Mini 1568: Another Awesome Alliteration Adventure (over)

[T S O]

I am 100% confident that Cho, Elyse, and mnemonicdevice are Town for their votes. Accordingly, they are now Town Day 1 Unlynchables.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: MTD

Yeah, your vote wasn't one bit unlynchable.

Vote: Cho

Thanks for getting us out of RVS.

[T S O]

You shouldn't be okay with votes on you. These people are calling you scum, not throwing you a party.

[T S O]

oh hi tool!

winning scumteam last game: you paranoid of me?

[T S O]

Oh my god you're scum aren't you.

You didn't address my vote

Then you backtracked to saying Unlynchable doesn't mean Town

Then you qualified your previous reads when there had been no posts from them since

[T S O]

Hang this, thanks.

When she flips scum I'm conftown, by the way.

[T S O]

She doesn't have to be scum, but if she's wrong, who's gonna point it out? You!

But there's caught scum in Cho so sheep me.

[T S O]

coolest and correctest.

It looks like you have an issue with my logic. Go on.

[T S O]

I don't have to be nice to be Town.

You should explain why you're voting me, because you think I'm scum, so now you have to provide your reasoning.

[T S O]

Forming RVS townreads in no way seriously confirms someone as town. Don't be silly.

The term you used was "Unlynchables". Not Townreads. UNLYNCHABLES. Now, maybe this is a reaaalllly peculiar quirk of mine, but when I see an absolute term like Unlynchable, I assume it's serious. Maybe it's just me, though.

But if I have an RVS townread and happiness read on someone, unless their play drastically changes, I'm not going to want to lynch them at all!

A townread and a happiness read. A happ-i-ness read.

What the actual fuck.

How does me elaborating on my posts make me scum? As I see it, you're attacking me, so I should be expected to respond, no?

Elaborating isn't the problem here; you knew you'd slipped so you started backtracking, and you can see it clearly that your stances on your "Unlynchables" make no sense.

Lastly, why should we assume that this game is or isn't multiball?

Assume non-multiball until proven multiball is my mantra regarding this.

Regardless, you'll never be conftown, because you're being quite mean right now.

You do not treat people as conftown because they are NICE to you. You treat them as conftown because they look Town, or do Town things. Niceness has nothing to do with this!

[T S O]

I think she made it pretty clear that she pretty much just doesn't like you.

If only I cared! D:

(Which: I find your youthful exuberance quite rejuvenating, frankly. I just don't think you've sniffed anything resembling "logic.")

And so, you should be able to show rather easily where I've misled myself.

T S O

, I've already explained, dear!

But you haven't. That's the thing. I'm actually going to have to make a post now detailing just how wild and wonderful your multiple explanations are because you have so many.

You clearly want this game to bend to your layers of self-confidence and false scumtells, but the more you speak out, screaming "look at how loud and consequently how open I'm being; you cannot hope to do anything

but

townread me for my arrogance!", the more you detract from us being able to focus on the game and playerlist as a whole.

And that's just not

right

, sadly.

In short, and to cut away your bull: "TSO, you're scumreading me, so I am scumreading you back."

Glad we could straighten that out.

Riptide

, yes, of course! Their votes and posts simply looked so comfortable. It certainly doesn't look like scum forcing themselves to play along with town's "true RVS" game, as may happen when scum are trying to choose whether to place their first vote on a teammate or not!

Why did you insert yourself in there, then?

Also, would you mind explaining how mnemonicdevice's naked vote was so Townish you had to call him Unlynchable?

Of course, this isn't a concrete towntell, as I've already explained.

Explain to me how, in any sane person's world, the term

Unlynchable

means the same thing as

non-concrete townreads

. Go on, dear.

[T S O]

Well, it's a textbook scum response, because it's really vague with no specifics, but its grandeur suggests I have been roaring to all the players since I came in about my incredible amount of

swagger

towniness. The only problem is I haven't.

[T S O]

I'll respond to Cho's recent post/collection of lies tomorrow, and I'll also do that post detailing her trajectory in regards to the "Unlynchables."

[T S O]

Burning_Earth, your opinion on the above would be appreciated.

[T S O]

Everyone who is voting Cho needs to stop. He's obviously newbtown. Come on. What scum (with a joindate last week) would automatically eliminate two players from the lynch pool? I agree that it's unreasonable to call people unlynchable for RVS only, but I don't see how it makes him scum at all. TSO looks to be jumping on newbtown and I think he's smarter than that, so I'm scumreading him too atm.

Why would Town do that? Why would Town put themselves in their own "Unlynchable" pool? It's more likely to come from Scum than from Town, in my opinion, because it's a rather sneaky thing to do.

I'm not "jumping on newbtown", I'm pointing out genuine problems with Cho's play which are scummy. It's nothing to do with my intelligence, and even if it was, just because I'm "clever" doesn't mean I can't attack newbies for scummy play.

I really hope you don't feel the need to defend Cho just because you're an Unlynchable, Elyse, her play merits the pressure I've put on.

TSO is making me uncomfortable. I don't know much about how he usually plays, but I had a game with him a little while back where he used a similar sort of hyper aggression as scum.

Which game was this? Have you checked other games of mine as scum? Do they correlate with this one game? What are the similarities between that games and this one?

These posts in particular stand out to me:

Hang this, thanks.
When she flips scum I'm conftown, by the way.

Well, it's a textbook scum response, because it's really vague with no specifics, but its grandeur suggests I have been roaring to all the players since I came in about my incredible amount of

swagger

towniness. The only problem is I haven't.

VOTE: TSO. Why are you trying so hard to look town?

Well, the first post is me stating openly I'm going to consider myself conftown when Cho flips scum, and the second is me explaining how Cho's reason for voting me is scummy. I'm not particularly trying to look Town in either of them, Jargonaut, so you might have to try a little harder.

[T S O]

It doesn't make sense for him to do it as Town either. I play a lot of Newbies, Elyse, and I've never seen any newb player so blatantly do that.

[T S O]

I know this is going to sound outlandish, but does anyone think there might actually be an unlynchable PR in this game?? From my viewpoint, I don't think Cho would just create an unlynchable pool for (seemingly) no good reason.

An -unlynchable- PR.

N. O.

[T S O]

Newbie 1473 is an incredibly unfair game to bring up. It involves me fakeclaiming in the Matrix, so in order to appear Town I had no option BUT to confirm myself. I attacked pisskop ebcause he had me/Nacho pegged, and I certainly didn't do it early-game, unprovoked, like here. The games are completely different.

Maybe it's your opinion that if Cho's scum, I won't be conftown. It's mine that I will be, or at least something close to it.

[T S O]

Elyse, what I should try to explain to you is that the original Unlynchable act isn't actually that bad. Vote worthy, yes, but not that bad. Cho's posts after my post are the reason I'm convinced of her guilt.

[T S O]

I'm not arrogant. As in, I'm not going to be condescending for no reason (Thor). I just don't have a problem calling shit out.

[T S O]

I can show you my scum meta and my town meta, if you want.

[T S O]

Time for TSO's mighty CHO BACKTRACK POST OF SCUMMINESS.

[T S O]

Also to all my

haters

people calling me out for not having logic: at least copy Elyse and have a fair argument so I can convince you/you convince me (hard to do, I'll admit). How can I be expected to see my own "faulty logic" if you refuse to explain it to me?

[T S O]

There's motivation to do that, we can agree. It's either Town or Scum. I'm very sure it's not Town.

Tonight, I'll post my full case, and you can all critique it and vote Cho, preferably the latter.

[T S O]

Egg, who's Charter?

[T S O]

Cool.

[T S O]

Spoiler: The Votes That Made Them Unlynchable

VOTE: toolenduso

VOTE: Riptide

UNVOTE:
VOTE: MTD

That vote looked like you didn't want to step on toes and instead of commenting on another vote (I think mnemonic's Riptide vote was good), you said the first person to post is scum. It's like you're trying to keep us in RVS.

I am 100% confident that Cho, Elyse, and mnemonicdevice are Town for their votes. Accordingly, they are now Town Day 1 Unlynchables.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: MTD

The first thing to note about post #27 is that Cho has inserted herself in there. This is not a Town thing to do. The Theory of Mind states that Cho understands she doesn't need to place herself in that group, primarily because, excluding her, nobody else thinks she should be in it on her current actions, but also because she knows she doesn't have to do it - it's overcompensating to appear Town. There is no need to call herself Unlynchable on page 2. Elyse and I are at odds at this one, but even she can't explain the motivation or rationale behind someone needing to do that as Town. There is none.

Something else that no-one seems to understand is the placing of mnemonicdevice in the Unlynchable section. The only post he'd had up until then was a naked vote on Riptide - not the stuff I would expect of someone I was calling Unlynchable. However, after reading through, I understand why mnemonicdevice was placed in this category.

Cho seems to have placed great faith in Elyse very quickly. It's easy to overlook, but in Elyse's #25 she compliments mnemonic's vote. This is the reason he's been placed in this exclusive section. Not any observation of Cho's, but a passing remark by Elyse.

Cho is hardsheeping a RVS read by someone with 2 posts, on page 2.

Spoiler: Reaction to Pressure

T S O

, how are we out of RVS now? Wasn't it already so earlier?

This is another example of her unwarranted iron-clad confidence in Elyse. She believes that Elyse alone brought the game out of RVS on page 2, and thus she seems to believe my comment is irrelevant. She doesn't address me calling her non-Unlynchable either, meaning she never really believed it herself. She just opportunistically put it in there and hoped people wouldn't comment. There is no Town motivation in this.

MTD

, I feel wonderfully comfortable with Elyse and mnemonicdevice's RVS votes! Of course those votes don't mean they're town, but I found them much more pleasant than anything caledfwitch or Burning_Earth said.

Cho has previously told us the votes made those three players "Unlynchable". I think we'll all agree it's a strong term.

Now, the statement has been so completely edited that it's unrecognisable from the previous. She's townreading them because they make her feel "comfortable". She the continues, telling us these votes DON'T mean they're Town (this is such an incredible regression I had to double-check it to be sure I was right), but they do mean that they were pleasant.

Let's start off by noting once more she doesn't mention herself. This again proves that she was being opportunistic, without a doubt. Secondly, WHAT? She is trying to explain that when she uses the term "Unlynchable", it is because people make her comfortable and pleasant.

Comfortable and pleasant.

These are, in the world of Cho, quite synonymous with each other.

As a result, Cho, Elyse, and mnemonicdevice are exempt from much of my suspicion for today, provided that they don't royally fuck up, of course!

Look at how much this has regressed since I pressured it.

Originally, the statement was "Town Day 1 Unlynchables". No uncertainty, no hesitance. It's an absolute stance.

After I called her out on it, the statement changed dramatically. Now, we have "Exempt from

much

of

my

suspicion for today,

provided that they don't royally fuck up

, of course!"

There are multiple qualifiers in that post which weren't there previously, and which weaken the conviction of the post. I've italicized them for easy viewing. It doesn't make sense that these have showed up now, unless Cho realised how bad it was and began to subtly backtrack. And a subtle backtrack is the hallmark of scum play.

Spoiler: Voting of TSO

T S O

, you're quite a "force of nature", as some might say! The louder your thunder, the deafer we become~

But if that's your intent, then so be it!

UNVOTE:
VOTE: T S O

I don't have to be nice to be Town.

You should explain why you're voting me, because you think I'm scum, so now you have to provide your reasoning.

T S O

, I've already explained, dear! You clearly want this game to bend to your layers of self-confidence and false scumtells, but the more you speak out, screaming "look at how loud and consequently how open I'm being; you cannot hope to do anything

but

townread me for my arrogance!", the more you detract from us being able to focus on the game and playerlist as a whole.

Cho then votes me, on the pretext that I'm attempting to manipulate the game with my self-confidence and arrogance, and that because this nefarious deed is simply unacceptable, she's voting me in order to restore order and law as they were.

This is utter hogwash, and it's clear that Cho wants a reason to vote me back, and so has concocted one out of nothing at all. There isn't any solid reason she has for voting me, and it's painfully obvious.

Aside from that bull, I think the phrase "focus on the game and playerlist as a

whole

" is incredibly incongruent with Cho's apparent mindset while posting that. She was the one who set players like Elyse aside and told us we shouldn't be considering them as lynch candidates on the basis of 2 posts, and then she lectures us with rhetoric which is meant to sound Town but just showcases further holes and lies in her posts.

[T S O]

It's natural that your suspicion of Cho is fading; she's lurking out the pressure like a true scumfuck.

[T S O]

Yeah, your reading comprehension's even worse than I thought; you're not just somewhat stupid, you're borderline illiterate.

[T S O]

omg am I a mean TSO?????

scumz are always meanz, derefore im scum right b_E?

NOW DIS IS LOGIC!

[T S O]

That case took me time, but it's clear you read it with your fucking shitty biased intepretations:

"I don't really want to think Cho's scum because it's too much effort. Hmm, I can misrep this, I can ignore that, I can point this out ...yep, I've done a really prejudiced attitude to a genuine case in approximately 45 seconds."

[T S O]

I mean I've actually noticed I'm getting like Thor as Town and I don't like that but my fucking God your reaction to that post was so genuinely awful it saddens me.

PEdit: No, that's the worst thing of all. You actually think it is.

[T S O]

I don't really care if you're scumreading me or not, to be quite honest anyone scumreading me at this stage is doing it wrong. I'm not scumreading you either; it's not about being scum. My problem is the way you so callously dismissed a post which, yes, actually, IS good, DOES have solid basis and accusations, but more to the point, took me a fucking age and a half to write. Cases are not wrote in 5 minutes. I'm in plenty of games right now and I have people asking me to devote time to those; instead I came here, made the case, and eventually posted it. It's not even about agreeing with me - I can accept, if not understand, if you disagree with the case, but I will not fucking let someone away with dismissing it so arrogantly, when it's clear they skimmed it for a smoking gun, which never exists in Mafia, excluding PR lockdowns, decided they didn't want to consider the case, and put it down. I put work in here because I really like this playerlist and I especially like talking to Elyse; although our viewpoints are polar opposites, I can see she's read the case and can point out holes and different theories to me, and I'm willing to work because of that feedback.

You, however, so rudely dismissed it that I don't even feel as motivated about this case, this scumread, this game, as I did.

Thank you for that shining showcase of your social skills.

[T S O]

Now that's a lot better. I'm still probably going to tear it apart, but I appreciate that.

[T S O]

OK I'm ready to vote Cho. This looks much more like the townTSO I'm familiar with than the scumTSO. Also, people's defenses of Cho against TSO's case haven't convinced me as much as what I've seen from her slot (or from most of TSO's case). Also:

It's natural that your suspicion of Cho is fading; she's lurking out the pressure like a true scumfuck.

This is a very good point. This is something that I have deliberately done as scum before, and it worked like a charm.

VOTE: Cho

@Dunham: would you mind giving a serious response to my question, or was #89 as serious a response as I'm going to get?

Excellent vote.

[T S O]

Sorry, N.

[T S O]

Catching up tonight; the justification that you don't like me "flaming" and so you ...won't lynch scum is actively playing against your win condition.

[T S O]

Out of an interest, because people seem to be engaging in a character assassination of me, I'm not a douche. I can't be nice as Town: I feel bad about lynching people, I let my feelings about them influence my read on them, which I shouldn't; I become too susceptible to buddying. Etcetera. So while I appreciate Cho dislikes my pressure on her, and she's just mad because she's been done on page 2, the rest of you need to know this.

So while I'll understand if you think I'm a penis, I'd prefer you wouldn't.

Back to the game.

[T S O]

I don't feel anything I've done has been over-the-top. You do, since I'm doing it to you, but that -is- just you.

Please don't pretend you're so Town you won't scumread me, because you already did.

[T S O]

You never stopped?

[T S O]

MTD, and I don't.

[T S O]

Of course I do.

Catch-up still happening.

[T S O]

Basically Cho exhibited strong town reads. She used the word 'unlynchable' as strong town reads shouldn't be lynched. It is, I admit, a little odd to include herself within they 'unlynchable' pile, but is it really that different to putting yourself at the very top of a T/S list?

Yes, it is, and if you want to continue the comparison you would then suddenly not appear on the T/S list.

A: She was right, RVS was over. Don't know what you're getting at.

B: Oh come on, everyone uses strong language early game. I didn't really want to lynch egg when I voted him, I just scum read him mildly. The same with cho making out her townreads as stronger than they really were

C: see B

This is such a terrible way of justifying Cho's actions. I don't know why you're wasting your time with this guff other than some ridiculous innate need to go against my opinions.

Maybe RVS was over; I'm not scumreading her for believing it, but it shows that she's already following Elyse blindly.

I've said before, though, that my main problem isn't even the term of Unlynchable. It's the backtracking after, the regressing of the reads in that section and regression of criteria needed to leave them, to be wordy.

This is a great example of you not actually reading my posts, but skimming and seeing what you think you should see.

I retract my statement that this point was OMGUS. In fact, cho was OMGUSing. However, that is a reasonable town tell, not a scum tell. Scum know not to OMGUS like that.

OMGUS. Is. Not. A. Town. Tell. This is a really, really bad meta which is starting to spread around the site and I hate it so much. OMGUS is the easiest thing for scum to do under pressure, as well as the most likely. OMGUS is a definite scumtell. There's a strong difference between Town OMGUS and Scum. Hers is undoubtedly scum; her reasoning is she doesn't like me/I'm scumreading her. Not Town, no no, bad Burning_Earth.

Lurking is null and you know it.

Lurking after sustained pressure, however, is scummy as it gets.

T S O is a

null

leaning

I-hope-you-are-scum

read for me.

My vote is still on him because I don't like unnecessarily mean people.

So you don't have any real reason for voting me, in other words.

I was lurking out the pressure like a true townfuck.

No, you weren't.

It's also depressing to try and fight off a lynch when certain people are determined to use every new post you make as a way to further their confirmation bias.

Confirmation bias implies I'm scum. Apparently you're not calling me scum. Which is it?

I am aware T S O posted a "case" that apparently proves that I am scum.

I'm not responding because anything I say will just give him more "ammunition".

Alternatively, to me, you can't respond because it's all true, and then you act like it's unbelievable I'm still calling you scum.

Didn't like Cho's most recent post but I don't know if it's necessarily scummy.

I didn't like it either, but it's not particularly scummy.

It doesn't alleviate my read, though.

@TSO: You're dumb, but almost certainly town.

That's great and all, I guess.

B_E testing the mod's tolerance for slightly sub-TSO behavior I see.

Oh you.

Where did I say that I won't lynch scum? I like my vote on you because not only is trying to read you...

polarizing

... but I don't particularly like your behavior either.

You can't read me and you don't like my behaviour, so you're voting me.

How many explanations have you given for your vote on me now? You can't read me, you don't like my behaviour, I'm trying to run the game, more ...it's remarkable.

You may be a null read for me now, but I'm ok with my vote because you still could be overaggressive Scum, according to what people have said about your playstyle.

Who are these people, Cho?

I like to think I can deal with regular tunneling.

Well, your lurking suggests you can't.

Lashing out at anyone who tried to tell you that you're wrong- I'm less inclined to accept.

I agree with this. Although I didn't lash out at people for disagreeing with me (I haven't attacked Elyse, I attacked Burning for laziness and rudeness) your voting of me for scumreading you is something I have said I don't accept.

It's not like everything Scum say is textbook-scummy.

And I haven't picked on everything you've said, so this is true, but you have told me and the game a whole load of scummy stuff and your explanations don't add up whatsoever for the majority of them.

And it's not like everything Town does is "by the book". I've been hoping this whole time that your blind aggression comes from Scum for sanity's sake, but with so many people saying you read as Town, I want to be stubborn with my read but I know I need to concede in some way at some point or another. So you're Null for now.

So you're bowing to pressure in not scumreading me, because you stand out by scumreading me, then.

And they say I'm dramatising this case.

Also I'm back to townreading Cho.

Explain how your read transitioned from T -> S -> T to me, Elyse.

Cho's disappearance is pretty bad. It's pretty common for scum to feel pressure and fade into the background until someone else does something scummy. Her admission of this doesn't make it a town thing to do by the way.

THANK YOU, EGG.

[T S O]

Egg

, I was lurking prior to 144. We've already discussed this.

My burst in posting now is because I have the time to do so, as opposed to my inactivity prior to 177.

BUT BUT

YOU LITERALLY JUST SAID YOU WERE LURKING TO REMOVE PRESSURE

INACTIVITY WAS NEVER MENTIONED ONCE

Catching up tonight; the justification that you don't like me "flaming" and so you ...won't lynch scum is actively playing against your win condition.

C'mon this is stupid. I am scumreading neither you nor Cho (as I said for both).
I also stated that I don't agree with your "case" on Cho.
The only thing that I said me not liking you flaming was a reason for was not discussing that at length.
Way to misrep.

The feel I got, and still get, was like Burning_Earth:

"Hmm, I don't really want to analyze and potentially change my stance, will I be open to this case? Naaah."

It's not particularly scummy to do that, but it is a bit irritating for me.

I was brought up to speak when spoken to, except for when clubbing or hide-and-seek is involved.

What are you using this as an excuse for again?

Does it not bother you that she basically contradicted herself on her TSO read? Also, doesn't it bother you that she tried to pass lurking off as town?

You can be Town just for this. I don't even care.

Does it not bother you that she basically contradicted herself on her TSO read?

How so? Not seeing it.

I've tried to be sarcastic to this remark but even my broad and nuanced sarcasm cannot fluently express just how unbelievable I find it you don't see this.

Also, doesn't it bother you that she tried to pass lurking off as town?

Not really seeing this either. She showed a possible town motivation for it, didn't say that it was a towny thing to do.
Generally speaking, lurking is null.

I challenge you to find me a viable action which does not have a potential town motivation. Go on.

[T S O]

Two things before I go:

1) The argument that I can't specifically find scum motivation in an action, therefore it is not scummy, is full of holes. Firstly, not all scum posts have scum motivation: hell, often they can have Town motivations, in various situations. Secondly, though when you can't find any Town motivation but you can't find Scum motivation either, you don't just drop it. Town motivation should be far clearer than Scum motivation; lack of the former should be quite worrying, regardless of the presence of the latter.

2) I am not aggressive as either alignment; I am somewhat aggressive in Newbies as Scum and as Town. That's it. If someone is calling me scum for aggression, show me my meta. I know it better than you, but it's possible I'm wrong.

[T S O]

But it's not lurking, it's lurking under pressure!

[T S O]

Unless you get in PRs, which is different, and I'm not getting into).

Don't give her any ideas...

[T S O]

Do you have a problem with her later attributing it to non-intentional inactivity?

[T S O]

Pretty sure confirmation bias is something to do reading your scum role PM and thus knowing others are Town.

I could be wrong here.

[T S O]

I'll respond to you further tomorrow, Elyse, I'm falling asleep here.

[T S O]

hiya Rubi, did we play in a Large together one time? You seem somewhat familiar.

Lastly, why should we assume that this game is or isn't multiball?

Assume non-multiball until proven multiball is my mantra regarding this.

Your top scum suspect suddenly demands to know why you think the game is or isn't multiball, when neither you nor anyone else has mentioned multiball previously.

You don't call them on this at all, and instead act as though you

did

in fact say something about multiball which needed clarified.

Please explain the thought process behind that for me.

I don't know, really. I just didn't want to get into a discussion about multiball because I felt it could give her things to talk about which weren't related to the Unlynchables. So I cut the discussion off before it could give her the chance to move onto it and away from her own scumminess.

I thought about it a while later and concluded I probably should say something about it, but when I did, tool had already commented on it, so I felt no need anymore.

Pretty sure confirmation bias is something to do reading your scum role PM and thus knowing others are Town.

I could be wrong here.

This makes no sense. You've been calling Cho scum all game. You should not have read

"certain people are determined to use every new post you make as a way to further their confirmation bias"

and assumed the accusation was that you know she's town.

It took me a while to mentally get exactly what you're saying here, but when I did, I came to the same conclusion as before. I don't see what's wrong with my thought process here.

TSO's brain: "Confirmation bias = Scum"
Cho: TSO has confirmation bias.
TSO: Didn't you say you weren't calling me scum?

is a paraphrased version of events, as far as I can see.

If you did interpret it that way, you should have responded by asking how she could possibly get that idea -

not

by saying "so you think I'm scum then??"

But, if I interpreted confirmation bias as her calling me scum, and she said I had confirmation bias ...then she would be calling me scum, so my reaction makes sense?

[T S O]

Vote Dunham

Someone tell me why I'm wrong.

I've seen scum pretend not to give a fuck, but in Dunham's case, it seems legitimate. He genuinely doesn't seem to give a shit, which is Town.

[T S O]

I don't care for Dunham's reaction to Riptide's question about why his second post should include scum hunting. Sure, scumhunting is helpful and protown and all that. But there are players who would rather BS the first few pages regardless of alignment. While I'm not so sure that's what Riptide was doing (I think he was just saying Elyse's point was BS), Dunham ignores the idea that not everyone is in SRSMODE on Page 1. When Burning shows support for that idea, Dunham now feels safe laying a vote. I don't like that he waited for Burning's endorsement.

The Riptide/Burning thing doesn't feel town/town to me. At the same time, if this is right, my Dunham point is probably wrong so I'm confused by this.

Tool, are you townreading MTD and Riptide or are you just saying that Dunham's votes look like scum on town?

I don't like Dunham calling out burning as "testing the Mod". It looks like an attempt to get burning modkilled. And his "beating your wife" comment would suggest that he isn't someone who would be upset at someone calling someone else dumb.

This is your case on Dunham, yes?

[T S O]

I'd be interested to hear why you thought Elyse was scum, actually.

[T S O]

Putting on my flip-flops

UNVOTE: VOTE: cho

Hammer vote.

Didn't see the end of last page. I'll respond to Rubicon whenever I get back online. Busy day.

Oh, and I'm also debating whether or not I should vote Riptide. Partially because I'm kind of tired of their misrepresentative attacks on me, partially because it's the biggest wagon besides mine. Any thoughts? Would you call me out as scummy for being survivalistic, or are Town not allowed to want to avoid guaranteed mislynches?

Bye.

"Uh oh no-one's replying better post something"

That'll teach me to be checking VCs!

Damn

Yeah.

Ergle flerple werp

And these look forced. Especially the first two.

[T S O]

Timing is important; #276 is 2 minutes after #275.

[T S O]

I don't think that post is actually particularly bad - it's one of Cho's best posts, Burning_Earth.

[T S O]

The Jargonaut-scum argument bores me because it feels like it's more rhetoric than anyway solid.

Activity is shit. Prod everyone, N, and I include myself in this.

[T S O]

Oh, yes, that's what I couldn't think of - I want the Elyse-scum argument, Riptide, and I don't want you diluting it from necromancy. In your next post, please.

[T S O]

I'll clock in tomorrow with a post - I will say I still don't like the Dunham wagon.

[T S O]

yay catch-up time!

Rubicon, if it can be done, it will be done.

[T S O]

I don't think that post is actually particularly bad - it's one of Cho's best posts, Burning_Earth.

I don't agree that it's one of Cho's best posts, but I don't think it was particularly scummy either. Now that you point it out, B_E pointing to that post as the main reason he flip-flopped and voted for Cho makes B_E look worse in my eyes. There was plenty to scumread Cho for before that post, but that's the one that made him switch? Seems like shallow reasoning to me.

I would have to agree. I'm starting to dislike Burning_Earth more and more - he feels off today.

You'll notice that between my posts 87 and 209, multiple people said that TSO's play at the time was similar to his town meta.

I may have asked this before, but what meta of me were you using? I'm not particularly aggressive as scum, so I'd like to see it.

But of course there are things that can change my opinion! (winkwink)

I'm admittedly thick sometimes, but I have no idea what you're talking about here.

I'm still town though.

And you felt the need to tell us this ...why?

I don't approve of the dunham wagon. Yeah, he doesn't seem very invested and his posts are generally not that serious, but really, that doesn't scream scum to me and as others said, the not-that-seriousness seems to be in his meta.

Pretty much this is my Dunham stance.

What's your read on Jargonaut, anyway?

I don't really know why he opposed the Cho wagon - it was almost like he felt he had to do it, but not in a scummy way, he just felt that someone should object. That showed in a rather weak and uncommitted argument. I'm not scumreading him, but he's not incredibly Town either. Gun to my head, Town.

I don't approve of the dunham wagon. Yeah, he doesn't seem very invested and his posts are generally not that serious, but really, that doesn't scream scum to me and as others said, the not-that-seriousness seems to be in his meta.
It really just seems to be an easy target which scum would love to hop on to me.

Also:

I'm short on time but I just wanna say I approve of the Dunham wagon.

Why this? You are voting him, it is obvious you approve, so why say this?

Start an alternative wagon and give us a good reason to vote it with you.

Not really a new wagon, but I will
VOTE: b_e
(I did think I already was doing that...)
As I said I p much agree with what tool said there, also that "being angry at himself" seemed fake to me, I especially wouldn't expect a townie to make that much of a fuzz about "you should probably lynch me".

I'm liking MTD more and more with posts like these.

Vote: Rubicon

I haven't been particularly impressed with anything you've produced so far.

I would have to disagree with this - I thought his analysis of TSO-Cho was fair and unbiased. He's a townread.

Vote: Rubicon

I haven't been particularly impressed with anything you've produced so far.

This is such an out of left field vote. Other than not being impressed do you think he's scummy?

Do I need to think he's scummy to vote him?

Um, yes, actually. You do. That's the point.

toolendo town read.

Indeed.

Would really like for TSO to do something town with the interactions from his push on Cho yesterday.

Having a look now.

[T S O]

@TSO: It was because of the game we both replaced into, Newbie 1473. I had felt that your push on Cho was similar to your push on pisskop that game, but ultimately I decided that the similarities were mostly superficial and that there were too many differences to use it as a comparison.

You're damn right there were a lot of differences - namely, me OMGUS'ing pisskop on Day 2. Not page 2. Biiiig differences.

This is a bit strange, Jargo.

[T S O]

Apologies, Rubicon, I'm inactive site-wide and simply cannot find time to post tonight.

[T S O]

Like I said, no time brother, many apologies. Will do tomorrow. ugh.

[T S O]

No-one hammers until I post.

[T S O]

TSO's post is coming; quite literally, being made now.

I can tell you now I don't have a problem with a Burning_Earth wagon and really should be voting.

[T S O]

act

noun
1. anything done, being done, or to be done; deed; performance:

a heroic act.

2. the process of doing:

caught in the act.

3. a formal decision, law, or the like, by a legislature, ruler, court, or other authority; decree or edict; statute; judgment, resolve, or award:

an act of Congress.

4. an instrument or document stating something done or transacted.
5. one of the main divisions of a play or opera:

the second act of

Hamlet.

Vote Count 1.09

toolenduso

(0)

The Betting Pool

(0)

Rubicon 

(1) MTD

mnemonicdevice

(0)

Jargonaut

(0)

Dunhamganger

(0)

MTD

(0)

Elyse

(0)

T S O

(0)

Riptide

(3) mnemonicdevice, Elyse, Cho

Cho

(7)

T S O, Riptide, Egg, toolenduso, The Betting Pool, Dunhamganger, Burning_Earth

Burning_Earth

(0)

Egg

(1) Rubicon 

Not Voting

(1) Jargonaut

With 13 alive, it takes 7 to lynch.

Deadline is in

(expired on 2014-05-03 21:42:05)

Basically, the tl;dr is that some votes, like tool's are super-town, but Burning_Earth is undoubtedly the worst. There aren't really any other bad ones.

I'm sorry this is such a shit post, guys, but I'm too tired to elaborate. That's ultimately all you need to know.

[T S O]

Riptide's jump on Cho was the first after mine and seeing as I had a damn strong case to vote Cho with, there's nothing wrong with doing that. The Unlynchable quote is vote-worthy; there is nothing wrong with that.

The Betting Pool votess Cho for admitting she lurked and trying to pass it off as Town.

Dunhamganger is precisely Town for giving no reason - scum never do that. Also, you can see a trajectory in his previous posts where he goes from "TSO is wrong" to "I dislike her more" to "She's scum."

Uh huh, Rubicon, the fact that my conclusions are not the same as yours doesn't mean they're wrong. And if I hadn't looked at the posts before, how could I know the conclusion I'd come to?

I'd like you to discuss this with me further.

[T S O]

I have intent to hammer, if there are no objections. Burning_Earth is definitely the scummiest player in the game right now, and he needs rope.

If he flips scum, then I'd be looking at people who pushed the Dunham counterwagon.
If not, I have way too many townreads, so I'll have to do a whole re-analysis.

I really really hope he flips scum.

[T S O]

I think we can safely assume certain things about our power.

I really don't feel like reading back again, because my reads have gone to shit. But I will. The majority of players here I don't actually have a read on. I think tool's town, though, so this case better be good, SK.

[T S O]

idk. I have a feeling that the majority of Town's power has been used at this stage, so it doesn't seem to do much, but maybe.

[T S O]

idk about tool. you're right that his push was weak, bad, whatever, but I've played scum with tool before and when he interacts with you, he puts in effort. if him and Jargo were scumbuddies, meta tells me his reaction would be a lot more concerted. I don't really know his town meta, I guess.

Open 545, btw.

[T S O]

Didn't see the end of last page. I'll respond to Rubicon whenever I get back online. Busy day.

Oh, and I'm also debating whether or not I should vote Riptide. Partially because I'm kind of tired of their misrepresentative attacks on me, partially because it's the biggest wagon besides mine. Any thoughts? Would you call me out as scummy for being survivalistic, or are Town not allowed to want to avoid guaranteed mislynches?

Bye.

So you find Riptide scummy for their arguments against you? Isn't TSO making the same arguments?

Also, FYI that last Cho vote put her at L-1.

This supports Riptide being scum.

@tool
1. a. I responded to the part about weird play
b. I'm really not sure why having two confo townies on our wagon contributes to our being scum. Was actually gonna let dice take this one but w/e
2. I can't find it. Care to quote it?

I think this is what he's referring to:

I've been letting Gaiden do most of the interactions in this game since I wanted him to become a better player, but I will not tolerate downright VI activities coming from this hydra.

The end of 303 by Riptide is extremely town. Think about it. As scum, they'd be lying about having that conversation last night. Where is the from doing that?

I don't get it. Why wouldn't scum say that? It seems null to me.

Also, can we get a prod on Betting Pool? Or is it too early since we just started a new day?

I'd also like to see your readslists, tool.

For now, VOTE: Riptide based on Cho's case on him.

This looks like a bad bus.

TL;DR Think of B_E as a child and most things he does make a hell of a lot more sense.

That doesn't explain away all his behavior. I previously mentioned that he never went anywhere with his Riptide case, or even explained it. Why would a town BE do that?

This promotes BC-town.

[T S O]

Dice, thoughts on the above?

[T S O]

"based on Cho's case on him" is such an incredibly lazy way to vote someone. If someone blatantly sheeped a case, giving no additional reasoning whatsoever, I'd call them out on it. I think it's possible he subconsciously knew Riptide -wouldn't- call him out on it because they were scum together.

pedit: interesting theory. I'll think about the latter part.

[T S O]

lazy and antitown as it sounds, I really like tool and I'd love him to be Town, so I may be a little stubborn.

don't worry, though, I won't hesitate to give my vote if I think he's scum.

tool <3

[T S O]

What stage in the argument would you think tool realised they were being ignored?

[T S O]

WHY did you claim?

What the fuck?

[T S O]

Maybe Lucky had a point but you should have crumbed it or something!

Our protection in the JOAT is dead; now you eat the nightkill.

Mod: theoretically, if a Vig shoots and dies in the same night, does the kill go through?

[T S O]

ughhh

Mod: theoretically, if a Vig shoots and dies in the same night, would the kill still go through?

[T S O]

blegh.

I want to get some explanation off Egg for his weird shot but I genuinely don't think there's an actual reason I should apart from paranoia; he's as close to conftown as we're gonna get.

pedit: yeah, I guess, just feels like you're wasting your remaining shots.

[T S O]

Do you think there was scum on the B_E wagon?

[T S O]

In your experience, is that a real concern?

Getting an extra lynch in the form of a kill? Damn straight it's important.

[T S O]

Do you think there was scum on the B_E wagon?

Actually, everyone should answer this.

[T S O]

Or would you rather we elaborate on your textbook scum bandwagoning you have been doing all game?

- Dice

I would.

[T S O]

The pool of Riptide-SK-TBP definitely holds one scum. I don't have strong reads on any of them. Historically, that's indicative of them being scum.

[T S O]

Riptide is attacking TBP.
SK is attacking tool.
TBP is attacking nobody.

And I really should have a read on TBP by now if it's a hydra with penguin_alien.

[T S O]

oooh nice.

[T S O]

Apologies, guys, I've been away. Catching up.

[T S O]

In your experience, is that a real concern?

Getting an extra lynch in the form of a kill? Damn straight it's important.

You've actually been in a situation where a Vig getting killed negated their shot? And even if you had, why publicly ask the mod?

Um, no, I haven't. That's basically the point; I don't know. That's why I'm asking the mod, y'see.

Coming tomorrow, my recap. I so do not feel like Mafia at the moment but meh.

[T S O]

Hmm, I had Tool as mostly a townread before today.

I know you're Townreading tool now, but this implies something was changing your mind. What was it?

After reading ISO and with his most recent posts, I have a hard town read on Tool. His summary post feels very town, especially the vote.
I just don't totally see your case, SK. Tool did have a good portion of his interactions with Jargo, but I don't see scum doing that much focus on his buddy.

I would have to agree with the majority of this. The SK case isn't strong and tool's refutations of it are convincing.

I don't totally agree with SK's thoughts but I think they are coming from town, today anyways.

You do? I'm not that sure. His attack on tool is pretty bad but it's not misguided-town-tunnel bad. It's just pretty damn bad.

Riptide I just kinda there I find today. He's making excuses of "Oh I want to go talk to my head first" and "We're split on reads". It's like a hydra's version of being waffly on stuff.

If Riptide was scum, who would his partner be? Do you think Riptide has nothing to say or is deliberately trying to lurk?

My scumread on TBP is coming from the same thought. Also the support for the mass claim felt forced and there was nothing past the reason of confirming the scum killer. Also, their scum read on Tool feels like it was just a sheep of SK's attack. Why the early scumread on tool, TBP?

I'm not sure that scum would be sheeping SK's attack, though. It's not strong, it doesn't really have basis, and the way TBP did it was so lacklustre that it feels like scum-TBP would at least try a bit harder with it.

SK is quite stubborn and focusing very heavily on Tool, but this doesn't seem to be any different from his earlier play. He is more of just a residual scumread from before at this point.

What about his play from before makes you think he's scum?

TSO, I'm just not sure about. I don't see him going so hard on D1 at town as scum, but I don't really have a town read on him either. He's really on my list because I've being fence sitting on his read for a bit now.

This makes me a bit sad, to be honest.

[T S O]

There's a lot of stuff I'm not going to comment on. Tool-SK bores me to death, to be honest; I don't think I'm going to vote tool today ever.

I'm not scumreading TBP as strongly as Riptide/SK at the moment; he just feels like a mislynch. Not a scum-pushed mislynch, but a mislynch nonetheless.

Egg, you need to discuss your Vig shot with us. Who are you hitting?

[T S O]

Oh my god I've finally caught up, I've actually been dreading reading the thread because all I could see was walls ]:

[T S O]

I don't know, Riptide, it really takes it out of you when you're so sure someone is scum and then they flip Town. You have to go back, you have to re-analyse everything, absolutely everything, and all you see is constant reminders of you being wrong. I was incredibly sure of Cho-scum, and it was horrible seeing her flip Town, but the real kick came when, just as I began to settle on Burning_Earth, he flipped and I was wrong there as well. I'd love to get back into the game, but often I look at it and I just think, "Oh Jesus, this game, nope."

I do want to engage, though, I really genuinely do. It feels a bit like everyone has about one person they're talking to, but I have no-one, so it's hard to find a way back in. If people were to ask me questions, I'd probably find it easier.

As well as this, it feels like we're going through the motions because we basically have the game locked down - Egg's conftown, tool and BPC are very town, I know I'm town and people get that as well, so we're just deciding on who we lynch and who Egg kills tonight and barring unlikely circumstances, we can't lose.

PEdit: Do you guys have a QT where you post thoughts? It doesn't really feel like it.

[T S O]

What do you think about TBP's voting pattern?

They start off RVS voting Dunhamganger, which is fair enough, I guess.

The next vote is them moving onto the Cho wagon. I'm probably biased here but Cho was so scummy that it wasn't actually an outrageous thing to do. On the other hand, it did start the trend they've continued to set of jumping on big wagons.

Their next vote is, again, on Dunhamganger, The case on Dunham wasn't good and unlike the Cho vote, it has no prelude in terms of them interacting or commenting with Dunham. They just blatantly sheep BPC.

Then, when the counterwagon on Burning_Earth comes ...they conveniently move onto B_E. The way p_a shows their transition could be described as legit, but she's definitely good enough to fake it and it's still bad regardless.

They haven't voted today.

I'll admit, after reading that, I'm more convinced TBP is scum than beforehand. They haven't had a problem with any wagon at any stage in the game, at all. That does worry me.

Even with SK vs Tool argument being boring (I need to finish reading that), who do you feel has one that argument?

Oh, tool, definitely. I haven't even read them that well, to be quite honest, but I looked at some of tool's answers and they're solid. A lot of SK's case is highly subjective and open to interpretation/opinion, whereas tool's answers aren't.

If you had a day vig shot, who would you shoot right now and why?

Errrghh, this is a hard one. I would have said either you or Krew, with Krew probably just minimally more scummy than you, before this post, but now I'm not that confident that TBP is Town anymore. So, gun to my head... out of Krew/TBP, maaaybe Krew? (I'm glad I'm not a dayvig!)

[T S O]

Riptide is attacking TBP.
SK is attacking tool.
TBP is attacking nobody.

And I really should have a read on TBP by now if it's a hydra with penguin_alien.

I would be surprised if you did, for the most part it's been good old Lucky here. I know I can't live up to penguin's level of town play but you should be able to read me too. We've played a few games together and you were even scum with me in my very first scum game. We bussed the hell out of each other early in the game, unfortunately you replaced out, though we still won

Hey, Lucky, I didn't mean to diss you, you're a good player! And I remember that game, I went on a week's vacation, but I'm pretty sure Mutley pulled it out anyway.

Who is your top scumread?

[T S O]

Mmm, I guess you have a point there.

[T S O]

Wow, way behind here. I'll say again that I'll try to get my act in gear. The Beloved Princess interlude just killed my attention span. In the meantime:

Egg, given that you were confident enough in scum-Jargonaut to shoot, what connections do you see that are worth considering?

T S O, you want to figure out that I'm town, ask me some questions; I'll try to post more than every thirteen days here, yeesh.

--PA

Do you feel you can legitimately explain being on -every- wagon that has cropped up in the course of the game?
Do you feel scum have been pushing wagons this game? Or have they been staying back? Sheeping? What have they been doing?
What are your reads?
Who is your top scumread?
Why are you being so passive today when we're a day away from LyLo?
What is your opinion on tool vs SK?
Why are you so inactive?
Why is Lucky's activity simultaneously poor with yours?

[T S O]

I'm sorry if it seems like I'm being aggressive but your inactivity is inexcusable and it's sapping this game of its energy.

[T S O]

As am I; post tonight!

[T S O]

You'll all be happy to know I'm paranoid of like fucking everyone right now, and the less active you are, the more my suspicion grows.

Just saying!

[T S O]

Oh whoa the sites been up longer than I expected O.o I guess my phone was being weird yesterday.
For now I'm gonna make us

UNVOTE

1) because I decided TBP wasn't scum, and because the site crash made me extremely paranoid in the opposite way as TSO.

I don't know how we can be paranoid in opposite ways, but eh.

What changed your mind on T B P?

BC, come on!

[T S O]

if it's super lamist, great, but it still needs to be done.

em, I have nothing else to say. we need to do stuff so I can do other stuff.

[T S O]

Um, since when were you not waffly as all fuck?

[T S O]

I disagree with that - I'm not particularly townreading SK's slot and I'd like his slot to make some stances before night comes.

Though I agree that this game has gone to shit and productive discussion isn't gonna take place today. So meh. If there's no replacement in two days, I'll hammer.

[T S O]

Ultimately we have our lynch/vig/lynch, and if we can't hit scum in any of those we deserve to lose.

[T S O]

It sounds strange but omg I love my new avatar!

sorry.

[T S O]

shat you're right.

[T S O]

*headdesk*

[T S O]

Of course.

[T S O]

Open 526: Lock, Stock and Nine Smoking Barrels
Micro 312: 2014 Mafia
Mewbie 1491

[T S O]

Oooh, I forgot two of my favorites!

War in the Middle East
Fire Emblem: Awakening

[T S O]

He's softcrumbing that he's going to shoot you, Riptide, so if you're scum I'd highly advise counterclaiming now.

As in, NOW.

NOW.

[T S O]

It was a joke.

You didn't ask for the game I felt I was most aggressive in, by the way, but I'll give it to you because I'm fucking awesome.

The answer would be any of them, excluding the Mewbie. The difference is I trail off in my own uncertainty in some of them. This works occasionally (2014) but sometimes makes me punch myself postgame (Lock). My aggression didn't fade in Awakening and paid dirt, while I came late to the party in WitME but single-handedly was responsible for the scum lynch d1. I didn't link Red Wine, but my tunneling basically cost town the game there, so yeah.

Read Awakening and WitME if you're only reading 2, but ISO me in both because they're long, and Awakening even broke records for length.

[T S O]

I didn't really get the joke, as you can tell.

Bad joke TSO

Also

Which one of those would you say you had the most aggressive start?

- Dice

You're slippin' bro

What do you mean?

TSO said you didnt say what I quoted.

It sounds strange but omg I love my new avatar!

sorry.

Quick non-sequitur, I love your avatar too...

yes!

1. My most iffy read is TSO. I think he is town, but he has outbursts of things that set off my scumdar.

Such as what?

[T S O]

Hey tool, what exactly are your reads? They're not really that clear to me.

I'm making it as Egg --> BPC ---> TSO ---> TBP ---> SK ---> Riptide, from T-S, but you should correct this.

Also, I don't remember your meta argument. Link me.

[T S O]

ffery, I might talk to you in a bit to get a better read.

[T S O]

Your entry back into the game after the site returned and your flop of a joke about counter claiming.

...I'm not okay with this, I can vaguely see how certain aspects of my play could implicate me as scum but these don't feature.

What about my joke/entrance rang alarm bells, Lucky?

[T S O]

Also, I don't remember your meta argument. Link me.

I feel like I've done it a few times, but #319 seems to be the most complete version.

But doesn't this meta show that I tend to play aggressively as town, which matches up with this game?

[T S O]

ffery, what times are you usually on at?

[T S O]

Now's goodish. I tend to get slices of time for mafia throughout the day.

I'm procrastinating about more ISOs atm.

Who's your top scumread at present?

But doesn't this meta show that I tend to play aggressively as town, which matches up with this game?

...yes. That's what I've been saying.

Errr... right. I thought you were calling me scum for this.

[T S O]

oh 1436, that game.

I got lynched d1 essentially as a compromise.

[T S O]

555 makes me want to gamesolve with this player, based on the little bit of exposure I've had to BE's games.

Him explaining why he thought B_E was scum (wrong, as it happened) and also attacking your slot makes you want to gamesolve with him?

[T S O]

ughhh

Mod: theoretically, if a Vig shoots and dies in the same night, would the kill still go through?

I wanted to see if Egg would be able to kill no matter what, as opposed to dying without his shot going through.

I'm presuming this is what you mean by me asking about kill specifications.

[T S O]

it feels rather disjointed that I'm only now trying to place players into teams, where before I was essentially treating them as individual entities.

before I look at any teams I think it's only fair to admit that Riptide/TBP is my first pick. I'll try not to be biased, but no promises.

[T S O]

I was against the Vig claiming as I thought their kill was negated if they were killed on the same night.

[T S O]

I'm not including myself for obvious reasons and I think that unless his scumteam somehow broke the game a la EspeciallyTheLies/BROseidon, we can treat Egg as conftown also.

Now, to the pairings!

toolenduso - TBP
toolenduso - BC
toolenduso - ffery
toolenduso - Riptide
TBP - BC
TBP - ffery
TBP - Riptide
BC - ffery
BC - Riptide
ffery - Riptide

I'll probably do three or so tonight, if I can motivate myself to.

[T S O]

I'm not including myself for obvious reasons and I think that unless his scumteam somehow broke the game a la EspeciallyTheLies/BROseidon, we can treat Egg as conftown also.

Now, to the pairings!

toolenduso - TBP
toolenduso - BC
toolenduso - ffery
toolenduso - Riptide
TBP - BC
TBP - ffery
TBP - Riptide
BC - ffery
BC - Riptide
ffery - Riptide

I'll probably do three or so tonight, if I can motivate myself to.

You sound very sure you'll be around for day 5.

Of course I will, I'm Town.

[T S O]

I'm not including myself for obvious reasons and I think that unless his scumteam somehow broke the game a la EspeciallyTheLies/BROseidon, we can treat Egg as conftown also.

Now, to the pairings!

toolenduso - TBP
toolenduso - BC
toolenduso - ffery
toolenduso - Riptide
TBP - BC
TBP - ffery
TBP - Riptide
BC - ffery
BC - Riptide
ffery - Riptide

I'll probably do three or so tonight, if I can motivate myself to.

You sound very sure you'll be around for day 5.

Of course I will, I'm Town.

Pretty clearly you won't be the scumkill if you're town given the gamestate. You seem pretty confident that Egg won't kill you either.

I couldn't be the scumkill, because Egg is alive, and if Egg vigs me, he vigs me, that's up to him. I would personally vig Riptide/TBP ahead of me anyway, but I wouldn't blame him for picking me out of a 50/50 tonight. Today is a different scenario.

[T S O]

What if Egg vigs you, though? Huh? Never thought of that one, did you? Didn't think so!

...I got nothing

[T S O]

you're making it decently obvtown, though. I haven't really considered voting you today.

you're not tool/bpc level, but you're the next thing to it.

PEdit:

[T S O]

I'll reply to that tomorrow, ffery, but I have a lot to say in response to your post on me.

I'm honestly starting to want Riptide dead over TBP after re-reading a post of mine where Jargo-Rip interactions look forced.

[T S O]

I have no idea why Egg is still alive unless scum are expecting him to shoot wrong, but the BPC kill makes sense for Riptide-scum, at least.

I have too many townreads.

[T S O]

don't care, I can go now if you want.

popcorn to Riptide if I do.

[T S O]

1-shot PGO. Haven't used it yet.

Lemme go check my role PM for my name.

[T S O]

Aggressive Alarmist.

[T S O]

I'm not quite sure what you mean, Egg.

I have to activate it, if that's what active means.

[T S O]

Riptide.

[T S O]

Yeah, but they'd still feel a Vigilante is more dangerous than a Watcher, even if they knew both of BPC and Egg's roles.

[T S O]

it was 1:30 and I had athletics on in the morning. I was willing to hammer, but no-one was on to talk to me about a Riptide counterwagon, so I did nothing.

[T S O]

tbh I'm almost certain of Riptide-scum, I'm just not sure who the partner is.

[T S O]

Yes, and why would I? I was never really a target for a nightkill, despite being a continuous townread.

[T S O]

I was hoping Cho would flip scum and that I'd blow scum up with me n1, but her townflip scuppered that.

I think I crumbed it, hold on.

[T S O]

oh hi tool!

winning scumteam last game: you paranoid of me?

I did!

[T S O]

Yes, and why would I? I was never really a target for a
nightkill, despite being a continuous townread.

Why do you feel you were never a nightkill target? I assume what you mean as that you would never have been a kill priority.

What else would this possibly mean?

HS doesn't believe TSO's claim at all. I'm trying to reason out why he would claim it as scum.

Your good cop/bad cop bullshit is driving me crazy. HS has clearly decided I'm your mislynch of choice, so save me the 4 posts where he slowly "convinces" you I'm scum and get on with it. We're not having another stupid deadline lynch.

[T S O]

If it makes it easier for you to call me scum, I think you're scum as well. There's your justification. Now we dance.

[T S O]

Although I'd love to hear how HS can justify my crumb, which was made in the first page or two of the game. Either I was prepping a claim for no reason at all and it just so happened to fit perfectly with the set-up, which would require a ridiculous amount of luck ...or I'm Town. HS is clearly going for the former, so it's time for him to commit.

[T S O]

It makes more sense than tool/Riptide, but I'd be significantly more confident on Riptide than ffery.

I'll look back over them tonight and see if there's any links.

[T S O]

@T S O Here's how I "justify" your "crumb."-

You ask scum if they are paranoid of you.

How is that a crumb specifically for PGO? Because you used the word "paranoid"? It fits for any PR, if it can even be considered a crumb! A VT could say the exact same thing simply to mess with the scum team. And in a game with a Vig, a PGO is, from my POV, a safe claim. The Vig would be too scared to touch you, as would the scum team, which would perfectly justify you staying alive if you were a town leader.

-HS

His reply is obviously bullshit, but I think he just fucking slipped.

[T S O]

ugh I really want to talk to someone about the above but none of you are on!

[T S O]

I don't agree with you, tool. That question was very obviously directed towards you, not scum. I won't let you pass it off that easily.

[T S O]

re: Riptide bussing TSO - I think, with all due respect to Riptide, it would be the other way around, given a) the gamestate and b) my pride.

[T S O]

ugh I really want to talk to someone about the above but none of you are on!

I wanted to let Riptide respond/react to that without jostling the thread.

well, tool's done that now.

what do you think of tool's defence?

[T S O]

Then the question is how HS could somehow interpret that statement as me talking to {alivescum} as opposed to {tool}, and there's no way I can see he could.

It would also be nice if he'd reply himself, instead of letting you defend him, because irregardless of your alignment you have to do that.

ugh.

[T S O]

I somehow feel he -did- slip, but I don't think I can actually prove it.

[T S O]

look I'm gonna come out with it and admit I really wanted to include the Theory of Mind in my posts because it's really fucking interesting and sounds cool, as opposed to it having much relevance to Cho. I didn't push the ToM argument against her, and this is why I didn't, but I don't get the connection between a potential slip and ToM, ffery, so you'll have to explain it to me.

[T S O]

I can't prove it, so I guess I'll drop it.

Based on you and tool's reaction, though, I don't see you as a team, meaning Riptide has to be scum.

[T S O]

Exactly who are you scumreading, ffery?

[T S O]

Well, Riptide is scum, but we knew that already.

[T S O]

Vote: Riptide

[T S O]

...and? we lynch him today, we worry about his partner tomorrow.

unless you mean you don't think he's scum, in which case I'd ask you to look at how he's treating my claim. It literally did not change his viewpoint whatsoever. that's scum as fuck.

[T S O]

A) Unprovable

As usual, this is bullshit. The claim is very provable. It was crumbed and it makes perfect sense with the set-up, neither of which aligns with me fakeclaiming as scum. You've repeatedly skipped over this point because you don't have a response to it, other than vaguely saying it suits any claim, which everyone immediately shot down.

B) Guaranteed him a spot in LYLO if we would have lynched his partner

This isn't bullshit, it's just nonsense.

Plus, the Tool/SK argument made me completely sure on TSO's scum win condition, so the claim didn't really matter that much to me.

"I have no explanation for how his claim could be untrue, but it doesn't matter, I'm sure he's scum."

unless scum are crossvoting atm then the game is now within hammer's reach of scum. :/

...

From town-you point of view, this statement is impossible. If both Riptide, you, Egg and I are Town, there's not enough scum left, ffery. What's up with this?

[T S O]

yeah, but I knew Riptide was scum anyway.

[T S O]

There's literally no reason Egg should be scum except paranoia; I have seen this situation where he's scum once ever, or twice if it happened in Awakening. Anyway, why shoot Jargo if he was scum?

[T S O]

Awakening?

Fire Emblem:Awakening was a Large game where scum, as far as I remember, had a 1-shot vig. The player was Maestro, if you want to look it up.

[T S O]

Onsite I saw ETL and BROseidon break the set-up and ride to endgame where BRO used his Weak Neighbourize on scumbuddy ETL and died, she claimed Vig, game over, but I don't think that happened here. Though I'd guess scum have unflipped power, maybe a RC as ffery said.

[T S O]

how did you come to that conclusion regarding the rc, ffery?

[T S O]

so you don't think it was scum hoping Egg would misshoot and toss the game?

[T S O]

oh yeah.

[T S O]

It's so fucking obvious you're scum because you fail to realise that action gives you as Town a 50% lose chance. You can't even fake the Town mindset that's a minimum for good scumplay.

[T S O]

no, tool, he's just scum.

[T S O]

I wish people would realize how scummy it is when you piss off on me every few posts and have no backbone behind it, but continue to leave yourself on cruise control if you wish.

Quit your AtE, it's not going to work. I wanted to lynch you yesterday and I've said nothing but that today; backbone is one thing I don't lack. You're confirmed scum.

[T S O]

no, tool, he's just scum.

Can you explain why RipScum would post that?

Can you explain why RipTown would post that? Can you explain why RipTown would attempt to goad scum into voting him when literally everyone thinks he's scum and Town would then be a vote away from losing? He's barely even fighting his lynch, he hasn't posted in days.

[T S O]

But, obviously, tool? I know he's scum.

[T S O]

I really have no idea who his partner is and I don't particularly care at this juncture. I was thinking it was ffery originally because it felt like she was gearing up to attack me today but I don't really think so anymore. It's a bitch because I'm Townreading both you and her at this stage and I worry I'm gonna be mislynched tomorrow but eh.

Gun to my head, you.

Who do -you- think is Riptide's partner?

[T S O]

I wish people would realize how scummy it is when you piss off on me every few posts and have no backbone behind it, but continue to leave yourself on cruise control if you wish.

Quit your AtE, it's not going to work. I wanted to lynch you yesterday and I've said nothing but that today; backbone is one thing I don't lack. You're confirmed scum.

Quit your whining, that's not even AtE, and if you wanted to lynch me yesterday, you should have been more vocal, and not backed off, so you could let TBP be lynched first.

It clearly fucking is AtE, and I openly stated my preference yesterday in #884, so you're wrong here too.

No, I never said that. Hell, even at the end I said that I wish scum would vote me, so I can figure out the scum team and this game will be easier. I want whoever is town out of you to hold onto your vote.

You didn't say you wished scum would vote you, you said:

Actually, if Ffery or Tool thinks I'm scum,

one of them should vote me first

. If you vote me now, scum will most certainly quickhammer. If scum votes me now, then I have the scum team figured out.

Which says to me that you don't know which one of us is scum but you want one of us to vote you.

I guess I misread it/you worded it poorly, but the way you explained the post just makes me think now that it basically means nothing. Kind of like saying "I wish scum would just tell me who they are."

So that clears that up. As for your thing about how TSO's reaction makes him look scummy...you've been latching onto everything he's said since pretty much the beginning of D5 and it's clearly become confirmation bias, so it doesn't really sway me too much.

Same goes for TSO -- I feel like most of his posts today have been tunnelling on Rip.

TSO, I'd like to hear who you think is Rip's partner.

Rip -- do you still think you're going to post your ISO reads/thoughts on who TSO's partner is today?

The point of the post was to get Egg NOT to vote first. It was also sort of a way to goad scum into voting me, albeit not that effective when you have to explain it. I want to hope I'll get the ISOs done tonight, but given that I'm still really tired and it's not even 6 yet, I might have a hard time. I think HS is actually doing some work, so he might have something done sooner than me.

So, once my partner had voted you along with the nefarious me, what was your plan then? Wouldn't it make sense that you'd have content at the ready to convince the remaining Town players of your alignment? You don't seem to have much prepared.

no, tool, he's just scum.

Can you explain why RipScum would post that?

Can you explain why RipTown would post that? Can you explain why RipTown would attempt to goad scum into voting him when literally everyone thinks he's scum and Town would then be a vote away from losing? He's barely even fighting his lynch, he hasn't posted in days.

Duh because I'm town, and you can't see the situation because you're scum.

wow nice response, very convincing.

If the second scum votes me, then I won't be quicklynched. If I show everyone I'm town, and everyone sees that and lynches you, then the town wins the game. Also, you know I've been busy, but trying to bring up activity is weak as hell. Both scum and town in my position would want to be active.

This is wrong on multiple levels. Firstly, scum-you knows you're fucked. You're just putting up token resistance and probably trying not to give away meaningful associatives. Secondly, even if I -was- scum and got lynched, Town wouldn't win the game. They would have to successfully lynch my partner. So you're wrong yet again.

Ugh.

[T S O]

Didn't see the end of last page. I'll respond to Rubicon whenever I get back online. Busy day.

Oh, and I'm also debating whether or not I should vote Riptide. Partially because I'm kind of tired of their misrepresentative attacks on me, partially because it's the biggest wagon besides mine. Any thoughts? Would you call me out as scummy for being survivalistic, or are Town not allowed to want to avoid guaranteed mislynches?

Bye.

So you find Riptide scummy for their arguments against you? Isn't TSO making the same arguments?

This points so clearly to Riptide-scum it's a joke.

[T S O]

I know that Riptide is guaranteed scum, and as far as I can see, you lot can see it too. That's all I care about; there's no chance of mislynch, so it doesn't apply to me.

[T S O]

I know, from your point of view, they can never be guaranteed, as they are in mine, but they're close enough to it.

[T S O]

Ok, so now that we've established that everyone except Riptide thinks TSO is town... and scum have yet to quickhammer him...

Riptide absolutely has to be scum.

Am I wrong?

No.

[T S O]

Nope. Nope. Nopenopenope. Not happening. In Hunger Games, Kirby, ironically, was scum. I did things that could be seen as being scummy. Heused those and basically just brushed off everything I said with "You're scum so of course you'd say that." Kirby was scum. His only arguements were really "Well scum would obviously say that, he's flailing." I'm not gonna let this happen to me again. Parallelism FTW.

"I looked scummy there, and I look scummy here, but I was scum there and I'm not here, therefore TSO is scum!"

Aside from the fact you're confscum, you promised content and never delivered, you have significant associatives to Jargo which I lack, you've looked like scum all game, etc. etc. etc.

[T S O]

Didn't see the end of last page. I'll respond to Rubicon whenever I get back online. Busy day.

Oh, and I'm also debating whether or not I should vote Riptide. Partially because I'm kind of tired of their misrepresentative attacks on me, partially because it's the biggest wagon besides mine. Any thoughts? Would you call me out as scummy for being survivalistic, or are Town not allowed to want to avoid guaranteed mislynches?

Bye.

So you find Riptide scummy for their arguments against you? Isn't TSO making the same arguments?

Also, FYI that last Cho vote put her at L-1.

This supports Riptide being scum.

@tool
1. a. I responded to the part about weird play
b. I'm really not sure why having two confo townies on our wagon contributes to our being scum. Was actually gonna let dice take this one but w/e
2. I can't find it. Care to quote it?

I think this is what he's referring to:

I've been letting Gaiden do most of the interactions in this game since I wanted him to become a better player, but I will not tolerate downright VI activities coming from this hydra.

The end of 303 by Riptide is extremely town. Think about it. As scum, they'd be lying about having that conversation last night. Where is the from doing that?

I don't get it. Why wouldn't scum say that? It seems null to me.

Also, can we get a prod on Betting Pool? Or is it too early since we just started a new day?

I'd also like to see your readslists, tool.

For now, VOTE: Riptide based on Cho's case on him.

This looks like a bad bus.

TL;DR Think of B_E as a child and most things he does make a hell of a lot more sense.

That doesn't explain away all his behavior. I previously mentioned that he never went anywhere with his Riptide case, or even explained it. Why would a town BE do that?

This promotes BC-town.

[T S O]

Votes: I always use meta to refute meta, so here. Micro 312: 2014 Mafia. I died n2 and up to that stage I had voted exactly twice ...so town-TSO doesn't use his vote a huge amount, as you're trying to say I do.

Early death: It's pretty obvious why I didn't die early - n1, scum left me alive because they thought I'd be mislynched for being wrong on Cho. n2, Rubicon simply looked more town than I did. n3 and n4 are probably results of scum Cop because hitting 4 PR's in 4 nights is no coincidence.

If these tells are so weak, why can't you refute them, Dice-scum?

[T S O]

She's not "partly defending" you. What scum would notice that someone was being voted for something their buddy did and immediately call their own partner out? That associative alone should rule out me being scum.

The second is awkward as shit because he doesn't add any of his own reasoning to it and just sheeps the case so it doesn't feel like he actually suspects you, he just feels he should probably bus you.

[T S O]

Very well, a game where I do vote a lot as scum. Open 536: Faith Plus One

[T S O]

uggh I could keep responding but I'm so fucking sick of this. can someone please vote him?

[T S O]

if I'm so bloody brilliant as scum and I always leave down random crumbs for NO REASON then go get meta which shows me doing that! it doesn't exist! because your case is, word-for-word,

"TSO crumbed a random role which happened to fit with the set-up perfectly as scum and although meta shows TSO doesn't randomly crumb PR's in RVS as scum, he's clearly done it here, and you can tell he's done this because ...marmalade, phosphorus and photosynthesis!"

[T S O]

I feel the need to point out my mislynch was primarily idiot-driven and I had been putting in no effort that game.

justsaying

[T S O]

Well, I went back and re-read that game, and I now feel like throttling PinkMittens with my bare hands.

[T S O]

in other news, indecisiveness is out, decisiveness is in.

[T S O]

if you want to ask me questions, Egg, go ahead, but if not, just hammer Riptide so we can bring this fucker to LyLo.

[T S O]

bam refuted boom bitches

I have to admire your halfway house between "I don't want to give away associatives with my partner, I should be careful" and "maybe I should kinda put up a fight and maaaaybe somehow mislynch TSO", it takes patience - but it's not gonna work.

[T S O]

you're not really tooth-and-nail fighting, it's that simple.

If I was in your position, I'd KNOW that Town were going to lose on my lynch, and I would claw for my survival.

You barely even care. You feel obliged to object, but not strongly and not with passion.

[T S O]

As for the second half. Read the damn game. Do that much.

[T S O]

TSO is making me uncomfortable. I don't know much about how he usually plays, but I had a game with him a little while back where he used a similar sort of hyper aggression as scum. These posts in particular stand out to me:

Hang this, thanks.
When she flips scum I'm conftown, by the way.

Well, it's a textbook scum response, because it's really vague with no specifics, but its grandeur suggests I have been roaring to all the players since I came in about my incredible amount of

swagger

towniness. The only problem is I haven't.

VOTE: TSO. Why are you trying so hard to look town?

This looks like an early and weak by Jargo on TSO.
360 and 343 seem like weird pseudo-defense of TSO/Defending his TSO vote.

Now those are some pretty damn significant associative tells, aren't they.

no, they're rubbish.

[T S O]

I would refute them, but I've done that about 20. Bloody. Times.

[T S O]

She avoids hammering her scumbuddy?

[T S O]

I'm not sure I see the significance of that.

[T S O]

um, quit misrepping the situation and sit down. my trajectory can clearly show that I was scumreading Cho, then B_E, then TBP, then finally you at the end of d4. Not d2.

I've laid out my case why you're scum and I'm not refuting any more shit because I'm tired of this game. I have no idea why we're prolonging this lynch.

[T S O]

Your fakerage was going alright, but you elongated the 'u' too much. 5/10, needs work!