New York 194: Guns N' Roses Mafia! (Day 8)
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I don't like Egg's questions to jam in 66, number 3 in particular is basically, "do you like your role?" which feels like rolefishing disguised as RQS.
I also don't like pisskop's rolefishing in 83 but it reads like a joke, although it was not interpreted that way.
79 felt weak at the time, but it makes sense as a reaction test. I don't think it was obvious however and Ness's reaction in 85 is really bad and opportunistic. And 105 is just bad.
On the other hand Killthestory's reaction felt genuine and read as towny outrage to me. Fragger said in 102 that his reaction was "interesting" and "could be opportunistic scum" but then in 106 says it was "genuine" but then was also "pretty eh". What do you actually mean?
UNVOTE:
Scumleans are iraonavp and Ness, and maybe Fragger depending on his response.-
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In response to Performer: 22 seemed like unnecessary qualification to join an RVS wagon. I didn't see the point of 23 and I thought it was to encourage that wagon or try to get jam to say something scummy.
I have KAAG, Egg, Killthestory and jam in my town pile atm. KAAG for his push on Ness and blatantly asking people to follow him. Egg because his analysis in 161 of Ness and of jam basically sums up my thoughts and it's unlikely those thoughts would come from scum. Killthestory because all of his reactions and comments feel super genuine and unfakeable. Jam because his posts read newbtown who doesn't realize that his wagon is not serious.
I have conflicting feelings about Ness and Fragger. Like Egg said his whole "day 1 in unimportant" stance could just be a personal opinion (and if anybody has played with Kaboose they know what I'm talking about), and he does feel a little like frustrated town being wagoned. But his play has been super opportunistic and defensive in a way that I think town would have stopped trying to defend himself and started scumhunting. Fragger is a similar way except he hasn't received much pressure for it. He made his weird 79 which he later admitted was a reaction test, but he seemed unable to draw any conclusions from it. When I pressed him about it he responded "day one is day one" and that there's not much to analyze. That said I do like his push on ira and it really doesn't feel like a bus.
Ira is leaning scum mostly for the reasons Fragger described, and everything he says feels awkward and forced. I also don't like GuyFawkes, particularly 127 which feels like coaching/buddying and either assuming Ness is town or trying to get him to do something that will get him scumread.
I already explained my Robster townread. Everyone else is null right now. Including pisskop (in response to Egg); I think him asking bugs for a claim is typical pisskop and not indicative of alignment.-
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In post 181, SnarkySnowman wrote:the quotes arent' very relevant to the vote.
Then what is relevant to it? Is it RVS or serious?-
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In post 214, Golden Robster wrote:
Killthestory because all of his reactions and comments feel super genuine and unfakeable.
Smart, you need to expand on this.
I like his reactions to Fragger in 80 and 86. After being called fake, he responds first with outrage at being misinterpreted, then with disdain toward Fragger, but he never tries to get Fragger to change his read and he insults Fragger's reaction test. I think scum would respond with either sidestepping the comment or trying to get Fragger to explain.
I also think his push on Ness gives the same "I'm pushing who I think is scummy regardless of what people think about it" feeling that I'm getting from KAAG.-
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Spoiler: N e s s
So my overall conclusion wrt this slot is that he is probably scum but that it is not as cut-and-dry as some people like KAAG were suggesting. I wish I had done this before he replaced out because I really would have wanted to know what he thought of Killthestory. My biggest objection to his play is that his read on Killthestory for being defensive persisted even after he himself became defensive-- I can imagine his "day 1 is not meritable" stance as coming from town but this discrepancy feels really unnatural and indicative of contrived reads.-
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Spoiler: Fraggernaut
So Fragger is one of those players who does stuff that's hard to understand as town and stuff that's hard to understand as scum, making him overall hard to understand. I do see a lot of town motivation (especially in the ira push) but but he also does some weird things and I really can't figure him out. I have him as null right now, not as in there's not enough to analyze but as in the sum of the positives and negatives is zero. I'll have to wait and see what he does before I can try and get a real read on him.-
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Slandaar is annoyingly noncommittal except for his stance on iraonavp.
Jam & Ilikebugs both feel like newbtown.
SirCakez's last few posts have pinged me, both the one about pisskop (feels like asking for credit without blame) and the one to Ilikebugs (feels like trying to blame Ilikebugs for misinterpreting pisskop's post).
Both Fraggernaut's and iraonavp's self-consciousness is awkward and I'll have to look at both of their metas.
Solid townreads now on KAAG, Killthestory, Robster and Egg. Growing townread on Performer.-
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Hey, it's Drixx!
I actually really like Egg's reaction test as it produced the very awkward 415. After which Drixx has multiple fluff discussions. I'd like to see some content from him but for now he's leaning scum.
I like KAAG's reads.-
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Spoiler: Creature
So Creature has done little scumhunting all game. He's been alternating lurky and defensive, mostly only addressing others who address him, and has been trying primarily to stay afloat rather than to actually further the wincon of the town. Combining that with 438, I would be happy on this wagon.
VOTE: Creature-
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Spoiler: Performer's catchups
I'm still townreading Performer, and most of these posts were fine. But a few parts of them (particularly 507) felt slightly off. After rereading, though, it doesn't really feel that unusual.-
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Not going to quote every post in iraonavp's ISO.
Ira starts off really awkwardly with 23, 29 and 30. Then he gets into the argument with Fragger. It's hard to tell his motivation from this argument but his defense actually seems legitimate and his 159 makes sense from a town mindset. However I don't like how he keeps being defensive and arguing with Fragger for the next 200 posts. I do like 397 because it's pretty much what I was thinking. He outlines some reads in 403 that are pretty shallow, but he doesn't push any of them, citing "CRIPPLING INDECISION", which is actually towny in that he had a chance to be opportunistic and didn't take it. He's actually trying to figure out motivation in 414 and 423, and then he votes no-lynch in what I thought was a reaction test that he has yet to follow up on.
Iraonavp is null leaning scum for me right now because I can see where most of what he is doing coming from a town mindset (town sometimes do forget to scumhunt and just defend themselves) but there's only a little, out of 47 posts, that shows a desire to find scum and there's also only a little that shows a lack of care for how one is being perceived.-
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I like DGB's reads.
Ira's series of posts in imitation of DGB is interesting. It's pretty obvious that he's upset about being scumread and is trying to do whatever he can to be townread, the problem being that both alignments do this. I definitely don't like him quoting his own post and calling it town.
Kop's vote on Ira feels opportunistic if Ira is town. He basically described what Ira did the last few pages, which was imitating DGB, rather than what he has done all game.
I would be okay with a Reubus wagon. I got bad vibes from Ness and Reubus's lurking hasn't helped.
@Ira re: 618: I do think it produced reactions, whether you intended it or not (though you called it "provocative" so I would think you did). Notably from Fragger and Performer. What do you think about those reactions?-
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In post 653, Performer wrote:In post 539, Drixx wrote:I think I probably just missed your question Performer. I stayed up from 9pm Sunday until 2:30am last night for non-mafia related stuffs, and I've been mostly recuperating from that today.
In post 596, Drixx wrote:In post 593, DrippingGoofball wrote:In post 406, Drixx wrote:I am unequivocally NOT a survivor, or any other sort of third party.
I take this as admission of being scum.
You take it wrong.
Oh really now.
You replaced into the MafiaT slot, which I've held as a scumread and nothing that's been posted since the replace-in, has changed my mind.
Also, I inquired why your predecessor claimed 2-shot Cop for no good reason, then you ignored my question...then I asked about why you ignored it, and you're trying to play it off as if I never asked it?
Can we stop doing this
It's not funny anymore and it doesn't advance the game.-
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It annoys me how Drixx keeps emphasizing that he didn't place his vote. It's like he's trying to avoid taking responsibility for it.
I don't think we need to listen to the iraonavp-SirCakez back-and-forth any more (708 ). Already pretty convinced there's one scum within those two.
Comfortable on the Reubus wagon. If the Creature wagon revived I'd be comfortable on that too. If neither of those two happen then I'd vote Ira but I just get some bad feelings from SirCakez (and the composition of the wagon in general).-
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@Drixx:
You have full control of your vote. Whoever you are voting you have tacitly said you want to lynch. If you and Reubus are both scum, then you are absolutely bussing him.
That said, I don't think you are and I'm not suggesting that you change your vote. It's a good vote and doesn't feel at all like a bus (if Reubus flips scum then you're probably town).
Pedit: yup that.-
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Aristo!
I would be okay with a hammer. I would kind of like Reubus to give some final thoughts or a defense but I doubt that's going to happen.
Ira's last few posts have been really weird and I didn't like the softclaim and I'll have to read him again overnight. I'll also have to reread Fragger, no idea where I stand on that slot.-
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So yeah, that post was pretty awful, like "I'm being freaking impossible to read, you're scum for not scumreading me for it."
But the Reubus lynch is not just because he is lurking. It's because Reubus replaced a scum slot and then lurked.
Pedit: Not PR feel. More like he said "if I were VT". Definitely a softclaim.-
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I was referring to 811.
Fragger pretty obviously misread DGB. I don't think that relates to his alignment. I don't think Fragger ever claimed a PR. Ira definitely claimed a PR.-
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In post 866, Performer wrote:VOTE: Boon
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@Fire
What're your reads?
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In case I die tonight - my scumreads to this moment, are Fire, Boon (just look at that ISO where 3/7 of his posts were prod related , yet he never provided any catchups), and Reub
Why Boon? Activity isn't alignment indicative. And why vote a vanity wagon so close to deadline?
SirCakez wrote:No we aren't hammering Reubus slot without a claim stop
This is almost certainly if scum if Reubus claims a PR and flips scum. I don't think he outright claimed VT though he certainly implied it.-
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Regarding the Reubus wagon: When I joined the wagon it had all my solid townreads on it. The only player on it before me that has a decent likelihood of being scum is Drixx.
I think it was a very much town led wagon, and probably most scum on it jumped on later. There's very likely at least one scum in <Fraggernaut, Ilikebugs, GuyFawkes> (leaning toward Fragger atm).
Iraonavp's play reminded me very much of scum backed into a corner, but I think the way his wagon developed as a counterwagon to the town-led Reubus wagon, combined with his insistence with Reubus was town, combined with his softclaim makes me doubt that he is scum.-
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@Egg: I definitely agree with you about Frag being scum near the end of the wagon and if one of my townreads are wrong it would probably be jam. I'm reading jam as newbtown but I have been burned by what I thought was newbtown before. I'll have to reread his ISO at some point.
@Fragger: can you explain your Ira read? What is your read on Drixx?-
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In post 1025, Fraggernaut wrote:My Ira read & push was already explained in detail day one.
Also I've gave multiple reasons for why I've read Drixx town.
Are you even paying attention this game Something?
Yes, I am. Your last post sorting Drixx was 633. Are you just calling him town without analyzing anything he's done since then?
Your last post sorting Ira was 723, and that was just to say he OMGUS'ed a lot. Do you have any other reasons?-
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^I can see where this is coming from. 1032 really rubbed me the wrong way, where Drixx assumes Guy will flip town while calling him scummy.
@Drixx what is your read on Fragger?
Trying to assess the likelihood of a Fragger/Drixx team.
By the way, this feels like town-Snarky. (Though I haven't played with scum-Snarky so I can't say anything definitive yet.)-
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In post 1049, Drixx wrote:Something_Smart is trying too hard to live up to his name. I didn't say Guy was scummy in #1032. I said that I voted him to see how people would react. In fact I went out of my way to point out that Guy lacked any substantive content upon which to form a read. He had 14 posts when I made that post, and he has 15 now. There's almost nothing of substance there.
But you know ... you can just claim I said something and people will totally believe it.
But even so, why did you turn around and assume he is town? My point still holds.
Also, what is your read on Fragger?-
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In post 1065, Fraggernaut wrote:So Fragger is one of those players who does stuff that's hard to understand as town and stuff that's hard to understand as scum, making him overall hard to understand. I do see a lot of town motivation (especially in the ira push) but but he also does some weird things and I really can't figure him out. I have him as null right now, not as in there's not enough to analyze but as in the sum of the positives and negatives is zero. I'll have to wait and see what he does before I can try and get a real read on him.
So you see town motivation from my posts, but are now pushing on me doing a total 360 today? Also how would you know what my scum game looks like, seeing as I haven't had a scum game on this site, including this one? The only META dive you would be able to do, is a town META dive from my previous games. This feels like Something_Smart has more information then town should have, & he knows I'm town but is trying to push for a easy mislynch on me today from people's paranoia.
I reread your posts and changed my mind. And don't misrep me, because I never used meta to push you.
Also I'll admit that I am a easy mislynch, due to my play. There are several people who started in this game (Slandaar, Performer, pisskop, SirCakez, Drixx ect) that have seen my town play & I got lynched. Guess what? I flipped town every single game.
How is this relevant? You're playing like scum. Ergo, you're probably scum.
Also in Something_Smart's #260 spoiler of me, he breaks down most of my posts at the time, & in some way agreed with them, said they were fine, or came from a town perspective. I stated early on that I felt like Something_Smart was going to try to pocket/buddy me as the day continued, instead they've flipped all the way around with the only reasoning being a misread of Dripping's post.
That's not the only reasoning. I haven't explained all of my reasoning yet, but trust me, there's more than that.
He believed my read of Jam was accurate in my #65 post.
So?
He also liked my push on Ira day one, but is now trying to crucify me for it in my day two.
I thought ira was scum then, and I didn't think you two could be partners. But now I'm starting to lean town on Ira and I don't love that push as much anymore.
I had the read on Robster, we agreed on it & then Something_Smart hasn't tried to push on their replacement which is odd.
I townread Robster and always have. Not sure why you'd want me to push DGB?
In your #354 you said you would have to look at my META. If you actually looked it it you would know this is my town play. 100%
Fair point. I have yet to look at your meta. I'm planning on doing that sometime soon (when I'm not busy).
Your #809 you say you're going to reread me.
#828 you agree that I misread DGB's post which I did.
All of a sudden in #973 you drop a lame duck vote on me, in a attempt to start a wagon.
So what does that say about me? I reread you and now think you are scum.
Overall Something_Smart has suddenly became so interested in people's reads on me in day two, that they've pretty much forgot about anyone else in the game. It's quite fascinating to see how quickly they've had a change of heart, which I alluded to before.
If you never change your reads, it means they aren't real.-
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So first of all, I never expressed a scumread on Fragger or a townread on iraonavp before today.
But also, I just noticed this:
In post 721, Something_Smart wrote:
I don't think we need to listen to the iraonavp-SirCakez back-and-forth any more (708 ). Already pretty convinced there's one scum within those two.
which means I may have to read the iraonavp-SirCakez interactions again knowing SirCakez is town. Hmm.-
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In post 1188, DrippingGoofball wrote:Also meta is BS.
I half-agree with this. Meta is useful for disproving tells ("Player X is scum because he did Y." "Actually, he does Y even as town, so that doesn't say anything about his alignment.") but not for proving them ("Player X did Y as scum. He must be scum here for doing Y."). So I think looking at Drixx's scum meta is helpful in establishing that he doesn't play in a consistent way as scum, and therefore should not be townread for his playstyle.-
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Drixx, don't say you haven't done anything scummy. A disproportionate amount of your posts are defensive and your defending is done in a stilted and awkward way that does not at all resemble a town defense.
This most recent post is no exception. KAAG's meta argument is at best a tangential point, but you write a wall about it and ignore the other issues. Not to mention that saying "don't lynch me I promise I'll come in handy later" is not helping you at all.-
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Something_Smart He/himSomewhat_BalancedHe/him
- Somewhat_Balanced
- Somewhat_Balanced
- Posts: 23129
- Joined: November 17, 2015
- Pronoun: He/him
- Location: Upstate New York
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Something_Smart He/himSomewhat_BalancedHe/him
- Somewhat_Balanced
- Somewhat_Balanced
- Posts: 23129
- Joined: November 17, 2015
- Pronoun: He/him
- Location: Upstate New York
Ira's and Killthestory's reads are both pretty good. Kuroi's are questionable (as far as I can tell the only time he mentioned me in his catchup was to say that I was towny on page 2, so...).
Town- DrippingGoofball, KickAssAndGiggle, Yume, Killthestory, Egg
Null/town- Performer, Ilikebugs, Slandaar, iraonavp
Null- KuroiXHF, SnarkySnowman
Null/scum- Fraggernaut, Aristophanes, Ozgin, GuyFawkes
Scum- Drixx, Firebringer-
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Something_Smart He/himSomewhat_BalancedHe/him
- Somewhat_Balanced
- Somewhat_Balanced
- Posts: 23129
- Joined: November 17, 2015
- Pronoun: He/him
- Location: Upstate New York
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Something_Smart He/himSomewhat_BalancedHe/him
- Somewhat_Balanced
- Somewhat_Balanced
- Posts: 23129
- Joined: November 17, 2015
- Pronoun: He/him
- Location: Upstate New York
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Something_Smart He/himSomewhat_BalancedHe/him
- Somewhat_Balanced
- Somewhat_Balanced
- Posts: 23129
- Joined: November 17, 2015
- Pronoun: He/him
- Location: Upstate New York
In post 1464, Ilikebugs wrote:Why are people on Snarky?
Not sure but I think it's a pressure wagon. I kind of like the way it formed actually.-
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Something_Smart He/himSomewhat_BalancedHe/him
- Somewhat_Balanced
- Somewhat_Balanced
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- Location: Upstate New York
@Mod: Fragger is voting Snarky.
I'm not sure what to think about the Snarky wagon. I thought it developed as a pressure wagon to force him to give content (which it has failed to do) but the last few votes (particularly Drixx's) seem to see it as an actual lynch wagon. That vote by Drixx feels terribly opportunistic if Snarky is town, and in any event I don't like this wagon as an actual lynch wagon.
Also, as a note, Snarky's reads are usually pretty accurate (see both recent completed Fire & Ice games), and he never explains them.-
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Something_Smart He/himSomewhat_BalancedHe/him
- Somewhat_Balanced
- Somewhat_Balanced
- Posts: 23129
- Joined: November 17, 2015
- Pronoun: He/him
- Location: Upstate New York
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Something_Smart He/himSomewhat_BalancedHe/him
- Somewhat_Balanced
- Somewhat_Balanced
- Posts: 23129
- Joined: November 17, 2015
- Pronoun: He/him
- Location: Upstate New York
So not everything you have done is scummy. But so many things you have done show scum motivation and it's not confbias because I look at each post and say, "this is scummy and the person who wrote it is scum" rather than saying "Drixx wrote it and now I can find a way to call it scummy". But these are the things you have done recently:
Pushed Ari for a scumslip while simultaneously saying that scumslips are often wrong.
Voted Snarky for a reason that can only be explained as "this seems to be the convenient wagon".
Appealed to my skill as a player in a way that reeeeally assumes I am town.-
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Something_Smart He/himSomewhat_BalancedHe/him
- Somewhat_Balanced
- Somewhat_Balanced
- Posts: 23129
- Joined: November 17, 2015
- Pronoun: He/him
- Location: Upstate New York
In post 1533, Killthestory wrote:I like the Snarky wagon.
No.
His reads suck
Yes.
My townread on KTS is weakening. I don't like the way he responded to 1536 while assuming that it was a stupid question, as if his intent was to find a reason to discredit, rather than looking again to make sure he understood it properly. I'll have to look at him again.
@Drixx: it's not confbias to have my analysis of your recent posts agree with my prior read on you. That Snarky vote made no sense regardless of who it came from. I feel like you're just throwing buzzwords around that don't really apply to the situation.-
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Something_Smart He/himSomewhat_BalancedHe/him
- Somewhat_Balanced
- Somewhat_Balanced
- Posts: 23129
- Joined: November 17, 2015
- Pronoun: He/him
- Location: Upstate New York
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Something_Smart He/himSomewhat_BalancedHe/him
- Somewhat_Balanced
- Somewhat_Balanced
- Posts: 23129
- Joined: November 17, 2015
- Pronoun: He/him
- Location: Upstate New York
Snarky is always lurky and useless. Like in this game. And we're not PLing somebody for being useless this early.
Plus, given that he has so little content to begin with, I doubt he would so blatantly WK Reubus: