Mini 1397: War is Hell (Game Over)

[PeregrineV]

Bam!

Are we going to try and do this calmly, or just blast the shit out of each other?

[PeregrineV]

I bear gifts!

Don't know if this works because my connection is being etc. Let me know if it doesn't work and I'll pester Flay/Feysal for another version.

But if it does, it's the collected archive of

more pansy angels being whiny and not killing people nearly fast enough wtf why is this 200+ pages

War in Heaven 3. Credit goes to Feysal, s-lullaby and yours truly.

http://www.mediafire.com/?abeqx9yyaokuq82

Thanks Tierce. I was actually trying to find post ???? and was sad that it was missing, but I have a copy of it now.

[PeregrineV]

@quadz(22)- Since the scum are angels, I'm guessing they have a crapton more hp, or maybe heal/regen at a higher rate. They could also have Rage, but since every demon has it then not sure how they would gain any role advantage other than their secret coordination.

Matt(29)- How do you not get rage? It's rule C, it's in the sample PM, and it should have a big section in your PM.

OK, all caught up.

HEAL: Kinetic

Up for pseudo voting. Also up for terminating insenate players, since doing so last game would have been a quick and easy town win.

[PeregrineV]

Thinking about it, we kind of are on a time limit here. If rage accumulates at random intervals, then whenever X time passes, the scum group can just all rage-dump and kill someone. We...might be able to catch them doing that, especially if we follow the "town claim whenever we use rage" rule, but it's dodgy; I think time is not on our side here in this game. We don't want to let the day drag on forever here.

If scum does rage dump, or anyone uses rage not claimed, then we will each heal the person whose name is above ours in the playerlist within 24 hours (preferably less). Anyone that can't will be scum-claiming.

[PeregrineV]

I know Yos expressed some concern about voting taking too long as well. How about a compromise, no hurting someone unless they have at least, say 5 votes. That number may need to be reduced as we get less people in the game, but for now it seems like a good number to keep the game speed up, but also have at least a modicum of support before any hurting begins. Anyone who hurts outside of that we will agree to heal them.

Hell, we could have 2-3 people set aside JUST to heal people who are hurt out of turn, or to react in emergencies to heal someone if scum decide to target someone.

It takes 7 to lynch in a normal game of 13, so why not 7?

[PeregrineV]

I know Yos expressed some concern about voting taking too long as well. How about a compromise, no hurting someone unless they have at least, say 5 votes. That number may need to be reduced as we get less people in the game, but for now it seems like a good number to keep the game speed up, but also have at least a modicum of support before any hurting begins. Anyone who hurts outside of that we will agree to heal them.

Hell, we could have 2-3 people set aside JUST to heal people who are hurt out of turn, or to react in emergencies to heal someone if scum decide to target someone.

It takes 7 to lynch in a normal game of 13, so why not 7?

Because this isn't a normal game. Yos's concern about voting taking too much time is valid, but we need a consensus. 7 would be preferable, but if it takes us as much time in this game as it does in a normal game to move from 5 votes to 7 then who knows what advantages the scum may gain.

Working from the last War in Heaven games we know two things:

1) An uncoordinated town will lose.
2) A town that takes too much time will lose.

We need to strike a balance between those two extremes. That's why I felt like 5 was the perfect "enough" consensus.

I see your point. However, If this is a normal sized mafia game, there are 3 scum. If 2 town and 3 scum decides someone dies, you can guarantee it'll be town that dies. This doesn't have to happen more than a few times to screw town over.
I think that we should stay with 7 for the first lynch. If this doesn't appear to work, we can modify for next lynch.
The killers should be the ones voting.
Votes will be tracked.
Votes without reasons should be subject to the most scrutiny.

[PeregrineV]

Tracking starts now.

UVC-1.1

MattP (2)

- Tierce, Yosarian2

Zdenek (2)

- Kinetic, quadz08

Tierce (1)

- MattP

Kinetic (1)

- Zdenek

Not Voting (7)

- Albert B. Rampage
charter
kanyeknowsbest
kdowns
Lady Lambdadelta
PeregrineV
scooby

[PeregrineV]

^^^ Would also lynch this. ^^^

Can we get MattP Today and PereV Tomorrow?

Remember that whole "reason" thing? You can start giving them now if you really feel that way.

[PeregrineV]

I disagree. 7 Votes is too many. Even assuming your "theory" that all 3 scum will pile up And two townies will join in, that is much more dangerous for the scum. If lynches start going too fast it will be obvious something is at work. If those lynches keep hitting only town, it will be obvious something is at work. You want to push this into a normal game. This is not a normal game.

5 Votes is plenty. 7 is too many. If we have issues we can "modify" later, but we should be wary that we've already spent 7 days with the thread open and not a single person is CLOSE to 5 votes, let alone 7. In the other game, every week scum got more rage, or about that amount of time. 7 is a good way to stall the game out too much. And stalling is JUST as bad as random hurting, if not worse.

I might compromise at 6, but the last 7 days were also Thanksgiving week/weekend, and being in a hurry doesn't help when nobody is posting.

Also, we all get rage at some point, and any secret use of it will be caught by enforcing use of the HEAL mechanic immediately after secret rage is used. So, not sure why the concern about time at this point when it's all unknown and/or speculation.

[PeregrineV]

What makes you think the scum don't have a more powerful version, don't get it much more often, or have another new ability that is even more powerful? We're playing in a nightless game, that already weakens scum. Rage was supposed to be the equalizer. Now the whole town has rage? There has to be a catch. The fact that you're marginalizing that risk and pushing toward stalling even further is starting to get suspicious. You're not winning this argument.

There does have to be a catch. So insisting it's played and setup exactly like the last game (for me WiH3, for you, WiH2) makes less sense.

I'm not compromising even at 6, I think that is still too many. If we get 6, then fine, but I'm not waiting around for #6. If I thought that was an option, I'd have suggested it. I've tried a lot of compromising and being wishy washy last time. Not this time. 5 is plenty. 5 is more than enough. 5 is a strong consensus. And unless you have a compelling reason as to why 5 doesn't work, then that's what we are going with.

There is also another option to this voting system that you're not taking into account. If someone takes off the pedal, and unvotes someone back down to 4, hurting stops. 5 votes is not an instance kill. The kill could still take up to 3 days, assuming everyone voting for him hurts on their timer.

Of course I don't have a compelling reason, other than 5 is less than half of the total players, and can be majority scum.

Why would people unvote? Just to leave them floating at less than maximum hp?

[PeregrineV]

I wish Peregrine would talk about some other stuff, but so it goes.

Me too, but since it would mostly start out with "Anyone with less posts than me is probably scum", I'm willing to wait.

[PeregrineV]

Me too, but since it would mostly start out with "Anyone with less posts than me is probably scum", I'm willing to wait.

Okay, let's throw you a bone. It's Nightless, I can be as obvTown as I want to~

How about doing anything that does not involve theory? You clearly have time in your V/LA to read these posts over and mull on the implications, so I don't see how you can't take 5 minutes to read someone in context and in ISO and form reads.

There is nothing. Nothing at all.

All you have talked about so far is theory

, and I find it hard to believe that a Town player would have literally no opinion worth noting of the situations that have since arisen which are actually relevant to

finding scum

. There is no point in deciding when we start Hurting a player if you don't show interest in Hurting

anyone at all

.

"But Tierce, I totally have reads and they are awesome and stuff!" Right. Show me.

MattP is scum. Just ask you. Also agree with all your other reads.

What other non-Tierce situations have arisen that you would like my opinion on?

[PeregrineV]

Also agree with all your other reads.

Oh?

Which ones?

All of the ones where you gave a reason that wasn't based on game theory.

[PeregrineV]

Caught up, but will post tonight.

[PeregrineV]

OK caught up.

Generalities before specifics.

In the last game, scum replaced/flaked out at a remarkable rate. This will cause me to automatically suspect charter/xalxe and kdowns/Voided, and I will hold them to a higher standard of townliness.

Anyone that's played one of these games before knows how important the mechanics of the game are to how the game is played. Not wanting to discuss those mechanics and being against the pseudo-vote system are bigtime scum warning bells.
[quote=Zoraster (scum) in WiH3]Okay. So scum are on some sort of real time timer (I assume this info is from a previous game? I haven't played one of these before and don't see any mention of "rage actions"... should probably read a little of the other two). That makes an artificial deadline more attractive, but I have to admit I'm sympathetic to Sland's POV. Even if it was workable and effective (and I suspect it is not as getting 30 people to hold off on using their power is like herding cats), it'd take a lot of the fun out of the game. Plus, I think we can get more information from when and why people use their hurt/heal power than we can in just plain ol' voting.[/quote]

The fact that Kinectic and I are arguing over the proper number to "lynch" a player and 11 others seem to have no opinion or don't chime in in any way shape or form does not bode well.

[PeregrineV]

EBWOP:

OK caught up.

Generalities before specifics.

In the last game, scum replaced/flaked out at a remarkable rate. This will cause me to automatically suspect charter/xalxe and kdowns/Voided, and I will hold them to a higher standard of townliness.

Anyone that's played one of these games before knows how important the mechanics of the game are to how the game is played. Not wanting to discuss those mechanics and being against the pseudo-vote system are bigtime scum warning bells.

Okay. So scum are on some sort of real time timer (I assume this info is from a previous game? I haven't played one of these before and don't see any mention of "rage actions"... should probably read a little of the other two). That makes an artificial deadline more attractive, but I have to admit I'm sympathetic to Sland's POV. Even if it was workable and effective (and I suspect it is not as getting 30 people to hold off on using their power is like herding cats), it'd take a lot of the fun out of the game. Plus, I think we can get more information from when and why people use their hurt/heal power than we can in just plain ol' voting.

The fact that Kinectic and I are arguing over the proper number to "lynch" a player and 11 others seem to have no opinion or don't chime in in any way shape or form does not bode well.

[PeregrineV]

Hey, PeregrineV.

You see, I know for a fact that you are full of crap.

MattP is scum. Just ask you. Also agree with all your other reads.

ll of the

[reads]

where you gave a reason

that wasn't based on game theory

.

The reads I had shared so far are:
quadz - Town
Kinetic - Town
MattP - scum
PeregrineV - scum

I gave no reason for my Townreads on quadz and Kinetic.

Your agreement with me on MattP is vapid and reeks of skimming and seeing my vote for him and choosing to tag along, but with no actual commitment to a vote. My one other read was YOU, who I called scum.

So tell me, dear PereV. Which of my reads do you actually agree with? Because at the tome of your post,

I had given no reason

to any of them besides the one you had already "agreed with" and

you

.

You're trying to paint yourself as a confident follower of someone who is, frankly, as obvTown as they come ("but Tierce calling yourself obvTown is scummy"--oh

shush

). The thing is that you are clearly,

obviously

not even bothering to scumhunt, and happily posting everywhere but here. And my experience with you tells me that yes, you

can

be that bad as scum.

Turn on your snark detector there Tierce, or see #1 of my sig.
Yes, you gave no reasons, so I don't agree with any of them. Pretty simple logic when you look at it that way.

And you can be obvtown upon your flip as a demon or the end of the game. Otherwise, it's not obvious. I'll let you know when it is.

[PeregrineV]

MattP- Your coming across as a little bit whiny this game. I don't recall this behavior in any recent games with me, most of which I think you were town. What gives?

Re: kdowns- Last game he seemed to have a 1 town:3 scum posting ratio. This was mainly because we disagreed on a few things. I see that same thing happening here, which makes me think he's town this game also.

LLD- You were scum last game, but replaced in late. I doubt you read the whole game, but, you way underproduced in that game. At the time I attributed it to replacing into a 200 page game, but it turns out you were scum. This game, I will be looking to see if you are LLD-scum (WiH3) or LLD-town (Lovers) based on your posts.
Also, if allowed by Flay, can you please share the scum QT for WiH3?

Scooby was (i think) town last game, but since this one is smaller he needs to participate ALOT more. KKB was also town, but died fairly early, so a re-read of his posts then may help.
Otherwise, this game thier contributions have been nil.

ABR went down pretty early too. He ended up being town, but lurked so hard he was killed. This smaller game doesn't have that luxury, so if your not going to play, then replace out.

The rest of you played in different WiH games, or are new to it. You'll start as null to me until I determine otherwise from your posts.

[PeregrineV]

Voided, you need to explain in your next post how and why I am a null read. Go.

Patience, LLD, patience. I just got home, so that re-read has yet to happen. Most of those reads were rought remembrances from my readthrough as a neutral observer. you, in particular, are null because I need to refresh myself as to what I think about you.

Quadz: Remnd me, why exactly was I scummy for what I opened up with as if I didn't match up to your expectations as a replacment? Were you expecting me to come right out of the gate with my analysis, or something?

Yes, because this game is small, and not a lot happened. If you read it at least once you should have

something

to say.

P-EDIT: Yes, yes, I get that. To be frank, I agree with Kinetic. 7 votes is a bit too much to ask for. 5 votes for Pere came awfully easy, though, so perhaps that's a little low, but that may well just be an outlier experience. If you two really can't agree then why not compromise on 6?

That's a good idea.

P-EDIT: So, are you saying that you

Don't

agree with Tierce at all and 251 was sarcastic?

No, I don't agree with Tierce. I had no idea what her reads where other than me as scum and Matt as scum, and her Matt reason was he was arguing with her.
So yes, sarcasm.

I've listed where I'm at right now, but at the time Kinectic was my strongest townread, which is why he got the 102 heal.

[PeregrineV]

Also, I'm down with this. Wanted PV dead from the minute he was posting those votecount shenanigans.

Vote: PV

Pseudo Votecount 1.1

(5)

PeregrineV

- Zdenek, Tierce, quadz08, Kinetic, Lady Lambdadelta
(1)

MattP

- Xalxe
(1)

Albert B. Rampage

- Yosarian2

(6)

Not voting

- Albert B. Rampage, kanyeknowsbest, PeregrineV, scooby, Voidedmafia, MattP

Let me know if there are any mistakes. Might as well do this myself since I'm running page-by-page VCs for my modded games.

LLD- you will, of course, be able to explain why my post was "votecount shenanigans" but this one is not.

[PeregrineV]

There isn't much of a risk in dragging because we only increase HP-from-Heal when Rage accumulates, and The Fonz's buddy method can be disastrous. Yes, voting is slow, but we don't have deadlines, and it creates patterns that are easier to study than the buddy plan.

I'm wondering if we should only let general Townreads inflict Hurts--like scumreads should be the ones Healing surprise Rage attacks.

What "town" words are you referring to?
...that said, it would probably be ridiculously hard to implement. It's hard enough to herd cats (heh) into getting communal scumreads, communal Townreads are yet another layer of difficulty and slowing the game down.

How about doing anything that does not involve theory? You clearly have time in your V/LA to read these posts over and mull on the implications, so I don't see how you can't take 5 minutes to read someone in context and in ISO and form reads.

As I said--I've been speed-wagoned as scum. There is nothing wrong with a wagon forming quickly if there is good reasoning behind it.

Is that why you've neglected hurting me while voting me?

Slow it down, speed it up, talk mechanics, but scum if I do?

You did this in Paranoia Mafia. Ain't happening this time.

[PeregrineV]

unvote: PV

I have to read, and don't want him dead before then.

Ahh, but truly, what are the rules? I have 5 votes on my, should the hurting continue? Or is six the number?

[PeregrineV]

If you feel that way, why haven't you thrown a hurt at him yet?

This is instigating. Why did you feel you needed to wait to hurt me?

If you feel that way, why haven't you thrown a hurt at him yet?

I was just contemplating that. And frankly, we have 6 votes anyway with LLD.

Fine, I was the first to heal, let's get this rock rolling.

*Kinetic balls his hands together, producing a flame between his palms. This flame can be both a life-giving flame, or a flame of destruction, depending on his choice. He channels his anger into the flame, making it burn hot, then seizes that power and directs it at PeregrineV.*

HURT: PeregrineV

I did notice that scum last game liked to focus on me. Not surprised.

Roleplaying, Kinetic?
HURT: PeregrineV

I guess that analysis with the whole reread thing wasn;t really necessary after all, huh?

*Eyes glowing, I snap my fingers. I watch PeregrineV's body snap to rigidity, then suddenly relax again. It's clear that he's been weakened.*
HURT: PeregrineV

There it is. Lead from the rear.

[PeregrineV]

That's cool. Bring it bitches.

From the lowest depths of hell, Duke Berith unleashes the pain of a thousand lost souls. It strikes the warty hide of the disguised angel Kinetic, and pain shoots through him like fire and short-circuits his hidden halo.

HURT: Kinetic


@quadz- Do you really want me to show your "opinions" so far this game?

[PeregrineV]

Is that why you've neglected hurting me while voting me?

Slow it down, speed it up, talk mechanics, but scum if I do?

You did this in Paranoia Mafia. Ain't happening this time.

I haven't Hurt you because I don't see a need to do it yet. There were five votes on you (virtually six, and now four) and I would like more input from other people.

And I talked plenty of mechanics--but unlike you,

I actually have real content

. The way you are trying to paint this as hypocrisy on my part is absolutely ridiculous.

Come on. You've all but called me scum now with the Paranoia Mafia comparison. Why are you afraid to vote me, then?


PEdit: Oh good grief. You're just being sad now, PeregrineV. Let's lob more crap at everyone who is voting/Hurting you without forming actual reads, that is sure to improve your condition!

Snarking at people who Hurt you, snarking at people who don't... you're impossible to please, featherkins.

I gave my beginning reads already. You ignored/don't care what they are. If I'm scum, why the hell are you still talking to me and pretending like your going to listen?

And your content is Matt lied, Peregrine scum. You got anything else?

[PeregrineV]

And frankly, we have 6 votes anyway with LLD.

Fine, I was the first to heal, let's get this rock rolling.

*Kinetic balls his hands together, producing a flame between his palms. This flame can be both a life-giving flame, or a flame of destruction, depending on his choice. He channels his anger into the flame, making it burn hot, then seizes that power and directs it at PeregrineV.*

HURT: PeregrineV

And in a way, LLD is 6, so we have 6 players who are ok with hurting our dear scum.

unvote: PV

I have to read, and don't want him dead before then.

Pseudo Votecount 1.4

(4)

PeregrineV

-

(Zdenek,)

Tierce, quadz08, Kinetic, Voidedmafia
(1)

MattP

- Xalxe
(1)

Albert B. Rampage

- Yosarian2

(7)

Not voting

- Albert B. Rampage, kanyeknowsbest, PeregrineV, scooby, MattP, Lady Lambdadelta, Zdenek


Let me know if there are any mistakes.

@Tierce- your votecount disagrees with Kinetic's math.

[PeregrineV]

That's cool. Bring it bitches.

From the lowest depths of hell, Duke Berith unleashes the pain of a thousand lost souls. It strikes the warty hide of the disguised angel Kinetic, and pain shoots through him like fire and short-circuits his hidden halo.

HURT: Kinetic


@quadz- Do you really want me to show your "opinions" so far this game?

Scum confirmed. Someone he reads as town, he starts hurting as soon as the jig is up. And don't even try to defend it, I don't have any votes on me,

not even yours

.

I've listed where I'm at right now, but at the time Kinectic was my strongest townread, which is why he got the 102 heal.

No mention since then, although based on not putting it on his "list" we can assume his opinion hasn't changed.

That's OK, you destroyed my town read on you fairly quickly.
Apparently I gave no reads until 400 posts after the game started, but I don;t know who you think is scum.
Except when Voided said "6 is better", Kinetic says "OK, 6". But when I say it, I'm distracting and trying to drag the game out.

Buddy all you want, buddy.

And to make you feel better:

Vote: Kinetic

[PeregrineV]

PeregrineV: What happened to your read on Kinetic that made you willing to vote him?

466 sums it up. Not going to bother with post numbers, you can iso the three of us.

[PeregrineV]

And frankly, we have 6 votes anyway with LLD.

Fine, I was the first to heal, let's get this rock rolling.

*Kinetic balls his hands together, producing a flame between his palms. This flame can be both a life-giving flame, or a flame of destruction, depending on his choice. He channels his anger into the flame, making it burn hot, then seizes that power and directs it at PeregrineV.*

HURT: PeregrineV

And in a way, LLD is 6, so we have 6 players who are ok with hurting our dear scum.

unvote: PV

I have to read, and don't want him dead before then.

Pseudo Votecount 1.4

(4)

PeregrineV

-

(Zdenek,)

Tierce, quadz08, Kinetic, Voidedmafia
(1)

MattP

- Xalxe
(1)

Albert B. Rampage

- Yosarian2

(7)

Not voting

- Albert B. Rampage, kanyeknowsbest, PeregrineV, scooby, MattP, Lady Lambdadelta, Zdenek


Let me know if there are any mistakes.

@Tierce- your votecount disagrees with Kinetic's math.

Nice try scum. Even

if

we look at it NOW, Zd just unvote you. It was 5/6 when I hurt you, 6.5 from Xalve, more than enough to hurt you then. Don't misrepresent that it was 4 at the time the hurt occurred.

If it's four now, and Zdenek unvoted, then it was 5.

Not 5/6.

5.

And why are you adding a half-vote from Xalve?

[PeregrineV]

(Also, funny how you're avoiding kinetic's and Tierce's posts against you. Indict you by quite a lot, do they?)

Answering them in order here.

[PeregrineV]

PV needs to die NOW. The longer we wait the more hurts on town he can commit with impunity. Anyone delaying at this point is going to get a strong look from my book (I'm looking at you Zd with your "convenient" unvote).

I haven't hurt town yet.

And if I'm at 4 votes, why does the hurting continue?

So they are not town rules, they are

your

rules?

Yep, looks like they are your rules:

Except, I told void that I STILL PREFER 5! Except I even said in every single post, if you had come back with 6 immediately, I probably would have conceded then. That the SCUMMY part of your play, and the reason I stuck to 5 was the fact that you came back with 7. Except, you're not listening. Misrep all you want scum, you're dead.

[PeregrineV]

Fiiine.

There is a piercing cry from above. The next blow is all talons and fury and hot rage.

HURT: PeregrineV

At 4 votes?

Or 4.5 if you count Xalve?

Demon society is breaking down.

[PeregrineV]

But if only 4-5 people hurt him, it'll take 2-3 cycles to kill him, allowing him to hurt 2-3 times, and that's if everyone hurts on their timer. The longer people delay, the more hurts he will be able to use, so people who are not on the wagon who are town should be hurting now too to limit the damage he does before he dies.

Don't worry, you're so town you'll be healed in no time flat. /sarcasm

And this seems to be a change in the whole voters do thier own killing thing.

Any other changes to

your

rules?

[PeregrineV]

And why are you adding a half-vote from Xalve?

I told him to.

That's OK, you destroyed my town read on you fairly quickly.

How?

1. Lack of reads, which is being used against

me.

2. Mechanics discussion that labeled me scum, but Kinetic town by the same people throwing hurts at me.
3. Changing the rules that are supposed to allow for orderly scumhunting.
4. Not fearful of my scum colleagues hurting him, because he knows I don't have any.

[PeregrineV]

PV is definitively scummier than Matt right now, IMO. Continually misrepping Tierce and Kinetic, still no amount of decent scumhunting. And of course the complete lack of it up till about page 16 or so.

P-EDIT: Firstly, what Xalxe said.

Secondly, it was 6 with me, that's around when the hurts began. zdenek unvoted to make it 5, and so on.

P-EDIT2: Er, no they aren't? And yes you have?

I know you want me to shut up and take it, but it ain't going to happen.

[PeregrineV]

5 is the magic number. And based on the other hurts, I think they agree with me there. And LLD only unvoted until you returned, she hasn't posted since then, but her support for the wagon and your death is there. And Xalve is a half-vote because he SAID he is a half vote.

with hurting our dear scum.


Make it 6.5; the speed makes me balk but as I said, Matt and PV are scum 1 and scum 2.

(this is me not hurting yet until my #3 is addressed)

The fact of the matter is, there are 7 people in the game that agree you have to die, of them, 6 have voted for you but currently only 4 are voting now. They have each hurt you at 5 or 4 votes, so they must agree that the number of votes is fine.

Now you are saying that there is no formal voting system, and you will be the one to interpret what everyone's reads are in a manner that you think best?

We were using votes, when did we switch to this?

[PeregrineV]

Hello Mr. Cognitive Dissonance We Must Only Hurt People At Seven Votes But Here Let Me Hurt Kinetic Because I Have This Really Amazing(ly Sucky) Scum Read On Him.

I would be Hurting you at this stage if you were down to my vote alone. I'm awesome like that. ^_^

Well, I guess we're both a pair of rebels then.

[PeregrineV]

Can I just go on record that my name does not have a V? Thanks.

Also PV stop ignoring me pls kthx.

I've been answering. Are you looking for 483?

[PeregrineV]

Fiiine.

There is a piercing cry from above. The next blow is all talons and fury and hot rage.

HURT: PeregrineV

At 4 votes?

Or 4.5 if you count Xalve?

Demon society is breaking down.

You hurting off vote is what has caused us to go into kill now mode. It was the VERY THING I said might happen when we reached a certain number of votes. Remember this conversation:

There is also another option to this voting system that you're not taking into account. If someone takes off the pedal, and unvotes someone back down to 4, hurting stops. 5 votes is not an instance kill. The kill could still take up to 3 days, assuming everyone voting for him hurts on their timer.

Of course I don't have a compelling reason, other than 5 is less than half of the total players, and can be majority scum.

Why would people unvote? Just to leave them floating at less than maximum hp?

You hurting without having ANY votes on your target opened up the floodgates, not anyone else. And after you die we will return to civility.

So less than 5 votes stops the hurting, because as of 472 I had 4 (4.5) votes, and a hurt from Tierce.

[PeregrineV]

WHEN YOU HURT SOMEONE WITH NO VOTES! That is when it changed. You voided ALL the rules, and until you're dead the town cannot return to those rules. We still have a consensus on you and you will die. Period.

I've votes you now to make it official.

Tierce hurt at 4 votes. Did she break the rules?

An this is a direct contratiction to this:

If someone takes off the pedal, and unvotes someone back down to 4, hurting stops. 5 votes is not an instance kill. The kill could still take up to 3 days, assuming everyone voting for him hurts on their timer.

Explain how there are any rules that you aren't making up or changing as the game goes along.

[PeregrineV]

Well ok, it's only stupid in principle, not in this particular circumstance. We need to stick with the rules, we can't break them willy-nilly. In this case, it is clear that there's a consensus, so it's nbd etc.

Give me a break. There isn't a single game groundrule we set that hasn't been broken so far. If everything is an exception, there are no rules.

And is consensus decided by votes or not?

[PeregrineV]

So less than 5 votes stops the hurting, because as of 472 I had 4 (4.5) votes, and a hurt from Tierce.

No.

You

changed the rules.

So you are attributing me with the power to make/change the rules? Because I said 7 votes.

You

defended "7 votes are needed before Hurting someone!" and then Hurt Kinetic just because.

Yes.
Was I hurt when I did not have 7 votes on me?
Yes.
Did I hurt after I was hurt without 7 votes on me?
Yes.

So, try again.

This means the rules are off. This means you die immediately, because you are scum, and we have nothing to gain from waiting and keeping you alive so you can Hurt more.

Wait, I never made a rule that all rules are off if one was broken. If you are arrtibuting me with the ability to make/change the rules, then why are YOU making/changing rules?

Try again.

[PeregrineV]

That was my position, and I agree with it. My point is that YOU were the one who argued against it, when it was convenient to you, but as SOON as you were caught scum you disregarded EVERYTHING you claimed to stand for. You hurt without 7 votes. Without even 5 votes. Without even 1 vote on your target. You violated the rules of our just society, you do not now get to claim the protections of them.

I know, you want me to shut up and die.

But, since I'm town and can hurt also, I don't have to sit here and take it.

So, welcome to hell.

[PeregrineV]

You violated the rules of our just society, you do not now get to claim the protections of them.

I'm just going to quote this now to all of PV's posts.

Sig it.

[PeregrineV]

Also, are we going to wait until 5, 6, or 7 votes until people start hurting me again, or are you just going to continue down the current path?

[PeregrineV]

If you break the rules, why should you still be held to them in the strictest sense? Perhaps we should wait for 5 votes, maybe. But you've broken most of everything else at the least, so why should you be beholden to them?

It would be super groovy if you can go ahead and list all the established rules. Since you've stated they exist AND I broke them, I assume they will be fairly comprehensive.

And I'm currently understanding that the rules you are going to post no longer apply to me? Or do they?

[PeregrineV]

The rule is not "You must have as many votes on me as I decide before you may hurt me" the rule is 5 votes and hurting may commence. That is the rule the town has a consensus to agree upon. Even NOW you claim it to be 7. All of that shit of a "compromise" on 6 is just that, shit.

Read Tierce 499. Are we going by what I think the rules should be, or what you think the rules should be? You can't have it both ways.

And I don't mind you posting at all. The more you post, the more information we will have to figure out who your scum buddies are later. So please scum, keep posting, keep digging that hole.

P-Edit: If you heal the hurt you caused during your next cycle, I will agree that we should re-instated the "wait until 5 votes to hurt YOU" is followed. But that rule IS in effect on everyone else right now. It is only forfeit on YOU because YOU disregarded the rules and hurt someone with

no votes on them at all

. Do you seriously not understand that?

Do you seriously not understand that I am town, and I do not have to and I will not sit here with my thumb up my ass while 4 players out of 12 try to kill me?

You want me to heal you? You, quadz, and Voided all reach cooldown before me.
If you want to stop the stupidity, then I'll consider a heal.
So it's not up to me, it's up to your posse, and they have not indicated they wish to back down.

So are we going to stop the fighting?

[PeregrineV]

Now, as for Tierce's VC, the meta changes when I call out someone on putting up a VC being scummy. It becomes very WIFOM as to whether scum or town would try and start that back up. Null tell from this point forward, the VC scum tell may only be used once if the subject doesn't know it's there.

Last game, town did it (Spring and I) until scum took it over (Magua).

The second you hurt him Kinetic, even if it's within the rules, it opens him up to hurt you back if he thinks your scum. No player should ever have to sit there and watch as the town kills them without being able to present their own case.

No, I think this is part of the accountability clause. If you're going to be on the wagon to hurt someone you're fairgame for retaliation. Now, whether that retaliation is townie or scummy is entirely distinct and separate, but this should 100% be the rule. I'm calling it the 1v1 accountability clause and it WILL be implemented.

I agree.

@Voided

- Make sure to add this rule.

[PeregrineV]

I seriously know you are not town. I gave you that "option" because I know you won't follow it, instead you will hurt either me or someone else the moment you get the chance. I said what I will do if you heal instead of hurt, but don't for one second think I'm going to hesitate or take my foot off the pedal until you do. I'm the one who has stuck to my word this game and the one with the word that can be trusted, you aren't.

Once again, the ball is in your court. Your cooldown will happen first, along with Voided and quadz.
If I'm hurt again, then I obviously will not heal.
If the cooldown timer expires, and I'm not hurt, then reasonable discussion can take place and if I think we're getting somewhere, as a town, then I'll consider healing you.
So, we can see in about 22 hours.

The LAST thing I'm going to do is say "Hey, let's see if PV, the person I think is scum and who is acting scummy, and breaking all the rules we agreed to will now start to suddenly act like town again if we give him another chance." That is just as likely to give you enough time for one more hurt before you die, and that is not something I'm willing to allow happen.

So does this mean you will be hurting me again in 20 something hours?

[PeregrineV]

Your convenient scum opportunism is noted. This is why I'm sure you won't ever try to "heal" me. You get a convenient justification and its all of a sudden "I'mma hurt all I want." Diescumdie

So did you mean this or not?

P-Edit: If you heal the hurt you caused during your next cycle, I will agree that we should re-instated the "wait until 5 votes to hurt YOU" is followed.

[PeregrineV]

This is not a negotiation scum. I'm going to hurt you again as soon as I am able. You have given me no reason to discuss otherwise. Why in the HELL would I not hurt you, when EVEN NOW you say the best we can do is "reasonable discussion can take place and if I think we're getting somewhere, as a town, then I'll consider healing you."

They why 512?

I'm not going to give your threat ANY credence. Because that is all that it is, a threat. I'm giving you an opportunity to prove otherwise, but like hell if I'm going to delay your death one second while you continue to act exactly how scum would act in this situation.

What threat? You ask me to heal you, I point out that you will determine my course of action since your cooldown ends first.

And you disagree with LLD's accountability rule?

So if 4 more people vote you, you won't hurt anymore?

[PeregrineV]

Your convenient scum opportunism is noted. This is why I'm sure you won't ever try to "heal" me. You get a convenient justification and its all of a sudden "I'mma hurt all I want." Diescumdie

So did you mean this or not?

P-Edit: If you heal the hurt you caused during your next cycle, I will agree that we should re-instated the "wait until 5 votes to hurt YOU" is followed.

I mean it. And as soon as you heal me, if you are not at or over 5 votes I will stop all hurts from myself and fight to stop anyone else from hurting you. But the ball is in YOUR court until then.

Then hear me say this. If one of Quadz, you, or Voided hurt me before me cooldown expires, then it's retarded to heal you, since I would just be killing myself for you. And I won't do that.

[PeregrineV]

Seriously. Look at the way PV is treating Kinetic. This is fear-mongering scum using the threat of more Hurts/no Heals. Would this even make sense if PeregrineV was Town with a scumread on Kinetic? No. Town accepts self-sacrifices, and Town accepts that Hurting others just because omg I was Hurt will only lead to a loss. Town doesn't have such ridiculous dissonances in the way they claim to think and and then choose to act.

He's not defending himself against someone he thinks is scum. He is

threatening

Kinetic. This is disgusting to see and it's scum play.

And again, Kinetic's 530 super ninja'd me. ...Talons, book, etc.

Except this isn't a normal game where I just limp off to the gallows. If you want that, sign up for a normal game.

[PeregrineV]

Now that we've started, and he's started shooting back, we need to kill him quickly before he does much damage.

Why didn't you heal Kinetic instead? He was down one, and you think he's town.

FYI last game, scum had to be in on the hurt to get the benefits from a town death.

Stuff like this usually means scum.

pedit: No, I am town, and I will use all my fiery powers to leave my mark. And I've already claimed, so why the fake request?

[PeregrineV]

The second you hurt him Kinetic, even if it's within the rules, it opens him up to hurt you back if he thinks your scum. No player should ever have to sit there and watch as the town kills them without being able to present their own case.

No.

If you are town, and the town has decided to lynch you, your job is to A: convince the town to not lynch you, and B: convince the town to lynch someone else instead. Just like in any other game. Firing random shots at that point is totally unhelpful, and is pure anti-town behavior.

Keep defending yourself until the point of death, sure, keep making cases against other people, but attacking is bad, and could easily push us in to MAD syndrome.

I disagree. I'm town and I can hurt. Why do I not hurt players I think are scum?

And I thought we were at a point were discussion would start again. You are obviously against that, as evidenced by your action.

[PeregrineV]

The second you hurt him Kinetic, even if it's within the rules, it opens him up to hurt you back if he thinks your scum. No player should ever have to sit there and watch as the town kills them without being able to present their own case.

No.

If you are town, and the town has decided to lynch you, your job is to A: convince the town to not lynch you, and B: convince the town to lynch someone else instead. Just like in any other game. Firing random shots at that point is totally unhelpful, and is pure anti-town behavior.

Keep defending yourself until the point of death, sure, keep making cases against other people, but attacking is bad, and could easily push us in to MAD syndrome.

I disagree. I'm town and I can hurt. Why do I not hurt players I think are scum?

And I thought we were at a point were discussion would start again. You are obviously against that, as evidenced by your action.

[PeregrineV]

LLD

-Also, if allowed by Flay, can you please share the scum QT for WiH3?

[PeregrineV]

And I've already claimed, so why the fake request?

I went back to look at your posts, and this is all I see:

That's cool. Bring it bitches.

From the lowest depths of hell, Duke Berith unleashes the pain of a thousand lost souls. It strikes the warty hide of the disguised angel Kinetic, and pain shoots through him like fire and short-circuits his hidden halo.

HURT: Kinetic

Was that supposed to be a claim? Are you planning to do anything more then a name-claim?

I mean, if you don't want to claim, then fine, we'll just continue killing you, but all this thrashing around about me "shutting off discussion" and calling me giving you a last chance a "fake request" just makes you look more scummy to me.

Well according to Yosarian, we are not claiming HP. If I claim a power role, I'll still be killed, because the hurts came before I even logged back on. Pretty much within 25 hours of the initial hurt.
Excellent timing.

And this seems to indicate that if I do claim, you will not continue to kill me. Let's see how that works out.

If you wanted to discuss stuff more, if you didn't want to force our hand, then you shouldn't have shot.

Yes, I should lie down and die. You and the rest of the town minority have already stated this.

And the fact that you're STILL saying you are going to continue shooting just makes it worse.

I said it's up to them, they reach cooldown sooner. I figured they'd shoot, and lo and behold, 3 of them all in a row. I'll await your chastisement of them, instead of the guy that's dying.

Do you really think the rest of the town is just going to sit back and let you and Kinetic slowly ping each other to death? That would be pretty much the dumbest thing we could possibly do.

I think I mentioned stopping hurting and talking.

There is not a single case on me for why I'm scum other than I refuse to take shit from others who want to fling it at me.
And it's NOT A MAJORITY, NOR IS IT REQUIRED TO BE ONE.


If scum don;t have this game locked up inside 6 weeks, they ain't trying. Oh well, it's not like my death changes the lynch threshold or anything!!
Or does it? Should only require 4 votes for the next person.

Here, let me make this simple for you: confirm right now that you're not going to shoot at all again today unless the votes agree with you, or else it's time to post any last words you want to say before you die. We have no time for anything else.

Really? We're running out of time? In a a nightless game? Where Rage is given to each town player?
And why are you still talking and pretending to care about what I have to say and still killing me?
Does that make sense to you?

Ok, as of post 569, I won't be shooting unless someone shoots me.

[PeregrineV]

Now that we've started, and he's started shooting back, we need to kill him quickly before he does much damage.

Why didn't you heal Kinetic instead? He was down one, and you think he's town.

I intend to heal Kinetic as soon as I regenerate the hitpoint I used at the start of the game. Of course, you will hopefully be dead before that happens.

If you want to convince me that hurting Kinetic is somehow justified, then explain how hurting Kinetic and thus forcing the rest of the town to waste resources healing him back up helps the town.

Why wait? If you feel he is that town, then I do it now. I did, because he came across that way early on. But, the minute I disagreed, I became a stinking filthy angel.

With the given consequences.

[PeregrineV]

For the record, I'm Duke Berith. My PM differs in flavor, but as far as you need to know, it's the sample PM.

Yos hop into the middle of the fray when things may have calmed down was bad. So is the lay down and take it thing.

Vote: Yosarian

Ooops, let's follow the fluid and fleixble rules, where you can hurt someone as long as you are voting them.

Vote: Kinetic

The lemurous souls of a thousand wronged women surge forth from the lowest pits, called by the power of Duke Berith, and strike Kinetic with the fury of their rage, all the more powerful since he feels angelic pity for their torment. The blow is so strong, his pocket harp disintegrates into a powdery white ash.

Hurt: Kinetic

This action comes too soon (during your recharge).

And lest you think scum did it,

Twenty-Six Legions of Fiends shall descend upon those who question the Voice of Berith, as they are his Rage. Those Legions strike upon the persona of Kinetic, the Hidden Angel, who is only disguised as One of the Fallen. Mighty Satan willing, he will be destroyed and be forced here in Truth.

Now, since my vote is permanent once I die,

Vote: Yos

You gave yourself away trying to get in on the action. You probably get powered up by my sweet demon blood, because town wouldn't have done that.

[PeregrineV]

The amount of oversimplification (at BEST) and misrepping in this single statement is absolutely staggering. It's like you're not even bothering to find out why we think you're scum beyond what's currently being addressed and strawmanning onto only that.

Die faster.

So, the new standard is for me to ask you WHY you think I'm scum?

My bad.

As you kill me, Voided, why am I scum? You know, so scummy that discussion no longer need take place.

[PeregrineV]

Er, why? There's 13 (or 12) players. If we were using 7, then yeah, it'd go down to 6, but if we're using only 5 it's possibly better to keep it at that threshold. That's most likely a debate for later unless Kinetic et al want to talk about it now.

Yes, keep it open, should people start realizing that the system currently in place isn;t really there at all.

Really? We're running out of time? In a a nightless game? Where Rage is given to each town player?
And why are you still talking and pretending to care about what I have to say and still killing me?
Does that make sense to you?

For all of claiming that we're telling you to roll over and die and scoffing at that, you sure seem willing to do it yourself.

Rolling over? How so?
I've claimed.
I've tried to provide all 7 months experience with my previous WiH game.
I've stated I've been open to discussion.

You damage me because you "can".

Roleplaying, Kinetic?

HURT: PeregrineV

Your fake-ass stated reason for it:

(er, I did vote PV, Tierce. Fairly sure I did.)

Anyways, Tierce does have a point regarding your theory/scumhunting ratio. Other than your attacks on tierce's reasonings for her reads (or lack thereof), there's barely anything there that relates to scumhunting at all.

Of course, he does explain his posts 249 and 251 were sarcastic, but then that means that he actually doesn't have any non-theory-related reads, or at least none that he's stated. Sure, 421 has reads, but that's almost 200 posts later, and every post of his in between those has practically been about nothing but theory.

(If it wasn't clear already, I think PV is scum).

And 25 hours and 30 minutes later, this

HURT: PeregrineV

So pardon me for thinking you are lying scum.