Mini 1856 - This Mafia Game is for pieguyn (Game Over)

[pieguyn]

I mean, I don't deny that you did end up lynching Wisdom, regardless of whether your role actually explicitly said it or it was because you made a misguided assumption about your role and happened to be correct.

what I'm saying is very straightforward: you're full of yourself if you think you've caught anything this game.

[pieguyn]

yeah I'm back to being done with this interaction.

satisfied now, TD37?

[pieguyn]

... what the fuck did I just read?

mhsmith literally clarified almost as soon as Cakez said on D2 that he received a bomb that his "bomb" did nothing and that he was effectively supposed to be a fruit vendor. you are literally just making up reasons to push me, and you wonder why I say you should be the lynch tomorrow solely based on how shit-awful your play is if you're town here if TD37 ends up being town.

[pieguyn]

Nahdia, do you see why it's really stretching my suspension of disbelief that someone can be so completely unintelligible as town?

if I *really* end up in a situation where I need to pick between him and GE, and I pick him and I'm wrong, I literally would not even care. I'm aware that a lot of this is influenced by the fact that Wisdom was as unintelligible back on D1 as pisskop is now, and me being correct to stand up and say that *he* wouldn't be that completely unintelligible as town, and the fact that pisskop's play has just been completely abusive the entire game, but I literally do not even care.

[pieguyn]

ate.

bye pie you now die

yes, that actually is a straight up appeal to emotion, even if you lack the mental capability to discern anything beyond "lol ATE scum".

I want you dead because even if you're town, you're a piece of human trash and I would lose no sleep over making you lose this game for how you've played this even if it makes me lose too. and yes, *that's* what a personal attack looks like.

[pieguyn]

I mean, if you think I give even the slightest fuck about your opinion of me, you're delusional.

you're the one who has been pushing me the entire game because of some personal vendetta that I didn't just roll over and accept you whining about "derp derp neighborhood". you're the one who, this game day, saw TD37 replace into the game without having read any of it and started telling him outright lies just for the hell of it.

[pieguyn]

I was 100% OK with not commenting on it at all, beyond its relevance to the game state (which you've just sat there and tried to spin as "scum planning for LYLO"), until you came back in and literally just started spouting nonsense.

[pieguyn]

Find one game where Traitor is not informed of their buddies, in ANY queue.

fwiw traitor who isn't told their team has been ran before (albeit it's very rare and it's widely regarded as a dumb role. I've only seen it like twice).

what hasn't been ran, though, is a traitor who doesn't inherit the kill as the last scum, but doesn't get endgamed as the last scum either. if a traitor can keep playing as the last scum, they inherit the kill, no questions.

[pieguyn]

heh (that's L-1, for the record, but I'm 1000% sure the third vote will never come).

can we lynch Luna's slot now and be done with this game? I feel mostly sure it'll be a scum flip at this point.

[pieguyn]

I remain mostly sure that what happened with TD37 earlier was an actual scum slip; the only town explanation for what happened at the start of this game day remains 3438, which I don't think happens ever, and he refused to actually engage with it in any meaningful way after I brought it up (there was no "this is what happened" or "you're wrong about this", it was him going radio silent and then coming back and being like "where did I slip" after I continued to bring it up). I've said this before, so this isn't new, but the thing is, I've been trying to hold off and poke him a bit to see what he attempts to do on his own accord in case I'm wrong about it being a scum slip (since it really sucks when someone pushes something like that on you and you have no way to argue against it), and he *still* hasn't attempted to scum hunt or engage with anything in the game in any meaningful way.

all he's done has been focusing on the situation surrounding Nahdia and me and there's been no substantive comment either way on anyone's play, even after I specifically tried to go out of my way to engage him on his GE read. and now that he's made it apparent that the best he can do is a vote on me because "I'll remove it if Nahdia reveals", ... yeah.

I've said this already, too but on top of this, I don't think Luna was town here. I am more than happy to elaborate on this if anyone needs convincing, but for the most part my reads on Luna, when I have sat down and actually read her in detail, are trust-able. I also still just don't think this setup works with the RB being town on top of all of the other roles (strictly speaking this could just as well mean the last scum has a role that they didn't claim, but, /shrug).

Nahdia, GE, at this point I'd like if you could either join me or if you still need to be convinced talk to me about it.

[pieguyn]

I also think that pushing me is very distinctly the move TD37-scum makes in this scenario (in my waiting for him to actually do things I distinctly thought "if he's scum he's probably going to act like the things pisskop is saying somehow have merit and choose me to push"). for one, the alternative is accepting both me/Nahdia as town and then he's almost entirely fucked, so if he has the chance to go for Nahdia or me he should absolutely take it, but on top of that, I think any normal person would read the interaction between me and pisskop on the last page and realize how completely fucked it is and that forcing Nahdia into revealing themselves would completely fuck the game if pisskop is town, *especially* when they've agreed Nahdia clearing themselves would also clear me (which TD37 did). TD37-scum would see it and love to take the pretty much free win, though.

[pieguyn]

I'd think scum would try a more open route: I've stated I'm not voting pie, and Nahdia will never vote pie. It's literally not doable.
Even then, one scum is voting pie, so the scum is obviously extra dense.

it isn't doable, but given it's the most significant chance scum has of winning the game, I think they absolutely would just go for it and hope that either it works out or that they can convince someone to switch (even though it's very unlikely).

[pieguyn]

keep in mind, even something like Nahdia getting frustrated with the game state and just deciding to reveal in order to hopefully clear things up would be a favorable result for TD37-scum in this position, even if he doesn't *actually* get the lynch on me (since regardless of how it's done, Nahdia revealing and him dodging the lynch today would lead to an uncontested win for him) - I don't think this is something they would actually do, but I'm not even sure tbh so I definitely think it'd at least look like a plausible outcome from his POV.

[pieguyn]

do you disagree with the points I made in 3551?

[pieguyn]

I'm continuing to just wait for Nahdia and GE to either vote TD37 or tell me what reservations they're having about it.

TD37 continues to be mostly radio silent and engage with nothing in any meaningful way, even now that I've provided a read on him that is defensible.

[pieguyn]

like literally, he has said that a Nahdia reveal makes me town. then he sees that pisskop is almost definitely going to game throw by voting me anyway even if they reveal, which makes the Nahdia-reveal path impossible, yet he apparently doesn't care and continues to push for the Nahdia reveal anyway.

if that's town then fuck me I guess, but I think GE and pisskop are both town anyway even outside of all of this and I'd rather just be done with this game, so.

[pieguyn]

um, what? it still isn't optimal for Nahdia to reveal here, even with you trying to insist that it is.

[pieguyn]

even with pisskop in the game, it isn't going to happen. you can't lynch me.

you are trying to force a Nahdia reveal by pushing a wagon on me and claiming that it means that they're revealing somehow, even though your vote on me literally does not matter. you're doing this despite the fact that you have agreed that it would make me town *and* the fact that you have seen for yourself that pisskop will just vote me in endgame even if Nahdia reveals, so from your POV, all it'd do is completely fuck the the game, yet you still think a Nahdia reveal is optimal for ... ???

when I point this out, you *still* continue not to engage with it in any meaningful way, you just sit there and insist on pushing it. because you don't want to step back and admit that your reasoning for it doesn't hold water. because you need Nahdia to reveal to have any actual chance at winning the game.

the way you're pushing this is far more scum-motivated than town-motivated

[pieguyn]

still just waiting for Nahdia/GE to get back and see how obviously not-coming-from-town your push here is.

fact of the matter is that I'm obviously town here, and the only way I would expect anyone to reasonably believe that I'm scum is if they're actual trash like pisskop is. anyone else, including you, would know better.

[pieguyn]

you still refuse to engage with the actual point I'm making here: that from your POV, with the belief you have expressed that Nahdia revealing would make me town, having Nahdia reveal would be a game throw due to the way pisskop is acting, and yet you still hard push for it anyway (even after I've pointed this out several times).

why? because you don't give a shit. you want town to throw the game and not realize what they did until it's too late.

[pieguyn]

just go ahead and do it.

[pieguyn]

GE-san? doko ni iru no?

[pieguyn]

/covers her face and prays

[pieguyn]

my initial thought overnight was that it's GE and that I shouldn't overthink things.

[pieguyn]

basically, since my reads this game have apparently been shit since the moment Wisdom died, there's a few things I keep coming back to whenever I try to think about this game.

- Aero being killed over me N1, to me, indicates that the last scum is probably in the set of people I was town reading D1, which points away from pisskop and towards GE. Aero was obviously correct about Varsoon, but outside of that, he had Wisdom as a null-town read, and then pisskop as a null-town read and GE as a scum read.

- Aero was adamant that Varsoon/Wisdom interactions pointed to Cakez and pisskop being town. Cakez flipped town, and while I've said before the GE interactions don't look like scum, really, pisskop's interactions are a lot more similar to Cakez in that there was some serious distancing going on if he's the last scum, whereas GE's are just they don't look like scum, but the fact of the matter is that outside of the reasoning he used, objectively, he defended Varsoon/Wisdom D1 and didn't vote Wisdom D2 until it was apparent he wouldn't get out of it.

- Luna thought pisskop's play was completely different from his scum play.

- so did at least one other town player (dwlee, who not only also thought GE but I know has also seen pisskop-scum before), but I haven't looked at what everyone's reads were so I don't have any more specifics on this.

- as irritating as it is, I went to look at a few of pisskop's scum games and the closest pisskop has ever got to weaving this kind of emotion into his play as scum was in NY191. it was nowhere near the level of this game and it largely came after RC had drove a wagon on him, right when he was being lynched, and there was apparently a notable personal history between him and RC that legitimately induced it, so it's not the same as this game at all (which would basically just be him inventing a bunch of bullshit personal reasons just for the hell of it since as far as I know our history before this game was mostly positive). I'm not going to bother saying any more words about this than I already have in this game, but, that's the conclusion I get out of it.

there are some other things I'm tossing around in my head, and I've also been factoring Nahdia's read into account, but those are the main points, so, whatever. I'm open to discussion over it.

obviously, if we lynch someone today, Nahdia reveals, since at that point there is no longer any reason for them not to. if we elect to no lynch, obviously they shouldn't, but I don't really want to do that.

[pieguyn]

if that was in response to my post, that wasn't me telling you not to reread or anything like that, that's just what I arrived at after re-thinking my view of the game overnight (meaning I'm probably set on GE but would switch with a compelling enough argument).

if it wasn't, carry on, just wanted to make sure.

[pieguyn]

the thing giving me reservations about pisskop is that whenever it looked like what was going on with me and him this game would start to actually get dangerous for him, he kept stepping back and tiptoe-ing around it, i.e., his recent posts today where he seems to have dropped the push on me entirely. that, plus the complete ridiculousness of a lot of what he wrote about me in general.

I'm aware this isn't *really* a tell, since, yeah, obviously any town player who was aware of how anti-town our interactions were would want to stop it too. but I have had too many scum act like that towards me and I'm never fortunate enough to have the people who are sensible enough to back off actually be town.

I'm also aware that I've been consistently wrong in this game since like D3, and to be honest I'm in a similar kind of boat with GE where I worry I'm being manipulated (his posts around D7 end in particular are posts that I really wish I had stepped back and thought about a bit more before going ahead with TD37 lynch), so on the other hand, /shrug.

[pieguyn]

literally the only thing I have any certainty at all about right now is that as horrible as losing to scum-pisskop would be, I would rather not lose to scum-GE after Luna (not only whose reads I respect but whose slot I effectively mislynched), Aero (who seems to be a pretty solid player who I also mislynched), Nahdia (whose reads I respect again), and a bunch of other people were as certain as they were it was GE and not pisskop for most of the game.

if I go based on my reads, I can honestly make a case for either being scum, or either being town, and have it be reasonable enough, so I don't have any faith that my reads at this point are anywhere near reliable. what I don't see ever changing, though, is how everyone else felt. and if that's wrong, then whatever. these aren't people whose reads I usually just discount.

[pieguyn]

I'm pretty sure he's avoiding this game (don't know if this is even a point but he has been).

if we proceed as is and there's nothing more you want to discuss, I don't see myself voting outside of him, so.

[pieguyn]

optimally, what we should do re: you revealing is all of us commit to one lynch or the other, without voting, then you reveal and after you reveal we actually push the lynch through (preventing any kind of scenario where you reveal and then it goes to no lynch).

so we wait for pisskop to check in, although based on what he's said he should be OK with it.

[pieguyn]

sooooooooo.... now I reveal?

yeah, go ahead.

[pieguyn]

claiming town. let me just sleep on it a bit longer.

[pieguyn]

before I do anything, I want an actual full claim from pisskop. i.e. his role name, and whether it actually explicitly says in his role PM he's in all the neighborhoods.

[pieguyn]

actually answer the question. I'm not just asking for no reason, I'm asking because at this point (MYLO) it's... you know... kinda important.

if you're really that hurt to the point where you can't so much as _claim properly in MYLO_, feel free to replace out.

[pieguyn]

Nahdia, pls send help.

[pieguyn]

like it is literally the last fucking day of the game. what use is there in refusing to claim?

if I'm to hammer GE, I need to be as sure as possible about it, and so I need to at least know what your full claim is for completeness sake.

[pieguyn]

I literally am not even asking you this intending to imply "you interpreted your role wrong", I'm asking entirely because it's the last day and everyone's claims need to be on the table, just in case.

I really should not need to be explaining this, it's basic theory.

[pieguyn]

on second thought, honestly, whatever.

you're just going to continue being completely insufferable, and I just don't want to think about this game any more (and if you're town you're obviously just a vanilla neighbor and will continue to refuse to claim regardless of your alignment, so, whatever). I'm frankly too exhausted to waste any breath trying to repeat the same thing to what is essentially a stone wall, but as a final point, if you're scum and your behavior this entire game was a conscious choice? then that's even more unbelievably low then anything I've ever seen before in my entire time on this site, and I frankly would not shed a single tear over it; the fact that it's apparent to everyone in this game who is actually human how shit-awful your behavior here has been is retribution enough for me.

if you somehow think it's acceptable to just casually throw the insults you have thrown this game at me, to no end beyond winning a fucking game on the internet with people you don't even know, then you're a pathetic, lonely excuse for a human being who gets off on projecting their own experiences onto other people (and has proven this by doing so directly to me during the game). don't even try to apologize, because you've already demonstrated in every way imaginable that you're so far gone that you will never be capable of understanding what I'm trying to tell you. just quietly fuck off, go spend the rest of your existence somewhere around people who are capable of not acknowledging your behavior for what it is, and keep trying to create some resemblance of fulfillment in your deranged mind by insulting and belittling other people to make yourself feel superior to them.

if you're town, ignore the above paragraph, but if you are scum here, then wow

vote: GE

[pieguyn]

I guess this must mean it's pisskop, he can't kill and his hard push on me being a traitor who can't kill the entire game was because he couldn't kill and knew he had to lynch me at some point in order to win the game.

vote: pisskop

@Nahdia, if this is actually a contest, please just promise you'll talk to me first before doing anything. at the least, let me know where you're at so that I can stop being anxious over this game.

[pieguyn]

for the record, I'm nowhere near the kind of scum player who would be this openly hostile towards someone, on a consistent basis, as a deliberate scum strategy because I think it'd give me some kind of advantage (I'm literally on record in MD as saying I think this is just a toxic mindset and that I have never felt that avoiding such extremes has ever hurt my chances of winning as scum, if my alignment is in question let me know and I'll link the post). this is basically a trust tell-level town tell for me, and while maaaybe if I was in the perfect mindset I'd be capable of breaking it, it will probably remain a huge town tell solely becuase I just don't think I'd ever, ever have it in me to do things like that.

pisskop, on the other hand, has openly demonstrated in previous games of his behavior that is not only completely asshole-ish, but on one occasion outright sexist (yes, in a different game before this one), so I really should not be that surprised that he acted the way he did in this game especially if he felt he had no other chance at winning it.

from my POV, I've basically had to sit here and play out a surefire win while dealing with his constant barrage of personal attacks for one and a half months because of his insane delusion that doing all the shit he did this game was somehow a good fucking idea.

[pieguyn]

what do you intend to do?

[pieguyn]

I'm still not scum.

will you at least promise that you'll talk to me first if you're questioning my alignment here?

[pieguyn]

I mean, he probably just brought it up as a talking point (i.e. along the lines of "I suspect the function of my role is that it's in every neighborhood") as a way of subtly distancing without really doing anything, and had no intention of hard pushing it. there wasn't any way he'd know Varsoon had flipped, and if he had brought it up in that way there wasn't any really way he'd be able to argue his way out of it.

and if you want to use that argument, I straight caught Varsoon on D1 and caught Wisdom at the end of D1; he spent D1 trying to derail Varsoon because of his hood with him.

p-edit: I am too. my thoughts were really that pisskop's play made no sense from a scum POV, but that was under the assumption scum could kill (since FMPOV we were just in autowin if they couldn't). given he couldn't kill me, he'd have to lynch me, and he likely felt like he'd need to put an absurd amount of effort into attempting to build a case on me in order to do it (what he did).

[pieguyn]

it would also mean both neighborhoods were two scum 1 town. albeit 1 scum was traitor.

I mean, this is easily plausible given what GIF would do; I wouldn't get too hung up on it.

I wouldn't get hung up on it even without the knowledge pisskop is scum.

[pieguyn]

there is also just 100% absolutely no way I would ever, ever, ever be capable of long conning anyone to the extent I would have done with you had I been scum here and played like this. I just am not that kind of scum player at all. in pretty much all of my scum games, I'm a very pragmatic, logical scum player who wins by looking objectively town, not a manipulative scum player.

[pieguyn]

literally, just, if you're starting to question things, talk to me about why you question whether pisskop is scum and whether I'm town.

from my POV I still feel this is really clear, but either way if you're starting to question things I'm sure that I'll be able to help clear things up for you.

[pieguyn]

for the record,

to address the OP: do scum have any ethical responsibility to do anything? no. however, in my eyes, it isn't really an issue of whether it's allowed or not, it's more an issue of game spirit and faith in other people. do I enjoy playing with people who do questionably-ethical-sort-of things as scum? no. would I be likely to play with people who play that way regularly after seeing them play that way as scum in a game? no. do I play that way as scum? no, because I find it a cheap way of winning and not interesting, unless I'm explicitly trying to make the point that that kind of play should not be allowed to go unchecked in games. do I find that this makes me less likely to win as scum? not particularly, so I don't see what the issue is.

this doesn't just apply to people being dicks for no apparent reason, either. the most obvious example of scum behavior that doesn't risk breaking any rules that I tend to avoid anyway just due to how stupid it is is the thread-flooding scum strategy, which thankfully is recognized enough to where a lot of people identifiably feel the same way I do about it.

^^^ from MD.

[pieguyn]

please just, whatever you do, promise me that you'll work with me re: what I said in 3640.

I'll work with you however you want, whether you want me to explain certain things or try to make a pisskop-scum case or anything (which ftr there's a lot of things that I could point out, I just didn't think too much of it because I didn't think his push on me came from scum).

[pieguyn]

I imagine that when pisskop arrives he's going to do some act about "I was so fucking right the entire game" and "pie can go fuck off for being a mary sue", flood the thread with posts and say nothing of any sort of substance. (never mind that a scum member who can't kill from an uninformed POV is really, really unexpected... o wait, it makes more sense that he'd think of it as a likely idea if he knew GIF had put one into the game)

p-edit: I still have no idea how anyone would leave the site, ignoring a PM, come back, still ignore the PM and then only check it after posting in the thread, but regardless, I did try to watch him and see what he did in case I was wrong about it being a slip since I know how these things tend to work and I know how much it sucks when someone pushes a "slip" on you that isn't a slip that you have no way to defend against. he then proceeded to do absolutely fucking nothing, and pushed his inane you/me scum team theory without attempting to actually read or analyze anything in the game, so I basically just said "fuck it, he's either setting up for an endgame where pisskop votes me or he's just going to play to a scum win con regardless".

I also just really felt I had caught Luna and was kind of tilted that the accident leading to her replacement happened and prevented me from actually trying to read her and see how she'd respond to my pressure (I feel there's at least some chance I would have figured out if she was town if she was still in the slot).

[pieguyn]

like you can see where I directly tried to poke him hoping he'd expand on his GE read some more, and all it was met with was radio silence from him.

that was me hoping to probe him for content that I could read irrespective of the "slip".

[pieguyn]

accident leading to her replacement?

actually I don't know if I should expand any further on that. let me check with GIF.

[pieguyn]

also I know you said you're not really paying attention to self meta, but I have almost eidetic memory of what happens in my games. when I'm scum I like to think I'm at least half-aware of what to expect from the people who I know who I'm playing with and I try to play around their tendencies to get them to see my play and assess it and come to a town read on me (as I said looking objectively town), and the thing is, I distinctly remember that in paint mafia, you went after Zulfy for pushing a "slip" on you that wasn't really a slip. it's something I'm aware of and I just wouldn't try something like that with you in the game who I know would be suspicious of it.

it just... literally is not what I would do, at all. even if I wanted to hard push Luna's slot as scum for some reason or another.

[pieguyn]

like I explicitly remember you making some post somewhere (don't think it was the same game, I think it was elsewhere) that you said that going after people for pushing "fake slips" is even a trademark of yours.

I just wouldn't forget something like that. I wouldn't.

p-edit: I know. -.-

[pieguyn]

accident leading to her replacement?

actually I don't know if I should expand any further on that. let me check with GIF.

GIF responded, I can't talk about it in any more depth at all. I'm sorry.

[pieguyn]

(never mind that a scum member who can't kill from an uninformed POV is really, really unexpected... o wait, it makes more sense that he'd think of it as a likely idea if he knew GIF had put one into the game)

I want to go into more depth on this because I think this is a really, really huge tell and I think I can say this completely objectively. I know it's kind of a wall but seriously, please please read it.

to be honest, I still am not quite sure what the hell is going on with this setup: putting a scum member in who can't kill just is not the kind of thing I would expect GIF would do and it really isn't the kind of thing I would expect ever. it's a stupid idea for a role and unless there are serious shenanigans which I just am not thinking of going on it's practically impossible to balance around it, too (also, for clarity, I don't think pisskop is a traitor that can't kill, I think he probably is a full scum member who just can't commit the kill - I just do not see how the fuck the setup works otherwise).

so, if you look at my behavior the past... 6... game days, you can see that I'm attempting to scum hunt normally, and that I largely haven't thought about it because with the last scum not being able to kill, it really should have been an auto-win, so it shouldn't have mattered (the only way is if you flip out and vote me). you can also see that obviously, because of this, all of my reads were fucking wrong. I spent the whole game attempting to hunt a scum the entire time who couldn't kill and you can see that I wasn't factoring it into my reads at all: that someone might just be going crazy and doing things no scum with the ability to kill would ever do because they have no other shot at winning the game.

if you look at pisskop's, though? he pretty much jumped to the conclusion of "last scum is pie and she's doing all of these things because she can't kill" immediately (like sometime D4 or so iirc. literally as soon as people started to think that there was something going on with the scum kill).

I maintain that this thought progression is impossible. making the last scum unable to kill, from an unformed POV, is something that would make absolutely no sense. it's something that you wouldn't even think about because it shouldn't be relevant, you're in such a good position if it's the case so there's no point in thinking too hard about it and you should plan around the probably worst case scenario instead of the really unlikely good scenario. you didn't start to think it was likely iirc all the way until D7, I really didn't even believe it until this day happened and it was confirmed. pisskop, though? jumped to that conclusion immediately and staked his entire game from D4+ around it.

in the first place, objectively it just is not a likely role - the only real reason I can think of it makes any sense for him to unconditionally assume that was what was going on so quickly was that if he knew for sure that it was something GIF would be willing to do, hence, had the role himself (meanwhile I'm still over here not knowing what the hell GIF was thinking when he put a scum role who couldn't kill into the game). but if you keep going and think about what he would do once he had reached that position? he knows that he has to lynch me in order to win, he would have known ever since N2 and since I was practically a universal town read the entire game (apart from TD37...) the only way he can do this is to spend literally the entire game case-building on me and trying to solidify his position for when it actually is do-or-die re: the lynch on me. and if you'll notice, that's exactly what he did: his whole push on me where he launches into thinking that I must be scum and incapable of killing, and his reasons for it, and him ignoring that the things I was doing made absolutely no sense if I was hoping to solo the game as a scum who couldn't kill were so ridiculous and I'd be interested in seeing what you think his town thought process there actually was. in fact if you go back, he's been trying to line up a push on me and try to discredit the idea that my role cleared me all the way *since* N2/D3.

do you follow?

[pieguyn]

the thing giving me reservations about pisskop is that whenever it looked like what was going on with me and him this game would start to actually get dangerous for him, he kept stepping back and tiptoe-ing around it, i.e., his recent posts today where he seems to have dropped the push on me entirely. that, plus the complete ridiculousness of a lot of what he wrote about me in general.

I'm aware this isn't *really* a tell, since, yeah, obviously any town player who was aware of how anti-town our interactions were would want to stop it too. but I have had too many scum act like that towards me and I'm never fortunate enough to have the people who are sensible enough to back off actually be town.

I'm also aware that I've been consistently wrong in this game since like D3, and to be honest I'm in a similar kind of boat with GE where I worry I'm being manipulated (his posts around D7 end in particular are posts that I really wish I had stepped back and thought about a bit more before going ahead with TD37 lynch), so on the other hand, /shrug.

I think this is also a relevant tell, especially when you consider that he actually was ran up to L-1 largely for how stupid he was being re: me sometime back I think on D5 or D6 when Cakez was alive.

[pieguyn]

but yeah i mean i would consider it just as likely that you forgot i look for that sort of thing, then remembered after you did it, and are now using it as a point in your defense, failing not doing it in the first place.

not saying that's what happened just... it's not much good from my perspective.

re: this, if it helps, recall that you pushing Zulfy over the slip that wasn't really a slip was a large part of why I was so completely convinced you were scum the entire game.

at the very least, if you don't believe that I'm very good at recalling the kinds of things people I play with are likely to do, I definitely would not forget such a drastic misread and I wouldn't forget how such a drastic misread was able to occur, especially on someone like you who I like.

[pieguyn]

like you see how hard I kick myself over games all the time. literally the thing I hate most in mafia games is feeling that I've just let down and pissed off people who I actually like (again this is also something I have expressed completely outside of this game).

[pieguyn]

see: post 114 of paint mafia 2 dead PT

[pieguyn]

if you choose to reread D1, pay close attention to pisskop's interactions - toss out the reservations you're having about N1 and think about his play D1.

he spent the entirety of D1 soft defending Varsoon, and he never gave any reason for it anywhere: he said a lot of things like "slight town lean", "our hood supports him", "can we not lynch him today" (attempting to use his hood status with him to not lynch him), "Cakez/Varsoon is T/T", but no actual, substantive reason for town reading him based on his *play*.

he had pretty much no substantive interaction at all with Wisdom.

I honestly guess I suppose that the thing N1 was him attempting to make some kind of passing comment along the lines of "I think I'm in every neighborhood so there is some chance Varsoon and Wisdom's hood is a fake claim", then Varsoon was unceremoniously killed by Aero and he really was just stuck with no real option to argue his way out of it with me having firmly identified Wisdom as scum and very seriously intending to make him dead; at that point better to just abandon ship and bus him. I do not think that he would have made anywhere near as big a deal over it if the end of D1/N1 didn't happen the way that it did.

/shrug things like this are generally why I think neighborhoods are cancer, it would have been a lot easier if either of beeboy or dwlee had actually summarized the hood at some point or another.

[pieguyn]

like he claims that he was some sort of savior who "caught all the scum this game" but really no, he wasn't, after I figured out Wisdom was scum end-of-D1 the lynch on Wisdom D2 was happening at my hands regardless of anything he did and you can see this if you look at the timing.

[pieguyn]

I guess the key point here in all of this is that if you think about it from the POV of his push on me being something necessary that he literally had to do or he wouldn't be able to endgame, the major evidence for him being town (or at least what to my mind was the major evidence) isn't anything anymore, and his actual play is pretty transparently scummy (and if you'll notice I thought he was scum at first and then mostly just town read him because the push on me was so batshit insane that I didn't see it coming from scum, not realizing it was necessary for him).

I am sure that I can continue and find more things that make sense coming from him as scum, but I highly recommend you just look at it yourself and try to notice what I'm pointing out here.

if you're still held up about N1, just do the exercise with me: read what I wrote in 3667 and try to think of a counter-point to it and see if you can't come up with any. it's sort of not the most expected play, but I think when you think about it that way it's very plausible.

[pieguyn]

if you look at pisskop's posts D3, the most apparent thing is that he continually tried to misrep my stance on dwlee as "omg pie is claiming all the scum are in hoods". my stance on dwlee the entire time was very clear (that I didn't like their play and that I found the hood speculation entirely irrelevant), he basically spent all of it trying to obfuscate claiming I was somehow being unreasonable for not considering the hoods and that my push on dwlee was a liability/weak-link push (when it wasn't at all and clearly so).

I thought at first he was just being incredibly stupid and making up reasons to push me because he was pissed off at me, but no, he was just making up reasons to push me. it isn't genuine at all (look at i.e. 2531 ~ 2576) and you remember how stupid it was and how you kept trying to call him out for it and he acted like a complete stone wall? this is why.

[pieguyn]

continuing through to D4, it is fairly noticeable to see that apart from the dwlee wagon, pisskop has continually voted on most of the lynches from there on out (Aero, Cakez, he passed up TD37 in favor of pushing me which he achieved L-1 on, then GE). all of which were lynches I was pushing, despite simultaneously scum reading me and attempting to act insistent that I was scum somehow manipulating the game in some way or the other.

that's him taking the easy route for clearing out the entire player list while still attempting to keep me set up as a later lynch, not him actually attempting to stand up to the direction I was taking the game and challenging me - because whenever he tested the waters for a push on me it was obvious it'd just lead to him being lynched. (see: the point I had made before that it looked like he was attempting to back off whenever it looked like his push on me would get dangerous for him)

[pieguyn]

back on D6 and I'm sorry Cakez. :<

am I obvious town yet? I feel like I really, really should be.

/attempts to send subliminal message saying "Cakez caught pisskop the last game, he did it here too" over to you

[pieguyn]

if I'm scum, it is significantly better for me to lynch pisskop yesterday and GE today as opposed to doing it the other way around. or even all the way back on D5 when he almost did get lynched (correction, it wasn't L-1 but he was the leading wagon and his wagon was very very serious). I would have had pretty much every excuse to (posts starting from 3122), and at that point me, GE, and Cakez would have pretty much guaranteed votes.

there isn't really a reason for scum-me to risk this 3p scenario at all.

[pieguyn]

I see a lot of spam from pie. I can only expect she wants to close out strong. pie was always strong-spirited. Its why effort=/=alignment.

this is the exact kind of shit people like Varsoon and Wisdom attempted to use to discredit me D1.

first it was "you're not concise enough, look how people like you can explain a read on dwlee in one sentence", then it was "your walls are manipulative". now it's "pie is spamming".

besides that, um, pretty much everything in that post is demonstrably false and I've actually already covered most of why in my posts earlier. let me know if you want me to respond in more depth.

[pieguyn]

And now, at the endgame she fought almost tooth and nail to avoid, is here, and she can spam to a V?

this is actually hilarious; I had two very distinct chances to actually make pisskop outright dead (both D5 when me and GE and Cakez had built up enough pressure on him for it to actually turn serious, and yesterday when me/GE could have just bloc'ed up and gained majority on him), avoiding this 3p entirely, and I didn't take either of them, I kept getting weirded out and not lynching him because I just didn't realize why he'd be pushing me the entire game the way that he was.

/shrug

[pieguyn]

The ates, her strong suit, have been everywhere

for the record, emotion is actually pretty much the one thing I cannot effectively fake as scum.

you saw badass women where I mostly just yelled a lot but didn't get that same sort of belief in my reads that I usually have, and you saw dance game v2.0 where mhsmith outright meta'ed me and realized that I could not have been faking the emotion I had in that game as scum.

[pieguyn]

- I just rolled scum in like 2 of my last 3 games. -> odds are heavily against it mechanically.

this is straight up just false. I'm pretty sure you know this, but, just saying.

[pieguyn]

if you think I'm attempting to engage you here, you're delusional; that post was to Nahdia.

if you actually believe that, then you have no idea how conditional probability works.

[pieguyn]

if anything all the stuff about meta tells me is that this, for whatever reason, happened to be the game where pisskop decided he'd deliberately be a piece of human trash in order to further a scum win con. now that I'm aware of this, I am sure that this is something he was always capable of, he just chose not to in previous games.

I imagine he's probably going to make 1000 posts claiming "omg she's personally attacking me, such scum!!11", but it's the truth of the matter and yes anyone who just casually throws gendered insults at me as if it's nothing does deserve to be called that.

[pieguyn]

probably because he didn't think he'd have any chance at winning the game otherwise.

[pieguyn]

I'm probably going to be gone for a bit, but @Nahdia, one thing I want to say first is that pisskop's posts to you are the sort of typical endgame posts scum make - you're a tonal reader so a part of me just kind of hopes that you intuit the same thing, but they're typical posts that are written more to look good than anything else, while the content in the actual post is all really shallow and/or just wrong.

if you want me to address anything he wrote or elaborate more on anything I said earlier, *do not hesitate to ask*. I highly, highly recommend that you go through D1, go through pisskop's ISO again and read what I'm writing try to reconcile what I'm writing about him with what his posts actually contain, though, since I think this really should be straightforward and I think I can say that 100% objectively and more than anything I'd just be disgusted with myself if I lost in a D1/D2 scum death situation to a scum who couldn't even make kills who coasted to the end and then fluked out a victory at the very end of the game in what should have been an auto-win scenario because you got weirded out on me after town reading me the whole game. that would probably be actually the worst loss out of all of my games.

I'm aware of how far into ATE territory that falls, I guess I just hope you understand and I feel like given what you've seen of me, you might. this is driving me up the wall way more than I thought it would and I just want the win I should have had a month and a half ago.

[pieguyn]

I really just. Idk. I know pieguyn. I think I know 'em anyway. I really don't see the narrative of a heavy emotional manipulation player being her archetype or whatever.

I'm not, and I'm glad that you're getting it.

also I'm pretty sure you get this, but ya 3714 is a load of shit too.

[pieguyn]

... you're the one making up numbers here. the probability of you being scum here given you being scum in the other two games is the exact same as the probability of you being scum here full stop - this is literally how probability works.

I don't really know why I'm engaging this, but again, if you actually believe this you have no idea how conditional probability works.

[pieguyn]

I'm literally a math major, what you're attempting to say is complete nonsense.

[pieguyn]

anyway @Nahdia: if you're thinking about the setup - what do you make of the point I made in 3662? I frankly still have no idea how the fuck this setup is intended to balance, and I'm kind of curious to see exactly what was going on here in postgame tbh, but if you don't think about it from a balance POV and think of it from a POV of "one of these players is a scum player who can't kill", I think it should be really obvious that the way pisskop has been playing the majority of the game has strong scum motivation.

if you're thinking about what he said about "he caught Wis/Varsoon", first off, attempting to claim that he caught Varsoon is an outright lie - he never, ever pushed Varsoon at any point in the game and largely had nothing to do with the push on him or him being vig'd, he spent all of D1 soft defending him based on his neighborhood, but again, re: Wisdom, read what I wrote in 3667, think about it and try to think of a counter-argument to what I wrote there. I do not think that his push on Wisdom was ever really that strong - I largely think he just did it as a subtle mean of distancing that he didn't intend to follow through on or make anywhere near as big a deal as he ended up making over it when he did it, and then got screwed over and just had to go with it due to Varsoon dying overnight and me making Wisdom dead. again, I strongly recommend you look at D1 and actually look at the timing of the posts D2, I was making Wisdom dead regardless of anything he did or didn't do so it makes sense that at that point with no other real option he'd abandon ship and bus there.

/shrug the advantage of being scum in neighborhoods is that it's usually very easy to just outright manipulate them without them suspecting anything, and I think you know this, too.

[pieguyn]

you literally are just straight up missing the point and I don't see any reason to engage further over it, I'm pretty sure Nahdia already understands why what you're attempting to say here is wrong.

p-edit: yeah, lol.

[pieguyn]

Nahdia, what reservations are you having?

have you read/thought about most of the points I've made recently?

[pieguyn]

frankly, I think you should just stop focusing on all of this "hood" nonsense entirely. I said it before but it is literally the easiest and most textbook thing ever to manipulate neighborhoods you're in as scum, it's easy to use them to look "town", it's easy to use them as a way of directly manipulating people, it's easy to play around them in a way that makes it look like you're "scum hunting". of course, no surprise, pisskop attempts to claim that how he behaved in/around the hoods and how his hoods town read him is some gold standard that makes him town.

[pieguyn]

if you wanna sort through this line of questioning, that's fine, I just wanna make sure you're seeing/considering what I'm posting.

do you need anything more from me right now, or still thinking it's pisskop? (again if you wanna sort through this first that's fine, I just wanna be sureeeee)

[pieguyn]

also, re the hoods, keep in mind that for scum-him, snowing the fuck out the people he had neighborhoods with and playing into a way where they'd remain strongly town reading him would be a huge, huge benefit for scum who can't kill and would need to dodge a shitton of lynches in order to win.

he keeps trying to act like "omg my hood was conftown" and that it's somehow some huge point that I pushed them, but no, it really isn't. if anything, if you read D3, the whole thing about the hoods was something *he* kept bringing up in order to obfuscate and throw shade on me re: my dwlee push, and I'm pretty sure you're already aware of how stupid it was - he was the one one attempting to act like all of his hoods were some grand evidence that made him town.

[pieguyn]

for the record, I have a tinfoil theory that pisskop's role is what has been causing these thread locks (both this one and that one from all the way back on D1), but 1. don't know how helpful that will be for your POV and 2. it is not such a strong point to where I would focus on it over the other things that I have already said.

[pieguyn]

also sorry ive been kind of ignoring you pie. trying to get to the bottom of something in particular.

yeah I understand. just whatever you do promise me that if you're having reservations about stuff and that if you read what I'm writing and don't understand it that you'll talk through it with me since even though I feel OK about my ability to make cases and stuff, I feel the most sure that I can get through to you if you just interact with me directly.

[pieguyn]

and do promise you'll read through my posts and do the exercise of reading D1 and reading pisskop's posts and what they actually contain and trying to notice what I'm saying about his play since I really just feel like at this point it should be obvious if you look at how things actually played out and not this narrative that he's trying to spin that he "caught all the scum this game".

[pieguyn]

I think his posts are *parsable*, I think he probably just has no compelling explanation for why he ignored Varsoon to the extent that he did and that's why his answer makes no sense.

[pieguyn]

as far as I know his entire answer seems to just be "I ignored it cuz might as well just see how it shakes out", and then when you keep poking over it he just gets pissed off and steps around it because he doesn't want to talk about it in more depth and make it obvious that he has no *real* explanation for it.

[pieguyn]

this is also the same person who kept trying to defend Varsoon D1, for no reason outside of "I don't want to lynch someone I had a hood with", but did not express any actual reason for town reading his *play* the entire D1. so it really shouldn't be surprising that he can't give an adequate answer to this.

[pieguyn]

like if you so much as read that last post he's still dodging the question: his entire "read" is that "oh I have a hood with him so I'll see how it shakes out", no actual attempt at all on reading Varsoon's play there or the entire rest of D1 which is what I think you're looking for.

[pieguyn]

I'm town, thank god.

[pieguyn]

thank you so much for having faith in me, I'm actually really legitimately happy right now.

and no I'm not trolling, I'm not *that* sadistic.

[pieguyn]

I have shit I could say to pisskop but I don't even know if it's worth it. but yeah, Nahdia, welcome to the kind of shit I had to deal with all game.

either way, gg.

[pieguyn]

btw If I was still alive Monday I would have cased pisskop with a lot of what pie had said about the neighborhoods. However, it probably would have been a bit more pressure as it was 4p instead of 3p

I'm sorry I mislynched you in the way that I did, I really wanted more than anything to wait and see what you'd do when you got back. it's just... /shrug... didn't expect traitor who couldn't commit the kill to actually be the gamestate we were in and pisskop's behavior strongly suggested that he wouldn't win on a you lynch, so, yeah.

I'm sorry to everyone else I mislynched along the way too, I'm honestly pretty embarrassed that I took this long even though we technically were in from what my POV was autowin.

at least my consolation this game was that my reads D1 before I fell into this whole rabbit hole of nonsense were 3/3.

if I could do one thing differently this game, I should have tried to make the Varsoon case more accessible.

[pieguyn]

I don't really feel the same way about this game most other people seem to feel.

the game was pretty much in autowin since D2 once Wisdom was lynched. the entire 1 1/2 after that was pretty much just a formality. even though it took lynching through the rest of the player list to finally hit the last scum, it literally did not matter because we had Nahdia confirmed town and me who was practically confirmed town vs. one scum who couldn't kill anyone, so scum was never going to win. the only way scum would ever win was if I was lynched - this wasn't ever going to happen, even though it looked like it'd be close - or if they could pull off a lynch on Nahdia under the "we should let pie confirm herself" logic, which really wasn't possible unless everyone was stupid (which they weren't). you can say that I was almost mislynched, but I was never being lynched, even though there were people questioning my alignment I really was pretty much confirmed town by my claim and there was always a majority of people in the game who accepted it without questioning it, and I feel like most of the people in the dead PT who thought Nahdia might lynch me weren't really picking up on the dynamic we had going for the entire duration of the game. or were just cynical, which I wouldn't blame them for since I suffered a bit of anxiety over it too.

moreover, since scum couldn't kill, it completely fucked over most of my reads (and everyone else's reads) for the entire 1 1/2 months we were playing the game out since that drastically affected how whoever the scum was would need to be playing, so honestly, I don't understand people who claim "pisskop put up a good fight" or "the game made it all the way to LYLO" or "people finally put in the effort and lynched pisskop" - that was just the last part of the same autowin scenario we had been playing out ever since the point where Wisdom was lynched D2 and the result was, and always would have been, the exact same as it would have been had he just resigned after D2.

I also pretty much agree with the criticism about pisskop's role, even though I don't really feel anything for him for having to play it. I still honestly have no idea how this was intended to be balanced, and even though it did succeed in being something that I'd believe with absolute certainty wasn't in the setup which was the intent of the role, really, when you think about how bad of a role it actually is, just eh. I don't really know if I like that the way GIF broke his mod meta was by just using a terrible role and relying on people assuming they wouldn't use that role.

I guess maybe it's just a type of setup where scum dies if they lose a member early, but are in a solid position if they can survive a few days. and in that sense I guess it did fit my usual style of play to some extent (this being lynch many scum early and then limp to a win).

overall, while I enjoyed the game for the first two days outside of all of the frustration, which I largely got over as soon as I realized Wisdom was just trying to tilt me, I'm just left feeling like there was really no use in anything that had happened in the 1 1/2 months after N2, I largely just feel like all it was was me being cheesed by the setup. and I guess maybe that means GIF accomplished what he wanted.

[pieguyn]

I'm pretty satisfied with my reads, though. before we all fell victim to the setup, I caught Varsoon/Wisdom immediately and thought pisskop was a likely pick for the last scum via POE.

I'm also pretty satisfied with how I chose to play my role, I basically saw it and thought "fuck this, how do I play that?" and thought "fuck it, my role does nothing and it's a very sketchy looking role so I should probably just claim immediately".

[pieguyn]

ironically, if pisskop was just a standard scum player and didn't have the role that he had, probably none of the shit that would have led to me writing him off would have happened and I'd have ended up POE'ing him according to his play anyway (that's pretty much where my reads were D3).

this is the kind of shit I mean when I say that scum would play a lot differently being incapable of killing and that it messed up my reads a lot, we were just in a scenario where everyone had done a bunch of stuff that'd usually make no sense from a scum POV and it at least wasn't apparent to me that it was because whoever the last scum was couldn't kill. it's kind of ironic how that works, it got him town read in a position where he'd otherwise likely have not survived but it was irrelevant since he never wins that position anyway.

[pieguyn]

after that last day ended, GIF told me that he was glad for my own sake that it didn't end in me being lynched. and honestly, he's 100% right. had I somehow been lynched there, given we were really in what was an autowin position and the thing that I hate the absolute most is taking a good position and somehow managing to fuck up and lose it, it would have been a really traumatic experience for sure.

[pieguyn]

I had this amazing post written out that I was going to post when day opened, then Varsoon flipped and everyone else came to the realization you were scum and I didn't need to post it.

I was so, so, so ready, I was gonna fight both of you at the same time and it would have been beautiful.

for completeness (and for anyone who wants to read some analysis of Wisdom's scum game), this is what I was gonna post had Varsoon not died in a timely fashion overnight.

Spoiler:

so overnight I thought really hard about the Wisdom scum read, because this is a weird sort of game where outside of {dwlee, Varsoon} I can think of at least some reason to town read everyone else left, whiiich means I'm going wrong somewhere, and until my 11-th hour twilight epiphany yesterday I really had no idea where I could have been going wrong.

first, his read on Cakez. when I looked at it again, what hit me is that he has posted absolutely no explanation or reasoning for it at all. all it is is just shallow throwaway statements like "as if drealz isn't flipping town and Cakez knows it", "they're ignoring me", "he's afraid to call me scum". there are no specific examples of how Cakez is WK'ing, no places where he attempts to distinguish the possibility of scum-Cakez WK'ing from... Cakez just being town who used his scum hunting ability to figure it out... and nothing that shows any real depth or critical thought.

the read on me is the same... the best he came up with for actual reasoning in terms of scum reading me is that "your walls are manipulative", which lol at this because he has seen me write walls as town that were far longer than anything I have written in this game - and besides that, again, it's not a point that has any depth to it. besides that the only thing he came up with was how I relate to Cakez, as opposed to anything about my actual play, anything that shows he's actually willing to step up and directly challenge anything I've done in the game.

the first time around, I largely didn't suspect him for any of this because he has done things similar to this as part of his lazy-town MO, but the thing is, even when he's disengaged with the game he still at least attempts to make an effort to point out what the issues with people's posts actually are. for example, when he scum read me in PCB (game where he was town and I was scum and I got him mislynched D1 thanks to his low effort play), he specifically called out one of my posts where I was defending Luna and pointed out an issue with the argument I was making, he specifically pulled posts of mine and called them out for being bullshit, that sort of thing, even though he didn't put any effort into making his push on me turn into anything and largely was resigned to the fact that I wouldn't be lynched.

there is nothing of that sort in this game, and moreover, he has been pushing these reads much, much, much more strongly than I have ever seen him push reads as lazy-town. which isn't his lazy-town MO, it's his scum MO: just repeat "X is scum" over and over and over and rely on people following him without stopping and thinking critically about what he is writing.

besides that I largely just think he's putting on an act here. the bit at the end in D1 twilight about "you were lynched because you took issue with my style" is something that he *does* as town, but it just doesn't fit at all here if you consider what drealz actually did this game. he tends to play a pretty openly manipulative scum game, though, and so that is another thing I think that's more a part of his scum MO than his town MO.

second, I want to consider the position the scum team likely is in in this game - unless me and Nahdia and co. are just completely wrong and both of {Varsoon, dwlee} are town, the scum team this game is likely really starved for mislynches. there are a few hiccups like Luna's push on beeboy, but by and large, a lot of people in this game just won't get lynched due to how widely town read they are.

this is another reason I think Wisdom's push on Cakez is just off. as I said, the way he's pushing Cakez for "WK'ing" makes no sense. I think what's likely happening here is that he pushed this on the assumption that drealz would get pushed to lynch D1, which would give him leverage to push Cakez D2, and once he flipped town, if you look at Wisdom's reads, even though I'd be basically unlynchable he's been gearing up for a push on e.g. Aero afterward for a while now. this not only makes the way he approached D1 have very strong scum motivation, but it IS something I distinctly recall Wisdom doing as scum before - in Pokemon uPick II, he attempted to push zmuffin for correctly identifying McMenno as a town lynch, in a way really similar to what he's doing to Cakez/drealz here (anyone who wants to verify this, read from D4 of that game).

I also do know that Wisdom tends to prefer town reading his partners, so *if* we're not just completely wrong about {Varsoon, dwlee}, Wisdom does fit in as scum with them really well. on one hand, he's been hard defending Varsoon the entire game, but something that is a lot more subtle is that I could really easily see his giant Cakez push as intended to chainsaw for dwlee. I would have to go back and double check the timing again, but key point here is if one or both of {Varsoon, dwlee} as scum, Wisdom should be put under heavy scrutiny.

if {Varsoon, dwlee} are both town, feel free to dismiss most of this as being blatantly wrong, I suppose, but I really think I'm not.

so... yeah, there was pretty much no way out of it even if Aero's vig shot didn't exist, I'm pretty sure.

ugh I wish I could time travel back to D1 before the game devolved into insanity, I thought it was bad then thanks to Wisdom tilting me the entire game day but I never even imagined it would turn out like this. to be fair, that was really well played on his part until I figured out it was what he was doing.

[pieguyn]

I think this setup would have been passable if GIF had just done a standard traitor variation even if he didn't want it to be recruitable, i.e. knows partners, can't be recruited and is immune to kills (even just 1x as it was here), inherits kill. I think just changing that and leaving the rest as is is maybe slightly town sided ~ even, and avoids all the nonsense that was post-D2 of this game. I'm aware of the troll factor and him wanting to do something I'd think he wouldn't ever put into a setup, etc., but if you're sacrificing it for playability, it's much better I think.