Mini 1936: Yume's Cutsie U-Pick (Town Win!)

[Cerberus v666]

Gg, congrats town.

Yume, you did super well. Basically the only person actively pushing the fact that there basically HAD to be scum withing ShiroRATR, and pointing out the one mistake I saw Rat make during his main thread day play: eroding confidence on your cop result, instead of simply being adamant that it would show he was town.

One mistake you did make though was lynching Rat today. Given that you knew there was scum in Shiro/RR, you basically had to decide if, all else being equal, Shiro would, as scum, fake that claim, or if Rat would scumclaim in a pt. Viewed from that perspective, both were equally likely to be scum flips. However, given the actions you took today and the assumptions being made, it just made more sense to, as Varsoon said, lynch Rat another day...which meant Shiro was the optimal lynch for the day.

The end result would have been the same, but I'm just cautioning you to not be results oriented and realize that though it worked this time in keeping scum from having an extra night, and it wouldn't have mattered in the end result of the game either way, the reasoning used was a bit off.

Regardless though, good job to most of the town.

@Aristophanes:I believe the secondary target of the deflect...should have been affected by my nexus outright. So, instead of there being a 50% chance of that shot being redirected, the deflect should have instead always ended up redirecting to someone else. Didn't end up mattering, but I think that makes more sense.

[Cerberus v666]

I'm really interested in how this would have played out if we had 1) actually performed our gambit properly, and 2) having failed to do so, instead went with plan B, killing town that night, and claiming that our IC claim was made to draw scum into shooting at us.

[Cerberus v666]

I'm pretty sure we did smooth talk ourselves out of it the entire game in SU2, and mastin just didn't have enough time to read the game to be convinced by all the smooth talking we did.

And sure, maybe. Since nobody else but you was pushing it, maybe he could have pulled it off. That's not relevant though, since you didn't know which option was correct at the time of your decision.

And Drixx retired? I wasn't aware of that. Hmm.

@Varsoon: it's all in the mod pt. Your BP was an automatic treestump instead of death, and your phoenix only worked on town. :p

Pedit: I know aristo! I'm just saying mechanically, the second target of a deflect is still being targeted by something(the deflect) therefore the nexus should still trigger.

[Cerberus v666]

Mafia, Dead, and Mod PTs are being released now. Review Thread too.

Any other hoods will not be released until the duration of the "N5" timer runs out. If you would not like it released, please say so.

I already have some requests for that, and thus will not be releasing them all.

I find this objectionable. We weren't asked if we wanted to release the mafia thread or not, for example. If people want to talk shit in private about people, they should grow up and be adults and stand by their shit talk when the game is over instead of be two faced and ask the mod to perpetuate their bullshit. If you won't say it to the person then don't say it at all. Cowards.

I missed that. Yeah, not okay for people to not release PTs.

I wouldn't call them cowards, but shitty people.

Pedit: then edit the personal issue stuff out? I know it's crappy to ask you to have to redacted details from conversations other people were too stupid to put in the appropriate location, but it's even crappier to mess with everyone's elses experience by not releasing things.

[Cerberus v666]

Well, it wouldn't have worked if you had tried anyways. :p

OH, ari, another thing: using varsona invention power to balance on the fly was pretty crappy. Either his inventions never work the way he wants, with you actively working to twist his meaning, or they always work the way he wants. Transitioning from maintaining the mechanical intent of his action to perverting it at the end wasn't great.

[Cerberus v666]

@Mastin - Please quote the post and explain exactly how you were certain our slot was scum from a post by Cerb on the first page. I'm setting aside the fact that you expressed the same certainty about at least one other slot and were wrong, as I'm sure you'll have some excuse for why you were really right. It had better be one hell of an explanation since you went so far as to lie and claim masons to try and get us lynched. (You might also explain why you no longer were so sure when we died). Seriously expecting a substantive response to this.

If it helps I was lying about lying about not being sure that you were scum when I did.

I just wanted you to vote with me. I super agree that you asking how strongly I believe in my read was a scumclaim.

Yeah, no, this is a lie.

You had a vig.

Unless you were specifically concerned with our NU, and I'd need to go back and double check exactly what/how/when Drixx claimed to determine if that was reasonable, you shoot us if you believed that was a scum claim.

Which it wasn't, in any way. Demanding that people actually explicitly state their positions is what I do. When dealing with people who I know regularly lie as town(you, and mastin, in this game), or who rarely acknowledge their misreads(mastin)town!me ALWAYS wants to ensure you're accountable for the positions you're putting forward.

[Cerberus v666]

Oh, and your position on our slot has no relation to mastins reasoning, AND that post wasn't even the one where she decided we were scum. It was some random thing I said on like the 2nd page of the game.

[Cerberus v666]

I think Drixx's objections are a little overblown. The most egregious thing was the fact that the deflector and the masonizer with in an all town pt with a third town around to work with, and there was a second conftown floating around. 3 conftown is at least one too many in a game this size.

[Cerberus v666]

Which is to say, enabling the creation of further conftown(up to 4 with that invention), just exacerbated the existing problem.

[Cerberus v666]

This has been a trend I've noticed in games recently though, so maybe you're not wholly to blame, but the site is. Just...large number of conftown, or effective conftown, in games. There's this reliance by moderators on the paranoia of town keeping these conftown scenarios in check, but that's not something you should design your game around.

[Cerberus v666]

Bloodborne proves paranoia-based design doesn't work

As does SU2, and this game, just in different ways.

[Cerberus v666]

Ginngie, I'm ALWAYS annoyed when town lie. 100% of the time.

Pedit: because she believe their masonizer claim, even though as an ascetic, it was impossible for them to actually verify it.

[Cerberus v666]

Also, mastina: you can't expect me to believe that was actually your reasoning, given that later on when varsoon claimed to create another "conftown", and you had every reason to believe I had actually been an IC, and you had seen zero scum flips, you gave the sappho/varsoon/yume group a pass.

[Cerberus v666]

Subject: Cutsie UPick: Dead PT

Also, I can't WAIT to see what mastin has to say when she sees we were the nk.

I don't know what you honestly expected. You claimed conftown. You died. We were protecting conftown. They lived. We strongly suspected we saved conftown N1, so. I knew either shenanigans had happened or that scum had just directly nightkilled you. What was there to react to?

The fact that you were wrong, there was an IC as far as you knew, therefore your OTHER assumptions about the setup should have been quite questionable.

Pedit: okies. After I was nkd, you didn't believe I was an IC, in spite of mastin using that as an argument later on. Sure.

[Cerberus v666]

Ginngie, I'm ALWAYS annoyed when town lie. 100% of the time.

Pedit: because she believe their masonizer claim, even though as an ascetic, it was impossible for them to actually verify it.

oh ok so she didnt know she just assumed they weren't lying

Yes. I don't actually know exactly what was said in that pt, or the hydra pt, so I can't provide her reasoning. :p

[Cerberus v666]

It's pretty easy when we crumbed our role in a simple enough way to figure out, and you're part of the redirection chain, and you're also ascetic yourself, so you know an option for NU is already taken.

Mastin: you still haven't answered Drixxs question, which you should probbaly do if you have any desire to have any sort of cordial conversation with him in the future(just a warning).

[Cerberus v666]

Oh, and I also want your thoughts on whether or not the nexus should have caught your deflect. Because if you look closely, you'll see the deflect went through fine, it was my kill protection that redirected the shot.

[Cerberus v666]

You mean my scum confession?

Yeah I PROBABLY shouldn't have done that but it didn't go as awfully as it could have at least.

But yeah. I AM dumb enough to do that.
My first Forum Mafia game ever (off-site) I actually claimed Mafia in the main thread as Town just because I waa frustrated no one was listening to me, and I thought flipping Town would make them take my reads seriously.

So, that play would have worked quite well if you had got lynched that day. Even with firebringer summing the hell out of the slot, a scum flip from you could have been enough to get an extra mislynch or two in, because without knowing I was scum the town would have had to be wary of you throwing your life away in order to secure the one mislynch it would take for scum to win, as far as they knew. Dunno what Vax could have done in lylo, but I think he always makes it to a lylo if you get lynched on that day.

Basically the only person actively pushing the fact that there basically HAD to be scum withing ShiroRATR.

Actually I was rather adamant about it, too. (I mean I was thinking Shiro because Nacho told me Radical Rat was town and even Jae was doubting that Radical Rat would be scum, but I wasn't gonna let Radical Rat off the hook. I was thinking in the 75% or so confidence range that "lynch one, if game continues, lynch the other", with the remaining 25% being gerryoat as scum but I was also thinking that we'd be dead so I wouldn't have a chance to figure it out. We lived, which was even better.)

I just kept it to our mason PT which you currently can't see but I hope you will because it will show things like the exact timestamp at which I called you a Nexus (the same day of your claim and not long after engaging you; when I said I knew your role, I MEANT that

I knew your role

and the PT will prove as much), among many others.

In the game thread I might not have been the main driver (that was Ginngie) but behind closed doors I was doing like 75% of the legwork for my slot. I was the one who came up with most of our plans. So much so, that I have a two-page iso there if memory serves me. And that's on mastina, not counting the times I posted on TWC.

Nope. You don't get to take credit for things you didn't ever say in the game. Maybe if you said it to Sappho you can claim it, but otherwise...you didn't actually leave that information for town to listen to in the event you did die. Your slot was pushing the exact mislynch Rat needed(a not!Shiro mislynch) to have a good shot at winning in lylo, when there was a FAR GREATER than 90% chance scum was in Shiro/Rat.

[Cerberus v666]

Drixx did. I take no blame for that. He sent me a message on slack being all like "should I just hammer?" And by the time I checked my phone, 10 minutes later, he had already hammered.

IT WAS HIS GAMBIT TOO! *sigh*

@aristo: I understand that, but that means that your position is that the person deflected to is not actually being targeted, which just seems wrong. If you're a deflector, and you deflect from x to someone who is ascetic...it should fail. It shouldn't make the cop check on x instead hit the ascetic and fail.

[Cerberus v666]

As Drixx said in his entry to this game, his like for yume outweighed his distaste for mastina. Can't let people you dislike keep you from things you enjoy.

@mastina: that's weird. My 185 wasn't an excuse for anything. I was reading through the game on my phone at work and WANTED to contribute, but didn't have the time to actually go back and reread the chansey stuff to figure out who it was. It was like, the epitome of NAI from me, in that it occurred entirely because in my real life I just didn't have time to do something and wanted someone to help me by giving me the necessary context.

[Cerberus v666]

@all the people: imagine a universe where TWC, Sappho, Varsoon, or Yume are killed N2. D3, Drixx and I claim that we fake claimed IC so we could get scum to shoot at us(with the added benefit of not having to fight with mastina).

How does that play out? Please try to ignore your knowledge of how the rest of the game played out. ^^

[Cerberus v666]

Eh, idk about that, I think I get along pretty well with mastina, in spite of my distaste for some of her methods, so that could have worked out better than expected.

The part where you pointed out my frequently expressed tendency to fake emotions totally threw me off for a second. Which you should be proud of. Usually I have an instant response to stuff(at least a vague outline, making the words come out exactly the way I want takes time), but at first I had no idea what to say.

[Cerberus v666]

Re: 1819.

Sure, it's his choice, but I'm just giving you the insight I, as someone who he has spoken with about things, has. Just letting you know that completely ignoring him(which is something you do A LOT when it comes to drixx or I pressuring you to lay out the reasoning being something. You just...ignore us.) wasn't going to be well received.

I'm pretty content given that you specified what post got your attention, why, and I know it was pure happenstance. ^^

[Cerberus v666]

Oh, speaking of gambits: the mason gambit was PROBABLY much higher risk than you believed it to be. You essentially made it 50/50 between you controlling the scum kill(which was a mostly null result, since Ihe kill was most likely going to hit town, and which there was a decent chance you wouldn't actually be able to do since if a strongman was available, it would definitely have been used on the mason claims N1), and you dying. Unless you believe you, with your role, didn't have much to contribute, the risk was QUITE high, and the reward essential nonexistent, because you INCLUDED the actual masons in your gambit, so they were still in the line of fire.

I get your reasoning, but I disagree with your cost/benefit analysis.

Pedit: mastina, you seem to be going off the deep end with Drixx right now. He hasn't done a quarter of what you're accusing him of doing in this conversation. :/

[Cerberus v666]

@all the people: imagine a universe where TWC, Sappho, Varsoon, or Yume are killed N2. D3, Drixx and I claim that we fake claimed IC so we could get scum to shoot at us(with the added benefit of not having to fight with mastina).

How does that play out? Please try to ignore your knowledge of how the rest of the game played out. ^^

I wanted to votepark you until you activated the ic fwiw

Yes, but that's not the question. The question is....when we claim we fake claimed the IC so we would get shot at, because our role let us redirect the first kill directed at us(or something like that), does that make you slot us as town or scum.

[Cerberus v666]

Only thing of worth I probably have to say here is sorry to town for not showing up at any point; sorry to TWC for bailing on you, that wasn't right, my scumread on you wasn't exactly real, my brain/emotions were just fucked over and when that happens my reads go in shitty directions that don't connect with reality; I'm both yes and no about JR's posts being deleted from the Velvet Room - on the one hand no one needs to read that, on the other hand the fact that it happened just being deleted from existence makes me feel like I no longer have any right to be hurt by it and should also just erase it from my memory. I redacted most of my posts from all PTs, don't think I said anything at any point that was worth reading anyway. Since the scumreads on you seem important to you, Cerb, I didn't redact my post about you (pretty sure I made a grand total of one). Don't recall there being any shittalking at any point.

Hope you had fun, Yume. <3

The scum reads aren't important to me. Only mastinas is, because in I can't even recall how many games, this is the first time she's actually explicitly stated that half of what she says is bullshit, which is what I ALWAYS believed, but she always spent all her time patting herself on the back, and not acknowledging screwing up in a pure way. That is, without a bunch of "yes, I fucked up, but!!!"

@mastina: I think the fundamental problem I have with the way you handle thInga is that refusal to apologize for having the wrong reasons for a right read. If I get lucky, which is what that essentially is, I'll own that shit, and the fact that you seem incapable of doing so makes it aggravating to try to discuss things with you.

Pedit: aris rulings on redirection mean he should never have it in his games ever again.

[Cerberus v666]

Cerb you aren't nearly as good as you think you are.

I don't think anyone is nearly as good as they think they are.

Some are closer than others though.

And some are further.

[Cerberus v666]

Yeah, had we not decided to go with the gambit, most likely we role block Yume and kill TWC. MAYBE we kill Yume instead, but I would have argued against that.

It would have definitely been interesting. I don't think I had the drive to make things work though. *shrug*

Pedit: your claim that a lot of people saw us as scum as the same time is meaningless. It was D1, and people are sheep. Once mastina decided we were scum, it was inevitable that sheep who respect her would follow, because there's literally no reason not to.

[Cerberus v666]

Also, RC: did you miss where mastina pointed out the post that got her scumreading us, which was essentially a meaningless post that occurs regardless of my alignment 100% of the time in that situation , where I want to participate but something is confusing me so I need it explained because I don't have time to look it up?

[Cerberus v666]

Pedit: your claim that a lot of people saw us as scum as the same time is meaningless. It was D1, and people are sheep. Once mastina decided we were scum, it was inevitable that sheep who respect her would follow, because there's literally no reason not to.

I had the same independent conclusion. I was busy dealing with a bunch of unnecessary lies that made something feel like scumpartners, but I definitely thought that you were scum for the same set of posts that Mastina did. Our positions were not based on magic and witchcraft.

Also, RC: did you miss where mastina pointed out the post that got her scumreading us, which was essentially a meaningless post that occurs regardless of my alignment 100% of the time in that situation , where I want to participate but something is confusing me so I need it explained because I don't have time to look it up?

You're conflating

'I would definitely not understand how serious RC's read and would want to clarify it'
and
'I would make exactly that post in exactly that statement in exactly that context as scum.'

So, you did miss the post? Because THAT post wasn't even the one she was scumreading me for...

[Cerberus v666]

The problem is Cerberus & Drixx looking for the problem (them getting scumread) externally rather than internally.

That's also not true. I want people to express what they saw so as to avoid doing such things in the future, but all the answers I'm getting don't actually help.

There are posts I made with a scum mindset, and scum intention. There are posts I made in a purely reactionary, wholly me being me regardless of alignment fashion.

The latter are the ones being noted, which means none of you are ACTUALLY catching the scummy posts. You're interpreting NAI posts as scummy, which means you're getting lucky, rather than actually catching things.

Do note that you don't actually have any way to know my thought process when making those posts. I assure you, when I say a post is wholly NAI, it is. I would love it if someone actually attacked me over a scummy post I've made, but they don't.

[Cerberus v666]

I can't prove that Mastina correctly scumread you. I know exactly why I scumread you and I stand by it and I think it's perfectly reasonable that Mastina could have done so as well.

Can you link me games where you and Mastina were both town that show a pattern of her incorrectly scumreading you?

You should ask Drixx for that, I don't think she scumreads me all the time. I also think that there's only one game we've had together where we were the same alignment, and she was actually participating a lot, and I was an IC in that game, so...doesn't really count.

I've played a lot more games versus scum!mastina than I have with town!mastina.

[Cerberus v666]

Oh, and I already addressed that post? I mean, I do get why it might have seemed weird to you guys, because I hadn't, in our previous games together, asked that particular question...but in those previous games, I didn't actually know you were both prone to lying and misleading town. You two, in particular, are people who I will always insist on nailing down regarding the strength of your reads, because unlike others, I know you're willing to lie about the strength of those reads to make people do what you want them to do.

pedit: And you're not getting what I'm saying. The posts you're noting were made with little enough thought that it simply isn't possible that scumminess crept into them, save for whatever scumminess my posts innately possess. I'm saying those posts WEREN'T LIES. They just were.

[Cerberus v666]

Sure. The problem though is my posting is scummy to some extent all of the time. :p
And sure, I don't necessarily possess the self awareness to see the scum in my posts, but enough people who know me and my speech and thought patterns far better than you or mastina also fail to see anything out of the ordinary in those posts, so....

[Cerberus v666]

I forgot about ff7, I was...not really participating in that game, but yeah we were both town there. Also in SU. , which is where I was IC. Also in Wdpt, but you weren't really playing that game.

So, one game that counts imo.

[Cerberus v666]

Oh, and I was in Inorganic, but as town.

[Cerberus v666]

This game made me want to stay retired.

Hey fb, you should rejoin our holy grail search.

[Cerberus v666]

trying to out wallpost Mastina.

Hahahaha Good Luck!

I think killing Reasonably Rational instead of TWC was the point where Scum lost it. It was clever, but not helpful at all. And it left strong players with a strong role (which was Ascetic so you could kill it with no issues if you had tried) alive to save more conftown.

Yeah, during that night phase drixx and I didn't get to talk much, but I had a lot of thoughts of just shooting elsewhere, blocking yume, and seeing what we could pull off with our day play.

The problem was 1) the quickhammer. It supported us legitimately being ICs, but didn't help too much with the narrative of wanting to be shot at, and 2) lack of engagement on either of our parts. I don't know if we would have been able to keep from just getting instalynched, especially since our teammates had standing orders to bus us if we were still alive on D3.

hey guyz
I would like to thank Torque for getting our slot modkilled.
I would like to thank mastina for deathtunneling me the third time we were both town together.
I would like to thank Ginngie who while had an understanding of how my scumgame works, not knowing how to identify it properly
I would like to thank nancy for talking me out of my Rat scumread
I would like to thank Jae for- This one is being saved for PMs.
I would like to thank Drixx, Cerby, and Varsoon for being joys to play with
I would like to thank Ari for modding
I would like to thank Yume for being a joy to play with and for improving a lot.

<3

Also, yes, thank you Ari for running the game. Even if I complain about the setup, which I basically always do, I really do appreciate you putting in the time.

[Cerberus v666]

I would like to thank Drixx, Cerby, and Varsoon for being joys to play with

HECK YEAH
I ENJOYED PLAYIN WITH YA TOO

Seriously though, if folks are gonna post 5+ pages in post-game, please talk about meeeeeeeeeeee

VARSOON YOU DIDN'T SAY ANYTHING IN THE GAME HOW CAN I TALK ABOUT YOU WHEN YOU DIDN'T DO ANYTHING BUT BECOME CONFTOWN AND LISTEN TO YUME????