Mini 1936: Yume's Cutsie U-Pick (Town Win!)


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Post Post #1747 (isolation #0) » Wed Aug 30, 2017 10:50 am

Post by mastina »

In post 1687, Cerberus v666 wrote:Basically the only person actively pushing the fact that there basically HAD to be scum withing ShiroRATR.
Actually I was rather adamant about it, too. (I mean I was thinking Shiro because Nacho told me Radical Rat was town and even Jae was doubting that Radical Rat would be scum, but I wasn't gonna let Radical Rat off the hook. I was thinking in the 75% or so confidence range that "lynch one, if game continues, lynch the other", with the remaining 25% being gerryoat as scum but I was also thinking that we'd be dead so I wouldn't have a chance to figure it out. We lived, which was even better.)

I just kept it to our mason PT which you currently can't see but I hope you will because it will show things like the exact timestamp at which I called you a Nexus (the same day of your claim and not long after engaging you; when I said I knew your role, I MEANT that
I knew your role
and the PT will prove as much), among many others.

In the game thread I might not have been the main driver (that was Ginngie) but behind closed doors I was doing like 75% of the legwork for my slot. I was the one who came up with most of our plans. So much so, that I have a two-page iso there if memory serves me. And that's on mastina, not counting the times I posted on TWC.
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Post Post #1751 (isolation #1) » Wed Aug 30, 2017 10:56 am

Post by mastina »

RadiantCowbells wrote:the lynch on my slot was a fucking joke
says a lot about sappho/twc/alihydra that they were -so confident- that I was scum
Btw blame Ginngie for that one. :P
My fault was more in a repeat of Steven Universe Prequel in that I didn't stop my hydra partner. :P (So I do have blame, but not THAT type of blame. :P I knew better than to try and read you. I was trusting in Ginngie, JaeReed, and nancy's reads in particular.)
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Post Post #1753 (isolation #2) » Wed Aug 30, 2017 11:00 am

Post by mastina »

Subject: Cutsie UPick: Dead PT
Cerberus v666 wrote:Mastin lied about being fucking conftown to try to force through our lynch on D1. Wtf is that?
Because I wasn't lying! I was just HALF-lying. In that at the time I knew TWC wasn't masons (obv) but I knew SAPPHO were masons. Because I knew Sappho were masons, I knew that it was unlikely for there to be masons + Innocent Child. I mislead, but I didn't really lie.
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Post Post #1757 (isolation #3) » Wed Aug 30, 2017 11:07 am

Post by mastina »

Subject: Cutsie UPick: Dead PT
Cerberus v666 wrote:Also, I can't WAIT to see what mastin has to say when she sees we were the nk.
I don't know what you honestly expected. You claimed conftown. You died. We were protecting conftown. They lived. We strongly suspected we saved conftown N1, so. I knew either shenanigans had happened or that scum had just directly nightkilled you. What was there to react to?
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Post Post #1770 (isolation #4) » Wed Aug 30, 2017 11:16 am

Post by mastina »

Subject: Cutsie UPick: Mod PT
Aristophanes wrote:
In post 447, mastina wrote:I mean.
That would of course require.
Scumteam jankill Jae/nancy-->deflected to Reasonably Rational-->Nexus'd to randomidget.
But.
I actually buy that?
Holy shit! Lmao
Hiw do you even guess this!?!?
I'm MASTINA.
I'm good at this kind of thing. :P
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Post Post #1774 (isolation #5) » Wed Aug 30, 2017 11:23 am

Post by mastina »

Subject: Cutsie UPick: Mod PT
Alisae wrote:I don't even know why I was scumread besides "tone" and mastina I don't think has the ability to toneread me, also I can't remember if my scumgame and towngame has tonal differences? I'll have to ask some people about that.
Blame Night and Day for that. Every member of the masonry (once Ginngie privately informed Nacho) knew you were scum there, but we couldn't exactly say so in the PT while that game was still ongoing. You insisted you couldn't be scum doing things that you, as scum in Night and Day, had done and
all of us knew you had done
. So we were in the position where we knew you were lying but we couldn't call you out directly on the lie without compromising Night and Day.
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Post Post #1779 (isolation #6) » Wed Aug 30, 2017 11:32 am

Post by mastina »

Subject: Cutsie UPick: Mod PT
Cerberus v666 wrote:The objective was to setup town to musky check conftown for us, because we had already failed a kill on one of the masons. There was also supposed to be WAY more in the way of associatives and such than we actually had time to setup, given how incredibly fast the days were.
And who, pray tell, hammered D2 and thus ended the day preventing time for more associatives to be set up?

:P
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Post Post #1784 (isolation #7) » Wed Aug 30, 2017 11:43 am

Post by mastina »

Subject: Cutsie UPick: Mod PT
Aristophanes wrote:
In post 729, mastina wrote:To lay it out in greater detail:
TONIGHT, NIGHT FOUR:
-gerryoat cops Radical Rat.
-Yume tracks gerryoat with the delayed track.
-We deflect Varsoon-->Shiro.
-Varsoon gives a powerful gift to Yume.
-Scum PROBABLY kill The Wood Cutters, though the game is easier if they don't. :P

DAY FIVE:
-gerryoat outs his cop result.
-If innocent, we lynch Shiro. (This is my expected outcome.)
-If guilty, we lynch Radical Rat.

NIGHT FIVE:
-Yume uses their powerful gift as best appropriate. If a roleblock/track/follow/etc. which can catch the last scum, target whichever of Shiro/Radical Rat was not lynched.
-Varsoon gifts to Yume (presumably a vig but it can be anything).
-Scum PROBABLY kill Varsoon, though the game is easier if they don't.

DAY SIX:
-Yume receives the result of the track on gerryoat. (If gerryoat did not target who he said he did, he's scum.)
-Yume also has the information from the usage of their role.
-Yume outs this information.
-From this information, it can be determined which of gerryoat/the survivor is scum.
-Lynch appropriately.

I need this plan fact-checked. But we know:
-Scum cannot self-busdrive. As a result, they cannot gain a gift.
-Scum cannot trump our deflect with a busdrive. As a result, they cannot interfere with Varsoon as long as we live.
-Scum likely have a busdrive. As a result, they may be able to cause actions targeting one town player to instead hit a different town player. HOWEVER, this is of little consequence, since they cannot self-busdrive and as a result they are unable to mess with investigatives. A cop targeting town will either get a result on THAT town, or a DIFFERENT town. A cop targeting scum will get a guaranteed result on scum. And so on and so forth.

I'm trying to figure out how to lock this down even further, to accommodate for every possibility, for every busdrive that could be taken, for every redirect action (unlikely as that could be) being taken, for every possible truth or lie, but I think this is pretty solid?
This is good, but it has its problems!
Welcome to every mastowna plan ever conceived. :P

I have a GOOD grasp on how to make plans, and how to make winning plans at that.
I don't have a GREAT grasp on how to make winning plans in that they are always, 100% of the time, with a crucial flaw that keeps them from being as good as I wanted.
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Post Post #1788 (isolation #8) » Wed Aug 30, 2017 11:46 am

Post by mastina »

In post 1693, gerryoat wrote:TWC why u so scummy >.>
We weren't! Every step of the way we bled town. In-game-thread, in our PT, everywhere.

Y u so bad at reading us?
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Post Post #1791 (isolation #9) » Wed Aug 30, 2017 12:00 pm

Post by mastina »

In post 1698, Reasonably Rational wrote:
@Mastin
- Please quote the post and explain exactly how you were certain our slot was scum from a post by Cerb on the first page.
?
I didn't call you scum from a post on the first page.

The scumread originated from here:
In post 185, Reasonably Rational wrote:The post restricion is already making it difficulty for me to identify who is being talked about at times. Who is Chansey? A link to the post where the nickname is connected to the slot would be sufficient.

-Cerb
And that's easy to explain. It was the complaining combined with the lack of understanding. I can't vocalize why that was scum but it was very much strongly indicative to me of you being scum making excuses for not being as involved as you should have been for a game of this nature.
In post 1698, Reasonably Rational wrote:I'm setting aside the fact that you expressed the same certainty about at least one other slot and were wrong
That alone should prove it wasn't personal! I get reads on players. Sometimes right, sometimes wrong. This is to be expected.
as I'm sure you'll have some excuse for why you were really right.
Not unless you count "I'm blaming Ginngie!". :P
(You might also explain why you no longer were so sure when we died).
Well duh. It's because you died. Of course I'm going to assume three scum still alive and that you were town. That's the safest thing to do. It's more conservative. From the viewpoint of the uninformed, if they assume two scum alive when three scum are alive it can be disastrous to the town. If they assume three scum alive when there are two scum alive then no harm done. That simple.

You in our position would do no different. You'd assume three scum because you'd assume the worst-case scenario because you'd assume the course of action safest for the town to take. Simple, mechanical, methodical processing. Of course I thought it possible you were scum and that the scum killed you (albeit, accidentally, as I did not assume you would be suicidal enough to just outright shoot yourselves), but I gave the benefit of the doubt and assumed you were town when you died because it was safer to assume that.

You claimed Innocent Child. You got nightkilled. You were less likely to be bullshitting about your role and more likely to be town who was nightkilled by scum to prevent the confirmation. That was the conclusion more likely to be made so of course I made it. It wasn't right because I was working with imperfect knowledge but it is what I had at the time.
@Yume
- REALLY well played game.
No argument here by the way. Yume played exceptionally well! I was really glad things worked out as well as they did and I was happy to support Yume even if my support was limited to supporting Varsoon who was supporting Yume.
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Post Post #1793 (isolation #10) » Wed Aug 30, 2017 12:02 pm

Post by mastina »

In post 1705, Aristophanes wrote:There were some personal issues aired in PTs and thus those involved do not want them released. It has nothing to do with talking shit. That is all I will disclose.
Btw you can release The Wood Cutters' PT, for how little we used it. :P (We only used it at the very beginning when there were concerns about who had access to our neighborhood, and after those melted away, we exclusively used the mason PT.)
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Post Post #1800 (isolation #11) » Wed Aug 30, 2017 12:09 pm

Post by mastina »

In post 1720, Cerberus v666 wrote:It was some random thing I said on like the 2nd page of the game.
You say random thing, I say condemning thing.

Extrapolating something from nothing is just what I
do
. You know this so it shouldn't be a surprise I did so to you. :P

I did give you legit a lot of leeway once you claimed IC because I didn't think you would be suicidal enough to claim a role you couldn't prove since that is a very, very, VERY UnReasonable-Rational thing to do. I even noted many, many times what would happen for both gamesets, you as town and you as scum. With your nightkill, the you-as-town was even the one more likely, and even if it wasn't I was going to work under the assumption it was in order to be safe.

Now does this mean that when I extrapolate something from nothing it's going to be accurate? Fuck no I get it wrong all the time and I did so multiple times this game, it's proven in my reads/stances on other players this game just as much as the right ones are. But for better or worse, extrapolating something from nothing is one of the main ways I scumhunt.

I just ~see~ things.
My explanation for those things, often bullshit, but I see them and do my best to work with what I saw.
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Post Post #1802 (isolation #12) » Wed Aug 30, 2017 12:11 pm

Post by mastina »

In post 1722, Cerberus v666 wrote:I think Drixx's objections are a little overblown. The most egregious thing was the fact that the deflector and the masonizer with in an all town pt with a third town around to work with, and there was a second conftown floating around. 3 conftown is at least one too many in a game this size.
I mean.
I don't disagree.

But what can you do.
We were dealt the most broken OP hand of all time, so we played the most broken OP hand of all time. :P
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Post Post #1807 (isolation #13) » Wed Aug 30, 2017 12:23 pm

Post by mastina »

In post 1744, Yume wrote:Well, all this endgame needs is for my honorary brother and TWC to show up and announce their opinions.
You did wonderfully. <3

I think that the town nailed mechanics and the scum made several mechanical misplays (shooting your own member, when there was a known deflector in the game, was something with high risk and low reward; leaving The Wood Cutters alive as a potential mislynch allowed us to protect conftown the entire game, when we were nigh-invincible from the mislynch and thus the scum left a souped-up doctor alive for a possibility which was never realistically materializing; shooting Sappho before they knew about the real roles was something understandable but was the worst possible action for them).

I think that in terms of play, the scum also made many blunders and many town players had accurately locked onto either right reads, right reasoning, or even both. However,
that being said
. The town misvigged and weren't really close to getting a scum lynch D1. The town quicklynched a mislynch D2. The town was on its way to mislynching D3 and the only thing which stopped that was town accidentally getting themselves modkilled. The town was close to mislynching multiple times even past D3.

So it's not like town were performing stellarly. They had good moments, they had bad moments. Scum also had some clever ideas and were playing respectably well in that it took a while for them to go down and their gambits did throw the town off. It's just that the town's gambits tended to actually work whereas the scum's gambits...didn't pan out for one reason or another.

I think that going into more specifics aside from this general outlook would probably cause more harm than good, since postgame is a place meant primarily for positive reinforcement. So I won't single out any sub-optimal moments (unless they're my own and maybe also Ginngie's), but I will give some further encouragement to good ones like Yume's game-wide performance. Yume got better and better as the game progressed and my expectations were blown out of the water. <3

Aside from the ~drama~ (of which there is some nasty, NASTY amounts I am quite privy to), I had a blast the entire time. I was enjoying every moment of it and was kinda glad we got to live through the whole thing in spite of our massively-broken role, because it gave me the chance to work with the entirety of the town pretty much in gamesolving. Including witnessing Yume's growth. <3
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Post Post #1808 (isolation #14) » Wed Aug 30, 2017 12:26 pm

Post by mastina »

In post 1754, Ginngie wrote:Scum are always salty when mastina does her gambits
And yet they never learn to just nightkill me and reveal the gambit until it's too late.

:P
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Post Post #1813 (isolation #15) » Wed Aug 30, 2017 12:36 pm

Post by mastina »

In post 1755, Randomnamechange wrote:
In post 1753, mastina wrote:Subject: Cutsie UPick: Dead PT
Cerberus v666 wrote:Mastin lied about being fucking conftown to try to force through our lynch on D1. Wtf is that?
Because I wasn't lying! I was just HALF-lying. In that at the time I knew TWC wasn't masons (obv) but I knew SAPPHO were masons. Because I knew Sappho were masons, I knew that it was unlikely for there to be masons + Innocent Child. I mislead, but I didn't really lie.
how did you know they were masons?
Aside from me being their girlfriend and me having a bit of an unfair advantage there. (There's a reason that I'm tending to try and not play in the same game as either nancy or JaeReed unless we share a slot. :P) Aside from having read them as town and known both of their play was way outside of their scum range.

They claimed to us on D1. They claimed their flavor was mastina. I instantly knew that to be true because no duh my girlfriends in a Cute UPick are going to pick me as being cute. (Plus we were in a SCUMMERS neighborhood so they had to be a scummer.) They claimed their role was a 1x masonizer. Aristophanes was in camn's revenge, where that was my fakeclaim and it directly led to the scum fucking up when my role was mistakenly posted as REALLY BEING a 1x masonizer. I knew it was a role he was likely to turn from a fakeclaim into a realclaim. It was just ~right~ on every level. And aside from that, JaeReed hates lying about their role and was adamant to claim it.

So it was a combination of player dynamics and mod dynamics and them just telling us in that it was painfully obvious, clear as day, that they were telling the truth and really were, legit, genuinely, a 1x masonizer. So with me knowing that Sappho was a 1x masonizer. I knew that masons + IC + this being a mini = very unlikely combination because it'd be too much conftown. (Well, so I thought.) So I fakeclaimed mason because it wasn't really a fakeclaim so much as it was a half-true claim. TWC not-masons, but Sappho legit-masons.

The claim was zero-risk, decent-reward. We lost nothing from it, and we couldn't have lost anything from it. We could gain a lot from it, including covering the real-masons and making sure they wouldn't be harmed.

To be honest I'm not sure what I'd have thought if you claimed your role. Even-night friendly neighbor is, on the one hand, still conftown in a game with a lot of conftown. But on the other hand it is far more massively nerfed than an IC in that an IC is publicly conftown whereas an even-night friendly neighbor is privately conftown, only if their action succeeds (when it can fail), and has a time delay. If I told you I'd read you one way for sure, it'd be a lie because I legit don't know how I'd have treated you.

But I for sure though the IC claim was bullshit when we knew there was a 1x masonizer in the game.
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Post Post #1814 (isolation #16) » Wed Aug 30, 2017 12:40 pm

Post by mastina »

In post 1756, Cerberus v666 wrote:Pedit: because she believe their masonizer claim, even though as an ascetic, it was impossible for them to actually verify it.
I had every reason to.
It fit the flavor.
It fit the people claiming.
It fit everything perfectly.

It just made ~so much sense~ and I knew JaeReed wouldn't lie about their role as town and even as scum would be uncomfortable with a lie like that and I was very confident they were town so it just was a claim we knew was town.

You wouldn't believe the number of times I did ask myself, "Could Sappho actually be scum who fakeclaimed masonizer with intent to "masonize" a scumbuddy?", but every time. I dismissed it as the paranoia it was. Because I knew it was just that, paranoia, and I REFUSED to so much as
express
the paranoia. Not in the PT, not to Ginngie, not to anyone. I refused to acknowledge it because I just knew they weren't scum.
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Post Post #1815 (isolation #17) » Wed Aug 30, 2017 12:42 pm

Post by mastina »

In post 1759, Randomnamechange wrote:oh ok so she didnt know she just assumed they weren't lying
It aint an assumption when you have extensive meta knowledge of your girlfriends and know them on a deeply intimate level. :P
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Post Post #1816 (isolation #18) » Wed Aug 30, 2017 12:48 pm

Post by mastina »

In post 1761, Cerberus v666 wrote:Also, mastina: you can't expect me to believe that was actually your reasoning, given that later on when varsoon claimed to create another "conftown", and you had every reason to believe I had actually been an IC, and you had seen zero scum flips, you gave the sappho/varsoon/yume group a pass.
Because they were mutually conftown.

There were two possibilities at that point.

One. Yume/Varsoon/Sappho was the scumteam. Yume was conftown to Varsoon. Varsoon and Sappho were mutually conftown.
Or Two. Yume/Varsoon/Sappho were all town.

And Sappho is the player we had been in the PT the entire game with.
Seeing their thought process
every step of the way
, on a very, very intimate level.
We also got to see the ugly drama there firsthand.
We also have extensive game experience with both heads. We know how they operate, we've seen them in games, we've seen their play as both alignments.
We also know what they are likely to pick.
And we also knew what Aristophanes was likely to make.
We had every reason to believe Sappho was conftown.

With Sappho as conftown, Varsoon becomes conftown.
With Varsoon as conftown, Yume becomes conftown.

There was never anything to question because there was never any reason to question Sappho's alignment. Past the very beginning of the game, that is. Was it perhaps unfair that you got an effective masonry of five players who have extensive game experience with one another? Sure. But it was what it was. We were never doubting Sappho this game because we were never going to consider what we had seen as their scumgame. Because our experience was our experience.
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Post Post #1817 (isolation #19) » Wed Aug 30, 2017 12:52 pm

Post by mastina »

In post 1763, Ginngie wrote:
In post 1762, Ginngie wrote:Did we ever believe you were actually IC?
I don't think we did?
I mean we both did, and didn't.
In that I treated them as if it were real, because that was the safest plan, but pre-Reasonably Rational-nightkill, I also made plans for if it wasn't real. (Our PT will show that quite a lot!)

I assumed it was real after their nightkill, because that was the safer assumption to make: the more conservative option, the option in which there were still three scum alive. (I knew Reasonably Rational wouldn't lie as town so the options were scum shenanigans or town realclaiming and eating a nightkill for it.) But even then I believe I made many a posts to the effect of "things become so much simpler if Reasonably Rational and/or randomidget were scum", yet in those posts, emphasizing once again that we couldn't afford to make the assumption scum were already dead. We had to assume three scum alive until we had proof otherwise.
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Post Post #1819 (isolation #20) » Wed Aug 30, 2017 1:08 pm

Post by mastina »

In post 1772, Cerberus v666 wrote:Mastin: you still haven't answered Drixxs question, which you should probbaly do if you have any desire to have any sort of cordial conversation with him in the future(just a warning).
I mean that's his decision because if he thinks I'm going to have bias and call you scum no matter what, that's on him and we can't actually talk on a level playing field?

I had a scumread.
That scumread was correct.
He holds issue with the scumread.
But it was right.

He can cry right-for-the-wrong-reasons all he likes. I give credence to that by saying that I tend to bullshit with my reasoning, this is a known fact about me and I do it towards every player. But if he assumes it is something specific to him...I can't really change his stance there, now, can I? This is how I treat all players. I don't discriminate. If he assumes that I was making up a scumread because it was him, I can't really change his stance there, now, can I?

I've explained my methods before, I've explained how I operate, how it's a weird combination of both a methodical process and yet also whimsy, method to the madness, madness to the method. How I see things and try to build them up even if I don't fully understand them. How I will latch onto things, right or wrong. Sometimes I get things right, other times I get them wrong. As per what you'd expect in any game, I got some right and some wrong.

I've acknowledged multiple times things I got wrong. Chiefly Alisae, though I also contributed to the RadiantCowbells/Virtuoso debacle. And in spite of me making an epic case against Radical Rat multiple times in the PT, ultimately I'd have lynched Shiro before him so in that regard I read Shiro wrong and I wasn't too pleased with gerryoat either (and figured it wasn't my job to sort that anyway). I got a BUNDLELOAD of role stuff wrong. Assuming scum had a busdriver, for instance. Assuming I could game Varsoon's power when as per word of Aristophanes I couldn't. The like there.

But I'm not going to apologize for things I got right. Pushing you as scum. Being adamant Sappho was town. Correctly calling your role and even how N1 played out. And so on and so forth. I have the right to be wrong and I also have the right to be right. Can you say you honestly disagree? That I don't have the right to be right, or that I don't have the right to be wrong? Because I simply fundamentally don't understand how anyone could hold that viewpoint.

I get some things right, I get some things wrong. Calling me a liar is saying I can't have that.
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Post Post #1820 (isolation #21) » Wed Aug 30, 2017 1:10 pm

Post by mastina »

In post 1773, Cerberus v666 wrote:Oh, and I also want your thoughts on whether or not the nexus should have caught your deflect. Because if you look closely, you'll see the deflect went through fine, it was my kill protection that redirected the shot.
To be honest, redirection-roles are something that as a player I don't tend to mess around with thinking about. It's only as a mod I'll think about them, and even then, I will typically only lay the interactions out when I absolutely have to, when it becomes pertinent to make a call.

They hurt my head just as much as Aristophanes's. :P

If I were modding the game I'd be able to answer but as a player I mostly am like. "Well if a mod chooses to have multiple redirection roles in a game, what the mod says, goes, and I'm fine with that."
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Post Post #1821 (isolation #22) » Wed Aug 30, 2017 1:12 pm

Post by mastina »

In post 1776, Cerberus v666 wrote:Nope. You don't get to take credit for things you didn't ever say in the game. Maybe if you said it to Sappho you can claim it.
Um.
That's exactly what I'm saying.

The proof is in the PT and you'll see it when it's released.

I explicitly talked about these things in there.
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Post Post #1825 (isolation #23) » Wed Aug 30, 2017 1:44 pm

Post by mastina »

In post 1783, Reasonably Rational wrote:1.) You couldn't know Sappho were masons on day one. You could only know the claim. Belief is not the same as knowledge.
It is when it's your fucking girlfriends who you have spent very intimate time with claiming it.

YOU don't understand what went down in there and even if you did get to see it (even unedited), you wouldn't get to see the rich history behind us. Is it unfair knowledge to possess? Perhaps. Maybe me having intimate knowledge of my girlfriends is an unfair advantage. Maybe because of how personally we know each other the moment we landed a five-person PT together we had a disproportionate advantage. You can argue that, sure, yeah. But that's how the dice were dealt.

Sappho played in a way we knew wasn't scum.
Sappho claimed a role we knew wasn't scum.
Sappho had the meta. The play. The interactions. The flavor. The roleclaim. To not be scum.

So damn straight I knew they were town. If you think it was cheating for girlfriends to be in the game with different slots, report it. (I mean we tend to avoid playing together in different slots for good reason. :P) But it went beyond belief because I fucking know the people I am dating. Intimate knowledge, and I mean intimate in every sense of the word.
3.) There was in fact an IC who could either confirm themselves to random people on even nights or simply just claim it and have it confirmed in thread. Not sure why that player wouldn't simply claim it but whatever. The point is that you're wrong in every thing you said in post #1753. You didn't
KNOW
Sappho were masons (and they weren't even masons at that point), and your speculation that there would be no IC was wrong.
Yes. I was wrong. I am human I make mistakes I make imperfect judgement calls off of imperfect knowledge. With hindsight bias and total knowledge I can say I was mistaken to believe that masons + other conftown + mini = not possible. But I can ONLY say that with hindsight bias. At the time it was a reasonable call to make.

You're also trying to have your cake and eat it too.
You can't both USE postgame knowledge (that there was conftown), while also DISCARDING postgame knowledge (that I was right to defend Sappho because they were in fact conftown).
4.) You
claim
frequently to be this benevolent teacher who wants to help people, and then you ignore questions from people seeking help and make snide comments to and with your clique in site chat about those people.
I answer any question I can (some people come to me and ask things that I simply don't have the time/energy to answer) and I match the tone I am given.

When I am given a tone like yours fuck yeah I'm gonna be snide. I'm a mirror. I reflect what I see. (Try reading what you've written.) When I see youth and energy I am youthful and energetic. When I see people who look like they genuinely seek improvement, I give what I feel is genuine advice to help them improve. When I don't think someone is actually sincere in seeking improvement then my comments are going to be lamenting this and have a more bitter undertone to them.

You've been nothing but hostile to me when I've explained my stances. You've called me a liar, you've called me dishonest, you've called into question my sincerity, you've called into question my honesty, and you've refused to take the stance of me meaning what I say and being honest about what I say. I have integrity, and you are attacking me when you say I do not. So no fucking duh I'm a little bit hostile in response?

I mean I can be wrong because yeah, I'm human. I can misread things. Some people who seem to sincerely want to improve weren't; often there are people who sincerely want to improve and yet it doesn't look like they do. But that's something I am all too happy to apologize for. My first interaction with nancy started out reasonably hostile, but then we got into a conversation and it ended up great and I said I was sorry because I very much had good use for saying sorry. (At least I'm pretty sure I said sorry? If not I know I intended to. :P)
For real. There couldn't actually be some reasonable critique or questioning of the goddess mastina, amirite?
I mean don't get me wrong.

I'd be the absolute first person to say, for instance, that
reckless
town lies, that pointless town lies, and the like, are anti-town. If people were handing a critique to a player for fakeclaiming like that, then I'd actually be backing them, supporting them, and agree with them that, yeah. You don't do shit for the lulz. You don't lie for the sake of lying. You also don't lie about certain things which should never be lied about. (I argue it's basically never okay to lie about reads, except by omission, for instance.)

But I don't do that. Every time I tell a lie, I have a plan behind the lie. I have mapped out every possible gain and every possible loss that I could think of. And only after carefully weighing them, determining the gains outweighed the losses. I had nothing to lose by claiming mason this game. I had much to gain by claiming mason. That's how you tell a lie and have it be done right. But even there it's called a gambit because there's a chance of failure. My gambits this game didn't fail, nor were they ever likely to. Because they were calculated out with losses minimized as much as possible and gains maximized as much as possible.
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Post Post #1826 (isolation #24) » Wed Aug 30, 2017 1:56 pm

Post by mastina »

In post 1790, Reasonably Rational wrote:Must be nice to be in the clique where Mastin doesn't attack you all the time ever.
Ginngie treats me with respect that's why.
And believe me.
When she doesn't treat me with respect, even though she's my friend, I give her shit for it.

I've got nothing against you.

Yet you are convinced I do.

So I'm just here going, like.

"...Okay?"

I read you as scum.
I was right to have read you as scum because you were in fact scum.
My reasons were imperfect.
I have acknowledged this on multiple occasions.

Yet you still have a problem with that.
So I'm just like.

"???"

Because what more is there to want?
I'm not going to apologize for being right.
I'm not going to apologize for being wrong.
I'm not going to apologize for wrong reasoning on a right read.
I will acknowledge faults in my process.
I will acknowledge faults in my reasoning.

But you keep on calling me the aggressor when you're the one who keeps on shitting on what I've done.

You're saying I wasn't right, by insisting the read came from bias rather than being me just scumreading your slot.
You're saying I've got no right to have had faulty reasoning.
You're saying I've got no right to make conclusions off of imperfect information, regardless of whether those conclusions were right or wrong.
I've acknowledged some were right and some were wrong. Yet you keep on attacking me even after I give you what you wanted on an honest ground.
I've shown you where I came from with my reasoning.

You are outright calling the reasoning a lie, or if not, if you are saying I really did think that, you are saying that off of imperfect information there's no way I should have thought what I did thought.
Yet I've shown how I thought what I did.
I've shown where I was coming from.
I've shown what I got wrong, and why.
And I've also shown that some of what I said wasn't wrong.

Yet you say I shouldn't have that?

You keep on assuming the worst of me and everyone surrounding me. There's no benefit of the doubt.
I have given plenty. I have given you my faults. I have given you how I have gone wrong in areas. I have acknowledged mistakes I have made. Yet even after I have done that, you keep on attacking.
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Post Post #1835 (isolation #25) » Wed Aug 30, 2017 2:11 pm

Post by mastina »

In post 1795, Reasonably Rational wrote:
In post 1784, mastina wrote:I don't have a GREAT grasp on how to make winning plans in that they are always, 100% of the time, with a crucial flaw that keeps them from being as good as I wanted.
It is deeply mean spirited (at the very least) for you to throw that at us.
?
How is acknowledging one of the things I do in games for better or for worse mean-spirited?
It is both acknowledging one of my strengths (I am good at coordinating things and making the most of what I've been given), while also one of my greatest weaknesses (I am working off of imperfect knowledge, I'm not omniscient, so what I coordinate, what I plan, what I make, will always have at least one flaw which prevents it from being the success I envisioned).

I mean, do you think it's an inaccurate statement?
Do you think that I don't "do" winning plans? Because it's pretty self-evident I attempt them all the time. They don't often
work
(at least not as intended), but it's pretty unambiguously fact that I do them all the same? I put into motion plans once I have been given something to work with. This is something I do, and have done in countless games. If you agree that I do them, then what's there to be offended by?

And assuming you agree I do them...
Do you think that when I do winning plans, they aren't not-great? As in. Do you think that my plans actually work as intended? Of course they don't. So I don't see the issue there either. I'm stating the truth. I make plans. I always make plans. Yet the plans are never as good as I was hoping they'd be. That's why I have others fact-check them. Hydra partners, but also others. I trust you regardless of your alignment to make reasonable (ha) plans because you are a player and even moreso a hydra who makes great plans.

You're better at making plans than I am. I've said that before. I meant it then and I still mean it now. So I don't see what the issue is. If I'm saying, "I'm good, but not great; you're better than me", what's the issue? It's calling you great, or even better than great. (What's better than great? I don't even have a word for it but if there's any player who mechanics/role-wise would be deserving of that it'd be you.) It's a complement to respecting your abilities. I respect your plans. I also respect your play. I'm not as good as you are. What in that is insulting to you? What in calling you better than me is an insult to you? I don't get it.
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Post Post #1836 (isolation #26) » Wed Aug 30, 2017 2:18 pm

Post by mastina »

In post 1806, Cerberus v666 wrote:@all the people: imagine a universe where TWC, Sappho, Varsoon, or Yume are killed N2. D3, Drixx and I claim that we fake claimed IC so we could get scum to shoot at us(with the added benefit of not having to fight with mastina). How does that play out? Please try to ignore your knowledge of how the rest of the game played out. ^^
It's in the PT but I was very adamant that if you didn't prove your IC you were dead men walking. As in, I made multiple stances to the effect of, "If Reasonably Rational lives to D3, accept ABSOLUTELY NO EXCUSES, they prove they're conftown or they die."

If you killed us, you'd have to ask nancy/Jae if our will would be posted/followed. (If memory serves, JaeReed echoed my sentiments there so the answer is most likely, yes.)
Sappho couldn't die thanks to us, but if Varsoon/Yume had died then D3 opens with us alive and being able to push it.

Now!
Whether we actually win that fight, dunno.
But we'd sure as fuck have fought you there and were actively planning on it.
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Post Post #1839 (isolation #27) » Wed Aug 30, 2017 2:28 pm

Post by mastina »

In post 1812, Radical Rat wrote:Yo mastina
Hook me up with all the places I went horribly wrong.
Case 'n' point by the way RE: Drixx on my teaching.

This is something I really really really want to do but I'm honestly not sure I have the time/effort/ability to explain.
I can't always teach. I
want
to, and I feel like Radical Rat wants to learn, but I can't always give people what they want because I don't always have the answers in spite of me wanting to.

I want to make a promise to do this SO badly, but I also know I break promises like that SO easily and I don't want to make a promise I can't keep.

I'll see if I can give you a quick rundown if nothing else once I'm caught up on postgame, though if I fail to do that, I can say: when our mason PT is made public, read it all the way through because I was casing for why you were scum. (Admittedly over half of my points relied on Alisae being scum but even with Alisae as town you stuck out as scum anyway to me.) Quickie of the quickie though: off of memory, I can say it was more or less how you were treating certain players at key areas. In key periods of the game, you were taking stances which scum were most likely to take, because you were scum. And actually I'd argue that wasn't necessarily a fault. I think the main fault was your gambit of claiming scum, in that when it didn't work out, it heavily condemned you. But you already know that so that's not exactly helpful feedback to give you. :P
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Post Post #1849 (isolation #28) » Wed Aug 30, 2017 2:45 pm

Post by mastina »

In post 1822, Reasonably Rational wrote:it seems awfully weird that you keep ignoring me. Post #1799 is the most recent time I quoted what you said. I'm totally open minded on that; just tell me what the intention was there.
You also know that I read things chronologically right? And that insisting for me to read a later post when I'm still on earlier ones is an exercise in futility right?

It's not ignoring you.

It's called I fucking don't even see your posts until the moment I start responding to them. You've seen me in an endless number of games; you know this is true during them and it doesn't magically disappear when suddenly we're in postgame.
I'm a fixer personality. If there's an issue, I'm a get it out in the open, deal with it, make up and spit shake and move on type. It is literally true that 99.99% of conflicts I am involved in progress as follows:
1.) Initially I go quiet and think about it. I try to reason out what's the problem, underlying factors, etc...
2.) I reach out to take care of it.
3.) A few months later I
might
remember there was a problem, but usually have a hard time giving much, if any, specific detail.
4.) A few months after that I won't even remember at all unless prompted, and even then I sometimes literally don't recall.
Did it ever occur to you that I'm the same exact way? That I thought the issue was out in the open, was dealt with, that we had moved on, that we had identified the problem, that we had reached out, and then that I had just not even really remembered the problem in the first place? Because I legit don't understand. You're shitting on me for having scumread you. But I can't understand where that originates from because it's just.

...I was right to have done so?
I don't get how you can be angry about me having made a right call.
I don't get how you can be angry that I'm not letting a scum player win when I am town. I'm playing to my wincon to lynch scum. That's the first thing on my mind. So how can you be angry when I'm doing what a town player is fundamentally
supposed to be doing
? Finding/identifying scum and then lynching them.

You keep saying I was holding a grudge.
But that is painting me as holding a bias against you.
It is, itself, ironically enough. A grudge. To say my read on you was a grudge rather than me just, you know. Scumhunting. Because that's all I was doing. I was scumhunting. I read you as scum. I was right to have read you as scum. Yet you keep on shitting on the read and saying it wasn't what it was, that it was some grudge???

I don't claim to have nailed you for perfect reasoning.
The opposite.
I do claim to have read you as scum.
And you were scum.

So what is the problem with that? What is the problem with having been right? That my reasons sucked? Okay so they sucked. What is the problem with my reasons having sucked, when I have admitted and acknowledged they're not as good as they should be? Instead of an answer, I'm getting an accusation that the read was a lie.
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Post Post #1865 (isolation #29) » Wed Aug 30, 2017 3:17 pm

Post by mastina »

In post 1823, Reasonably Rational wrote:The problem, as I see it, is that you seem to default to I and/or us are scum
every game
for awhile now.
Could it be, mayhaps, because you were actually fucking scum in them? You were scum this game. You were scum in Steven Universe 2. You were scum in StrangerCoug's game. Those are the last three games I can recall playing with you. And you were scum in all of them. So me having a scumread on you there was...actually fucking correct?

You can't forget your own alignment in the games where I called you scum. If you've actually fucking been scum in the games where I called you scum. Then I'm going to not feel bad for calling you scum? If a pattern emerges where I mistakenly call you scum when you're town. Then what happens is I first forfeit my right to say I can definitely read you (I've already done so for your half Drixx thanks to our very first encounter which is a lifelong stain that never will go away), and if it persists, then I go into the territory of players like RadiantCowbells, Alisae, and Firebringer, where I will flat-out admit, "I can't read these players but I am obligated to try, so I am sharing what read I have even though I know the read is probably shit".

That can also happen if vice-versa is true, where I call you as scum, town. I first forfeit my right to say I can definitely read you, then if it persists, I then place you in the category of players like RadiantCowbells, Alisae, and Firebringer where I self-admittedly can't read them, won't pretend I can, and yet am obligated to attempt a read in spite of knowing it won't be a good one.

...But.
...In order for that to happen.

...First we gotta play games together. :P
I'm always down for that!
The problem it creates is that you really don't explain your scum reads generally.
I can't. On a fundamental level, I've tried. Every angle, it's basically impossible for me to do so. My first language isn't English, which is the language I'd need to convey my scumreads in. My first language is concepts as I call it, in that I will get a read on the conceptual level. And then that's my read. But how do you explain in what's essentially a foreign language what you have so naturally in your own?
You DO; however, despite just now openly admitting being right essentially about as often as random chance this game, play as if those reads are ironclad truth.
And I always acknowledge it postgame for better or for worse. Heck I often don't even wait until postgame, I will do so midgame too. :P It is a byproduct of the above. If I can't explain my reads. What CAN I do? I can push them, and push them hard. Let's say you had an inability to explain your reads. What approach to the game would YOU take? What approach would a you, who gets reads but can't explain them, take towards those reads?

My answer is pushing them, and pushing them hard. Is it a perfect answer, no, but it's the best answer I've got because I can't think of any other option. "Just learn to explain your reads" isn't one. Telling me that is like telling me the secret to polevault is to learn how to be propelled forward/upward by the bend of the stick, in that sure it might be something technically accurate but it's useless for actually teaching.

I have a weakness in my process, a fundamental process which is probably never going away because I honestly think it's impossible FOR it to go away (some brains are just hardwired in ways which cannot have certain rewiring done). What I've got is what I've got, and it's the best I've developed. If I think of something better fuck yeah I'll do that thing instead of what I'm currently doing, but pushing hard my reads which I can't explain is the best I've got in the now.
You cannot be reasoned with and any evidence contrary gets hand waved away.
People say this and yet they don't bother to pay attention to what I actually do. I
can
be reasoned with and do so all the time. I'm just low-key about it. I show with my actions rather than my words. I back down from pushes all the time. I shift pushes all the time. That's me being reasonable, that's me reasoning with you because that's my answer. Not to engage in a lengthy explanation-battle because I don't do explanations. I am not going to tell you I am being reasonable. I am going to show you I am being reasonable. So relying on a verbal recognition as proof won't happen because it's nonverbally communicated.

Similarly so for evidence. When I don't acknowledge it it's because I don't have a way to acknowledge it. Because I don't do words well. It's part of my autism. (Which is pretty common knowledge.) I don't communicate well. So when people directly challenge me to communicate something well...I deflect. Because they are asking the impossible of me.
That makes it exceptionally difficult to work with you (when we're both town) and to properly read you (when we're town and you are not).
Well the former requires you to actually be town. :P
And, when we are, we do so well enough. As far as I can recall, we worked well together in the original Steven Universe game. You were right in some areas I wasn't (and actually managed to convince me as such), I was right in some areas you weren't (and you eventually came around to my point of view albeit for your own reasons unrelated to mine).

The latter, not my fault I'm a competent scumplayer? I mean. When in doubt, read the flowchart, 'cause I really am not unreadable. I'm predictable, even. You just have to have a basic understanding of my process and I've thought you would have, you having seen me as town countless times. (Though come to think of it I don't think you've ever seen me as scum? I sure have no memory of it.)
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Post Post #1871 (isolation #30) » Wed Aug 30, 2017 3:38 pm

Post by mastina »

In post 1834, Cerberus v666 wrote:I can't even recall how many games, this is the first time she's actually explicitly stated that half of what she says is bullshit, which is what I ALWAYS believed
It both is, and isn't. See also, can't explain myself worth shit. Just because I see something doesn't mean that something isn't there, more or less. Basically, I ~see~ things. These things aren't just reads, but also narratives. As in, I will see something. I will piece it together. And I will have a story from it. But when I try to vocalize this, when I try to verbalize that read, I can't find the right words for it. So I guess. So I fill in the blanks. It's like. Hmm. "Lost in translation". Let me put it to you this way.

Say there were a data file.
Say this data file then went through some sort of conversion.
But then say that in the conversion process, some of that information from the original data file was lost.
The program running the conversion process then has to "guess" what the missing data was. These guesses sometimes get it right, sometimes get it wrong, and sometimes they don't even realize there's missing data, in which case the converted file has a fatal error, because something which was supposed to be there was lost, with nothing added to replace it.

That's literally how my brain works, and what I mean when I say that I guess, that I fill in the blanks: sometimes I get it right, sometimes I get it wrong, sometimes I don't even realize that the concept has been corrupted in the transition to words. Thus. For lack of a better term. My mind, the program running the conversion process from the concept data file to English words. Bullshits.

From my understanding, something akin to this is not at all uncommon in the autistic world. I'm sure every autistic person has their own purple prose way of explaining it, but ultimately I think that if you use some creative interpretation of what they say you can see the pattern emerge of them mostly thinking in a similar way to what I describe. Their descriptions differ, because their "conversion algorithm" as it were is different (they are after all a different person with different experiences), but the process is probably much the same.
but she always spent all her time patting herself on the back, and not acknowledging screwing up in a pure way.
I always acknowledge shortcomings. Always. But at the same time, I reserve the right to acknowledge strengths--especially in postgame, which is a time meant for positivity. Fuck yeah I'd rather focus on the good than the bad in the end of a game, ESPECIALLY a game I lost.

So yes. I go "yes I fucked up, but!". Because that's how EVERYONE should go. Acknowledging what they did wrong (because NO PLAYER plays a picture-perfect game; EVERY PLAYER will have done SOMETHING wrong at SOME point in the game no matter how minuscule), but also paying tribute to what they didn't mess up on, with honest analysis about it and an emphasis on the positive and to look forward to the future.
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Post Post #1873 (isolation #31) » Wed Aug 30, 2017 3:51 pm

Post by mastina »

In post 1852, RadiantCowbells wrote:Can you link me games where you and Mastina were both town that show a pattern of her incorrectly scumreading you?
The only one I can even remotely think about would be the Steven Universe Prequel, but in that game I wasn't even in it until my hydra partner replaced out of it. I was struggling every step of the way and that was just as much his read as it was mine if not moreso. Like. 95% of the posts in our hydra were his. And I wasn't posting much outside of the game thread either so it's not like this game where I was active behind closed doors. I just wasn't in the game.

Then again you like to pin the vig attempt on you-the-IC on me from that very same game, so. You'd probably take Cerb's side on that. :P
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Post Post #1874 (isolation #32) » Wed Aug 30, 2017 3:59 pm

Post by mastina »

In post 1857, Cerberus v666 wrote:You should ask Drixx for that, I don't think she scumreads me all the time. I also think that there's only one game we've had together where we were the same alignment, and she was actually participating a lot, and I was an IC in that game, so...doesn't really count.
Would that be Final Fantasy 7, or Steven Universe?

I was town in both and you if I recall correctly were town in Final Fantasy 7, too. (Though you could make an argument there either way RE: me reading you. Literally half the game I read you as scum; literally half the game, I read you as town. So I was wrong on one half and right on the other, meaning you kinda have to choose which half is the important half in terms of which read counts because they were in existence for about equal amounts of time, about equal amounts of posts, and about equal amounts of content, so. Neither's really more dominant than the other.)

Also outside of Inorganic Chemistry (which I don't even remember if you were a player in or not? Vaguely kinda sorta think you could have been?), I honestly don't recall being scum in a game with you. Though that doesn't mean I wasn't, just that my memory sucks. :P
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Post Post #1943 (isolation #33) » Fri Sep 01, 2017 12:51 pm

Post by mastina »

In post 1881, Reasonably Rational wrote:Like: when I'm town and I absolutely need to be free of you trying to mislynch me ... I haven't got the foggiest idea how to do that.
Do something which makes me not want to mislynch you, basically. You've multiple times even as scum managed to get me to not be voting you--yeah the vote eventually returned when I was disappointed by the results (and with good reason by virtue of you actually being scum), but if you're town, then I have faith in you
not
disappointing me with the results of backing off from you.

Basically, I've given you space before. It's just that with you being scum, the space I gave you didn't do anything that I was impressed by. Yet if you were town, I have full faith, full strength of confidence in you, that the space I'd give you would allow you to impress me. In essence, it's my trust in you to be competent as town, and respecting your abilities to the point where when I am let down, I assume it's because you're scum. (And rightly so. :P)
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Post Post #1944 (isolation #34) » Fri Sep 01, 2017 12:54 pm

Post by mastina »

In post 1893, Alisae wrote:Balancing stuff when you go Varsoon crazy
is hard. Sometimes the easiest solution is the best solution.
My solution: don't give a damn about balance, let players know zero fucks were given RE: balance, and just make sure the game doesn't have anything "unfun" in it. (Which is loosely related to balance, but not quite the same thing, since you can have a balanced game which has something hella-unfun about it, and you can have a massively-unbalanced game where everyone has a blast. It's just the two tend to have significant overlap.)

Then again Varsoon was my inspiration as a mod for running Gistou so I'm basically guaranteed to be near his level of crazy, so. :P
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Post Post #1945 (isolation #35) » Fri Sep 01, 2017 12:57 pm

Post by mastina »

Also, RE: the scale--
In post 1891, Alisae wrote:There is a scale.
Varsoon Crazy | - - - - - - - | - - - - - - - | Normalcy/Mountainous
I have to disagree that Normalcy is inherently Mountainous. You can still be Varsoon Crazy in a Normal game, it just takes some great deal of creativity. :P (See also, the Mini Normals I run. Speaking of which I need to figure out which of the six or seven or so mini normals I've designed I next want to run because I want to mod another gaaaaaaaaaaaaame.)
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Post Post #1946 (isolation #36) » Fri Sep 01, 2017 1:03 pm

Post by mastina »

Btw, proof that I was doing a lot behind the scenes. :P
Not only do I have a two-page iso but I also have basically double the number of posts as anyone else. :P

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