Mini 1524: Olympian Gods Mafia - Game Over

[Wisdom]

She's certainly gearing up for a Mala vote but isn't ready to commit because she wants to be able to judge the lifespan of that potential wagon. She is saddling her suspicions of Mala to keep her options open when the wagon on me inevitably fails. She wants it to fail so she can be absolved of switching to Mala closer to deadline.

Just read this. There is probably a term for this that I can't remember now, but she is speculating and she is providing reasoning for things that have not happened, as if she is in penguin's mind. And all that with zero interaction with penguin.

[Wisdom]

To confirm himself and mess with scum's minds? Throwing out claims is a sure for way to trick scum into suboptimal kill choices.

Bullshit. He basically told scum to kill someone else, who will most likely have a stronger power role than him. It makes zero sense as town.

[Wisdom]

Mala/Mirari/Matt.

Sorry mollie.

[Wisdom]

Because I actually want to work with her, but I need to know her thoughts before I go ahead and try to work with her and she flips out on me.

You need to work with her on what your alignment is?

And even if I bought that, why did you never proceed to work with her?

[Wisdom]

That's hilarious. Trying to discredit my read on you because I read you wrong in the past.

That's a complete misrep.
There have been people (like Mirari) who have said that your presence on penguin's wagon is good because you know how to read her. She was proving that point incorrect.

[Wisdom]

P-edit #3: WISDOM STOP TAKING MY THOUGHTS!

sorry, I'm trying not to butt in but can't help it

[Wisdom]

She's certainly gearing up for a Mala vote but isn't ready to commit because she wants to be able to judge the lifespan of that potential wagon. She is saddling her suspicions of Mala to keep her options open when the wagon on me inevitably fails. She wants it to fail so she can be absolved of switching to Mala closer to deadline.

Just read this. There is probably a term for this that I can't remember now, but she is speculating and she is providing reasoning for things that have not happened, as if she is in penguin's mind. And all that with zero interaction with penguin.

This has happened. Peng already stated willingness to vote Mala if my lynch doesn't go through (which it isnt).

Yes, THIS has happened. All your other overexplanation over why it happened hasn't. And it's scum that post those.

I don't see the point in trying to convince a scum it is scum. I'm interacting with you right now because I think you are town.

If you are town, you do not KNOW for a fact that penguin is scum. You want to interact with her to get more information and ensure that you are right. Your attitude has been "penguin is scum, we need to lynch her, I dont need to interact with her" and your statement here ("i dont see the point in interacting with scum") further confirms that. That's not a town mindset.

[Wisdom]

To confirm himself and mess with scum's minds? Throwing out claims is a sure for way to trick scum into suboptimal kill choices.

Bullshit. He basically told scum to kill someone else, who will most likely have a stronger power role than him. It makes zero sense as town.

If you are going with that logic it does. Matt might be egotistical and think his life is worth more than any other player in the game. Getting them to reevaluate a kill on potentially strong scumhunt Matt for a strong pr is indirectly town oriented.

Trying to get scum to kill other less desirable town is self explanatory town? He doesn't control the night kill and now psychologically has to influence the night kill. You answered your own question.

Nope. You are struggling to find town motivation in Matt's claim when there's none. Which makes no sense considering you displayed confidence in the claim coming from town.

[Wisdom]

fitz is town, btw. In case anyone wondered.


@Whiskers
agree/disagree with my points on Mirari?

[Wisdom]

I'm Apollo

Wasnt it clear that Matt was to favor claim first?

[Wisdom]

Day Neighborizer

So that's why you asked Mala whether she was already neighborized. You assumed Matt also works at day.

The weird thing is that Mala answered "I don't know" as opposed to "no", as if she also knew the neighborizers are supposed to work at day.

[Wisdom]

wtf?
Mirari did not suspect me, what OMGUS?

Read my actual points on her.

[Wisdom]

No?

[Wisdom]

Oh nvm, he did. Carry on.

[Wisdom]

I will care about such a thing when you actually flip. Since you are not being wagoned, that's unnatural to say now.
And no, you are struggling, because the reasons you are giving are bad and should at least make you question the claim as opposed to being confident it's town.

[Wisdom]

And despite me saying that no gods make sense for neighborizer, Apollo actually does - he is the god of music, so it makes sense that he attracts someone to a "neighborhood" using that.
Hephaestus however.. he is a blacksmith, he would make sense for an inventor or something. Not a neighborizer.

[Wisdom]

Ooba (and wisdom) I think you need to look at Matt as a player and see if this fits into his town profile. The claim should give you sole hints as to what I mean.

Have you played with town-Matt before?
I believe you said you haven't, so I don't understand this. How would you know if it fits into his "town profile"?

[Wisdom]

Just, like... people you disagree with become scum.

You are misunderstanding me, once again. I did not call her scum because she disagreed with me. I called her scum because of what she was posting, and I analyzed it right after that. Did you read it?

[Wisdom]

Is Hephaestus really known to be a talkative individual? I don't want to elaborate anymore on that part but don't just look at Matt's claim for face value.

Now that you started it, leave the hints aside and state your thoughts clearly.

[Wisdom]

Just, like... people you disagree with become scum.

You are misunderstanding me, once again. I did not call her scum because she disagreed with me. I called her scum because of what she was posting, and I analyzed it right after that. Did you read it?

Perhaps.
Maybe it's that you don't really look at a person, usually, until they do something to cross you.
Which is understandable. I guess it's just what I'm seeing looks badish.
Dont' worry too much about it.
Gtg take a final test.

Maybe so. But that's true for everyone, hence why scum buddy people.
Anyway, that's besides the point. I want you to look at what I pointed out about Mirari, because I think those are clear scumtells right there.

[Wisdom]

and goddess of the moon.

...which is what ooba said.

[Wisdom]

Is Hephaestus really known to be a talkative individual?

Actually I think I know what you mean - only this also makes more sense as scum than town.

[Wisdom]

k, if you're not going to do it, I will.

With "Hephaestus not being talkative" the thought that came to my mind is that he is a scum PGO, and he claimed out of nowhere so that he looks scummy enough that informative roles will target him.
But eh, he didn't really need to do that to get people on him so scratch that.

Also I realized that's probably not what you meant.

What you probably actually mean is that he is lying about his role, that he has a stronger role and by claiming this weak-ass role scum will not target him. It makes no sense however - Matt has high suspicion on him for being associated with Mala, who we are about to lynch. If he is town, there is no way scum will kill him when he is liable to be the next easy lynch. So it makes no sense for him to claim that out of nowhere since he was not going to die anyway.
What's actually important for you to understand here (if you are town), is that you are assuming Matt is lying. Lying comes from scum far more often than town. Therefore it makes no sense for you to assume that there is town motivation there based on something that comes from scum.

[Wisdom]

and goddess of the moon.

...which is what ooba said.

She's more associated with hunting however

That's irrelevant. He was showing the connection between Apollo(sun) and Artemis(moon) and how he was expecting them to be day and night neighborizers respectively.

[Wisdom]

Still, that assumes that he expected a scum PR or the scum kill to target him. Which makes no sense given how much suspicion he has on him.

What role do you think he has? You're not helping scum any less by hiding it now - they are not stupid.

[Wisdom]

I didn't know if I got neighboriZed

But there have been no nights yet...
Which means you assumed the neighborizer neighborizes at day.
How am I stretching?

[Wisdom]

Matt never said if he was a day or night. Whiskers asked me if I was and I replied idk because I didn't know. You're stretching trying to say I knew if it was day or night.

Since he didn't say day, the normal thing was to think night. You didn't, which suggests knowledge. I am not stretching anything.

[Wisdom]

Looking forward to your fakeclaim

[Wisdom]

[Wisdom]

Cmon, there's practically intent from penguin, go ahead.

[Wisdom]

Distancing from what? She clearly said she supports your lynch.

[Wisdom]

Then why are you faking a "good luck town" instead of pointing out that it isn't a hammer?

Someone hammer plz

[Wisdom]

Nah, your reads are ridiculous

[Wisdom]

UNVOTE:
VOTE: mirari

[Wisdom]

Cold feet
And I actually like your claim

[Wisdom]

Why are whiskers and desp in your scumpile?

[Wisdom]

Also, why is nacho town? Don't you think his Wking of you was weird? Do you disagree with what I've said about him in regards to how he is not pushing people like he should as town?

[Wisdom]

Was mala in any of those?

[Wisdom]

Wisdom, does your cold feet on Mala mean cold feet on me too?

No

[Wisdom]

Because she's scum?

[Wisdom]

She's more scummy

[Wisdom]

Btw Matt, how come you're now supporting a mala lynch?

[Wisdom]

So it was only the replacing out threat that kept you from scumreading her before?

[Wisdom]

@mala
Do you think a neighborizer fits hephaestus more than Apollo?

[Wisdom]

So it was only the replacing out threat that kept you from scumreading her before?

It was empathizing with her as a human being. On several counts. Would you like me to quote things? Her threatening to replace-out as scum is something that really pisses me off. We can discuss it endgame.

Not what I asked.

[Wisdom]

Grim, why unvote if you still think she's scum?

[Wisdom]

Maybe some help from someone else would be very helpful to me right now or else I have to get my result somewhere else, but I rather not.

Mala, what exactly did this mean and how is it a crumb for your role? I don't understand it.

[Wisdom]

If we assume Mala is town and her role is real, couldn't the neighborizers just no-action to make her life easy? I think that just makes it more likely that one of the neighborizers is scum, no?

[Wisdom]

Zeus threw him because he sided with hera in an argument (or in a variation, hera threw him because he was ugly)

[Wisdom]

Matt, how is your ability explained in flavor?

[Wisdom]

Not buying it

[Wisdom]

UNVOTE:
VOTE: matt

[Wisdom]

Yeah so it's still mala/matt and Matt is trying desperately to tie shos to mala

[Wisdom]

Or that's what he wants us to think so that we lynch mala

Which is why we lynch Matt

[Wisdom]

Those two quotes say the same thing, shos. What's your point?

[Wisdom]

If mala flips town, ill be greatly hesitant about lynching matt.

Why?

[Wisdom]

If we assume Mala is town and her role is real, couldn't the neighborizers just no-action to make her life easy? I think that just makes it more likely that one of the neighborizers is scum, no?

^shos

[Wisdom]

Or to word it differently, here is how I am thinking:

-If I don't accept there are two neighborizers, the one lying is Matt.
-If I do accept there are two neighborizers, one of them should be scum -> That one is Matt.
-If Mala flips town and her role is real, it's practically confirmed that one of them is scum since if they were both town they would make her very strong by not neighborizing anyone.
-Therefore, if Mala flips town, Matt being scum is even more likely than if she flips scum.
-The only actual case Matt is town is if Mala is scum lying about her role and both neighborizers are actually town.

Tell me where you disagree.

[Wisdom]

Pedit: Ooooh, you see I disagree at the part where when Mala claims this role the scum would obviously neighborize to make her role harder, because scum would definitely do that.

I don't understand how this is different than what I am saying.

[Wisdom]

Of course it would be a scum claim if they neighborized now that we learned about Mala's claim - but what I am discussing here is the setup in general. It makes sense to have a scum neighborizer who will neighborize someone not because he knows about Mala's role and wants to obscure her results, but for his own gains (i.e. manipulation). That in turn will obscure Mala's results.

So if Mala's role exists, one of the neighborizers is scum for this reason.

[Wisdom]

I'm not that scummy. The wagon grew because I was hunting my strongest scum read and not everyone agreed with it.

...really?
That alone makes me wanting to vote you again.
You do not realize you have been ultrascummy and you don't understand why you're being voted?
That's bullshit.

[Wisdom]

I don't really agree that there's two neighborizers however I dont like Whiskers due to the day thing over the night. it doesnt make sense at all to be delayed and his actions go through the day.

It also doesn't make any kind of sense to fakeclaim DAY neighborizer as scum.
It also doesn't make sense for Whiskers to be scum given how obvtown he is.
This is more bullshit.

[Wisdom]

Nvm, Matt is right.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Mala

[Wisdom]

I'll decide that later. Maybe you aren't.

[Wisdom]

Only if you are yourself will I be able to get an accurate read on you. Trying to be calm and rational isnt much different than trying to be townish as scum in the eyes of others.

(@Matt)

[Wisdom]

UNVOTE:
VOTE: mirari

I thought about it and I don't want mala lynched. Grim's role suggests that being neighborized is bad, which means there must be a role that is hindered by it. Mala's role fits.

[Wisdom]

Yup

[Wisdom]

Well, Matt's could be scum if any of them is.

[Wisdom]

I want to lynch mirari or nacho. If anyone disagrees with my points on them, I want to hear why.

[Wisdom]

Grim? Do you disagree with 1775?

[Wisdom]

shos see 1409 for my points on nacho

[Wisdom]

I'll make more specific cases for them in a bit.

[Wisdom]

Mala's claim is even more legit with a third neighborizer, shos. Why do you disagree?

[Wisdom]

Grim, Mala-scum wouldn't possibly know there are so many neighborizers. How did she think of this claim?

[Wisdom]

Also your claim

[Wisdom]

Yeah, I guess Matt's claim and your claim alone were enough to understand the setup is neighborhood based, so she could have thought of it as scum.

Shit, I don't know

[Wisdom]

Still, however, what I said before applies.
You are being protected from being neighborized for a reason. Because people being neighborized is bad for someone. Someone has a role that is negatively affected by the more people there are neighborized.
And Mala's role fits in that perfectly.

[Wisdom]

Claims so far so that we don't lose track:

MattP, Hephaestus, 2-shot Neighborizer
Grimgroove, ???, Virgin (Immune to being Neighborized)
Whiskers, Apollo, Day Neighborizer
Malakittens, Aphrodite, Delayed QT Cop (starts working on N2) + information that there are Lovers in the game
havingfitz, Hermes, Neighborizer

[Wisdom]

While Matt's does look the most fake, mainly because of the restriction, I do not understand why he would needlessly add that restriction if he is a scum neighborizer.

[Wisdom]

No, wait.
I just realized what's going on.
In flavor, the neighborization means making a lover pair with someone - that's why male gods are the neighborizers and that's why being a virgin prevents that.
It makes sense for Hephaestus' "neighborization" to be limited, since he is crippled.
And also, that makes me wonder if the "lovers" that Mala knows exist, are in fact this kind of lovers, and not the "Lover" role.

Mala, what exactly is said about Lovers?

[Wisdom]

My discovery was so big that the site went down


Yeah so anyway, I have been thinking, and we are definitely not lynching Mala. Consider the following two points;
1) We know there is a virgin who is immune to neighborization. Possibly, there are more roles that can dodge a neighborizing attempt somehow. If that is the case, it would not be that easy to put a lot of players in neighborhoods (especially considering that the neighborizers would have to target different people) - therefore Mala's role is not THAT useless. It might sound useless because of the three neighborizers but maybe it's not that easy to form neighborhoods.
2) Now that we all know about the neighborizing being a negative thing for town, and since the neighborizers are not compulsive, nobody is going to neighborize anyone. That means that Mala will be very useful N2 onwards. That also means that scum will have no choice but to kill her (I guess they could live her alive for WIFOM for one night, but then they won't be able to risk letting her get investigations in).

So all that remains is hearing what exactly is the case with the lovers.

Also, you might find me crazy, but I actually don't find the possibility all three neighborizers are town that unlikely.

[Wisdom]

in short: vote mala lol

No. We are not lynching Mala.

[Wisdom]

If there are three town neighborizors in this game I'm going to be sad.

You and Whiskers are town, I'm sure of it.

And Matt was very genuine with how he was trying to make me see my logic was faulty and everything, and so was his frustration when everyone was failing to realize they are not making sense. If someone is scum, it's him, but after that I don't think he is.

[Wisdom]

Tell me if there are any questions/disagreements with my theories etc, and then I will proceed to making cases on Mirari and Nacho, because that's who we should be lynching.

[Wisdom]

I don't see such a need.

[Wisdom]

We have enough information to realize Mala's claim is most likely legit AND that she is going to be useful. We are very simply NOT lynching her. Just like we wouldn't lynch someone who claimed Cop in a more regular setup.

[Wisdom]

Not necessarily. As I said, there might be more roles like Grim's and the neighborhoods might not be so easy to form. Not to mention neighborizers targeting the same players.

[Wisdom]

Spoiler: Why Mirari is scum

• First, let's remind everyone of 195. I didn't care much about it at the time, but it is a stupid, useless, filler question.
  
• 216 - "ooba votes are bad". The reason she gives for that in 302 is very weak - "i dont think he would be doing that as scum". That doesn't explain her confidence that ooba is so super town that nobody should be voting him. It looks awfully like buddying ooba, especially considering they know each other irl.
  
• 310 - she accuses shos of posting filler - what has she posted up to this point that is not filler? Looks hypocritical, and sheeping others on the big wagon.
  
• 699 - The aforementioned Mala fangirling, that came out of nowhere. She assumes that Mala is town, she assumes that Mala can read penguin like a book, and so she states that Mala scumreading penguin somehow strengthens the likelihood of penguin being scum. All that without having played with either, and without being able to know if Mala is town or not.
  
• 1303 and 1307 - More Mala WKing - "you are all crazy for thinking she is scum". Completely unwarranted given Mala's play.
  
• Some of the reads she gives in 1359 are very bad, especially her Nacho one.
  
• 1360 and 1363 - again taking Mala's side in the Mala-peng ordeal without any visible reason. Too much confidence that Mala has to be town and peng has to be scum that comes from nowhere.
  
• 1526 -
  and note that here start the stronger scumtells
  - she once again spams about us having to lynch penguin. Note that in all of her posts, there has been no attempts to try and interact with penguin, like a town player would do to ensure their read. She is just taking it for granted that penguin is scum (and that Mala is town) and never tries to reconsider or work with penguin or work with anyone else (not even ooba) to see if she could be wrong in her reads. I'll also point out her "I think both neighborizers are town", which I found weird at the time that we didn't know much yet and it seemed weird to believe such a thing.
  
• In 1531 she claims she is "pushing" penguin, while all she has done is vote her and state that she wants her to be lynched. And before Whiskers or someone comes here and says "but that's a push Wisdom", no it isn't. I was telling her that she is tunneling on penguin and in response to that, she said that she is not tunneling but actually pushing her.
  
• 1540.
  The most important scumtell for Mirari.
  She is overexplaining what penguin's motivation is behind her stating that she is willing to lynch Mala. This thing does not come from town. This thing comes from scum who wants to manipulate people. It's really typical, it's exactly how scum go about manipulating. I don't know how else to describe it, she is giving fake reasons for why penguin did what she did.
  
• 1557 - "I don't need to interact with scum, they are scum". This further shows how her mindset is not a town one. She is convinced that penguin is scum and does not care to interact with her at all, she even admits so. I am one of the worst tunnelers in existence but never, and I mean NEVER, will I stop interacting with the person I am tunneling on, even if it is to tell them "you are obvscum, just die" and see their reaction. Not caring to do such a thing is absolutely a scum trait.
  
• Her defense of the Matt claim is very very weird. She struggles to find arguments to show why it could come from town and she does not want to consider that it could come from scum. In the end she even states that Matt could be lying about his role and have a stronger role - and despite that she finds the lying coming from town rather than scum. It doesn't make sense.

[Wisdom]

Regarding Nacho, I was going to link to all 10 (TEN, not one or two) games I have with town-Nacho and show you that in ALL of them he was scumhunting, hard-pushing his suspects, constantly asking questions, getting engaged in the game etc etc etc. The only game where he didn't do those and he was just trolling and sheeping people, was the one game I have with scum-Nacho.

So once again, see my 1409 regarding Nacho. The most he has done in this game is defend Mala, to a way unnatural extent. This is not town-Nacho.

[Wisdom]

I was going to link to all 10 (TEN, not one or two) games I have with town-Nacho and show you that in ALL of them he was scumhunting, hard-pushing his suspects, constantly asking questions, getting engaged in the game etc etc etc

(I didn't finish the sentence)
I was going to do that, but I realize it's pointless. Just take my word for it, or, if you don't trust me, I can link them all to you.

[Wisdom]

mala's role is fake and was fakeclaimed cuz of the claims she already knew it doedsn't make sense

Dude I don't want to sound offensive but I might do.
I know you have a brain. Read everything I posted, and there's no way you won't see that her claim makes total sense with the setup.

[Wisdom]

So what should happen is that all of you should stop thinking about all this setup thing, leave it aside, read my case on Mirari, and tell me how she could possibly be town. If you can't tell me that, I won't accept you not to sheep me on her.

[Wisdom]

Your excuses are bad. Ipad or not, your play would not be this different.

[Wisdom]

Why are you even commenting on outdated things?

[Wisdom]

But since you did, your defence once again is awful and shows no intent to recconsider your read, not even a little. More proof that you're scum.

[Wisdom]

lol

[Wisdom]

My case was not awful. Town-you would at least consider it before shooting it down like that.

[Wisdom]

I addressed everything, you didn't care. It's a lie that you considered anything.

[Wisdom]

How about you actually catch up?

[Wisdom]

Because I liked his catchup. Vibes. Remember how I said the same in chain of command?
And you'll find another reason he's town in a few posts anyway

[Wisdom]

All I know is you did fuckall there and you're doing fuckall now.

Also you're being way too defensive; usually you don't care about my accusations on you at all.

[Wisdom]

. It does make sense for scum to have a neighborizer since its a good way to reduce the pool of innocents

They can't do it now without claiming scum
And before knowing what mala is they wouldn't be doing it for any different reason than town ones would
So there doesn't necessarily have to be a scum neighborizer

[Wisdom]

Yeah but in that case town would have no reason to no-action

Matt explained it better than me

[Wisdom]

Anyway you apparently agree that all claims so far are town.

Thoughts on my mirari case?

[Wisdom]

Not mollie, mirari.

[Wisdom]

town, why continue to push like that even when shes not getting lynched anymore

[Wisdom]

Sup

[Wisdom]

Leave penguin alone and vote mirari

[Wisdom]

That was whiskers
But yeah she's town

[Wisdom]

shos, you say mala has not interacted with penguin. What do you have to say in mirari's case, who interacted even less with penguin yet is even more confident than mala was?

[Wisdom]

For her to be useful we need to lynch the scummy neighborizer though, because he can ruin the usefulness by neighborizing people against town's will.
And I still stand by my belief there is just no way there are three town neighbourizers.

He can't without claiming scum.
Explain your belief. They can and most likely are all town.

[Wisdom]

I already did

[Wisdom]

There is no reason for a scum neighborizer to exist, plain and simple. Why assume there must be one?

[Wisdom]

Dude scum will have to kill her, can't risk her catching them

[Wisdom]

shos and grim are returning to my scumpile btw, both for failing to be logical and ignoring mirari

[Wisdom]

Esp. Grim though

[Wisdom]

Miraru can be scum but i hav much more evidencev mala.

For the last time.
Mala's claim is legit. We are not lynching her. If you think mirari is scum, vote her.

[Wisdom]

Grim, you just described why a scum neighborizer could be used in a game.

What I want you to explain to me is why 2 town 1 scum is more likely than 3 town in this game.

[Wisdom]

Only your "thirdly" is an answer.
To which I'll tell you - what difference does it make action-wise if the third neighborizer is town or scum? Still three anti-town actions.

[Wisdom]

Because 1)my question is about the setup and 2) I think that Matt is town even if I disregard the claim for reasons I mentioned earlier.

[Wisdom]

Only your "thirdly" is an answer.
To which I'll tell you - what difference does it make action-wise if the third neighborizer is town or scum? Still three anti-town actions.

And to reply to this in a more factual fashion: imagine a world where none of these claims had occurred.

We'd have 3 neighborization attempts, regardless of whether the third one is town or scum. Which is my point.

[Wisdom]

Scum might have other powers we are not thinking of now. The point is they don't necessarily need a neighborizer so assuming one of them must be scum is faulty logic.

[Wisdom]

And when setup sspec can't help you without resorting to faulty logic, you leave it aside and scumhunt. It's not like there are no ultra scummy people. Where do you disagree with my case on mirari?

[Wisdom]

Yeah because neighborizers that ruin a single person's job is so powerful. It's not like we are killing each other. Not to mention it cam be broken easily when neighborizers start claiming.

[Wisdom]

You're serious about being neighborizer too? Flavor?

[Wisdom]

Well go and see it when you can

Also what kind of neighborizer? Any limits?

[Wisdom]

Btw we have like the half playerlist claimed by now. Maybe we should just massclaim, partial claims like this only help scum.

[Wisdom]

So you neighborize at day?

[Wisdom]

Nothing would change.

Can we now stop the setup spec and talk about mirari?

[Wisdom]

Dude. Which part of there being roles immune to digitization proves that there is a role that works better with less neighborizations do you fail to understand?

[Wisdom]

neighborization*

[Wisdom]

IF THERE IS A COP THAT CAN ONLY COP TOWN ON ONE PLAYER AND ALL OTHERS ARE MILLERS OR SCUM AND NOBODY KNOWS THAT IT IS FUCKIN NOT MAKING ANT KINDOFCSENSE

IM DRUNK AND IT STILL MAKES NO SENSE AT ALL.

You don't know that it is only one player who is immune. Maybe there are more players with roles like Grim's.
Also neighborizers could have targetted the same people, making the neighborized people less.
It's not as useless as it sounds.

Also I explained that twice already, and it's painful to have to repeat it.

[Wisdom]

The only person I'd be willing to move my vote to that is not part of this neighborizing shitfest is mollie.

I'll look at your Mirari-case tomorrow Wisdom. Too tired now. But I don't like the way it started, and I'll tell you right now I'm not expecting much of it.

Just don't have a mindset of "this will probably be some more Wisdom bullshit" and look at it as a normal case, and we'll be good.

[Wisdom]

Can we agree to stop the setup spec until we have a full massclaim on a later day?

[Wisdom]

mirari possible scum bu t eill have to reexamine,

do that

[Wisdom]

Matt, no other comments?

[Wisdom]

Mala did you read my mirari case? Tell me where you disagree and stop your "everyone is town". Everyone in {mirari, mollie, nacho, Matt} has good chances of being scum so stop blindly townreading them for silly reasons.
whiskers is town and shos is too most likely.

[Wisdom]

I was just frustrated because they weren't listening. I dont think they are scum.

Why is mirari leaning town? Where do you disagree with my case?

[Wisdom]

Also do you disagree that both nacho and mollie are very underwhelming and do not look like their usual town selves this game?

[Wisdom]

I said why I'm townreading him in 1409. Why do you disagree?
Also why would he claim what he claimed at the time he did as scum?

[Wisdom]

bai mollie

[Wisdom]

Wisdom, I want your views on this reply by Malakittens.
Keep in mind that earlier, right afgter I had claimed Virgin, she asked me how far this virginhood extended. When I asked her why, she claimed to have a theory.
And now she gives me this.

She thought there are lovers as in the role Lover.
Did you read my post where I explained what the flavor is?
The neighborizers (male gods) make "lover"(not the role) pairs with who they neighborize.
Aphrodite, as the goddess of love, can check what the pairs are (hence QT cop).
It makes perfect sense.

[Wisdom]

I find anyone who doesn't want MattP lynched right now weird.

Why?
What is so scummy about Matt?
His restriction makes perfect sense with his flavor (Hephaestus is crippled), his claim came out of nowhere with no visible scum motivation, we know it's not a fakeclaim as two more neighborizers claimed (plus your and Mala's claim), so?
Is your only reason the stubborn belief that there must be a scum in the neighborizers?

[Wisdom]

As part of your case also revolves around MattP's scummy claim, please consider voting him as a form of middle ground.

I don't understand this. I find how Mirari handled the Matt claim very scummy, that doesn't mean I find the Matt claim scummy. Not anymore, anyway. So I don't understand why you'd expect me to use this as a "middle ground".

You basically shrugged off my case, which I find sad. No, there's no way this is "lazy town". This is scum.

[Wisdom]

looking at possible motivations for actions and picking out what seems to be the most likely one to you.

Just no. Go and read what she posted again. That is a clear attempt at manipulation, not a "possible motivation for penguin's action". She stated that that's what it is and it's final, she's trying to make others sheep her belief. This cannot come from town, there is no fucking way.

[Wisdom]

You can't believe how inclined I was to use a profanity against you upon reading this.

You can't believe how inclined I am to punch a wall upon reading the majority of posts in this game. But I'm trying my best to hold back.

[Wisdom]

looking at possible motivations for actions and picking out what seems to be the most likely one to you.

Just no. Go and read what she posted again. That is a clear attempt at manipulation, not a "possible motivation for penguin's action". She stated that that's what it is and it's final, she's trying to make others sheep her belief. This cannot come from town, there is no fucking way.

Yet you are doing the exact same thing right here.

...seriously?
How is that the exact same thing?


A: penguin: I support a Mala lynch, but I prefer Mirari right now.
B: Mirari: omg she is scum who doesn't want to commit to the Mala wagon so obvscum
C: Wisdom: What Mirari did comes from scum because town don't think that way.

How the hell is B and C the same? I am judging an action in context with everything else Mirari has done and the way it was worded. There is no way that is a town thought process there. Can you say the same about Mirari? Had penguin not made it clear that Mala is in her interests? Had penguin not made it clear that she scumreads Mirari more? Why would town not consider the possibility penguin is just town who wants to support her higher scumread's lynch more than her lower scumread's?

[Wisdom]

Also answer 1982. 1984 is not an answer.

[Wisdom]

No, ooba, you are wrong. And not just on Mirari. Your lynchpool is 4 townies.

[Wisdom]

In 1960 penguin is basically denying to ever have scumread Malakittens

Dude for real?
Why are you misrepping? That's not what penguin is saying at all. In fact she is saying the opposite - Mala said "you are back to townreading me?" and penguin said "back to? When did I townread you?"

[Wisdom]

Also there's no wishy-washiness in the other posts either. In 992 she clearly quotes a Mala post and says "this is not town". That's a clear scumtell.
As for 1486 (which is the post that Mirari referred to), she said that she would support a Mala lynch but she'd still prefer Mirari. Tons of townies say such a thing. Priorities. Primary scumread and compromise scumread. Besides, why did she have to vote Mala at that moment? She was at L-2 and we still had 2 weeks left. There are tons of town motivation to do what penguin did. There is no excuse for Mirari not considering that at all.

[Wisdom]

That's a clear scumtell.

scumread*

[Wisdom]

Oh I thought you said she was wishy-washy in all three posts.

[Wisdom]

I called both of them town easily too. That's because they are both relatively easy players to read.

[Wisdom]

This is the list that contains most (if not all) scum: {Mirari, mollie, Nacho, Matt}.
You have 2 of these in your townpile and two in your null. You need to reconsider.

Why are you townreading mollie?

[Wisdom]

Why are you townreading her for that?

[Wisdom]

Why are you townreading her for that?

It didnt look fake-able. Scum mollie wouldn't have reacted like that.

How much do you know scum-mollie? I've seen her doing similar things.

[Wisdom]

2. Did you not see my explanation for why posting pictures is not scum ooba play? I'll quote here since the post is long.

Yes, I saw it. Posting pictures is null and it is completely unwarranted for you to become convinced ooba is town just from that. Which you did when you started saying that ooba votes are bad. It's one thing to say "I think ooba might be town because pictures" and another to say "Stop voting ooba, they are bad votes, vote x person instead". The former is giving your opinion, the latter is unreasonable WKing on ooba and trying to manipulate others.

3. Shos's posts up to that point were catchup. He was commenting on things that had already happened and had mostly been discussed. That is why I called them filler. I find it odd how you discount my own posts as filler when I had pushed Whiskers and then moved onto voting Shos, which shows independent thinking and not sheeping or filler. I may have been too disparaging against Shos but you are wrong about my early game being filler.

It was quite clear that shos was posting as he was catching up, not able to know if what he is posting has been said later. That is not filler. Also, your "arguments" against Whiskers were not arguments. You quoted an RVS post that was completely null and called it "contrived". That's not content. And all your other posts hardly had any content.

4. I explained this in 1360. Do you not agree with my analogy? I may have been swept up by Mala's conviction but I have been transparent completely with my read on Mala.

How have you been transparent? It came out of nowhere and you only explained it in 1360 after people had already criticized you for not explaining it. And I don't buy your "conviction" bullshit. Scum that play properly have as much conviction as town, there is no excuse for you to townread Mala based on that or assume that because she says peng is scum, that's the case.

5. I don't think so. Given that everyone considers Mala town after her claim, well except for crazies like Shos, I don't think you can use this point against me. Not everyone views the game as you do. We all bring our own personalities, our own histories, our own experience. That is what makes the game diverse. You are trying to force everyone into a cookie cutter mold of how scum play.

Those posts were before her claim. So nope, no excuse. Mala was objectively ultrascummy and townreading her like you did, without any doubt, any intent to reconsider, is not what any town would ever do.

6. Without any visible reason? Are you reading the posts you are linking? I gave my reasoning there.

If your reasoning is "conviction", like I said I don't buy it. It's just a weak excuse.

7. It is "weird" to believe such a thing. In your opinion. Like I said, you are trying to fit my play into a cookie cutter mold. Given the information at that time, I thought it was true. I would like to clarify this further. When I made that post, I was thinking Matt was not a neighborizer and was lying. The statement about this game being information based was me speculating about the game.

Like I told you at the time, there's no way a townie thinks someone is lying yet they don't consider the possibility he might be scum. Lying mainly comes from scum.

8. What is pushing? I called her posts filler and I along with others I believe noted that she was avoiding this game early on in favor of others. How would I interact with that? By pushing her with my vote. It is called pressure.

You didn't interact with her. You don't care what she has to say to you. You don't care that you might be wrong. You don't consider such a possibility! Town don't fucking do that. Unless you are a daycop with a guilty on her, you don't do that. You interact until you are completely sure.

9. No, that is my opinion of her play and her plan to vote Mala. Why are you accusing me of something you yourself are doing? In this very "case" post that you made.

Like I explained to Grim, what I am doing cannot be compared to what you did, which was a clear scumtell. But lol at you rehashing his bullshit.
And no, that was not an opinion, that was manipulation. The tone and the wording you use matters. It's different to say "I think she might be doing X" and different to say "She is doing X, period. She is scum."

10. I am very convinced that penguin is scum because I believe strongly in my town reads and we can PoE this game. I will say right now that I am weakening on Nacho. I could do a Desp vote too, I guess, but he soft claimed something.

So now suddenly it's PoE
Complete bullshit.

[Wisdom]

Wow, both you and Wisdom really want to invalidate ooba and I's playing history and meta expertise of each other.

ooba, please dude. Listen to me. These stuff is what scum say to buddy their friends. There's no mistaking it.

[Wisdom]

"Useful":
Desperado

I could do a Desp vote too, I guess, but he soft claimed something.

wtf is this? Desp has claimed nothing other than what God he is.

[Wisdom]

No, it's opinion. Grounded in fact and many, many face to face games with ooba.

face to face is totally different and means nothing here.

That's exactly why it is filler. Commenting on happenings just to comment on them. He could read ahead to see which things were not touched on and make that his catch up but he didn't.

Nope. Lots of people do that. It's playstyle and has no bearing on alignment. Some people read everything then comment, some people comment as they go.

That is your opinion but I think my read was warranted based on everything that happened in this game, penguin's absence, and seeing Mala and penguin in a hydra together. I can see I need to clarify this more. Mala and penguin obviously are friends of some sort. Why else would they subject themselves to playing under a single account together? Instead of penguin and Mala actively trying to work together as friends because 1) they want to have fun, 2) because they are already playing together, and 3) would know each other better than average, penguin takes a while to come to this thread and doesn't really engage Mala.

People hydra for no reason around here. There are people who have over 10 hydras. It doesn't mean they are such good friends or that they can read each other perfectly. In fact, many times people hydra because they want to learn how to read each other better.

I hope you reconsider this dogmatic opinion of yours in future games. I have a feeling you won't. I am happy to be the one who broke your rule.

No I won't because there's nothing to reconsider. Scum have sticky reads and don't care to re-evaluate them and see if they are wrong. Town have to do that all the time because there's lack of knowledge that builds up paranoia. Lack of even a little paranoia and complete confidence simply don't come from town.

But it does come from town, as you've just admitted. You are only viewing his actions as coming from scum. We are clearly taking the opposite stance on Matt's claim. How are we so different?

Completely missing the point. There was a claim, people were arguing whether it comes from town or scum. You (once again) were completely confident it comes from town, and your reasons were based on something that scum do. Makes no sense.

I do care that I might be wrong but it is Day 1. Caring that you might be wrong is more important later. I think I am more than likely right.

No, you don't. When you posted your tunnely "let's lynch penguin" posts and you stopped interacting with her we still had 2 weeks left. If you have 2 weeks left in which you can figure out more and see if you are right or wrong in your reads you do that. You don't push a lynch. Unless you have solid evidence that you are right, which you didn't and don't.

That's not manipulation if it so obvious. Manipulation is much more subtle. I don't see the difference of "I think she might be doing this" and "She is doing this". It is obvious that is my opinion so prefacing any statements I make with "I think" is redundant.

Manipulation is not necessarily subtle. People seeing someone giving a confident statement are affected by it and come to reconsider their own views on what was said. And confidence will help persuade them to actually agree with your thoughts. Saying "I think she might be doing this" will get you far less supporters than a confident statement of "She is doing this". Which is why scum use the latter.

[Wisdom]

I don't disagree that more time is not always useful. But when you have not interacted with penguin at all and you have the time to do it, why not do it?

Penguin is actually reconsidering her reads, like the mala one, so what's your point?

Mala had been so scummy that I understand it that people don't want to believe her claim. But it makes sense with my flavor explanation and everything, so they'll realise they're wrong when they actually read properly.

[Wisdom]

No, it wasn't. She could have made it up after seeing the other three claims.

[Wisdom]

I did that with Whiskers.

nope

[Wisdom]

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Nacho

[Wisdom]

Yeah, no. First you agreed, now I'm ridiculous again. Die.

[Wisdom]

And?

[Wisdom]

How was she town?

[Wisdom]

shos and grim are returning to my scumpile btw, both for failing to be logical and ignoring mirari

Why did you think Grim was scummy here again?

I didnt, I was just frustrated

[Wisdom]

And two of those three are delayed neighborizers. And the third is one shot. So...?

None is delayed. They neighborize on N1 but the neighborhood forms at the end so they don't talk on N1. That's not delayed.
Matt is two-shot.

[Wisdom]

When people make sense, I don't mind. Grim and shos were failing to comprehend how Mala's claim makes sense. And shos apparently still does.

[Wisdom]

Well, for me he is. 2/2 so far.

[Wisdom]

Yay for incoming penguin mislynch

[Wisdom]

I'm not entirely buying into Wisdom's neighbor/lover theory.

?
I think it's obvious that's how it is

[Wisdom]

Whiskers you're outdated (see mirari? Many people do it)

[Wisdom]

I never said that they can't neighborize male gods, and I never said ALL male gods are.

[Wisdom]

As far as neighborizers go, what about having them neighborize one another?

They can just not neighborize at all?

[Wisdom]

Then I don't understand your theory or how it's anything more than pointing out that the claimed neighborizers all have male gods for flavor.

The neighborizing is making a "lover" pair (not the role). That's what mala knew about and that's why she can check for neighborhoods (goddess of love)

[Wisdom]

There are no lovers, whiskers. Please catch up first.

[Wisdom]

They are not the role "lovers". It's just the way of "neighborization". That's why the virgin is immune.

[Wisdom]

Fair enough. Mostly, I'm just saying that "lynch all liars" probably isn't a good way to deal with things, especially since the argument was "he's lying to protect a strong townrole," and

especially

because we've come to the conclusion that he probably wasn't lying at all.

I'm tired of your bullshit. Read before posting. My whole point was how mirari was weirdly confident in mattclaim being town yet her best reason was something that can easily come from scum. And despite that, she didn't reconsider even a little.
Stop fucking misrepping me.

[Wisdom]

Btw you technically lied about your claim. Now that there are 2 night neighborizers and your claim is the odd one out, you switched to "no I'm a night one too I just create daytalk". Why didn't you clarify that at first?

[Wisdom]

ika hi. Get an avatar.

[Wisdom]

Btw people are forgetting mala can't cop on n1.

[Wisdom]

Day Neighborizer

So that's why you asked Mala whether she was already neighborized. You assumed Matt also works at day.

The weird thing is that Mala answered "I don't know" as opposed to "no", as if she also knew the neighborizers are supposed to work at day.

Exactly. Or, I'm not sure if that's what it is "As if," but it certainly was a weird way to answer it. If you have been Neighborized-- that's fairly straightforward.

Wait... here you agreed that you neighborize at day.
So how come you say you neighborize at night now?

[Wisdom]

I don't think I believe you. Who forgets their role like that?

[Wisdom]

I don't know, what I'm saying is that he changed his claim to match the two others now.

[Wisdom]

I don't think I believe you. Who forgets their role like that?

Idk.
Lynch me for it.

Actually, let me rephrase that: the problem is arising from what I meant being different from what you

thought

I meant. Whether or not I forgot, doesn't matter. If I had remembered, I would have said the same thing.

That's bullshit. You had clearly said you neighborize at day.

[Wisdom]

-You asked mala if she had already be neighborized. That meant you assumed Matt neighborizers at day, which in turn means you thought YOU neighborize at day.
-You didn't correct me when I stated the above, and instead said "exactly".
-You didn't correct ooba when he said to use your day-shot on him if you haven't used it yet.
-You didn't correct mala when she told you "don't do it yet" (in regards to neighborizing ooba).

All these don't make sense if you thought you neighborize at night.

[Wisdom]

UNVOTE:
VOTE: whiskers

shos I'd tell you to stop being braindead once again, but I'm apparently talking to a wall. Or to scum.

[Wisdom]

Desp why is your vote still on mala?

[Wisdom]

Mala isn't scum, so

[Wisdom]

Matt/Mala/Mirari seems like a fine scumteam to me.

I'm calling a Mala/Matt/someone who hasn't claimed yet scumteam.

probably mollie or mirari.

Definitely at least one scum in these two.

[Wisdom]

Matt/Mala/Mirari seems like a fine scumteam to me.

what happened to your mollie scumread?

[Wisdom]

And why did she replace mollie instead of someone else?

[Wisdom]

Yeah right.

Whiskers/Desp/nacho

[Wisdom]

I buy the stupidity from shos but not from you. There's absolutely zero doubt mala is town now yet you keep acting retarded about it and even replaced mollie instead of her.

[Wisdom]

Many? It's just you and desp. There is no doubt.

[Wisdom]

, and even with the confusion with the claim

What confusion? He lied about his role and now conveniently changed it.

[Wisdom]

we disagreed. it's that simple, and doesn't make us stupid, or scum

It does. There's no way you can't understand that the setup points to a role like mala's existing or how the flavor further confirms it. There is absolutely no chance mala is scum, so still pushing that is either stupid or scum acting stupid.