Mini 566: Justice League Mafia Game Over

[Thesp]

Vote: actr.

Welcome to mafiascum!

And where in Texas are you? I'm originally from Houston, but Dallas is my second home!

And who are your partners?

[Thesp]

wait when did i vote Thesp???

I like this attitude!

I am categorically against a mass role claim here - I'm not sure the potential benefits outweigh the risks. (I know when I mod games with character names, I particularly like to put in roles who are trying to kill a particular character.)

actr, you didn't tell us who your partners were. It wil make it harder to find the scum if you don't confess.

[Thesp]

Perhaps we should say claim who we are NOT.

I'll go first. I am not Icemaiden. ZONEACE, your turn.

I am not doing this. WhoMe?, your turn.

[Thesp]

I like Capricious's line of thought, but disagree with its conclusion. I think it more likely that Capricious is town.

Mirth, who's scum? Pick three.

[Thesp]

@Thesp - Justify why you think he's more likely to be town other than raw numbers (i.e. we're all "more likely" to be town).

Later.

Also this:

I like Capricious's line of thought, but disagree with its conclusion.

...should have said "WhoMe?" instead of Capricious. I like what WhoMe is saying about Capricious, but I disagree with his conclusion.

[Thesp]

On a non-gme related note, can somebody explain to me the difference between the Superfriendds and the Justice League? Because the're a lot of overlap if I recall correctly.

No one should do this. Sorry.

Sierra, are you BATMNAN? (Answer: No, obv HC is.)

I can't tell you who's scum on *page 4.* Try asking me something easier.

You're no fun.

actr, since Mirth won't play with me, can you tell me who the three scum are?

[Thesp]

i have no idea who the scum are at this point...

I can give you a hint, if it makes it easier. Go look at your role PM. Then come back and tell us.

[Thesp]

I can't tell you who's scum on *page 4.* Try asking me something easier.

You're no fun.

actr, since Mirth won't play with me, can you tell me who the three scum are?

Of course I'm no fun. Did Haschel forget to warn everyone else in this game who has yet to come across me that I'm no fun at all?

Also why do you say 3 scum? We don't know how many scum we have, unless there's something you're not telling us, Thesp.

Standard rule of thumb for minis. You're welcome to name more if you like. I guess it could be 11 scum with only 1 townie, but I don't think it is. Vote: No Conspiracy.

[Thesp]

Who are against name claiming? and why?

I am, on principle. I also don't see a compelling reason to do so.

[Thesp]

I am, and I'm not happy with you pushing it. In fact,

unvote:cicero (I'm still not happy with you for suggesting mass claiming)
vote: Capricious for continuing to bring it up.

I don't think Capricious is scum here.

I think it's more important to figure out who BATMNAN is.

[Thesp]

I think it's more important to figure out who BATMNAN is.

BATMNAN is the superhero who shows up when I'm drunk and can't figure out how to turn off the Caps Lock.

Lies. BATMNAN is in your heart - he's in everyone's heart. And someone's role PM.

[Thesp]

It's not an original reason, but Capricious' unwillingness to let the massclaim die is gonna get my vote. The scum have more to gain from it than the town. The possiblility of the scum figuring out the power roles doesn't outeighs the very weak possibillity of catching a scum. 1 scum for several power roles is not a good trade.

So you think he, as scum, sees someone suggest mass claim, discusses why it's unhelpful, suggests we do it anyway because he doesn't think it hurts town, and does so fairly blatantly? My experience with scum is not consistent with your experience, apparently. I think this is opportunistic rather than genuine.

FOS: ZONEACE.

Re-reading, I like WhoMe? as scum here much more. He seems to say, "Well, the last time it ended badly...but here's how we should do it!" I liked what we had to say about Capricious (even though I disagreed entirely with his conclusion for different reasons), but in the context of his earlier posts, he appears hypocritical in accusing Capricious of being wishy-washy on massclaiming.

I agree with Haschel Cedricson much more than cicero here.

Unvote: actr, Vote: WhoMe?

.

[Thesp]

So you think he, as scum, sees someone suggest mass claim, discusses why it's unhelpful, suggests we do it anyway because he doesn't think it hurts town, and does so fairly blatantly? My experience with scum is not consistent with your experience, apparently. I think this is opportunistic rather than genuine.

FOS: ZONEACE.

you don't find his constant harping DESPITE being told ample times (with detailed explanationsas to why) that it was a bad idea as even SLIGHTLY scummy.

No - it looked like he disagreed with those explanations (hardly any of which were detailed, IIRC). Am I mistaken?

[Thesp]

So you think he, as scum, sees someone suggest mass claim, discusses why it's unhelpful, suggests we do it anyway because he doesn't think it hurts town, and does so fairly blatantly? My experience with scum is not consistent with your experience, apparently. I think this is opportunistic rather than genuine.

FOS: ZONEACE.

you don't find his constant harping DESPITE being told ample times (with detailed explanationsas to why) that it was a bad idea as even SLIGHTLY scummy.

Also, what do you think of WhoMe??

[Thesp]

No - it looked like he disagreed with those explanations (hardly any of which were detailed, IIRC). Am I mistaken?

I feel mine were detailed. And it wasn't that he disagreed, he disREGARDED the explanations, he never refuted them and continued making hte same argument for the claims.

So, let me understand this correctly - you think he's scum, and presumably has something to gain from a mass claim (else why would he push it?). Furthermore, in his sinister plot which he did not first proffer forth, he finds opposition to it which draws attention to himself, yet continues to push it, because the potential for the massclaim that gains him great benefit outweighs being the center of the growing lynch mob.

Is that right?

There seem to be a lot of presumptions in there. This isn't consistent with how I see scum play at all.

as for whome? i haven't taken a close look at him, so i don't really have an opinion.

Can you use this moment to take a close look at him and get back with me?

[Thesp]

So, let me understand this correctly - you think he's scum, and presumably has something to gain from a mass claim (else why would he push it?). Furthermore, in his sinister plot which he did not first proffer forth, he finds opposition to it which draws attention to himself, yet continues to push it, because the potential for the massclaim that gains him great benefit outweighs being the center of the growing lynch mob.

Is that right?

i notice how you completely ignored everything i said there.

No, I didn't. It seems to me that for you to believe that what he is doing is indicative of him being scum, it entails the presumptions listed there. Please, please, please correct me in anything there which may be incorrect. So far, you have not. (It's still early, though. )

cicero, what do you think of WhoMe?

[Thesp]

Furthermore, in his sinister plot which he did not first proffer forth, he finds opposition to it which draws attention to himself, yet continues to push it, because the potential for the massclaim that gains him great benefit outweighs being the center of the growing lynch mob.

Yes, i think scum capricious stands to gain from a mass claim even if it is at his down fall. Because 1 scum for 2 or 3 power roles is not a good trade for the town, but it is a VERY GOOD trade for the scum. Its a risky gambit, but scum capricious stands to gain if it works.

And i've noticed, what have appeared, at least to me, to be very sly attempts to get people to out themselves as proof that it's a bad idea. I've stated, a couple times, that its a bad idea for the claim, and made explanations as to why, but the only way to PROVE IT, is from someone to name claim and see if their power can easily be figured out (which would be a bad idea and i definitely do not support anyone doing that). Despite this, he CONTINUES to push the idea saying no good reasons ahve been given.

I disagree with you and think you're wrong.

[Thesp]

well that gets an

FOS

because i think its quite obvious. Anyone pushing or defending mass claiming at this point is suspect.

???

I'm not defending mass claiming, I'm defending

Capricious

. I've already made it clear that I don't think a mass claim is a good idea.

[Thesp]

You say that, and yet you continue to defend the person most vehemetely advocating mass claiming despite it being a logicless advocation. It jsut strikes me as suspect. you're saying one thing and doing another.

I think he's wrong, but I think he's town. I guess I don't see how that's unusual (or "saying one thing and doing another"). Can you help clarify that for me?

[Thesp]

you ignored and actually disputed that scum capricious had something to gain from his actions.

No, I

agreed

that if he's scum, then presumably he's pushing this agenda because he gets something out of it. (Otherwise, why bother on this subject?) I do feel, however, he would be unlikely to push such an agenda as aggressively as he is if scum because of the attention it brings on him, particularly when coupled with the low probability of success such an attempt would have (espeically in the face of existing criticism). Perhaps your experience of how scum act is different than mine, but it's not consistent with what I've seen, historically.

[Thesp]

Happy with my vote.

[Thesp]

Thesp: Why are you defending Capricious?

Because I think he's pro-town. Why else would I?

Thesp: why are you happy with your vote?

Because I think WhoMe? is scum.

So, tell me again why we can't just have a mass nameclaim without the mass roleclaim? I am assuming everyone has a name, and the bad guys might have been stuck with "evil" names. On the chance that everyone has a good name, we lost nothing.

How significant do you think that chance is?

mith said something once about vigging N0 - "Sometimes it is correct play - however, it is

rare

that the player can know it is correct play."

I think this is true with massclaims as well - it might be the right thing, but it's highly unlikely that you'll know it's the right thing. Without evidence to suggest otherwise, the town might be ruthlessly punished for a massnameclaim. Unless you have a good reason for a massnameclaim that goes beyond the standard arguments (i.e. I think you need an actual, role-based reason for it), I think massnameclaiming should be shelved, and even

if

you have a good role-based reason for doing so, you may want to consider whether it's worth coming out right away for the argument, because it probably isn't. (I am not in a position to make that determination.)

Can we get on with hunting WhoMe?'s partners?

[Thesp]

Also, this is what a massclaim would look like, anyway.

[Thesp]

A. Riktus has 2 posts.

2. One cannot have a good idea of who is town from a whole 2 posts, most of which are flavor.

It is also page 8.

I've struck out the part of this quote that is wrong. I suspect the rest of it will be soon, too.

[Thesp]

My confusion here is coming from the way people are throwing around the term "massclaim." "Massclaim" typically refers to a mass roleclaim. I want to have a mass nameclaim. People in this game talk about mass roleclaims and nameclaims, and that is perfectly understandable. Massclaims, on the other hand, are not understandable. There are some theme games where massclaims take one form, and some in which massclaims take the other.

I don't think anyone wants to massroleclaim. I think all the discussion is around massnameclaiming.

[Thesp]

You know what this thread needs?

WhoMe? to be stabbed.

[Thesp]

You know what this thread needs?

WhoMe? to be stabbed.

I'm thinking it's Capricious who needs offing myself. Not pushing for a mass claim himseld anymore, but thinks it's not a bad idea and excuses Khelvaster's pushing of it.

I thought in his last post he was against it. Also, is it impossible for town to think massnameclaim is a good idea? And what do you think of me excusing Capricious's pushing of massnameclaim?

[Thesp]

You know what this thread needs?

WhoMe? to be stabbed.

I'm thinking it's Capricious who needs offing myself. Not pushing for a mass claim himseld anymore, but thinks it's not a bad idea and excuses Khelvaster's pushing of it.

I thought in his last post he was against it. Also, is it impossible for town to think massnameclaim is a good idea? And what do you think of me excusing Capricious's pushing of massnameclaim?

I think it's a datum that may come into play later in the game.

Is it substantially different from what Capricious did there?

[Thesp]

Well, let's try this...

Deadline: Sunday, 3/23/08 - 12pm Central time

Mod: Can you prod all players who have not posted in the last 72 hours?

Thanks!

On that, Thesp makes an interesting point that Capricious could be a townie. While I don't necessarily agree with it, I'm starting to think that either Capricious or Khelvaster is scum. Probably not both because that would involve some really dumb scum basically outing themselves together (unless we have 2 scum factions).

I agree that it's unlikely that they're scum together.

Ooba: your refusal to explain your post restriction is noted. I will lay off for now, but thats only because I have a theory about what your post restriction is. I shall be watching your posts to see if there is a pattern.

I'm not sure how this is helpful.

More lynching of WhoMe?, please. Thanks!

[Thesp]

More lynching of WhoMe?, please. Thanks!

FOS Thesp.

So you want to lynch the one person who has hung themselves out by stating they believe there are no vanilla pro-townies in the game, thus effectively admitting I have both a name and a power. Explain please?

Darwin damnit, Whome! Why in the seven blazes of the not fun not happy place below did yo have to just *confirm* you're a power role? (Or scum. Either fits)

Seriously? Why?

Agreed - I hadn't read it as such, and claiming such now doesn't make sense except to say "BOO! Go away!". I'll also note that the last person I saw that suggested there were no vanilla townies were in a game was scum.

Happy with my vote.

[Thesp]

Mod:

What are the deadline lynch rules?

[Thesp]

Yet again, Capricious, I shall say this: town gains less from massclaims than scum.

How do you know this?

[Thesp]

I see why you

think

town gains less from a massnameclaim than scum do, yet you still have not demonstrated how you

know

town gain less than scum from a massnameclaim. Can you not envision other scenarios whereby a massnameclaim would be substantially more beneficial to the town than to the scum? (I know I sure can.) What we have here is genuine

doubt

about the effectiveness of a massnameclaim. Any assertion of certainty here gives me pause.

Let this not be suggested as an impetus for massnameclaiming - I think it's too much of a gamble for us to do.

WhoMe?, who are your partners?

[Thesp]

Capricious, who are the three scum?

[Thesp]

WhoMe?, who are your partners?

Still waiting for some actual case on me to be presented by you. All I'm seeing so far is you randomly saying that I am scum and need to be lynched. Lets see some facts!

I could have sworn I'd said something about you, at the least:

Re-reading, I like WhoMe? as scum here much more. He seems to say, "Well, the last time it ended badly...but here's how we should do it!" I liked what we had to say about Capricious (even though I disagreed entirely with his conclusion for different reasons), but in the context of his earlier posts, he appears hypocritical in accusing Capricious of being wishy-washy on massclaiming.

I've thought your responses have also been more likely to come from scum than town. I also don't like your last attack on Capricious, as it feels disingenuous to me (in a stroke of irony).

I'm increasingly not fond of ZONEACE, for his insistence on voting people he disagrees with rather than doing scumhunting.

roffman, who else do you think is scum? (I like Capricious's line of thought here on roffman.)

I also want to stab Sierra.

I would like to agree with you here and say that i think Zoneace is town.

Why? I'm more inclined to think the opposite lately.

Thesp, Lets say we lynch WhoMe? and
a) He turns out scum - who do you think his partner(s) are?
b) He turns out town - who do you think is scum then?

See above for some of my leanings. I think the night's results will hold more information for us as well.

The main thing I'm thinking right now is this:
While Capricious is obviously pushing the issue way more than Khelvester, he may just be genuinely dense. I don't know. (See, Hascel, I learned ^___^) But he is pushing awfully hard. Khelvester is kind of egging this whole thing on from the sidelines. I very much would like to vote Capricious for the blatantness, but part of me thinks that Khelvester would probably have a bigger chance of being scum because of the lack of originality and the subtleness of what he is pushing.

WE HAVE A WINNAR!!!

I'm not terribly convinced of Khelvaster's scumminess, but the manner in which he pushed massnameclaim is far more consistent with how scum would operate such a maneuver. (Also, see my vote on WhoMe?.)

I'm happy with my vote, but will switch at a deadline to ensure a lynch.

[Thesp]

I'm increasingly not fond of ZONEACE, for his insistence on voting people he disagrees with rather than doing scumhunting.

That would make sense, IF THE PEOPLE THAT I DSAGREE WITH WEREN'T SCUMMY. But they are. The people i disagree with are suggesting, agressively pushing and/or defending those who are suggesting and agressively pushing SCUMMY and ANTI-TOWN IDEAS.

remove head from sphincter then analyze the game and my play.

NO. How often does scum lead a push on an agenda that's conceivably openly anti-town, that's unlikely to succeed? I'm trying to remember a time I've

ever

seen that. (If you've seen it happen, can you show me examples?) They instead, when seeing a plan that benefits them, tend to either vehemently argue against it for town brownie points, or subtly push it from the sidelines, hoping it will go through. That's why I think Capricious is one of the least likely to be scum here, because he'd certainly get attention and flak here, which is uncommon from scum.

You said it yourself - he continued to suggest massnameclaim was best, even after you told him it was a bad idea. How often do scum do that? It suggests to me his thoughts were genuine, even if you disagree with him. You voting for him in light of that suggests to me you're looking for someone to vote for, rather than looking for scum.

(Also, a point of semantics which will help me understand you - what do you mean when you say scummy?)

[Thesp]

basing a defense of someone ENTIRELY on BS wifom is counterporductive as well. Thesp's entire post is craplogic. thats not productive.

I AM TRYING TO SUGGEST THAT IN PAST EXPERIENCE SCUM TEND NOT TO ACT IN A CERTAIN WAY.

I'm going to steal largely from a post I made in Face-To-Face Mafia, because it applies here. You need to be taken to task for this. You are unfairly using the brand WIFOM with little actual basis.

Let's examine the form of the argument here.

ZONEACE: I think Capricious is more likely to be scum because he exhibits A.
Thesp: In my experience, scum are more likely to exhibit ~A (Not-A).
ZONEACE: Thesp, you are using WIFOM, which is scummy.

I think this would be a fair characterization for your attack. If this is the form for WIFOM, WIFOM is useless to the point of absurdity. It is ludicrous to suggest that the defense of Capricious here is WIFOM -

I am using examples of how scum tend to act to suggest that Capricious is acting inconsistently with them.

If this is WIFOM, scumhunting is literally impossible.

What you are doing is taking a disagreement over what scum are

more actually likely to do

, and trying to pin it on me as WIFOM. You are looking for excuses to vote rather than looking for who might be scum, and that is scummy.

On this note, ZONEACE, do you think scum are less likely to lead a push on an agenda that's conceivably openly anti-town, that's unlikely to succeed? I also need to know what you mean by "scummy" (from before), as it helps me understand what you're saying.

[Thesp]

Is it worthwhile to have Khelvaster claim at this point? actr should either way.

I will vote to prevent a Capricious lynch.

[Thesp]

However, as we now know that there are vanilla townies in play, a mass role claim as things stand is a really stupid idea.

I'm not sure how vanilla townies affect this, and I'm not sure why we should presume

any

game doesn't have vanilla townies.

Thesp's unexplained suspicion of WhoMe and Roffman's general lack of helpfulness stood out.

If you think my suspicion of WhoMe? was unexplained, I'm not sure you've read at all. WhoMe? said I didn't give reasons, but that doesn't mean he was

right

.

You can't say that. What if we have Batman around? Batman would be a *much* more likely vig than Green Arrow.

This line of discussion is specious at best, unhelpful at worst.

Until then, I'm not sure that ZONACE is coming back, because if he did, he'd be mod-confirmed town.

I agree on mod-confirmed likely-town if and only if dead scum show up in other colors than blue. (I've had a scum that could feign death in a game before.) Either way, I think such speculation is unhelpful until his return (if at all).

Vote: Sierra.

[Thesp]

First, your reasons on WhoMe weren't all that great actually and invalidated by your persistence after he softclaimed.

I disagree with the first part, and I haven't the slightest clue about what you're going on about with the second part of your sentence.

Also, OH MY HOLY GOODNESS CAN PEOPLE PLEASE STOP TALKING ABOUT ROLES AND ROLENAMECLAIMS AND MASSCLAIMS AND ANYTHING WHICH DISTRACTS US FROM FINDING SCUM.

Votes and suspicions, people, not fluff.

[Thesp]

Your only point against WhoMe was that he was fine with the massclaim and suggested a method for doing it after he said he's seen it end badly before. After that you kept blindly attacking him for it.

I thought my only point against hom was his hypocrisy, pushing what could be an anti-town agenda in a subtle and underhanded way, and was generally suspicious of the manner in which he responded, along with being uncofortable with the silence around him (even if I didn't specifically delineate each of these things before). I'm not sure what's so bad about that. I do agree I didn't back off after the softclaim, but I disagree it would have been more prudent to back off (obviously).

I also wanted to see Sierra's reaction before I gave further explanation. I'm uncomfortable with how he seems to be making almost nothing but "safe" comments. He's not pursuing significant suspicions, only making speculations that don't really move the game along much. People who do that usually are looking for credit for posting while not actually putting substance out there - a hallmark of scum.

(As an aside, I could see him as scum with Capricious - but I don't think Capricious is scum. )

Does anyone think there's any significance to the fact that all the NKs were in the group that voted for Khelvaster?

No.

[Thesp]

As per V/LA thread, power at my house has been knocked out since Friday afternoon - I'm posting here at work, but may not be able to catch up until power is back on (which may be as late as Wednesday). I will do my best to keep pace, sorry about the inconvenience.

[Thesp]

I resent that. First of all, I believe I was pretty clear on my accusations of Capricious and Khelvaster day 1; I don't see how you could label those as "safe".

They were the popular opinions of the day. It's easy to roll with the flow.

How you could see me as scum with him remains a mystery to me, unless you assume I've been bussing him from the start of the game.

A little of that - your move to Khelvaster felt disingenuous to me. It appeared to me that you were trying to get us to think you wanted a Capricious lynch, while trying subtly to get something other than a Capricious lynch.

Thesp: Your case against WhoMe was still quite weak.

I disagree strongly. I also think scum aren't going to be obvious - they rarely are.

Why are you defending Capricious so much?

BECAUSE I SEE PEOPLE VOTING HIM FOR DOING SOMETHING WHICH WAS MORE LIKELY TO BE DONE BY TOWN. It's maddening.

I'm fine with my vote now, though I do like Haschel Cedricson's notes on Mirth a lot. If I had two, Mirth would get my second vote.

[Thesp]

Which is what i'm going to do - Give this game a re-read and post my thoughts on it asap.

Please do post your thoughts, re-read or not.

[Thesp]

I am so, so sorry for my absence. Let me get caught up on modding and I'l be back to read and post.

[Thesp]

Mirth wrote:
Why are you defending Capricious so much?

BECAUSE I SEE PEOPLE VOTING HIM FOR DOING SOMETHING WHICH WAS MORE LIKELY TO BE DONE BY TOWN. It's maddening.

@Thesp What is that, again?

I summed it up here and here:

So, let me understand this correctly - you think he's scum, and presumably has something to gain from a mass claim (else why would he push it?). Furthermore, in his sinister plot which he did not first proffer forth, he finds opposition to it which draws attention to himself, yet continues to push it, because the potential for the massclaim that gains him great benefit outweighs being the center of the growing lynch mob.

Is that right?

There seem to be a lot of presumptions in there. This isn't consistent with how I see scum play at all.

I do feel, however, he would be unlikely to push such an agenda as aggressively as he is if scum because of the attention it brings on him, particularly when coupled with the low probability of success such an attempt would have (espeically in the face of existing criticism).

It just doesn't make sense for Capricious to have pushed the mass-claiming like he did

while it was clearly bringing attention on himself that scum would not want

. It seems far more likely that he is a townie who thought that speculation on mass-claiming was more worthwhile than not saying anything on the subject, despite the pressure and votes he was getting. (I would expect scum to ease off the subject, but he kept talking about it.)

Elsewhere in the game... I don't like Thesp's case on Sierra. We pretty much all went with the Khlev/Capricious thing, so singling Sierra out for it seems insane.

Why? If I think he appeared to be disingenuous in the manner he pursued the lynches (as opposed to others whom I might have thought appeared more genuine in their suspicion, whether or not correct), why shouldn't I pursue those lines of inquiry?

Thesp: soooo townies argue crap points to death?

Do you have reason to think otherwise?

Anyway, my original point- is ooba the only one who seems to be post restricted, and does that seem strange to anyone- that we would only have one post restricted role in the game?

No - I'd expect either 0, 1, or a bunch of post-restricted townies in most given games - mods

tend

not to have more than one in a game unless they have a bunch (in my experience).

How'd you semi guess Khel had a role-based reason? And do you think it was useful to town posting this?

I was trying to suggest that people probably shouldn't push for massnameclaim without a role-based reason,

and even still should probably consider not doing so

. I wasn't intending to speculate on whether or not anyone in the discussion actually had such a reason. Sorry for any confusion there.

I think Thesp is full of ~insert not nice word here~ about that. It's not playing it safe if you're going after the most suspicious people around with an actual argument and not just agreeing with the crowd. Sierra isn't just assenting to "you all think he's scum so he must be scum." He's actually putting forward a case.

I missed that part. Please help me with that. All I was able to find was essentially, "I votes for peeps that talked about massclaim being possibly good, because we said it wasn't."

I'm beginning to like the Mirth hate.

Happy with my vote.

[Thesp]

Thesp: thing is, Sierra's argument wasn't "he's pushing mass claim therefore he's scum" his argument was more along the lines of "he's doing nothing but pushing mass claim" The issue isnt the mass claim in and of itself, but the fact that Capricious hadn't said much not related to it.

Hmm...

Khelvaster on the other hand has - after showing up 10 days into the game - only brought up the mass-claiming discussion again, when IMO we had already settled it was not a good idea. He has yet to provide us with any of his thoughts on who might be scum.

I was suspicious of Capricious at first, because of him pushing the massclaim.

I unvoted Cap earlier because he finally dropped the massclaim discussion only to find him pushing it again a few pages later. That won't do.

Looking at what Sierra said, it looks like the "not contributing" aspect of his argument was ancillary rather than primary. It looks like his vote is mainly based on whether or not people were pushing massnameclaim (as Sierra even moved his vote back to Capricious after Capricious had also contributed plenty outside of massnameclaiming).

Also, I expect a post from Haschel Cedricson. Right now.

[Thesp]

Hmm, this idea has come up in several games I've played, and I want to know if you all think it's kinda WIFOM.

Namely, the idea that sticking to an unpopular point is townie. I haven't even played in that many games yet, and I've already come across it several times.

I might even go so far as to say it's been the single biggest/most popular supposed towntell I've seen.

(Is towntell even a word?)

I'm uncertain WIFOM will apply here (as it's more specifically a self-reflective defense raised by a person themself), and while I would give some significant circumstance caveats to the point, I would say that you'd have to consider what might possibly motivate someone of an anti-town alignment to bring attention on themselves (particularly potential night-time attention as well).

Plslynchsierrakthxbai

[Thesp]

I do not know this for a fact but the fact remains that we had 3 kills yesterday night. That strongly points to the existence of an SK IMO. I can’t make deductions on who/which faction made which kills ..

3 deaths =/= 3 kills.

The fact that Mirth calls him “One of the most least suspicious persons here” makes me think mirth is trying to link herself to Sierra – which makes me believe he might be the SK.

I don't understand this - why would Sierra be the SK for this?

I don't think ZONEACE is coming back. If he did come back, we would all know that he was Atom, the Hider. He would be a mod-confirmed townie. I'm pretty sure that the justice thing is just flavor for death. Hell, that could have even been the vig kill; a high-ranking JL member removing players from the game by sending them on a mission.

More particularly, we should

play as though he's not coming back

. If he does, then double-plus-good. (Essentially, I agree with what HC is saying here.)

Looks like HC is channeling BATMNAN again.

I think it's time for Mirth to claim.

[Thesp]

I see Thesp is asking me to claim. Is anyone else for this?

I will vote for you if you don't.

[Thesp]

I see Thesp is asking me to claim. Is anyone else for this?

I will vote for you if you don't.

You're ready to put an L-1 vote on me because I'm asking for a second opinion on what might just be role fishing. Go right ahead. I love how you're so easily dissuaded from your attempts at getting a Sierra bandwagon going.

(For the record, I do realize that if nothing changes, then I'm the deadline lynch, and I will claim if I feel I need to. But at the moment, seeing as my prime suspect for scum is the one asking for a claim from me, I'd rather have a couple of second opinions on whether y'all want me to claim now or wait a bit longer.)

I don't want to drag this out to a deadline.

Unvote: sierra, Vote: Mirth.

[Thesp]

Unvote: Mirth, Vote: Sierra.

The claims here make a lot of sense to me. I don't see Mirth making up this claim with the pseudo-confirmation from Capricious in flavor, unless Capricious is lying with him. (Capricious could be lying independently, Cap as godfather with such a role is perfectly plausible, but I don't see Mirth lying here.) I don't think either are lying, though.

[Thesp]

I find Mirth's claim highly believable and compelling, partly because I've seen her play as town throughout the entire game, but also because my flavor fits spot on as to why she couldn't mind read me. Mirth might well be 100% effective.

Are you saying that you couldn't be read because of your flavor or because of your role?

This is a good question.

[Thesp]

Crud, forgot about the deadline.

Mod

: Can you put the deadline in the opening post? And can you confirm that the deadline lynching rules is that a plurality lynches, with ties being broken by no-lynch?


I will likely move my vote to prevent a no lynch, but I

will likely

move my vote to prevent a lynch if it's on Capricious. No lynch is preferable to a lynch of a townie here with numbers as they are, I think.

[Thesp]

Haschel, get your vote out there now before I slap you with a wet fish.

[Thesp]

It's worth noting that the deadline is

actually

May 11 at 10pm, which is about 61 hours from this post, not <48 hours as was stated by the mod earlier. That shouldn't stop us from stepping up and trying to lynch proper - who knows if the mod is going to do anything or not.

[Thesp]

Haschel Cedricson, unvote. Now.

We need to wait to place our votes. Seriously. You come out on what's likely LyLo with a vote?

Singing Librarian should not die today. Sierra should, though. His failure to be lynched is a blight upon our town. Seriously.

I'm beginning to think massclaim is in order, no?

[Thesp]

Unvote

.

Thesp is right. We need to hit Mafia today.

Since I know you'll all ask for elaboration, I think SL may be the SK.

:hifive:

[Thesp]

I'm totally buying HC as town.

Mafia: Sierra, Mirth, Capricious
SK: Singing Librarian

I need to go back and double-check, as that assertion means that Capricious is scum (which I've been doubtful of) and check interactions there, but I doubt a 2-man scum group.

I want sierra to claim first.

[Thesp]

Funny Thesp, 3 man mafia and an SK with 6 players remaining. Far-fetched from the logical town bloodhound Thesp.

I don't know what else there is. There's been pretty decent power from the town revealed so far, so we're looking at a powerful 2 man group or a weaker 3 man group and a mod who thinks the town has a chance for some reason. Either way, I see you as scum, and I think the safest play is your death. SK has to hit mafia tonight either way, and if there's a vig, they need to hit right as well.

Claim or die.

[Thesp]

I want sierra to claim first.

'first' as in: first me and then everyone else? Or just me?

You first, then everyone else.

[Thesp]

It's not that I'm bothered by having to go first, but there's a reason I really want you (Thesp) to go before I do.

That's funny, there's a reason I want you to go first.

Scum.

[Thesp]

I'm good with that.

[Thesp]

The order is ready when everybody else is.

Do it.

[Thesp]

My turn to claim. I'm Oracle, and I know that The Joker is in the game and out to get everybody, and each night I use the tools at my disposal to hunt him down. Guess who Singing Librarian is?

N1: roffman (not the Joker)
N2: Singing Librarian (the Joker)

Next.

[Thesp]

The reason I wanted Thesp to claim before I did, was because I thought he might be a tracker or watcher and saw me visit roffman night 1. Him knowing that SL is scum raises some questions.

Thesp, you learned this night 2, right? So why did your first post day 3 say:

Haschel Cedricson, unvote. Now.

We need to wait to place our votes. Seriously. You come out on what's likely LyLo with a vote?

Singing Librarian should not die today. Sierra should, though. His failure to be lynched is a blight upon our town. Seriously.

I'm beginning to think massclaim is in order, no?

Your second post read:

Unvote

.

Thesp is right. We need to hit Mafia today.

Since I know you'll all ask for elaboration, I think SL may be the SK.

:hifive:

Only at the 3rd post you started claiming you thought SL was the SK. Why only then?

I knew we'd be massclaiming (or seriously considering it), and I didn't want to tip my hand early, in case someone was a watcher/tracker I could confirm, or something similar. I wanted to assert how important it was not to vote for SL yet, whilst alluding to it as circumspectly as possible that I knew SL was the SK.

Now, the "gone to fight justice" Day Scene message is obviously the kill method of the Manhunter android.

...

We have seen a kill method that is Manhunter-esque. We have not seen a kill method reminiscent of the Joker.

Where in the world does this come from?

I love how you just presume this - A sign posted "Gone to serve justice. Good Bye." and a missing person sure sounds like something The Joker would do, and I can't seem to find any imaginable way that it's fitting for Rocket Red #7.

Also, anyone believing Sierra due to lack of counterclaim is absurd. Seriously. Believe him for other reasons if you will, but believing him simply because no one else claimed vig (when it's a popular strategy to claim vig when you really do kill people) is terrible play.

This actually tips my opinion in favour of Thesp being town. If he was mafia and believed I was the SK, wouldn't he push for my lynch? Like HC did at the beginning of the day until called on it.

Good job confirming yourself as the SK. If I'm town, then my results must be right. Now, help us lynch mafia and you might have a shot at winning this game. If we lynch town, you have virtually no chance.

Vote: Haschel Cedricson.

I'll move my vote if and only if we have some certainty as to who his partner is, and you all think a non-HC lynch is better (in terms of certainty), but I doubt it.

[Thesp]

Also, anyone believing Sierra due to lack of counterclaim is absurd. Seriously. Believe him for other reasons if you will, but believing him simply because no one else claimed vig (when it's a popular strategy to claim vig when you really do kill people) is terrible play.

Then tell us, oh wise mistress of Delphi, who killed Roffman.

Ah. Silly me. Never mind, then, carry on.

[Thesp]

Where in the world does this come from?

I love how you just presume this - A sign posted "Gone to serve justice. Good Bye." and a missing person sure sounds like something The Joker would do, and I can't seem to find any imaginable way that it's fitting for Rocket Red #7.

According to the wiki, the Manhunter androids "infiltrated and liberated many planets disguised as living beings and created a "Cult of the Manhunters" that trained others to be their minions." Since the original purpose of the Manhunters was to see justice done, it's not much of a stretch to assume that the Manhunter SK killed ZONEACE and Sethaniel when you already know that Rocket Red #7 is in the game.

When I first read this, I thought I would be searching for a Cult Leader. When I saw three kills on Day 1, I assumed Mafia, SK, and Vig. The emotionless nature of the notes seems, to me, to be suggestive of somebody who has been reprogrammed to be in a cult.

A sign and a missing person does not sound like something the Joker would do at all. The Joker would use an electric joybuzzer or a novelty sword-pen or that trademark poison that makes people die of laughter.

I disagree with your assessment in so, so many ways.

Haschel, how do you explain Thesp knowing to claim such a role?

I think he guessed an uncommon role and got burned when it actually was in the game.

The more likely scenario is you thought a counter-claim would be the most likely way to lynch me.

Good job confirming yourself as the SK. If I'm town, then my results must be right.

The latter does not follow the former.

Are you suggesting that he could think I'm town while I'm claiming to have role-based infromation that he's the SK (and he's not the SK)? That's absurd.

I cannot imagine why anyone but Haschel Cedricson or I should be the lynch for the day. (Obviously, I think I should not be the lynch for the day and it should be HC, but I understand it may not be as evident from the 3rd person). It's evident that either HC or I are mafia (as HC has pointed out), and I cannot imagine a compelling enough case on someone else that one of us should swing.

[Thesp]

Anyhoo,

I disagree with your assessment in so, so many ways.

Care to explain what these ways are? I think my assessment makes a lot more sense than assuming the Joker is in the game.

I can't imagine how a posted sign indicates "Martian Manhunter". Culting people away would be so antithetical to the concept of the game as revealed (and wouldn't allow for doc protection from a thematic perspective), whereas The Joker killing someone and mocking the do-gooders with such a sign would be right up his alley.

[Thesp]

EBWOP:

EBWOP:

I cannot imagine why anyone but Haschel Cedricson or I should be the lynch for the day. (Obviously, I think I should not be the lynch for the day and it should be HC, but I understand it may not be as evident from the 3rd person). It's evident that either HC or I are mafia (as HC has pointed out), and I cannot imagine a compelling enough case on someone else that one of us should swing.

Replace my name with "Thesp" and I agree completely.

Replace my name with "Haschel Cedricson" and I agree completely.



(And the recursiveness will blow your mind!)

[Thesp]

Culting people away would be so antithetical to the concept of the game as revealed

Can you elaborate on this? I don't understand what you mean.

In a game where heroes fight, to have someone "die" because they left seems so different. (Of course, I also recognize I'm trying to play "outguess the mod" at that point, which is dangerous territory at any rate, and something to be cautious of.)

There could be some other possible set-ups, and if I'm wrong about Thesp and Haschel there could be tons of other possible set-ups. However, I've convinced myself that Thesp (more than HC) is speaking the truth, so SL should definitely be the lynch for today. I don't think SL is a SK. If he was, he would have admitted it after Thesp claimed. Most likely, he is mafia.

My information specifically intones that the Joker is out to get

everybody

. That implies quite strongly that he is a Serial Killer.

Re: my early comments on nameclaiming, why do you think I was concerned about role names? Even a cursory glance at anything on who Oracle is implies to The Joker that I'm a likely threat to him.

And happy birthday, Haschel Cedricscum!

[Thesp]

Thesp is lying. We can debate all we want about whether sending somebody on a mission is similar to cult reprogramming, but I think everybody but Thesp has agreed that it definitely is NOT something that the Joker would do. The Joker does not make sense.

I must have missed where

anyone

else agreed with you on this. Can you refresh my memory?

SL voting for me over Thesp does not makes sense. It might if SL was the Joker, but SL IS NOT THE JOKER.

It makes perfect sense for SL to do as Joker.

After all, if I die, it verifies my claim.

He can't afford for me to die until the endgame because it outs him for gosh-darn-absolute sure.

He's already slipped in suggesting I'm town without offering any reasonable explanation for my result - it should be painfully obvious at this point.

It's a possibility.

Sure, it's a possibility. BUt I don't think it's a very likely one, especially when it's already been reveal that we have some relatively obscure characters in here, like the Phantom Stranger and General Glory.

Playing "outguess the mod" is a terrible, terrible way to play mafia, yet you insist on falling back to it.

It's pretty clear what's going on here, I think.

[Thesp]

Placeholder post here (Mondays and Tuesdays are generally bad for me) - I'll contribute tonight.

[Thesp]

Unvote: Haschel Cedricson, Vote: Capricious

if it will get this god-forsaken day over.

[Thesp]

I have a lot of thoughts on this game, and I hope they're not taken personally. I try to be constructive, I may not be always, but I'll do my best.

Note: Mafia achieved their victory condition by lynching capricious and becoming greater than 51% of the players. But the setup could have allowed Haschel to tie with them (If 2 scum died to sk and vig), which is why I went to night rather than ending the game. The game was over when Haschel and Sierra both targeted Thesp.

I have issues with this policy. I did not see the purpose of dragging the game out when we'd already won. What would have happened if we chose to not kill? What if, instead, we'd lynched Sierra, and the doc blocked against our kill, leaving 2 vs. 2? Would we have played yet another day, even though the mafia had already won? What obligation would the mafia have had to continue playing the game in any reasonable manner (or even post at all)? I thought the last day continuing was agony enough, but going into night felt like punishment.

I'm not wild about post restriction roles, and I'm not sure how worthwhile it was to have General Glory in the game like this. That's just personal preference, but I think there's always a significant danger in the "you can't reveal this about your role" type of role, because it's always best if the town learns of what can't be revealed (otherwise the mod wouldn't add that to the role), and the player always has to fight against doing what is optimal.

I

hated

not having safeclaims, or useful information like that at all. I would have liked some flexibility with characters, and I was afraid I'd lose because I'd claim what someone else had by chance, and not because of how I played (which would be a terrible, terrible way to lose).

I was quite sure of cierco/SL in this game along along with Mirth. Also in the end, i was quite sure Sierra was town for some reason. Thesp played a good game - had me completely fooled ..

Thanks!

Town sort of didn't help their cause by not talking much before both the deadlines .. Roffman not claiming and then dying was bad for us ..

No kidding. That was serious happy-times for us.

Also, Thesp, why didn't you tell us you were a roleblocker? That would have been useful to know...

I totally forgot. I should have posted it right away in our QT, but I must have overlooked it. I never got a "No Choice Received" from our mod about it (which would have been helpful, but is again stylistic issues), but I suppose I should have noticed. Oh well.

I thought something was horribly wrong with SL when he kept finding me more suspicious than the person who was actively calling him the Joker. That should red flags.

This is very, very true.

Mod Note: Haschel was investigation immune. He just didn't know it.

Why not tell him? And what would General Glory have gotten on him?

I enjoyed playing with you all, and special thumbs-up to my scumbuddies, who did an excellent job keeping confusion high and usefulness for the town low.

[Thesp]

I

hated

not having safeclaims, or useful information like that at all. I would have liked some flexibility with characters, and I was afraid I'd lose because I'd claim what someone else had by chance, and not because of how I played (which would be a terrible, terrible way to lose).

I guess I assumed that Green Lantern, L-Ron, and Bloodwynd/Martian Manhunter were obvious safe claims, or maybe I'm the only one that reads that far into roles I recieve.

I don't know enough about the Justice League to know that Green Lantern would be totally safe - my fear was that I'd claim Green Lantern, and someone would say, "Wait a minute, evil-bad-person controlled Green Lantern in issues XX through YY! He's probably bad!". My bad.

And General Glory

did

get a "does not have evil intentions" on him.

What about the full role PM thingee (or did I misread that)?

Thanks, all!

[Thesp]

What were the nightchoices?

And I know I have a lot of critical things to say, but I do appreciate the time and effort in running this game. Thanks!