot; I certainly intended to ask Corvuus to claim. Which he did, spontaneously (or rather, prompted by my in-thread post), a few hours later. When I said I has asked him to claim, that was a memory fail - I think you can see how that would happen from this sequence. I intended to do X, and saw the outcome of X, so I assumed I'd done X.

I don't know why Corv didn't correct me when I said I asked everyone but farside. You'll have to ask him.

I really don't have time to read properly right now. I'll comment on other things asap.

[Fishythefish]

...Therefore, I really do think he posted in Equinox's, Mina's, Feysal's, and Corvuus's QuickTopics, in that order.

What I am having trouble believing is that Fishythefish forgot to ask Corvuus. He went through the trouble of requesting claims in the game thread and then requesting in 3 different QuickTopics; the issue of claims appears to have been important to Fishythefish, so much so that he made it 4 times total before ever approaching Corvuus. In fact, Fishythefish had asked me first thing before addressing my post if I would consider claiming to him. I'll let Faraday and Mina work out the rest from their QuickTopic.

Memory fail, really?

Actually, that list wasn't meant to be indicative of order. I’ll check order some time if it matters.

I have no idea why I forgot to ask Corvuus. I agree that the issue of claims was important to me, and it’s surprising I forgot. What is your alternative reason that I wouldn't ask him?

I think as failures of memory go, it’s a pretty understandable one. I made a post in which I intended to ask Corvuus to claim. Corvuus claimed. I assumed I’d asked him.

[Fishythefish]

I haven't been able to keep up with this game today. I'm sorry about this; I intend to fix it in the next few hours.

[Fishythefish]

@farside: I've been away. I'll look at our QT now.

[Fishythefish]

VOTE: Hito

With Hito's claim turning out to be BS, he's back on the menu, and I think he's a good lynch:

- Weird move day 1, where he votes Feysal when he seems to think DRK is scummier.
- What kind of vig claim doesn't get killed?
- I don't know Hito's townplay well, but priests I trust have told me this is not like it (notably farside and Faraday).

[Fishythefish]

Hito is scum of some flavour. I don't think the situation is dangerous enough that lynching a SK is a bad thing. Let's lynch Hito.

[Fishythefish]

A sudden and bad RL situation has cropped up, and I will be away until early next week. Sorry.

[Fishythefish]

So, I didn't impose three day deadlines at any stage. Two reasons for this; it seemed unwise to have everyone in the other temples claim to their god, and I thought I could run with my QTs to get some townreads on me (and ultimately I got claims from Equi and Corvuus, so that went OK). If Feysal went down day 1 I was going to have 3 day deadlines, because that would have basically outed me as scum anyway, but until he was shot I felt we'd certainly be better off playing a real game. After that I had my doubts, but there seemed to be enough anti-NS sentiment for things to go on. Also, Hito was suspected enough that if nothing changed he wasn't going to survive the game.

I'd say our biggest mistake by far was not shooting Andy earlier. We thought he was just a traitor vig after night 1, and he was covering Hito, so we didn't kill him - but if we had then things could have turned out very differently. My main plan in the Temple was keeping Feysal alive by pushing Feysal-town with Equi, Corvuus and to some extent Mina, and when Andy shot him that blew my cover and my plan apart.

Hammering Hito was obviously a bit silly, and if I'd been around I'd have extended deadline or moved my vote, but frankly we'd lost anyway.

Apologies for my poor activity in this game. Partly due to RL problems, but also apathy caused by being pretty nearly confirmed immortal scum. It means there's not really much incentive to do anything.