Large Normal 238 | Weiqi, Baduk, Go | Endgame

[Frogsterking]

I apologize for holding up the game. Good luck to the mafia.

VOTE: Yeet

Why was there such a long delay? What did you do?

[Frogsterking]

My account name of “maozedong” was not accepted by the mods, so they told me to change the name of my account.

Sounds a little far fetched!

[Frogsterking]

Ah, yeah I will have to do that at some point. I’m currently on my phone in bed but I will do that the next time I get to a computer (will probably be tomorrow evening after work).

I'm not joking! I think your slot is a scum power role who is required to be present or the game risks becoming mechanically unfair to the scum team.

[Frogsterking]

My account name of “maozedong” was not accepted by the mods, so they told me to change the name of my account.

Sounds a little far fetched!

What are you implying / was your initial vote serious?

Ah, yeah I will have to do that at some point. I’m currently on my phone in bed but I will do that the next time I get to a computer (will probably be tomorrow evening after work).

I'm not joking! I think your slot is a scum power role who is required to be present or the game risks becoming mechanically unfair to the scum team.

I'm being serious I think the setup was delayed because it's balanced mechanically around a very powerful scum power role and the player who got this role never confirmed!

[Frogsterking]

Indeed I am saddened as well. However both he and the current leader of China are very controversial figures, so I understand the sentiment behind the sanction.

I suspect that Frogsterking is aligned with the town.

Now I'm worried that Fool is a role in large normals?

Yeet is talking about depressing non-game related topics and is townreading me despite doing nothing but instantly shading their slot unironically at start of game.

Is Maedong or whoever an alt of NM?

[Frogsterking]

VOTE: frogsterking for making the first thread of serious conversation in this game be a really dumb one

42 fireisred trying to shut down scumhunting during start of day noted

[Frogsterking]

Salutations. Yeet and any others whom it may concern, you may call me teneb or tl if that is easier. I also respond to "hey you."

I would like to think that the game delay is notsomething we should read into, so I won't.

Okay can you elaborate?

[Frogsterking]

Yeet is talking about depressing non-game related topics and is townreading me despite doing nothing but instantly shading their slot unironically at start of game.

What? How are they depressing non-game topics and do you object to me/dats saying your entrance was +town and why is shading their slow unironically scummy (and i'm not sure they were even shading their slot either ...)

~

not sure i like 42

It's non game related for TOWN because it doesn't help with scumhunting, I think it's believable you and Dats +town my entrance so I'm not objecting to it OR returning you or Dats +town back because it could just be a pocket attempt from you.

[Frogsterking]

I can guarantee at least one scum has posted.

How could you know this?

[Frogsterking]

The forum software this website uses is pretty old, right?

Yes

[Frogsterking]

why does frogster sound so NEW, it's weird vibes for a 2011 join date

Shade or curious?

[Frogsterking]

After readinf 71 multiple times, i actually dont think i got any clarity from it >.>

Why is it more believeable that me/dats would townbin you than for yeet to do the same thing?

~

Nai = non alignment indicative

In other words i'm saying what dats has done thus far is neither townie nor scummy for him

Okay so in 71 I'm saying I would often consider anyone approaching me the way you did like "hey me and this other person think you're +town" to be a scumtell and reject the read. The way you asked me just now in 52 seems so believable I'm not scumreading you for it AND still I'm too cynical of being pocketed to even give you a potential town lean for it.

I just noticed in 52 you also asked why Yeet is unironically scummy for townreading me despite my only actions being to shade Yeet. I don't know how to answer that other than that I don't think it's a very believable/common reaction from a townie for Yeet to play like that?

[Frogsterking]

why does frogster sound so NEW, it's weird vibes for a 2011 join date

Shade or curious?

no offense meant, new isn't bad. but when the way you are approaching and interacting with the game doesn't line up with how i would think an experienced player would, it could be cause you feel awkward and have trouble engaging genuinely as maf.

but on the other hand, if you are more new (and looks like you don't have a ton of games played actually) then it makes you make more sense to me

Okay I understand now, I think you're scumhunting because you already followed up by checking my # games played

[Frogsterking]

Vote Yeet

[Frogsterking]

I don't think skitter is scummy for saying what she did about Datisi.
It sounds pretty normal to me. While not everyone here is completely familiar with Datisi's playstyle, I don't think it's scummy for skitter to suggest that Datisi's posts are NAI.

The point was not that she suggested his posts are NAI - that is what I expect town skitter to do. And I’m sure she knew that part, regardless of what her alignment is. The point is that she started it with disbelief that he was getting pressure from players who don’t know him, knowing full well that she is using her experience with Datisi to sort him.

She saw an opportunity to make a read (fake content) that she would as town and slipped up in how she presented it.

Maybe she just thought that other players would see the same things she did, but it turned out that they didn't.

136 noted for being potentially a town tell, a scum tell, or both!

[Frogsterking]

Okay so in 71 I'm saying I would often consider anyone approaching me the way you did like "hey me and this other person think you're +town" to be a scumtell and reject the read. The way you asked me just now in 52 seems so believable I'm not scumreading you for it AND still I'm too cynical of being pocketed to even give you a potential town lean for it.

I just noticed in 52 you also asked why Yeet is unironically scummy for townreading me despite my only actions being to shade Yeet. I don't know how to answer that other than that I don't think it's a very believable/common reaction from a townie for Yeet to play like that?

I dont really understand any of this either ...

..

awkward

[Frogsterking]

Okay following 163 I feel compelled to share wu is a townlean for me unironically.

Well folks, I think my work here is done.

[Frogsterking]

@Wu

Wu sheep my vote on Yeet if you're town. Yeet's slot is scummy, Yeet is stumbling the daystart, and I don't want my Yeet wagon to be arbitrarily abandoned

[Frogsterking]

Okay following 163 I feel compelled to share wu is a townlean for me unironically.

Well folks, I think my work here is done.

Dang
How did you conclude that

I think 136 and 163 are more likely to come from town because they're unassuming and open up lines of discussion!

[Frogsterking]

Okay following 163 I feel compelled to share wu is a townlean for me unironically.

Well folks, I think my work here is done.

Dang
How did you conclude that

I think 136 and 163 are more likely to come from town because they're unassuming and open up lines of discussion!

163 is not towny, fluff is not discussion. i don't think it's very scummy either but maf has more motivation to try to make friends than town does

Huh do you mind elaborating why maf have more motivation to make friends than town? I'm going for a walk but I'll be back soon.

[Frogsterking]

Do Aristeia and Datisi know each other in person?

I don't know about irl, but I replaced out of a game (which is now completed) where they both made this kind of shitposting as Town.

Link:
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=88600

I believe the behavior is NAI but extremely AntiTown and I'm down to policy lim Ari for it and/or Dats if he's resisting the Ari policy lim too much.

[Frogsterking]

in the flurry of early posts, while participating in them live i kinda mentally binned yeet as new and confident and that i would probably disagree with a lot of his takes because of it, but that he seemed towny enough. looking back at the ISO now though, im less sold on that. agreed that the sequence malcolm pointed out was bad

Yeah this is something I was planning to follow up with you on once I finally got caught up

[Frogsterking]

not to play the devil's advocate or anything, but i don't think "this person is the most suspected, also they need more" is like, an actual contradiction or a problem

i do have issues with other parts of his play but you know

Are you talking about Yeet?

[Frogsterking]

I townlean you now by the way Luminary

[Frogsterking]

Also, VOTE: fua

Vote Wu or HEM

Nah I prefer fua + Yeet

[Frogsterking]

I kinda have this feeling that there might be scum defending me for free towncred.

I think there's a good chance of either that or the higher player volume causing the wagons to feel like they have more resistance. I think your wagon looks like any other limbait wagon and has a low chance of flipping scum.

[Frogsterking]

Malcolm if Yeet isn't your top townread by the end of D1 would you be willing to compromise on them to meet the deadline?

[Frogsterking]

who is even defending you

I don't have any posts to hand but there's definitely been a couple of posts who have been less keen on a Wu vote at this stage. Nobody is exactly mounting a huge defence but then suspicion of him has been sporadic - if still fairly consistent - anyway for the most part.

I agree with this I remember seeing the size of the Wu wagon fluctuate a lot and always return.

[Frogsterking]

Yeet I'm still not a fan of your slot but if you're looking to run up fua I can make a truce with you D1 so we can both wagon fua

[Frogsterking]

1711 town reading fire now. I had this slot as a town lean for a long time. I'm not sure about the accuracy of 1711 but I don't think this effort comes from scum.

[Frogsterking]

1711 town reading fire now. I had this slot as a town lean for a long time. I'm not sure about the accuracy of 1711 but I don't think this effort comes from scum.

you shouldn't be townreading for effort in general, we have some very effort-maf players in this game

Okay who?

[Frogsterking]

I don't agree with that assessment at all, Ari didn't put effort into her reads until D4 in the game I replaced out of with her.

[Frogsterking]

IMO this is a policy lim and Math and Ari are most likely TvT.

[Frogsterking]

1711 town reading fire now. I had this slot as a town lean for a long time. I'm not sure about the accuracy of 1711 but I don't think this effort comes from scum.

you shouldn't be townreading for effort in general, we have some very effort-maf players in this game

Okay who?

p sure skitter and datisi both have that reputation but i could be wrong on that cause ive never played with them, just read some

Yeah I've heard that about them too! The only completed game I played with them before they were both town so I can't confirm or deny. I still think you're probably town.

[Frogsterking]

I thought I was going to be able to catch up to the 9 pages added overnight, but then I had two hours of work to do and there were six more pages added. I'm at page 65 currently and it is almost entirely Math saying shit that literally no one agrees with and insisting he is right.

Like, Math, can we please not do this again in this game? You've stated your viewpoint, we got it. All we need to be doing at this point is flipping Wu and getting some actual information.

I do think there is another small pool of people we can scumhunt in, but flipping Wu first should be a priority.

pedit - fuck me there are like 12 posts in the time it took me to write this.

I'm skipping all the posts involving Nordom/MathBlade or Ari arguing with someone.

[Frogsterking]

scorpious, do you have a single read this game or are you just gonna throw unhelpful posts

oof, I really haven't. fair assessment, I'll try to step it up..

I got a late start on this on and there is a lot of activity, not an excuse,buy again I can't argue I havent done much.

Can you look at the interactions at the beginning of my iso (daystart) and say which reads you agree/disagree with and why?

[Frogsterking]

Ari wagon is almost certainly pure IMO. I'm less confident that Wu's is and so many people pushing him now that others are getting suspicion makes me wary.

Yes dude I think Wu is just limbait. Your insistence on pushing Wu earlier was the main reason I FoSed you.

[Frogsterking]

PSA: If a pure wagon is what you're looking for then please take notice of my Yeet wagon. Thank you.

[Frogsterking]

If Ari is town she would be putting more thought into the game than just tackling low-hanging limbait.

My experience with Ari has been that she is generally an unthoughtful townie.

[Frogsterking]

PSA: If a pure wagon is what you're looking for then please take notice of my Yeet wagon. Thank you.

You that opposed to the wu yeet?

Yeah kinda I think it's not the best call

[Frogsterking]

Using the KISS method and narrowing it down . I would favor an ari launch over a Wu launch.

Can you elaborate on how you narrowed that down please?

[Frogsterking]

she voted Scorp for ???? reason. You attacking me for voting Ari has shit all to do with her.

Yeah I have to say I think Nero is probably town this game

[Frogsterking]

@

Dats

1847 just seems kinda townie and lines up with Nero's actions this game. It's not a deep read.

[Frogsterking]

Why can't Ari just be like ya know, scum that ploped down a vote on a somewhat EZ to wagon player in an attempt to save herself b/c you know he's EZ?

You're pulling me around to the idea

[Frogsterking]

scorpious, do you have a single read this game or are you just gonna throw unhelpful posts

oof, I really haven't. fair assessment, I'll try to step it up..

I got a late start on this on and there is a lot of activity, not an excuse,buy again I can't argue I havent done much.

Can you look at the interactions at the beginning of my iso (daystart) and say which reads you agree/disagree with and why?

Using the KISS method and narrowing it down . I would favor an ari launch over a Wu launch.

Can you elaborate on how you narrowed that down please?

Hey Scorpius I asked you these questions and I want you to answer because you're pretty low info

[Frogsterking]

Hell yes, good vote luminary! VOTE: fua

[Frogsterking]

VP would you settle for a D1 fua lim?

[Frogsterking]

Hey Math can you elaborate on what you discovered during the VCA you did on replace in?

[Frogsterking]

Hey Math can you elaborate on what you discovered during the VCA you did on replace in?

I have to work now lunch break is over. I came in and the VCs were both on me and Monkey. This doesn’t “just happen” that two masons are wagoned. Means scum likely knew who we were already.

Means scum deviated intentionally to us means scum on the wagons.
Players deviated from Datisi and Wu to me and HEM
(Before Fite complains there’s some intermediary steps which fire highlights)

But the gist is to find that why.

Hmm the joint probability of both masons being wagoned does seem pretty low. I can try to figure out the probability of that.

[Frogsterking]

Means scum likely knew who we were already.

is it just me or is like, purposefully wagoning someone you know is a mason a HORRIBLE scum strategy? >_>

I would do it though to be fair

[Frogsterking]

Scorp is someone who won’t defend himself and as you said, is a low poster/not participating. It’s uncontroversial LHF.

LHF implies town alignment and I don't really see how you're making that determination.

Not necessarily, but it’s FoS because I SR you and you’re pushing him.

you SR me for pushing him.

you townread him because you SR me.

isn't that just circular logic?

Nope.

that's a good point about fua

VOTE: fua

Ari and Fire scum together?

Ari’s wagon is pure though.

I didn't like fua's early posts or their recent posts here either

[Frogsterking]

I didn't like fua's early posts or their recent posts here either

can you expand on what you didn't like? What specifically?

I don't see the read progression for fua to townread all of the Ari wagon, I don't think fua's FoS of Fire is very believable and I think fua is blending by dogpiling Ari.

[Frogsterking]

Hey guys! I just worked on this questionnaire with my friend to help with scumhunting! It was built around the idea that mafia forums are a low scope low testability domain.

Here's the "low-scope low-testability scumhunting questionnaire:"

#1 How does the wave function evolve?
#2 Does wave function imply many worlds?
#3 Have we used all the available technology?
#4 Do we live in a simulation?

[Frogsterking]

Holy crap what the hell did I miss??

[Frogsterking]

I claim PR. You can all now feel free to get off of me.

Fire or Skitter should probably die today. I wouldn’t be opposed to Wu, but it feels like a waste right now.

Try it and you’ll catch my vig bullet in the face tonight. No, really. Make mu day.

I claim PR. You can all now feel free to get off of me.

Fire or Skitter should probably die today. I wouldn’t be opposed to Wu, but it feels like a waste right now.

What about Ari?

Ari is also scum, but a little less likely than the other two. Maybe she really did just make a bad push.

If anyone else wants to claim vigilante then feel free.

This is really townie UNVOTE: fua

[Frogsterking]

fua, what are your reads? doesn't have to be a list, just walk me through who's on your shitlist.

Shitlist is Skitter, Wu, Ari’s slot, Fire, Yeet, and possibly Tenebro for now. Subject to change later, and doesn’t include Eyes or Scorpious because they’re not worth pursuing at the moment.

I mean I've been wanting Yeet wagon all day. VOTE: Yeet

Eyes and Scorpius should be directed to complete my "low scope low testability scumhunting questionnaire." Those are the exact kind of slots that questionnaire was designed to help deal with.

[Frogsterking]

hmm

Are you tempted by a Yeet wagon?

[Frogsterking]

Yeet Yeet

[Frogsterking]

why yeet and not wu

I thought wu was townier in the daystart trying to get conversation going, i feel like wu is being wagoned because of a temperamental difference as much as anything. Wu also adds to the lightness of the table which is important to sustain motivation for us going forward.

[Frogsterking]

Also I think the best evidence against Wu is the wagon collapse but that's circumstantial evidence. If you like wagon-resistant then check iut Yeet by the way too, Yeet is even more wagon resistance than Wu.

[Frogsterking]

why is yeet the best vote here?

They're not scumhunting

[Frogsterking]

VOTE: Fua

Frogsterking, I am ready to shake this tree with you.

This is the only townie thing they did IMO and my read was wrong here.

[Frogsterking]

199 seems really unlikely to place me as top townread. Seems like Yeet is maybe trying to get me off their back by calling me obv townie.

I don't buy from 577 to 585 to 1206. It seems pretty opportunistic to join the popular monkey wagon which Yeet has allegedly townread all day.

Now, if fua flipped maf for example, I might be tempted to town lean Yeet for supporting me on that wagon. Since fua seems really townie now it makes me suspicious of Yeet's motives for supporting my push onto fua earlier.

[Frogsterking]

Am I the only one that looks at “92” pages and says “ F that?”

I created a questionnaire for players like you. Can you fill it out please?

[Frogsterking]

Hey guys! I just worked on this questionnaire with my friend to help with scumhunting! It was built around the idea that mafia forums are a low scope low testability domain.

Here's the "low-scope low-testability scumhunting questionnaire:"

#1 How does the wave function evolve?
#2 Does wave function imply many worlds?
#3 Have we used all the available technology?
#4 Do we live in a simulation?

Scorpius please answer these

[Frogsterking]

scorpius aren't you tired of actively lurking

First off. I like the word choice trying to plant seeds of scummy behavior.
Well done.

Second, I have a real life man. This hyper wall posting is making the game extremely difficult to follow.

2188 scorpius i'll never shade you if you answer these questions to the best of your capability.

[Frogsterking]

2294 alright scorpius is at least willing to cooperate and the scorpius slot is cool in my book. I think the rep in for Eyes should fill out the questionnaire as well. Im going to look over Scorpius answers now.

[Frogsterking]

Fire, what is your current reads list? I may have missed it.

+2 from me on wanting to see a reads list from Fire. I'm still reviewing Scorpius answer to my questionnaire, there is a lot of content written there it's taking a while.

Pedit:

Fire I think the readlist incorporates spatial elements which is helpful especially for some players like me

[Frogsterking]

Hey guys! I just worked on this questionnaire with my friend to help with scumhunting! It was built around the idea that mafia forums are a low scope low testability domain.

Here's the "low-scope low-testability scumhunting questionnaire:"

#1 How does the wave function evolve?
#2 Does wave function imply many worlds?
#3 Have we used all the available technology?
#4 Do we live in a simulation?

Scorpius please answer these

#1 For a given system, the choice of which commuting degrees of freedom to use is not unique, and correspondingly the domain of the wave function is also not unique. For instance, it may be taken to be a function of all the position coordinates of the particles over position space, or the momenta of all the particles over momentum space; the two are related by a Fourier transform. Some particles, like electrons and photons, have nonzero spin, and the wave function for such particles include spin as an intrinsic, discrete degree of freedom; other discrete variables can also be included, such as isospin. When a system has internal degrees of freedom, the wave function at each point in the continuous degrees of freedom (e.g., a point in space) assigns a complex number for each possible value of the discrete degrees of freedom (e.g., z-component of spin) – these values are often displayed in a column matrix (e.g., a 2 × 1 column vector for a non-relativistic electron with spin 1⁄2).

#2 As has been demonstrated, the set of all possible wave functions in some representation for a system constitute an in general infinite-dimensional Hilbert space. Due to the multiple possible choices of representation basis, these Hilbert spaces are not unique. One therefore talks about an abstract Hilbert space, state space, where the choice of representation and basis is left undetermined. Specifically, each state is represented as an abstract vector in state space.[41] A quantum state |Ψ⟩ in any representation is generally expressed as a vector

|
Ψ
⟩
=
∑
α
∫
d
m
ω
Ψ
(
α
,
ω
,
t
)
|
α
,
ω
⟩
{\displaystyle |\Psi \rangle =\sum _{\boldsymbol {\alpha }}\int d^{m}\!{\boldsymbol {\omega }}\,\,\Psi ({\boldsymbol {\alpha }},{\boldsymbol {\omega }},t)\,|{\boldsymbol {\alpha }},{\boldsymbol {\omega }}\rangle }
where

|α, ω⟩ the basis vectors of the chosen representation
dmω = dω1dω2...dωm a "differential volume element" in the continuous degrees of freedom
Ψ(α, ω, t) a component of the vector |Ψ⟩, called the wave function of the system
α = (α1, α2, ..., αn) dimensionless discrete quantum numbers
ω = (ω1, ω2, ..., ωm) continuous variables (not necessarily dimensionless)
These quantum numbers index the components of the state vector. More, all α are in an n-dimensional set A = A1 × A2 × ... An where each Ai is the set of allowed values for αi; all ω are in an m-dimensional "volume" Ω ⊆ ℝm where Ω = Ω1 × Ω2 × ... Ωm and each Ωi ⊆ ℝ is the set of allowed values for ωi, a subset of the real numbers ℝ. For generality n and m are not necessarily equal.

Short answer yes

3.No, we’re being fed technology at a pace that appeases the overlords.

4. Only an overlord has permission to ask that question.

Okay the answer to 1, 3 and 4 are good.

The answer to 2 is good in its conclusion (arguably) and weak in its demonstration of how to improve testability of
said conclusion.

Overall I'm thinking that Scorpius is a townlean here guys!



Question 3 needs to be revised for future low info low testable players (aka Eyes slot replacement):

3 With sufficient technology can all low scope low testability questions be made testable?

[Frogsterking]

I want to hear more from Wu. I wonder if the wagons drove them away!

[Frogsterking]

Fire, do you think with VP, Dats and Nero being scared of them is AI?

[Frogsterking]

Hey guys! I just worked on this questionnaire with my friend to help with scumhunting! It was built around the idea that mafia forums are a low scope low testability domain.

Here's the "low-scope low-testability scumhunting questionnaire:"

#1 How does the wave function evolve?
#2 Does wave function imply many worlds?
#3 Have we used all the available technology?
#4 Do we live in a simulation?

Scorpius please answer these

#1 For a given system, the choice of which commuting degrees of freedom to use is not unique, and correspondingly the domain of the wave function is also not unique. For instance, it may be taken to be a function of all the position coordinates of the particles over position space, or the momenta of all the particles over momentum space; the two are related by a Fourier transform. Some particles, like electrons and photons, have nonzero spin, and the wave function for such particles include spin as an intrinsic, discrete degree of freedom; other discrete variables can also be included, such as isospin. When a system has internal degrees of freedom, the wave function at each point in the continuous degrees of freedom (e.g., a point in space) assigns a complex number for each possible value of the discrete degrees of freedom (e.g., z-component of spin) – these values are often displayed in a column matrix (e.g., a 2 × 1 column vector for a non-relativistic electron with spin 1⁄2).

#2 As has been demonstrated, the set of all possible wave functions in some representation for a system constitute an in general infinite-dimensional Hilbert space. Due to the multiple possible choices of representation basis, these Hilbert spaces are not unique. One therefore talks about an abstract Hilbert space, state space, where the choice of representation and basis is left undetermined. Specifically, each state is represented as an abstract vector in state space.[41] A quantum state |Ψ⟩ in any representation is generally expressed as a vector

|
Ψ
⟩
=
∑
α
∫
d
m
ω
Ψ
(
α
,
ω
,
t
)
|
α
,
ω
⟩
{\displaystyle |\Psi \rangle =\sum _{\boldsymbol {\alpha }}\int d^{m}\!{\boldsymbol {\omega }}\,\,\Psi ({\boldsymbol {\alpha }},{\boldsymbol {\omega }},t)\,|{\boldsymbol {\alpha }},{\boldsymbol {\omega }}\rangle }
where

|α, ω⟩ the basis vectors of the chosen representation
dmω = dω1dω2...dωm a "differential volume element" in the continuous degrees of freedom
Ψ(α, ω, t) a component of the vector |Ψ⟩, called the wave function of the system
α = (α1, α2, ..., αn) dimensionless discrete quantum numbers
ω = (ω1, ω2, ..., ωm) continuous variables (not necessarily dimensionless)
These quantum numbers index the components of the state vector. More, all α are in an n-dimensional set A = A1 × A2 × ... An where each Ai is the set of allowed values for αi; all ω are in an m-dimensional "volume" Ω ⊆ ℝm where Ω = Ω1 × Ω2 × ... Ωm and each Ωi ⊆ ℝ is the set of allowed values for ωi, a subset of the real numbers ℝ. For generality n and m are not necessarily equal.

Short answer yes

3.No, we’re being fed technology at a pace that appeases the overlords.

4. Only an overlord has permission to ask that question.

Okay the answer to 1, 3 and 4 are good.

The answer to 2 is good in its conclusion (arguably) and weak in its demonstration of how to improve testability of
said conclusion.

Overall I'm thinking that Scorpius is a townlean here guys!



Question 3 needs to be revised for future low info low testable players (aka Eyes slot replacement):

3 With sufficient technology can all low scope low testability questions be made testable?

Your follow up to 3 is amazingly astute.

If we develop the tech to make everything testable then we run the risk of paradoxical study. Then the Scientific Method becomes a question I’m itself and all hell will break lose. I’ll use the self replicating AI for this answer. We developed that tech which undoubtedly would evolve to make low test ability questions moot. With the introduction of self replicable AI we open the door for our threshold of testable quantum mechanics to rise to unfathomable heights. The paradox lies in with out development.
Are we in danger of over developing to where our projects are continuing with projects that we did not intend.

I circle this around to the opinion that based on what we are doing on a microbiological platform can truly support the theory of limitless expansion.

On 3, agree with what you said. Another follow up to that: The self replicating AI will continue to ask better questions and test them, and it would be an unreasonable assumption that what the AIs are up to coincides with human values and interests. However, will the AIs run into ultimate roadblocks in how far they can get due to inherent restrictions in the laws of physics.

[Frogsterking]

Hey guys! I just worked on this questionnaire with my friend to help with scumhunting! It was built around the idea that mafia forums are a low scope low testability domain.

Here's the "low-scope low-testability scumhunting questionnaire:"

#1 How does the wave function evolve?
#2 Does wave function imply many worlds?
#3 Have we used all the available technology?
#4 Do we live in a simulation?

Scorpius please answer these

#1 For a given system, the choice of which commuting degrees of freedom to use is not unique, and correspondingly the domain of the wave function is also not unique. For instance, it may be taken to be a function of all the position coordinates of the particles over position space, or the momenta of all the particles over momentum space; the two are related by a Fourier transform. Some particles, like electrons and photons, have nonzero spin, and the wave function for such particles include spin as an intrinsic, discrete degree of freedom; other discrete variables can also be included, such as isospin. When a system has internal degrees of freedom, the wave function at each point in the continuous degrees of freedom (e.g., a point in space) assigns a complex number for each possible value of the discrete degrees of freedom (e.g., z-component of spin) – these values are often displayed in a column matrix (e.g., a 2 × 1 column vector for a non-relativistic electron with spin 1⁄2).

#2 As has been demonstrated, the set of all possible wave functions in some representation for a system constitute an in general infinite-dimensional Hilbert space. Due to the multiple possible choices of representation basis, these Hilbert spaces are not unique. One therefore talks about an abstract Hilbert space, state space, where the choice of representation and basis is left undetermined. Specifically, each state is represented as an abstract vector in state space.[41] A quantum state |Ψ⟩ in any representation is generally expressed as a vector

|
Ψ
⟩
=
∑
α
∫
d
m
ω
Ψ
(
α
,
ω
,
t
)
|
α
,
ω
⟩
{\displaystyle |\Psi \rangle =\sum _{\boldsymbol {\alpha }}\int d^{m}\!{\boldsymbol {\omega }}\,\,\Psi ({\boldsymbol {\alpha }},{\boldsymbol {\omega }},t)\,|{\boldsymbol {\alpha }},{\boldsymbol {\omega }}\rangle }
where

|α, ω⟩ the basis vectors of the chosen representation
dmω = dω1dω2...dωm a "differential volume element" in the continuous degrees of freedom
Ψ(α, ω, t) a component of the vector |Ψ⟩, called the wave function of the system
α = (α1, α2, ..., αn) dimensionless discrete quantum numbers
ω = (ω1, ω2, ..., ωm) continuous variables (not necessarily dimensionless)
These quantum numbers index the components of the state vector. More, all α are in an n-dimensional set A = A1 × A2 × ... An where each Ai is the set of allowed values for αi; all ω are in an m-dimensional "volume" Ω ⊆ ℝm where Ω = Ω1 × Ω2 × ... Ωm and each Ωi ⊆ ℝ is the set of allowed values for ωi, a subset of the real numbers ℝ. For generality n and m are not necessarily equal.

Short answer yes

3.No, we’re being fed technology at a pace that appeases the overlords.

4. Only an overlord has permission to ask that question.

Okay the answer to 1, 3 and 4 are good.

The answer to 2 is good in its conclusion (arguably) and weak in its demonstration of how to improve testability of
said conclusion.

Overall I'm thinking that Scorpius is a townlean here guys!



Question 3 needs to be revised for future low info low testable players (aka Eyes slot replacement):

3 With sufficient technology can all low scope low testability questions be made testable?

Your follow up to 3 is amazingly astute.

If we develop the tech to make everything testable then we run the risk of paradoxical study. Then the Scientific Method becomes a question I’m itself and all hell will break lose. I’ll use the self replicating AI for this answer. We developed that tech which undoubtedly would evolve to make low test ability questions moot. With the introduction of self replicable AI we open the door for our threshold of testable quantum mechanics to rise to unfathomable heights. The paradox lies in with out development.
Are we in danger of over developing to where our projects are continuing with projects that we did not intend.

I circle this around to the opinion that based on what we are doing on a microbiological platform can truly support the theory of limitless expansion.

On 3, agree with what you said. Another follow up to that: The self replicating AI will continue to ask better questions and test them, and it would be an unreasonable assumption that what the AIs are up to coincides with human values and interests. However, will the AIs run into ultimate roadblocks in how far they can get due to inherent restrictions in the laws of physics.

And that is when the AI becomes threatening. At least a human can find a “stopping point”, be it brought on by frustration, health, other obligations, human things.

As to where an AI has no reason to stop. Which drops us into the simulation conversation. Are we at the point in the simulation where it can’t figure out the correct homeostasis for the simulation in itself, and instead of resetting. Just throwing more and more problems to contend with to learn how to go about the next one better.

Will the AIs figure out the fundamental nature of reality through brute force algorithms that perfectly model what happens, or will they figure it out through deriving conceptual principles, such as teleological explanations and cause/effect relationships?

Analogy is solving chess by brute force computation versus solving it by having a process that always produces the best move in any given situation, where this process takes into account all the factors that go into making the best move, and does so perfectly.

[Frogsterking]

Scorpius is Town

[Frogsterking]

Scorpius is Town

i am afraid to ask how you came to this conclusion.

VOTE: generalwu

inb4 "wagon too fast!!" and we have another 50 pages of circular back and forth.

It's partly soul read and partly a couple things which were AI.

[Frogsterking]

Did you make that entire series of posts solely for the sake of an AI pun?

No, the pun was a discovery!

[Frogsterking]

Holy crap what the hell did I miss??

Judging by your post just above this one I'd guess you missed the effect of some blackhole at the other end of the universe or something. (and crap it is my friend. Crap it is indeed)

Is there any reason you're unable to answer the questionnaire, Eye? Question 3 has been revised:
"With sufficient technology can all low scope low testability questions be made testable?"

[Frogsterking]

Hey guys! I just worked on this questionnaire with my friend to help with scumhunting! It was built around the idea that mafia forums are a low scope low testability domain.

Here's the "low-scope low-testability scumhunting questionnaire:"

#1 How does the wave function evolve?
#2 Does wave function imply many worlds?
#3 Have we used all the available technology?
#4 Do we live in a simulation?

Scorpius please answer these

VOTE: Frogsterking

This is definitely counterproductive

This is looking for reasons to read a player rather than reading them.

Holy crap what the hell did I miss??

Judging by your post just above this one I'd guess you missed the effect of some blackhole at the other end of the universe or something. (and crap it is my friend. Crap it is indeed)

Is there any reason you're unable to answer the questionnaire, Eye? Question 3 has been revised:
"With sufficient technology can all low scope low testability questions be made testable?"

Yes there is and it's quite simple. It's this shit that I play mafia to get away from. Mafia is a less tense activity that I do for fun to try and rest my brain from that precise type of science (and no I am not a student per say but I am interested in trying to understand these kinds of theories)

Hmm. An expected response is to respond warmly to a topic which is valued and familiar. I agree you have an explanation and i disagree it's "quite simple." In fact it seems like you have a really complex pre-existing relationship with this topic I introduced.

Why aren't u voting Wu?

If that becomes a thing I would.. maybe. I just didn't like frog's distraction bringing in quantum mechanics and waves into the equation so to speak

Or you're pretending to be angry so you don't have to scumhunt

[Frogsterking]

What are your reads in broader detail?
How would you summarize D1 so far?

Townie: fire, ari, tene, vpb, possibly deasvail, possibly yeet
Scummy: fua, nero, eyes

There's a bunch of people in the middle that i havent sorted yet either, but these i feel good on

Was scumreading hem too but i need to reassess now if the claim waa real, i do still sr him on play
Was scumreading dats for a large portion of the game but i think i was tunneled and dont want to vote him anymore, and there were some posts from him.i thought was townie

~

Yeet started the game pushing dats hard and got a bunch of.townreads
Dats made a poor tene vote on like p3 that i founf suspicious, so i voted him, at the time a lot of people were suspicious of him as well and he got wagoned
Hem and ari got into a fight and i think hem's half was a lot worse than ari's
People started trying to condense on hem/wu so we dont have a 4000 post day1, i voted hem
Dont really ger why wu is a wagon tbh, or why we were wagoning him over like scorp frog etc

VOTE: fireisredsir

Skitter can you explain how your read on Fire progressed between 141 and 1386? I can't find it in your ISO.

[Frogsterking]

Yeah, no. This is getting frustrating because I’m 99% sure I was roleblocked and being told that my reads are bad and gaslit when I’m 100% sure I’m vig is making me view this game in an unhealthy mindset. Sorry, but I need to replace out for my own mental health. Peace.

I can empathize with this feeling

[Frogsterking]

@Math

are scum more likely to be on or off wagon?

[Frogsterking]

Skitter can you explain how your read on Fire progressed between 141 and 1386? I can't find it in your ISO.

If you're trying to make a point r.e. cherrypicking, you're doing a poor job of it

My question was not rhetorical I want to see if there is a Townie explanation or not for the lack of visible transformation.

[Frogsterking]

They said “someone who started with F” okay still multiple people. If they intended it to be one fua would have just said the name. Instead Skitter goes why fire and Fua goes along with it.

This is a wild reason to teamread people

~
@frof i like fire because they're making good, cogent points abt the game in a pique-ish manner that wont endear them to anybody. They're trying to solve but arent trying to end up on anyone's 'good' list

Okay this a good start of an answer, can you tell me

when

you noticed these things?

I'm p sure they didnt meant for frog to be in the poe at all, when they said someone who started wirh an F i think they meant exactly fire (and werent thining about frog), but was trying to be oblique for whatever reason

Possible but a stretch.

Why are you defending your scumread?

2569 through 2571 Skitter is demonstrating guilt and it might be AI I need to think about it.

[Frogsterking]

They said “someone who started with F” okay still multiple people. If they intended it to be one fua would have just said the name. Instead Skitter goes why fire and Fua goes along with it.

This is a wild reason to teamread people

~
@frof i like fire because they're making good, cogent points abt the game in a pique-ish manner that wont endear them to anybody. They're trying to solve but arent trying to end up on anyone's 'good' list

Okay this a good start of an answer, can you tell me

when

you noticed these things?

I'm p sure they didnt meant for frog to be in the poe at all, when they said someone who started wirh an F i think they meant exactly fire (and werent thining about frog), but was trying to be oblique for whatever reason

Possible but a stretch.

Why are you defending your scumread?

2569 through 2571 Skitter is demonstrating guilt and it might be AI I need to think about it.

2575* I meant. 2569 expresses guilt and the action of defending fua in 2575 is congruent with guilt. My intuition is telling me it's AI I think but I can't tell which way.

[Frogsterking]

I see no reason why today shouldn't end in the death of 1 of VP, Eyes, Skitter or April.

VOTE: VP

I mean he's prob scum anyways but he's already claimed so low risk, high reward

What's your read on Eyes so far? Not been a whole lot there, struggling to figure out if their frustration with the high post count is genuine town frustration or not.

Malcolm what do you think of Scorpius, they have been doing the same thing ad nauseum. I think they literally put more effort into answering a joke question then trying to solve the entire game.

Look at 2294 and 2361 for reference. Look at the rest of what Scorpius has to say, then come back to me.

That wasn't a joke question. I will respond to this after class.

[Frogsterking]

holy crap i thought i posted more in this game 22 posts wow i'm probably scum

On the bright side at least you're winning the 1v1 with April.

Sorry, couldn't resist.

[Frogsterking]

without fully sticking to it, and there's a case to be made this is what happened

I don't know why I have to "stick" with a read. There was evidence presented that he might have been more in his town meta than his scum meta and that certainly influenced me.

I personally prefer someone to be open to changing reads then stuck with one,it elminates bias.

Yes and for many players their second choice will be more likely to be correct á la the Monty Hall problem.

[Frogsterking]

I'm looking for the diamond in the rough posts. Where are they?

[Frogsterking]

Nearly everyone suspects me to some degree or another, but so far I have produced town-indicative content in response to votes against me. I believe that this suspicion persisting in light of the fact I am scumhunting actively and unafraid to take stances indicates something. I believe that I am seen as weak and eventually pushable because I am newer.

What do you think is town-indicative about your content.

What stances have you been unafraid to take?

I'm not playing this game anymore.

Is this even a question I can reasonably answer? I am tired of talking about myself. I am constantly being hounded for explanations of everything I do by half the game in a way that does not seem to apply to everyone else, and then I'm attacked for being too defensive. In this case, no one will even care about my answer, since if I know something looks town, I could have done it to look town. Why should I bother?

I have offered reads contrary to popular perception on multiple occasions. If you cannot be bothered to go and look, at this point, neither can I. I'm sick of this.

I understand that this sort of process can be frustrating if you're town (or even if you're scum!), but I don't make these posts for no reason. My impression of your gameplay is that it is safe and largely following the momentum of the town. If I am wrong then I need you to prove it. When you say that you have "offered reads contrary to popular perception on multiple occasions" I need you to point it out to me because I don't see it.

You have said that you think scum is trying to mis-elim you, but I don't have a strong impression from you of who

are

the scum trying to miselim you. Regarding me and fire, arguably the two main players have been pushing you: You gave subtle indication of thinking fire might be scum early on but never went anywhere with it and most recently have expressed a strong townread. Apart from expressing that one thing I did looked town, you have not made much mention of a read of me. Is it a coincidence that myself and fire are also players that do not seem to be widely suspected?

The vote on STD came after I pointed out that you were largely following momentum, but it very much matches the safe play that I have expected from you. Voting a lower-activity player for pressure is not something scum would expect to be seen as controversial.

Deas:

I was scumreading fua on this basis earlier for their poorly thought out attack on me. I am now ignoring the slot due to its vig claim. I am becoming concerned about you, if silently, because you're providing yet another vector by which I am forced to spend all my time defending myself, or so would be the case if I continue to play this game the way you want me to. fire made a strong push against me earlier and I scumread him for it, but in light of his convincing insights on fua, I have rethought this. In fact, that he is not at all concerned with how he is perceived may be a good sign.

One example of my being contrary was taking monkey's side against Aristeia. I was also one of the first to go after Datisi, but since everyone seemed to think I only did so because Yeet did first, I do not expect this to resonate. I feel there are likely more examples but again cannot be arsed to look for them and if you wish to park your vote on me for that, so be it.

But overall, at this point, it's the softer and more timid shading of me coming from other places that I'm more concerned about. I'm being kept in the elim pool and saved for later. No, I do not have an exhaustive list of who is guilty of this. My thinking is evolving in real time. Surely I don't read as someone who showed up to today with a plan given what a mess my suspicions have been.

Thanks for that, Enchant.

[Frogsterking]

Malcolm what is the point you're trying to make right now and is it addressed toward luminary or other players who are considering voting luminary?

[Frogsterking]

Luminary are you pushing Malcolm now, what is happening?

[Frogsterking]

Luminary are you pushing Malcolm now, what is happening?

No. I am merely being frustrated.

You definitely appear to be frustrated, is it because you keep getting voted and you believe it's unwarranted?

[Frogsterking]

Malcolm what is the point you're trying to make right now and is it addressed toward luminary or other players who are considering voting luminary?

My point is that there are continual inconsistencies in Luminary's play and that these hint toward being mafia. They accuse Deas of "protecting friends" but don't elaborate on who this is. They accuse others of being lazy for a Scorpious wagon and yet lumped their vote and most of their suspicion on STD on the basis of inactivity alone. They regularly deflect when accusations are thrown their away to try and move the discussion away from the issue at-hand with the continual idea basically every player questioning them is being dishonest.

This looks TvT, sorry Malcolm. I think it's possible some of these things from luminary are a result of being distracted from getting pushed. If it makes you feel any better I think you won the 1v1 because of the stronger rhetoric and organization of your posts.

[Frogsterking]

It seems like luminary is putting several players on tilt, even players who normally don't go on tilt.

[Frogsterking]

Unfortunately I don't think it's AI in fact I think the clashing and the recurring wagons indicate the slot is town.

[Frogsterking]

That's too bad because I really like the composition of the wagon on luminary.

[Frogsterking]

@luminary

Are you being evasive and passive aggressive and stuff? That will destroy any teamwork potential we have.

[Frogsterking]

Luminary are you pushing Malcolm now, what is happening?

I will say, Frogster's aloofness in this game is very different from his town play in the last game.

What's up with that Frog? You've seemed not super engaged with the flow of the game for awhile now.

I've gotten this feedback many times before in games or social situations after the size of the group is increased. I'm experiencing heightened feelings of vulnerability in this game so far compared to other games because of the high speed and large player count. It's observant of you but NAI and possibly scum motivated to push.

[Frogsterking]

I've gotten this feedback many times before in games or social situations after the size of the group is increased. I'm experiencing heightened feelings of vulnerability in this game so far compared to other games because of the high speed and large player count. It's observant of you but NAI and possibly scum motivated to push.

Do you have meta that backs this up?

Yes, Noraa is hyperposting as scum in this game to dominate the thread and create confusion. The speed of the game became much faster than the setup would indicate:
viewtopic.php?f=50&t=84085&start=1625

The game is chaotic to the extent there is a point in the game when the mod is unable to determine whether or not there has been a hammer. You can get some sense of the chaos by reading the mod iso:
viewtopic.php?p=12086810&user_select%5B ... #p12086810



Scum were planning to case me because of my decreased presence in the thread making me seem like a good mislim target. Scum tunnel me though as the last town power role and they convince themselves my behavior change is because of my role:
viewtopic.php?f=94&t=84243&start=25

Scum are so convinced my decreased presence is due to my role they make a play that puts them in autolose if they're unable to kill the final TPR. Town then wins the game because I'm killed and our last power role is able to survive the night.

Compared to the above example, there is more structure in this game because Mizzy and theworst are able to stay on top of the votes, but there is far more chaos underlying that structure here than what I experienced in the above example, so I imagine the change may be more noticeable and seem even more pushable than it did before.

[Frogsterking]

I just finished a game with Enchant I might be able to help read that slot.

[Frogsterking]

VP, didn't you say you would address cape's case on you? Have you done so?

Hello? Is anyone home?

VP also needs to address my case on his case.

[Frogsterking]

i thought fua was v scummy and didn't really believe the claim anyway, so i will gladly join the wagon when the time comes. im just not really convinced that the time is now

Same

[Frogsterking]

I did a quick skim and did not find the above. I also recall you acknowledging this and saying you would address it when you had more time.

Did it look like this:

Compared to the above example, there is more structure in this game because Mizzy and theworst are able to stay on top of the votes, but there is far more chaos underlying that structure here than what I experienced in the above example, so I imagine the change may be more noticeable and seem even more pushable than it did before.

I'll give these a read today. thanks.

[Frogsterking]

VP did you read my post yet?

[Frogsterking]

VP did you read my post yet?

No. Did you answer my question of who your scum reads are and why yet?

I want to see your answer first.

[Frogsterking]

can you answer *my* question though?

Me?

[Frogsterking]

can you answer *my* question though?

Me?

Sure!

[Frogsterking]

Scum were planning to case me because of my decreased presence in the thread making me seem like a good mislim target. Scum tunnel me though as the last town power role and they convince themselves my behavior change is because of my role:
viewtopic.php?f=94&t=84243&start=25

Scum are so convinced my decreased presence is due to my role they make a play that puts them in autolose if they're unable to kill the final TPR. Town then wins the game because I'm killed and our last power role is able to survive the night.

Oh I see you're trying to point me to specific moments in this single game.

Eh, I don't think your play in that game is that analogous to this one. This game you linked is also 2 years old. Do you have any more current examples of games where you were town and lost for reads/asking a lot of softball questions without pushing in any directions?

First of all, I'm not lost for reads I've nearly PoE'd half the table. Second, I gave you the best example I can, I think I've completed less than ten forum mafia games.

[Frogsterking]

Can you explain for me? I wasn't in that game.

less than 24 hours on the clock for d1, cape makes a huge wallcase on me and votes me. five minutes later (with nobody's input), he unvotes me because he went back and realized something i said actually made sense from a town pov and he might be wrong. cape got immediately townread for the case>reeval (the case itself was rly bad though), and we ended up yeeting both scum d1 and d2.

Thank you for strengthening my townread on Cape.

[Frogsterking]

how does that strengthen it for THIS GAME?

pedit: @frogs

Because that story sounds similar to their play here

[Frogsterking]

how does that strengthen it for THIS GAME?

pedit: @frogs

Because that story sounds similar to their play here

explain this to me like i'm 5.

please.

Their town meta is impulsive and thoughtful and they write a lot sometimes. If they're scum it's good acting, I think it's difficult to fake. I'll be less willing to townread them if they have a performing arts background.

[Frogsterking]

can you answer *my* question though?

That's too bad because I really like the composition of the wagon on luminary.

who do you *do* want to vote?

First of all, I'm not lost for reads I've nearly PoE'd half the table.

Not Voting (2): Frogsterking

First of all, I'm not lost for reads I've nearly PoE'd half the table.

Can you like remind me who your scum reads are? I read your game first, which I guess is a condition for answering this question.

I was being cagey to give you a chance to do something townie before I tipped you off.

VOTE: VP Baltar

I don't know if this is a bad town push or a scum who pr reads me or just wants to pad the bodycount.

[Frogsterking]

can you answer *my* question though?

That's too bad because I really like the composition of the wagon on luminary.

who do you *do* want to vote?

First of all, I'm not lost for reads I've nearly PoE'd half the table.

Not Voting (2): Frogsterking

First of all, I'm not lost for reads I've nearly PoE'd half the table.

Can you like remind me who your scum reads are? I read your game first, which I guess is a condition for answering this question.

I was being cagey to give you a chance to do something townie before I tipped you off.

VOTE: VP Baltar

I don't know if this is a bad town push or a scum who pr reads me or just wants to pad the bodycount.

And full disclosure Yeet, Datisi, Eyes, Skitter, Dragons, and April are the other slots I still need to sort. I'm optimistic the Enchant slot will be killed or mech-cleared before I have to figure out their alignment.

[Frogsterking]

btw can we kill enchant pls he's like blatantly scum who's coasting on a bullshit vig claim

you could have like kept your vote there instead of throwing your vote around to try to mimic how you think town plays.

b/c its whats town is supposed to do, duh?

LOL

yeah it's a very lvl 1 thought process

You've said so.

[Frogsterking]

before I tipped you off.

Lol OK yeah, I'm sure.

When did you start scum reading me?

When Malcolm was patiently explaining to you why the meta read doesn't make sense and you didn't bother to fake any kind of recognition or reaction

[Frogsterking]

Eyes how are you townreading VP and Dragons?

[Frogsterking]

Why the enchant hard town read?

I don't believe scum claim vig on day one just for the lolz. It's a very risky play that could be CC'd or result in them getting shot by the real vig or them getting yeeted soon enough when there is no other kill at night. It just doesn't make sense to me that fua was scum and claimed that unprompted

it wasn't really unprompted, they were the leading wagon and were gaining votes, and had 6 on them at the time

If VP flips scum today is there any reason Nero, Cape, you, me and luminary can't form a town core?

[Frogsterking]

I think I have gotten myself into a tunnel and after a reassessment I am no longer sure of this read.

UNVOTE: Tenebro

Reading through tenebro’ Iso again, I am more inclined to think that the dismissive nature is an unhelpful way of communicating, but I don’t actually think it lines up with the scum-tenebro image that I had created for myself. If I thought that tenebro was scum trying to blend in and appease, then their approach to suspicion in fact does the opposite.

I am happy to discuss with anyone regarding this, and would particularly be interested if anyone thinks I am making a mistake in backing off this, but I think it’s more likely that tenebro-scum was a world I wanted to be true rather than one that actually is true.

Yes I think this is a good unvote I think luminary is town and more likely to receive negative attention than other players for non-AI reasons. I believe it's the best explanation.

[Frogsterking]

@Enchant:

Eyes how are you townreading VP and Dragons?

They type in English so I read them left to right. lol

But really .. I already explained the VP read twice and nothing has changed. VP gave me no reason to reconsider my read there. Dragon is.. let's call it an inexplicable read for now.

[Frogsterking]

before I tipped you off.

Lol OK yeah, I'm sure.

When did you start scum reading me?

When Malcolm was patiently explaining to you why the meta read doesn't make sense and you didn't bother to fake any kind of recognition or reaction

I stand by my points on your meta read, but as someone who suspects VP I don't think their response was particularly terrible, there are some subtle differences in play there even if the overall style is similar.

I'm probably biased against VP's point and think it's worse than it is. I think VP's meta push against me is evidence of VP's alignment in a circumstantial way because of how helpful it is for scum. I can alternatively see it as being motivated by Townie Paranoia and I was hoping VP would react in some way I could rule them out as scum instead. Unfortunately I don't see any signs of uncertainty in the way VP has dealt with other viewpoints on my slot and I don't feel like VP is genuinely trying to sort my slot.

[Frogsterking]

Frog, you know I was making fun of dats in 3343, right?

You've said so.

nothing prevents Cape from hammering as scum, true and scum do QH to end the day and stop discussion but it was p 98 and the day was just dragging on. Wu was the defacto elimination at that point. I'm also sorta buying into the "I didn't know I was hammering" thing.

Yeah I thought those comments directed toward Dats were funny.

I remember seeing no one announced e- on that page so I thought it made the hammer being a mistake more believable. I think it's also possible it was OK for Town win rate because it kept the game moving. I thought fua's vote looked the worst of the three on that page.

[Frogsterking]

I do not think DV and Fire are both scum.

Is there any reason why they can't both be scum or is this an intuitive read?

[Frogsterking]

STD/Malcolm still my highest scum reads. There's probably one in the main mix of things, I just don't know where it's at currently.

i think STD is town, he seems pure to me, but i could see a world where malcolm is maf

This is pretty much exactly what I was going to say.

(I don’t mean to be so closely aligned with Fire on reads, it just happened that way)

Can someone explain the town reads on Dragons? I'm pretty sure I've played with them and they've acted this way as both alignments.

[Frogsterking]

I do not think DV and Fire are both scum.

Is there any reason why they can't both be scum or is this an intuitive read?

Might be a weak reasoning, but I don't believe DeasVeil teams up with Fire's reads there if they are both scum/scum. They could be T/S or T/T, sure, but yeah, that's a weird partner comment that I don't see them doing with the current gamestate.

So while there is some reasoning, mixed in with my reads on their individual slots prior to that, I would say it's mostly intuitive, but I've got a strong intuition where at the very least, I like to bring up for my own ISO that this is what I thought in that moment, if that makes sense.

Later in game, when doing some deeper puzzle solves with more information, I can recheck my ISO to see what I was feeling at the time, and why, and what it feels like with more info.

Yes and this way you're collecting metrics over time on the other players using your intuition which could be helpful in the endgame as a part of a town block.

I saw you're both a little paranoid about my slot and think my vibe is townie, how comfortable do you think you would be overall trusting my slot if I was still alive in the endgame?

[Frogsterking]

before I tipped you off.

Lol OK yeah, I'm sure.

When did you start scum reading me?

When Malcolm was patiently explaining to you why the meta read doesn't make sense and you didn't bother to fake any kind of recognition or reaction

What? I your iso in the game he linked and explained why that is not the same as your play here.

But follow up, why were you afraid of "tipping me" when your vote is just in reaction to me scum reading you? What was your concern there?

The concern was that I figured you would tunnel me regardless of your alignment once I voted you, so it wouldn't help me to sort your alignment. For example:

April, when you have a minute, I'd love your take on frogster

UNVOTE:
VOTE: frogster

More comfortable with this lim I think.

I don't think any of this is AI because I think you would say this stuff as either alignment.

If, before I had voted you, VP, you had reacted to my points about the meta tell you're pushing in a way that indicated you put a lot of thought into your argument and you're seriously considering what I'm saying then I would've considered that potentially AI for you being town. By answering your question or voting you right away then I would take away an opportunity for you to demonstrate AI information.

Furthermore, the reason I specifically chose to try and get AI information from you is because the way my reads are forming this game it seems an effective way to reach a full solve is to find a couple more townreads out of several specific slots, and you're one of those slots.

[Frogsterking]

What is the case on Ari? I'm going to give up on reading pages of spam shitting from a bunch of people.

she refused to do what math told her to (push someone that was on the math/monkey wagon) and she voted scorp

I sort of figured this was Math being loud.

I'm utterly confused how people can look at the Wu wagon falling apart a second time and not see that as scummy. By all accounts, Wu should be LHF that scum are eager to hammer through, yet it has stalled repeatedly at the cusp of being serious -- even though Nero and others were flipping a shit earlier today about how scummy Wu is and how much they wanted him dead if it were not for people defending Wu. If at any point you said Wu is scum...WHY THE FUCK ARE YOU NOT VOTING WU.

Math is getting taken for a ride again because he is loud and refuses to listen to anything but his own theories about the game. Math, I'm trying to work with you here. We will get a lot of information out of this Wu flip. Please work with me.

I saw Math say somethin about HEM making some kind of convincing case about Ari in their PT....If it's good, then fucking post it. If it is anything like the arguments HEM was making earlier in the game, I am skeptical.

This game has quickly become a clown show of terrible play and it is annoying me.

This has been bothering me because I've been speculating with my friend about the probability of being voted D1. It seems on the surface that players will be more likely to be voted as town than as scum. This was my assumption going into D1. It reminds me of the Salem Witch trials logic: if they don't drown then they're a witch. I think this is an easy mistake to make as town, but it's definitely not townie.

There’s a wagon on Ari for a reason
Stop focusing on me if you’re town.

WHAT IS THE REASON FOR THE ARI WAGON?????????

Like I asked for this case more than once, and "she argued with Hem and doesn't vote WU" is not a fucking case. So ELI5


And I'm talking to you because you're 50% of the posts in a LARGE GAME since you entered. If you would chill the fuck out and stop trying to big dick energy the whole game, we could land somewhere good today. There have been 12+ pages added since I got up 5 hours ago, and you can't tell me that is quality work happening in those pages because I read half of them before I had to come here to the future and plead with you to have some sense.

I'm looking back at the Ari/April and Wu wagons now that April is posting. At first I thought that this post was VP defending Ari/April and pushing Wu, but now I wonder if this is an attempt to fan the flames on the Ari/April push by inducing Math to reiterate the points over and over again. I'm imagining VP as scum hoping to create a town v town wagon cross for D1 and only be blamed for the push on Wu. I don't know if this is a tactic that's been used by scum!VP in the past or if this is characteristic of VP's scum game, I've only played with town!VP.

April pointed out that they believe:

1) Scum are lying low this game
2) Scum are going to take different sides and try to create distance

First of all, I think it's good play on April's part to provide some concrete evidence for this assessment or just admit it's a purely intuitive read of the gamestate. Second, I can see a more balanced scumteam where VP is imparting influence on the gamethread pushing limbait slots or TPR reads while the other scum are lying low and distancing themselves from VP. This lines up well with my townreads so far, the events of D1 and VP's current attempt to start a wagon on me based off a weaker meta read.

And full disclosure Yeet, Datisi, Eyes, Skitter, Dragons, and April are the other slots I still need to sort.

Sorry for the late follow up (juggling work stuff while trying to stay up to date with this game is alot), am I correct in understanding that you think all the scum are in this pool and me? You're town sorting everyone else, correct?

Yes. I don't like townhunting as a goto I just feel like there are a lot of posts and conflicts in this game and I keep getting townreads. I also don't know about the fua slot, I'm hoping Enchant will be mech cleared or eat a night kill.

[Frogsterking]

I don't like townhunting as a goto I just feel like there are a lot of posts and conflicts in this game and I keep getting townreads.

What do you mean by "conflicts in this game"?

Arguments and fights

[Frogsterking]

I don't like townhunting as a goto I just feel like there are a lot of posts and conflicts in this game and I keep getting townreads.

What do you mean by "conflicts in this game"?

Arguments and fights

Hrm. Trying to understand your thinking here. What makes the fighting in this game different from any other game?

Absolutely nothing other than the volume of it (there are more permutations of 1v1s) and the scale (more proponents arguing for or against major wagons.) I guess I'm paying attention to the 1v1s rather than the major wagons. I'm getting townreads because I'm identifying smaller TvT situations.

[Frogsterking]

Cape do you think scum are more likely to be at the top, middle or bottom of the PoE?

[Frogsterking]

It's possible your play so far serves a larger purpose, luminary. You've been involved in so many OMGUS it caused me to believe not only that you're town but some of the players you fought against as well.

PEdit:

PoE by table-wide level of suspicion.

[Frogsterking]

2675 I'm reading more thoroughly than I did earlier, Cape (and VP I guess.) The second half about the hood is making sense to me, the first half I couldn't follow yet.

[Frogsterking]

ok, my bitch ass laptop decided to not connect to the internet so phoneskimming time

looking at scorp's iso in isolation (lol), definitely a scum contender. this dude has done jack shit all game. i think the tell i made on him on d1, that he's not even TRYING to appear townie, is valid, but not insanely so as he was aware that refuge in audacity is a possible defense.

i can def see scorp being scum *if* the rest of his team in a pretty good position. because i think scum is more likely to be lazy if the game seems to be going fine, or if it seems like their partners have it together. (thought goes to umlaut in that one mini normal where he started being lazy when mathblade replaced into his team)

as said, if he'd scum, i think we're lowkey fucked since that prob means there's some deepwolves or powerwolves or whatever. i think nero is a strong contender should scorp flip red; other than fitting with my bullshit gamestate reads, i think he also tried to make an eyes wagon a thing when math was trying to wagon scorp?

also, the fact that (1) there is absolutely nothing townie about scorp (2) there's still practically no wagon on him despite that and despite a MASON pushing him makes me feel like the game isn't a fan of his wagon (though i'd have to run another check to see if anyone was actually properly pulling away from him)

so, like, in total? 6.5/10, my gamestate reads aren't always great, but i would not mind a wagon here

This is interesting, I'm not buying the argument on Scorpius so I'm wondering if the reverse of your gamestate read is true and there are no powerwolves or deepwolves. This implies to me a gamestate where there are choice mislim targets available and the scum are scattered between the bottom and middle of the PoE.

[Frogsterking]

I don't feel comfortable with Wu being described as a low utility player; I believed random utility was all Wu had to offer. I would describe Enchant as a low utility player. I thought Wu was a player who could spontaneously provide utility at pretty much any point in the game by striking a conversation with a low info slot and getting them to open up with AI information or by adding lightness to the game making it less stressful and easier to find motivation to solve. I didn't see Wu as a player who would help with the gamesolving by identifying the useful information generated as being AI and persuading others, I thought they just had a chance to provide utility by making more AI information available at random points in the game. The contrast between my conception of Wu's slot and a true low utility slot would be someone likely to provide nothing while inducing townies to rage or avoid looking at the game thread (like Ari.)

Ari is actually a more interesting counter example to Wu than someone like Enchant because Ari was a player who could be expected to assist with the gamesolving and identifying potential AI information and was also a low utility player because they discouraged other players and made the thread unreadable. This is another part of why I was so opposed to the Wu execution, with this many players I was concerned about a "too many chefs in the kitchen" situation where a handful of active posters thunderdome each other dogmatically and there's no listening or potential for organic conversation and the less active townies are unmotivated to become more engaged.

[Frogsterking]

Eyes are you proposing a Nero wagon?

[Frogsterking]

Eyes, are you saying in 3650 that Dragons is less calm when they roll scum?

[Frogsterking]

I wanted to ask Enchant a few questions

[Frogsterking]

Did Eyes answer my question about Dragons? I have no idea how to read Dragons.

[Frogsterking]

I have no idea how to read Dragons.

Spoiler:

Eyes, are you saying in 3650 that Dragons is less calm when they roll scum?

No. I'm just describing STD's play as I see it in this game. I do not claim to have meta on them.

Okay so it's solely an intuitive read on Dragons or is there something concrete you saw you can link to?

[Frogsterking]

like I can't say the the L word but people can say "scumfuck" and have 10 different accounts,just weird sometimes..

That word is definitely hurtful to some folks.

But if it makes you feel any better, this is the only account I've really played on. No alts here!

Flavor is open about his alts at least, so it's not too annoying.

I have no problem abiding with the wording, just wish the rules on alts were stricter,but I digress,this is post game convo.

What do you have against alts

1 or 2 I get...

But this site is so past game meta focused,I just disagree with it, doesn't make me right about it, I just am not a fan.

At least you're complaining about something which makes the game harder as town, that could be AI.

[Frogsterking]

Interesting. Galron, I had a question for skitter I was waiting for her to answer when she left, is it possible for you to answer or no?

[Frogsterking]

*sees inanity of page 1*

*bolts to VCs*

*sees inanity of page 1*

*bolts to VCs*

Why even read page one we all knew you were just gonna do that anyway

Yeah it's potentially a LAMIST statement to make with a built in excuse to not share thoughts.

I think luminary suggested the first 60 pages and then skipping to when April becomes active which I'd like because Titus' slot is one I really need to sort.

An alternative approach, not really reading at all and providing fresh reads as they come, could be helpful for scum hunting but would be more difficult for us to read Titus' slot itself.

[Frogsterking]

Using a quick view of the VCs, I would look at Datisi and fua closer. Not superb reasoning but developing reads on those two would give reads on the whole.

My current theory is that scum were sheeping people to punish controversy and just placing easy votes. While it's possible, it's rare for scum to be aggressive when they don't need to be.

Math's prior poster likely provoked a scum vote or two not because of his opinions but what he was saying. Such callousness would make me want to vote him out if he wasn't a mason.

Can you explain why your analysis is implicating Datisi and fua?

Also does your method of VCA become more helpful the more slots are flipped?

[Frogsterking]

The last statement in 4029 applies to Dragon I think. It's possible Dragon's approach to the game is helpful for town!Dragon for his scum hunting and unhelpful for others to determine Dragon's alignment.

[Frogsterking]

scum do post during RVS so it's possible to find scum during "RVS"

can we kill VP now?

I'm worried shinier topics are going to distract from the VP wagon.

*sees inanity of page 1*

*bolts to VCs*

*sees inanity of page 1*

*bolts to VCs*

Why even read page one we all knew you were just gonna do that anyway

Yeah it's potentially a LAMIST statement to make with a built in excuse to not share thoughts.

I think luminary suggested the first 60 pages and then skipping to when April becomes active which I'd like because Titus' slot is one I really need to sort.

An alternative approach, not really reading at all and providing fresh reads as they come, could be helpful for scum hunting but would be more difficult for us to read Titus' slot itself.

Ooh fresh meat.

I'm not an easy player to read. I just think differently. I feel I'm pretty transparent but I'm the only one who feels this way.

I try to read people by what they do as opposed to what they say. I care more about why than the what. So early pregame RVS generally makes my eyes bleed. Occasionally I do try, but that try is legit NAI.

This post is fair because I wasn't asking any questions in 4029 so Titus is like mirroring me which makes me think town a little bit (or a deliberate pocketing attempt.)

Using a quick view of the VCs, I would look at Datisi and fua closer. Not superb reasoning but developing reads on those two would give reads on the whole.

My current theory is that scum were sheeping people to punish controversy and just placing easy votes. While it's possible, it's rare for scum to be aggressive when they don't need to be.

Math's prior poster likely provoked a scum vote or two not because of his opinions but what he was saying. Such callousness would make me want to vote him out if he wasn't a mason.

Can you explain why your analysis is implicating Datisi and fua?

Also does your method of VCA become more helpful the more slots are flipped?

They're major wagons at various gamestates. Knowing the options scum have suggests where they might want to be on the wagon.

Absolutely yes. I'm using it now to just get feet wet. The more we know about options, the more we can tell about an agenda.

For instance, assuming Math is a mason, then why would scum shoot monkey over Math? What does that say? Votes can and do tell a similar story.

Okay so you think Datisi and fua seem scummy because they were viable mislim targets who weren't being pushed very much?

As for HEM and Math I was looking at that earlier and the only difference that really stood out to me was that HEM was pretty vocal about sortng Yeet and even joined my vanity wagon for a little while and Math wasn't vocal about investigating Yeet.

@Math

Are you good at reading your sister?

[Frogsterking]

HEM was pretty vocal about sortng Yeet and even joined my vanity wagon for a little while

What do you mean by vanity wagon?

I felt like I was the only one voting for Yeet most of the day. I think I was the only voter when HEM joined me.

[Frogsterking]

Put another way a majority of the game TRs VP and a majority of the game TRs Scorpious
So by numbers they aren’t happening.

So best to try something new

I will vote Malcom or scorpious here soon since no one is joining the fire wagon. Kind of want to give them another day or two here to prove towniness.

Give who time to prove towniness?

[Frogsterking]

I don't know how to read Galron at all. I'm guessing that's who VP is referring to in 4182

LOL @ the answer in 4053

I don't see anything that's AI to me in the last few pages. I'm guessing most likely overall we hit correctly on fua/ Enchant D1 and their fake claim is kind of slowing the game down right now. That's the most logical way I can describe the way this game has progressed.

I'll reevaluate my townlean on Scorpius and my scumread on VP and post my results if I think my analysis is fruitful.

I think I'll evaluate April and Dragons alignment based on the way their reads flip. I'm going with this approach because I think they can both get good reads as town, I don't think I have any levels on them through "social deduction" and I think they both keep their cards close to their chest as either alignment.

On that note I don't think Nero or fire are keeping their cards to their chest AT ALL this game. For example Nero was like trolling his scumread Dats about their voting patterns and Nero seems to have been pressing people in the hood thread all game which I'm not sure is most scum players first impulse or second impulse to do. 4184 I think is a genuine mistake because I remembered Math voting VP like one time and I couldn't remember Math repeating that they town read VP a bunch of times. I think fire is writing a lot of content and has been doing so since the start of the game pretty consistently, but not so consistently I think they're scum and just making it up; in fact fire seems almost reckless sometimes with their posts and I feel like fire conducts analysis and then just slams it all down on the table.

[Frogsterking]

I'm looking at the last few pages trying to process. It just looks like VP was a hit and the other wagons are BS? I think Galron is the most likely to flip scum of the counterwagons and Galron has also been a frequent mislim target in my games with him.

[Frogsterking]

VOTE: Galron E-1

i think this is better than malcolm.

I agree it's better than Malcolm.

I'm looking at the last few pages trying to process. It just looks like VP was a hit and the other wagons are BS? I think Galron is the most likely to flip scum of the counterwagons and Galron has also been a frequent mislim target in my games with him.

Galron is not a miselim

I agree VP was a hit
VP defended Galron’s crappy “Math is a TR” post when he knew I was a mason. He was faking reads.

LOL is that how scum!Galron plays?

This is so frustrating

VP what should I do?

I think just let today play out. Playing the long game is probably more important.

Is this as easy as VP Galron Yeet Boon? Lmao

If both VP and Yeet are scum my ego is going to SOAR

[Frogsterking]

This is so frustrating

VP what should I do?

I think just let today play out. Playing the long game is probably more important.

Is this as easy as VP Galron Yeet Boon? Lmao

The thought that this would even cross your mind is astounding to me, and you entertaining it as an actual solve makes me feel like you’ve never played mafia before

Actually this solve would make a lot of sense with the HEM kill since HEM was more susp of Yeet D1 than Math was.

[Frogsterking]

VOTE: Galron E-1

i think this is better than malcolm.

Scummy

is it too late to yeet yeet

VOTE: Yeet

Yeet Yeet

[Frogsterking]

Oh Yeet is probably making obvtown moves right now. Your on the naughty list Save The Dragons for shading Yeet

Oh Yeet is probably making obvtown moves right now. Your on the naughty list Save The Dragons for shading Yeet

are you reading the same game i'm reading

Yeah Cape you're seeing something I'm not, can you explain quickly?

[Frogsterking]

Okay who do we have enough players online right now to guarantee a lim on? Galron can be guaranteed to happen, I don't want a Malcolm flip, Math is saying no to Yeet, can VP still happen?

[Frogsterking]

VOTE: VP

I want VP > Galron

[Frogsterking]

can VP still happen?

doubt it. I would like to hear words from Titus and Gal. I think we still have time on the clock.

VOTE: Galron e-1

I'm just going to set up hammer then because Gal and Titus have had like a week to post more AI stuff. And if VP isn't happening Galron is a better lim than Malcolm or Scorp.

And if it was one you don’t wait for less than 24 hrs

he didn't wait, he did it immediately

Galron is scum

We don’t have time for a fucking flash wagon

We need to elim scum.

Yeet is not claiming an inno ffs he said not 100%

I think if the team contains VP then Galron needs to flip scum for us to win because otherwise it will be even more difficult to get VP limmed with 2 less townies alive. I'm a little paranoid because Galron appeared scummy in multiple previous games I played with him and he was town.

[Frogsterking]

Of course math is rolefishing lol. Ffs. This game.

Pedit - fire, sorry I fought with you. And thanking you for towning. Would lim frogster still

VP trying to pocket fire now

[Frogsterking]

Oh Yeet is probably making obvtown moves right now. Your on the naughty list Save The Dragons for shading Yeet

Oh Yeet is probably making obvtown moves right now. Your on the naughty list Save The Dragons for shading Yeet

are you reading the same game i'm reading

Yeah Cape you're seeing something I'm not, can you explain quickly?

I can explain at whatever pace I want to because day doesn't end for a good like 7 hours.

Though I guess this is coming from the guy who lolhammered day 1 so... fine

Yeet pushed me at the start of day 2 right? They got off me because they were thinking that me & VP were TvT which I suppose is a reasonable thought, I mean VP wasn't towning until later, but okay.

Then their insistence that Galron must be town is a little confusing given their trajectory on skitter as a whole, but it's so weird that it's like really towny

Okay i understand the tell you're observing here, wouldn't Yeet do the same thing as scum though?

[Frogsterking]

That reminds me also I thought I saw a tell from VP where they mixed up their reads

[Frogsterking]

VOTE: galron

front half of this wagon is good, back half is shifty, but this seems more likely to hit scum than Malcom flip.

front half of this wagon is good, back half is shifty, but this seems more likely to hit scum than Malcom flip.

Front half? I am town now?

I think galron is more likely to flip scum based on his flaky play since coming into the game, and I don't think two scum in the hood, so that would make you town.

Here, VP flipped his read from a hard scumread on Cape to a hard townread on Cape, it's not consistent with VP's outted reads and is scum motivated.

[Frogsterking]

VOTE: galron

front half of this wagon is good, back half is shifty, but this seems more likely to hit scum than Malcom flip.

front half of this wagon is good, back half is shifty, but this seems more likely to hit scum than Malcom flip.

Front half? I am town now?

I think galron is more likely to flip scum based on his flaky play since coming into the game, and I don't think two scum in the hood, so that would make you town.

Here, VP flipped his read from a hard scumread on Cape to a hard townread on Cape, it's not consistent with VP's outted reads and is scum motivated.

UNVOTE: Galron

It looks like VP is scum in the hood and being opportunistic for a mis hammer

[Frogsterking]

VOTE: galron

front half of this wagon is good, back half is shifty, but this seems more likely to hit scum than Malcom flip.

front half of this wagon is good, back half is shifty, but this seems more likely to hit scum than Malcom flip.

Front half? I am town now?

I think galron is more likely to flip scum based on his flaky play since coming into the game, and I don't think two scum in the hood, so that would make you town.

Here, VP flipped his read from a hard scumread on Cape to a hard townread on Cape, it's not consistent with VP's outted reads and is scum motivated.

UNVOTE: Galron

It looks like VP is scum in the hood and being opportunistic for a mis hammer

VOTE: VP

please dont kill another limbait target have some courage and vote VP

[Frogsterking]

@Frogsterking,

Why not Malcom?

I thought Malcolm was kind of townie D2?

[Frogsterking]

limbait target

You're saying you're limbait? Who is this referring to?

Galron is limbait

He is a bit. I worry about a noob elimination but not enough to no eliminate here.

I think the wagons are limbait vs newb. I think Malcolm's posts are too well written to be noob.

[Frogsterking]

@all

If Malcolm flips town, who is the scum in the hood (if any?)

If Malcolm flips scum, who is the scum in the hood (if any?)

[Frogsterking]

@all

If Malcolm flips town, who is the scum in the hood (if any?)

If Malcolm flips scum, who is the scum in the hood (if any?)

There's a hood? Who is in it?

[Frogsterking]

part of me does just want a Malcolm flip so if he flips town like I think he will we can just like kill everyone on it b/c I bet its chock full of scum

4457 and 4463 make me think Galron will flip town too. I still don't understand how the Malcolm wagon got to the point it did.

[Frogsterking]

VOTE: VP

If Math and Nero switch back that gets VP up to e-2 I think. Scum!VP flip for D2 is definitely still on the table, and I think it implies town!fire going forward because of VP's attempts to pocket fire in 4700, 4705 and 4709.

[Frogsterking]

i forgot that masons are given a list of alignments along with their role pm, mb

I like you.

Titus and VP now both caught trying to pocket fire EoD FYI, switch wagons to VP.

[Frogsterking]

i forgot that masons are given a list of alignments along with their role pm, mb

I like you.

Titus and VP now both caught trying to pocket fire EoD FYI, switch wagons to VP.

It's pointless for them to do so.

Fire's cozy in my pocket.

LOL half the Malcolm wagon is trying to pocket fire

[Frogsterking]

I want to talk about Dease a little bit before D3 ends

[Frogsterking]

I want to talk about Dease a little bit before D3 ends

Respond to my post about you and why you joined and abandoned the galron wagon.

I thought Yeet lied about softs up until now when I saw their flip. My change of vote EoD off of Galron was because I read your iso and saw that you read flipped onto him making me think he was town.

[Frogsterking]

VOTE: galron

front half of this wagon is good, back half is shifty, but this seems more likely to hit scum than Malcom flip.

front half of this wagon is good, back half is shifty, but this seems more likely to hit scum than Malcom flip.

Front half? I am town now?

I think galron is more likely to flip scum based on his flaky play since coming into the game, and I don't think two scum in the hood, so that would make you town.

Here, VP flipped his read from a hard scumread on Cape to a hard townread on Cape, it's not consistent with VP's outted reads and is scum motivated.

VOTE: galron

front half of this wagon is good, back half is shifty, but this seems more likely to hit scum than Malcom flip.

front half of this wagon is good, back half is shifty, but this seems more likely to hit scum than Malcom flip.

Front half? I am town now?

I think galron is more likely to flip scum based on his flaky play since coming into the game, and I don't think two scum in the hood, so that would make you town.

Here, VP flipped his read from a hard scumread on Cape to a hard townread on Cape, it's not consistent with VP's outted reads and is scum motivated.

UNVOTE: Galron

It looks like VP is scum in the hood and being opportunistic for a mis hammer

VOTE: VP

please dont kill another limbait target have some courage and vote VP

limbait target

You're saying you're limbait? Who is this referring to?

Galron is limbait

He is a bit. I worry about a noob elimination but not enough to no eliminate here.

I think the wagons are limbait vs newb. I think Malcolm's posts are too well written to be noob.

part of me does just want a Malcolm flip so if he flips town like I think he will we can just like kill everyone on it b/c I bet its chock full of scum

4457 and 4463 make me think Galron will flip town too. I still don't understand how the Malcolm wagon got to the point it did.

VOTE: VP

If Math and Nero switch back that gets VP up to e-2 I think. Scum!VP flip for D2 is definitely still on the table, and I think it implies town!fire going forward because of VP's attempts to pocket fire in 4700, 4705 and 4709.

It's actually pretty transparent why I moved my votes EoD. It does take some creativity to interpret my reason for leaving the Galron wagon in any other way.

[Frogsterking]

I feel like VP is making it hard for townies to use the gamethread to make progress on the rest of the scumteam. I'm assuming there's a scum on the VP wagon D2 and I want to bring up the possibility that it's Dease.

[Frogsterking]

VP I thought Galron had a good chance of going through EoD yesterday up until the hammer, I think I took Yeet's softs less seriously than other townies (I didn't take Yeet's softs seriously at all.)

No, I thought Galron was town not scum at the time I unvoted them D2. I think Galron has a tendency to be limbait in general, in this case I'd say VP is the main player trying to make use of it on D2.

[Frogsterking]

Enchant or Dragon, have either of you ever played with Dease before?

[Frogsterking]

Who is Dease?

This my point though

i've played survivor with DV before

if we played mafia together it's been a while

Was there anything distinctive about their survivor game you remember?

[Frogsterking]

Fire, if I flip town, will you stop sheeping Nero and listen to Titus?

Can you do a reasonless or wall readslist? I think the ship has sailed on saving you.

I want you to answer 5425

[Frogsterking]

Driving give me 30 mins

I'll give you an hour so you have time to think about it. That's when my pizza gets here so that will be my reminder to check.

[Frogsterking]

Fire, if I flip town, will you stop sheeping Nero and listen to Titus?

Can you do a reasonless or wall readslist? I think the ship has sailed on saving you.

I want you to answer 5425

Based solely on those two vcs, my play reads suggest Scorpious and Frogstar planting seeds the town ran with.

Scum didn't even bother with even faking a counterwagon until April shouted the wagon down. The lack of a counterwagon usually means either boned scum, bussing scum or scum that don't give a damn. Let's discuss each in turn.

VP being boned scum at that point doesn't match with what happened unless April is agency captured town. Scum don't stick their neck on the line for a partner like that. If VP was boned scum, expect at least 1 scum on the wagon and multiple if possible. The votes should be in soon after VP was exposed. I don't believe this theory, so I can't find that moment but I include it for the sake of completion.

VP being bussed is unlikely because of the gamestate. Bussing scum generally do so early.

VP town can create apathy and a lack of desire to create counterwagons. A bird in hand is worth two in the bush.

Anything else needs a specific question.

Is this your answer to 5425? It appears to be based more on verbal reasoning than it does on VCA.

[Frogsterking]

Is this your answer to 5425? It appears to be based more on verbal reasoning than it does on VCA.

VCA has it's drawbacks here. Without a scumflip, it's near impossible to determine scum objective by the VCs alone.

Okay I understand

[Frogsterking]

Frogster, have you ever seen or done a VCA? I don't recall meeting you.

Yeah we played a game together and I played a game with Math and I talked to mastina a little bit about how to do VCA.

My impression is that it loads on visual and spatial working memory.

[Frogsterking]

Frogster, I think you missed this question.

VP I thought Galron had a good chance of going through EoD yesterday up until the hammer, I think I took Yeet's softs less seriously than other townies (I didn't take Yeet's softs seriously at all.)

No, I thought Galron was town not scum at the time I unvoted them D2. I think Galron has a tendency to be limbait in general, in this case I'd say VP is the main player trying to make use of it on D2.

This makes no sense. You are stating:

1) yeet was lying about an innocent on galron, or so you perceived until today.

2) galron was town.

These facts are in direct conflict with each other. Why would yeet fake a clear on galron, if galron was town about to be eliminated?

Yeet is the same player who delayed the start of the game because their original name was offensive to a Chinese player so the mods forced him to change it. Yeet is a little trolly in that they're very unconcerned with what others think and feel. Yeet is also whimsical and probably creative himself. I thought yeet was likely to be full of shit and I didn't consider fakeclaiming to be AI from them. I perceived softs to be coming in from both yeet and luminary and there was no reason in my mind to take either one more seriously than the other. I saw at least one player I townread mention yeet's earlier D2 treatment of the galron slot suggested yeet didn't actually have an inno on galron. I didn't verify this because I didn't think it was important compared to my scumread on you.

[Frogsterking]

Frogsterking - scum?
Scorpious - town
Save The Dragons - town?
Nero Cain - town?
DeasVail - ?
Titus - ?
Enchant - eisbfoejwbdkfjdneldj
Galron - town
fireisredsir - town
Eyes without a face - ?
VP Baltar - scum?
April Ludgate - scum?
Cape90 - town

Someone who's good at the economy help me budget this

No because you called me scum. You've got VP as scum though so I can work with that.

[Frogsterking]

I didn't consider fakeclaiming to be AI from them.

What?

My reads on yeet and galron had nothing to do with each other or on yeet's alleged soft claims at the time. I already scumread yeet and my read on galron changed because of how

you

interacted with galron not because of yeet. I simply didn't care about the relationship between galron and yeet. EoD2 I cared about the relationship about you and galron, you and cape, and a little bit between you and yeet.

I perceived softs to be coming in from both yeet and luminary

What????

Yeet wasn't the only player I noticed softs from EoD2 and I couldn't tell how much of it was in my imagination so I assumed I needed more evidence before I should change anything I was doing before I noticed them.

Frog, why would yeet make a YOLO fake claim to save a town wagon from lim if he was scum, which was your stated mindset at the time. You wanted to kill yeet, iirc.

"YOLO" is a good term for my read on yeet actually. I read Yeet as a creative YOLO player who was frequently distracting and pushing takes I disagreed with. I thought yeet was likely to flip maf this game because of the exceptions made around his slot at gamestart so I chose not to think deeply about most of the things he said. Given his recent flip it appears like my suspicious may not have been far off base if the interactions with the psychologist are important to how this setup was designed to be played.

[Frogsterking]

Now I want to talk more about Dease. Dease completed a large normal a couple years ago with both Nero and Eyes. In that game Dease was the deepscum who made it to the endgame. There are a lot of similarities between Dease's play in that game and this game. I have a feeling Dease may be a player who needs pressure before he releases actual AI information.

[Frogsterking]

Hi i am vigilante with psychologist game.

Yeet's flip made me think Enchant might be telling the truth.

[Frogsterking]

I was getting discouraged after Yeet's flip that I wasn't contributing to the game but now that a bunch of sketch slots are trying to force a wagon on me I think I must be doing something right.

[Frogsterking]

VP asked me to answer his questions repeatedly then ducked out when I actually did.

[Frogsterking]

VP asked me to answer his questions repeatedly then ducked out when I actually did.

Where did he do this?

Why are you voting no one?

Titus you CAN'T BE SERIOUS. "WHERE DID HE DO THIS?" ??? U R NOT EVEN READING VPS POSTS. U CANT BE. UR TELLING ME U MISSED ALL THIS:

I want to talk about Dease a little bit before D3 ends

Respond to my post about you and why you joined and abandoned the galron wagon.

It's actually pretty transparent why I moved my votes EoD. It does take some creativity to interpret my reason for leaving the Galron wagon in any other way.

Nope. You said you moved to galron because my wagon was not viable? Nothing changed about the viability of my wagon when you switched back.

I would like you to at least admit you switched because you didn't think galron was going to happen there. It is extremely obvious from the timing.

I would also like you to tell me who was using galron as limbait.

I thought Yeet lied about softs up until now when I saw their flip.

So you thought galron was scum still yesterday when he was at e-1 and you unvoted?

I thought Yeet lied about softs up until now when I saw their flip. My change of vote EoD off of Galron was because I read your iso and saw that you read flipped onto him making me think he was town.

I don't get how this makes sense. You think galron is town, but yeet is lying to prevent his lim????

I thought Yeet lied about softs up until now when I saw their flip. My change of vote EoD off of Galron was because I read your iso and saw that you read flipped onto him making me think he was town.

I don't get how this makes sense. You think galron is town, but yeet is lying to prevent his lim????

@frog

I think Galron has a tendency to be limbait in general, in this case I'd say VP is the main player trying to make use of it on D2.

I worked to save galron. How is that me making use of him being limbat?

VP I thought Galron had a good chance of going through EoD yesterday up until the hammer, I think I took Yeet's softs less seriously than other townies (I didn't take Yeet's softs seriously at all.)

No, I thought Galron was town not scum at the time I unvoted them D2. I think Galron has a tendency to be limbait in general, in this case I'd say VP is the main player trying to make use of it on D2.

This makes no sense. You are stating:

1) yeet was lying about an innocent on galron, or so you perceived until today.

2) galron was town.

These facts are in direct conflict with each other. Why would yeet fake a clear on galron, if galron was town about to be eliminated?

Frogster, I think you missed this question.

VP I thought Galron had a good chance of going through EoD yesterday up until the hammer, I think I took Yeet's softs less seriously than other townies (I didn't take Yeet's softs seriously at all.)

No, I thought Galron was town not scum at the time I unvoted them D2. I think Galron has a tendency to be limbait in general, in this case I'd say VP is the main player trying to make use of it on D2.

This makes no sense. You are stating:

1) yeet was lying about an innocent on galron, or so you perceived until today.

2) galron was town.

These facts are in direct conflict with each other. Why would yeet fake a clear on galron, if galron was town about to be eliminated?

Frogster, I think you missed this question.

VP I thought Galron had a good chance of going through EoD yesterday up until the hammer, I think I took Yeet's softs less seriously than other townies (I didn't take Yeet's softs seriously at all.)

No, I thought Galron was town not scum at the time I unvoted them D2. I think Galron has a tendency to be limbait in general, in this case I'd say VP is the main player trying to make use of it on D2.

This makes no sense. You are stating:

1) yeet was lying about an innocent on galron, or so you perceived until today.

2) galron was town.

These facts are in direct conflict with each other. Why would yeet fake a clear on galron, if galron was town about to be eliminated?

I didn't consider fakeclaiming to be AI from them.

What?

I perceived softs to be coming in from both yeet and luminary

What????

Frog, why would yeet make a YOLO fake claim to save a town wagon from lim if he was scum, which was your stated mindset at the time. You wanted to kill yeet, iirc.

[Frogsterking]

VP asked me to answer his questions repeatedly then ducked out when I actually did.

Your answers make no sense. My point is already proved.

You hopped on the galron wagon to push it to e-1 yesterday, stating you did so because my wagon was not viable.

At the same time, you say you were townreading galron, and that your scum read of yeet (town) was faking a clear on galron to save him because he is yolo.

At that point, just 20 mins after you say my wagon is not viable, you come up with an incredibly forced reason to call galron town and return to voting me.

Pardon me if I find this incredibly unbelievable

THE ENTIRE PHASE 3 OF YOUR NARRATIVE IS INCREDIBLY UNBELIEVABLE. YOU ASK QUESTIONS TO FIT A NONSENSICAL NARRATIVE AND THEREFORE YOU GET ANSWERS THAT MAKE NO SENSE. I ANSWER YOUR STUPID QUESTIONS HONESTLY AND YOU SAY MY ANSWERS ARE STUPID BECAUSE I'M TOWN.

[Frogsterking]

vP AAPEALING TO CAPE = CAPE TOWN

[Frogsterking]

THE ENTIRE PHASE 3 OF YOUR NARRATIVE IS INCREDIBLY UNBELIEVABLE. YOU ASK QUESTIONS TO FIT A NONSENSICAL NARRATIVE AND THEREFORE YOU GET ANSWERS THAT MAKE NO SENSE. I ANSWER YOUR STUPID QUESTIONS HONESTLY AND YOU SAY MY ANSWERS ARE STUPID BECAUSE I'M TOWN.

Why aren't you voting me? Now is your chance.

wHY ARE U TRYING TO END THE DAY SO QUICKLY AND MKNOPOLIXE THE DISCUSSION?

[Frogsterking]

I think VP is trying to end the day early and make it look like I'm bussing him to set me up to get mislimmed

[Frogsterking]

I was getting discouraged after Yeet's flip

but

why after

Yeet's

flip?

Because I pushed Yeet all D1 and then EoD2 Math told me he thought it really was Yeet after all and I got excited. Malcolm and Wu weren't my ideas so when they flipped town I thought my reads might still be on track

[Frogsterking]

VOTE: galron

front half of this wagon is good, back half is shifty, but this seems more likely to hit scum than Malcom flip.

front half of this wagon is good, back half is shifty, but this seems more likely to hit scum than Malcom flip.

Front half? I am town now?

I think galron is more likely to flip scum based on his flaky play since coming into the game, and I don't think two scum in the hood, so that would make you town.

Here, VP flipped his read from a hard scumread on Cape to a hard townread on Cape, it's not consistent with VP's outted reads and is scum motivated.

Along with your townread on me earlier Frogster, wouldn't this also just point to me being town?

Yeah there's probably another example too, it's a clear pattern

[Frogsterking]

viewtopic.php?f=55&t=80012&user_select[]=17118

This is what I wanted to talk about here. I'm sick of the same handful of players being pushed over and over again. I think the majority of the scum team are in the less controversial players. Dease is playing this game very well within their scum range.

[Frogsterking]

Okay. I found at least part of it.

Tene. You’ve been the most “acceptant” of my content…

Why?

I felt your string of posts on the page where you were calling the attack against you random read as very genuine. I also don't think you were faking not knowing that math is confirmed town.

Nothing definitive, more of a gut thing it appears.

Scorpius is playing a different game than the one I just completed (which you were also in), when I was scum with Scorpius they weren't trying to appear like they didn't care, they were trying to appear like they were calm, which makes sense from a survivalistic view because being calm is +social value. In this game Scorpius appears like he really doesn't care how he's perceived at all which is very anti-survivalism.

[Frogsterking]

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=88949

This is the game I was referring to about Scorpius. It just ended. In the linked game scum!Scorpius has an agenda to be viewed as "chill" and outlast the other slots. In this game Scorpius doesn't have an agenda.

[Frogsterking]

Thiis one I think viewtopic.php?f=23&t=88465 although he does appear more active there. I swear there was one that ended more recently where he was maf.

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=88949

Yeah you might be thinking of this one here, Internal Affairs. I'll look at the game you linked. I think he tries harder to stay alive when he's scum, when he's town he's more apathetic and posts whatever, like he's doing in this game.

[Frogsterking]

This is from Scorpius D1 in the scum!Scorpius game Galron linked:

Just F’n wow…

I am going to try here. The level of theory and reasoning here has transcended anything I could even possibly contribute to ,but I am going to try.

From an outsiders perspective.And, what I mean by that is someone that is not as familiar with some of these players as others(played with Galron and Greeting recently and a form
of a Taly). This seems a lot like people are trying to read the person and not the game. I keep seeing posts like “this is “x”‘s scum behavior or this is their town behavior. I know that’s a whole meta thing, not my point here.

I think that’s a dangerous way of looking at this game. This is my first u pick. I submitted some boring ass roles with a town preference because I didn’t want to look like a fool and have the mod have to message me with.” You can’t have that one in this game”. The reason I think this is important is because I doubt I’m the only one that went into this, therefore trying to read the “player” might not be the best way to go about things

I feel I have an ok grasp of what Mastina is laying out. And that’s why I wanted to ask others. Who have played with this person , not about the person. But the logic. It makes sense to me. But I am so
Overwhelmed, that means nothing.

Titus,does seem familiar from my brief stay here a few years back and if memory serves me right, was very on point with many things. This is a vague memeory, mind you.

Anyway. These two are town reads for me, I like the logic and I like the assertiveness of saying that there is a disagreement with it. It comes off to me as two people really trying to solve.

Few notes- I’m not a fan of the belief that game entries are Al.

Also. I think looking at a players wiki should be used as anecdotal at best. I barely knew how to edit mine back in the day and surely haven’t remembered since.

Like with Scorpius you reverse dynamic of a "town range" and "scum range" that you would expect to see from an average player. There's a wider range of game-related posts Scorpius will type when he's scum than when he's town. My theory is that Scorpius has issues with game solving on an epistemological level, so he's more invested in the game when his objective is more like participating in a social experiment rather than solving a puzzle.