Mini #893 - Dollhouse Mafia (Game Over!)

[farside22]

Hi everyone
/confirm
Just finished page 5 but I have to go to work so I want to put my notes that I have now before I leave this computer and go to the other.

Basically theres a whole lot a scum and not that many town, thus voting is tilted in scum favour, so by randomizing we remove that. Now if we randomly chose a player day 1 and repeatedly imprint them and vote NL until they find scum we have a 66% of winning right now and honestly with a 2-1 town to scum ratio that's a hell of a lot better win % then playing the game straight up.

This is wrong. And scummy.

There are 4 scum and 8 town. You're making it sound like town is in the minority. We are twice as strong at the scum right now.

Why is this scummy? Seriously I think it's boring, it isn't mafia but how is it scummy?

Seriously, if we're just going to dice roll and imprint one person repeatedly, no-lynching for days on end, waiting for the one person to draw a cop role and hit scum, well then I would ask for replacement right now because you don't actually need players for that and it's not going to be fun.

Not a fan of this post by EK

I have a major problem with Buttonman's plan.

It sounds boring as hell.

Just sayin'.

Why? Talk about saying nothing at all here

You didn't have the step where you lynched the person with the power. And I PM'd the mod a while ago about it. And I don't think you have considered naive or paranoid results.

And it doesn't lead to a worthwhile game.

Having said that, voting you for trying to break the setup is scummy as.

Again how is a better then average % for town winning scummy?

I really don't like that both SC and Elvis imprint each other too much buddy, buddy for me. I don't care if you know someone in the game giving an imprint without a reason is just as scummy to me as doing a vote without a reason.

Will finish this later

[farside22]

@ farside, I've been over all the issues surrounding me and SC, so I think you will see my explanation in thread the more you read. If you still want me to respond after you finish reading, I'll say it again.

Yeah I just got to that. I'm now starting page nine. I'm going to pop my latest notes down because I didn't have time to get here till now and I'm leaving in 10 minutes.

vala: what in your read makes you believe that elvis and plums were town? I notice you changed your mind reading further about EK so this is in regards to plum more now. Also I don't see self imprinting as scummy. Only person you can trust is yourself.
EK: Why are you so with SC and you having an imprint over any other player? How do you figure it is a least risk to the town without knowing SC's alignment? I disagree with your logic about the confusion. Anyone can fake confusion about what the scum can or can not do or just not read their role very well.

EK said:
Why do you disagree with my reasons for imprinting SC and me? Do you think we could be faking or do you think scum are dumb enough not to understand their own kill mechanic?

I mean this the nicest way but yes I believe you to fake well. I still have the memory of You are what you eat in my head with you as scum.


Also looking at page 6 and seeing EK's reason for believing SC town based on the no scum can NK comment. I just read the page 1 on the roles and just so you can see:

You are [NAME], a rogue active.

Together with [NAME2], [NAME3] and [NAME4], you have broken free of the Dollhouse's brainwashing, and the four of you are determined to bring the Dollhouse down from the inside.

You may communicate in private at all times using the following link: MAFIA QUICKTOPIC

You win when the only survivors are rogue actives OR when it is inevitable that this will be the case OR if the number of rogue actives is equal to the number of ordinary actives at the start of a day, and no ordinary actives have any imprints.

No where in it does it say whether scum can kill or not. It's assumed by many (at least that I know of) that scum can kill at night in all games. So assuming they can kill and asking this question in thread doesn't indicate auto-townie based on the role givin to scum.
I know as a mod I don't say in my PM's that the scum have 1 kill among them.

Mad props to pug for post 150 and exactly my thoughts.

Val why do you think limerick is town?

DN: is the first person to make me want to smack my head via post 172 - congrats! Okay now that my sarcasm is out of the way. How on earth do you say that someone is not scum but not town either? LOL

Wow and a complete 180 turn from EK with this comment:

Like your vote on Buttonmen, which was essentially because you found him annoying and you disliked his plan. While I happen to agree with you, those things don't indicate his allignment, and if you think about it, he probably was trying to break the game for the town. Which suggests he is town.

Did you not call him scummy not but 2 pages ago for trying to break the game?
So far I want to just

FOS: EK

for that 180 on buttonmen

[farside22]

I feel SC miss's the point entirely here:

Quote:
You know elvis, all of what you say is coming from someone who's trying to pass herself and SC off as confirmed because you misunderstood a rule.


That's a terrible post. ANYTHING elvis says is coming from that position - do you feel it's enough to discredit any argument she makes about anythign from now to the end of the game?

EK confirms you as town because of thinking scum had a NK. As pointed out unless you ask as scum about this point you don't know whether you have a NK or not as not all mod's are always clear in there role description that a kill is part of the deal.

post 231 I will say a lot of this is WIFOM but some isn't but I will be happy to answer this
1) I think one of you is scum based on my read
2) you could it would be easy to explain later but it's a trail and hard to say if scum would do this but again I don't like random imprints from people
3) meh? I would like this rephrased
4) he does and there is no reason for scum to not realize this as I showed
5) what?
6) what?

5 and 6 don't make sense I think it's questions on the future of the game which leads to WIFOM then.
Just for clarification:

Basically theres a whole lot a scum and not that many town, thus voting is tilted in scum favour, so by randomizing we remove that. Now if we randomly chose a player day 1 and repeatedly imprint them and vote NL until they find scum we have a 66% of winning right now and honestly with a 2-1 town to scum ratio that's a hell of a lot better win % then playing the game straight up.

This is wrong. And scummy.

There are 4 scum and 8 town. You're making it sound like town is in the minority. We are twice as strong at the scum right now.

What I would like to know reading back again between these 2 post why you focused just on the odds that button mentions and not the idea? He does say 2-1 in town favor so I'm not sure how you come up with this post in the first place.

Well, when I thought buttonman was misrepping the town's influence (ie, saying there is a lot of scum and not many town sounds like we are in the minority, which is not true), I thought he was scummy.


But I think he is actually trying to win the game (through breaking the game). So that's not scummy.

VMD: post 249 you are voting for EK who you state is probably town and your calling jason probably scum because he has not posted? Did you look to see if he posted elsewhere or if he was simply a no show or anything when compiling this list. Also nice and quick imprint of self after asking many times why people are doing and saying it seems scummy.


based on the game brake talk

imprint: TheBUttonmen

bah reading SC post about EK in 215 I get the impression he is just impressed with EK and ignoring things that he shouldn't.

VMD: There are exactly four people who I feel are not posting enough: lewarcher, Jason, DN, and Plum. That's enough to make up a scumteam of people lazing around drinking margaritas while town beats up town.

scum don't post or is this almost the evilant of lynching lurkers in this post that leaves a bad taste especially as not too long ago she was saying Plum was town.

i have to agree with post 259 about lew from pug

And on that note, if I didn't already know DN's meta is to post very curtly and anti-townly like this, I would have buried him ages ago. If you can prove to me that you always sit back like this no matter your alignment, lewarcher, then I will cut you some slack, otherwise post moar or die.

meta is really overrated. Judging by one game or multiple games does DN act like this no matter his alignment?

POST: 278 from EK: someone did comment on it and you ignored it. Why do you feel so strongly that it needs to be answered? As a townie who has no information on who is town or scum would you not question the budding going on between two players as you and SC have done?

post 284: I really dislike people who call a post good because it agrees with their theories and comments. Basically my big issue with SC is he has called 2 people scum for disagree with EK and him on their actions. Just a pev

post 292: yeah lets all high 5 each other for agreeing with EK. Again just feels like someone giving a person protown because they agreed with you.

Some of the other reactions I got from people have not seemed pro-town. They have seemed like panicked attempts to stop the town from confirming two town players.

Okay now that I pointed out the role and how it was written to the scum and how scum mods do not automatically put in their role PM's that scum have a kill between them how do you figure this clears you and SC?

Thank you reck for pointing out the same thing I saw!

This stuff about people being semi-cleared because they "didn't understand the setup" is complete bullshit. I read the rules, but even I glazed over the fact that scum lacked a night kill. I read the sample PMs, and I still didn't get it. It wasn't until the Mod clarified that I finally realized it. It's a null-tell. Trying to push it as a town-tell is a slight-scum-tell, though.

OMG post is so what I'm thinking I want to imprint: recknor

@Reckoner: Why the voted on DN? Why the IGMEOY to TheButtonmen who you did imprint?

@SC post 311 ah I read that incorrectly I realize now it was worded oddly.

I have a suggestion. Lynch DN, imprint me. If I'm wrong, and he's town, I'll be the next lynch, and I'll tell you all what my power was and where I used it and what I found. If I'm right, we lynch Starbuck and imprint me and elvis.

HELL NO!!!!

You wouldn't agree to imprint me knowing I'd only have the chance to use it once if dn is town, even if I was scum?

You could lie about what your PR is. We don't know what the imprint is that your getting and right now my trust in your or EK is lacking. Mind you if you lie then we lynch you and I would only agree to give you an imprint if we did a no lynch that is how little I trust either you or EK

TheButtonmen: post 320 umm town gets the imprint only for the night

SC post 321: how doe DN turning up town make you scum exactly? This post confuses me.

TheButtonmen: pst 323 is the man!

SC: 325 AtE much. Umm lets see DN comes up scum you are saying your town what else is a person to think reading that? Saying that only you and EK should get an imprint when most find suspion on EK means you are ignoring the majority. Pfft you miss the point of clearning you and her is a null tell I see


But aside from all that, the biggest criticisms of elvis I can see is her 'overreaction' to DN, which of course she can be clared of if he's scum, and her buddying/clearing of me, which again is supported by a DN scumflip

Again I don't see how DN flip clears you and EK.


SC: Why are you protecting EK? I mean I really want to understand why you are so sure she is town.



Some of the other reactions I got from people have not seemed pro-town. They have seemed like panicked attempts to stop the town from confirming two town players.

Okay now that I pointed out the role and how it was written to the scum and how scum mods do not automatically put in their role PM's that scum have a kill between them how do you figure this clears you and SC?

Thank you reck for pointing out the same thing I saw!

This stuff about people being semi-cleared because they "didn't understand the setup" is complete bullshit. I read the rules, but even I glazed over the fact that scum lacked a night kill. I read the sample PMs, and I still didn't get it. It wasn't until the Mod clarified that I finally realized it. It's a null-tell. Trying to push it as a town-tell is a slight-scum-tell, though.

OMG post is so what I'm thinking I want to

imprint: recknor

@Reckoner: Why the voted on DN? Why the IGMEOY to TheButtonmen who you did imprint?

@SC post 311 ah I read that incorrectly I realize now it was worded oddly.

[quote="sc"I have a suggestion. Lynch DN, imprint me. If I'm wrong, and he's town, I'll be the next lynch, and I'll tell you all what my power was and where I used it and what I found. If I'm right, we lynch Starbuck and imprint me and elvis. [/quote]

HELL NO!!!!

You wouldn't agree to imprint me knowing I'd only have the chance to use it once if dn is town, even if I was scum?

You could lie about what your PR is. We don't know what the imprint is that your getting and right now my trust in your or EK is lacking. Mind you if you lie then we lynch you and I would only agree to give you an imprint if we did a no lynch that is how little I trust either you or EK

TheButtonmen: post 320 umm town gets the imprint only for the night

SC post 321: how does DN turning up town make you scum exactly? This post confuses me.

TheButtonmen: pst 323 is the man!

SC: 325 AtE much. Umm lets see DN comes up scum you are saying your town what else is a person to think reading that? Saying that only you and EK should get an imprint when most find suspicion on EK means you are ignoring the majority. Pfft you miss the point of clearing you and her is a null tell I see

But aside from all that, the biggest criticisms of elvis I can see is her 'overreaction' to DN, which of course she can be clared of if he's scum, and her buddying/clearing of me, which again is supported by a DN scumflip

Again I don't see how DN flip clears you and EK.


SC: Why are you protecting EK? I mean I really want to understand why you are so sure she is town.

Finally I can't say vala is on my town list. I see a few discrepancies from here that bother me.

I think have 2 people imprinted or 3 imprinted with a no lynch is best too.

vote: EK

[farside22]

Farside - reactions to my suggestion that you lynch me and if I flip town imprint elvis and vote DN?

I think you are putting too much stock into believing elvis is town were I don't see this as EK town read so far.
Then I have that sick thought that you are trying to use this a ploy as scum you may not be partner with EK and hope it will lynch town tomorrow. Call this lack of trust in either of you. As I said reading both of you I feel one is scum and EK is who I lean as scum in this case over you.

[farside22]

EK has primarily been attacked for trying to confirm the two of us as town. I'm telling you I have a read of her as town. If I am killed and confirmed town myself, that means she went to a lot of effort to try to confirm a townie and you can be sure that my read of her is well-intentioned - both of these things make her more likely to be town.

Now you're just ignoring the point the reck and myself made about the confirmed town comment from EK. She calls you both confirmed town based on a weak reason. The role sent to the scum does not say they have a kill but again I could post a multitude of role PM that do not include that line when they send out roles. It's an assumption that mafia has a NK just because you talked about it in thread with this assumption does not make you town.

Farside, what don't you like about EK saying that in the case of a broken, extremely tedious strategy she'd replace out? I don't exactly get it; it seems like a null and normal reaction to me.

VMD said the same thing but a part of me see's this as either OMG I'm scum and doing this will get me the caught this sucks. Or it's someone who says they would rather scum hunt then break the game. EK's reaction seems like an emotional response to someone trying to break the game in order to assure a town win and not liking those odd's

As for who I would like to see imprinted: Thebuttonman, Recknor and myself.

I still haven't received an answer for how DN flip proves SC to be scum or town.

[farside22]

@EK: I did it in games I modded where I neglect to mention that mafia have a kill. Example is here: http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... start=2225

Only one player was told they were immune to NK if they didnt' proform the kill but sometimes I just assume mafia knows they have a kill unless stated otherwise.

[farside22]

Well, SC, both you and me have wanted DN dead since page 1, so it would be reasonable to atleast feel a little more townie about us if DN flips scum. The fact that nobody even wants to admit that we

probably

aren't scum with DN should be a sign.

It's unfortunate that some people who I think are probably town are as opposed to everything we say as the scum are.

Yes dear because there is no way scum would try and buss a scum partner to look town.
Would you like wine with your cheese?

[farside22]

Page one doesn't usually bring a lot of bussing.

Says who? Seriously I so bussed my scum partner day 1 and on page 1 especially when Xtom was my scum partner in a game.
Please stop with WIFOM I can just show cause again how it could be contrarily.

[farside22]

@ farside:

My theory suggestion:

lynching is less dangerous to the town than imprinting. If we were to lynch without imprinting, the worst that happens is we're down to 7 townies and 4 scum and have a wagon's worth of information.
If we imprint without lynching, we get all sorts of random bits of information that will be genuinely hard to piece together, and worse case scenario is that we permanently give scum abilities.

Thus I'm in favour of a lynch and very few if any at all imprints.

If I was going to imprint someone, I'd like it to be someone who is affected by the result of the lynch. So if we imprint someone who are are pretty sure is scum or town depending on the DN flip, I'd be for that. But randomly imprinting 3 people who we jsut kinda reckon are town WILL lead to scum PRs that they will have for the rest of the game and as such is a bad idea, in my humble opinion.

Yeah I'm leaning on lynch today and imprinting 2 players for information purposes right now.

[farside22]

1 last time I'm asking this question. Just 1 last time and if you ignore me again SC I'm changing my vote.
How does DN flip confirm you and elvis's role one way or another?

[farside22]

^^ I mean 5 votes to imprint

I agree with this ^ about messiah. Those that are voting to imprint massiah need to explain why for me. So far the only 2 I heard a geniun reason that are in the lead for imprints is VMD and TheButtonmen


Since SC and EK are so found of using the DN lynch to in a sense clear them if he does flip scum based on trying to push his lynch day 1. Here is my question.
If TheButtonmen is trying to break the game in the town favor on day 1 before the mod puts a stop to the idea why is he not assume townie?
Do you know scum who try to break the game in town's favor often?

@SC: Clearly I'm getting the impression you have never seen a scum buss another scum day 1.

[farside22]

I do not care about trying to clear myself at this point. If you people can't see it, then you are either scum or nothing I say or do will convince you. Judge me for yourself, you shouldn't need my convincing.

Regarding buttonmen, I agree he is probably town, and I think he's the safest person besides me and SC to imprint.

A lot of you trying to clear you and SC is based on WIFOM. But the fact that nothing I said to you thus far in regards to how it is WIFOM makes me wish I could vote you all over again.
I need to read back on DN. For me no matter what DN's role is it doesnt' clear you. I'm starting to feel that SC is just blinded by you and trying to clear him. However him saying he can't see scum having a reason to do this is laughable at best.

[farside22]

It's not WIFOM if you think one of the options has a much better chance of being true.

I realize there is always a chance I'm wrong, I've said so from the beginning, I just think the odds are really in favor of what I think.

And SC's behavior toward me since my original theory has only increased how sure I am.

At this point I wish I had kept my realization to myself because I could have just voted to imprint him and known secretly that he is town without alienating everyone. The thing that really sucks most now is that not only do people not want to imprint either of us, is that people aren't really listening to us. Losing the influence of two town players in a game where 1/3 is scum, is like, really bad. Hopefully as the game progresses though we can look back at the reactions to my theory about me and SC and find the scum easier.

Saying we are town base on not reading your role or looking at the scum role and assuming you have a NK is just assuming. Is this true or not true?
Assuming scum do not buss day 1 on page 1 and seeing players that do this is again assuming.
Being all buddy, buddy and supporting one another based on assumptions like this = scummy.
Let me know if I missed anything with why myself doesn't agree with either of your assesments.

[farside22]

@farside - if buttonman gets credit for trying to break the game in the town's favour, why don't I?

What was your game breaking strategy? I'm sorry it really has been a long day.
Actually Pug was on my pro-town list so

imprint PUG

Basiclly it's pug, buttonman and recknor as my top 3 for imprints

EK 1 scum suspect and resident cheerleader. I need a moment for looking back at DN all the buddying between EK and SC really needs to end. If you're both town you would reconize this isn't winning you any rewards by validating each other. SC already said he is prone to do this.
SC just a follow up. Have you ever been in a game where EK was scum?

[farside22]

@SC: saying that 5 votes to imprint and knowing your own alignment means you know mafia to be part of the imprint wagon is BS.
I give you DN as a possible 1 based on many comments but this is just on bottonman. Heck it's possible that there is 2 but that is the same for the other 2 wagon's going on being 1 to 2 scum on each wagon. Yes this does mean that 0 scum is unlikely I get that.
I swear it drives me freeking bonkers that every post I read is that unless people are siding with you and elvis they are scum or just not listening. Like wow I'm so not allowed to my opinion everyone. I just be mindless and just listen to EK and SC.

[farside22]

@SC: I swear if the next statment I think your about to make is full of WIFOM I will seriously find a way to throw a tomatoe at you in my next post.

[farside22]

Farside there are eight unique people voting to imprint the three top imprint candidates. I am town and not one of them. That makes at least one scum amongst the eight.

Ah I misunderstood I thought you were just talking about Ben's imprint of people not all 3 people with the top score total.
Damn you didn't go the WIFOM I thought you would so no tomato but thanks for trying.

[farside22]

imprint: pug and thebuttonman

Can we make sure to get imprint out of the way too people.
Pug who do you want to see with an imprint and why?

FOS: SC

[farside22]

Come one come all to the WIFOM train that is SC.
Grab a tomato and throw




*sigh*

I seriously would rather lynch ek I have my reason as I think SC is blinded by smooth talk and did something without discussion with the rest of the town which is SCUMMY!!
UGH I'm going to say this once because my brain hurts. If someone kills a player with this power and unless they have the most fabulous reason for this kill they are scum.
No question, no thoughts and just so you know why I believe scum to buss their scum buddy day 1 with this set up is just look to the Open vanilla with 8-4 and is nightless.
It is a classic scum play to buss their scum buddy in that game in order to look town.
Now go look it up and stop with the WIFOM.

vote: EK

[farside22]

If you think it's classic scum play, that I am SCUMMY!!! for doing something without town permission then vote me. I'm here and totally expecting it.

I really expect you to be more rational then this. Listen I have 2 scum suspect right now in mind.
What you did was clearly anti-town and why you feel the need to not discuss this with everyone instead of playing lets make a deal baffles me.

Lets say we lynch starbuck and she doesn't turn up scum. Then what? What glorious plan do you have after that?

[farside22]

Farside, could you be talked into moving that vote to SC?

No because SC just hit on the other person I found scummy which I find unnerving as all hell now.

[farside22]

My case on VMD is more about her flip flop. She keeps bringing up that she finds people scummy who vote for themselves then does it.
She called Thebuttonman scummy for his meta breaking town win scanario and the reason I feel EK with VMD is that EK almost does this coach thing with her which I find off putting and yet doesn't call her scummy.

Plus the whole I think player X is town based on my read is oh so vague.

unvote:
vote: VMD

[farside22]

So vote me, then vote Starbuck.

My thought vote VMD then we can argue who we find scummier between starbuck and EK if VMD flips scum.

[farside22]

While I appreciate the sentiment, I think a good deal of my suspicion of Vala comes from her attempted linking of lewarcher to Starbuck over DN to Starbuck. It's important to know SB's alignment, I think.

Why aren't you voting me?

I'm starting to think misguided person and stubborn.
You don't want to listen to anyone which is really annoying. Again I'm going with the you being blinded by EK too much on this to think anything bad.
I'm saying VMD first. There is a lot of reason's to look to her and post arguments on who she is scum with.
Again her whole reaction to Thebuttonman's theories was a complete scum tell. I feel better with that thought in my head.

[farside22]

Ah yes you voted him for killing the game.

And you stated the following:

No, it's not. But I am placing a vote on you for trying to ruin the spirit of the game. That, and arguing over the mechanics is boring, and I am more than willing to place a dubious vote or two in order to start some actual scumhunting.

Which doesn't sound town at all as people should try and discuss this set up and what best served town.
Voting on someone who is "killing the game" is still scummy
Also this:

Okay, first of all,

unvote

. It's clearly served as much of its purpose as it is going to.

You make yourself sound very dangerous to town when its in a game with a very very small margin of error. Also does this mean you will lurk / leave the game the moment you stop having fun?

That was not my intention. However, try to see it my way: IMO, intentionally breaking the game is, essentially, cheating. Never mind that the mod shouldn't have left the game breakable in the first place, it's just something that I cannot do in good conscience. I want to win, but I want to win fairly, and yes, I WILL leave the game if we are not playing fairly. Scum deserves the chance to win, the mod deserves the chance to see the game play out the way they intended for it to, and town deserves the chance to kick scum's asses fair and square... WITHOUT having to resort to cheating.

This reads let me cover all my base's.

And I've already said my piece about this so-called "flip-flopping", too. I didn't want people to vote themselves, but people voted themselves anyway, so I said frak it, I'll vote myself too. If you can't beat 'em, join 'em. Again, why is this so hard to understand? You seem to be trying entirely too hard here.

Calling people out on it and saying it's scummy then saying when in rome do as the roman's is just wishy washy and yes it's backtracking.
I haven't self imprinted. You know why? I don't see it as a point right now. I know my role and I want to look for scum the best way I can right now and not worry about just me, myself and I.

[farside22]

I haven't self imprinted. You know why? I don't see it as a point right now. I know my role and I want to look for scum the best way I can right now and not worry about just me, myself and I.

As an aside, I still don't see this as a 'me myself and I' type thing. It is in your benefit that whoever if imprinted is on your side. Regardless of anyone else, you know YOUR role. If you're town, you want a town to be imprinted. you KNOW you're a town. If you're scum, you want scum to get an imprint.
Truthfully, I think NOT voting to give yourself an imprint is more scummy that voting to give yourself an imprint, if anything. I don't read into it at all, really, but if I had to pick one over the other, its not as big a deal to mafia which mafia get the imprint, as long as ONE of them do. The only way for a townie (at this point) to be 100% sure a townie gets an imprint is to imprint themselves.

[/quote]

Meh I know the whole town thing I said this myself earlier in my larger post but for me it's I would rather scum hunt then worry about getting an imprint.

[farside22]

I feel like we need to get people imprinted THEN decide on a lynch.

My vote will either go to Starbuck or SC. It's currently 8:3. If we lynch wrong, it'll be 7:3, and that'll put us into lylo tomorrow if scum gets a killing imprint.

If 1 of the 2 (and yes I say only 2 imprints) kills a person they will be lynched. How hard is this to understand?
I swear I said this before and no one is listening.

[farside22]

Yes. Yes I did. And I would do it again. My vote had everything to do with wanting to play the game the way it was intended to be played. If you're getting anything else from that, you're just being paranoid. And while there's nothing particularly wrong with paranoia (as established earlier I'm rather paranoid myself), when you're on the receiving end it is rather irksome.

A vote for someone trying to break the game and doing it so the town wins and you think voting him really is a good plan?
A vote means you believe someone is scum.

I had a long list of things that bothered me most of which is how you say I get town vibes from you but don't say why. You said it to about 3 people to the point it lost all meaning. And your scum list where you list 3 people on the buttom because they didn't contribute is someone not looking for scum but looking fur lurkers.

[farside22]

@farside

Say you imprint someone. They are scum and get the ability to kill. They don't use it that night and claim they got doc power and it did nothing.

Now they have a NK. They can use it another night to frame someone, or just use it when we thought we had some lynches up our sleeves.

I know you said something about 100 imprints to the same person but what about a second imprint to the same person does it make them go insane?

@Farside: What if it's a town vig?

If anyone gets the ability to kill that is town they don't use it. Seriously are you looking to excuse someone from performing a hit later?

[farside22]

Oh I get all that but my thought is more simpler.
Giving in imprint to a town could give us more information.
Giving in imprint to scum could mean giving them a kill.
imprint 2 players today see what the results are. Then we do not imprints the next day and hunt for scum. Then if we find the 2 we imprinted as not scum again we imprint them again.

I see no harm in imprinting 2 players for informational purposes at this point.

[farside22]

Well, you could have 2 scum players who then build up an excessive amount of powers, including the ability to kill. You'd be risking two full lynches.

It just doesn't make sense to me to do that when we have a lot of info and a scum flip. It's game on. Let's imprint if we run into trouble.

Now it just sounds like you would rather keep the town uninformed.
Tell me with the 2 people who have the most votes to get imprinted what about them makes you think they are scum?

[farside22]

@SC I looked at your comments on how you tried to break the game.

Thebuttonman stated this:
post 55
Then you stated this:

post 65

Reading the 2 buttonman was looking for something that more favorable to town where you found the reason it wouldn't work by sending a PM to the mod. TheButton still had the idea first reading the read. Anyone reading that just will go into the well he asked the mod what would happen in this case which isnt' really game breaking in my view.

[farside22]

Well, you could have 2 scum players who then build up an excessive amount of powers, including the ability to kill. You'd be risking two full lynches.

It just doesn't make sense to me to do that when we have a lot of info and a scum flip. It's game on. Let's imprint if we run into trouble.

Also imprinting later in the game is bad.

3 scum vs 8 town right now.

chances of town receiving an imprint are higher. Waiting to see if we mislynch. How many are you willing to take that chance on before imprinting? How long to you keep people uninformed and based on theory of nightless? Then it walks into my theory of scum bussing day 1 trying to look town and leaving the town believing them to be town bussing their scum buddy.

[farside22]

11)Farside: replaces in and says almost nothing about DN, never mentions his plan. Focuses almost entirely on me and SC.

You and SC said it all and I wasn't going to repeat it all over again how bad a plan it was and senseless.
But please keep ignoring my point about what I asked SC about not imprinting and how town is more likely to get imprinted over scum since you're so fond of being a mouthpiece for him why don't you explain how my logic is flawed for imprinting.

[farside22]

@ SC

Could you quote three (3) posts where you feel Starbuck is defending DN?

I can do this and placed in bold those defense's from starbuck about DN

On DeathNote
I definitely don't like his pressure of trying to make everyone choose between either one of his plans.

I've played with DeathNote before and it very much seems like he was just trying to get ideas out there. I'm not getting a completely scummy feeling from him

.

http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 08#2007508

You know SC...I have DeathNote in my null category right now, but I love how you jump so quick because I mentioned his name in a semi-positive faction and yours and elvis's in not such a positive faction.

This quick overreaction just makes you look scummier.

http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 61#2007561

I don't feel I misrepped you at all. That's exactly how it felt when I read it. Also, if you read the rules of the game, you would have known that the rogue actives could retain their powers. It surprises me, even after your blatant posts about reading over the rules carefully, that you admit to not doing so.

There was plenty of ideas and theories being thrown around at the time of your vote on DeathNote. I agree that not everyone should be imprinted and he sees now why this is a bad idea, but why must it only be after YOU point out that its anti-town or scummy?

You are making this situation to be entirely about you, when it's not.

At that point, DeathNote made a suggestion. Later on, yes, he wanted to limit people to two options which I find scummy, but at that point he just merely gave an idea. You blew it completely out of proportion.

I did paraphrase you because I was taking notes in notepad as I caught up. You still only semi-conceded to the idea AFTER SC said it was be decent, but NOT until that point.



If you read the rest of my post, instead of picking apart what you wanted, you would see that I did state my opinion on his idea and that it really wouldn't be a good one.

I also have already stated that I have a null tell currently on DeathNote, due to meta reasons.

http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 95#2008095

unvote:
vote: starbuck

[farside22]

@ SC

Could you quote three (3) posts where you feel Starbuck is defending DN?

I can do this and placed in bold those defense's from starbuck about DN

Awsome now SC has two mouth pieces as you and elvis answer questions for him....

No I still think EK is scum but it's easy to look for to anyone really.

[farside22]

But please keep ignoring my point about what I asked SC about not imprinting and how town is more likely to get imprinted over scum since you're so fond of being a mouthpiece for him

Oh the irony...

Most of it came here by the way from SC:

http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 58#2008558

[farside22]

I love EK trying to make a list like that but you forgot about VMD and all in which SC did point out her defending DN as well. So yeah it's things like that that I believe VMD and EK to be scum together.
I know outting all your scum buddies is a no, no EK but please if your going to follow's someone else's logic at least make sure you dont' forget anyone.

[farside22]

VMD connection time:

I want to get it out there that I'm also giving DN the benefit of the doubt for now due to meta reasons; I have read bits and pieces of many games on this website, including a couple that DN was in, and it seems that he always acts like this, and almost always gets lynched for it early on in the game. That said, I certainly don't want to give him an imprint any time soon. People with anti-town metas are far too much of a wildcard to risk something like that.

Using meta to not want to vote.

SC, post 184 wrote:
<--- is calling right now Starbuck scum with Deathnote. Write that down, keep it safe, check it on reveal.

...Really? When she's only made one post (not counting her "I'll post later" post)? I had a firmly neutral read on 183.

Now that DN is scum what happens if starbuck is scum with this note VMD?

SC, post 240 wrote:
She's defending him, but she doesn't want to be SEEN to be defending him.


Not what I saw at all. I took it at face value and read it as she had a meta-based tell on him. She uses the words "overaggressive" and "overreacted" in relation to your and elvis' reactions to DN. That doesn't seem like she's defending him to me. I read 183 as, "Yeah, this guy isn't the towniest guy ever, but the way these guys reacted to him seemed scummy and would seem scummy to me regardless of DN's alignment. BTW, DN always acts like this, lol."

More defense of starbuck.

More general thoughts on the Starbuck vs SC/Elvis thing: The overall fight looks to me like a town vs town squabble more than it does a scum vs town or scum vs scum distancing squabble. If there were scum involved I'm fairly certain I'd be smelling a rat from someone involved right now, and instead all I smell is a lot of righteous indignation all around. Try not to tunnel too much, guys, it could be bad news for all of us. >_<

Any reason why you thought this?

@SC: I wouldn't be particularly opposed to your lynch order plan. Both you and DN have some substantial connections between yourselves and other players and knowing the way either or both of you flip would probably be great for untangling this game's web a little. DN is starting to get on even my nerves -- I'm just flat-out running out of patience for him and if he's going to be like this all game it might be better to just get rid of him and if he is scum, then hey, icing on the cake.

The maybe I will vote for him with no reason approach.

I wouldn't necessarily auto-call you town if DN flips scum, though. If I were scumbuddies with DN, he'd be a laughably easy bus and considering the count on DN now I'm fairly sure scum knows that. (Speaking of the count, he's at L-1 and that's why I'm not voting him now.)

EK and SC started this whole questioning so you still think both of them or bussing now or just SC?

Originally I wanted to excuse him because of his meta and a hope that, if scum, he would unintentionally out his scumbuddies. When I finally got back around to this game I realized, you know what, if he really wanted to, he could change his meta. As he's acting now, he's little more than dead weight to us.

And instead of actual scum hunting reason for voting lets throw in meta again.

There is connections with DN and starbucks just crawling with VMD there.

[farside22]

So?

Her defense is she feels farside is pro-town.

Still no compelling reason.

Her imprinting someone she feels is pro-town is weird?

For no compelling reason.

Now starbuck says farside is scumhunting.

I disagree. For the most part she's just been arguing with me and SC and saying WIFOM a bunch of times. Recently she has begun to look at VMD. That's all I've seen.

I'm actually sort of surprised farside voted for Starbuck. She went from repeating "elvis and SC are scum, everything they say is crap sandwich (including how starbuck is scum)... and elvis is buddies with VMD" to "Look how vmd and starbuck are connected to deathnote! vote starbuck."

I never said you were both scum. I said one of you was and I have even gone further in it calling SC blind to you as I believe you (EK) to be that scum. And I didn't say anything about the SB case till recently
Thanks for the misrep.

[farside22]

But what about the second attempt - Iam created a 'if noone dies in three days it's a draw' rule and I suggest being able to never imprint anyone and if things look like we're in lylo and going to lose we just vote to no kill 3 times and it's a draw

I do see the draw rule as not really a town favorable thing. As what good does a draw do for the town that it does not do for the scum


Also I would like the answers to my question I asked in post: 556



@buttonman: VMD says she has a neutral read from 183. I"m asking if SC's not on SB changes anything on her view.

[farside22]

Not sure if star's telling the truth so I will wait for mod confirmation
If star is town I'm voting EK, if star is scum I'm voting VMD.
Anyone want to question why just read back and you will see many points I had on both.

[farside22]

We don't know what type of imprint a player is going to get. Why the assumption that all imprints do is get cop roles.
So the idea of someone checking EK and SC maybe futile. I almost want to laugh that they are now saying well maybe we should imprint people

[farside22]

Because I've been railing about farside scum and button scum all day?

Imprinting people after Starbuck's flip is better than doing it before her flip.

Why?

[farside22]

Because I've been railing about farside scum and button scum all day?

Imprinting people after Starbuck's flip is better than doing it before her flip.

Why?

Wait nvm I read that as you wanted to imprint before star's flip.

[farside22]

To be honest, Starbuck, I'll learn that we were right about one scum and wrong about another and that's better than random chance.

You need to allow people to be wrong.

You need to learn that there are 10 other people playing this game besides you and Elvis.

QFT ^ I almost, almost thought about asking for a replacement do to the maryter attitude from both of them. It's almost like banging your head against a wall when someone doesn't listen to your opinion which is just as valid.
The only reason I don't see SC scum right now is I can't imagine a scum player taking the chance to hammer and ask for his own lynch like that.
Granted it could be an AtE but it's still hard to imagine. However EK has not done anything I found townie without using either assumptions or some of the WIFOM about the role and the DN flip which I disputed and get ignored mainly by her.

[farside22]

I almost, almost thought about asking for a replacement do to the maryter attitude from both of them.

Me too. I can't stand people who go out of their way to make mafia games unenjoyable for the rest of the people that are playing.

Starbuck, this is totally out of line. If I've made the game unenjoyable for you, I'm sorry, but I didn't do it on purpose. Please realize you've made the game just as horrible for me as I have for you. Who is being the martyr now?

And as for farside... she replaced INTO this, so I don't know how she didn't know what she was getting into.

Can we not take this game so personally? GOD.

I replaced into the game because I love Dollhouse!!
The rest I will just discuss after the game is over.

[farside22]

as promised

vote: EK

imprint: TheButtonman

[farside22]

It's comments like this:

I also think farside is scum since she vote starbuck and then commiserated with her how horrible me and SC were and how we were the root of all evil. farside was on that lynch too.

I don't take as personal but I think EK is scum.
starbuck pointed out the misrep's the EK did and does nothing to back up these comments with proof. It like throwing out shit to see what sticks. She has ignored comments made by others again I find this scummy because either (a) she's not reading everything (which EK does) or (b) she can't answer the question or comment without sounding even more scummy.

Case in point. She pointed out that list of questions that SC pointed out. She misrep's buttonman's plan here:

Basically theres a whole lot a scum and not that many town, thus voting is tilted in scum favour, so by randomizing we remove that. Now if we randomly chose a player day 1 and repeatedly imprint them and vote NL until they find scum we have a 66% of winning right now and honestly with a 2-1 town to scum ratio that's a hell of a lot better win % then playing the game straight up.

This is wrong. And scummy.

There are 4 scum and 8 town. You're making it sound like town is in the minority. We are twice as strong at the scum right now.

Calling it scummy only looking at the 2-1 and scum favor.

Then we have the list that SC brought up about EK and him

So, anyone who thinks me and SC are scum buddies should be able to defend how this is at all likely to happen, or present a different set of events that they think could have happened.

I know I did answer that list and before this quote another play had put their notes as well but both get ignored.

Some of the other reactions I got from people have not seemed pro-town. They have seemed like panicked attempts to stop the town from confirming two town players.

Okay now that I pointed out the role and how it was written to the scum and how scum mods do not automatically put in their role PM's that scum have a kill between them how do you figure this clears you and SC?

I don't think I've ever gotten a scum PM that doesn't specifically lay out the night actions. Every time I have been able to kill, my PM has said something like "each night your team can target one player for the night kill."

I haven't seen PM's that don't mention the NK if the scum have one.

If you have seen this, I'm interested to see it.

I gave her a link to one in which I found scum didn't know if they all had a NK except 1 player, no response there.

Well, SC, both you and me have wanted DN dead since page 1, so it would be reasonable to atleast feel a little more townie about us if DN flips scum. The fact that nobody even wants to admit that we

probably

aren't scum with DN should be a sign.

It's unfortunate that some people who I think are probably town are as opposed to everything we say as the scum are.

wants to ignore the idea that scum bus their own scum partner

farside is saying she has a simpler thought about imprinting and the plans and such. But, you know what is the simplest plan of all?

Lynch the people who look like scum.

Lynch the people who protected scum.

look how quickly that changes:

If starbuck flips town, I think we should discuss and imprint a few people (as many as we feel comfortable), and no-lynch and go to night.

I'm perfectly aware that I will never get an imprint in this game if starbuck flips town. That doesn't matter. And I don't think SC should either. That's fine.

says this:

So obviously defending DN and his plan is the scummiest move there. We have:

but:

Farside: replaces in and says almost nothing about DN, never mentions his plan. Focuses almost entirely on me and SC.
farside wrote:
DN: is the first person to make me want to smack my head via post 172 - congrats! Okay now that my sarcasm is out of the way. How on earth do you say that someone is not scum but not town either? LOL

I'm on the bottom of her list for not bringing the plan up or say anthing about the plan, but lew is one step above me for saying even less and then is SB.

She completely miss's Star's town list and twice now I caught her trying to misrep myself with no proof.

[farside22]

Ugh this is what I get for going back on notes based on something EK said.

I'm doing a catalogue of people's reactions to DN's plan... and the more I read I am starting to think that Messiah is not a DN buddy. He WAS one of the people who kept mentioning that DN was scummy even when others look like they were purposely avoiding.

Feeling better about Messiah.

Great stuff. Let me start this by saying that if all scum did was ignore their scum buddy the hunting scum would be really easy.
Lets do the list of what scum can do:
buss their buddy
ignore their buddy
defend their buddy

messiah:
Far too much of it seems to be that you think she is "obsessed with" and "defends" DN, but I don't see the huge scumtell there. The only way that her defense of DN could be scummy in my eyes is if DN was scum, but you say that you only think DN is scum in the first place because starbuck defended him.

So you're saying starbuck is scum because she mentions DN a lot but has a neutral read on him? I don't get the scumtell here at all.

follows someone else logic

I really don't like this post. It seems like he is trying to force the town to choose either empowering everyone or no one and ignores the third option of imprinting only a few people (which is what Elvis actually suggested).

I didn't realize it at the time, but this is a very good point. He presents a false dilemma, leaving out the option that is best for the town. This coupled with his push to proceed with a plan that would most likely be harmful to the town is a good reason to

vote: DeathNote

I looked at DN and his one of the reason's was the above.

unvote, vote: DeathNote for the reasons stated in these posts, and the "Just policy lynch me and get it over with Crying or Very sad" thing.

Red alert! Red Alert

I'm down for a Starbuck lynch. I believe I said that I would find her defense of DN scummy if he flipped scum, and I stand by that. I'm going to allow her the opportunity to post before hammering since she hasn't gotten a chance to respond to anything yet.

Really? Really? No not really I just have the quote her to prove in fact you called it not a scum tell at all.

unvote:
vote: Messiah

fos: EK

[farside22]

Uh, no. I never said it wasn't a scum tell. I said it would only be scummy if DN was scum, which he was.

The only way that her defense of DN could be scummy in my eyes is if DN was scum

Alright let me ask then since your here. Do you still think only scum defend or is it possible for them to buss and ignore? Do you think SC pushing more on star over DN for most of the day 1 is scummy in retrospect?

[farside22]

messiah: One last question. Why did you hammer starbuck when no imprints had occurred?

[farside22]

SC is still town.

Something occurred to me about deathnote. He was scum who pushed a plan giving all the scum power roles. IMO opinion that increases the chance scum knew they wouldn't have a NK unless they got an imprint. Because DN was pushing so depserately for imprints. Which increases the chance that SC and me are town, once again.

I am not in the mood to argue with farside or buttonmen at this point (I will answer specific questions later if I can stomach it), but the way farside is putting my quotes up against each other like they conflict is stupid and scummy. Of course my opinions are going to change according to how things happen in the game, and if I reread things that change my mind. farside is on full-tilt scum mode. I've seen her as scum before and she is a shameless scum player. Ask her why she voted starbuck yesterday if she thinks me and SC are such scum who pushed a mislynch onto starbuck.

Way to not show quotes again. scum is scum sweetie of course what you say looks scummy because you are scum.

[farside22]

Once again farside: hammering without imprints is not a bad thing. It's actually a good thing. Now that we have starbuck's flip it helps us decide who to imprint. Imprinting before a lynch is imprinting blindly. The correct way to do things is to lynch, look at the flip, imprint and then no lynch.

Lets see you want to imprint in the hopes someone will check you/or SC but didn't want an imprint for anyone to check starbuck?
Do I have that right
As for dn's push that is more assumptions. That's like saying you know what was in his head when he hatched the plan in the first place.

[farside22]

SC is still town.

Something occurred to me about deathnote. He was scum who pushed a plan giving all the scum power roles. IMO opinion that increases the chance scum knew they wouldn't have a NK unless they got an imprint. Because DN was pushing so depserately for imprints. Which increases the chance that SC and me are town, once again.

I am not in the mood to argue with farside or buttonmen at this point (I will answer specific questions later if I can stomach it), but the way farside is putting my quotes up against each other like they conflict is stupid and scummy. Of course my opinions are going to change according to how things happen in the game, and if I reread things that change my mind. farside is on full-tilt scum mode. I've seen her as scum before and she is a shameless scum player. Ask her why she voted starbuck yesterday if she thinks me and SC are such scum who pushed a mislynch onto starbuck.

Way to not show quotes again. scum is scum sweetie of course what you say looks scummy because you are scum.

I'm not spending hours quoting you right now.

Why did you help lynch starbuck when you've been spending all your time fighting me and SC and calling us scum? We were pushing starbuck, you shoul dhave never agreed to lynch starbuck if you think we're scum.

I looked back and saw her defending DN and a lot of it was very suspicious. It's a hard thing to ignore and a part of me had town vibes on SC with his williness to allow himself to be lynched to prove a point which gave me pause to look back.
Now can you stop acting like my one vote was all it took to lynch her. If my plan was just to lynch you or SC I could have stuck to that easily with his hammer on DN and all the votes.

[farside22]

unvote:
vote: EK

I'm getting a sense of being desperate with the inablity to prove a case.
mmmm scum lets get to lynching.

[farside22]

Once again farside: hammering without imprints is not a bad thing. It's actually a good thing. Now that we have starbuck's flip it helps us decide who to imprint. Imprinting before a lynch is imprinting blindly. The correct way to do things is to lynch, look at the flip, imprint and then no lynch.

Lets see you want to imprint in the hopes someone will check you/or SC but didn't want an imprint for anyone to check starbuck?
Do I have that right
As for dn's push that is more assumptions. That's like saying you know what was in his head when he hatched the plan in the first place.

No, not right.

Why should we imprint before seeing a flip? What if that flip would change our thoughts on imprinting?

If we are sure enough to lynch somebody, then we should lynch then look at the flip and change our imprints accordingly and then no-lynch.

I was sure enough about starbuck to think lynching her was better than no-lynching and imprinting.

Lets say in theory we get a cop imprint. Them checking the lynchee can prove town/scum. So I see no harm in imprinting before a flip and after a flip we can only imprint someone before a flip so why no lynch.
It should all depend on the lynch.

As for you're quote on SB I explained my position on that.

Finally:

I'm actually sort of surprised farside voted for Starbuck. She went from repeating "elvis and SC are scum, everything they say is crap sandwich (including how starbuck is scum)... and elvis is buddies with VMD" to "Look how vmd and starbuck are connected to deathnote! vote starbuck."

Please show where I called both of you scum. Show where I said everything you both said was crap and commented on your SB case (which you just proved I never said anything till that post). I'm pointing out budding I noticed how is that not scum hunting?

I also think farside is scum since she vote starbuck and then commiserated with her how horrible me and SC were and how we were the root of all evil. farside was on that lynch too.

I voted for starbuck based on the interactions I saw as well. Along with VMD because it all gave me pause. As for the commiserating I don't want to discuss those thoughts till the end of the game because even though a part is game related some is more about trying not to ruin the game. However I feel if I don't say this you will just bring it up again.
I think a lot of what your doing is scum motivated EK. A lot of the ignoring and misrep I don't see as personal but scum motivated
As for SC I see it has him playing maryter not listening or reasoning but I could be wrong on my read on him and it could be him using AtE.

[farside22]

hmm I just realized I'm assuming when and what with how the imprint works.

Mod:

When someone is imprinted do they receive notification about their ability during the day or at night?

[farside22]

imprint: Pug

I think we should have at least 2 players imprinted.

[farside22]

Basing this just on DN's lynch is not all there is to finding scum. Look at star she wasn't on there and was town. For all people know there was 1 or 2 scum on the DN wagon.

As for no lynch I think if we were going to imprint it should have happened yesterday.
PS: I don't care for reck complete turn around based on a vote pattern.
Please explain reck how you find EK town with her constant (3 players now) that she has misrepresented.

[farside22]

Please explain reck how you find EK town with her constant (3 players now) that she has misrepresented.

lol

Who did I misrep farside?

Me, star and buttonman.
I pointed out your misrep's but you keep ignoring them.

[farside22]

Here were the few concern's I had with SC

sc:
post http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 31#2007531

He pushes more on starbuck lynch then DN in the first few pages

http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 58#2008558

He tries to use her attackes on EK then also ties in the DN defense.

http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 18#2008618

Even says he never called DN scum and pushes more on starbuck.
However this quote is the nail to me:

3) Why is DN scum?

Because in this theory of the game, Starbuck is defending a buddy. I totally admit my case is absolutely dependent on Starbuck being scum. But mafia is about finding the informed minority, and I'm telling you that is part of it.

Basically if starbuck comes up town then DN is cleared. Which we now know that star was town and DN is scum.

Seriously good posting. Despite calling my ideas crazy. Or perhaps because of that . Crazy but true is my speciality.

To be honest, my case against DN dies if Starbuck is scum and vice versa. My main point about Starbuck is that she's acting bizarrey towards Deathnote. Can't see much reason for scum --> town unless it's a weird way of buddying, so I'm sticking with scum --> scum.

This is where I feel confused. It's going to leave me with many thoughts based on SC's alignment reading this again and again and wondering.

Ok - different plan. Lynch me, imprint elvis. If I flip scum, lynch elvis. That would only cost you 1 day with imprinted scum. If I flip town, lynch Starbuck or Deathnote and imprint elvis again.

Basically when everyone disagreed with SC's plan for doing the imprints he doesnt' want to imprint anyone then.

I have a suggestion. Lynch DN, imprint me. If I'm wrong, and he's town, I'll be the next lynch, and I'll tell you all what my power was and where I used it and what I found. If I'm right, we lynch Starbuck and imprint me and elvis.

Trying to clear himself based on DN's flip.

My answer to how DN flip clears them.


http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.php?p=2015747

reasoning on DN is all WIFOM. Awesome and finally

unvote, vote deathnote

executive decision. Let's continue this after a flip.

And the hammer.
There was after the comment from DN that SC called DN scum but he continued to hammer starbuck in this case now looking back it almost seems that SC was trying to get SB lynched first over and over again.

Unvote:
Vote: SC

Fos: EK

[farside22]

@EK: This is only the last time I'm showing something I said 2 times already.

http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 00#2021200

[farside22]

You talked about my vote on SB (starbuck) I was saying I already explain my reasoning on it.

Since your first post you've been saying stuff like:

farside wrote:
I really don't like that both SC and Elvis imprint each other too much buddy, buddy for me. I don't care if you know someone in the game giving an imprint without a reason is just as scummy to me as doing a vote without a reason.

ORLY??
First of all this quote was after 3 pages:

Then I read further and said the following:

Did you not call him scummy not but 2 pages ago for trying to break the game?
So far I want to just FOS: EK for that 180 on buttonmen

bah reading SC post about EK in 215 I get the impression he is just impressed with EK and ignoring things that he shouldn't.

post 231 I will say a lot of this is WIFOM but some isn't but I will be happy to answer this
1) I think one of you is scum based on my read
2) you could it would be easy to explain later but it's a trail and hard to say if scum would do this but again I don't like random imprints from people
3) meh? I would like this rephrased
4) he does and there is no reason for scum to not realize this as I showed
5) what?
6) what?

I think you are putting too much stock into believing elvis is town were I don't see this as EK town read so far.
Then I have that sick thought that you are trying to use this a ploy as scum you may not be partner with EK and hope it will lynch town tomorrow. Call this lack of trust in either of you. As I said reading both of you I feel one is scum and EK is who I lean as scum in this case over you.

By the way I did find a game that didn't mention the scum all had a NK and but they could kill but it got ignored too.

Then lets get to why you want to clear yourself so much and how it is called WIFOM:

A lot of you trying to clear you and SC is based on WIFOM. But the fact that nothing I said to you thus far in regards to how it is WIFOM makes me wish I could vote you all over again.
I need to read back on DN. For me no matter what DN's role is it doesnt' clear you. I'm starting to feel that SC is just blinded by you and trying to clear him. However him saying he can't see scum having a reason to do this is laughable at best.

As for starbucks comment about you both I did say this early:

I swear it drives me freeking bonkers that every post I read is that unless people are siding with you and elvis they are scum or just not listening. Like wow I'm so not allowed to my opinion everyone. I just be mindless and just listen to EK and SC.

As statements like this, especially the bolded that made me say that you thought everything we said was crap. "Lack of trust in either of you." And saying one or both of us must be scum. That destroys our credibility, and ecourages people not to listen to us.

You expect people to trust anyone in mafia? Really???? Even my town read of button I feel off about it when I see do things. Till I feel 100% certain on anyone I don't trust really anyone.

And then you threw me and SC under the bus:

How is that throwing a person under the bus exactly?

[farside22]

So far you (EK) are trying to say your town based on a misinteruptation of a scum PM (which again I proved is an assumption anyone would make and went as far as showing PM's sent to scum that don't tell them all they have a nk). To saying that when DN flips that should prove you town.
The final thing I have issue with is DN wanting to imprint both of you so bad could be both scum wanting to do a NK with just one or two more mislynches it's all possible but lets ask the mod:

Mod:

If 2 mafia get imprinted do they both get a NK or does only one get to perform a NK?

[farside22]

So far you (EK) are trying to say your town based on a misinteruptation of a scum PM (which again I proved is an assumption anyone would make and went as far as showing PM's sent to scum that don't tell them all they have a nk). To saying that when DN flips that should prove you town and talking about how scum buss their scum buddies and yes on day 1 and yes on page 1. Why the hell not?
The final thing I have issue with is

SC

wanting to imprint both of you so bad could be both scum wanting to do a NK with just one or two more mislynches it's all possible but lets ask the mod:

Mod:

If 2 mafia get imprinted do they both get a NK or does only one get to perform a NK?

Sorry I needed to do a fix. In the quote is the correct intials and put into bold.

[farside22]

Mod: If 2 mafia get imprinted do they both get a NK or does only one get to perform a NK?

Once I get an answer to this I will say what I feel on imprints a bit more.
Right now I'm thinking you're trying to stop a scum from being lynched with the lets just imprint and no lynch right now.

Trust is important in the game of mafia. Not blind trust. Not for no reason. But I think it's important to trust people you think are town. Because even if you are wrong, giving out a little trust is often helpful in finding out if you're wrong. You can always reevaluate later. That's the way I play, anyway. And you may not play that way, but my way is perfectly valid. I saw a town tell on SC, and so I pointed it out. His play since then has only made me more sure.

His play? Which play is that the one where he pushes for a SB lynch from the start saying she is defending DN and if SB comes up scum then DN is scum.
Now in retrospect if SB had been lynched his whole ploy looks almost like he was helping DN by a mislynch. Are you going to say you didn't see him push the starbuck case more at the start of day 1 over DN now?
What about your play? Lets see 2 mispre's you just had to back track and never quote. You trying to clear yourself and SC based on WIFOM.
I"m sure not trying to get people to imprint me as much as you and SC do. I would rather they feel I was townie they keep pushing it down their throats that something that is assumption makes me town.
The only good thing I saw was your comment to DN after that it's not much else but follow me and look at this list where I put farside at the bottom but lew said even less about DN.

farside wrote:
bah reading SC post about EK in 215 I get the impression he is just impressed with EK and ignoring things that he shouldn't.


Isn't that an assumption? I'm sure I could find more, but I don't want to waste time. Just picked the nearest quote.

Here is the difference between my comment and yours. I said I get an impression. You state your assumptions as fact.

[farside22]

Much to reply to but I lose the motivation every time I start a post. Farside, your point aobut the difference = stating as fact rather than assumption is a bad one.

Why is it bad? You and EK have been shoving the whole scum would read their role there fore we are town BS at the start and the whole if DN flip is scum we are town BS as fact. So tell me how your point is more valid?

And finally, even if you didn't agree with any of that, how does changing to a no-lynch imprint help me out if I'm scum? There's still a lynch required tomorrow, it's not likely to lead to a mislynch. I personally will not get an imprint any time soon. So why does it benefit me to see power roles assigned?

Why was this never thought of when starbuck was being lynched? Why did this thought never come out especially when I stated the 8 vs 3 in town favor.

Holy strawman Batman! SC makes decent points about the theory of imprints. You spin it as him trying to keep town uninformed when frankly I see at most a theory disagreement; he seems to think that the risk is greater than the reward of info.

Excuse me but this is the same person who wants to imprint now and didn't seem to want to do it after DN's lynch so I'm going to ask question about his lets lynch and not imprint vs lets no lynch and imprint flip flop.
We do not know what the imprints are. Everyone seems to be hoping for a cop. Damn even I hope for a cop but there is other roles out there to wonder about and what if they don't help? Then what? I also asked when and how many lynches and frankly he was willing to lynch himself and not have an imprint day 2 and now day 3 he wants and imprint is shifty as all hell.

[farside22]

Because there was no reason to risk it when we had an excellent read on scum. Of course - with hindsight the read was less than excellent, but so it goes. Are you pretty sure you've found scum? Good! Lynch them. Are you not that sure? Good! Imprint. That has been my argument all through D2 and D3.

I still have not heard a single reason why no lynch with no imprint is better. Whenever we lynch we as town should take advantage of getting info at night with an imprint.
Yesterday you were saying lynch me don't imprint then lynch starbuck.
You're drive to not imprint can cost the town too. Now it's lets no lynch and imprint which I said yesterday what was the harm of a imprint yesterday.
The only thing I heard was it could change our view on who we imprint.
We guess what I still want to imprint Pug and Button. The only people I changed my view on is Reck and Plum and that was after the day 1 lynch.

So I ask one last time what was the harm yesterday to do an imprint before we lynched?

[farside22]

Now, in regards to your voting me, were you always going to vote me on a SB townflip? Am I the most likely in your eyes to flip scum or just the suspect with the biggest wagon? Do you still think elvis and VMD are scum?

You were pushing on starbuck more during the day then DN and even went so far as to say this:

3) Why is DN scum?

Because in this theory of the game, Starbuck is defending a buddy. I totally admit my case is absolutely dependent on Starbuck being scum. But mafia is about finding the informed minority, and I'm telling you that is part of it.

That in retrospect of SB flip makes you look scummy.

Still think EK is scummy not sure on VMD right now. I still have mixed views on her play.

When she replaced in, D1 and DN was on the block:
farside wrote:
I think have 2 people imprinted or 3 imprinted with a no lynch is best too.

It's interesting that this was her first take on the game, on a day that would have saved scum from a lynch. What changed to make her think we should be lynching and imprinting on the same day?

read my words more carefully because it was 2 imprinted with a lynch or 3 imprinted with a no lynch that was discussed.
Which I was more clear here:

Yeah I'm leaning on lynch today and imprinting 2 players for information purposes right now.

And yes I agrue with you and SC becuase I find you scum EK. I already stated my reason's and again you seem to ignored that day 2 if I wanted to lynch SC it would have been incredibly easy to do so with him asking people to vote for him.

Honestly I wanted to know about imprints before a hammer on DN and I still think even reading SC's comment that not imprinting with a lynch makes no sense.
We could have had a cop day 1 with an imprint and someone could have checked SB. No one thinks about this and that is what I do not get.
Going over EK's points
1. As for this one there was lots to still talk about. You and SC are the most vocal and I was not expecting a hammer without everyone talking aobut how they felt on imprints.
Oh look who takes that out of everyone's hand SC!
2. is false
3. you're number 1 suspect was DN for most of the day SC Number 1 was starbuck. I notice you seem to not notice this
4. You did misrep. How is that scummy to call you out for misrep?

[farside22]

Also I would like to point something out that SC is using the terms least likely when I talk about scum bussing.
However just on this page with games done and over I have 3 cases in slight scum bussing day 1 and yest on page 1

http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... c&&start=0


http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 11#1864811



http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=12460



http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=12404

locke first vote is on jebus (her scum partner and kono (lynched day 1 votes on Jebus)

The point is scum do it and to say it hardly happens is a falacy. I even found a game in which scum did RVS on page 1 to their scum partner. I mean seriously it happens. It's not a hardly happens it is it will happen more times then not.

[farside22]

Hey farside, your examples are not what you represent them to be.

Also I would like to point something out that SC is using the terms least likely when I talk about scum bussing.
However just on this page with games done and over I have 3 cases in slight scum bussing day 1 and yest on page 1

http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... c&&start=0

http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 11#1864811



http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=12460

Both of these games are scum random voting each other on D1. That's not a bus. It doesn't count.

http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=12404

locke first vote is on jebus (her scum partner and kono (lynched day 1 votes on Jebus)

This vote was on page 9. This doesn't count either as a page 1 buss, or a early D1 buss.

The first game cycber used that to move on and say look who was first to vote here.
The second game if you read the rules they could not do and RVS and had to do a real vote based on real reason.
Nice of you to actual read the mechanics of the game.

@reck: Explain how?

[farside22]

Farside, at first, didn't come off that scummy to me... but it seems the more she tries to defend herself, the more she digs her own grave. It's like I didn't see anything at first, but ek's attacks on her are actually showing her in a different light. It's nothing drastic, not yet at least, but she seems to be failing to defend herself properly.

Also, in case it wasn't known, I'm a yes, and I'd prefer to imprint 2-3 people.

How is this. I answered and showed reasoning on all of my post and how she misrepresented my intentions and making a mockery of starbucks read.
I showed
1. wasn't expecting a hammer
2. was a lie
3. DN was EK's #1 suspect but SC had starbuck as his number 1. She fails to concede this point at all
4. she was misrepresenting me based on her comment and I showed proof of what I actually said.
So please explain better how you feel my defense has holes when you see day 1 and the discussion going on about imprints till SC hammers and ends it all.

unvote:

I think my point is being missed about imprinting yesterday. No one seems to see that it should have happened yesterday and I don't see a reason it should not have. Since it did not and we have no information gained thanks to some happy hammers for today then a no lynch would be best.

We should also have a consensus with reasoning on who we should imprint and why.

I'm still going with thebuttonman on this as game breaking in townie favor is hard to ignore.
2nd person: Pug hasn't done anything I find to be scummy. He has been thoughtful in his comments and his reasoning.

[farside22]

[quote="plum]I don't even know who his top suspect(s) at that time would be except I guess SC[/quote]

buttonman has been pretty clear on his thoughts of scum.[/quote]

Also I'm fairly certain either SC or EK is scum, I'm leaning towards SC Thoughts?

So I'm fairly certain one or two of the following three are scum; EK, SC and Messiah. Thoughts?

Also I'm wondering is Plum fell down a hole or is just active lurking like a champ.

Now for clerical work

Imprint: TheButtonmen

[farside22]

And I don't understand the reasoning for you to suggest "imprint 2 people and lynch or imprint 3 people and nolynch." What are the benefits of that plan?

This was the start of the game for me. Part of it was well if we imprint 3 people it's a higher chance one of the 3 could be scum and if we lynch incorrectly we could be giving the scum a NK ability.
2 players feels safer as then if 1 of them had NK we can narrow it down further and questioned them without as much confusion.

Okay imagine for a moment:

2 imprints and a mafia lynch (I'm going with this since this is what occured)
the 2 imprints will have some role that either cop, detective, RB, lie dector, ect. Hopefully with the 2 someone gets something that gives info and checks out 1 player to help the town clear someone else.

3 players and a no lynch
This to me with 8 town and 4 scum seems more likely to have a scum imprint. scum can try get a town an imprint but with 3 I can see them trying to get one of their own an imprint and there is a higher probablity of that happening since scum is informed of who is what alignment unlike the town.
This point we again hope to have leading roles but there is always a possiblity of a deceptor at this point.
With a lynch had it been town we could have had a lot more WIFOM with all the possiblities and mislynching up the wozoo (again I'm thinking of all the things that could be without information on what imprints we will get but the possible imprints that can hinder the town)
I'm also thinking that the mod is going to give the scum a NK ability if they ever do get imprinted but I still haven't received an answer if 2 scum get imprinted if they both gain a NK ability.
I still think 3 imprints is too much especially now that we are down 1 townie with 3 scum.

Is this your excuse for never commenting on DN who was obviously going to be lynched?

No it's my excuse for thinking I had more time to look into things. As you know answering a question is easy. Going back and reading things take time.

3)Spends all her time attacking me and SC, then changes her vote to our number one suspect, Starbuck, with almost no explanation.

I attack you, not SC most of the time I questioned SC. I explain why I went back but I'm starting to think you just want to ignore my explaination on why I went back to look at SB and the case and her defending DN

IF YOU THINK I AM SCUM AND SC IS MY STOOGE, WHY HAVE YOU CHANGED YOUR VOTE TO SC?

First of all you made the statement I was not saying you were both scum and this was stated before I voted SC. Second I explained why I voted SC this time as it looks like he was trying to get SB lynched day 1 over DN from the start which would have been a mislynch and stated the following:

SerialClergyman wrote:
Seriously good posting. Despite calling my ideas crazy. Or perhaps because of that . Crazy but true is my speciality.

To be honest, my case against DN dies if Starbuck is scum and vice versa. My main point about Starbuck is that she's acting bizarrey towards Deathnote. Can't see much reason for scum --> town unless it's a weird way of buddying, so I'm sticking with scum --> scum.

That comment in retrospect of SB's allignment and Dn's allignment and who SC pushed harder on, looks scummy in retrospect. Or are you saying you can't see that?

[farside22]

I support myself, Pug, Messiah, and Plum.

Why?

[farside22]

I'm of the opinion that 2 imprint are enough.
I like CTD's read enough to feel sound judgement because there were things I noted with VMD that got ignored. I didn't notice reck's flip flop in the case that he pointed out.
Anyways it's well thought out. I feel 6 people on my list as scum right now. I think my biggest problem with limerick is that I don't get a read at all on him in this game.
I think Pug is the only other person close to imprint so either he or limerick would be fine in my view to receive an imprint.
I think the more imprints we do the more likely scum will receive an imprint and leave us questioning things more.

[farside22]

Agreed with less imprints. While I'd prefer to receive an imprint over Pug for obvious reasons, I agree that two is enough.

I like CTDs contributions so far as well!

Well how about telling me who you feel is scum and why?
This would help me out to decide more soundly about you.

[farside22]

Yeah reck started off in a bang in my view then just went down hill. I get the impression from his comment about digging a hole and voting to imprint EK and calling her town just odd considering his first post was mostly about the EK/SC buddying and trying to confirm each other.
I felt like he switched his views without giving good sound reasoning and I felt this EK/Reck pairing starting to stir in the back of my mind.

VMD is up there as well her talk about lurkers (which I stated when I started) being more scummy and saying I have a town read on X player without a real reason was off putting. Her vote on buttonman with his suggestion although she said it was because he was killing the game comes off as a kick reaction of more scum then town because he's suggesting something pro-town.\

Pug - I know he's quiet and not saying too much but so far I haven't read anything at all I find scummy. I would like him to post more right about now.

Plum - another suspect of mine. She/He (sorry I forget) comes in a post but I don't see Plum really reading the game. Plum talks about not trusting buttonman saying that he doesn't even know who buttonman thinks is scum where I posted 2 quotes made by buttonman that shows he has been quiet clear.

I think everyone knows my view on SC/EK at this point. SC looks scummy in retrospect pushing the SB lynch over DN from the start of the day.

imprint: Limerick

As I said I still think only 2 players should be imprinted max. I stand by that. Even if limerick, pug or button is not on my scum list I don't want feel comfortable imprinting too many people with the thought that one or more could be scum and I still never got an answer from the mod about the scum NK ability.

[farside22]

Anything specific you want me to comment on? Between the holidays and being sick I haven't look too closely at anything before Christmas so I'll try to go back and look at that sometime soon.

Can you give me your list of scum suspect and why?

I'm going to give CTD a chance to finish his analysis and comments

unimprint Pug

Since limick isn't as close I will leave that imprint as is.
I don't know why EK think 1 imprint is more then enough. Idk why but it's the we don't know what the imprint will do and maybe having 2 imprints might give one a cop results.
I'm hopeful.
I mean really I'm not sure what the about face is all about. Are we going to just keep doing no lynch with one imprint at this point.
Just things like that that bug me.

[farside22]

I said besides SC at that point, before the DN wagon started really churning. I'd have hoped for more; it's not a major point against him, more of a minor 'not voting much/making many official declarations of top suspects' early in the game. The posts you brought were both from a week after the point where I had the problem, and I specified when I noted it that my problem was 'at that point'; closer to December 12 than December 18.

What???
I saw that comment in your post about not wanting buttonman imprinted today. He made comments on 3 people he felt was scum on the 18th yes but your comment about his no scum list was said 2 days ago.. So I'm not sure if your reading still and catching up or if your just making things up as you go along right now.

[farside22]

I don't know why it takes someone else to point out my thinking for anyone to realize I do have a point and it's based not on gut but on what I could see scum trying to do and how it could be capatlized best in a game.

*sulks in corner*

[farside22]

I really have a hard time following you, farside.

"you have a point that it's not based on gut but on what you could see scum trying to do?

Isn't that the same thing?"
.

I see gut as I have a gut feeling on something I read. Maybe that is me.
When I think what I see as scum trying to do. It's that inner voice that questions motives, actions, comments and how it could be used.
IE: I point to SC's comment about SB and how he was pushing that case more then the DN case but EK ignores the point completely and focas's how scummy I am.
I see this as scum trying to protect their scum buddy.

[farside22]

Sorry, that was another long one. Please read it. I want Elvis in particular to comment.

I think I'm done for the night. Reckoner is next up, and starting with him, these things should become shorter (I hope).

*feels exhausted after read thru*

[farside22]

I just noticed that SC talked about imprinting him and EK based on DN flip and most people said no and took any imprint discussion after that out of town's hand.
Day 2 when the "decision" from SC to not imprint became more vocal and it felt like it came because of the day 1 comments of people not wanting to imprint him and EK then anything else.

[farside22]

Mod: If 2 mafia get imprinted do they both get a NK or does only one get to perform a NK?

Sorry I kept forgetting that I hadn't answered this one:

Any player who has been imprnted with a night action may perform that action, regardless of alignment. So, theoretically, if two rogue actives could both receive an imprint that granted them a night killing ability, both could perform a kill. Note that I am not necessarily saying that it is possible for them to receive these imprints.

Thank you!
This makes me want to just keep it at one imprint now and

FOS; SC

for his suggestion to imprint him and EK day 1 if DN flips scum

[farside22]

Warning: Long post is coming:

lewarcher82/ xRECKONERx: I decided to read up on this a bit more myself. Reck has been giving me scum vibes today and now it really adds up even more.

lew finds nothing to add on pages 1-5 with the set up discussion and who said what. Has no opinion on the setup in general. Pro on this was his town read on SB.
I don't see this being a fact at all:

This is the first game I play with Vala, so I do not know her. I just do not trust players who try to take the lead on day one, and my impression is that this is what she is doing. Also I do not find scum / town lists useful. I find them confusing.

Point in order EK and SC were the main leaders on the day. This just feels weak resoning.

Lew does point out something we had been saying today about SC:

Anyway, I get scumvibes from SC, I find his posts too aggressive towards Starbuck, and I think that his attempt to remind everyone of DN's scumminess without even trying to interact directly with DN is also pretty scummy.

Now Reck on the another hand is a contradiction all onto his own. First he has his SB leaning town comments

Reck: In fact, by the end of page eight, I'd be willing to upgrade Starbuck to leaning-town. I also highlighten in bold one issue that you will see the biggest contradiction for day 1 to day 2.

...
[mrow]Scum[col]IGMEOY[col]Neutral[col]Town DeathNote[col]TheButtonmen[col]farside22[col]Reckoner SerialClergyman[col]elvis_knits[col]Limerickx[col]Messiah @

SC: Because I don't necessarily think Starbuck's passive defense of DeathNote means she's saying he's town

. She's saying she doesn't have a full read on him, and I can understand that to an extent. ---[col]---[col]Starbuck[col]Vala Mal Doran ---[col]---[col]Pug89[col]Plum

The same goes for DN/Starbuck.

I don't like to/don't think it's very proper to make scum connections on D1. Sure, it's interesting with four scum in this game, but the fact still remains that a four person scumteam can coordinate QUITE WELL against an eight person town, and there's no way to really start drawing conclusions until we get a role-flip.

Wait a minute what happened to what was just said from the one above and this comment:

I feel like we need to get people imprinted THEN decide on a lynch.

My vote will either go to Starbuck or SC. It's currently 8:3. If we lynch wrong, it'll be 7:3, and that'll put us into lylo tomorrow if scum gets a killing imprint.

@SC: Why did you wait until the end of the wagon to hammer DN?

Vote: SerialClergyman

His ploy was that if he was town, then so was elvis... and if DeathNote was scum, so was Starbuck. IMO, it was a bus. He knew DeathNote would flip scum, therefore incriminating Starbuck and seemingly clearing both himself and elvis.

Interesting point however:

Vote: Starbuck

On second thought, lynching Starbuck is a better plan.

Passively defending someone who flips scum is a no-no

.

Awesome turn about in 1 day with no reason.
aka I'm jumping on a BW and contradicting myself today.

vote: Reckoner

[farside22]

There's... not really anything I can respond to in farside's case, I'm afraid.

Yup it's hard to disprove that you didn't flip back and forth from calling SB town.
Then say this:

xRECKONERx wrote:
@SC: Why did you wait until the end of the wagon to hammer DN?

Vote: SerialClergyman

His ploy was that if he was town, then so was elvis... and if DeathNote was scum, so was Starbuck. IMO, it was a bus. He knew DeathNote would flip scum, therefore incriminating Starbuck and seemingly clearing both himself and elvis.

To backtrack and vote SB the following post.

^ can we please now vote on the scum

[farside22]

Yeah, I couldn't decide if Starbuck was town or not. Then, when I looked at things in light of the flip, I was like, "Whoa. The passive defending thing looks a lot scummier now." I don't see what's wrong with that.

First you say it's based on DN flip. Then it's I don't know who to lynch between SC and SB.
Then you out and out say you think it's a scheme by SC but once the SB wagon goes you conviently go back with little to nothing said.

It's called wagoning for little to no reason.

[farside22]

The funny thing about the farside-reck business is that farside also made a dubious switch to starbuck, IMO.

Umm I never said anything about star till I went back that day with SC, so hush.
He blantly flip on his views from 1 post to the other.
Any other catty remark you wish to make that shows once again I see you not reading the game.

[farside22]

This game has me really struggling at the moment. I think it's the high presence of scum + daytalking. That and the constant hatin'.

Why do people keep suspecting me but lynching people I push a case against?

Deathnote, SB and now Reck I've attacked only to have people like Messiah/CTD, Farside and reck (although obviously he's not self-voting) get on the wagon while also thinking I'm scum.

imprint/nolynch imo.

I'm still torn on you. Your SB push and your desire to imprint EK and yourself still doesn't make me feel good about you.

Why do people ignore obvious scum moves that people do that I show with quotes?
*goes back to corner*

[farside22]

if you're torn on me, why vote for DN, who I was pushing, Starbuck, who I was pushing, and now Reck, who I've been pushing?

I didn't vote on DN. I voted on SB because I thought your comment about lynch me see me flip town then lynch SB was something that made me pause and look back.
I have been saying for a few pages now that reck has been giving me scum vibes.

[farside22]

On a side note I would still vote you SC based on the push on SB over DN most of day 1, talking about the imprint of do who I say well you didn't so no one get imprinted approach, and frankly the if I was town or mafia why would I do this instead of answering questions approach is down right scummy.
It seems to be most of your answers to anything that people show as scummy.

[farside22]

And how do you feel about xRECKONERx imprint-hammering TheButtonmen?

I personally feel concerned..........it gives me pause.


As for trying to get a read on my and how I play good luck with that SC I am a random, emotionally, crazy, scum hunting female. I'm starting to think only I see obvious things, point them out and just get ignored.
*sigh*

[farside22]

And how do you feel about xRECKONERx imprint-hammering TheButtonmen?

I personally feel concerned..........it gives me pause.


As for trying to get a read on my and how I play good luck with that SC I am a random, emotionally, crazy, scum hunting female. I'm starting to think only I see obvious things, point them out and just get ignored.
*sigh*

Prexisting concerns about me or concerns that were raised when someone you find scummy hammered me?

pause more because someone I find scummy hammers for your imprint

[farside22]

farside - I odn't have that opinion of you at all. I think you're a strong player who is dilligent and concerned with the game. The problem is I don't know how youp lay as scum, and I don't know what changes of mind are spontaenous and what might be manufactured. I don't mean to ignore you, and I could probably be more in depth in my analysis of what you say, I just don't necessarily agree with you much. We also seem to come from different directions - you cautiously come to shaky conclusions, I quickly jump to solid conclusions and then re-assess as new evidence comes to hand. This gives me the frustrating opinion that you aren't prepared to go with everything and are constantly going back on your thought process, and gives you the frustrating feeling that I have no right to be as sure as I am about where my position is.

You and EK have been the most vocal and many a thing I find scummy. Doesn't mean there isn't more scum. Just that I need to go back and reread a few things and see who else I find scummy.
There are 3 scum left in this game and when you have about 5-6 players you feel fit under a category it's good to go against those that are more vocal sometimes and see if they slip further.
Other cases it's good to bring out those lurkering.

[farside22]

@ Farside

; Ask me a question.

Who are your current top 3 scum and why?
If you were given an investigation ability who of the 3 would you investigate?

[farside22]

@ Serial,

Yes I'd vig you but there's a lot more power roles then vig.

@ Farside

; How do you feel this being nightless is affecting your ability to scumhunt and who do you feel the least sure on at the moment (As in can't decide if they are town or scum)?

I do not support vigging. I don't understand why you would not investigate SC but you would shot him.

As for my question I feel uncertain about plum and SC the most. I feel that if reck would flip scum some of the interaction between EK and VMD would match my set as the top 3.
I don't really think about this being a nightless game. The fact the scum can day talk I can see mess with you a bit but the last time I was scum with day talk it really wasn't used that much. I think it depends on the players.

[farside22]

@limerick: if you were given an investigation role who would you look into and why?

[farside22]

Sup farside.

What you thinking about things?

I'm thinking I really like reck as scum.....willing to no lynch to see what info we get but so far only 1 imprint and now I'm just feeling uncertain about pug as he gets quieter and quieter.
It's that question I asked the mod about the possiblity of mafia being able to perform 2 kills in one night that makes me question everyone about their thoughts at this point.

[farside22]

538:Reck asks farside "what if it's a town vig?" (seems like such a setup for giving mafia an excuse to use their kill and claim town vig)

Also I pointed this out when reck brought it up. Gave me scum vibe too. Basically excusing a player from shooting someone.
If buttonman carried through with his threat and "vigged" Sc I would vote to have him lynched, unless SC was scum then I would think about it, but I don't care for the I would investigate player X but would shoot play Y.
Things like that just bother me.

[farside22]

I'd like to know if anyone thinks this is as bad as I do:

Shooting is investigating.

I do. I've said it 5 times now at least. I do not believe if you get a vig ability you should use it.

[farside22]

I saw my name and not being here. Can I laugh now?
I had the day off but the day care does too so being around my son keeps me more occupied then work.

My biggest issue is buttonman willing to "vig" someone he feels is scum. I just don't like it. If it was someone I felt 100% was scum I would be saying go for it and yes I know that button has been on SC since day 1. However I think he should take a vote on how the majority feel about who he shot if giving a vig ability. It's just a thought but I don't want to give the scum a reason to shot people. However if the majority says yes kill player X then shouldn't we lynch player X.
You see the issue? So I go back and just say no to using a vig ability
I feel with this game I'm feeling more scared of the scum.
Pug was almost imprinted, limerick is close to be imprinted.
Pug just needs to be replaced in my opinion at this point. His sporadic post are not helping.
I think as a second pick of imprints I would go for limerick at this point.
I would love to be imprinted and frankly I would be checking Reck as he is definitely my number 1 suspect and would be a chain affect I can find surrounding him and his post.

[farside22]

The case in short on reck:
He flip flopped his views on SB day 2 with no cause.
He jumped on a BW from SC to SB day 2 after calling SC out saying he was trying to set up SB's lynch. (IE: look how reck jumps on a BW with little reason) some people are talking about the digging hole comment (I can see this as an attempt to jump on a weak vote and BW against me).


Sorry if that wasn't 40 words or less I wasn't counting.

[farside22]

I was trying to avoid this discussion about the "buddying" because I could not think of a way to say it nicely.
So let me start this by saying I"m sorry for what I"m about to say.

1) If I see someone that is town and I'm town I will listen to them but I will still have suspicion on them in the back of my mind as I'm wondering if they are using my town read against me. The fact the 2 of you ignore any scum action based on a day 1 WIFOM is ludicrous. I for one am never 100% on any one player till more scum are lynched or i'm scum
2) a scum player that buddies up to a town typically do this with the hopes that if they are lynched the town player will be lynched do to the buddying (can't tell you how I got played by scum once and this happened to me)
3) finally my issue isn't the buddying (although it's something that can make me just roll my eyes) it's the fact that even when someone points out something that is indeed scummy you close you're eyes to it and carry on like it isn't there that gives me scum vibes. IE: scum trying to protect each other from a lynch.

These 3 issues is why I'm undecided about the so called town tell based on WIFOM.

[farside22]

In a normal mafia game, no I would not say OMG this person is town as you might as well paint a target on their back to the mafia if they are town. I think it's bad practice.
This game things SC ignored. Blantant misinterpretation from EK, the OMGUS case she tried to present about me with some comment about DN is correct her constant ignoring facts and comments all ring scum read on EK.
Her scum hunting has been based more on DN flip then reading everything said in the game.
Thing EK ignored/missed: SC pushing more of a case on SB over DN most of day 1. SC taking the imprints out of town's hands.
Ignoring these actions does not give a town view. It means you are both blind to any possibility of the other as scum.
As for the martyr-like attitude I think that discussion should be saved to later as it was more personal the game related and if you didn't like how I stated my comments prior you won't like that one either.

[farside22]

I didn't do any of the stuff you're saying in 1059. Haven't we already discussed all of it? And didn't we call a truce and become friends?

Farside, as for the concept of town people trying to find other townies... that has been a trend in mafia games more recently among certain players. I think you were taking a break when this started happening more. I'm thinking of rofl, tajo, and dgb, lots of players do it. Pronounce others town based on their reads. And it doesn't mean it's set in stone, but it means that's how you feel about them at the moment. It's always up for reassessment depending on what happens in the future.

which one are you saying you didn't do because I will be glad to quote.
As for a truce it's not a complete truce as I see scum with reck honestly.
I was asked to provide reason and I did. Ignoring a scummy action on a town read is ludicrous. I don't care how much mafia I do I don't trust half the players and those I have a town read on I even feel suspicion on.
I see dgb do it and xyl say player X is town. Doesn't mean I agree with it. Yes there is a doctor in some games, but not all and no my comment didn't not include this game I stated where I see budding bad is scum buddies a townie. I'm sure scum doesn't mind a mislynch of town by budding to someone they know to be town.

[farside22]

I'm thinking we should possibly look to no lynch sooner rather than later. I'm worried knowing we won't lynch today is messing our information up.

Is there some deadline I'm unaware of? Are you in a hurry for some reason?

Someone needs to answers socrates questions 1075. I would but I feel like under crap these past few days and all I want to do is go back to sleep.

[farside22]

I'm thinking we should possibly look to no lynch sooner rather than later. I'm worried knowing we won't lynch today is messing our information up.

Is there some deadline I'm unaware of? Are you in a hurry for some reason?

Someone needs to answers socrates questions 1075. I would but I feel like under crap these past few days and all I want to do is go back to sleep.

Pressure is cranked way back due to knowing no-ones going up a rope which means we get less information from today, is how I read that.

And SC isn't voting so what is the point of that statment?

[farside22]

feeling a bit better to go over a few things now.

What was the status of the Starbuck wagon when he flip-flopped?

Reck was the second to last to vote for SB

Has Reck done this with other players than Starbuck/SC?

Not so far but the whole farside is digging a hole looks to be following EK and our argument.

Was Reck on the DeathNote wagon? If so, when did he join?

He was on the wagon. He was the 4th person to vote for DN

How signifigant a factor was Reck on both of these wagons? (As in, would the wagon be able to go through if he decided to stay off?)

I think the DN lynch was going to happen no matter what day 1 with DN's attempt to AtE comment. I find the SB vote the worst from him next to messiah (who hammered) as I said he voted for SC
Reck was 4th on the SC wagon with this quote:

@SC: Why did you wait until the end of the wagon to hammer DN?

Vote: SerialClergyman

His ploy was that if he was town, then so was elvis... and if DeathNote was scum, so was Starbuck. IMO, it was a bus. He knew DeathNote would flip scum, therefore incriminating Starbuck and seemingly clearing both himself and elvis.

He unvotes but really why just because of imprint?

Yeah, the site is super-fucked right now. Also,

unvote

.

I want to figure out the imprinting thing first.

Vote: Starbuck

On second thought, lynching Starbuck is a better plan. Passively defending someone who flips scum is a no-no.

2nd to last vote on SB. IE I changed my mind after saying over and over that I thought SB town.


The next person who flipped without cause and the hammer vote:

You know they will not care when you flip town and still keep up with this same BS.

This isn't really correct. SC flipping town at this point would be signficant to me.

a busser wouldn't even push all day for the lynch, they might be wishy washy and come on at the end

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't that exactly what SC did? He went from "I think starbuck is scum, and if she is DN is probably her scumbuddy" to hammering DN.

ek, what happens if Starbuck flips town?

He was talking mostly about voting for Sc here. His very next post is with the SB push:

I'm down for a Starbuck lynch. I believe I said that I would find her defense of DN scummy if he flipped scum, and I stand by that. I'm going to allow her the opportunity to post before hammering since she hasn't gotten a chance to respond to anything yet.

unvote, vote: Starbuck

Her "I don't see where I defended him" defense isn't very persuasive.

I just see this as week reasoning to vote for SB.

[farside22]

Farside, thank you for answering those questions. Do you think it is possible for Messiah and Reck to both be scum who switched wagons in quick succession? In my experience scum don't like to act so synchronized.

I remember a game where I was scum with day talk ability. My scum buddy and I set it up so we could vote back to back. We got lucky no one linked it and it was down to needing one more mislynch for scum to win
In other words it's not unheard of for me.
It wasn't really quick. Messiah waiting for SB to come back and haver her say but I just find the switch rather quick with not much else said during the day.
Things like that bother me.

[farside22]

imprint limerick

someone wake me when people get off their ass and make a decision.
I think the reck case is solid. His response on it was laughable.
People want to no lynch with 2 imprints then fine. I'm not moving my vote any time soon.

[farside22]

I'm going to assume picky mod since I didn't capitalize or use the two dots that my imprint was ignored.

Imprint: Limerick

[farside22]

I think you should check the count again. I mean, I did ignore your imprint, but only because you were already imprinting him.

Ah could have swore I unimprinted someone. No harm, no foul.

[farside22]

.

unimprint: farside22

Not as sure about you as VMD was.

ummmm not sure why you say this since you were the one to imprint me in the first place.
As for Soc what about his post makes you feel he is town and why?

[farside22]

*places a call*

Hello hell?
Yay this is Heather I was wondering........Well did hell freeze today?

(pause)

okay just had to check.

[farside22]

Needs more flips. I think you show elements of being town but I'm not picking up what you're putting down most of the time.

God if I was any more blunt I would have most men in tears and women telling me I should be ashamed of myself.

*shakes head is dispear*

[farside22]

farside, the above (1118) was to limerick.

1120 was to you.

my bad

[farside22]

Farside, look back through my big, massive iso and find all the times I've called you scum, or said you were likely to be scum. Or even something where I've said I don't like you or don't want you imprinted.

I get the distinct impression you a) dislike me, b) think I have a fundamental difference to you and c) have trouble thinking that I can compartmentalise different opinions.

(a)I don't dislike you. (b) I think I feel people are indifferent to my opinion
(c) doesn't listen to others. IE see (b)

[farside22]

On a total unrelated note my sarcasm goes over SC's head.

[farside22]

pretty sure the asprin comment was in another game.
I was trying to tease to alleviate hard feelings it's just the way I am.

[farside22]

lAnyways - you're in my top 3 town list. How does it feel to be on top of that particular mountain?

it's about freeking time!
See joke... can't say you're on my town list but your not on my top 3 scum list. Your under the uncertain category.

[farside22]

I'd vote KOC over Reck right now, personally.

Why do you feel this way? What did KOC say that leans more scum over Reck?

[farside22]

Flimsy case!
I'm still in awe that others are not voting against you with comments like this comeing from Reck:

@SC: Because I don't necessarily think Starbuck's passive defense of DeathNote means she's saying he's town. She's saying she doesn't have a full read on him, and I can understand that to an extent.

@SC: Why did you wait until the end of the wagon to hammer DN?

Vote: SerialClergyman

His ploy was that if he was town, then so was elvis... and if DeathNote was scum, so was Starbuck. IMO, it was a bus. He knew DeathNote would flip scum, therefore incriminating Starbuck and seemingly clearing both himself and elvis.

Vote: Starbuck

On second thought, lynching Starbuck is a better plan. Passively defending someone who flips scum is a no-no.

Seriously if this isn't scum jumping on a town BW with weak reasoning I will offically call Reck the worst town player in history and give myself a muzzle for 2 weeks.

[farside22]

I'm the worst town player in history.

Here's your muzzle. Now shush.

Please you have no excuse for those comments. Going from saying SB town to SC at the time you did. You doing to say that wasn't not a BW vote from scum then prove something about it.
So far all you are is talk with nothing you can say that doesnt' make your statement worse. And until the mod say's your flip your little joke is pointless.

[farside22]

See bold for corrections.

I'm the worst town player in history.

Here's your muzzle. Now shush.

Please you have no excuse for those comments. Going from saying SB town to

SB scum

at the time you did. You

going

to say that wasn't not a BW vote from scum then prove something about it.
So far all you are is talk with nothing you can say that doesnt' make your statement worse. And until the mod say's your flip your little joke is pointless.

[farside22]

I changed my mind. So fucking sue me. Unlike some people, I don't sit there and talk myself into a brick wall. When I think of something that could be useful, or that I could have been wrong, I say it. I'd played with Starbuck so many times and seen her get lynched wrongly that I let that bias my views of her.

Bias views?! You certainly let it be all fine and dandy day 1 with her as town. Suddenly it's SC is trying to bus to wait a sec SB is scum defending scum.
Give me a break. You have done nothing this game since you entered but follower others and lurker till prodded even though you are posting elsewhere.
You voted on a convient BW with little to no reasoning, comment or thought and kept yourself out of the limelight when there is any fights going on.
IE: Scum.

[farside22]

So you have enough time to through in this little bit to try and clear scum

@Farside: What if it's a town vig?

But not enough time to actually build a case and go into details on why SB is scum?
Awesome story bro.....
Anyone can look at your profile to see you have been plenty active here on mafia the past 4 days (I only looked that far) to see your lurkering.
Calling my case flimsy, trying to call my comments tunnelling this is all signs of scum squirmmy with no defense.

*pats self on back*

[farside22]

I was posting from my phone while in Orlando. I didn't have WiFi, and this game by far requires more than a phone's small browser/screen to properly keep up with - the wall of texts had something to do with that.

And, there's nothing to defend against - I say I changed my mind, you say it was opportunistic scum-hopping. It's he said vs she said. You've got ONE point against me, and somehow I'm your biggest scum candidate? Lol.

This from the guy who says this:

Farside is digging herself a hole.

As a way to try and start showing interest in a vote. This is a clear telgraph.
Also calling me tunneled when the only case you have brought up is against SC and no one else.
And what case is it that you have exactly?
But keep blowing it off as it's nothing in classic scum form.
Scum hunting my reck this game = 1
scum hunting by farside = lost count
Clear list of 3 to 5 scum suspects by farside
Reck scum list?
I have this as another reason. You have been MIA or taking a trip or doing god knows what but as I said your not too busy to post elsewhere around this place and lurkering without providing anything scum hunting wise is a classic scum move.

[farside22]

Thats a list from your catchup post way back day 1 after you replaced in.

And it had SB as a neutral read. Buttonman with an IGMEOY read with an imprint and EK with the same IGMEOY with an FOS.

[farside22]

So you want a new one? Then say so. You blatantly misrepped (see: lied) when you said I had ZERO scumlists.

Actually it was a ? with that scum list comment so I think you be stregthing a bit on that scum.
But have fun with trying to make that OMGUS case I see coming.

[farside22]

Oh, you mean how I said you were digging yourself a hole earlier, and if I choose to iso you and expand on that now, you're going to call it OMGUS?

Yeah.

What is iso?
no I see a clear scum telegraph at an attempt to want to vote me and not doing so and ready to call it OMGUS based on such (looks at word from reck) "frivolous" case as such your trying to create and so far nothing there.

[farside22]

Please learn the difference between your and you're.

Please stop being a grammar police.

[farside22]

Is this not good enough for a scumlist?

Sure if I can call your comments about me on that post OMGUS along with how dare you point out my scumminess to people.

[farside22]

The last replacement joined almost a week ago! Certainly you've seen SOMETHING from SOMEONE during this time.

I'm inclined to agree with E_K on this. I voted you for an imprint, but the lack of content since then is uncomforting.

I've seen many somethings, however I'm currently waiting for socreates to catch up in his read and this weekend as classes started this week.

zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz
An opinion at this point about each of the players is not unheard of and should not be like pulling teeth.

[farside22]

That's not the point. You've had all game, and all you've done is suggest the breaking strategy (which occurred over one day) and then attack SC and imprint yourself. If you don't have time for a summary post, just give us some of your opinions, even if you aren't going to quote stuff. If you're town you should be able to give thoughts without a massive amount of brainpower or time. More time is needed when you are scum trying to craft your opinions in an effort to swing the town a certain way or avoid contradicting yourself.

Like when you said "I've seen some things..." just tell us what these things are that have stuck out to you and why. Just off the top of your head. How about that?

I agree and disagree. I know when I want to formulate a case on people I want to be very diligent and go over everything I read with quotes and such as reference points. Reread things, see if I missed anything during the game.
That said I think just a general comment about each of the players isn't unheard of to move this game along from buttonman.

[farside22]

So we just had two player imprint limerick in two posts with no reasoning greater than "I get a town read" and "I'm going to imprint hammer him."

I'm really uncomfortable with that.

This. Though, I get the strange feeling that if Lim is scum, scum were on his imprint wagon early on... if he's town, scum might've hammered.

What? How do you even come to this conclusion?

[farside22]

I'm just trying to think what scum would want to do. If buttonmen is scum, does he want more people (town) to get imprints so that if he gets a NK he can use it and not be the only suspect? Or does he just want to stick with only himself being imprinted because if town people get imprinted, the risk to himself and the rest of his team is greater?

I'm toying with the idea of Limerick being a patsy in this case, but not sure the risk>reward.

If there is a kill there are 2 players to look at. As buttonman already expressed an interest in "vigging" SC I would be looking more closely at him.
But saying this doesn't give anyone *cough* limerick a free pass if there is a death tonight.

@SC: I'm done with my thoughts but I like my vote where it stands I hope someone gets an investigation and gives us information.

[farside22]

So, nobody has mentioned this...

If we're not happy with the way imprints happen, we can always decide to lynch a person to prevent them being imprinted.

I'm not sure I want to go that far at this point.

One reason I'm not sure if I want to do this is because I really like the plan we have going on of "lynch and wait to see the flip before imprinting, then imprint and no-lynch the next day." And throwing a lynch on at this point gums up the works.

I am still not comfortable with the last two imprint votes coming in two back-to-back posts. I guess it's possible that people are just geting impatient, like socrates said.

I have serious doubts that both people imprinter are scum. I don't get a scum read from limerick.
buttonman's wishy washy attitude and desire to shot someone doesn't make me all warm and fuzzy but there is only one person I feel scum and he is the only person I would lynch today.
You could just be nervous scum trying to make this proposal to get a townie lynched for all I know. I still see you and reck scum partners so your not exactly a ring endorsment.

[farside22]

farside is almost certainly town. I imprinted her and declared her town 5 pages ago and she has not gotten a single imprint since. If she and two scum buddies ignored that gift then she's got amazing self-control.

So now that's clear, farside should convince herself elvis is town and we'll have a scumbusting trio of awesome.

True story.

If EK actually paid attention to Reck case instead of making saractic comments and proposing people we imprinted may be lynched I would think differently of her.

[farside22]

I'm also not making sarcastic comments...

The funny thing about the farside-reck business is that farside also made a dubious switch to starbuck, IMO.

Sorry I had forgotten your comments about Reck. I think it's the lack of vote on it that throws me off.

[farside22]

-=Imprint Count #34=-

Hawaii (buttonmen)(6) - Hawaii(buttonmen), Kansas(farside), Ohio (KoC), Florida(limerick), Montana(pug), Iowa(reck)
Florida (limerick) (6) - Florida(limerick), Ohio(Koc), Kansas(farside), Colorado(CTD), Montana(pug), Hawaii(buttonmen)[

Of the six people voting for each imprint, we have 5 people occurring on each one:

buttonmen, limerick, KoC, farside, pug

That's pretty interesting that the lists are almost exactly the same.

Also, if I'm just being paranoid, and buttonmen and limerick are both town, I would expect the wagons to be all or mostly town.

My problem of the 5 people I find scum only 2 of the players are on each wagon.

KOC - on both imprint wagons
reck - on buttonman
ctd (mostly do to messiah) on limerick's wagon.
Now if buttonman is scum there is the 3 scum left I can lean on more (reck/koc)
If limerick is scum then it would be KOC/CTD

If both are town then I would look at those not imprinting either
SC/EK/Soc

[farside22]

I didn't vote him because I thought we were no-lynching. That's all.

Why would you even suggest lynching someone that was imprinted then?

[farside22]

I didn't vote him because I thought we were no-lynching. That's all.

Why would you even suggest lynching someone that was imprinted then?

Because I hate buttonmen...

And I don't trust him...

And I didn't like that little quickhammer imprint business.

Do you really read limerick as scum?

[farside22]

we'll have a scumbusting trio of awesome.

I really want to do this.

The thing you said about pronouncing farside town and nobody imprinting her is a good one. Although I started to think she was town when I saw her playing in another game.

farside, saw me die recently as scum. If she still thinks I'm playing the same this game... then I just don't know what to tell her. Nobody that has seen me play as scum recently confuses it with my town play.

I can't comment about that game and I can't explain without bringing up the game the flaw in that theory.

[farside22]

Limerick's imprinters are Limerick, KoC, farside22 and Plum/Socrates

Florida (limerick) (6) - Florida(limerick), Ohio(Koc), Kansas(farside), Colorado(CTD), Montana(pug), Hawaii(buttonmen)

Interestingly, when Limerick was second in line to be imprinted when Socrates replaced in, he had Socrates' support. Since then he lost it. So he's actually had 7 unique people voting to imprint him. The people who haven't are SC, elvis and Reck - oddly enough. I think that puts two scum on his imprint wagon, personally (thinking Reck is scum and elvis and I aren't.) Socrates is a weird one because he didn't side with his predecessor and that could well be due to a scum strategy.

I remember when reading Plum I thought the three of you were scum together with all the almost high 5 like comments. When plum got the imprints and people where calling her town with so little said it got me even more suspicious. Those were just the gut feeling combo'ed with the way people pushed others as town day 1 though.

Also just a theory question because there was a lot going on you two for wanting to imprint each other.
Do you think scum would imprint their scum partners and themselves in the same post?

[farside22]

Imprint: elvis_knits

I so needed something like this today.

[farside22]

What's so funny?

Imprinting elvis is always a good idea!

It's who doing it, duh.

[farside22]

I think this is a rather simplistic and naîve way to look at things. Also, am I understanding this correctly, that you would reconsider your town-view on SC/EK/Soc if both imprinted players are town? (or am I mixing getting your town and scum reads mixed up?)

It is a bit simple (mostly for those not on either lynch and saying they are scum) I would lean more likely scum with those not on the imprint if button and limerick were both town because I can't see a town reason not to imprint one of the 2 players if both are town. Scum on the other hand trying to push others to be imprint does look more scummy so it's of that category but god help me I think I believe SC.

I can't believe no one else see's the irony of what reck is trying to pull with his imprint at that time.

[farside22]

I can't believe no one else see's the irony of what reck is trying to pull with his imprint at that time.

I'm pretty sure he's trying to make me look like his scum buddy, you know.

Why do you think I was laughing so hard at the timing.

[farside22]

Actually, I think Elvis is town. If we quicklynch me, please lynch farside after my flip for tunneling soooooooooo hardcore.

Yes because there is nothing scummy about someone who tunnels some much like you in regards to SC.

[farside22]

Her conclusions are "all scum are on a scum imprint" and "scum only imprint scum". I'm simplifying a bit, but that's the basic gist of it.

That's not the case at all. I put my 3 scum suspect
Reck. Koc and messiah (CTD) into each of those imprints and if one player imprinted is scum who I would lean on more.
KOC came under both imprints and I don't see scum eager to imprint a townie without hoping they can imprint one of their own so this edges KOC scum a little bit more.

[farside22]

I remembered that you listed 5 or 6 people as scum, but I didn't remember who they were. I didn't find that list on a quick skim of your posts, but I believe your stated suspects at the time were myself, xRECKx, KoC, SC, EK, Socrates. Please correct me if I'm wrong. I was confused by your wording "of the 5 people I find scum, only 2 are on each wagon".

I have been switching with SC all game long. Insert Messiah in here and you got my 5 person list.

Still, let me try again to understand your thought process:
If Limerickx is scum, you're leaning more towards me and KoC.
If TheButtonmen is scum, you're leaning more towards xRECKx and KoC.

yup

If neither of them is scum, you lean towards Soc/EK/SC.

Is that correct?

Yes but I can't see scum not voting town it's a bit hard to believe reading it back in my head. It's possible at least 1 is scum of the 3 that did not imprint and both players imprinted are town.

If the answer is yes, I have 2 follow-up questions before I pass judgement on your theorizing again:
1. Is the reversal of this also true? i.e. if both me and KoC were to turn up scum, would that point towards Limerickx being scum in your eyes?
2. Following your "scum wouldn't imprint a townie without hoping they can imprint one of their own", would xRECKx scum and TheButtonman town implicate Pug, seeing as xRECKx was trying to get Pug imprinted when he hammered TheButtonman?

I would look at limerick a bit more but I would also look at past imprints. (it's hard to see limerick scum)
I saw Reck try to get Pug imprinted but he tried to get VMD imprinted day 1 with buttonman where is a part of where some of my suspicion starts to kick into overdrive and possed the question about scum imprinting themselves along with their scum buddy in a single post.

[farside22]

I think the no lynch was hammered by Socrates, wasn't it?

No.

[farside22]

Yes but I can't see scum not voting town it's a bit hard to believe reading it back in my head. It's possible at least 1 is scum of the 3 that did not imprint and both players imprinted are town.

Could you rephrase that, please? I don't understand these two sentences at all.

I have one more question for you, and then I'll comment:
Does the fact that I was the only person to imprint Limerickx but not TheButtonmen make you feel better about me?

Sorry it's my thought process working in overdrive.
Basically I can't imagine scum all 3 scum not imprinting to look more town. I think it's possible that if limerick and button are both town that 1 of the 3 nonimprints maybe scum.

Just so you understand I found messiah scummy. You have been very thoughtful in your comments but it doesn't erase my read on messiah.
Also see the comment of I can see scum imprinting someone they know to be town in order to look town.

[farside22]

Lets make this less simplistic to appease the mass's.

Hawaii (button) (6) - Hawaii (button), Kansas (far), Ohio (koc), Florida (limerick), Montana (pug), Iowa (reck)
Florida (limerick) (6) - Florida (limerick), Ohio (Koc), Kansas (far), Colorado (CTD), Montana (pug), Hawaii (button)

Not on any of the imprints: EK, SC and Soc.

Players on both wagons: farside, button, limerick, koc

Hawaii: my top suspect on that wagon: Koc and Reck
Florida: My top suspects on that wagon: CTD and KOC

Not on any of the imprints and suspect: EK and Soc.

Now if everyone believes these 2 people are town and deserve to be imprinted why did 3 players not go on any of these imprint wagons?
Both players in question expressed interested with EK/SC as scum so if both said they were willing to investigate them why did EK/Sc not push ot have them imprinted?
These are the thoughts that plague my mind.

[farside22]

Could you rephrase that last bit, farside? I'm not understanding wht is plauging you.

I asked limerick and button who they would investigate.
Button said pug I believe was his first pick as he was quiet and unknown.
limerick expressed interest in checking on of you, ek or reck. I wonder why 2 people who where saying they welcome an investigation to clear them would not imprint someone who expressed the interest to investigate them.

[farside22]

..?

Because I'm not sure of their alignment?

And even if I was, an investigation of me tells me nothing I don't know already. If you had the power to give a 1-shot cop to someone in the town, would you give it to someone who wanted to investigate you?

People don't trust you. Many people voted you day 2 and a few talked about voting you today.
Do you think limerick is scum? Do you think scum would trade one for one?
You see the issues yet?

[farside22]

..?

Because I'm not sure of their alignment?

And even if I was, an investigation of me tells me nothing I don't know already. If you had the power to give a 1-shot cop to someone in the town, would you give it to someone who wanted to investigate you?

Also I would welcome an investigation maybe then people would listen to me about Reck and Koc as scum.

[farside22]

Reck has been trying to make it his mission to throw his your scum view on the public that I don't see anyone agreeing with you SC.
If one of the 2 players is scum that is imprinted I think for me it will be who said what and why they did what they did.
If people want to imprint me I would be thrilled just with the hope I can get a 1 shot cop result and verify reck alignment.

imprint:farside22

If people don't then lets just move on.

[farside22]

I just had a bad thought. Should I express my concern on if there is a player that is scum that is imprinted?

[farside22]

Why not, it's just the two of us in this intimate setting

More seriously, if you think it's something they can react to, hold your thought till tomorrow, you're probably unlikely to be killed even if they get a kill.

And if it's something we can't do anything about even if we knew it was a possibility, probably better to keep that under your hat too. I don't know, use your judgement.

okay. I will put it under the too paranoid category.

Do you remember if the mod said the scum would get a kill and an ability?

[farside22]

No, the scum get an ability of some kind. They can only use one ability each night. Unlike the town, the scum will be able to use that ability for the rest of the game. If they are imprinted more than once, they can 'collect' abilities. So they only way scum could get a kill and an ability is if they're imprinted twice and they get the kill ability one of those two nights. Even then, they can only use EITHER the kill or the ability each night.

Of course, multiple scum could get abilities though, so if all three scum had kills, the scum could kill three people per night.

thanks that makes me feel better now.

[farside22]

Serial, please explain to me why scum would consider a single player that has a dubious reputation with about half of the players in the game calling one of their buddies town to be a free pass to dogpile on her ASAP?
.

Only 2 people have state suspicion today and that is Reck and Koc who I both called out at the start of today. Prior to today and a bit today I have been focused on SC or EK as scum who in turn were a suspicions of me. So unless this is an incredible scum gambit by SC/EK and myself I don't see this issue.
CTD said I'm unreadable and you have said next to nothing about suspicion or any reason to be suspicious of me.

[farside22]

Limerick is right there is still the option of if I was scum and EK/SC was not scum there is 3 people needed to imprint and scum doing a quick imprint would look suspicious to many.
So as much as I can see SC's thought process I never consider scum to be dumb.

[farside22]

imprint farside22

unimprint: farside22

Not as sure about you as VMD was.

Please explain why you imprinted farside in your catchup post then unimprinted farside later, blaming the imprint on VMD (like it was VMD's imprint, when actually it was yours).

I asked about this myself and never got an answer.

[farside22]

limerick hypothetical question for you.
Say you were not the one imprinted and we had 2 imprints already. Soon someone brings up the idea that they feel you are town and should be imprinted as well. Would you still stand there saying no don't imprint me I stand by the 2 imprint idea?

[farside22]

lol simulpost. We're like peas on a pod now. Who knew?

I'm scared, hold me!

[farside22]

I never say you SHOULD be against it? I understand why you want to be imprinted. On the other hand, if I were in your shoes, I would understand why others would NOT want me to be imprinted.

That's not the point of the question. It's would you still push for only 2 imprints instead of 3 imprints and just go no lynch and let it settle?
In other words you are saying, no because of a "standard" of only 2 imprints but if you were not imprinted and someone wanted to imprint you with already 2 imprints would you be putting this rule in front of yourself?

[farside22]

Answering honestly, I'm not sure. I'd LIKE to say I wouldn't push for it, but in reality, in your shoes I probably would. Again, it is in your best interest to be imprinted.

That being said, I dont know that its in mine either, and the fact that the question comes up after the two imprints were cast makes me wary.

I don't understand where you're going with the question. I understand why you'd push to be imprinted. I don't have a problem with that.

It's only because you have this mentality that makes no sense.
It's the we only said 2 imprints therefore I stand by that even though I have a town read.
It just makes no sense to hold onto such an ideal if you have a town read.

[farside22]

I really don't like changing my vote. I'm letting EK, SC or Soc vote as I stated clearly my vote wasn't going anywhere else today. I feel good about Reck/KOC as top two scum.

[farside22]

You're not letting me vote, farside?

I'd actually like to hear some closing thoughts from Pug before the day is over.

Sorry I missed the fact you didnt' vote.
GL with Pug. I personally think he should ask for replacement at this point.

[farside22]

Please, target me as cop so farside et al will get off my ass.

I already said I would target you for investigation if I got a cop ability. nice of you to wake up.
Since limerick feels this way I will say the following

Will not shoot anyone
If given the ability to investigate will check out KOC (only doing this because limerick says he's checking Reck and KOC is my second choice as scum)
I won't block anyone if given that ablity.

[farside22]

Farside, the chances of us both getting cop seem fairly slim. We don't know if ANYONE is getting cop. I'm not sure you shouldn't just investigate Reck in that case.

This is true. I can think of a bunch of abilities that could be given. A lie detector and cop could be in the works. A RB, JK, reporter, tracker, watcher...ect.

[farside22]

On a sad note. This show is about to come to an end in 2 more episodes.
Not sure if I like where they went to come to this end. Feels like a hurry up and lets tie all are loose ends feel unfortunetly.

The fact that echo's handler turns out to be the main boss in charge was completely unexpect. What I don't understand is why the guys' girlfriend killed that doctor that was trying to make Caroline happen if that is what they wanted in the first place.

I'm tempted to hammer so we can move on. I hate to see this game lose interest.

[farside22]

*Do not post in invisible/small text or otherwise attempt to hide the text of your posts.

Sorry if the spoiler is an infaction of this rule. I figured those who were behind on the show wouldn't want to know what the big twist was.

[farside22]

Unvote:
Vote: No Lynch

[farside22]

Didn't get a cop check. I want to hear from limerick and thebuttonman a bit since what I got had no investigation imprint and I want to see if anyone lies about their imprint before giving more details on how it works right this moment.

[farside22]

I'm ready and waiting... curious to hear what the imprints are like.

Have to say just from my POV I really want to pick iamausers brain when this game is over.
I don't want to go into details because if someone imprinted is scum I don't want to allow a fake claim to occur.

Anyone who wants me to explain what my imprint was please be patient till the other 2 come in.
As for the votes on KOC any reason for the votes right away and not waiting to see if Limerick or thebuttonman have a cop result?

[farside22]

I got a gun, which I holstered.

vote: Thebuttonmen

I better hear a really good explination on this.

Oh Buttonman.. your threat didn't stop me from hamering DN, it didn't stop me from pushing Starbuck, what makes you think that your threat of leaving your vote on me (where it has resided almost all game) would make me explain that?

It'll come in due time.

No, see your going to claim it's some secret magical bullshit code in the future that some how when interpreted says whatever you want it to say and somehow clears you and Elvis, you pulled the shit logic / plans before.

I hope so very very much I get Vig powers tonight.

I also don't believe in coincidences

[farside22]

If we had imprinted two I would have shot Elvis, with three imprints vigging was too much of a risk.

What reference where you given for your imprint?

[farside22]

Also please explain how you can hold a gun with this in the mod rules:

- At the end of each day,

all imprints received on the previous day by ordinary actives will be erased

. However, due to their resistance to the mindwiping procedure, rogue actives will retain all imprints indefinitely.

I'm calling BS

[farside22]

Farside, I think he meant he just didn't shoot.

You got that by reading this:

TheButtonmen wrote:
I got a gun, which I holstered.

It's possible but I still think the fact he talked about vigging someone and he got a gun is still too big of a coincidence to be believed.

[farside22]

It seemed more like "I got the ability to shoot, but didn't" in flavor terms

It's possible but I still think the fact he talked about vigging someone and he got a gun is still too big of a coincidence to be believed.

[farside22]

If we had imprinted two I would have shot Elvis, with three imprints vigging was too much of a risk.

Also why would you have shot at EK when all your post during day 3 was about shooting SC.

@ Serial, Yes I'd vig you but there's a lot more power roles then vig

.

Shooting is investigating.

Anyone else believe in coincidences?

[farside22]

2 vigs! what are the odds?

I got a doctor role. I figured if I'm a doc someone had a kill ability or it was WIFOM from the mod.
Anyways I was imprinted with erotomachia
Mini 470
I used my doc protect on SC figuring with all the talks from buttonman about shooting SC it was best to protect someone.

[farside22]

I'm going to have serious issues with the mod if all we got was 2 vigs and a doc for the night and both players that received a vig imprint are town.
I still think the odds of buttonmans statement about vigging is too hard to swallow.
Limerick receiving a vig role on top of that. I just can't fathom this.

[farside22]

Farside's keeping her imprint a secret just got a lot more intresting, as she A)Has tracker/watcher data that proves someone just lied or she B) had no reason to want to go last. (See her comment about catching one of us lying.)

I wanted to see if someone would fake claim their imprint and how far that lie would go.
Curiosity more then anything.

[farside22]

For me, the value in lynching buttonman has just gotten significantly higher, because I don't like his flavour and the fact he didn't vig despite saying he would

You think I'm scummy because of how I said I didn't shoot? Also I said i would vig back when it was two imprints (see my above post for explination) and I quite clearly that Elvis was my top scum choice, why would I shoot anyone other then my possible scum choice?

I'm trying to figure out why you didn't shoot and who you thought was scum if you thought someone else was going to kill. Also if you feel that you are going to shoot town then why think about shooting anyone at all. I read this as a worse case but it strikes me as scummy thought too.

7-3 -> NK from scum + Misvig -> 5-3 -> Mislynch + NK -> 3-3 = Town loses

If Scum got a NK and I misvigged it was LyLo with 3 suspects. As such due to the 3 imprints I wasn't willing to risk taking the shot as my scum read on Elvis is about 65-75%.

With 2 imprints, if there's a NK I didn't do I knew who was scum, three removed that certainty. Without that certainty risking putting it at Lylo wasn't something I was comfortable with.

These things make no sense. IE: willing to kill with only 2 imprints not 3. Doesn't say who he thinks is scum but comments about a misvig in his analysis.

in short so far happy with my vote

[farside22]

This is a fair point, unless he just shot me and is now lying about target.

Why would I lie about having shot you? You read the previous days, did I at anytime try to disguise my intentions?

saying you shot at someone is scummy. I'm sorry this isn't getting through to some people but I made a point on willing lynch buttonman had he shot at anyone unless the person flipped scum.
Saying I didn't shoot doesn't mean I believe him. Just my 2 cents

[farside22]

Her whole "I wanna claim last to make sure people claim the correct flavor" thing was pro-town. Not sure I buy Button's whole "I got a vig" but forgetting to claim what game he was from till later.

Her waiting to claim thing I actually see as slighty scummy as what she says is;

I wanted to see if someone would fake claim their imprint and how far that lie would go.

Yet she claimed Doc, How would she know if someone fake claimed? I see her going last as giving her the chance to see the other two claims and then claim something that she can't be called on. As both other imprints were for Vig I'm wondering if everyone who got imprinted last night got the same imprint.

As for the second part I wanted to keep what game/person I was a secret until other people had claimed as I was curious to see if there was a pattern in the names / games / game results / fate of the imprinting player and so on.

First of all someone had a claim order. Second I was given a doc role and wanted to see if scum was going to be given something that said they were imprinted without a character name. I wasn't sure what info if any scum would get.
What about my claim do you find false and reasoning do you find false

Lynch Elvis or Farside?

IE: They are questioning my motives let me OMGUS vote on one of them.

[farside22]

How do you know if Limerick was honest or not?

It's possible farside is lying, but I don't think she is. She could have just said vig like the two of you, she went last, she knew she couldn't be disproved.

I don't know he's being honest, I am inclined to believe him though based on how/when/what he claimed.

In regards to Farside, as you yourself said, Vigs are decent lynch targets, by claiming Doc she protects herself from that and if a NK does happen down the line she would get the suscipon from being imprinted however people would initally go for someone who had claimed Vig which would give the scum the free march they needed to win.

This sounds like buttonman saying I claimed vig therefore town. Farside claimed doc therefore scum.
Scum most likely in my view reading this game I can see getting imprinted with a kill the first time they are imprinted. Why? Because it makes sense from a mod prospective.
Also if you buttonman were given a doc role what would be your first thought on receiving that as an imprint with 2 other players out there also imprinted?

[farside22]

For me, the value in lynching buttonman has just gotten significantly higher, because I don't like his flavour and the fact he didn't vig despite saying he would

You think I'm scummy because of how I said I didn't shoot? Also I said i would vig back when it was two imprints (see my above post for explination) and I quite clearly that Elvis was my top scum choice, why would I shoot anyone other then my possible scum choice?

I'm trying to figure out why you didn't shoot and who you thought was scum if you thought someone else was going to kill. Also if you feel that you are going to shoot town then why think about shooting anyone at all. I read this as a worse case but it strikes me as scummy thought too.

7-3 -> NK from scum + Misvig -> 5-3 -> Mislynch + NK -> 3-3 = Town loses

If Scum got a NK and I misvigged it was LyLo with 3 suspects. As such due to the 3 imprints I wasn't willing to risk taking the shot as my scum read on Elvis is about 65-75%.

With 2 imprints, if there's a NK I didn't do I knew who was scum, three removed that certainty. Without that certainty risking putting it at Lylo wasn't something I was comfortable with.

These things make no sense. IE: willing to kill with only 2 imprints not 3. Doesn't say who he thinks is scum but comments about a misvig in his analysis.

in short so far happy with my vote

Still waiting on button to comment on my points here that he seems to miss.

[farside22]

Farside, what is your answer to this question:

If Button IS scum, why did he decline to shoot last night after so thoroughly setting up that he was going to? Cold feet?

Either I doc protected the right person or he thought about the fact he claimed boldly about vigging people and doing so after many people said it's bad would look scummy.
Not a mind reader but that's my view on it.

[farside22]

Also if you buttonman were given a doc role what would be your first thought on receiving that as an imprint with 2 other players out there also imprinted?

Would have protected Serial Cleargyman. As the two other imprinteded have stated they wouldn't be vigging if they got it and scum know his alignment and if he's town they could have killed him and put a great deal of suspicion on me and probably gotten me me lynched.

Didn't you say last post about vigging was vigging EK?

[farside22]

Lynch Elvis or Farside?

IE: They are questioning my motives let me OMGUS vote on one of them.

A) Didn't vote, B) Reasons are more then OMGUS, C) Been vocal about my thinking Elvis is scum long before this.

haven't seen you present a case on me thus far just questioning my claim and not saying why you think my claim scum. Your comment about wanting to lynch either myself or EK looks OMGUS not do to a vote but do to both of us questioning you today.
At least your lets lynch farside comment does

[farside22]

Still waiting on button to comment on my points here that he seems to miss.

It's 1:12 am, the site is slow a bag of molasses in the winter, you just posted them and I've already worked through half of them, I'm completly confused as to the speed you expect me to be responding at.

I know the site is acting like shit. It's pissing me off
I note you answered some people and missed questions I asked and it irks me you answer some questions on a post but not other questions

[farside22]

If we had imprinted two I would have shot Elvis, with three imprints vigging was too much of a risk.

Also why would you have shot at EK when all your post during day 3 was about shooting SC.

Except they weren't?

elvis_knits; She’s the reason I keep giving Serial a second chance as she set’s off my scummdar like no one else in this game and I’m fairly certain only one of the super buddies is scum. I think she’s scum

[farside22]

nvm I noted it was your last post of the day about EK and vigging her. Not that it was your last post just your last comment about vigging You didn't say it I went looking to see when you posted it.

[farside22]

Your comment about wanting to lynch either myself or EK looks OMGUS not do to a vote but do to both of us questioning you today.

Please stop trying to dictate who I can and can't be suscipous of. You find me odd/scummy/suspcious that's fine but I'm finding it odd that you keep questioning me changing my mind or finding certain people suspcious.

You have to be joking? This can't be serious.......I shouldn't question your motives? I shouldn't question why you changed your mind or how you talk about vigging yesterday and just happen to get vig as a role claim today?
Your seriously wondering why I'm questioning with all this?