Mini #717 - Alpha Centauri Smalltown (Game Over!)

[farside22]

Hi everyone. Very excited to play. Never did small town before.

[farside22]

Well I got 3 in my head so we will see.
Monkey I see Supersaint in your future.

[farside22]

Is anyone picking a role because they think it would be excellent to have as scum?

My choices where mainly just because it was something I wanted to play and havent' had the chance.

[farside22]

Why supersaint Farside, you think thats the least important role here? Give scum that role, along with a doctor or a redirector, and thats an invulnerable person right there.

As far as I know with supersaints they can't be saved by a doc or redirector. Usually superstaint days during the day and takes someone with them. Doc and redirect is night actions.

[farside22]

I'm going for

Inventor

. Don't care what the ramifications are.

[farside22]

farside, just out of curiosity, was Inventor one of the 3 you identified early?

Yes. I never got to be in inventor or JOAT's before. Always wanted the role.

[farside22]

Drunken Piper is next.

[farside22]

So I had a theory about this game before it started and I saw the roles.
Claiming in this game is going to be dumb, however I feel pressure on people is good. See what they say or how they react to certain idea's was something I considered so here is my thought.
What if we use the supersaint to flush out scum. Now bare with me on this.

We dont' know which role is scum. The SS could be scum (what a sucky thing to happen.) However looking at people who are scummy and telling them they need to hammer the SS could be informative.
Now I don't recommend this today. I recommend this as a thought later. Yes I know the likely hood of X player staying alive and X player being scum. However it could work if the town pulls together.

For now my vote is for Crazy based on games I have played and roles I have seen scum have in the past

vote: Crazy

[farside22]

SCUM - Empking + farside

and to a lesser extent Crazy.

SK - Occam

My first post predictions.

vote Occam

Yay someone who didn't get what I was saying or is scum

unvote:
vote: charter

See the thing you forgot is that in lylo using the SS is suicide for scum. Having scum hammer the SS or if the SS is scum and trying to get someone who is scum hammer the SS means the town's win.
You failed to reconize this or see it as scummy play because I feel you are scum.
Thanks for playing. Now on to lynching the scum.

[farside22]

4 votes already wow, seems a bit rushed

Do you think being BP is really helpful for the scum? Doesn't it sound like more likely a scum wanting to get rid of a person that is bullet proff?

[farside22]

I would think that in this setup that scum would have a very easy time working around a BP and killing off more important roles like tracker, jailer, any that could potentially out them

Lets see. You have RB, JK, VIG, one shot inventor, tracker, doc. Stop me when this makes sense.
The doc doesn't have to worry about the BP. The town can look at the BP if they look scummy. However mafia has many obstacles to already go through. Getting rid of one BP with weak reasoning is bad.

[farside22]

I would think that in this setup that scum would have a very easy time working around a BP and killing off more important roles like tracker, jailer, any that could potentially out them

EX-FREAKING-ZACTLY.

WE KNOW ALL THE POWER ROLES AND WHO HAS THEM. IT IS TOTALLY OUT IN THE OPEN. BP TOWNIE IS COMPLETELY USELESS.

That is all. If you think I deserve to get voted out for revealing the obvious, so be it.

But if we're talking about revealing the obvious, how about the fact that Farside basically ruined any chance we had at executing her plan by bringing it up on day one and basically putting a target on the SS?

unvote - vote: farside

Gee how is it obvious? Not to scum who would hate to see either there own person or have the SS around. My idea was to see if someone would call it scummy for bringing it up such as charter did. I brought up something scum would not want to have happen. That is not scummy. Your act is the exact opposite. It gets rid of a power role based on what you and only you and grem apparently feel is useless.

unvote:
vote: occam

I was waiting to see if you had a reason. Now I think you are running scared.

[farside22]

Cephir does look like a bandwagon vote

It doesn't just look like a bandwagon vote, it's the most blatent bandwagon vote I've ever seen that didn't come right out and say "I'm voting to bandwagon".

Or alternatively, it looks like

a random vote

.

No it doesn't.

Now you're lieing. LAL.

Where do you see that cephrir was voting on occum based on the votes on him already?

[farside22]

Cephir does look like a bandwagon vote

It doesn't just look like a bandwagon vote, it's the most blatent bandwagon vote I've ever seen that didn't come right out and say "I'm voting to bandwagon".

Or alternatively, it looks like

a random vote

.

No it doesn't.

Now you're lieing. LAL.

Where do you see that cephrir was voting on occum based on the votes on him already?

Vote: Occam for no particular reason.

Where do you see that cephrir was voting on occum based on the votes on him already

?

Yes it looks like a BW. Cephrir is stating it was random. Oman is calling him a liar. Why? Based on what?

[farside22]

The fact that its a fantastic coincidence that he apparently hasn't been reading the posts above him and then all of a sudden votes the guy with the biggest wagon.

C'mon!

So you don't believe Occum had a knee jerk reaction to the votes on him? Do you really belive a pro-town person votes themself?
I do agree that cephrir's vote and no reason at the time look rediculous. I just don't like Occum's post or self vote.

[farside22]

The fact that its a fantastic coincidence that he apparently hasn't been reading the posts above him and then all of a sudden votes the guy with the biggest wagon.

C'mon!

So you don't believe Occum had a knee jerk reaction to the votes on him? Do you really belive a pro-town person votes themself?
I do agree that cephrir's vote and no reason at the time look rediculous. I just don't like Occum's post or self vote.

I refuse to believe occum's self vote as anything more that what it usually is: a null tell. Its interesting, but not able to be analysed right now.

you see there are too many variables to deal with here. I can give you one scum-occum for every town-occum scenario you give me. And one town-occum for every scum given to me.

We'll look back on it later, especially if occum is scum.

I think self voting when he did and saying it's town is terrible thing to say. It's not a null thing in my view. The are very, very few times I vote for self and I can see scum doing it to gain sympathy.

[farside22]

I refuse to believe occum's self vote as anything more that what it usually is: a null tell. Its interesting, but not able to be analysed right now.

you see there are too many variables to deal with here. I can give you one scum-occum for every town-occum scenario you give me. And one town-occum for every scum given to me.

We'll look back on it later, especially if occum is scum.

I think self voting when he did and saying it's town is terrible thing to say. It's not a null thing in my view. The are very, very few times I vote for self and I can see scum doing it to gain sympathy.

You see scumtell, I see nulltell. We're different. I'll review it later, but you must agree that ciphrirs clean lie is a worse act than a selfvote.

No because he did it when he was under pressure and he attacked with a weak vote on me basically saying what I did was the same as what he did, which is false. So no.
Where cephrir deffinately needs to explain himself.

[farside22]

Did I miss something on page one. I see nothing about a SK in the game. Is it normal for a SK in small town? I ask because the assumption there is a SK makes my head hurt.

[farside22]

Dude, are you seriously asking me why you being scum is dangerous for the town? WTF is your deal? Scum is dangerous to the town by virtue of being scum - THAT'S THE FOUNDATION THE GAME IS FOUNDED ON.

Any role is dangerous in the hands of scum. The point is you targeted a BP role now you say to start conversation and nowhere till now did you even state that was your reason. I see a multitude of "reasons" why you voted as such. Each one sounds as fake as the next.

[farside22]

One other point,
up in this joint.

(sip)

Did I miss something on page one. I see nothing about a SK in the game. Is it normal for a SK in small town? I ask because the assumption there is a SK makes my head hurt.

you just ran a game that had 3 mafia and a SK...so this post is standing out.

Yes. All I saw when I took a quick look at the front was the characters. I did not see the post about alignments.
You really don't think I'm that stupid do you?

Farside - what does Occam's reactionary emotionalness say to you?

He is being emotional. It could be someone scared they got caught. Or a townie that is pissed at making a dumb mistake and not answering it well enough.
Seriously though I thinking the first and I will tell you why. Read the answer I have to the question below.

Where are these "multitude of reasons"? If I recall correctly I only gave one, and it was genuine.

Reason number 1 on your vote:

Bulletproof sounds dangerous in the hands of scum and essentially useless for town, since everyone already knows who's bulletproof. Based on that:

Reason #2 for you vote:

Just FTR I still don't think BP is a significant town role in comparison to all the others.

Reason #3 for the BP vote:

I have explained to you why I think your role is useless compared to the rest. I never said you were. In fact, nothing in my case was based on anything you did. It was purely to motivate role discussion - which it did. You act like I had five votes or something - it was one vote.

Reason #4 for the BP vote:

But as far as roles go, BP is the least useful of the roles we have. Period. I'm done discussing BP and am ready to move on if you are - my vote is already elsewhere

Reason #5 for the BP vote:

So you're saying that, when someone votes, they're required to say: "I am voting for DP because I want to start discussion". I'll tell you what happens when people come out with things like that - it goes nowhere. It's just like saying "I voted for you for pressure".

What is the point of all this you ask. Well it's the fact he kept defending his point that BP is useless and then final says it was to start a conversation. I find this a cheap way to get out of something that was a person under pressure.

[farside22]

Obviously BP is not useless. If he plays a good protown game he can't be taken out. Yes, it is probably one of the weaker roles; I still don't get why that would automatically make him a lynch target.

Farside, those 5 reasons are basically the same reason a lot of times. #5 isn't even a reason to vote someone. Occam just voted and then was forced to defend his vote.

As Cephrr is only on three.

Unvote

Vote: Cephrir

Why?

Yes however he did state he got the conversation started as a defense which irked me even more because as I pointed out he never stated that as a reason the number of times he defended it. All he states over and over again is the uselessness of a role. Hell I almost took BP myself just so I could live past day one. (seriously look at how many times I survive pass night 0 these days).

[farside22]

I think self voting when he did and saying it's town is terrible thing to say. It's not a null thing in my view. The are very, very few times I vote for self and I can see scum doing it to gain sympathy.

You perceive it as a scumtell (as do most people I reckon), but you think scum would do it anyway to gain sympathy? How is committing a commonly accepted scumtell supposed to give scum sympathy? And how does it just give scum sympathy and not townies?

For the record, I see it as a null tell as well. I don't see any advantage scum gains over town for doing it.

116- Christ, you want the first person you vote for lynched? Occam is right on this one.

I don't see anything wrong or scummy with Occam's posts.
I think Ceph might be scum.
I will

vote farside

because I think she is scum.

Voting for himself at and not a hammer to gain sympathy is scummy. He succeed to stopping pressure from a horrid comment.
He succeed in getting you to unvote why is that exactly?

I see scum I will lynch scum. Go me.

Really you know who the BP hurts, scum or the SK. Not the town that is for sure. It is one less person for the scum or SK to not focus on so who else would want to get rid of a "useless" role?
So you think Ceph is scum but think I'm scum with no reason. Lovely. Good scum hunting skills if you have them.

[farside22]

Whether sarcastic or not (IE sarcasm is not always noticeable on the computer) you did call me scum
[quote="charter"]

SCUM - Empking + farside

[quote]

[farside22]

What yorgi said. ^

[farside22]

Hello, failed alt :}

I have the power to delete that post, but mods are not happy with people who do that so sucks that I failed at logging out.

[farside22]

FACT - In my first post, I decreed three people scum and one a SK.
FACT - I gave ZERO reasoning for any of that.
FACT - You accuse me of saying one of your ideas is scummy.
FACT - I never said that idea was scummy. (I've already gotten over the fact that you made it up for me, now I want to know why) In fact, I didn't even read it, just saw a large chuck of text, and skipped it.
QUESTION - Why did you accuse me of thinking your idea was scummy, when I never said it was?
FACT - No one else I decreed scum or SK thought twice (or even acknowledged) my post.
CONJECTURE - farside is incredibly jumpy, and takes to being called scum MUCH more seriously than I think is warrented. I think she is scum.

1 and 2 are Facts by the way.
3 why would you say I was scum and not read my post?
4. Why did you say I was scum with empking if you didn't read the post
Answer see points 3 and 4.
6 is a fact
conjecture is an opinion. I'm stating my opinion too. Weeee

farside, you are dodging all of my (scumhunting) questions, and not doing a good job of it at all either.

What question am I dodging. Oh wait I'm not I'm answering the questions and you don't like my answers that's all. How is voting for self not scummy again? Why did you unvote (still unanswered speaking of dodging questions)


Wah people are picking on me I'm going to vote self now.

Whatever the reason it was a way to gain sympathy from a few saying "wow this BW is moving fast and I don't like it"

meta is way over rated and is not a case.

[farside22]

I explained why I self-voted and it wasn't for "sympathy". I knew my wagon was ridiculous and unfounded and I knew being at L-1 would make people realize that. Charter was the first - he unvoted, and I did too. That's not sympathy, that's an objective, which farside apparently recognizes but still calls sympathy:

Whatever the reason it was a way to gain sympathy from a few saying "wow this BW is moving fast and I don't like it"

Do you disagree that it was moving way too fast? Because it was, and I don't see how you can argue that what I did was anti-town.

Self voting is anti-town. Anyone who says different is smoking crack.

[farside22]

Self voting is anti-town. Anyone who says different is smoking crack.

Grr... that's totally untrue. I'm willing to bet most experienced players would completely disagree with you. It all depends on the situation.

Plus, anti-town doesn't = scum.

Plus, it wasn't anti-town.

I think farside is smoking crack.

Really. Talk with Mr. Flay who will actually ban an IC who vote themselves when they are town. Look at the talks below and tell me how many people actually say it is not anti-town to self vote.
Your proof it's not anti town is......

[farside22]

Talk with Mr. Flay who will actually ban an IC who vote themselves when they are town.

Right, in a NEWBIE GAME. That's a completely different scenario, and it doesn't apply here.

Look at the talks below and tell me how many people actually say it is not anti-town to self vote.

[farside22]

Damn people keeping me up looking stuff up and all.

http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.p ... light=self

As I said most people consider it anti town.

And Flay says it best as always:

Self-lynching is only useful as a Jester (a role which IMO shouldn't exist) or as scum. I did this to good advantage in Newbie 436 to throw off the town's read of D2 (after successfully arguing cicero out of doing it himself on D1). It cuts short discussion, throws off vote tracking, and otherwise disrupts with scumhunting.

It's NEVER a good idea as town. Anyone who threatens to do so should be lynched or beaten severely about the head and shoulders.

Your proof is?

[farside22]

@Farside, me saying I think Ceph could be scum because of meta hardly constitutes a case. I can see you aren't going to answer my questions, so I have to assume the answers incriminate you. As a side note, I'd be careful about linking to MD threads, I've been modkilled for doing it.

What question am I dodging. Oh wait I'm not I'm answering the questions and you don't like my answers that's all. How is voting for self not scummy again? Why did you unvote (still unanswered speaking of dodging questions)

[farside22]

Self-lynching is only useful as a Jester (a role which IMO shouldn't exist) or as scum. I did this to good advantage in Newbie 436 to throw off the town's read of D2 (after successfully arguing cicero out of doing it himself on D1). It cuts short discussion, throws off vote tracking, and otherwise disrupts with scumhunting.

It's NEVER a good idea as town. Anyone who threatens to do so should be lynched or beaten severely about the head and shoulders.

This is about self-LYNCHING! i SELF-VOTED. Obviously self-LYNCHING is anti-town, but that's not what I did, and obviously there is an ENORMOUS difference.

Monkey is wrong about everything he's said on this page and I love how he's setting up lynches in advance.

Fos: Monkey

What if for a second I believed you as town. What happens when you put yourself at L-1 and some scum still hasn't voted. Your vote, your single vote is in terms self lynching at that point. Deal with it.

[farside22]

Actually I think farside needs my vote for this ridiculous misrep.

unvote - vote: farside

The main problem I had with Ceph was the BW, which is still suspicious, but Farside's been truly scummy as of late.

I show a valid point and the best you have is I'm misrep the vote? Really the fact that someone unvoted you looks more suspicious as scum don't mind having an L-1 vote. A town person should be worried about L-1.
Nice OMGUS vote by the way.

[farside22]

Really the fact that someone unvoted you looks more suspicious as scum don't mind having an L-1 vote. A town person should be worried about L-1.

Scum would be more worried about being at L-1 than town, dude. Think.

Nice OMGUS vote by the way. Rolling Eyes

Another misrep, and a predictable one at that.

Look farside, I think you have some serious theory issues. I'm not going to waste my time trying to teach you anything about theory as you apparently dont know the difference between a self-vote and a self-lynch, even though those terms define themselves. Just because someone votes you back doesn't make it OMGUS. If there's a reason for a vote there's a reason for it, and there most definitely is in this case.

Why the hell would scum worry about L-1 everyone person on this site talks to death before lynching. So any scum who is concerned on page 3 about being at L-1 is laughable. Townie on the other hand worry about the quick hammer that scum is known to pull. Yes it can out a scum but in the mean time talks stop and kills happen.

Really I see no case you brought forth against me. All you have done is say I'm misrep. I see no other reason for that vote.

[farside22]

alright then could you kindly explain to me how a role who's sole power is to be immune to a night kill makes it more dangerous than normal to be in the hands of the group doing the most night killing.

He's not lynch proof

He's not going to be a wasted Vig kill

in fact the worst case scenario would be a BP SK, not scum

BP can be scum, SK or townie in this set up. However it is usaullay an anti group that would like to have the BP lynched.

[farside22]

Really I see no case you brought forth against me. All you have done is say I'm misrep. I see no other reason for that vote.

Please read the game then. I've been calling you out since the game started because you've been misrepping and using bullshit arguments against me all game. I'll lay them out for your convenience:

1. I voted for you once already:

But if we're talking about revealing the obvious, how about the fact that Farside basically ruined any chance we had at executing her plan by bringing it up on day one and basically putting a target on the SS?

unvote - vote: farside

Funny I brought this up and you liked the idea on one page but when you are critisized for your comment you bring this up as a shield.

2. You feigned ignorance about there being an SK:

Did I miss something on page one. I see nothing about a SK in the game. Is it normal for a SK in small town? I ask because the assumption there is a SK makes my head hurt.

I explained this already. Note you ignored by reason and are calling it feigned ignorance. How is this really scummy act?

immediately made me think you were probably the SK, especially since you attempted to make me look bad for "assuming" there was an SK when it was clearly stated on the first page.

Yay or I looked at the frong page as I said and didn't notice the open roles for each faction.

3. You gave "5 reasons" for my explaining my vote, and myself and Cephrir noted:

As Ceph said you cited the same reason worded 5 different ways.

Showed you were talking, talking and talking about how BP is useless then after more pressure brought up that you got conversation started by making said comment. Funny not mentioned earlier or the number of times you called BP useless

4. You have misrepped me several times and used an argument regarding self-lynching to attempt (and fail) to prove that SELF-VOTING is anti-town.

Once again how is self voting not anti town. I showed different people stating how it is bad for the town and can lead to a lynch. What part of that do you keep missing or should I say dismissing.

All my points on why L-1 for town is worse then for scum can't be just WIFOM because this site proves that no people like to talk to death. Scum know it. Only people I ever seen do a quick hammer was scum. Proff. Look at every game and tell me a townie that did it. Anything else you wish to dismiss?

[farside22]

Once again how is self voting not anti town. I showed different people stating how it is bad for the town and can lead to a lynch. What part of that do you keep missing or should I say dismissing.

The point you brought up doesn't apply because it was about self-lynching, plain and simple. Bring me some evidence of self-VOTING being anti-town.... then we'll talk. If you do, I'll bring some evidence of it being protown, and then we can agree that it's a nulltell.

Self-voting in the random stage is anti-town, and therefore scummy (basically what dasquian said)

Later on, its even more anti-town.

I'm not sure how individual people define "anti-town," but I would argue that by its very nature, an "anti-town play" is something that is hurtful to the town('s chances of winning). Except in VERY RARE situations, self-voting accomplishes nothing beneficial for the town. Thus, anti-town play is more benficial for scums than pro-town play. Thus, theoretically, scums are significantly more likely to exhibit anti-town play.

I got two here for you to ponder on. Show how self voting is not anti town now.

[farside22]

I love how occam just ingores the quotes when they state explicately self voting in the comment and not self lynching. Is that what you keep doing just ignore things and say it says something it does not.

[farside22]

Most of the ones you brought up where those who are vanilla town. This game has no vanilla. Second the key points. One was a late game I'm screwed type comment the first comment is people who self vote during the random phase. None of which you did. The I self votes are from people who self vote as meta and don't care. Do you have meta that you self vote?
In conclusion self voting is anti town.
Al your case is me telling you it's anti town. I also pointed out your inconsistancy from saying my idea is cool to voting for me for said idea.
Placing a vote on a BP stating that it is a useless role as a reason and thinking it's a good reason to vote.
Your knee jerk reaction to my attacks. Also charter's unvote is noted as more of something I suspect a scum buddy to help out his scum buddy. So don't act all look at what charcter did attitude.

As for scum that hammer check out Newbie 669 and Sens quick hammer on a claimed doc. Then show me a game where town quick hammered.

[farside22]

Second the key points. One was a late game I'm screwed type comment the first comment is people who self vote during the random phase. None of which you did. The I self votes are from people who self vote as meta and don't care. Do you have meta that you self vote?

Just to clarify why you can't draw the "self-voting is anti-town" conclusion you made is wrong:

1. My whole point was that it isn't ALWAYS anti-town, so admit it. I want to hear you say it.
2. Of course I don't have that meta. I don't have a meta at all.
3. I also want you to realize and admit that my self-vote in this game was not anti-town.

1. never
2. only people with meta get away with it. Nat always self votes but it's during the random stage.
3. never

Yay! Call me stubborn but the timing is way suspicious.
Good do I really have to go to every freakin game where scum quick hammered to make you happy with my point? Seriously.

mutters
farside do this. farside do that. farside you suck.

[farside22]

@farside:

2. only people with meta get away with it. Nat always self votes but it's during the random stage.

Do you allow people to get away with things based on meta? That would tell me a lot about what kind of player/scumhunter you are. A lot.

Not every player has meta. People who believe that every player has a meta is a wrong. However there are some players (IE: few) that what they do they will do in every game because that is the type of player they want to be or are. So for those players that do act like that, Yes. For those who are inconsistant, No.

[farside22]

Cephrir gets the point. Yay. Finally. I agree I was being a jerk because I feel like Occam is just being rediculous on his vote reasons.

unvote:

I need to look at stuff I missed during the argument.

[farside22]

Wait Crazy's in this game and being quiet:

Woop, woop, woop, meta scum alert. This is not a test

vote: Crazy

As I said there are a few players meta works because they play a certain way each time. Crazy being quiet as he is, is almost always scum.

[farside22]

Crazy has only made 5 total posts sitewide since the 14th, and is evidently playing in a good number of game, so I'm not sure that justifies a vote regardless of meta.

God, I hate meta.

Since he picked his choice for this game he has made a total of 10 post all on other games.
Note his last post was Dec 13, today is Dec 17.
You really believe his lack of post in this game is not suggestive in any way?

[farside22]

Pheff the only chat has been me and occam. charter what about my post is it that you really find scummy. Do you think it's okay for someone who claims to be town to put themselves at L-1?
I've done more debating in this game but scum hunting when arguing is going on arguing always wins.
The only other person besides crazy I question is you. Someone who is making the "sacrific" to unvote someone at L-1 because what a town thing to do is complete BS.
I never invented anything. I showed where people find self voting anti town. Occam shows those who do it and think it's fun to do. I still believe it is not in the best interest of the town to self vote.
I think you YELLING doesn't not make you look like oh look I'm scum hunting as you say. All you are doing is twisting everything said because I find self voting anti town.
I find Occam comment from one post to another post questionable (which he admitted) and yes the whole BP is useless crap that I disagree with.
No role is useless this game. Players are useless if they are not playing. Hence my vote on Crazy who is I know as a lurker when he is scum.

[farside22]

I also think it's worth noting that all it took for farside to drop her whole case on me and unvote was for Oman to speak up against it and Ceph to "get the point":

Cephrir gets the point. Yay. Finally. I agree I was being a jerk because I feel like Occam is just being rediculous on his vote reasons.

Neither my vote reasons nor my note changed, but for some reason your vote did.

We were the only one's talking. Someone actually got the point. The fact that you and charter are still arguing the point is noted.
Here is what cephrir stated that I agreed with that only Oman and him seemed to note with different terms:

This whole discussion is mostly irrelevant. It doesn't even matter who's right, and the fact that you're voting for each other over it seems pretty ridiculous to me.

I stated many times I thought your vote and reason's were ridiculous and I still do. However you want to stand by some dumb ass reason because I truly people self voting is anti town more power to you. Guess what you are of the opinion your right. I see someone unvoting quickly as charter did you bet I'm going to question the fuck out of it. I see someone self vote saying they are making a point. You bet I will call it anti town.
Your reasons for voting me is based on my belief where charter is saying I'm not scum hunting is the most nuttiest thing I have heard this game.

[farside22]

I'm going to answer these questions and comments and after I get some things done I will read the game again for those things I missed.

57 - Farside says one of the dumbest things in mafia "I did something scummy but you missed it therefor you're scum." Farside, your plan there sucked from either angle. And I also wonder what your intention was?

I think my problem is I see people do this in every game and I wanted to see if there was any fact in it. They do something scummy and say look at the scum jump at ti.

65 - Farside basically calls Gremwell out for not joining the bandwagon, specifically: "Do you think being BP is really helpful for the scum?" The interesting thing is that Gremwell didn't say this at all Gremwell said a four vote wagon was a bit rushed, which is completely legitimate and doesn't make any comment on BP in any way, only on the legitimacy of Occam-wagon. Farside seems desperate to get Occam lynched here, or just push blame onto someone. However, that is a hasty conclusion I don't want to jump to.

I felt and do feel Occam's self vote and comments on the BP very anti town. I want to know why someone doesn't think it what there motive is. Scum love to jump on opportunity when it comes to voting and lynching someone that is town. When I see someone unvote and others talk about it I want to know are they scum looking town or town that is confused.

Farside What do you think of the line "You're hunting all right, you just don't care you you shoot is the problem."

Sen's is in the game?!?!
No sorry I would say that it's not what I'm doing.I really think Occam's vote for himself was anti-town. I think when he did it was horrible. I remember a game page 3 where scum did hammer someone at L-1 so yes if someone is town and thinks no scum wouldn't do something like that. They are living a lie or they are scum and have nothing to worry about.

[farside22]

Chater: post 56 your predicition post why would you vote for the person you predict is the SK?
Cephrir: post 62 what do you consider a useless pr in this game?
Gremwell: Post 74 why did you think the votes where random. Only Cephrir stated no reason for his vote.

Just a note for Occam. charter stated the following:

Every game I've been in with a lynch in 3 or so pages or less for day one has resulted in a town loss... More later.

Do you believe that scum would not hammer with that thought in mind?
Empking: post 88 why did you feel the need to put this statement in bold and what was stoping you?
Cephrir post 101 OMGUS much.
Cephrir: Post 106 How is it do you read a game and not notice votes? FOS
Empking: Post 136 can you, you know try and give a view on each player please.
charter: Post 151 I answered your questions but you keep claiming I'm not. I think you just like to hear yourself talk.
Occam: Post 177

FOS

just for ignoring my post in 176 saying it's not self lynching because L-1 vote is in terms if someone hammers self lynching.
Gremwell Post 178 seems to follow the leader. I want opinions about everyone in the game from you.

Occam post Points against me: #1 Hi pot this is kettle guess what?
Post 2. Wow did you ever bring this up. (looks) nope not once till now. How convients.
3. Yeah for some reason I thought you said more then BP is useless for town by bad.
4. Not a misrep. You keep missing my point.
Empking: post 230 Yay I think we both learned something from a game where we stubbornish isn't always right.
Gremwell Post 234: Bad, just bad. You know better then to try and line up lynches and tell PR's what to do. Horrible logic.

FOS

Mod: Please prod the following players:
Crazy

[farside22]

Yeah, this last page of Gremwell's posts have been bad.

FoS: Gremwell

Farside

88, was a sort of FoS. I don't think posting my thoughts on players I think are Pro-Town would be good for the town.

Players who you think are scum is all I want. You have been really quiet this game compared to our last it it makes me itch.

[farside22]

Occam the post in question is in regards to what you said here about me.

1. I voted for you once already:

But if we're talking about revealing the obvious, how about the fact that Farside basically ruined any chance we had at executing her plan by bringing it up on day one and basically putting a target on the SS?

unvote - vote: farside

2. You feigned ignorance about there being an SK:

Did I miss something on page one. I see nothing about a SK in the game. Is it normal for a SK in small town? I ask because the assumption there is a SK makes my head hurt.

immediately made me think you were probably the SK, especially since you attempted to make me look bad for "assuming" there was an SK when it was clearly stated on the first page.

3. You gave "5 reasons" for my explaining my vote, and myself and Cephrir noted:

As Ceph said you cited the same reason worded 5 different ways.

4. You have misrepped me several times and used an argument regarding self-lynching to attempt (and fail) to prove that SELF-VOTING is anti-town.

[farside22]

Ha. Thought it seemed wierd, but I didn't really read it carefully. But yeah, MM is now a solid number two, right after farside,

Why did you have to wait till someone else pointed it out before saying anything?

[farside22]

I'm not being panicky, I'm trying to get an explanation for being FOS'd without reasoning.

I don't know why you were Fos'd, but you pretty much blew up over it. Also, I just looked back over your posts because I can't really remember you talking very much. You've said about as little as Gremwell. You aren't trying to find scum either, you're just trying to fit in and avoid suspicion.

Ha. Thought it seemed wierd, but I didn't really read it carefully. But yeah, MM is now a solid number two, right after farside,

Why did you have to wait till someone else pointed it out before saying anything?

I read it once briefly, I thought it was odd. When Oman pointed it out I gave it more attention and realized why it was odd. For the love of god, stop trying to use pointless crap. Try and actually do something useful in this game. Why not comment on Gremwell's utter lack of contribution, or his recent very scummy idea? Why not comment on MM's gross overreaction to being called likely scum in the event Occam is scum? Why do you only post terrible logic and pointless questions?

I don't thinks it's crap and I would appreciate if you stop calling things I say crap.

[farside22]

MM certainly looks panicy just for a comment made by one player: (Post 257)
chater: Post 276 I dont' like when players stat Oh I thought that sounded weird too comments. It irks me because why not say anything sooner. Means you are worried about what people will say if you bring it up, which = scum to me.
MM: Post 287: Not what you said at all.
MM: Post 295: How big of you

MM did a over reaction to a simple comment. I get a scum squiring who got caught comment from post 257. Like the what did I do. There was no reason for him to react as he has and post 287 is not what was said at all.

unvote:
vote: MonkeyMan576

[farside22]

Yeah, if I had to call it right now, it would be Grem and MM as the S.C.U.M., and farside as the Narcissist. And I'm pretty sure about that.

Knowing you are wrong about me I will take that bet and make my own thoughts as scum.
MM and charter. (charter is way to mean about a simple question and him saying MM is a second choice makes me thing partners and him hoping for a mislynch on Grem. SK is a little bit harder for me. Still would like to hear more from the Crazy replacement.

[farside22]

I want to see if farside jumps off the monkeyman wagon.

I won't be unless someone does something just as scummy.
I find the MM wagon informative. Actually both votes going as they are I find both informative but believe MM scummy compared to Grem. I think those on Grem are seeing what he said as scummy and I understand the reasons. I just disagree. Yes what he said was bad. I even FOS'ed, well I cant' smack the boy for saying something anti-town can I? Seriously though when he stated why and what he learned from it I thought it was a good thought process. Everyone is jumping on him because he did it for reaction. Now I don't know if this is true or not. It is pretty dumb thing to say.
MM on the other hand is over reacting to a simple statement. When he said "but I didn't say anything to or about empking" that just makes me go hmmm. It's a very weird comment to make. Not why do you think I"m scum, but he notes the interactions you made a comment on. Then he lies about what he said and that just sends of my scumdar.
So if you are going to ask me if I"m switching to Grem the answer is no.

[farside22]

I admit 184 caught my attention the most in all that. I'm not going to argue about other stuff.
For the mafia to have the most kills that would assume the vig is part of the mafia group or am I incorrect with that thinking?
Looks at roles in front.
Nope just the vig would make the scum able to be a group with "the most night killing". Just something to ponder.
Occam I know you think I'm SK or scum but why do you believe 261 is bull crap?

[farside22]

I seriously want to go back to voting crazy (now RR) seeing as RR has been posting everywhere but here and it just gets to me.

[farside22]

RR: I answer charters questions. If there is a question I missed please point out which question it is.

farside's 309

I noticed you missed the fact Occam did the same thing a post ahead of me and I was commenting back my thoughts on scum.

Farside's 327 - reading an entire game requires me to set aside a lot of time, unlike posting short updates on specific matters. Took me a while to find that time. I still think you just figured Crazy/me a comfortable target and good means to move your vote away from Occam.

I find scum lurk and scum lurk. It's easy to stay out of the spotlight when you don't say anything. I didn't like that Crazy was posting elsewhere then disappeared. I ddint' care for you coming in and then not posting here but posting elsewhere when the person who you replaced was MIA.

[farside22]

RR: I answer charters questions. If there is a question I missed please point out which question it is.

I really don't feel like investing more time on cheking right now, so where did you answer them?

You just did the f@#ing reread and accused me of not answering questions so why don't you do the search. F@#ing lazy people.

I noticed you missed the fact Occam did the same thing a post ahead of me and I was commenting back my thoughts on scum.

Yeah, only without that possible slip. How is that relevant?

IS/ AS try mistype.

I find scum lurk and scum lurk. It's easy to stay out of the spotlight when you don't say anything. I didn't like that Crazy was posting elsewhere then disappeared. I ddint' care for you coming in and then not posting here but posting elsewhere when the person who you replaced was MIA.

I already explained why I didn't, you seem comfortable ignoring that to continue attacking Crazy/me for lurking.

I put my thoughts on why I find it scummy during the time in question.[/

quote]

[farside22]

You just did the f@#ing reread and accused me of not answering questions so why don't you do the search. F@#ing lazy people.

I just spent like two hours going through the thread, and don't recall a satisfactory answer to charter's case. I don't feel like rechecking right now, I spent enough time reading this and do have a life outside of this game. I don't appreciate your tone.

Well I spent several days arguing with occam and charter. Answer charters questions who said I didn't answer the question. I stated I did and said he did not like my answers and then dropped it. So I'm not feeling all nice when someone brings up the same damn thing and doesn't tell me what I missed. It is aggrevating.

[farside22]

And farside, you did not answer my questions, I dropped it because the refusal to answer was probably more incriminating than whatever answers you would have given.

And I keep asking what question did I not answer and you have yet to tell me.

[farside22]

MM is actually scummier than Gremwell. And now I am really beginning to think of an MM/Occam pair -

1. MM overreacts when I say that he could be scum with Occam

2. He easily jumps off the Occam wagon, stating constantly that iif another wagon forms on Gremwell (the most likely besides himself and Occam) he will jump onto it though not "letting Occam off" at all.

3. Both have acted independantly scummy (though until this, I admit I didn't see Occam as terribly scummy, and wanted to look past him, but this is too big for me to overlook).

1. I thought it was more about his comment in regards to Empking and how he reacted to those two as buddies. Instead of saying your smoking crack he wants to know what he did to show him as scum buddies with Emp.
2. Agree. I don't think MM even had a case on Grem till someone else brought it up, plus is vote looks more to save his own but then scum hunting
3. Something in my gut say MM scum and Grem isn't but I really want him to reply to that post about scum doing more killing comment.

[farside22]

[
Farside, give the kid some Christmas love from all of us scummers. Let him lynch one of the other kids in the neighbourhood or something.

Are you talking about Grem?

[farside22]

[
Farside, give the kid some Christmas love from all of us scummers. Let him lynch one of the other kids in the neighbourhood or something.

Are you talking about Grem?

Your....child. The little one. Human offspring.

I bought the little guy a rocking horse then converts and will roll like a bike. I plan on letting him out to terrorize the cats with that thing.
Remind me to get the pic of him grabbing the cat by the tail and posting it somewhere after X-mas. So I think he is more likely to lynch a cat then a neighborhood child right now.

[farside22]

Occam: Why do you feel both Grem and MM are scum?
Grem: I want to know what made you say that scum has more killing ability in post 184
MM: There was no vote against you when Oman made the statement he did in regards to your scum partners. He stated that Occam (disagree by the way) and Emp where your partners and you made a comment about how you were associated with Emp. This has been stated by myself before but you keep just saying nothing about your own reaction and now you are saying you reacted to a vote.

[farside22]

I would appreciate an answer from Grem if anyone is thinking of hammering I ask that you wait. In fact till I get an answer

unvote

grem please explain you scum nk's comment post 184

[farside22]

Ok...so...still reading...

Several other people agree Occam's logic is bad, vote for him...

While his logic was bad, I'm not sure there's enough reason for a wagon this large...

And, then, on page 4, he votes himself, putting himself at lynch -1. An anti-town move, and a possible scum gambit.

fos:Occam

Yay Yos. No offense but it's nice to have someone say the same f@#$ing thing as I said.

[farside22]

, he says that the scum do "the most night killing" in a setup where there are two other NK roles

Well, I will point out that he is correct here, so long as you remember that both the mafia and the SK are considered scum; of the 3 roles that can kill every night (mafia, SK, and vig) at least 2 of the 3 are scum, so most night killing will be done by scum.

That being said, I agree with the rest of the case againt grem here. He's probably my main suspect as of this point.

Ok, have to go out now; will continue the read later.

I keep forgetting that people equate scum as sk and mafia. Here I was thinking charter was bussing his scum partner and his scum partner made an error with that comment.



Sigh I still don't like the comment or charter's. I feel like charter is scum and one of MM or Grem as his scum buddies. I just can't get that nagging feeling off of me.

[farside22]

Farside, is the reason you still think I'm scum because you invented me saying your idea was scummy? Or is just pure OMGUS?

3 reasons

1 your unvote of Occam. The timing the reason it feels off.
2 your claim of saying I didn't answer your questions and failing to tell me which questions, but telling people I didn't answer your questions. I don't like people who say you aren't answering my question when the question has been answered. It's a false statement
3 lets just say your post leave a bad taste in my mouth that my gut says this is scum. I just can't get my head on what it is that my gut doesn't like.

[farside22]

No more discussing vigs….we should be discussing how we are going to claim tomorrow…I think Dicecorn (Popcorn Dice) It is the most random so scum can not manipulate.

Straight Popcorn is better.

Can someone explain? Don't know the terminology.

popcorn is when the person who claims picks the next person to claim. I never did dice popcorn before but I believe the person who claims roles a die instead of picking and that person claims. I really don't know what diepopcorn would reveal that popcorn does better?

[farside22]

Farside isn't putting a vote down. Why is this? Even an Occam vote would make me happy because I often look at end of day vote counts to get information and she's skewing it a bit. Granted if she is tossing up several possibilities that makes sense....


On tomorrow's target claims, straight popcorn is the way to go. It gives us heaps of information when scumflip just based on who they choose.

I was thinking about Grem and what he said the Yos2 made a point and I am pondering some things that bother me in the back of my head. I believe Grem may be the scum or MM. I think one of them is the right call. (call this gut if you will). MM just writes everyone's points off and lied about what he was being called on. Grem has disappeared which makes me very weirded out, but I read he isn't posting anywhere so it just null at this point.
I had hoped Grem would have said something before Yos2 did, but it can't be helped.
I'm going to stick with the wishy washyness that is MM at this point.

vote: Monkey

[farside22]

Oh thats right, you had the vote removed to avoid the hammer, is that right?

Could Grem

and

MM be scum or just one or the other?

I don't know. I feel like one is scum for sure. Just that something feels off I can't explain feeling. One could be the SK. I really don't believe they are scum together. Just the back and forth. MM's willingness to vote Grem with no reason I don't know how MM plays but when I buss my scum buddy I find reason. Just saying.
I love how charter ignores my comments calls me scum for no reason then backs off a post later.

[farside22]

Just for you Oman:
Lets lynch the cat!!!




Still like my vote on MM.

[farside22]

Apologies, my headspace has been taken up by another game over the past couple days.

I agree with RR: I don't see how anyone could have Monkey as not their top scum choice. In fact, charter switching his scumlist back to ort smells of bad OMGUS to me. But that's for tomorrow.

Wasn't it Emp that switched his vote and for really no reason?

[farside22]

I still don't get the point of not lynching someone because of their role. Role has no bearing on alignment. If you don't lynch any of the 'good' roles, you're down to about half the people in the game, which is dumb.

MM's reactions to Oman's comment and the fact he is lying about those votes and saying no one has a case when people do have a case is enough for me to believe he is scum.
It has nothing to do with role for me.

[farside22]

I still don't get the point of not lynching someone because of their role. Role has no bearing on alignment. If you don't lynch any of the 'good' roles, you're down to about half the people in the game, which is dumb.

If both are equally scummy it's obviously slightly better to lynch the polictician, but I'd prefer Monkey's lynch even if the roles were the other way around. Seriously, how is Gremwell's bad proposition, that's bascially the only substantial thing he's done, that much scummier than MM's that's also contradicted by his reaction to Grem and is only one of many scummy things he's done?

A large part of my suspicion of Grem was his repeated popping in but talking about stuff no one was interested in. I also think Gremwell more likely to be scum because I'm pretty sure everyone has said MM is scummy, but there are a few people who haven't commented on Grem hardly at all which is extremely odd.

So looking at the vote count:

ortolan (5) - charter, Drunken Piper, Cephrir, MonkeyMan576, Empking

I recall MM's reasons for his vote as weak and felt like a better you then me vote and Emp's vote based on really nothing. What did DP and Cephrir say.
Wait Cephrir changes his mind what happened?

[farside22]

Is that directed at me farside? I don't think I understand you.

You stated that most found MM scummy compared to Grem. I looked at the vote count which at one point was a tie. The strongest person looking at Grem was you. Emp really didnt' say much nor did Cephrir who changed his vote. I'm noting that although the vote count is close I realize you are correct about people's push on MM versus Grem.
I think the votes between the two are weird. As the people voting for Grem really arent' making an effort on pushing him. I'm trying to figure which is the scum based on this idea.

[farside22]

@farside, that's the latest votecount you quoted. I still don't really follow what you're getting at though.

Grumble.
You stated that no one had a case on Grem. To me seeing 5 votes on a person is weird if no one on that BW is not making a case.
I'm commenting on the difference between 2 lynch canidates both at the time with the same number of votes one case stronger then the other.

[farside22]

I said no one had a case on Grem???? Where on earth is that?

Hardly at all was the exact words. But again 5 people voting a tie vote how is it there is hardly anyone talking about Grem. I think the lurkers (less talkative one except you) are on the Grem lynch.

[farside22]

I just think the Grem case is weak in comparision to MM.
Oh and yes MM we see you still dodging the points again and RR rocks for making those points the best.