Mini Theme 2217 | Owner's market blitz | Over

[ssbm_Kyouko]

btw @Mastina I'm looking at my notes page now and it occurs to me that if scum bought 2-shot AD as I believe they did, then that scum has 350 left, so if you want to outbid that scum you have to bid 350 before they do

[ssbm_Kyouko]

I don't have a ton of time right now, but a few important things to point out:
- Watcher is a very strong power, arguably the strongest in the game. But it gets better as the game goes on, and I was in no danger of dying at night. So it is entirely reasonable to put 500 on it and then not use it immediately. (And I was not afraid of being blocked by imaginality, unless he was scum. I would assume that he knows to save it until one scum remains.)

- Mastina, I applause your game sense if you were available to predict both the N2 and N3 kills; I don't have that, and I hadn't even been in the game very long. I didn't expect to be able to predict the N2 kill, which turned out to be accurate, because Distance was my strongest scumread.

-

Ninja doesn't make watcher useless; in fact, knowing who has the ninja makes the ninja useless. If I see someone die and nobody visited them, that's just as much a guilty on VFP as if I saw anyone else visit

.

Oh shit I didn't realize this

[ssbm_Kyouko]

VFP, why did you use the Ninja power last night and why bother announcing it this morning?

VOTE: VFP

Why not?

Why to not use it: you have no powers to hide if you're town, so using it provides no benefit to you
Why to not declare you used it: there is no town reason to use the power, as stated above, so declaring you used it right away looks like trying to preempt any results a tracker/watcher might claim.

[ssbm_Kyouko]

What were you hoping to find when you chose to watch S&M

The NK, obviously. They were one of my top townreads, they're both strong players, and they had money unaccounted for.

Who do you think tries to kill S&M N3? Not necessarily who would perform the action, but who has motive to have the scumteam kill them?

[ssbm_Kyouko]

I think it's possible S_S is truthful here, meaning either Distance or living scum bought Cop. In either scenario it makes sense to try to kill or jail conftown marci to stop her from digging distance and further confirming herself.

I had a thought:
Scum!mastina buying JK, jailing Marci to prevent the dig, and the team no-killing is not out of the realm of possibility here, as it puts the game to evens right before mlimlo, and dodges any tracker/watcher guilties. However, if the daykill had appeared and we were at 7 instead of 8 today, we would be in mlimlo, assuming scum had the money to buy daykill. So I think anyone else that is having that paranoia on mastina should consider that if daykill appeared and scum killed last night, we would be in a bad spot.

I think Marci was probably targeted for the kill for her reads, or because scum was afraid of the dig going through. Unless the team is exactly Marci/mastina, scum!marci can just claim she dug distance and he had the cop. Then all town would believe he cleared her based on his "meta dive" crumb.

If the team is marci/mastina, this claim brings more towncred to mastina in preparation for mlimlo.

We cant lim S_S today, as scum will have to choose between killing him or risking him catching the killer toNight. Roleblock can no longer clear anyone with an unknown 2-shot hitman on the loose, so mechanically it's fine to lim Imaginality today. I think limming in VFP/Imaginality is best today, preferably VFP by dayplay.

Town!Mastina is the only one that can outbid scum for tracker today, assuming scum bought 2-shot.AD

Actually I feel quite strongly that scum bought 2-shot AD and as I wrote it out, only mastina and marci can afford that.

Town!Dogecoin balances
Gamma - 1
Mastina - 350
S&M - 0
Kyouko - 74
S_S - 0
Imaginality - 90
Marcistar - 275
VFP - 0

Scum have 300 more than that and 2-shot AD went for 450. Meaning only town with 150 town!coins can afford to have bought 2-shot AD.

VOTE: mastina

[ssbm_Kyouko]

Wish CB had been here to talk yesterDay as they could have bought 2-shot AD as well

[ssbm_Kyouko]

Also the killing patterns throughout the nights suggest scum is content to let town tear each other apart, so if it is not mastina, Gamma is scum with Marci. More likely it is mastina/Gamma I think and mastina is positioning for mlimlo

[ssbm_Kyouko]

Oh idk, I think no kill is generally good especially in a deepwolf situation, so I'm inclined to see it that way when it seems like we have at least 1 deepwolf rn

[ssbm_Kyouko]

Meh, I'm not sure about mastina tbh. I just realized there are worlds where scum!S&M can buy both ADs, thirdscum can be just about anyone and they can still afford 200 for tracker, then S&M can announce the tracker result and appear to be town that bought 1-shot AD and Tracker. I dont think this happened, but it could have. So I realize voting based on bids doesnt really make sense. Any scum could be mixing and matching claims to make things appear differently to town trying to solve by numbers.

VOTE: Gamma

[ssbm_Kyouko]

As I've said before, reading his iso looks like I'm reading a commentator filling dead air. They've also been opportunistic toward voting me a couple of times this game. To my recollection, they haven't made any of their own pushes and haven't ever been at the center of the game.

Scum are content to let town tear each other apart this game:

S&M vs. Me
Mastina vs. VFP

Scum!VFP could easily kill mastina I think. This game has really been lacking any solving. The more I think about the play and not the bids I think it has to be Gamma

[ssbm_Kyouko]

Actually I feel quite strongly that scum bought 2-shot AD

Why is that?

I felt like they wouldn't want to let town get both ADs and Watcher, that's a lot of investigative power. Maybe they tried to get some of it and failed though, or maybe one of them had to buy cop early on, so they couldn't afford to takeaway much more and still have the funds for daykill

[ssbm_Kyouko]

As I've said before, reading his iso looks like I'm reading a commentator filling dead air. They've also been opportunistic toward voting me a couple of times this game. To my recollection, they haven't made any of their own pushes and haven't ever been at the center of the game.

Scum are content to let town tear each other apart this game:

S&M vs. Me
Mastina vs. VFP

Scum!VFP could easily kill mastina I think. This game has really been lacking any solving. The more I think about the play and not the bids I think it has to be Gamma

I voted imaginality in my first post today so I don’t think this is entirely a fair representation

I dont think you've pushed for Imaginality any more than you've pushed for anyone else in this game. Why are they scum?

[ssbm_Kyouko]

Oh I misread, all of the other midday bids were the same as the final bids and I mistakenly thought JK went for 150

[ssbm_Kyouko]

I just realized there are worlds where scum!S&M can buy both ADs, thirdscum can be just about anyone and they can still afford 200 for tracker, then S&M can announce the tracker result and appear to be town that bought 1-shot AD and Tracker. I dont think this happened, but it could have. So I realize voting based on bids doesnt really make sense. Any scum could be mixing and matching claims to make things appear differently to town trying to solve by numbers.

this is an outright lie


1-shot Auction Detective 300
2-shot Auction Detective 450
Tracker is 200

total is 950

scum start with 800 so its impossible for me to buy both ADs and Tracker

VOTE: Kyouko

Reread the quoted post, and relax lmao

[ssbm_Kyouko]

Oh I see from pronoun usage it is unclear upon reread. By "they" I mean the third scum. I also dont think that is what happened
What I'm saying is that, even with the info we have, it isn't enough to catch any scum by looking at auction prices directly, as they are able to mix and match their purchases if needed to make the numbers line up.

What I'm saying is we need to look at dayplay and see Gamma has been sidelining the whole game. He's not offering anything original, I dont think he's scumhunting so much as he's just following the flow of others' pushes, and it's pretty easy to see it by just reading his ISO.

I also think that Distancr and Marci as kills point towards a player like Gamma and the only other sideliney player like that is S_S. I think S_S makes sense as a partner to Gamma as well - the game just really points that way. Gamma also shares some of your reads (Imaginality / VFP theory), so you might consider that he's hiding behind you

[ssbm_Kyouko]

Unvote nerds

[ssbm_Kyouko]

I have a note I wrote in my book with a theory on it

[ssbm_Kyouko]

I think town!mastina debunks that though but still I think we are in mlimlo so can we not rush this? I think now that auctions are done it's majority lim, not plurality.

[ssbm_Kyouko]

Debunks my theory, not whatever marci posted

[ssbm_Kyouko]

No matter what we elim S_S or Gamma today. I saw Marci suggest she feels better about limming me but there is 50-50 shot at scum in there

[ssbm_Kyouko]

So my notes were really thinking mastina was scum, so her flip kinda trashes what I had to say for the most part.

S_S, why did you choose to watch Mastina?

[ssbm_Kyouko]

Actually, it looks like I’m wrong. Apparently scum has the kill all of the townies - one way or the other. I was telling Pooky in discord, I don’t think we win this, now I actually have hope.

Unfortunately due to the way plurality works, once it is 2:2 unless the 2 townies speedpile onto the scum before the scum speedpile onto a townie, the scum win the plurality by getting to the tie vote first. Then at night, if town oim scum, they still have a kill and its 1:1. Even with plurality in place I think today is still mlimlo unless Imaginality is town and still has his roleblock. Which for now should be kept private info

[ssbm_Kyouko]

do u remember what the claims for bidding on cop were? i could only find 2 claims but im not sure if theres more

I think we bid 365 and didn’t get it. We spent everything on 1 shot AD=300 + 1 shot tracker=200.

Speaking of, Gypyx just informed me that my “inno” on Kyouku was meaningless if he actually visited you.

I think it’s Kitty/Gamma/Kyouku.

Kyouku could push Gamma because prior to SS guilty, I tr him, so he was never in any danger.

Mastina kill confirms Marci town and probably was the intended NK, so us/SS/Marci=all town.

This is interesting to me because I could have sworn I recently asked a similar question regarding a jailkeeper and a voyeur and was told the voyeur would see actions that targeted the jailkept target. I think another player answered though and not a mod so I'll pm the mod about this. Jailkeeper should not make the target ascetic though, just block the kill, so if I had tried to visit her with a kill I think you should have seen it.

Also just because you TRed Gamma doesnt affect how much danger he is in. It only took 3 to lim yesterDay. Pretending that my push on Gamma was not genuine or was not intended to get him eliminated is just incorrect.

I think we bid 365 and didn’t get it. We spent everything on 1 shot AD=300 + 1 shot tracker=200.

tyty

im trying to use all my brain power to figure out numbers and whats more likely do you think distance couldve won 2shot ad?

If Distance won 2-shot AD it looks pretty likely that Cupcake won doc, and possibly flea won cop.

On a different note, the 301 bid for hitman. I think there are two possible scenarios:

1. Gamma is scum and bid that much, and other scum has 300 or less remaining (otherwise I think they'd bid higher) and Gamma either didn't notice that people would notice the 499+301=800 or thought a "scum are framing me" excuse would work
2. Gamma is town and scum bid 301 to likely win it while framing Gamma

If gamma is town and mastina wasn't lying about the range she won JK for to try to deceive scum, then 301 definitely outbids town.

So my notes were really thinking mastina was scum, so her flip kinda trashes what I had to say for the most part.

S_S, why did you choose to watch Mastina?

She claimed a jk on Marci and there was no kill yesterday.

Scum obviously wants to kill Marci and can’t if Mastina continues to jk her.

JK was one shot... it's possible Marci performed the kill because most people seemed to either TR her independently or accept that Distance crumbed an inno on her. That would also result in no kill.

[ssbm_Kyouko]

im thinking deeply of this tho, why wouldn't distance have just straight up claim the inno on me then..? cop only 1 shot, he has no reason to hide his action from us.

Well, it's possible that he didn't want scum to know he'd spent most of his money.

But yeah I'm not at all convinced that he really did have the cop;

it was just the first thing that came to mind when I read how confident he was in you being town

. It's a possibility, but not the only one.

This is a good reason for S_S/Marci to kill Distance

S_S, why did you choose to watch Mastina?

She was clearly town

and (essentially) confirmed to have the tracker.

Why was she clearly town? I'm town and from looking at the VFP flip and the auction claims it seemed clear to me she was scum. I feel it would be difficult to have the same info as me on the numbers and still consider mastina town. It is odd that you 1) did not use your watcher ability when there was a seemingly obvious kill (sheeping mastina on this as I didnt think it was obvious at the time, but I now know there was no malicious intent), 2) failed to watch the obvious target 2 Nights ago, and 3) watched a less obvious target who looked like scum after the VFP flip last Night, AND happened to see Gamma visiting. I find it odd to think that Gamma would perform the kill as his potential partners, if you are town, are all more TRed than him and would be less likely to be tracked or roleblocked.

S_S, why did you choose to watch Mastina?

She was clearly town and (essentially) confirmed to have the tracker.

You mean jk, we had the tracker.

You had the 1-shot tracker but mastina won the 2-shot yesterday unless someone else bid 200 before she did. She claimed to be the one bidding 200 at midday, and it was won for 200.

I just hate the assumptions being made

I do agree with this sentiment-- if you're trying to base logic on assumptions, you'd better understand that the logic is only as valid as the assumptions are.

That said, we should be taking some things on probability.

All things considered, marci looks pretty likely to be town, so it's probably better to just accept the loss in the rare case where she isn't than to continue to worry about her.

This is also something that S_S says if partnered with Marci. Imo from a town pov it only made sense to see mastina as scum after seeing the flip and the bids yesterDay. All signs pointed to marcistar being shot last night. Yet, not only was she not shot, S_S did not watch her. Likely because he is partnered with her.

[ssbm_Kyouko]

You bid 499 on GF correct?

So how does rb affect SS’ result?

yes

I'm talking about rb because I'm hoping they can block the scum NK tonight

If you flip town, scum use their hitman power.
What's your view on who won the hitman power if not you?

not sure
who would have wanted mastina dead? that's probably the best lead

Lmao, only answer is Marci after the mastina flip. Wait a minute.

[ssbm_Kyouko]

Marci is confscum fmpov unless S_S is bussing Gamma

[ssbm_Kyouko]

Nobody else can afford hitman after seeing mastina flip

[ssbm_Kyouko]

So fucked off that I didnt bid on a neighborizer, I could have cleared myself in everyone else's pov as well

[ssbm_Kyouko]

The last 2 scum are 100% amongst S_S, Gamma, and Marci.

[ssbm_Kyouko]

This is good because I was starting to doubt s&m again

[ssbm_Kyouko]

Marci is confscum fmpov unless S_S is bussing Gamma

Nobody else can afford hitman after seeing mastina flip

Couldn't Gamma have it?

Oh you're right yeah... I think? Yeah, gamma or Marci could have it. Hmm thought I had something

[ssbm_Kyouko]

So if Gamma is scum his partner can still be anyone, numerically speaking

[ssbm_Kyouko]

feels like kyouko just slipped that I'm town

No, I was just really in the mindset that 301 was a bid made by scum!marci to frame you in a marci/mastina team and wasn't looking at my notes on the auction amounts when I posted that cuz I was on the toilet.

[ssbm_Kyouko]

Interesting point to note is Gamma/Marci could have bought both Hitman and the 2-shot AD for 450. If that were the case, Marci would have only had 75 left after AD and would not have been able to outbid on Tracker. By killing mastina and buying hitman, it allows scum to scoop up hitman to dodge the roleblock, and kill the tracker to prevent investigations.

In this situation, Gamma performs the kill using Hitman so that if Imaginality blocks him, it appears to Imaginality that he has an inno on Gamma. Imaginality may block Gamma in this situation because Ima was voting Gamma at EoD. Gamma can even claim to be being framed by Marci, and on the red flip, it may appear that marci is scum that tried to frame Gamma by paying 301 for the hitman. There's a lot of towncred to be had in bussing D1, not moving off of the wagon onto later confirmed to be town, and then getting "framed" by flipped scum!Marci in mlimlo.

I think in this case that Imaginality would be NKed toNight and I would be the mlim target in the following round of mlimlo.

[ssbm_Kyouko]

Consider this also though: Tracker was not obscured yesterDay at the end because scum wanted to know who won it. This points to town!Marci because the only town!player that could outbid Mastina was Marci. By not obscuring, they could see clearly who won Tracker.

If we consider that S_S is town here then maybe scum didn't believe S_S holstered the first Night and thought he was out of shots. Otherwise they should have obscured tracker and 50-50ed between Mastina/Marci so that S_S would have a lower chance of Watching the correct target. Was that post by S&M about the jailkeeper continuing to protect Marci a slip? did scumteam of S&M/Gamma think Mastina would be able to jail again so they bought hitman and killed Mastina with it?

[ssbm_Kyouko]

i think Gamma and S&M just double bussed D1. VOTE: Gamma

[ssbm_Kyouko]

I think also they tried to get me limmed a couple of times since I was MO and they just couldn't pull it off. Nobody else bit I think.

[ssbm_Kyouko]

1-shot cop [redacted] - Distance or Flea, likely Distance. Scum thought Flea would cop S&M so aimed there.
2-shot Doctor - 250 - Flea?
1-shot Roleblocker - 410 - Imaginality
1-shot Hitman - 426 - Kyouko

1-shot AD - 300 - S&M
2-shot AD - 450 - CB?
2-shot Gravedigger - 225 - Marcistar
2-shot Watcher - 500 - S_S

1-Shot Godfather - 499 - Gamma
1-Shot Tracker - 200 - S&M
2-shot Ninja - 500 - VFP
1-Shot JK - [redacted] (201-299 by claim, likely 300 based on next day's bids) - Mastina

2-Shot Tracker - 200 - Mastina
1-Shot Neighborizer - 90 - Imaginality/Gamma/S_S (Can be Gamma or S_S if Imaginality is the one with Hitman, but this is unnecessary because Hitman is only needed to avoid town!Imaginality's roleblock, and could otherwise have outbid on tracker and redacted Hitman)
2-shot Neighborizer - 0
2-shot Hitman - Gamma/Marci/S_S (Only Marci if she is scum with S_S. I don't think there is a world where Marci and S_S team chooses for Marci to buy both Watcher and Gravedigger on the same day as both ADs and let town get both ADs. She was widely TRed but it's a risky play. If they did take this risk though, S_S can still have Hitman, but unlikely that scum!S_S fakes a guilty on town!Gamma while holding Hitman when town!Imaginality is still around)

Hitman was only needed because Imaginality still has roleblocker. Aside from that, I TR him by play and am clearing him, leaving the last 4: Gamma, S_S, Marci, and S&M

There is assuredly scum in Gamma, S_S. Gamma's plausible partner is S&M and S_S's plausible partner is Marci.

Possible Teams
{Gamma, S_S} - If this is the case then S_S and Gamma are probably swapped in what they purchased and S_S is now bussing while holding Hitman so that he can get a false inno if he is roleblocked toNight. This I don't see as very likely. No need to fake a guilty on your partner when you can fake it on some other town.
{Gamma, S&M} - This one I think is the most likely. I've scumread both of them at various points throughout the game. I was convinced to change my mind on S&M eventually, and if Gamma bought Hitman he can still be with anyone else, but I think S&M was just bullshitting a case on me D2 and never satisfactorily explained themselves. I had to let it go because nobody would listen and a lot of people were saying it was TvT, but I'm not entirely convinced now. I feel like whenever they would vote me, Gamma would follow suit, and possibly vice versa. Maybe I'm remembering wrong on the vice versa though. They also both push the {VFP, Imaginality, Kyouko} POE. S&M has Gamma as a high TR for being on the D1 wagon I think, but if you read Gamma's ISO there's no other reason to have him that high and there is never paranoia from S&M about him, despite it being there about Imaginality who was also on the D1 wagon.
{S_S, Marci} - Marci I TR by play mostly, occasionally having suspicions. However convenient it would be for S_S to claim dead cop!Distance has an Inno on his partner, I do not think it is necessary given how widely TRed Marci has been all game. I think I'm just seeing associations where there are none and Marci is conftown by cop inno which just leaves Gamma as the Hitman, unless S_S is bussing him and their claims are actually swapped. This is convoluted though and only makes sense if they have future information on the rolesand claims that are coming, so I don't think this is the case.

[ssbm_Kyouko]

Gypyx replied to me. I can't quote him but you can all send him the same question I did to confirm if you like.

The question is along the lines of:

what happens in this situation?
X tracks Y
Y kills Z
W jails Z
Does X receive 'no result' or 'Y visits Z' (I actually asked him if 'Y didn't go anywhere' because I didn't go anywhere all game and that is what was on my mind)

And Gypyx told me X would see Y visiting Z. But S&M said I didn't go anywhere/

S&M lied about their soft Inno (not hard because there are still 2 scum alive) on me being an "inno" based on Marci being jailed by Mastina the night S&M saw me go nowhere.

[ssbm_Kyouko]

Quick End

I think this is solved

[ssbm_Kyouko]

I can see Gamma + ssbm if Gamma flips scum, but can also see SS + ssbm

this was why I voted ssbm initially
I'd rather vote out assured scum first and then potentially rb can solve the rest of the game

Town doesn't do this in mlimlo. If you're town you know S_S is lying scum and you vote for him. You theorize all you want about who could be his partner as you're likely the NK, or if S_S is bussing you, you want to appear as though you expect to he NKed. But town you doesn't vote anywhere but S_S

[ssbm_Kyouko]

Btw, regarding checking S&M: they can still have hitman if Gamma bought the 1-shot AD and relayed his result to S&M in the PT. Role blocking S&M is not a clear. The only player that cant have hitman now is S_S unless he and Gamma swapped claims. Nobody can be cleared because anyone could have bought hitman if scum, and even if it is unlikely that S_S or S&M swapped claims, it could have happened.

Mechanically we can only know at least one of S_S and Gamma are scum

[ssbm_Kyouko]

I have the 1-shot hitman from d1 still. By your own admission you tracked me and saw me go nowhere when Marci has jailed. If I were scum and not on Marci's team I would have used my strongman that night to shoot through jailkeeper.

But yes, I have only spent 426 so scum!me has the money to have bought the 2-shot hitman as well.

[ssbm_Kyouko]

Night 5 has ended...

imaginality has died, he was

Vanilla Townie

Day 6 starts now

Damn this was to be expected I guess

[ssbm_Kyouko]

I have the 1-shot hitman from d1 still. By your own admission you tracked me and saw me go nowhere when Marci has jailed. If I were scum and not on Marci's team I would have used my strongman that night to shoot through jailkeeper.

But yes, I have only spent 426 so scum!me has the money to have bought the 2-shot hitman as well.

Yes but I asked the mod, if that was actually valid if you visited Marci and he said it wasn’t. Iow, my “inno” is null and void if you visited Marci. I figured when I saw this post, you were planning to NK Imaginality and frame us.

VOTE: Kyouku

And don’t insult our intelligence here. You didn’t use the hitman because you obviously didn’t think you needed it. You’re not clear, the mod confirmed that and SS knows 100% this is my obvtown meta here as did Mastina who had me as her #1 tr.

You should ask the mod again in more clear terms if you still think your track on me doesnt clear me of having visited Marci

[ssbm_Kyouko]

I've been doing a lot of rereading though and I actually think Marci could be the last scum here. I have a lot of notes to post. What I noticed on a reread about S&M/Gamma is S&M always acts first. So I think the strategy from Gamma was to hide behind town!S&M as a sheep and earn their TR by just following their votes and echoing.

[ssbm_Kyouko]

You should ask the mod again in more clear terms if you still think your track on me doesnt clear me of having visited Marci

It doesn't matter, I don't think. If Gamma tried to kill Marci that night, S&M wouldn't have seen ssbm go anywhere, so it's not a hard inno.

I understand that, but what they said originally indicates that they asked the mod about the situation and Gypyx told them they would have received a different result if the JK did not happen. I asked the mod the same question and was told they would have received the result they originally claimed. Shocker, because I didn't visit Marci.

It's more about making sure they understand, so they no longer have an excuse to talk about it as a point against me. Because, like on D2, their current push on me feels disingenuous, so if I can force town!them to understand that the reason they have is incorrect, they should back down. Scum would also back down I think because objectively their reasoning is disproven, but if they continue to ignore what I am saying about their result on me, it makes me think they are scum again, as this is reminiscent of the beginnings of the fight we had on D2. To summarize that, we continuously wallposted each other and I had to repeat the same question something like 3-4 times before they would answer it, and when they did answer me, it wasn't really an answer you could say answered my question entirely. More like they intentionally avoided parts of my question because again, at that time, I was wording it in a specific way so that scum!them would have no choice but to admit they were disingenuous about the original reason they were pushing me.

[ssbm_Kyouko]

Also, sorry to do this, but I thought the day would start much sooner. I'm going V/LA staring about 9 hours from this post and lasting about 4 days. So, either I have to figure out what to do with my vote before then, or we have to ask the mod for an extension.

Honestly, the best thing might just be to not vote, and request that ssbm and marci crossvote and let S&M decide. I think S&M has at least as good a chance of getting it right as I do, and probably a better one.

You would let S&M decide here?

[ssbm_Kyouko]

oh wait lmao your result yesterday was on Gamma visiting mastina, not Marci, thought you scumslipped

[ssbm_Kyouko]

@Marci

what is your full bidding history?

[ssbm_Kyouko]

That’s my bid, and here’s the thing with it.

I was expecting Kitty to not have actually been able to snag the cop based on thread presence, which would explain why that result was obscured.

As such I was thinking scum probably wanted the GF, and wanted to scalp them for it. I left myself one Doge in order to take a power that seemed like it shouldn’t get left behind but was going to. Another point to what I’m doing is that I’m showing I have most of my money intact with the bid.
In addition I think it was smarter for me to bid on a pro-scum role given my largely townread status. Bidding on a PR that’s useful for town adds the risk of getting NKed and wasting that role. Instead I played to hold something scum might want back.

Does this read as TMI or WIFOM? I'm thinking TMI.

[ssbm_Kyouko]

Hm. It's probably TMI, especially since Gamma took the godfather, which doesn't make any sense for him to do if he knows the cop is buried.

I think the point is to do what I did on D1 and claim the bid so that scum has no reason to shoot him if he is town. It sets him up to explain why he isn't dead yet.

At the time he placed that bid though, there were still a lot of town players that could outbid him for Dayvig. If I were his partner, neither of us would have the money to buy dayvig, and it would be likely to appear d4 if we wanted that. The same is true of you (S_S). Unless Gamma and S&M swapped their bids on tracker, it is also true of them. It would be... bold, to do that and immediately claim a tracker result without a watcher claim in the open, as that scumteam would know town bought the watcher, and it is risky to claim a result on the MO if town has the watcher.

All this points to Marci who does have the money to outbid 500 (575) if scum. Also worth noting is that 575 is enough to pay 500 for dayvig and outbid me by exactly 1 on a second role, which, given Gamma's reaction to my 426 bid, and his 499 +301 bids (aimed at outbidding anyone that spent 200+), I think it is likely that Gamma saw my strategy, adopted it for the scumteam, and advised Marci to bid that way. I would not be surprised if he also bid 225 on something else the same day as Gravedigger, but didnt win it

[ssbm_Kyouko]

Amongst the dead in the reread I dont see a lot of

confidence

in Marci town either. A lot of players have her as town, but it seems like everyone "sort of" thinks she's town, or does not think she is scum, and is trusting in the group consensus. I thinks he fits more convincingly with Gamma than S&M, but S&M was so adamant about Gamma being town this game and I don't see any good reasoning posted.

In fact it looks like there is a lot of gloating going on between them, and S&M even at one point says "if Gamma was scum I'd know, because I just recently partnered with him."

What game were you partnered with Gamma in @S&M? I'd like to skim it

[ssbm_Kyouko]

I

think she

fits more convincingly with Gamma than S&M

EBWOP

[ssbm_Kyouko]

I've been doing a lot of rereading though and I actually think Marci could be the last scum here.

if i was scum i wouldn't have killed imaginality there.

@Marci

what is your full bidding history?

didnt do much bidding, just my 225 gravedigger and then i attempted for 2 shot hitman with 275

i think its just ssbm_kyouko here i dont think its smoke, and im pretty sure something_smart got rbed last night
VOTE: ssbm_kyouko

It is demonstrable that everyone had reason to kill Imaginality last night.

Smoke and I are not targets because we're butting heads like mastina and VFP were. S_S is not a target for anyone but you because they can be seen as bussing at end of day yesterday. The only upside for you is his townflip makes his assessment of Distance's cop crumb more convincing, which reinforces that Kitty did not get Cop.

After rereading the game I am confident they were not bussing and the watcher is real though. That only leaves Imaginality, who claimed to have roleblocker and to be trying to save it for when 1 scum was left, so anyone would want to kill him.

Also, your bidding history is just scummy. No bids on cop or doctor, no attempt to take any role away from scum D1 like Imaginality and I did.

D2, you bid modestly on GD and didnt attempt for any of the strong town roles with the rest of your stack, when at midday, you could have afforded some of them.

D3 you make no takeaway bids, and no attempts to buy a stronger town PR like Tracker or JK.

D4 now you claim to be going for a takeaway bid, when the town power on the table is even stronger than on previous days.

Obviously you were hoarding money to buy dayvig. Not a good look for you to vote me here either when I've been your townbeard the whole game.

Tell me this: why does Gamma try to kill you on N3 if I am his partner? S&M saw me go nowhere. I have Hitman, so I would have used it to blast through JK either on me or my target. No sense in using it early on when it is unlikely for doctor to guess the scum target.

Also if I were scum, then hitman showed up the last day by design. That would line up with me using hitman the night prior. I would need to refill my shots. And yet, I didnt use hitman because there was no kill, because you're scum, and you tried to kill someone, probably Imaginality, on N3, because he had roleblocker to stop a kill. That would have pointed Gamma and S&Ms POE at me and VFP as well, because they were pushing 2 scum in {VFP, Imaginality, Kyouko} Mastina was also pushing VFP hard with Imaginality as a possible partner. This could have shifted mastina to pushing VFP and I as partners, which is what her top townread S&M would also have been pushing.

[ssbm_Kyouko]

S&M what is your full bidding history as well?

[ssbm_Kyouko]

D1 I bid 426 on hitman after midday update
D2 I bid 22 on 1-shot AD and 52 on Gravedigger after midday
D3 I did not bid because the mid days were all over 74 iirc
D4 I forgot to bid after mid day update, but I was trying to decide if I should go for 1 or 2 shot neighborizer because midday on the others were too high for me to win. I wanted to get one to prove I couldn't have bought hitman for 301, like Imaginality was able to prove by buying one for 90

[ssbm_Kyouko]

Thought it was on the midday, was it not?

[ssbm_Kyouko]

I was posting from the toilet and didnt wanna iso gypyx for the millionth time. I had just checked my pt to see where I did my 52-22 split, as i thought i did it the other way around, with 52 on GD and 22 on AD

[ssbm_Kyouko]

It wasn't about proving I didnt have 301, but about showing I'd spent 500. Also I spent a good amount of time in the Night phase obsessing over the numbers. These are my notes from that night

Marci dies tonight. If S_S dies, Marci/Mastina is team. Mastina announced Tracker 200. Scum would need to outbid this. No matter who is scum, they can afford to outbid mastina. Instead, they bought the useless hitman at 301 to shade gamma

^turns out this was wrong, but I have all the bids written out and a big circle around the 301 on hitman. That's probably why I thought that. That, and I remember seeing the 90 on Neighborizer and thinking I should have put my bid on Neighborizer as well.

[ssbm_Kyouko]

It is demonstrable that everyone had reason to kill Imaginality last night.

Smoke and I are not targets because we're butting heads like mastina and VFP were. S_S is not a target for anyone but you because they can be seen as bussing at end of day yesterday. The only upside for you is his townflip makes his assessment of Distance's cop crumb more convincing, which reinforces that Kitty did not get Cop.

imaginality fairly trusted me and i could prob convince him enough to vote where i wanted.

Also, your bidding history is just scummy. No bids on cop or doctor, no attempt to take any role away from scum D1 like Imaginality and I did.

sure, view it as scummy i dont mind too much.
i wasn't gonna take away roles like cop, doctor, etc when i know i don't know how to use them effectively. i figured staying back and letting someone who does know take it would be the better move for town.
"no attempt to take any role away from scum d1" i figured other people were already gonna be doing that.

Obviously you were hoarding money to buy dayvig. Not a good look for you to vote me here either when I've been your townbeard the whole game.

yeah, like thats totally out of question for town to be doing as well!
townbeard..? idk what the term means. but im super sure smokes town, and im super sure imaginality roleblocked something_smart, and im kinda sure that something_smart wouldn't have had any hitman powers. that only leaves you in my eyes.

Also if I were scum, then hitman showed up the last day by design. That would line up with me using hitman the night prior. I would need to refill my shots. And yet, I didnt use hitman because there was no kill,

huh im confused, this doesnt really make sense with how im reading it
can u reexplain this? im kinda dumb

you tried to kill someone, probably Imaginality, on N3, because he had roleblocker to stop a kill. That would have pointed Gamma and S&Ms POE at me and VFP as well, because they were pushing 2 scum in {VFP, Imaginality, Kyouko} Mastina was also pushing VFP hard with Imaginality as a possible partner. This could have shifted mastina to pushing VFP and I as partners, which is what her top townread S&M would also have been pushing.

hmm..? i dont think i think things through as scum but okay!
"you tried to kill someone, probably Imaginality, on N3" -> why would i do this..? if i wanted him gone i could've easily just sat back and watched the flames as the wagon on him grew, but i was trying to prevent his elim. letting his wagon go through would've done much of the same effect. getting rid of the town rber, limiting all of those peoples poes, so why would i have tried so hard to prevent his elim..?

1. I don't think so. Imaginality was not a townie who was swayed by others and you have not convinced anyone in this game to do anything. You have sat on the fence and/or sheeped all game. Provide evidence that you could have convinced Imaginality to do something. Case me.

2. Not going for cop/doc makes sense and is in line with what you said D1, but that could have been a prophylactic excuse. What is inconsistent is what you ignored though. You didnt try to take any scum powers away on D3. This is inconsistent with how you played D4.

3. Townbeard means the town players that scum blend in with/hide behind. A beard like in a disguise.

4. I am MO. If I were scum, then the fact that Hitman appeared the morning of D4 means that I was expecting it to appear because I enhanced it. That means that on N3 I would have used my hitman ability from D1 to shoot through the JK which was won by town. If I were scum, I would know my team did not win JK via the PT. So I would use hitman to kill you and he JK would not have stopped you, then I would have bought hitman the next day, to "refill my shots"

5. I dont recall seeing this on reread, but I didnt get through the whole game. I don't remember you efforting anything this game so I'm gonna go ISO you around that time.

[ssbm_Kyouko]

Also I wanted to wait for S&M's auction history for this, but as you're leaving soon to V/LA I have to post it early. S&M admitted they bid 365 on Cop in 1060. An oddly specific number, and I cant deduce the reasoning from the numbers alone. However, the mid-day bid on the 2-shot AD was also 365, and by the time 1060 was posted, the 2-shot AD bid was posted already. So, did S&M happen to bid the same amount on Cop on D1 that someone else bid on 2-shot AD D2? It is strange that the same specific number appeared in two places from 2 different people, when the first number was not published.

[ssbm_Kyouko]

Making me wonder, is 365 the magic number that scum agreed to bid on things in order to make town pay a decent amount? Was the midday bid on D2 also from them, because if it was, they are confscum

[ssbm_Kyouko]

Seems pretty unlikely that they would bid the same weird amount on two things and only claim one of them.

Yes, but they didnt claim the amount they bid on cop until much later than the mid-day D2 was posted. They originally claim they bid on, and did not receive cop in 525. The point is, the midday bid on 2-shot AD was exactly 365. Prior to that bid, there had been no publication of that number. That's why I wanted to wait for their full bidding history, to grill them on how they decided how much to bid on cop, and to see where else they claim to have bid.

Town!S&M cant afford Tracker if they won 2-shot, but scum!S&M could have bid on 2-shot AD before midday to drive the price, then bid on the 1-shot AD separately. Or Gamma could have driven the 2-shot price up, so that neither of them would be guilty to the 2-shot AD if scum didnt win it. By bidding only 300 on 1-shot AD, S&M still has 500 to slam onto dayvig if it appears.

[ssbm_Kyouko]

I won the 1x jailkeeper, and I jailkept marcistar last night.

i think we should trust mastina unless theres a cc or anything. i tried digging and it failed, dont see anything else to explain this.

I didn't target anyone.
So either the jailkeeper jailkept scum, or jailkept scum's target, or the doctor protected town, or the scum no-killed.

i don't think its very likely scum no killed, they 100% need to get the number of very trusted townies down to get a shot at winning (and before more people can be thought of in a "near confirmed" way), not killing at this state would be detrimental for them.

mastina

, who do u think vfps partner would be?

gamma emerald, something_smart, vfp <- scums within these, maybe possibly ssbm_kyouko could be, but that seems unlikely to me.

smoke

, who do u think?

imaginality

, who do u think?
(anyone else is welcome to answer as well)

I still think something_smart would be the more likely to flip scum, but im fine with vfp as well.

Was looking for where Marci says she defends Imaginality instead of letting him die and found this little rule of 3 gem in green.

[ssbm_Kyouko]

And Marci, who did you try to dig with the 2nd shot (the blocked one) and why did you target them?

[ssbm_Kyouko]

So I'm E1 because scum do what they do every game and call me town.

No you're L-1 because this game is incredibly winnable via POE thanks to how D1 played out, and the N1 nightkill can be used to deduce even further the most likely scum to make the kill there in the remaining players, and you're the best fit for that.

VOTE: Mastina because she talked a lot about her vote but a lot of the logic seemed to contain some "in this scenario I think it's most likely VFP" statements where the reason for thinking it's most likely VFP wasn't really laid out.

What's there to lay out when it's player psychology analysis?

I am somewhat familiar with the way most of the players operate in this game when they are scum. What they are likely to do as scum, how they operate as scum, thoughts that are likely to occur to them as scum and thoughts that are unlikely to occur to them as scum.

If Flea was killed because cyrus is scum and cyrus's scumbuddy didn't tell them to not do this, the most likely player to fit that is VFP because VFP is the type of scum player that would analyze cyrus's choice and not see the downside, supporting it, more or less. He would look at it, and either be indifferent to it or more likely "sounds like a good idea" or something to that effect. Where he would see the upsides to the kill but not consider the downsides involved.

If Flea was not killed because cyrus is scum, the possibilities are Flea was killed to PR hunt or Flea was killed for general threat level.

If Flea was killed to PR hunt, the two players most likely to engage in PR hunting are Cupcake Butterfly and VFP. They are the players most likely to try and delve into PR speculation, of where the bids were, and try to kill based off of that. VFP has engaged in this type of behavior before so he tops the charts in this regard.

If Flea was killed for general townness factor between Flea being obvtown and being Flea...VFP is one of the players with the most familiarity with Flea, and the type of player to be most afraid of Flea, and the type of player most likely to approve of a kill on Flea for that reason.

But all of this relies on psychological profiling of the player in question. How do you explain a psychological profile? How do you give details of it? You can't exactly point to past scumgames for a one for one comparison because it's not a tell, there's enough variance in games that it's not going to be a one for one comparison. You can look at the general psychology and basic patterns, but that's about it, and it's those patterns that make me think VFP is the most likely to approve of a Flea kill here.

I can maybe explain the psychology behind the players who wouldn't make the Flea kill as to why they're unlikely to make it. But the unlikely-to-nightkill psychological profiles are pretty damn similar in how fact-lacking they are, so I genuinely don't know how to give more. You're asking me to create extra logic in a place where there's no extra logic to be had.

@Mastina do you tr kyuku? Having her top srs 2 slots that actually voted scum really weirds me out.

Thinking my tr on Misty was probably right. Scum!SS tends to be somewhat frozen.

You're probably giving my scumgame too little credit, I think. That doesn't seem like a post I'd have trouble making as scum.

Thinking my tr on Misty was probably right. Scum!SS tends to be somewhat frozen.

You're probably giving my scumgame too little credit, I think. That doesn't seem like a post I'd have trouble making as scum.

Oh okay, you’ve improved then in that case. Misty was my #1 tr until she replaced out though but I’ll wait and see then.

But for now, you’re definitely not pinging me.

This was an interaction I noted last night in favor of scum!S&M: looks like buddying to me

[ssbm_Kyouko]

and by that I mean during Night phase reread - got a slow time at work and am going through posting what I took notes on so the info's out there. Pretty confident it's one of Marci/S&M but it's hard to say which. They both make sense as Gamma partners so if anyone has noticed anything that makes them not a Gamma partner please show it

[ssbm_Kyouko]

UNVOTE:

for rn since im gonna be a bit busy today

^At this point she is unvoting from VFP who was at 5 votes, which would be L-1 in majority elim.

wait hehe guys im back! i thought my grad was gonna take longer

need to reread marci but retyping all this means it's 2am now, so sleep first, iso after. Pedit: would marci have unvoted if there was a competing wagon? If VFP gets elimmed and flips town that unvote will look convenient in retrospect.

im fine with being limmed if it look convenient.

in 672 Imaginality comments on the unvote. He comments again on it in a later post I'll be quoting later, but what I find scummy in this post is the last "fine with being limmed if it look convenient." This is a bit too cavalier of an attitude for town to have, and reads like scum "playing it cool" to me.

@Gamma Emerald
@Smoke and Mirrors
@cyrus62
@marcistar
@ssbm_Kyouko

Unless I've missed a post, none of you are currently voting.
Someone is going to get eliminated in less than a day (barring an extension or explicit no-elim votes getting plurality)

Currently there are by my count 3 votes on VFP, 2 on Something_Smart, and 1 on mastina.

1. Who do you want to see eliminated out of those three?
2. Vote for that person before end of day

If your answer to 1 is "someone else", vote for that person.
If your answer to 1 is "don't elim anyone today", vote for No Execute.

If you don't vote for someone else (or no execute) I shall assume tomorrow you're happy with VFP being eliminated.

my head rlly hurts rn and im tired,
i want something_smart to have a tiny bit more time to have a chance to contribute before we elim them.
so then between vfp and mastina, i would prefer vfp since i kinda think mastinas town
im sure theres someone better, but im not sure if ill have a good enough conclusion before phase end. ^.^ (how long is it until phase end?)

Considering Marci was a leading voter on VFP earlier in the day and has not made any indication of progression on VFP, I find it odd that now their reasoning amongst these 3 users is "well S_S just replaced in, and mastina is town, so let's do VFP I guess(?)" There is no indication that there ever was a scumread on VFP. There should be, considering she was pushing VFP earlier in the day. There's not, because scum!Marci is playing the game by coasting behind aggressive town in (Kyouko vs S&M) and (mastina vs VFP)

I was fine with no execute until Kyuku decided to shitpush me. I will yeet that slot out of the stratosphere gladly.

hmm, i wouldn't mind a kyoko elim too much, they aren't confirmed town in any way, their choices as market owner could've easily been made as a like.. if they put roles better for scum, that wouldve been soo sus, so they couldve done these roles to avoid the sus..
but it does worry me because before todays phase i thought they were pretty okay
their push on u is kinda bad since u lead the thing on kitty so hard, u wouldnt stop until u got answers it seemed like... i dont think scum wouldve done that..?

idk how kyouko plays.. maybe they could be scum here, or maybe they could be like idk how to word it nicely, but they could be town who thinks they caught something but they actually havent? i wouldnt be surprised with either..

hmm, but i think i think i think that kyoukos d1 weighs heavier on the scale for me.. so imma pray theyre town

Hello, to anyone here capable of rational thought. It’s pretty damned obvious that Flea was killed in order for me to get pushed here. It’s not rocket science.

im not capable of rational thought sis sorry
-
i og thought that flea was killed

because kyouko let it be known what money theyve spent

, and flea was otherwise the other pretty widely townread..
it could be possible that its to get you elimed, but i dont think that wouldve been the reason..? it looks kinda like nobodies gonna wanna follow ssbm_kyouko on the push for you, so i don't think its something scums trying to set up.. i think if they wanted to set up something, it would be something more easy for people to follow after? does scum usually push on u o-o

Bold green could be TMI. Makes sense because Gamma tried to do the same thing with Godfather, except he was actually scum. If scumteam chose not to kill me because of how much money I spent, it would make sense for them to try to use it as a defense by buying Hitman for 499 later. They were probably just trying to hit cop. But Marci didn't say that. Marci said it was because of the money I spent.

Aside from the possible TMI though, scum!Marci is posturing to mislim me later in this post, further supporting the theory that the flames of the 2 TvTs in S&M/Kyouko and Mastina/VFP are being fanned quietly from the sidelines by scum.

Could you go into your mastina townread reasoning?

im not sure how they usually play, but i think they're just straightup demotivated town trying their best this game. though they kinda mention how theyre not into the game alot (which could be seen as like trying to gain pity or something, not sure if thats the right word) i think theyre genuine in it.

Do you think S_S has contributed enough to be town for toDay, or do you have a different opinion on them?

i dont think they've contributed much for town, i just feel bad if they get elimmed right after subbing in..
819 835 is something i kinda expected them to say eventually, i just feel like they should be given a bit more time to get into things.

Now there's been a little bit longer to figure things out, do you have any new scumreads outside of the 3 Imaginality presented?

brain empty rn, would have to reread to come up with something confidently
tho like, the attacks on cyrus... like it specifically doesnt feel weird, but something around that chunk of time feels a bit weird..

The first two replies in 916 read like scum!Marci's excuses to ignore these slots. The third reply, that they still have no scumreads, demonstrates that they were not trying to solve the game, as earlier, when Imaginality made 703, Marci replied that they'd have to think more to figure out who is scum. So they've now made excuses, and later, when I follow up, they have still not formulated anything concrete or of their own.

Why did you expect 819, 835 out of S_S? Did you scumread misty before the replace?

i didnt really have a read on them before the replace that i voiced, og in one of my first few posts i think i mentioned them, but i didnt rlly scumread them that hard as the game went on.
what i expected = a replace in being sused to act like that.. an experience ive seen before is when i was playing a game once off site, someone subbed out, and then my friend subbed in for them and they were limmed before they could do much.. their defense was always "i cant explain what [previous player] did, can u please try to read me?" stuff like that, so i was expecting a similar reaction here.

By the attacks on cyrus, do you mean the wagon that just formed? Is there any person in particular saying weird things, or any pair of posters? There are 4 of us on him I think - if it was weird, who made it that way and why?

maybe it could be i just don't like the speed or that im not confident in what he'll flip,

or maybe its that nobody is rlly trying to fight smoke on it..

im not sure exactly..
maybe its just how weird something_smart and cupcake butterfly feel around that point, they both followed smoke, but didnt seem so sure in it.

I press for answers again in 918, but again there is nothing specific. Marci is just being vague, can't explain any of her reads. She also says about misty/S_S she didn't really have a read on them that she voiced. Implying she had some kind of read that was not voiced. "I didn't really scumread them that hard as the game went on" - implying she scumread them a little, or townread them? This is inconsistent with the reasoning she provides in response to 723 above. There she just says S_S should be given time. The bolded is also subtle shade, yet the next day, after a Cyrus townflip, there is no followup from Marci

votecount 2.5

Gamma Emerald (0)
mastina (1) - Imaginality
Smoke and Mirrors (1) Cyrus62
Cupcake Butterfly (0)
ssbm_Kyouko (0)
Something_Smart (1) - VFP
cyrus62 (5) - Smoke And Mirrors - Something_Smart - Cupcake Butterfly - Gamma Emerald - ssbm_Kyouko
imaginality (0)
marcistar (0)
Distance (0)
VFP (2) - Mastina - Distance

not voting (0)

day 2 ends in (expired on 2021-06-26 10:38:57)

auction

the auctioned abilities are :

1-shot Aution Detective - the top bet at the mid point is 5

2-shot Auction Detective - the top bet at the mid point is 365

2-shot Gravedigger - the top bet at the mid point is 25

2-shot Watcher - the top bet at the mid point is 100

sorry for the delay !

The VC doesn't show it, but Marci is not voting here when Cyrus is limmed despite her seemingly being against Cyrus' "weird" wagon and despite VFP being a potential alternative that she has voiced she'd be willing to vote.

[ssbm_Kyouko]

The thing is, reading overnight I can see it being either of S&M or Marci. I think town!Marci would have come to the conclusion S&M is scum if she read the game. Maybe she's not reading? I'll post what else I have on scum!S&M now. I'm more convinced by scum!Marci at this point though.

[ssbm_Kyouko]

366-371: Is this scum theatre (where the scumteam's plan is to elect me because Alisae is gone and Alisae's ego ruined it for MO!Pooky), or Gamma laying foundations to infiltrate my TRs by campaigning for my MO?
612: Extremely confident in town Gamma, but why? I don't see any reason to be, except that they were recently teamed and S&M says Gamma is not behaving like he did in that game. Would still like that game next time you're around @ S&M
618-620: The buddy interaction I posted earlier, but also 618 is shopping for my elim. S&M also shops for my elim during our fight on D2 instead of addressing my arguments directly.

I mean, it's totally fair game to call him scum because his scumreads don't make sense. I think accusing him of ripping reads from his dead scumbuddy is pushing it, though.

I think it’s far more likely he wasn’t paying attention. I never actually implied that, all I said was it’s sus to me, that it’s the exact same srs. There’s 4 slots on Kitty wagon and Kyuku just happens to sus the same 2. My argument is if scum, he either wasn’t paying attention or he even possibly anticipated this kind of argument.

The way he said, if green, he’s voting Distance absolutely pinged me though. I think Kitty wagon is pure and if Kyuku’s plan is to yeet the extremely unlikely non-existent busser, if I’m right, his srs will eventually probably include Imaginality and Gamma because he’s not looking elsewhere.

The way he said, if green, he’s voting Distance absolutely pinged me though.

I did not say this. I said if you are green I will reconsider Distance. If you're red I'll absolutely be voting Distance.

So here it could just be TvT tunnel vision by S&M, but when I said "if you are green I will reconsider Distance", what I meant was, imo, clear, in the context of my original post: "Distance could be your partner but if you are green I will reevaluate that Distance could be scum because he makes sense as your partner, but not necessarily on his own." Felt to me at the time that S&M intentionally missed the meaning in my original post 605.

Speaking of 605 though, does scum!S&M kill Distance when this is what I'm expressing? I think it makes sense for Gamma to make that kill, but not S&M.

Then there's the original push on me which seemed disingenuous, as well as hard defending of Gamma whenever I tried to put pressure on him, which btw, if you all read my ISO, you should be able to see that I'm not bussing Gamma but am genuinely suspicious.

[ssbm_Kyouko]

I don't think it's S&M.

Nancy tends to play pretty agenda-based when she's scum and she's not afraid to get into shitfights with people. I think their whole progression is pretty antithetical to that mindset-- how she immediately reached out to me when I replaced in and pretty quickly got a townread on me, and then she actually acted on that townread when it counted, and they got and played their PR's in a way that doesn't feel scum-motivated (especially when they tracked you and thought they cleared you which, while wrong, was likely genuine).

I thought the same thing about their night actions. They make sense from a town POV. Just that they keep pushing me for what looks like blatantly made up reasons, like the way they suddenly flipped on me because they clarified something with Gypyx (which turned out to be false). And typing up what I had as notes for scum!S&M, I'm not really convinced the way I am when I read Gamma. I think it's just clear that scum coasted this game, and they would have gotten away with it too, if it weren't for those meddling kids and that pesky (watch)dog. Did anyone get neighborized by Imaginality btw? In my last game with a (full) neighborizer they had a PT before they neighborized anyone. So conceivably he could have left legacy in a PT and sent it to someone he trusts as town. I would expect that to be S_S, but you haven't said anything about it. Idk if because he was X-shot he didn't get a hood right away, or if he didn't want to be confused for a killer if anyone still had tracker/watcher shots (by claims that should not be the case). Maybe he just didn't think to use it, or maybe the kill canceled it out in this case. By NAR I think the neighborizer should resolve even if he dies.

Only reason I'm not voting yet is I want responses from S&M, but I intend to vote Marci atm

[ssbm_Kyouko]

And did he have anything in the PT for you to share now?

[ssbm_Kyouko]

You can paraphrase like with a role PM, but cant quote

[ssbm_Kyouko]

14. 1-shot Neighborizer : Choose another player. You will receive a QT upon daystart where you may talk any time while alive.

15. 2-shot Neighborizer : Choose another player.

You will receive a QT upon daystart where you may talk any time while alive.

fuckin got em
VOTE: Marcistar

[ssbm_Kyouko]

[ssbm_Kyouko]

Imaginality doesn't receive his QT until daystart and cannot post in it unless he is alive.

[ssbm_Kyouko]

Did anyone get neighborized by Imaginality btw?

me

[ssbm_Kyouko]

oh it's D6 lol
UNVOTE:

Will still wait for S&M.

Can you share what was in the hood?

[ssbm_Kyouko]

I started this calorie counting thing recently (this is day 3 of it) and my body is still adjusting, not thinking as clearly as usual.

[ssbm_Kyouko]

I do lean towards believing SS, btw. I just hate the assumptions being made. Even S&M's assumption mastina's flip

confirms

marci as town is wrong (though I townread her anyway)

for me, its down to 2 of gamma/something_smart/ssbm_kyouko

ssbm_kyouko by far seems the safest as im having doubt between gamma/something_smart right now.

i feel like i might be being dumb rn t_t being in this position is so hard

I have no clue. SS seemed to think he got an inno on you and that’s why he died, so probably cop, because no one has claimed it..

im thinking deeply of this tho, why wouldn't distance have just straight up claim the inno on me then..? cop only 1 shot, he has no reason to hide his action from us.

That’s definitely fake
But who’s the partner

Why does SS lie? You flip town, he’s next and no bus drivers or redirectors were available to bid on.

it's mylo today
so a fake guilty is what scum would want to try to pull off

How is it Mylo? And sorry but I don’t see why SS would lie here?

It's melo because we're down to 6 right?

S&M, marci, me, Gamma, SS, ssbm

If we elim wrong today, scum successfully NK ( they have hitman presumably so I can't block them, nor can a hypothetical town doc) and we're down to 4 players tomorrow and can't out-majority scum.

There is

only one scenario

we win if that's the case: both remaining townies are present at daystart and slam votes onto the same scum player before scum can both slam votes onto a townie. In that case we'd win the tiebreak at day end. Not impossible but not something we can take for granted either.

I'll probably end up on Marci anyways but I agree you shouldn't be voting as it means, if you vote town, that the scum can vote with you on that town and secure the win. Doctor is 100% dead (or scum) already, as only Flea, Distance, and Cupcake bids are unaccounted for from D1, so toDay is all we have

[ssbm_Kyouko]

Oh I was Q+ing in another tab, must be cached or something idk, but those quotes were me reading Imaginality/Marci to see if their interactions change after Marci claims to have been neighborized and I think I believe she was neighborized by Imaginality that night.

[ssbm_Kyouko]

S&M was also pretty vehemently against the idea that the Kitty wagon was a bus and look what it turned out to be.

[ssbm_Kyouko]

While it is risky to swap the claims, Watcher is a somewhat safe role to do it with. You can watch your scumpartner to see if they got AD'ed in the Night. If not, it is safe to swap claims.

In the case of scum!S_S:

Gamma buys Watcher for 500.
Gamma watches S_S and sees that nobody targeted him.
The following day, they swap their claims safely.
S_S bids 499 on Godfather
S_S busses Gamma the next day and buys Hitman to finish out the game.

I don't really think this is that plausible, but that is how it would work.

[ssbm_Kyouko]

Yo read this scumgame where Gamma and Nancy were partners. Nancy is in the Mia and maya Fey hydra. This is like reading a clone of this game. Iso her with Gamma. Gamma even does the same little.face thing in that game (605 of the linked game) that he did on D1 in what was apparently a theater interaction as the two of them vote me for MO 364-371

viewtopic.php?t=86803&f=3&st=0&sk=t&sd= ... er_sort=Go

In post 666 of that game, as scum, she literally uses the exact same excuse about how she pushed scum!bell into oblivion. Practically word for word. Compare to 653

1466-1467 is them discussing their partner
1917. I think this is koba

[ssbm_Kyouko]

They also work together on pushing moongrass in that game, similar to how they work together on me, Imaginality, and VFP in this one

[ssbm_Kyouko]

They also won that game so who's to say they wouldn't try a similar strat here? A third, lower activity scum partner that can be bussed for cred, then they just townblock up with each other and ride it to endgame.

VOTE: S&M

[ssbm_Kyouko]

Can you share what was in the hood?

sure

Spoiler:

said he had a townread on me and wanted to share his rb target without announcing in thread.

we talked about the mastina kill,
then [after something_smart outed his results] had a long chat about gamma and something_smart.

i originally trusted it instantly because the numbers did add up.

he showed what he was thinking during the night;
scum wouldve bid more on hitman if they could (other scum mustve bid 499+), he was wary of something_smarts claim because of this. though he knew there was a chance something_smart was truthful.

then i started having second guesses about gamma.

talked about gamma possibly being framed, i tried to figure out how gamma couldve been framed. i mentioned susing you around this time.

at this point he had reads something like
-he could see you being possible scum, but liked ur posts.
-thought smoke had bad posts, but would prob be town is gamma was scum
-something_smart could be bussing, but thats risky. felt like watcher wouldve been killed instead of mastina (if watcher was town).

i mentioned i thought of the possibility of something_smart bussing but thought they wouldve just faked a guilty on you instead.
mentioned how smokes posts at this point eased my worries about gamma. this is where i said gamma would prob be scum

the numbers to him seemed a bit planned i think, he said it felt too easy.

he talked about scum lying about bids, he mentioned something_smart and smoke in this post.

i asked if smoke wouldve bussed so early into a game.

he said he could see it, talked about how if he was partners with pooky he would've just told pooky to not post so that they could play the meta to their advantage.
mentioned how ^ is an outside possibility, at this point he said its more likely something_smart and you, ssbm_kyouko >

#1 or if hes wrong about gamma, it would be you and gamma.

i mentioned how gamma as town would've prob voted something_smart alot quicker,

#2and mentioned how u didnt seem town based on ur play

(d5).

#3he mentioned how someone used the "voting alot quicker" argument on him before > so it isnt certain

.

#4he asked if its common that scum cant see the bids they hid

, he thought if it wasnt common knowledge that this couldve been a scumtell on you (that you knew)

i mentioned how you pushed him not voting cupcake instantly
i asked if gamma did anything to help town, mentioned how something_smart has done more.

#5i mentioned how you felt like you were keeping options open + trying to please easier to convinced people.

mentioned how im the worst person to ask about what the common knowledge is.

#6he agreed gamma hasnt done much, if it werent for the watcher result and the hitman bid he wouldve voted gamma based on content.
he mentioned if its gamma, he thought remaining scum would try to get a miselim on him. he thought it wouldve been a big red flag of whoever that person is

.

i mentioned how itll be easier if he isnt killed,
mentioned possibilty of if the remaining scum had a hitman they might leave him alone.

[gamma flips around this time]

he wanted to see if a something_smart roleblock will work, didnt think he could have hitman (scum reversing bids seemed too risky).
he said theres no use for scum to no kill in this scenario since that would give us an extra miselim chance.

he said it was most likely something_smart would be cleared, and one of me/smoke dies.

i mentioned how i dont think something_smart has hitman as well,

#7mentioned how i think ur (ssbm_kyouko) scum, and how i think ull try to get imaginality miselimed

.

we talked about how sure i was on this read on you.

hopefully this is allowed..? ill cry if not lol-
hopefully its understandable who said what..?

I have questions about the green parts that will come below the rest of this post. I numbered your quote to make it easier to point to the parts I'm asking about.

Alright S&M is just gone right now I guess. I don't think either Hydra head is posting elsewhere though. I think Distance was Inno'ing you, because I've been reading your Tallin ISO and mafia PT and I actually think that game is not convincingly different than this one. Not so much so that he would make a show of metadiving you and treating any pushes on you as a scumclaim.

I also think it would be risky for S_S and Gamma to flip the bids. In that case, they would be relying on Hitman to appear in the future, way back on D2. That's a long-haul game plan, but Gamma, when scum in the first iteration of this setup, talks in the PT about having a long plan. Maybe supporting me for MO and keeping me alive the whole time is to make me look like the partner. I'm going to have to convince you and possibly S&M that is not the case, or we're just going to lose.

I did have another thought about Misty last night regarding the D1 wagons and the replace though: Misty was trying to push VFP as an alternative to Kitty. Gamma was bussing Kitty. I tried to convince Gamma to not vote Kitty and vote VFP instead. Gamma had a chance to get off of Kitty that was being offered by the Town MO (me), and Gamma still did not come. I think scum!Misty that did not want Gamma to bus their partner may have been upset that Gamma didn't take that chance and may have not wanted to play with Gamma anymore. When Gamma replaces in, Misty asks if he's been reading. I am pretty sure I've heard Gamma state that when he replaces in as scum he reads the thread first and does not look at the PT because it makes his catchup look more natural. Misty asking this question might be a "*nudge*, check the PT." Add that to Misty's comments on "I think this can be won by poe" and "that's going to be my excuse anyways" do read to me like scum that is making an excuse. Add that to the replace-out, it just seems a little fishy to me. I'm not really going to be pursuing S_S though unless S&M can convince me they're town.

1. Did Imaginality provide any quotes or generalized reasoning for a partnership between me and Gamma? I'd like to address any that are resonating with you as he's no longer around to discuss with

2. Can you go into what doesn't seem town about my D5 or any other parts of the game? Again I'd like to address concerns

3. Can you provide context to this? I'm not sure what it's referring to.

4. In case you're still wondering, scum cannot see the redacted bid (I've read Gamma's scum PT from the first iteration of this setup). If scum wins the redacted bid, the player that wins it still sees how much they won it for and can tell the scumteam.

5. I'm definitely keeping options open. I'm fairly certain I'm the only person who actually pushed Gamma during this game for his content prior to the S_S guilty on him. Lots of other players were writing him off as town, notably S&M. I even state when I push him that I think nobody else is giving him the attention his slot deserves. Nobody else was keeping their options open enough to see he was scum. I've already posted some quotes but can post more in a dedicated post if you need, to showcase my pushing on Gamma and others' "passive" townreading of him.

6. Pretty sure this read of Imaginality's (voting him for his play before the guilty) comes from my push on Gamma. Although Gamma and S&M were hardpushing {VFP, Imaginality, Kyouko} POE for a lot of the game so Imaginality would probably be more likely to be paying close attention to Gamma.

Also looking at that POE^, I don't think it makes sense for me to be scum. Gamma was freely following S&M's vote on me when it came. I don't think bussing both of your teammates is a solid plan in this setup considering the resources. Also, if it were the plan to bus me after I used my resources, my enhances would have been completely different this game. Look at all the investigative power that got through, and how few scum roles got through. Yes, some made it in, but in later days when there are fewer total possibilities (X), a 1/X chance of rolling a scum power like 2-shot Hitman becomes more likely.

7. Why did you think I would try to get him miseliminated? I briefly flip-flopped end of D3 I think when CB was eliminated, I remember voting him so he would have to vote CB to self-preserve, and I SRed him on D1 some, but aside from those times, as I recall I thought he was actually trying to solve. I think he Cupcake and I have been the most active about solving in this game.

[ssbm_Kyouko]

Have I actually caught 2 scum? That would be amazing. But it’s so freaking obvious that scum was trying to set us up that either Kyuku is the worst scumhunter in mafia history or he actually is scum. Rn, I’m leaning to yes.

The other "scum" she caught is Imaginality here.

Have I actually caught 2 scum? That would be amazing. But it’s so freaking obvious that scum was trying to set us up that either Kyuku is the worst scumhunter in mafia history or he actually is scum. Rn, I’m leaning to yes.

You know what, this got me thinking and I have 0 of the good vibes I got from kyouko in mini 2213 rn
VOTE: ssbm_kyouko
I feel like a bastard for this but it’s making enough sense and S&M has earned my trust

This is the reasoning Gamma gives for voting me. Blatantly opportunistic, and I call it out in a bit in a wallpost with S&M. Then when I bring it up at a later time as a reason to SR Gamma outside of "your ISO looks like a sports caster filling dead air with a co-caster", Gamma gets defensive about it and shades me because I didn't bring it up right away, rather than addressing my concerns. S&M has also shown a pattern of discrediting me, shading me, and generally yelling louder than me instead of engaging me in actual discussion when I voice scumreads on them. Just the way Gamma does, only he doesn't do it as loudly because it isn't in his playstyle. I can link my scum games. This is not scum!me.

@Gamma Emerald
@Smoke and Mirrors
@cyrus62
@marcistar
@ssbm_Kyouko

Unless I've missed a post, none of you are currently voting.
Someone is going to get eliminated in less than a day (barring an extension or explicit no-elim votes getting plurality)

Currently there are by my count 3 votes on VFP, 2 on Something_Smart, and 1 on mastina.

1. Who do you want to see eliminated out of those three?
2. Vote for that person before end of day

If your answer to 1 is "someone else", vote for that person.
If your answer to 1 is "don't elim anyone today", vote for No Execute.

If you don't vote for someone else (or no execute) I shall assume tomorrow you're happy with VFP being eliminated.

I really don’t like how arm-twisty this is

I feel like if scum is on the kitty wagon it’s imaginality because their posting just feels inordinately scummy
And scrolling through the topic review in the preview window I’m not alone in feeling this

I can really see a possible Kitty/Kyuku/Imaginality team. I don’t think it’s at all townie how hard he’s been pushing this bus theory, it screams possible tmi to me, like scum maybe actually knew this.

If it is exactly Kitty/Kyuku/Imaginality,

@Mastina, will you nom me for paragon?

Gamma too.

Have I actually solved this game on D2? It would make sense because no scumteam who is aware of my meta is ever suicidal enough to try to push me here.

ATE to Mastina (will you nom me for paragon comment), and tossing Gamma in within her own "townblock" that is implied by how she appeals to mastina/Gamma. S&M also hard TRs S_S in this game and could be white knighting. If not, then they're alive still because they had 2 scum in their townblock. Nice "paragon" play

Definitely moment of brilliance at least
(I’m not sure which head is posting)

Not sure if this is scum!Gamma trolling S&M or trolling the rest of town by openly gloating with his partner in preparation to quote in endgame about how they were so brilliant for buddying the MO and then mislimming them on D2. Reads like the open gloating to me but I can see it either way. Obviously Gamma is trolling now that we've seen him flip.

Have I actually caught 2 scum? That would be amazing. But it’s so freaking obvious that scum was trying to set us up that either Kyuku is the worst scumhunter in mafia history or he actually is scum. Rn, I’m leaning to yes.

You know what, this got me thinking and I have 0 of the good vibes I got from kyouko in mini 2213 rn
VOTE: ssbm_kyouko
I feel like a bastard for this but it’s making enough sense and S&M has earned my trust

I was leaning town on them until he brought up that Flea post. That screamed blatant scum frame up to me and I think Distance is very obviously town.

And the way Kyuku said if we flip green, he’s going to push Distance to push his bussing theory, That was the first thing that pinged me. Kyuku is very obviously trying to chain miselims on us and Distance.

This could be part of the motive for the Distance kill. Show the town that one of the players I thought was bussing was actually town, to discredit the bussing theory (which turned out to be correct). Another Distance motive for S_S is to call out the cop crumb to gain marci's trust, but he didn't need it. Marci had given him a free pass already writing off his replace-in as needing more time, becasue she would feel bad eliminating him right after that. Marci is not a threat to scum!S_S, so there is no need to buddy her.

Definitely moment of brilliance at least
(I’m not sure which head is posting)

Nancy. All of the posts but the first are mine.

Scum looked at Flea’s post, killed fae and decided to frame me and then they were planning to miselim Distance. Scum doesn’t realize I’m really smart and can see through this crap and didn’t really care for Imaginality questioning me either and there is absolutely not a damn thing scummy about Distance calling himself obvtown.

S&M doesn't mention that Gamma called them obvtown after the flip in 440. And they definitely saw it because they replied to my post which quotes 440 in their own 610. I would think that as town, you would be wary of scum doing something like this, and at least make a comment to address that Gamma is also not scummy. But S&M is probably already preparing to NK Distance tonight to shade me for pushing Distance as a busser, and is making posts that will gain them towncred later.

This post took a very long time to write on my phone. Please take the time to read it :/

Starting at 565, rereading S&M's ISO as they have accused me of acting in bad faith/ignoring their question:

In 610 you indicate I egregiously misunderstood you - what was it that I was misunderstanding? Could you clear that up for me?

639: this is the second time you've indicated I will eventually sr Imaginality and Gamma and ftr I'd already 180ed on Imaginality toward EoD1, and I believe neither of their votes on Kitty were a bus, and they dont have the same partner associations you and distance have with Kitty. I don't like their vote on me right now but they're generally bad at reading me from what I remember. Gamma will remember in 2213 how I, as a widely TRed townie, believed so strongly that he was town that I faked a guilty on another player who turned out to be town. I was right about Gamma then and I feel just as certain about VFP here. He is not dying toDay. I don't wk as scum.

If Gamma doesnt move off of me and I end up eliminated today, I urge you all to review 2213 and seriously consider Gamma's reasoning for voting me.

642 this is the first non-rhetorical question I've seen you post that I didn't already respond to, and even it borderlines on rhetorical. I do think there is a world where I am wrong about both you and Distance. I do not think we are in it, but I would bet the game on VFP being town here.

I am passing the MO to VFP as of right now.

643 here is where you provided a dissatisfactory answer to my question. I was asking specifically what you thought about the reasoning I provided at the time that I voted VFP at end of day 1? As a reminder/tldr, my reasoning was that Kitty seemed like the "default" plurality lim that was being slipped through by scum and that if scum wanted to lim Kitty, it made sense to me to lim anyone besides him. I saw Misty, who I was townreading at the time, voted VFP, a player I had an early scumread on, who I thought Gamma, another TR of mine, might be willing to vote. I then voted VFP and appealed to Gamma for assistance in eliminating VFP.

does any of my reasoning sound scummy to you? If so, please be specific. I believe you intentionally misinterpreted the intent of my question and avoided providing a complete answer. This was the original reason you cited for pushing me today and it is very important that you explain your reasoning, because as it stands your push appears to have been in bad faith.

652 here you ask if it is possible I was misunderstanding you. I interpreted from 565 where you originally shade me that you wanted town me to vote VFP, because In that post, you quote my vote count of the players on the VFP wagon as evidence. I think you were frustrated that I had lost interest in voting VFP after seeing the Kitty flip. This is unusual because VFP was counter to scum, so why would i want to vote him after that? And dont say I'm not voting him today for towncred, as i obviously dont need it, as is evidenced by the MO vote on D1.

I'll post the full quote for this one as there are embedded quotes that matter here and it's easier this way.

Having issues reading into people here. VFP and Flea are town though and it would take a lot to convince me they are scum. Marci is decent too.

Smoke and Distance are two of my SRs at this point in the game.

VOTE: kitty

Good vote and I really don’t understand the sr on you either. I don’t have a strong read on you yet but it looks like you’ve been genuinely sorting.

I still do think this. Have you critically examined his ISO? I’m referring to his other reads and don’t understand why town!you are myopically only focused on Kitty?

I explained why I tr him and it had absolutely nothing to do with Kitty. Re-read my ISO because you seem to be ignoring any of my posts that don’t seem to fit your narrative.

I have critically examined Distance's ISO. I believe there are associations there that point to a team with you and Kitty. I do not believe there was evidence of genuine sorting as of post 347 which is where you cited that you TR him for genuine sorting. His other reads were by and large, shallow or unexplained townreads that are easily faked as scum. There is nothing that indicates to me that he was scumhunting as of 347.

I have now reread your iso from 565 to this post I quoted and I dont believe I ignored any of your posts that "dont fit my narrative." If such posts exist, please quote them for everyone to see, so you can actually provide evidence to support at least one bit of shade you're casting on me.

664 sorry if I'm making you feel personally attacked - whether you're scum or not - I don't see another reason for you to bring this up, but please try to look out for bolded text if you can. If I weren't phone posting almost all the time I would color code or something to try to make my posts more clear for you.

714 if it has to be someone off the wagon, I'm not really sure. Obviously I'm tunneled.right now but I would have to reread d2 and see. Gut instinct, if the Kitty wagon was pure, Cyrus, CB, Marci, or S_S, most likely CB or Cyrus. I'm still suspicious about him being around at deadline on d1. I think he was looking to buy hitman for 425. Its possible scum!cyrus thought Roleblocker but I doubt it. If it just has to be someone off of the wagon then maybe mastina gets thrown in too because I'm having a hard time.reading her D1 and was somewhat relying on other players like yourself to let me know if I should be worried about her right now (on D1). Was saving her to sort for later but as i see her as a possible alternative partner to scum!you, or potentially using town!you as a beard, I'd probably want to look at her the closest. Problem is I dont have time to do any of that with the deadline incoming. Its 2 am here...

716 which head posted this? If it was nancy not pooky, why didn't you quote this before when I asked about Flea crumbing/claiming cop bid?

717 which question are you referring to? I think it's in bad faith to not let me know which question in this post. I did you that courtesy several times because I really care about getting a complete answer to a very specific question. You're not helping me to TR you if you are town, and I really am and have been trying.

719 while this may come from frustrated town, for that very reason it is also an excusable way for scum to dismiss my push: "I’m not sure I even care about parsing you if you’re going to be this bad."

However, you bringing up this quote is making lean to you’re not being town, why? Because if you use your brain, it’s pretty damned obvious that scum is trying to set us up and if you’re scum with Kitty, you referencing that quote makes perfect sense.

First of all, it is not obvious to me, so could you explain? Second, saying "if you're scum with kitty" kind of feels like something you only say if you know kitty has different partners, since kitty is already flipped. Maybe that's just tunnel vision though. The verbiage is weird to me.

722 if it is so blatantly obviously a shitpush, then why are you not providing any evidence to refute my points? Why are you instead resorting to discrediting me if, by your own admission, it is obvious what is wrong with my push? This is not how town behaves.

724 I have made every effort to be transparent in my push on you and you have resorted to discrediting me the entire time. It is laughable that you would accuse me of acting in bad faith when all of the evidence points to the contrary.

727
I get that you would notice it because it was directed at you. What was unusual was that you happened to remember it. It seems like such a minor detail to be concerned about as town, but it makes sense for scum to keep track of it.

The rest of the posts I'll respond to individually.

Because I find it inconceivable that anyone would seriously think that I A) read that post, acknowledged it and referenced it and still B) would do that if I killed Flea. It would be like I’m trying to set myself up the next day and that’s why it read like a possible frame up to me, like scum saw that post Flea made and killed fae to frame me.

I think that’s what very likely happened and since you were the one who pointed it out and have been tunnelling me despite catching Kitty, it looked like it was you. I don’t feel personally attacked though but it’s extremely hard for me to not see it as a shitpush. I don’t think Distance is scum, so I honestly don’t get that read either. When Kitty made all of those reads, he didn’t know he was getting elimed, that’s why I think he’s spewed town. I think Kitty was in antispew and every name he did reference was town.

I asked you who do you think is scum off Kitty wagon because if I’m wrong about you, then that’s where I believe scum most likely are.

I just felt like you aren’t really trying to sort me.

Gamma’s town sheeping me I think.

Well, I know I’m town and yes I’m aware that doesn’t mean anything AI, so I obviously know that there aren’t any associatives between my slot and anyone. This isn’t how I play scum but you obviously wouldn’t know that.

How much time left?

Cyrus, CB, Marci, or S_S, most likely CB or Cyrus

I see you did answer. I don’t think Marci. I liked her posting. I hard tr Misty and SS hasn’t done anything to ping me. It’s a toss up with CB. This isn’t typically how they play either town or scum. Maybe take another look at Cyrus?

He had this strange post claiming I said things I know I didn’t, so maybe I shouldn’t have been so quick to tr the no execute?

UNVOTE:

for now.

Note what I bolded in the internalized quote 760 here about Gamma. I identified back then that their vote on me was absolutely bullshit and left a bolded legacy for town, if I flip, go back to 2213 and look at how town!Gamma treated me there versus here. S&M's only response to that is that "Gamma's town sheeping me I think." - no critical examination of the vote, no concern whatsoever that Gamma could be voting in an opportunistic way, even when I point it out directly.

[ssbm_Kyouko]

Who do you think Kyouko’s partner is?

I also didn't want to out this earlier because I didn't want Gamma to know about this tell, but this is a post that tipped me off to Gamma. This is the type of thing that scum says about town that they don't want to flip to discourage other town from voting them, and knowing I'm town, and already suspecting he was scum, tipped the scales for me. Looking back on this now, I realize it's because I was being saved for LimLo's mislim. This makes sense because VFP and mastina were killed back to back. Yes mastina was tracker, but once VFP flipped, mastina's actual scumhunting effort would have to be redirected, possibly onto Gamma. S&M may have been worried mastina would turn on Gamma and that she would bea able to tell if S&M tried to dissuade her from pushing Gamma.

If Gamma doesnt move off of me and I end up eliminated today, I urge you all to review 2213 and seriously consider Gamma's reasoning for voting me.

is this what you mean by the thing you posted in your wall earlier?
Why does it not feel like you cared to do anything about this until now?

And this is the post where Gamma doesn't address my concerns about his vote. He provides no reasoning and instead shades me with a leading question.

[ssbm_Kyouko]

Oh and to follow up on it making sense to save me for LimLo: My pushes after D1 were on both S&M and Gamma. If I flipped before LimLo and they were both around in LimLo, it would have looked pretty bad the way they were pushing me, especially to Imaginality/VFP (who may be alive if I were mislimmed or NKed) who were in their POE as well.

[ssbm_Kyouko]

If Gamma and VFP both bid these amounts today the scumteam can no longer outbid everyone for the daykill.

This means gamma isn't scum

with

VFP.

Same would apply to the VFP-me scum pairing some people have been mooting. Or me-Gamma for that matter.

S&M, does ssbm's point change your views on me and/or VFP?

The fact that I misunderstood your 90 bid, means you weren’t being hypocritical about wanting town to bid high.

If it isn’t you/VFP than someone has been pocketing me really really good.

Here S&M points out that they are concerned that they have been pocketed if it's not VFP or Imaginality. This could be preparing to inno Gamma with tracker, and if anyone questioned S&M on the Gamma track they could say Gamma might have been pocketing them so they wanted to check him. It makes sense from a town perspective to try to use tracker to catch the more townread one of the scumteam, because if scum knows S&M won tracker by doing the math on AD plus Tracker, they know to send the scum that is in the trackers TRs to do the kill. That would be a town!S&M reasoning that scum!S&M could use to justify the targeting.

I don't understand it.
I was just going to say that SSBM is most likely town, but if they picked the 4 roles then that's a townlock.

I'm also happy to put everyone on the Kitty wagon as town.
Scum looked dis organised or just absent to not move over to me or even try else where.

Gylyx doesn't do a VC on a flip normally I think.

VOTE: MistyxVOTE:

I also don't think Marci is scum here.

I get to enhance 4 roles which makes them 400% more likely (I think this means 5x as likely but the setup may be worded incorrectly) to appear. I enhanced the 1-shot BP and also enhanced the 3 2-shot roles that appeared today. The 1-shot AD came in with it's normal chance, but I wanted it for tomorrow because it only.gives the most recent day of history. Both ADs the same day means unless the winner holds on to a shot they'll be looking at who bought the other AD potentially which is a but of a waste imo. Thought they'd be better staggered because then the second shot would line up with the 1-shot and we'd have 2 detectives looking at toMorrows bids when the player pool is reduced more

Ah, got it.
Thats for confirming. I actually thought by enhance you made it better.

Regardless I think the 4 we got are really strong for this early in the game.

I've only played with Nancy once (it was a Pooky Nora Nancy hydra) and I was Paranoid that they were bussing scum come late game.
I was wrong though and they flipped town.

Outside of that, I have no experience that I at least remember.

I keep going back and forth on this. I want to be super confident on a VFP scumflip but I just can’t. But if Gamma’s right and you actually are Vedith, then we’ve definitely played together before Happy Face.

I just don’t see why Marci kills Distance and who of my trs I could possibly be reading wrong. I guess it’s possible CB could be pocketing me? He did give me that tr pretty fast but he’s not really being scummy either. I’ve seen his scumgame and it didn’t look anything like this.

No concern that Gamma could be pocketing them here. Hmm

votecount 3.1

Gamma Emerald (0)
mastina (0)
Smoke and Mirrors (0)
Cupcake Butterfly (1) - ssbm_Kyouko
ssbm_Kyouko (1) - Imaginality
Something_Smart (1) - Marcistar
imaginality (1) - Gamma Emerald
marcistar (0)
VFP (1) - mastina

not voting (4) - Everyone

day 3 ends in (expired on 2021-07-02 02:48:08)

auction

the auctioned abilities are :

1-shot Godfather the top bid at mid point was 499

1-shot Tracker the top bid at mid point was 200

2-shot Ninja the top bid at mid point was 500

1-shot Jailkeeper the top bid at mid point was 150

We should let scum eat the GF bid, since they’re likely putting all of their pennies on Ninja, so I strongly recommend whomever gets tracker to use it to get an inno, because if scum has ninja than a tracker will just be wasted on them.

Gamma claimed he is bidding 499 on GF and VFP claimed he is bidding 500 on ninja

That’s very interesting. @Gamma why 499 and not 500? Well, in that case tracker should work on everyone but VFP.

I think if there had been a kill that S&M would have claimed they tracked Gamma if you catch my drift. That's why Gamma made a show of buying a role that cant go anywhere.

[ssbm_Kyouko]

Spoiler: My push on Gamma culminating in Imaginality voting Gamma

I just realized there are worlds where scum!S&M can buy both ADs, thirdscum can be just about anyone and they can still afford 200 for tracker, then S&M can announce the tracker result and appear to be town that bought 1-shot AD and Tracker. I dont think this happened, but it could have. So I realize voting based on bids doesnt really make sense. Any scum could be mixing and matching claims to make things appear differently to town trying to solve by numbers.

this is an outright lie


1-shot Auction Detective 300
2-shot Auction Detective 450
Tracker is 200

total is 950

scum start with 800 so its impossible for me to buy both ADs and Tracker

VOTE: Kyouko

Mafia players will receive 800Ð.

^


Kyouko just making lies up about me

OK so I think the mastina scum deliberately no-killing theory doesn't hold up. A bit too risky and I don't think mastina needed to take the risk.

So mastina town.
Ssbm I think is likely town because daykill has been pushed back and now is unavailable to scum, and buying hitman openly D1 needed him for future auctions.
Ssbm not being killed suggests to me scum may have been coin/PR hunting and know ssbm isn't a threat on either front.

If ssbm is town his push towards VFP D1 wasn't scum trying to deflect from Kitty. So VFP scum is more possible.

I think it was easy for marci if scum to town read me to get creds for a town flip, but I don't think it's as likely as marci town.

S&M everyone seems sure is town because of Kitty wagon.

VFP, Something_Smart, Gamma.
I can see how VFP scum would want me around as a future mis elim.

I think if VFP is scum it proves his D2 wagon was town as I think scum bussing D2 is too risky for them, auction wise. Conversely VFP town helps narrow down who's scum. (Per ssbm's count, the E-1 wagon on VFP day 2 had cyrus, distance, S&M, mastina, marcistar)

I think there's at most one scum among {VFP, S&M, mastina, marcistar}. Which leaves at least one among {ssbm, Something_Smart, Gamma}

So VFP isn't scum I think Something_Smart and Gamma are. And if VFP is scum I think one or the other of them is.

I just realized there are worlds where scum!S&M can buy both ADs, thirdscum can be just about anyone and

they

can still afford 200 for tracker, then S&M can announce the tracker result and appear to be town that bought 1-shot AD and Tracker. I dont think this happened, but it could have. So I realize voting based on bids doesnt really make sense. Any scum could be mixing and matching claims to make things appear differently to town trying to solve by numbers.

this is an outright lie


1-shot Auction Detective 300
2-shot Auction Detective 450
Tracker is 200

total is 950

scum start with 800 so its impossible for me to buy both ADs and Tracker

VOTE: Kyouko

Isn't the bolded referring to your hypothetical scumbuddy, not you?

I just realized there are worlds where scum!S&M can buy both ADs, thirdscum can be just about anyone and they can still afford 200 for tracker, then S&M can announce the tracker result and appear to be town that bought 1-shot AD and Tracker. I dont think this happened, but it could have. So I realize voting based on bids doesnt really make sense. Any scum could be mixing and matching claims to make things appear differently to town trying to solve by numbers.

this is an outright lie


1-shot Auction Detective 300
2-shot Auction Detective 450
Tracker is 200

total is 950

scum start with 800 so its impossible for me to buy both ADs and Tracker

VOTE: Kyouko

Reread the quoted post, and relax lmao

Oh I see from pronoun usage it is unclear upon reread. By "they" I mean the third scum. I also dont think that is what happened
What I'm saying is that, even with the info we have, it isn't enough to catch any scum by looking at auction prices directly, as they are able to mix and match their purchases if needed to make the numbers line up.

What I'm saying is we need to look at dayplay and see Gamma has been sidelining the whole game. He's not offering anything original, I dont think he's scumhunting so much as he's just following the flow of others' pushes, and it's pretty easy to see it by just reading his ISO.

I also think that Distancr and Marci as kills point towards a player like Gamma and the only other sideliney player like that is S_S. I think S_S makes sense as a partner to Gamma as well - the game just really points that way.

Gamma also shares some of your reads (Imaginality / VFP theory), so you might consider that he's hiding behind you

VOTE: Gamma Emerald

In this case on Gamma directed at S&M, I even point out to them explicitly that Gamma could be hiding behind them. S&M continues posting until deadline but never addresses this point. The next morning, S_S announces a guilty on Gamma. S&M pretty immediately votes Gamma without questioning if it's a fake in LimLo, slipping that she knows Gamma's alignment.

I think it's odd that one of their highest TRs guilties another of their highest TRs (probably top 2 TRs of S&M's left alive at that point in the game) and there is no pause to question which one they were wrong about.

[ssbm_Kyouko]

@mod can you confirm this night action resolution in thread since there seems to be some confusion?

A tracks B
B kills C
D jailkeeps C

What result does A receive?
-B didn't go anywhere
-No result

[ssbm_Kyouko]

Why tf would scum!us track a buddy?

This is explained in the post you quoted. You would Track Gamma to fake an inno on him. It didnt work as you'd planned because of the jailkeep.

[ssbm_Kyouko]

Spoiler: My push on Gamma culminating in Imaginality voting Gamma

I just realized there are worlds where scum!S&M can buy both ADs, thirdscum can be just about anyone and they can still afford 200 for tracker, then S&M can announce the tracker result and appear to be town that bought 1-shot AD and Tracker. I dont think this happened, but it could have. So I realize voting based on bids doesnt really make sense. Any scum could be mixing and matching claims to make things appear differently to town trying to solve by numbers.

this is an outright lie


1-shot Auction Detective 300
2-shot Auction Detective 450
Tracker is 200

total is 950

scum start with 800 so its impossible for me to buy both ADs and Tracker

VOTE: Kyouko

Mafia players will receive 800Ð.

^


Kyouko just making lies up about me

OK so I think the mastina scum deliberately no-killing theory doesn't hold up. A bit too risky and I don't think mastina needed to take the risk.

So mastina town.
Ssbm I think is likely town because daykill has been pushed back and now is unavailable to scum, and buying hitman openly D1 needed him for future auctions.
Ssbm not being killed suggests to me scum may have been coin/PR hunting and know ssbm isn't a threat on either front.

If ssbm is town his push towards VFP D1 wasn't scum trying to deflect from Kitty. So VFP scum is more possible.

I think it was easy for marci if scum to town read me to get creds for a town flip, but I don't think it's as likely as marci town.

S&M everyone seems sure is town because of Kitty wagon.

VFP, Something_Smart, Gamma.
I can see how VFP scum would want me around as a future mis elim.

I think if VFP is scum it proves his D2 wagon was town as I think scum bussing D2 is too risky for them, auction wise. Conversely VFP town helps narrow down who's scum. (Per ssbm's count, the E-1 wagon on VFP day 2 had cyrus, distance, S&M, mastina, marcistar)

I think there's at most one scum among {VFP, S&M, mastina, marcistar}. Which leaves at least one among {ssbm, Something_Smart, Gamma}

So VFP isn't scum I think Something_Smart and Gamma are. And if VFP is scum I think one or the other of them is.

I just realized there are worlds where scum!S&M can buy both ADs, thirdscum can be just about anyone and

they

can still afford 200 for tracker, then S&M can announce the tracker result and appear to be town that bought 1-shot AD and Tracker. I dont think this happened, but it could have. So I realize voting based on bids doesnt really make sense. Any scum could be mixing and matching claims to make things appear differently to town trying to solve by numbers.

this is an outright lie


1-shot Auction Detective 300
2-shot Auction Detective 450
Tracker is 200

total is 950

scum start with 800 so its impossible for me to buy both ADs and Tracker

VOTE: Kyouko

Isn't the bolded referring to your hypothetical scumbuddy, not you?

I just realized there are worlds where scum!S&M can buy both ADs, thirdscum can be just about anyone and they can still afford 200 for tracker, then S&M can announce the tracker result and appear to be town that bought 1-shot AD and Tracker. I dont think this happened, but it could have. So I realize voting based on bids doesnt really make sense. Any scum could be mixing and matching claims to make things appear differently to town trying to solve by numbers.

this is an outright lie


1-shot Auction Detective 300
2-shot Auction Detective 450
Tracker is 200

total is 950

scum start with 800 so its impossible for me to buy both ADs and Tracker

VOTE: Kyouko

Reread the quoted post, and relax lmao

Oh I see from pronoun usage it is unclear upon reread. By "they" I mean the third scum. I also dont think that is what happened
What I'm saying is that, even with the info we have, it isn't enough to catch any scum by looking at auction prices directly, as they are able to mix and match their purchases if needed to make the numbers line up.

What I'm saying is we need to look at dayplay and see Gamma has been sidelining the whole game. He's not offering anything original, I dont think he's scumhunting so much as he's just following the flow of others' pushes, and it's pretty easy to see it by just reading his ISO.

I also think that Distancr and Marci as kills point towards a player like Gamma and the only other sideliney player like that is S_S. I think S_S makes sense as a partner to Gamma as well - the game just really points that way.

Gamma also shares some of your reads (Imaginality / VFP theory), so you might consider that he's hiding behind you

VOTE: Gamma Emerald

In this case on Gamma directed at S&M, I even point out to them explicitly that Gamma could be hiding behind them. S&M continues posting until deadline but never addresses this point. The next morning, S_S announces a guilty on Gamma. S&M pretty immediately votes Gamma without questioning if it's a fake in LimLo, slipping that she knows Gamma's alignment.

I think it's odd that one of their highest TRs guilties another of their highest TRs (probably top 2 TRs of S&M's left alive at that point in the game) and there is no pause to question which one they were wrong about.

Gamma wasn’t a hider, he flipped goon. Because I trusted S_S, which is why I fought so hard to save him.

Do I seriously need to requote the scummy reactions Gamma had to the guilty. which I pointed out? Or are you also going to pretend that never happened?

Yes, you need to case me. We are in mlimlo. If you want this win you're going to have to work for it. Demonstrate that I make sense as a Gamma partner, and refute my case if you're town. If you don't, and S_S is scum, we lose. Deadline is no excuse today either because we can still no lim to get more day phases.

[ssbm_Kyouko]

Spoiler: My push on Gamma culminating in Imaginality voting Gamma

I just realized there are worlds where scum!S&M can buy both ADs, thirdscum can be just about anyone and they can still afford 200 for tracker, then S&M can announce the tracker result and appear to be town that bought 1-shot AD and Tracker. I dont think this happened, but it could have. So I realize voting based on bids doesnt really make sense. Any scum could be mixing and matching claims to make things appear differently to town trying to solve by numbers.

this is an outright lie


1-shot Auction Detective 300
2-shot Auction Detective 450
Tracker is 200

total is 950

scum start with 800 so its impossible for me to buy both ADs and Tracker

VOTE: Kyouko

Mafia players will receive 800Ð.

^


Kyouko just making lies up about me

OK so I think the mastina scum deliberately no-killing theory doesn't hold up. A bit too risky and I don't think mastina needed to take the risk.

So mastina town.
Ssbm I think is likely town because daykill has been pushed back and now is unavailable to scum, and buying hitman openly D1 needed him for future auctions.
Ssbm not being killed suggests to me scum may have been coin/PR hunting and know ssbm isn't a threat on either front.

If ssbm is town his push towards VFP D1 wasn't scum trying to deflect from Kitty. So VFP scum is more possible.

I think it was easy for marci if scum to town read me to get creds for a town flip, but I don't think it's as likely as marci town.

S&M everyone seems sure is town because of Kitty wagon.

VFP, Something_Smart, Gamma.
I can see how VFP scum would want me around as a future mis elim.

I think if VFP is scum it proves his D2 wagon was town as I think scum bussing D2 is too risky for them, auction wise. Conversely VFP town helps narrow down who's scum. (Per ssbm's count, the E-1 wagon on VFP day 2 had cyrus, distance, S&M, mastina, marcistar)

I think there's at most one scum among {VFP, S&M, mastina, marcistar}. Which leaves at least one among {ssbm, Something_Smart, Gamma}

So VFP isn't scum I think Something_Smart and Gamma are. And if VFP is scum I think one or the other of them is.

I just realized there are worlds where scum!S&M can buy both ADs, thirdscum can be just about anyone and

they

can still afford 200 for tracker, then S&M can announce the tracker result and appear to be town that bought 1-shot AD and Tracker. I dont think this happened, but it could have. So I realize voting based on bids doesnt really make sense. Any scum could be mixing and matching claims to make things appear differently to town trying to solve by numbers.

this is an outright lie


1-shot Auction Detective 300
2-shot Auction Detective 450
Tracker is 200

total is 950

scum start with 800 so its impossible for me to buy both ADs and Tracker

VOTE: Kyouko

Isn't the bolded referring to your hypothetical scumbuddy, not you?

I just realized there are worlds where scum!S&M can buy both ADs, thirdscum can be just about anyone and they can still afford 200 for tracker, then S&M can announce the tracker result and appear to be town that bought 1-shot AD and Tracker. I dont think this happened, but it could have. So I realize voting based on bids doesnt really make sense. Any scum could be mixing and matching claims to make things appear differently to town trying to solve by numbers.

this is an outright lie


1-shot Auction Detective 300
2-shot Auction Detective 450
Tracker is 200

total is 950

scum start with 800 so its impossible for me to buy both ADs and Tracker

VOTE: Kyouko

Reread the quoted post, and relax lmao

Oh I see from pronoun usage it is unclear upon reread. By "they" I mean the third scum. I also dont think that is what happened
What I'm saying is that, even with the info we have, it isn't enough to catch any scum by looking at auction prices directly, as they are able to mix and match their purchases if needed to make the numbers line up.

What I'm saying is we need to look at dayplay and see Gamma has been sidelining the whole game. He's not offering anything original, I dont think he's scumhunting so much as he's just following the flow of others' pushes, and it's pretty easy to see it by just reading his ISO.

I also think that Distancr and Marci as kills point towards a player like Gamma and the only other sideliney player like that is S_S. I think S_S makes sense as a partner to Gamma as well - the game just really points that way.

Gamma also shares some of your reads (Imaginality / VFP theory), so you might consider that he's hiding behind you

VOTE: Gamma Emerald

In this case on Gamma directed at S&M, I even point out to them explicitly that Gamma could be hiding behind them. S&M continues posting until deadline but never addresses this point. The next morning, S_S announces a guilty on Gamma. S&M pretty immediately votes Gamma without questioning if it's a fake in LimLo, slipping that she knows Gamma's alignment.

I think it's odd that one of their highest TRs guilties another of their highest TRs (probably top 2 TRs of S&M's left alive at that point in the game) and there is no pause to question which one they were wrong about.

Gamma wasn’t a hider, he flipped goon. Because I trusted S_S, which is why I fought so hard to save him.

Do I seriously need to requote the scummy reactions Gamma had to the guilty. which I pointed out? Or are you also going to pretend that never happened?

Jesus christ are you obtuse? Obviously Gamma isn't a Hider, this is an open setup. It is clear from context that I am saying he could be hiding behind town!you's pushes and reads to look less scummy as your scumreads get flipped as red. I'm saying he could be buddying you, pocketing you, etc.

[ssbm_Kyouko]

@mod can you confirm this night action resolution in thread since there seems to be some confusion?

A tracks B
B kills C
D jailkeeps C

What result does A receive?
-B didn't go anywhere
-No result

Oops I did the same thing I did in my pm, what I meant to present as options:

-B visits C
-No Result

[ssbm_Kyouko]

Why tf would scum!us track a buddy?

This is explained in the post you quoted. You would Track Gamma to fake an inno on him. It didnt work as you'd planned because of the jailkeep.

Keep rewriting history.

We tracked you.

If you tracked me you saw I did not go anywhere. This is not an inno on me because 2 scum were alive, but combined with the fact I had hitman available from D1, it may as well be an inno. If I were scum I would have used it that night. The time to use it would be to get around the Jailkeeper. Doctors can only stop the kill by guessing the target. The JK can stop the kill by guessing the target, guessing the killer, or even accidentally stop it for the wrong reasons by trying to protect the killer.

[ssbm_Kyouko]

Spoiler: My push on Gamma culminating in Imaginality voting Gamma

I just realized there are worlds where scum!S&M can buy both ADs, thirdscum can be just about anyone and they can still afford 200 for tracker, then S&M can announce the tracker result and appear to be town that bought 1-shot AD and Tracker. I dont think this happened, but it could have. So I realize voting based on bids doesnt really make sense. Any scum could be mixing and matching claims to make things appear differently to town trying to solve by numbers.

this is an outright lie


1-shot Auction Detective 300
2-shot Auction Detective 450
Tracker is 200

total is 950

scum start with 800 so its impossible for me to buy both ADs and Tracker

VOTE: Kyouko

Mafia players will receive 800Ð.

^


Kyouko just making lies up about me

OK so I think the mastina scum deliberately no-killing theory doesn't hold up. A bit too risky and I don't think mastina needed to take the risk.

So mastina town.
Ssbm I think is likely town because daykill has been pushed back and now is unavailable to scum, and buying hitman openly D1 needed him for future auctions.
Ssbm not being killed suggests to me scum may have been coin/PR hunting and know ssbm isn't a threat on either front.

If ssbm is town his push towards VFP D1 wasn't scum trying to deflect from Kitty. So VFP scum is more possible.

I think it was easy for marci if scum to town read me to get creds for a town flip, but I don't think it's as likely as marci town.

S&M everyone seems sure is town because of Kitty wagon.

VFP, Something_Smart, Gamma.
I can see how VFP scum would want me around as a future mis elim.

I think if VFP is scum it proves his D2 wagon was town as I think scum bussing D2 is too risky for them, auction wise. Conversely VFP town helps narrow down who's scum. (Per ssbm's count, the E-1 wagon on VFP day 2 had cyrus, distance, S&M, mastina, marcistar)

I think there's at most one scum among {VFP, S&M, mastina, marcistar}. Which leaves at least one among {ssbm, Something_Smart, Gamma}

So VFP isn't scum I think Something_Smart and Gamma are. And if VFP is scum I think one or the other of them is.

I just realized there are worlds where scum!S&M can buy both ADs, thirdscum can be just about anyone and

they

can still afford 200 for tracker, then S&M can announce the tracker result and appear to be town that bought 1-shot AD and Tracker. I dont think this happened, but it could have. So I realize voting based on bids doesnt really make sense. Any scum could be mixing and matching claims to make things appear differently to town trying to solve by numbers.

this is an outright lie


1-shot Auction Detective 300
2-shot Auction Detective 450
Tracker is 200

total is 950

scum start with 800 so its impossible for me to buy both ADs and Tracker

VOTE: Kyouko

Isn't the bolded referring to your hypothetical scumbuddy, not you?

I just realized there are worlds where scum!S&M can buy both ADs, thirdscum can be just about anyone and they can still afford 200 for tracker, then S&M can announce the tracker result and appear to be town that bought 1-shot AD and Tracker. I dont think this happened, but it could have. So I realize voting based on bids doesnt really make sense. Any scum could be mixing and matching claims to make things appear differently to town trying to solve by numbers.

this is an outright lie


1-shot Auction Detective 300
2-shot Auction Detective 450
Tracker is 200

total is 950

scum start with 800 so its impossible for me to buy both ADs and Tracker

VOTE: Kyouko

Reread the quoted post, and relax lmao

Oh I see from pronoun usage it is unclear upon reread. By "they" I mean the third scum. I also dont think that is what happened
What I'm saying is that, even with the info we have, it isn't enough to catch any scum by looking at auction prices directly, as they are able to mix and match their purchases if needed to make the numbers line up.

What I'm saying is we need to look at dayplay and see Gamma has been sidelining the whole game. He's not offering anything original, I dont think he's scumhunting so much as he's just following the flow of others' pushes, and it's pretty easy to see it by just reading his ISO.

I also think that Distancr and Marci as kills point towards a player like Gamma and the only other sideliney player like that is S_S. I think S_S makes sense as a partner to Gamma as well - the game just really points that way.

Gamma also shares some of your reads (Imaginality / VFP theory), so you might consider that he's hiding behind you

VOTE: Gamma Emerald

In this case on Gamma directed at S&M, I even point out to them explicitly that Gamma could be hiding behind them. S&M continues posting until deadline but never addresses this point. The next morning, S_S announces a guilty on Gamma. S&M pretty immediately votes Gamma without questioning if it's a fake in LimLo, slipping that she knows Gamma's alignment.

I think it's odd that one of their highest TRs guilties another of their highest TRs (probably top 2 TRs of S&M's left alive at that point in the game) and there is no pause to question which one they were wrong about.

Gamma wasn’t a hider, he flipped goon. Because I trusted S_S, which is why I fought so hard to save him.

Do I seriously need to requote the scummy reactions Gamma had to the guilty. which I pointed out? Or are you also going to pretend that never happened?

Jesus christ are you obtuse? Obviously Gamma isn't a Hider, this is an open setup. It is clear from context that I am saying he could be hiding behind town!you's pushes and reads to look less scummy as your scumreads get flipped as red. I'm saying he could be buddying you, pocketing you, etc.

He was obviously buddying me and I was wrong to not listen to CB on Alisae. I honestly thought Alisae would play a lot better as scum but I honestly can’t see why scum!Gamma would try so hard to push me to vote you for MO if you weren’t his buddy?

What other possible reason would he do that?

If you’re not his buddy, then he should have been fine with me voting for Flea or CB. He also didn’t say anything about it being deadline as a reason either, He hardpushed this and scum!Mastina did something very similar in a game but far less obviously. She tried to get us all to vote for her buddy Pink Ball. The difference was she was a lot more subtle but also, it actually mattered a lot less than in this game.

I also know we’re town.
I don’t believe SS would ever guilty a buddy. I have meta on him, remember?
I believe Distance inno’d Marci and that’s why he died. I also don’t see why Marci would kill Distance.

Mastina would never have scum!me as her #1 tr and has never townlocked me as scum. She said that this is “transparently town!Nancy”. I can dig up the post if need be. I just don’t see how it’s not you, because every single damn thing points to it.

And wrt to your nonsense track Gamma thing, why then didn’t we claim that? As Imaginality pointed out, why wrongly claim an inno on you? And had I not clarified with Gypyx that that inno was meaningless if you visited jk’d Marci, you might possibly have won this but the jk thing made me doubt that our result was valid, so damn good thing I verified it.

If he was obviously buddying you then why didn't you track him? You expressed suspicion that you were being buddies and you addressed the possibility of S_S, CB, and maybe Mastina buddying you, but you never mentioned the possibility he was buddying you. If it is now obvious, and you were suspicious at the time, why did you not address it, and why did you not use your tracker in a manner consistent with your read on the gamestate?

Gamma didnt push you hard to vote me for MO. He made a short and simple post: "why NOT?" And you immediately acquiesced. I guess somehow you already were strongly TRing him for no reason before the Kitty wagon flipped, as the presence on the Kitty wagon seems to be your excuse for TRing him in this game. Convenient that you can do that and avoid analyzing his play.

You were both working together to buddy me. It is clear when reading his reasoning for voting me MO that he is appealing to my emotions. This is just a continuation of his plan to get you two into the town block by campaigning publicly for a town MO and eliminating scum D1.


You know you're town? I think not. Consider the following:
Maybe you do know S_S wouldn't bus. Probably he didnt bus as it seems likely you are the last scum. If you're town though, you're wrong, and he did bus, because I also know I'm town, and Marci seems to have been innoed.

Distance died so that town would think my bus theory was wrong. It wasn't wrong though.

Go ahead and dig up the mastina post for the class - mastina admitted she was having a hard time getting into this game and it was one of her worst town games in a while, and that her scumdar is static, etc. I am not going to put stock in her read on you over my own. You'll have to prove that to me on your own.

You didnt claim to track Gamma because there was no kill. If a kill happened, as you pointed out the day before, a tracker result on anyone EXCEPT VFP is a hard inno, because VFP publicly won Ninja.

[ssbm_Kyouko]

Why tf would scum!us track a buddy?

This is explained in the post you quoted. You would Track Gamma to fake an inno on him. It didnt work as you'd planned because of the jailkeep.

Keep rewriting history.

We tracked you.

If you tracked me you saw I did not go anywhere. This is not an inno on me because 2 scum were alive, but combined with the fact I had hitman available from D1, it may as well be an inno. If I were scum I would have used it that night. The time to use it would be to get around the Jailkeeper. Doctors can only stop the kill by guessing the target. The JK can stop the kill by guessing the target, guessing the killer, or even accidentally stop it for the wrong reasons by trying to protect the killer.

Sorry but this explanation is just wifom.

I think you either didn’t know Mastina was jk - I sure as hell didn’t

or if you did somehow realize it, because I’m pretty sure she never claimed it?

Or you didn’t know she’d jk Marci. I was actually surprised

because I expected her to jk me

but it obviously worked out, since it’s pretty obvious Marci was the target.

I think you or Gamma killed Distance because him calling Marci push a “scumclaim” makes sense if he got an actual inno on her. That’s why I don’t believe it’s Marci. I don’t believe scum!SS guilties a buddy. I think that is totally anti-wincon, especially since Gamma was being more strongly tr att than him.

It's not WIFOM. the hard truth of it is that JK is twice as likely to stop a kill as doctor if it targets randomly, meaning hitman should be used against JK. Theres no wifom whatsoever in that argument.

Which is it? You didnt know Marci was JK or you expected her to JK you? Why would you expect to be jailed if it was obvious you won tracker? If you expected to be jailed so you as the tracker would be guarded from a kill, why didnt you holster for the night so you could pretend to have wasted your shot and had a good chance at using your ability the next night?
Answer is, you knew town won JK and expected to get jailed, so you had Gamma do the kill.

If that were the case on Distance, he would not be killed. A Cop inno can be faked by scum on a real townie. If I were scum and picked up that Distance innoed Marci, I would kill Marci, not distance. Distance wouldn't have money left if he bought cop, he also cant be the doc if he won cop (unless you assume that somehow cop and doc were won for 250 ea by the same player on D1 when everyone's wallets are full and cop is the strongest town PR in the setup), so it's statistically more likely he will be protected by the doc.

Again, Distance died because I was pushing him as a busser. Scum would not want the Kitty wagon to be investigated because Gamma was on it.

[ssbm_Kyouko]

Aiming for Marci is just a nullshot (someone fence-sitting regarding VFP, Mastina, you, and I) on someone who has at least some money left because they won GD for 225 and killing her also prevents her from digging Distance and clearing herself by seeing he won cop.

Heck, maybe you even thought that Marci won the JK because she had 275 left

[ssbm_Kyouko]

Again, if I knew he had the cop, I would not have killed him. That's a stupid move, and I'm not stupid. If I'm scum there I just shoot Marci. Why would I want to greenflip him N2 when all of D2 I was pushing a theory that scum was bussing on the Kitty wagon. I would kill a cop with no shots, no money, and no guilty? Get real

[ssbm_Kyouko]

Btw RE: the track:
Since scum, presumably, attempted to outbid me on the jailkeeper, but failed, they would know a town player got the jailkeeper.
If the jailkeeper was used to protect, they would assume that it was on Smoke & Mirrors, the more universal townread and loudest voice, which again is why a watch there is convenient.

If the jailkeeper was used offensively rather than defensively, though? Who would the scum think would be blocked? VFP, the person with the ninja and a universal scumread, or the other scum?

OBVIOUSLY, with the scum not having control of the jailkeeper, they would know that IF the jailkeeper were used offensively, that the jailkeeper would be roleblocking VFP, necessitating the non-ninja to perform the nightkill.

Which means that in all probability, the clear on SSBM is in fact a clear. While it's obviously possible scum, knowing that they didn't get the jailkeeper, chose to holster out of fear of the jailkeeper, them deliberately no-killing guarantees the jailkeeper agency; if the jailkeeper was used offensively on VFP, VFP's a guaranteed elimination; if the jailkeeper was used defensively on town, then the town player is cleared from the jailkeeper; this, regardless of an attempt to kill or not.

In other words: scum

could

have holstered, but they had more reason to take a shot than to not. Meaning that the clear while not absolute, I still trust as being reasonably likely to be correct.

So at this point:

Smoke and Mirrors = marcistar = ssbm >> imaginality >>> Gamma Emerald

>

Something_Smart >>>>>>>> VFP to me.

Not the specific quote I was looking for but it’ll do. This is also why SS is town. Gamma was more tr than he was, so it makes absolutely no sense for him to have guiltied Gamma.

That quote you posted also is flipped town explaining why your result on me is, in all likelihood, an actual clear. Now we know more than she did though, as your result being a clear was predicated on scum!VFP's non-ninja partner performing a kill to dodge the jailkeep.

We know VFP is town now.

Gamma/S_S: knowing there is a no watcher and there is a tracker, the player more TRed by the tracker would try to kill the JK and expect rhe JK to guard the tracker

Gamma/Kyouko: knowing there is a watcher, a tracker, and a Jailkeeper, either I should kill someone unlikely to be watched using strongman, or Gamma should try to kill the Jailkeeper because the tracker TRs him.

Gamma/S&M: knowing there is a Jailkeeper and a watcher, it doesnt matter who performs the kill as long as they aim for the JK so it cant be stopped. Gamma would attempt this kill in case he gets caught by watcher, because Gamma appears to follow S&M, and S&M is more TRed. So S&M has plausible deniability in this case.

[ssbm_Kyouko]

1. Did Imaginality provide any quotes or generalized reasoning for a partnership between me and Gamma? I'd like to address any that are resonating with you as he's no longer around to discuss with

nah theres no quotes in there

2. Can you go into what doesn't seem town about my D5 or any other parts of the game? Again I'd like to address concerns

d5 just seemed like u were trying to push whatevers easiest to convince people on mainly. it seemed like u were keeping ur options open, and not trying to limit those options down at all to find scum. thats what i dont like, and thats what convinced me on u.

3. Can you provide context to this? I'm not sure what it's referring to.

we were talking about if gamma would be scum
i said "he would vote alot quicker if he was town" something like that
he said that someone used that argument against him when the butterfly elim thing was going down
i mentioned how it was u who did that against him.

ttention his slot deserves. Nobody else was keeping their options open enough to see he was scum. I've already posted some quotes but can post more in a dedicated post if you need, to showcase my pushing on Gamma and others' "passive" townreading of him.

he didnt mention ur push on gamma at all tho..?

7. Why did you think I would try to get him miseliminated? I briefly flip-flopped end of D3 I think when CB was eliminated, I remember voting him so he would have to vote CB to self-preserve, and I SRed him on D1 some, but aside from those times, as I recall I thought he was actually trying to solve. I think he Cupcake and I have been the most active about solving in this game.

at that point my thoughts were "brrrng i was wrong somewhere, i dont think kittys partner would lead an elim against them tho" so it went down to process of elimination which made u = scum, so if scum wanted a miselim on imaginality (like he thought it was gonna be)... ur who i think is scum, so u would try to miselim him

D5 is the day S_S guiltied Gamma, so I was keeping options between them open, because we were in mlimlo. Did you mean D4, because I do remember flip flopping a lot on D4. But D4 is when I pushed Gamma. I quoted my push, S&M's reaction to it, and Imaginality's vote on Gamma which immediately follows my case, and put it into a spoiler. You should see soon I think.

Okay, context helps: I think yes that town votes a lot quicker there as the victim of a fake guilty. I used a different argument on Gamma when he voted me on d5 though, that voting me (not voting speed) is just wrong here as there is 100% scum in Gamma and S_S so town!Gamma should only vote S_S.

I did say something like that to Imaginality at the Cupcake deadline on D3, but it is not the same exact thing. Cupcake did not have a guilty on Imaginality. I thought, after seeing Imaginality do that VC that if he were town he should be voting Cupcake, as any unknown flip is better for a town player than their own flip. As it stood, in the VC Imaginality.was.going to die by tiebreak, but if he moved to CB, then CB would have hit the next vote count (I think 3 or 4) before Imaginality if anyone else voted Ima, so I forced him to.vote CB to self-preserve because I was considering CB and Imaginality as a team at that point close to deadline. I was trying to test Imaginality and it was manipulative, but it worked. I got confirmation they weren't teamed, and I came back around to TRing him on D4 when I was floating options and eventually landed on Gamma.

As mentioned, you'll see my D4 Gamma case and Imaginality voting Gamma right after I post it v soon.

Okay so you were wrong somewhere and I was poe scum because kitty's partner wouldn't lead a wagon on them, but as it turns out, kitty's partner did lead a wagon on them, so the poe that pointed to me was based on an assumption that turned out to be incorrect. It sounds like you're saying scum would want to mislim Imaginality, and because I'm scum by poe I would want to mislim him. But if I'm not scum by poe, then someone else could want to mislim him as well,.right? Look at Gamma's and S&M's scumreads: {

VFP, Imaginality

, Kyouko}. They also were pushing to mislim Imaginality.

[ssbm_Kyouko]

Then you lie and try to give Imaginality the impression that we have hitman, so his roleblock can’t clear us. Then right before the day ends, you actually tell the truth and admit you not only have it but have actually had it since day freaking 1!

What possible town motivation could you have to lie about this? NONE

This is not a lie. I have had 1-shot hitman since day 1, nice try at a dumbtell though lol. I explained how you could have bought the 2-shot hitman for 301, bit here it is again:

Gamma buys AD and Tracker and passes the results to you in the scum PT so you can claim them.
You buy Godfather and Hitman so that when Gamma is outed it appears that you can be cleared by a roleblock, which you know Imaginality has if you ADed him N2, because you can see the 500-90=410. It's the same argument as how S_S could have bought hitman, but it's more believable for S_S, because with Watcher, you will know if your partner was ADed before claiming.

It is possible for you to have hitman in your possession, right now. I have demonstrated it to be possible, so it is not, and never was, a lie.

[ssbm_Kyouko]

How did Gamma fool you if you were just partners with him?

Also what is your full bidding history @S&M

[ssbm_Kyouko]

And why did you bid 365 on Cop D1?

[ssbm_Kyouko]

Btw RE: the track:
Since scum, presumably, attempted to outbid me on the jailkeeper, but failed, they would know a town player got the jailkeeper.
If the jailkeeper was used to protect, they would assume that it was on Smoke & Mirrors, the more universal townread and loudest voice, which again is why a watch there is convenient.

If the jailkeeper was used offensively rather than defensively, though? Who would the scum think would be blocked? VFP, the person with the ninja and a universal scumread, or the other scum?

OBVIOUSLY, with the scum not having control of the jailkeeper, they would know that IF the jailkeeper were used offensively, that the jailkeeper would be roleblocking VFP, necessitating the non-ninja to perform the nightkill.

Which means that in all probability, the clear on SSBM is in fact a clear. While it's obviously possible scum, knowing that they didn't get the jailkeeper, chose to holster out of fear of the jailkeeper, them deliberately no-killing guarantees the jailkeeper agency; if the jailkeeper was used offensively on VFP, VFP's a guaranteed elimination; if the jailkeeper was used defensively on town, then the town player is cleared from the jailkeeper; this, regardless of an attempt to kill or not.

In other words: scum

could

have holstered, but they had more reason to take a shot than to not. Meaning that the clear while not absolute, I still trust as being reasonably likely to be correct.

So at this point:

Smoke and Mirrors = marcistar = ssbm >> imaginality >>> Gamma Emerald

>

Something_Smart >>>>>>>> VFP to me.

Not the specific quote I was looking for but it’ll do. This is also why SS is town. Gamma was more tr than he was, so it makes absolutely no sense for him to have guiltied Gamma.

You were more TRed than Gamma is why he guiltied Gamma and not you. You had Gamma perform the kill because of that.

Consider that I'm the last scum: Does Gamma or I perform the kill on the obvious Tracker Mastina? I do, because Gamma is locktowned by S&M who is town in this scenario. Gamma is better positioned to endgame amongst S&M, S_S, Imaginality, and Marci than I am. So if my team was forced to kill tracker mastina, knowing she would not be involved in limlo situations, I would have done the kill so Gamma could endgame.

Consider that S&M is scum: why didn't scum target them on N3 when they had obviously won Tracker? Scum targeted the obvious Tracker on N4 when Mastina won the 2-shot. Why not on N3? Because scum!S&M won the tracker.

[ssbm_Kyouko]

@MOD

votecount 6.0

Smoke and Mirrors (0)
ssbm_Kyouko (2) - Somke And Mirrors - Marcistar
Something_Smart (0)
marcistar (0)

not voting (2) - Something_Smart ssbm_Kyouko

day 6 ends in (expired on 2021-07-18 02:50:39)

i'm fine with granting an extension, i'm bad at timezones, but it looks like 2 more days are required?

Also yes I'd like extension for S_S's VLA, but it would be a long one. If you gave it:

I think S_S gets back around 4:45 PM on Monday the 19th in Central US time.

Current deadline looks like 1:50 AM on the 18th, so a 2 day extension gives him about 9 hours to come in and post. Maybe a 3 day extension instead? If you cant do that or can only do 2 days, we can still no lim if he doesnt show up in time, as I doubt scum kills here. It's effectively the same as an extension imo

[ssbm_Kyouko]

I think hes 1 hr ahead of me.if in New York so he can probably post within those 9 hours in the evening before bed if you did 2 days

[ssbm_Kyouko]

How did Gamma fool you if you were just partners with him?

Also what is your full bidding history @S&M

And why did you bid 365 on Cop D1?

Pooky has been online and posting in multiple games for the last 2 and a half hours since I posted this question. Obviously Nancy is the main poster in this game, but this is just information I need - Pooky should be able, and has had plenty of time to answer. Nancy stopped posting a few minutes before I posted these, but she hides her login times, as does this hydra

[ssbm_Kyouko]

@Marcistar
@S_S

Please take a look. I know I've been posting a lot of walls and it's probably daunting to read it all, but if you read just one of my posts, this is the one that proves S&M is just scum here. A lot of my other posts are conjecture and what-ifs, this is evidence that S&M has been lying about results, which town should never be doing.

There are a lot of long quotes in here but you only need to read what is highlighted in

green

and then my commentary on it below to understand. I left full quotes for context and spoilered it for readability.
tl;dr:
-

S&M has flip-flopped

between claiming "No Result" and "Did not go anywhere" on me
-

S&M has lied at least 4-5 times about their PMs with Gypyx

, claiming that Gypyx told them that if I had visited Marci on the night Marci was jailkept, that S&M's result would have been useless.
-

Gypyx has confirmed publicly

that if S&M tracked me on the night Marci was jailed AND I tried to kill Marci that night, that S&M would have seen me visiting Marci.

Spoiler: S&M's progression on their Tracker result

votecount 3.1

Gamma Emerald (0)
mastina (0)
Smoke and Mirrors (0)
Cupcake Butterfly (1) - ssbm_Kyouko
ssbm_Kyouko (1) - Imaginality
Something_Smart (1) - Marcistar
imaginality (1) - Gamma Emerald
marcistar (0)
VFP (1) - mastina

not voting (4) - Everyone

day 3 ends in (expired on 2021-07-02 02:48:08)

auction

the auctioned abilities are :

1-shot Godfather the top bid at mid point was 499

1-shot Tracker the top bid at mid point was 200

2-shot Ninja the top bid at mid point was 500

1-shot Jailkeeper the top bid at mid point was 150

We should let scum eat the GF bid, since they’re likely putting all of their pennies on Ninja,

so I strongly recommend whomever gets tracker to use it to get an inno, because if scum has ninja than a tracker will just be wasted on them.

Here S&M is talking about using the Tracker to get an inno, and their bid is already on tracker. Maybe Nancy Drew doesn't realize that with 2 scum alive, or if one wins Ninja, that a Tracker result is not an Inno. But if the Hydra has already placed this bid, surely she has consulted Pooky. It sounds as though he is supposed to be a smart guy, so I think he would have realized right away that with Tracker and Ninja up for auction on the same day that Tracker is a useless power. But they bought it anyways, and their plan is to get an inno with it, not a guilty. They should already know this is not possible.

votecount 3.1

Gamma Emerald (0)
mastina (0)
Smoke and Mirrors (0)
Cupcake Butterfly (1) - ssbm_Kyouko
ssbm_Kyouko (1) - Imaginality
Something_Smart (1) - Marcistar
imaginality (1) - Gamma Emerald
marcistar (0)
VFP (1) - mastina

not voting (4) - Everyone

day 3 ends in (expired on 2021-07-02 02:48:08)

auction

the auctioned abilities are :

1-shot Godfather the top bid at mid point was 499

1-shot Tracker the top bid at mid point was 200

2-shot Ninja the top bid at mid point was 500

1-shot Jailkeeper the top bid at mid point was 150

We should let scum eat the GF bid, since they’re likely putting all of their pennies on Ninja, so I strongly recommend whomever gets tracker to use it to get an inno, because if scum has ninja than a tracker will just be wasted on them.

Gamma claimed he is bidding 499 on GF and VFP claimed he is bidding 500 on ninja

That’s very interesting. @Gamma why 499 and not 500?

Well, in that case tracker should work on everyone but VFP.

Now they know VFP has Ninja. They say Tracker works on everyone but VFP, but that's just wrong again. There are still 2 scum alive, so a tracker result on anyone is useless because the other scum can perform the kill. A watcher, however, is able to guilty VFP because VFP admitted to buying Ninja. A watcher watching the dead player that sees nothing happen to the dead player knows the dead player was killed by the ninja. There is no such line of reasoning for a Tracker to get either an inno or a guilty though.

I won the 1x jailkeeper, and I jailkept marcistar last night.

i think we should trust mastina unless theres a cc or anything. i tried digging and it failed, dont see anything else to explain this.

I didn't target anyone.
So either the jailkeeper jailkept scum, or jailkept scum's target, or the doctor protected town, or the scum no-killed.

i don't think its very likely scum no killed, they 100% need to get the number of very trusted townies down to get a shot at winning (and before more people can be thought of in a "near confirmed" way), not killing at this state would be detrimental for them.

mastina

, who do u think vfps partner would be?

gamma emerald, something_smart, vfp <- scums within these, maybe possibly ssbm_kyouko could be, but that seems unlikely to me.

smoke

, who do u think?

imaginality

, who do u think?
(anyone else is welcome to answer as well)

I still think something_smart would be the more likely to flip scum, but im fine with vfp as well.

I tracked Kyouku last night, he didn’t go anywhere.

I didn't go anywhere. Not "no result", and not "Kyouko visited Marcistar."

I just realized there are worlds where scum!S&M can buy both ADs, thirdscum can be just about anyone and they can still afford 200 for tracker, then S&M can announce the tracker result and appear to be town that bought 1-shot AD and Tracker. I dont think this happened, but it could have. So I realize voting based on bids doesnt really make sense. Any scum could be mixing and matching claims to make things appear differently to town trying to solve by numbers.

this is an outright lie


1-shot Auction Detective 300
2-shot Auction Detective 450
Tracker is 200

total is 950

scum start with 800 so its impossible for me to buy both ADs and Tracker

VOTE: Kyouko

@mod, if Kyouku visited Marci, would we have gotten the same result?

Here is the clarifying question: Gypyx asks them to clarify it via PM, and it seems that they do clarify it by PM because they come back later singing a different tune.

yeah I think S_S is probably town here
VOTE: VFP
I wanna know what nancy is thinking in all this but atp this is fine because as I said, VFP's CB vote was the one that bothers me the most

Idk but I still think Mastina, you and SS are town but having doubts again on VFP.

I know we get a no resuts on Kyouku but if he tracked jk’d Marci, would that have nullified our inno?

Idk, anymore.

I think Marci’s town but I suppose it’s possible that no kill could have happened if she’s the onr who made it? Probably tinfoiling though, because I still think she’s town.

The first lie. S&M is now claiming they got a "no result" on me, rather than seeing I didn't go anywhere. This is different than what they said at Day start which is presumably freshly after reading their PM from the mod. Most likely they tracked someone else to PR hunt, or tracked Gamma to claim an inno on him, and wanted the watcher result to back up their claim if Gamma was watched. When no kill happened, they claimed I didn't go anywhere because scum!S&M knows I haven't bought anything that

can

go anywhere, since I announced my 426 bid on Hitman D1, and it was won for 426.

do u remember what the claims for bidding on cop were? i could only find 2 claims but im not sure if theres more

I think we bid 365 and didn’t get it. We spent everything on 1 shot AD=300 + 1 shot tracker=200.

Speaking of, Gypyx just informed me that my “inno” on Kyouku was meaningless if he actually visited you.

I think it’s Kitty/Gamma/Kyouku.

Kyouku could push Gamma because prior to SS guilty, I tr him, so he was never in any danger.

Mastina kill confirms Marci town and probably was the intended NK, so us/SS/Marci=all town.

Gypyx informed them that their result on me was meaningless if I actually visited Marci. Let's break that down in terms that align with the question I asked Gypyx publicly in the thread:

A(S&M) tracks B(Kyouko)
B(Kyouko) kills C(Marcistar)
D(Mastina) jailkeeps C(Marcistar)

Gypyx confirmed publicly that in this situation, A (S&M) should receive "B visited C", or "Kyouko visited Marcistar". He did

not say

that A would get No Result because the target of the kill was jailkept, and yet,

after confirming with the mod via pm

, S&M is claiming that their result on me is meaningless

if I actually visited Marci

. That last part is what's important. They are suggesting that the mod confirmed to them that if they tracked me and I visited a jailkept target, that they would have received "no result", which is what they are now claiming to have received on me. Keep in mind that in Day start they said I didn't go anywhere, not that they tracked me and they got no result.

Gypyx replied to me. I can't quote him but you can all send him the same question I did to confirm if you like.

The question is along the lines of:

what happens in this situation?
X tracks Y
Y kills Z
W jails Z
Does X receive 'no result' or 'Y visits Z' (I actually asked him if 'Y didn't go anywhere' because I didn't go anywhere all game and that is what was on my mind)

And Gypyx told me X would see Y visiting Z. But S&M said I didn't go anywhere/

S&M lied about their soft Inno (not hard because there are still 2 scum alive) on me being an "inno" based on Marci being jailed by Mastina the night S&M saw me go nowhere.

Quick End

I think this is solved

Why does S&M fake a soft inno on you in that scenario?

If I had any doubts on Gamma!scum/SS!town, Kyouku confirmed it for me.

So it seems the reason that Gamma is scum and SS is town, to S&M, follows: I pmed the mod to verify the false claim that S&M made about their question to the mod. Somehow this ties back to Gamma being Scum and S_S being Town. You tell me how that correlates lmao

I have the 1-shot hitman from d1 still. By your own admission you tracked me and saw me go nowhere when Marci has jailed. If I were scum and not on Marci's team I would have used my strongman that night to shoot through jailkeeper.

But yes, I have only spent 426 so scum!me has the money to have bought the 2-shot hitman as well.

Yes but I asked the mod, if that was actually valid if you visited Marci and he said it wasn’t. Iow, my “inno” is null and void if you visited Marci.

I figured when I saw this post, you were planning to NK Imaginality and frame us.

VOTE: Kyouku

And don’t insult our intelligence here. You didn’t use the hitman because you obviously didn’t think you needed it. You’re not clear, the mod confirmed that and SS knows 100% this is my obvtown meta here as did Mastina who had me as her #1 tr.

Doubling down in lying about mod-provided information, and using it to justify voting me today in mlimlo.

If Gamma and VFP both bid these amounts today the scumteam can no longer outbid everyone for the daykill.

This means gamma isn't scum

with

VFP.

Same would apply to the VFP-me scum pairing some people have been mooting. Or me-Gamma for that matter.

S&M, does ssbm's point change your views on me and/or VFP?

The fact that I misunderstood your 90 bid, means you weren’t being hypocritical about wanting town to bid high.

If it isn’t you/VFP than someone has been pocketing me really really good.

Here S&M points out that they are concerned that they have been pocketed if it's not VFP or Imaginality. This could be preparing to inno Gamma with tracker, and if anyone questioned S&M on the Gamma track they could say Gamma might have been pocketing them so they wanted to check him. It makes sense from a town perspective to try to use tracker to catch the more townread one of the scumteam, because if scum knows S&M won tracker by doing the math on AD plus Tracker, they know to send the scum that is in the trackers TRs to do the kill. That would be a town!S&M reasoning that scum!S&M could use to justify the targeting.

I don't understand it.
I was just going to say that SSBM is most likely town, but if they picked the 4 roles then that's a townlock.

I'm also happy to put everyone on the Kitty wagon as town.
Scum looked dis organised or just absent to not move over to me or even try else where.

Gylyx doesn't do a VC on a flip normally I think.

VOTE: MistyxVOTE:

I also don't think Marci is scum here.

I get to enhance 4 roles which makes them 400% more likely (I think this means 5x as likely but the setup may be worded incorrectly) to appear. I enhanced the 1-shot BP and also enhanced the 3 2-shot roles that appeared today. The 1-shot AD came in with it's normal chance, but I wanted it for tomorrow because it only.gives the most recent day of history. Both ADs the same day means unless the winner holds on to a shot they'll be looking at who bought the other AD potentially which is a but of a waste imo. Thought they'd be better staggered because then the second shot would line up with the 1-shot and we'd have 2 detectives looking at toMorrows bids when the player pool is reduced more

Ah, got it.
Thats for confirming. I actually thought by enhance you made it better.

Regardless I think the 4 we got are really strong for this early in the game.

I've only played with Nancy once (it was a Pooky Nora Nancy hydra) and I was Paranoid that they were bussing scum come late game.
I was wrong though and they flipped town.

Outside of that, I have no experience that I at least remember.

I keep going back and forth on this. I want to be super confident on a VFP scumflip but I just can’t. But if Gamma’s right and you actually are Vedith, then we’ve definitely played together before Happy Face.

I just don’t see why Marci kills Distance and who of my trs I could possibly be reading wrong. I guess it’s possible CB could be pocketing me? He did give me that tr pretty fast but he’s not really being scummy either. I’ve seen his scumgame and it didn’t look anything like this.

No concern that Gamma could be pocketing them here. Hmm

votecount 3.1

Gamma Emerald (0)
mastina (0)
Smoke and Mirrors (0)
Cupcake Butterfly (1) - ssbm_Kyouko
ssbm_Kyouko (1) - Imaginality
Something_Smart (1) - Marcistar
imaginality (1) - Gamma Emerald
marcistar (0)
VFP (1) - mastina

not voting (4) - Everyone

day 3 ends in (expired on 2021-07-02 02:48:08)

auction

the auctioned abilities are :

1-shot Godfather the top bid at mid point was 499

1-shot Tracker the top bid at mid point was 200

2-shot Ninja the top bid at mid point was 500

1-shot Jailkeeper the top bid at mid point was 150

We should let scum eat the GF bid, since they’re likely putting all of their pennies on Ninja, so I strongly recommend whomever gets tracker to use it to get an inno, because if scum has ninja than a tracker will just be wasted on them.

Gamma claimed he is bidding 499 on GF and VFP claimed he is bidding 500 on ninja

That’s very interesting. @Gamma why 499 and not 500? Well, in that case tracker should work on everyone but VFP.

I think if there had been a kill that S&M would have claimed they tracked Gamma if you catch my drift. That's why Gamma made a show of buying a role that cant go anywhere.

You’ve got serious chutzpah, I’ll give you that. Why tf would scum!us track a buddy? Please just continue to drive it home that your the last scum. You don’t even need my help.

We tracked YOU. Mod said you didn’t go anywhere but when I asked him if that held up if you visited Marci, he then told me it was essentially meaningless but don’t let me stop you from continuing to insult everyone’s intelligence

. lololol

tripling down on lying about mod provided information. This is after I've started to post my case against S&M, and, like on D2, instead of engaging me in a reasonable way to determine whether my push is in good faith, S&M lies about mod-provided information and shades me, saying I am insulting people's intelligence. Now S&M is back to saying I didn't go anywhere instead of no result. It has been publicly confirmed that if you had asked him what would have happened if I visited Marci while she was jailkept, that you would have seen that I visited Marci. Instead, you say you saw that I didn't go anywhere. So you are clearly lying about your conversations with the mod, if they even happened. Town has 0 reason to do this. You are confirmed scum.

@mod can you confirm this night action resolution in thread since there seems to be some confusion?

A tracks B
B kills C
D jailkeeps C

What result does A receive?
-B didn't go anywhere
-No result

If you tried to visit Marci, that would be our result but since she was jailkept by Mastina, my result on you was meaningless.

I pm’d him and that’s what he told me but anyone who understands how a jk would impact a tracker result could clearly figure that out but that’s what Gypyx told me:

if you visited Marci, our result is useless.

I'm not sure what S&M meant by "that" in "that would be our result" because I posted B didn't go anywhere and No result, both of which are different things that S&M has claimed about me so far, but again, S&M, in no uncertain terms, is saying that they asked Gypyx a question along these lines, probably not with these exact words: "if Kyouko visited Marci on the night I tracked Kyouko, would I have received the same result if Marci was jailkept?" And they are claiming that Gypyx said "no, if Kyouko visited Marci while she was jailkept, your result is meaningless." This is now publicly confirmed to be false. S&M has been lying about this, and town does not have reason to lie about this.

I just realized there are worlds where scum!S&M can buy both ADs, thirdscum can be just about anyone and they can still afford 200 for tracker, then S&M can announce the tracker result and appear to be town that bought 1-shot AD and Tracker. I dont think this happened, but it could have. So I realize voting based on bids doesnt really make sense. Any scum could be mixing and matching claims to make things appear differently to town trying to solve by numbers.

this is an outright lie


1-shot Auction Detective 300
2-shot Auction Detective 450
Tracker is 200

total is 950

scum start with 800 so its impossible for me to buy both ADs and Tracker

VOTE: Kyouko

Mafia players will receive 800Ð.

^


Kyouko just making lies up about me

OK so I think the mastina scum deliberately no-killing theory doesn't hold up. A bit too risky and I don't think mastina needed to take the risk.

So mastina town.
Ssbm I think is likely town because daykill has been pushed back and now is unavailable to scum, and buying hitman openly D1 needed him for future auctions.
Ssbm not being killed suggests to me scum may have been coin/PR hunting and know ssbm isn't a threat on either front.

If ssbm is town his push towards VFP D1 wasn't scum trying to deflect from Kitty. So VFP scum is more possible.

I think it was easy for marci if scum to town read me to get creds for a town flip, but I don't think it's as likely as marci town.

S&M everyone seems sure is town because of Kitty wagon.

VFP, Something_Smart, Gamma.
I can see how VFP scum would want me around as a future mis elim.

I think if VFP is scum it proves his D2 wagon was town as I think scum bussing D2 is too risky for them, auction wise. Conversely VFP town helps narrow down who's scum. (Per ssbm's count, the E-1 wagon on VFP day 2 had cyrus, distance, S&M, mastina, marcistar)

I think there's at most one scum among {VFP, S&M, mastina, marcistar}. Which leaves at least one among {ssbm, Something_Smart, Gamma}

So VFP isn't scum I think Something_Smart and Gamma are. And if VFP is scum I think one or the other of them is.

I just realized there are worlds where scum!S&M can buy both ADs, thirdscum can be just about anyone and

they

can still afford 200 for tracker, then S&M can announce the tracker result and appear to be town that bought 1-shot AD and Tracker. I dont think this happened, but it could have. So I realize voting based on bids doesnt really make sense. Any scum could be mixing and matching claims to make things appear differently to town trying to solve by numbers.

this is an outright lie


1-shot Auction Detective 300
2-shot Auction Detective 450
Tracker is 200

total is 950

scum start with 800 so its impossible for me to buy both ADs and Tracker

VOTE: Kyouko

Isn't the bolded referring to your hypothetical scumbuddy, not you?

I just realized there are worlds where scum!S&M can buy both ADs, thirdscum can be just about anyone and they can still afford 200 for tracker, then S&M can announce the tracker result and appear to be town that bought 1-shot AD and Tracker. I dont think this happened, but it could have. So I realize voting based on bids doesnt really make sense. Any scum could be mixing and matching claims to make things appear differently to town trying to solve by numbers.

this is an outright lie


1-shot Auction Detective 300
2-shot Auction Detective 450
Tracker is 200

total is 950

scum start with 800 so its impossible for me to buy both ADs and Tracker

VOTE: Kyouko

Reread the quoted post, and relax lmao

Oh I see from pronoun usage it is unclear upon reread. By "they" I mean the third scum. I also dont think that is what happened
What I'm saying is that, even with the info we have, it isn't enough to catch any scum by looking at auction prices directly, as they are able to mix and match their purchases if needed to make the numbers line up.

What I'm saying is we need to look at dayplay and see Gamma has been sidelining the whole game. He's not offering anything original, I dont think he's scumhunting so much as he's just following the flow of others' pushes, and it's pretty easy to see it by just reading his ISO.

I also think that Distancr and Marci as kills point towards a player like Gamma and the only other sideliney player like that is S_S. I think S_S makes sense as a partner to Gamma as well - the game just really points that way.

Gamma also shares some of your reads (Imaginality / VFP theory), so you might consider that he's hiding behind you

VOTE: Gamma Emerald

In this case on Gamma directed at S&M, I even point out to them explicitly that Gamma could be hiding behind them. S&M continues posting until deadline but never addresses this point. The next morning, S_S announces a guilty on Gamma. S&M pretty immediately votes Gamma without questioning if it's a fake in LimLo, slipping that she knows Gamma's alignment.

I think it's odd that one of their highest TRs guilties another of their highest TRs (probably top 2 TRs of S&M's left alive at that point in the game) and there is no pause to question which one they were wrong about.

Gamma wasn’t a hider, he flipped goon. Because I trusted S_S, which is why I fought so hard to save him.

Do I seriously need to requote the scummy reactions Gamma had to the guilty. which I pointed out? Or are you also going to pretend that never happened?

Jesus christ are you obtuse? Obviously Gamma isn't a Hider, this is an open setup. It is clear from context that I am saying he could be hiding behind town!you's pushes and reads to look less scummy as your scumreads get flipped as red. I'm saying he could be buddying you, pocketing you, etc.

He was obviously buddying me and I was wrong to not listen to CB on Alisae. I honestly thought Alisae would play a lot better as scum but I honestly can’t see why scum!Gamma would try so hard to push me to vote you for MO if you weren’t his buddy?

What other possible reason would he do that?

If you’re not his buddy, then he should have been fine with me voting for Flea or CB. He also didn’t say anything about it being deadline as a reason either, He hardpushed this and scum!Mastina did something very similar in a game but far less obviously. She tried to get us all to vote for her buddy Pink Ball. The difference was she was a lot more subtle but also, it actually mattered a lot less than in this game.

I also know we’re town.
I don’t believe SS would ever guilty a buddy. I have meta on him, remember?
I believe Distance inno’d Marci and that’s why he died. I also don’t see why Marci would kill Distance.

Mastina would never have scum!me as her #1 tr and has never townlocked me as scum. She said that this is “transparently town!Nancy”. I can dig up the post if need be. I just don’t see how it’s not you, because every single damn thing points to it.

And wrt to your nonsense track Gamma thing, why then didn’t we claim that? As Imaginality pointed out, why wrongly claim an inno on you?

And had I not clarified with Gypyx that that inno was meaningless if you visited jk’d Marci, you might possibly have won this but the jk thing made me doubt that our result was valid, so damn good thing I verified it.

This is another time S&M is doubling down on their lies about mod-provided information regarding their result on me.

Spoiler: The mod quote that proves that S&M is lying

@mod can you confirm this night action resolution in thread since there seems to be some confusion?

A tracks B
B kills C
D jailkeeps C

What result does A receive?
-B didn't go anywhere
-No result

B visited C

A=Smoke & Mirrors
B=Kyouko
C=Marcistar
D=Mastina

[ssbm_Kyouko]

What is your full bidding history S&M?

[ssbm_Kyouko]

I will try to paraphrase what Gypyx told me:

He basically said, that the only way our result that Kyouku didn’t go anywhere is valid - if she visited Marci - is if you had a ninja ability. Is that correct @mod? And since we know that VFP got 2 shot ninja, it means, our result that Kyouku didn’t go anywhere was invalid.

This is saying the only way you could have gotten the result on me that you did get, if I visited Marci, is if I had visited Marci using the Ninja ability. Your result on me (did not go anywhere) is valid, because I did not go anywhere.

[ssbm_Kyouko]

Which means that if I am the last scum, that Gamma is the one that tried to kill Marci that night.

Ask yourselves, if I were scum, wouldn't I have just used my hitman ability to bypass the jailkeeper? Scum did not have hitman available to them the night the JK protected Marci or they would have used it, so I should be clear in that regard.

[ssbm_Kyouko]

Gypyx is confusing me, he said we would have seen you visit jk’d Marci.

UNVOTE:

for now.

It’s definitely not us.

I don’t see why scum!SS guilties Gamma and why did Distance say that voting Marci was a scumclaim?

If I had visited, you would have seen it happen, even if my kill attempt failed. UNLESS I visited with Ninja active, then, if I visited Marci, you would see that I didn't go anywhere. Because we know VFP bought Ninja, your result means I did not go anywhere that Night.

That in and of itself is not a clear on me, because 2 scum were alive at the time, but now we know the second scum was Gamma. Out of Gamma and I, which of us performs the kill if the town!S&M has the Tracker? More likely Gamma, because town!S&M is not likely to track Gamma.

Which means that if I am the last scum, that Gamma is the one that tried to kill Marci that night.

Ask yourselves, if I were scum, wouldn't I have just used my hitman ability to bypass the jailkeeper? Scum did not have hitman available to them the night the JK protected Marci or they would have used it, so I should be clear in that regard.

Wait, didn’t you say you had it since D1?

I have had it since D1. I am town. So scum did not have hitman available the night the JK protected Marci. If I were scum, then I would have had it available, and I would have used it to shoot through JK, because JK is the strongest protective in this setup. It stops kills both by jailing the killer or by jailing the victim.

[ssbm_Kyouko]

I have to go pick up my family from my in-laws house but I'll be back in an hour or two

[ssbm_Kyouko]

Gypyx is confusing me, he said we would have seen you visit jk’d Marci.

UNVOTE:

for now.

It’s definitely not us.

I don’t see why scum!SS guilties Gamma and why did Distance say that voting Marci was a scumclaim?

If I had visited, you would have seen it happen, even if my kill attempt failed. UNLESS I visited with Ninja active, then, if I visited Marci, you would see that I didn't go anywhere. Because we know VFP bought Ninja, your result means I did not go anywhere that Night.

That in and of itself is not a clear on me, because 2 scum were alive at the time, but now we know the second scum was Gamma. Out of Gamma and I, which of us performs the kill if the town!S&M has the Tracker? More likely Gamma, because town!S&M is not likely to track Gamma.

Which means that if I am the last scum, that Gamma is the one that tried to kill Marci that night.

Ask yourselves, if I were scum, wouldn't I have just used my hitman ability to bypass the jailkeeper? Scum did not have hitman available to them the night the JK protected Marci or they would have used it, so I should be clear in that regard.

Wait, didn’t you say you had it since D1?

I have had it since D1. I am town. So scum did not have hitman available the night the JK protected Marci. If I were scum, then I would have had it available, and I would have used it to shoot through JK, because JK is the strongest protective in this setup. It stops kills both by jailing the killer or by jailing the victim.

Well who is scum then because it 100% isn’t us, so sell me on Marci, SS but I strongly believe they have better reasons for being town than you.

Explain why Distance was killed if he didn’t inno Marci or why SS guilties Gamma?

Again, no one knew Mastina had jk or would use it on Marci, so this isn’t clearing.

I have theorized on why Distance was killed. I was pushing the theory that the D1 wagon on Kitty was a bus, so when scum killed Distance, it shows everyone else that the wagon was town-led and discredits the idea that there was a bus D1. Gamma has motive to kill Distance, because it takes suspicion away from the Kitty wagon.

This is also a.motive for you, but if you're town, you can still admit that Gamma does have reason to kill Distance to take pressure off of the Kitty wagon coming from me.

I do think that Distance innoed Marci, but I dont think that's why he died.

Also want to say that who has the JK does not matter. All that matters is if I'm scum, I know town won it, because scum didnt win it. I wouldn't be using hitman to specifically shoot through a protect on Marci, but because the Jailkeeper could stop a kill in 2 ways instead of 1

If you are town, you saw my case on Gamma. Regarding him sidelining as me vs you and mastina vs VFP dominate the thread with fighting. We've seen I was right about that. When you read my case and think about the whole game, I think it's clear that I have actually picked up on scummy behavior of Gamma's and that it's not a bus. That only leaves S_S, who I also cited as being a sideliney player. Another reason why you dont die as tracker, but mastina does, is that you had both Gamma and S_S TRed. Neither of them suspects you.

Basically if you are town, last scum has to be S_S as it seems Marci was innoed by Distance. What reason do you have to TR him?

[ssbm_Kyouko]

It's still plurality until deadline, even if all 3 of you vote me, you'd all have to quick end anyways. I'm not saying S_S is scum because he did this, as he obviously has something going on irl that is putting him on vla, but as scum here, S_S is conveniently able to sideline while conftown (via Distance inno) Marci chooses.between us, whi have been at each others throats most of the game. It's a no lose situation for him, and he doesnt have to explain his vote.

[ssbm_Kyouko]

Why to guilty gamma: look at the end of the day before S_S guiltied Gamma. I was closing in on Gamma, and Imaginality was following. I think Gamma was going to be the lim that day even if he wasn't guiltied.

Problem is, it seems likely that Imaginality roleblocked S_S, which means if S_S is scum, he has hitman, and S_S and Gamma swapped claims. That would be really risky to do, which is why I'm sort of PoE'ed into voting you here. And I think you are also PoE'd to vote me if you're town.

It does seem risky to switch claims... but maybe not as risky as I originally thought. Scum!S_S knows I am town. They know I will try to.avoid boosting the scum powers, but if they listened to what I said about powers slipping through the last day, they may have been willing to gamble on dayvig or hitman getting through and going for a play like this. Watcher is the only role that can safely swap claims, because they can watch their partner to make sure they were not auction detectived, and they can get away with it because you did not suspect them, so you would not track them.

Also remember Misty's day 1. She sounds dejected to have rolled scum. "I feel the setup can be won by poe" and "that's going to be my excuse anyway" - what if she is frustrated to have rolled scum already, and then sees.Gamma bussing Kitty. Scum!Misty does not want Kitty to die and starts a counter wagon on VFP. I jump on with her and try to convince Gamma to switch, but he persists in bussing. Misty replaces out - possibly because she is frustrated that I gave Gamma an out and he still bussed Kitty.

[ssbm_Kyouko]

hi gamma

how much have you been following

i think gamma and kyouko are town

I think the strategy for them from the getgo was just to buddy me.

HEAL: kyouko

not having a great night probably won’t be around until tomorrow

Misty also votes me for MO, like Gamma

Mistyx who are you scumreading rn?

no one yet

i feel like this setup can be won by PoE anyway

at least that’s gonna be my excuse

This comes after this little interaction: I voice suspicion about Misty's posting. Misty replies in kind of a weak way, and then Gamma.tries to throw her a bone. I think he sees me catching on to his partner who is kinda not contributing and he tries to get her to contribute.

I like reading Misty's posts at surface level but when I think about them I understand nothing

all of my posts have either 3 levels or 0 levels of thought put into them and even i can rarely tell which

Mistyx who are you scumreading rn?

249 might just be Gamma trying to give the appearance of solving, but the timing is suspicious. He doesn't need to buddy Misty if hes going to be buddying me as MO

[ssbm_Kyouko]

The way I see it, conceivably Gamma could be sheeping you, as he almost always is following you. But you so adamantly TRed him all game and I dont feel like you ever provided sufficient reason to. Misty and Gamma look like partners for sure though, and I think my interpretation of Misty's gameplay makes a lot of sense. Scum that is disappointed to have rolled scum, and frustrated that her partner is bussing on D1. So frustrated she replaces out.

[ssbm_Kyouko]

I also still need your full bidding history, it's suspicious you still haven't shared it

[ssbm_Kyouko]

I'm going to VOTE: no elimination for now,

because if S_S is scum and comes back and decides on one of us if we both have 1 vote, we won't be able to force a no elim with just 2 players anymore
If S_S is town and he needs more time he can also vote no elim so we get longer to discuss. I doubt either of you or S_S kill toNight if scum, so I think it's safe.

Another thing I thought of before bed regarding scum!S_S: If you are in Gamma's shoes and S_S is town, don't you just vote him and try to take him down before you? If you're really guiltied as scum, that is the play like 99% of the time, to try to convince town to eliminate the PR that guiltied you first, so that your team doesn't have to kill the PR. In this case, scum doesn't need to kill S_S if he is town because his Watcher shots are used up. But if you're being bussed, you don't want your teammate to get killed, especially if you are already SRed, because maybe the player that originally SRed Gamma (me) doesn't drop it afterward and they both end up going down. The way Gamma handled the guilty, it is possible he didn't want S_S to be eliminated, is what I'm saying.

[ssbm_Kyouko]

Why to guilty gamma: look at the end of the day before S_S guiltied Gamma. I was closing in on Gamma, and Imaginality was following. I think Gamma was going to be the lim that day even if he wasn't guiltied.

Problem is, it seems likely that Imaginality roleblocked S_S, which means if S_S is scum, he has hitman, and S_S and Gamma swapped claims. That would be really risky to do, which is why I'm sort of PoE'ed into voting you here. And I think you are also PoE'd to vote me if you're town.

It does seem risky to switch claims... but maybe not as risky as I originally thought. Scum!S_S knows I am town. They know I will try to.avoid boosting the scum powers, but if they listened to what I said about powers slipping through the last day, they may have been willing to gamble on dayvig or hitman getting through and going for a play like this. Watcher is the only role that can safely swap claims, because they can watch their partner to make sure they were not auction detectived, and they can get away with it because you did not suspect them, so you would not track them.

Also remember Misty's day 1. She sounds dejected to have rolled scum. "I feel the setup can be won by poe" and "that's going to be my excuse anyway" - what if she is frustrated to have rolled scum already, and then sees.Gamma bussing Kitty. Scum!Misty does not want Kitty to die and starts a counter wagon on VFP. I jump on with her and try to convince Gamma to switch, but he persists in bussing. Misty replaces out - possibly because she is frustrated that I gave Gamma an out and he still bussed Kitty.

I thought you had hitman or do you mean 2 shot?

I guess it’s possible that the watcher claim was fake.

That also has been bugging me. Why does jk!Mastina die > 2 shot watcher!SS? The correct play for scum is to always kill an invest before a jk.

Another thing is that Gamma would 100% tell you pocket me. Gamma KNOWS about my meta of being extremely hard to miselim.

I had the 1-shot hitman, bought for 426 on D1.

I'm talking about S_S can have the 2-shot hitman that was bought for 301 if S_S bought Godfather and 2-Shot Hitman, but claimed he bought Watcher, while Gamma bought Watcher and something else -

Maybe Gamma tried to buy JK for 300 and that's why JK was obscured actually. It's been bothering me why JK was obscured because 4 town!players could afford to outbid the mid-day bid that mastina made - mastina, Marci, S_S, and CB - CB was not around so you can strike him, but S_S scum still has to guess between mastina and marci. If Gamma were trying to buy it for 300 though it might be suspicious if town saw the amount it sold for and looked for massclaim info. If nobody claimed it, it would point to the 500 Watcher or 500 Ninja bid as scum because 500+300=800. Mastina probably spent 300 for JK though, because we saw that the next day she won 2-shot Tracker for 200. I bet mastina placed her 300 bid before Gamma did.

Another reason to kill town!marcistar: if she holsters gravedigger for the next dead scum, she can confirm which powers they died with, and guilty S_S if they swapped their claims. hitman!S_S can kill Marci in this case, but they didn't know hitman was going to be sold at the time they tried to kill Marci. They shot at her the night that followed her Gravedigger claim.

[ssbm_Kyouko]

marcis town
like
always town

dont bother pushing her ill treat that as a scumclaim

This really does sound like he could have gotten an inno on her.

I think 100% this is an inno on Marci. Another reason she may have been shot at on top of having Gravedigger is that someone else besides scum!S_S may have picked up on the distance crumb at some point, then Marci's 2nd Gravedigger shot, if used on scum, would be likely to be believed. If S_S and Gamma were swapping claims, Marci is actually the most dangerous PR for them, because Gamma can Watch S_S to confirm that S_S was not auction detectived before they swap claims.

But buying Watcher to guilty your partner later for towncred comes crumbling down on you if a gravedigger reveals your dead partner doesn't have the roles they said they bought, or worse, that your dead partner has the role you said you bought.

[ssbm_Kyouko]

Fwiw, Distance might have been softing an inno on marci.

That obviously would put us in an awkward position if marci reports that Distance had the cop.

Could that possibly be why Marci was targeted? To prevent her from revealing Distance had cop?

Why would that put us in an “awkward position”?

It's awkward because if marci is scum and she is the object of Distance's inno crumb, she is the one confirming the inno on herself. If I had gravedigger and dug Distance, there would be no doubt that Marci is inno - but scum!Marci can always be falsely confirming herself.

So this is S_S spotting the inno crumb, but also not wanting us to trust it 100%. Not necessarily something that town has no reason to do, because you have to be cautious as town, but scum!S_S would definitely prefer if we didn't clear Marci.

[ssbm_Kyouko]

I also still need your full bidding history, it's suspicious you still haven't shared it

I have but not in one post. It’s all in our ISO.

D1, we bid 365 on cop, didn’t get it.
D2, bid 300 on AD, we got the one shot.
D3, bid the remaining 200 on one shot tracker.

That’s it because we ran out of money.

Okay thanks, I was wondering if there were any other bids on D1 or D2 that you made, but did not win. I did have all that info already.

Why did you bid 365 on Cop though? The mid-day was 125, so I thought maybe you made a bid on a second power for 135, and put the rest on Cop, but that doesn't seem to be the case. Surely you also saw Imaginality's D1 post about bidding at least 400 on roles so that scum cannot outbid us later if they do it now. What bugs me about 365 on cop is 2 things:

1. scum!S&M bidding 365 is left with 435 for later days. 435 is approximately what the rest of town would be bidding on powers if following town!Imaginality's strategy, so it is a good amount to be left with if you're scum.
2. The leading mid-day bid on 2-shot AD was 365. I'm not sure who placed that bid, but knowing that you later claimed to have made a 365 bid on D1 makes me wonder if it was actually you that was leading mid-day with 365, which would not be possible with 500 dogecoin, because you won 1-shot for 300.

So, is there any reasoning you had for bidding 365? How did you and pooky arrive at that number?

[ssbm_Kyouko]

btw last time market place was done town lost. i joind hoping i could change that.

Actually Alisae was the last to run it and it was a town win

Damn, I remembered reading this and was hoping someone else posted it. I found the game Gamma is referring to eventually, and the title of the topic does not contain owners market blitz, it's like, Furret's bizarre adventure, part II, or something like that. Very difficult to find and imo if someone else had posted this then for sure it was a slip they were in the same PT as Alisae, and had info from er about the last time ey ran the setup.

[ssbm_Kyouko]

I also still need your full bidding history, it's suspicious you still haven't shared it

I have but not in one post. It’s all in our ISO.

D1, we bid 365 on cop, didn’t get it.
D2, bid 300 on AD, we got the one shot.
D3, bid the remaining 200 on one shot tracker.

That’s it because we ran out of money.

Okay thanks, I was wondering if there were any other bids on D1 or D2 that you made, but did not win. I did have all that info already.

Why did you bid 365 on Cop though? The mid-day was 125, so I thought maybe you made a bid on a second power for 135, and put the rest on Cop, but that doesn't seem to be the case. Surely you also saw Imaginality's D1 post about bidding at least 400 on roles so that scum cannot outbid us later if they do it now. What bugs me about 365 on cop is 2 things:

1. scum!S&M bidding 365 is left with 435 for later days. 435 is approximately what the rest of town would be bidding on powers if following town!Imaginality's strategy, so it is a good amount to be left with if you're scum.
2. The leading mid-day bid on 2-shot AD was 365. I'm not sure who placed that bid, but knowing that you later claimed to have made a 365 bid on D1 makes me wonder if it was actually you that was leading mid-day with 365, which would not be possible with 500 dogecoin, because you won 1-shot for 300.

So, is there any reasoning you had for bidding 365? How did you and pooky arrive at that number?

I have no idea, he just posted that in our hydra PT.

It’s not us and it’s obviously not Marci, so maybe no elim is optimal?

You know that Imaginality confirmed our one shot AD and now you also know we did track you. I was just really confused by Gypyx’s answer. I’m now clear you didn’t go anywhere.

Pooky just clarified for me on Discord that jk was only 1 shot, so she was probably killed for tracker and she was likely tracking either SS or Gamma based on her reads.

She locktowned me and Marci and wasn’t suspicious of you.

If Pooky does recall where 365 came from, let me know

I think scum will no kill, maybe they kill Marci, but I do think no elim is good for the day phase extension for rereads

And yes I know your AD and tracker results are real, but technically, like S_S, your claims could have been swapped with Gamma's. I dont think that's the case though - if you are scum, Gamma died with Hitman

I do agree on tracker reasoning on Mastina, though I think it didnt really matter. Regardless of her reads she would die because it's a known PR and it was likely there was no protective around to save her. I think as of the night she died, only town player that could have had doctor was Marci. Maybe that's why Marci was aimed at? Scum maybe thought 225+250 is close to 500, maybe marci won doc and didnt want to give it away by bidding 250 on GD?

[ssbm_Kyouko]

But if you are having doubts on my slot then you should put those to rest first because right now I can't tell if you're interrogating me or trying to work with me

It has to be both in limlo, otherwise the decision is already made with Marci being clear >_>

Also regarding 1744, you didnt replace in late at all, it was early D2, and I dont like that you seem to be backtracking on cop!Distance/conftown!Marci

[ssbm_Kyouko]

And for me to be scum here would require me to do some really dumb things and get lucky. I'd have to be planning a swap with Gamma from very early on, with multiple auction detectives going on and no tangible benefit unless very specific things happen on D3 and D4.

It’s not us, I believe Distance did get an inno on Marci, so it’s either you or Kyouku but certain things aren’t making sense to me. Gamma’s no dummy. In what world does scum think watcher wouldn’t watch Mastina but he visits her regardless. And based on her reads, Mastina was very like tracking either you or Gamma. She was never going track me or Marci and she wasn’t sr Kyouku.

Scum!you shoots S_S actually I think... gotta reread mastina to be sure I'm not confusing your read on her with her read on you, but I think you're right about that

[ssbm_Kyouko]

Except for the fact that we have a winning 1 shot cop bid unaccounted for and calling a push on Marci a “scumclaim” is extremely strong just based upon a read and add to that, that he was the NK - I think it likely scum killed him thinking he had cop.

and

he makes Gamma look more likely town because many people were saying Kitty wagon was all town. Me and CB were the only ones I remember considering the Kitty wagon could have been a bus.

Pedit: I think it's weird to point it out as town if you don't put stock into it originally. I remember feeling on rereading you that it felt like you wanted to contribute something by pointing it out, but at the same time didnt want Marci absolutely cleared by it.

[ssbm_Kyouko]

Oh nm, I misread this. If Distance is town and got a cop inno on Marci, he was clearly softing it. Did you not interpret it that way?

I mean, I was the first to point out that IF Distance had the cop, they were clearly softing an inno on marci. I certainly agree with that.

As I said before, I'm not willing to accept that Distance had the cop 100%, but I do agree that they're the most likely person to have had it. I do also agree that marci probably wouldn't kill her biggest cheerleader and I haven't forgotten that mastina also locked her as town and also died.

In fact, marci probably wasn't getting tracked by mastina, and it was public that mastina had won the tracker, so it makes a lot more sense for marci to carry out the kill on me and if Gamma gets tracked then it looks good for him.

Numbers say unless S&M is scum that won both ADs that cop was in Distance, Flea, CB, iirc. I can double check my notes in the morning. At this point I think Cyrus won 2-shot AD the day he was limmed, or CB won it and then flaked

[ssbm_Kyouko]

Actually I feel quite strongly that scum bought 2-shot AD and as I wrote it out, only mastina and marci can afford that.

I'll let you in on a secret: the $200 mid-day bid on tracker?

That's me.

I spent less than 301 on the jailkeep yesterday so I have at least 200 available today. I spent more than 200 but less than 301 so have at least 200 left, somewhere in the range of 201-299.

Reading mastina now to check her reads, but this post here tells me that scum tried to outbid mastina on tracker using 300 because they believed all she had was 299. Scum could have obscured tracker if they had the money to spend a lot on it to guarantee it. Imo gamma had watcher and 300 left and S_S had 499 in GF already and needed to have the 301 left for the plan to frame Gamma as having Hitman.

Imagine this: Gamma buys Watcher, just to takeaway from town, maybe to claim towncred with it later. But then they find out that Imaginality has and has holstered roleblocker. Suddenly, it becomes a viable option to swap claims on us and fake the inno on yourself by secretly acquiring hitman and getting roleblocked. Scum wanted us to think Gamma won Hitman. If S_S is scum, we didnt need to know that, as S_S was going to guilty his partner anyways. If S&M was scum, they could have killed watcher!S_S and likely not gotten tracked by mastina.

Idk if the timeline is right as I dont remember when Imaginality claimed to still have a holstered shot - I know it came out on D3 that he had won roleblocker.

[ssbm_Kyouko]

Also ftr I read some of Marci's old games that Distance claims he read, and I think his read on her was forged. I draw the opposite conclusion he did by reading, so I think it was just an excuse to inno her because he got the cop inno and maybe expected to die, or wanted to crumb early so he could claim with a crumb in xlo situation. Or have a crumb to cc with if scum tried to fakeclaim cop in late game.

[ssbm_Kyouko]

Also the only other town player that spent all their nuggies in one place was VFP and possibly Distance, and publicly buying Ninja is a huge takeaway from scum, because it makes Tracker and Watcher infallible. I think 500 on watcher was done to look town, but that most of town didnt want to blow their load in one place. Just look at the auction history that we know of. Scum still has 300 more to use on a scum power in secret later on though.

[ssbm_Kyouko]

So they dont mind using everything, but town spends over 400 and tries to save scraps for another power later on down the line

[ssbm_Kyouko]

I don’t have the kinds of interactions with a buddy that I had with Kitty. I don’t understand how anyone in the playerlist reading those interactions could possibly think they’re SvS.

I mean, yes, that too--it's not just the Pooky half the townread comes from. You're very obviously town by play here, too, Nancy, but in my opinion a 100% guaranteed to be accurate to the point of being a borderline trust tell (it's technically not one but is very close to being one with how damn strong a tell it is) for Pooky's meta is better, harder evidence of your slot being town than you being town.

But yes, it's both heads being town for separate reasons, rather than just one.

If she were lost or had little input, why are so many slots conftown to her?

Again, the two are not mutually exclusive as you have said them to be.

Why would she focus on a scumread that is already universally suspected (VFP) without really being in contact with VFP to deduce an alignment directly?

I'll be blunt.

I didn't read the end of D1.

I didn't even look at the end of D1 wagon aside from seeing the four votes on scum--I legit didn't know there were votes on VFP at all until well after D2 had started and people asked me about VFP vs the scum.

I had zero awareness of VFP suspicion.

I also didn't give a damn.

Because I have my own, individually generated, separate, reasons for believing VFP is scum, generated from basic premises and the logical conclusions to be reached from them.

The D1 wagon on scum went through with only four votes. That makes the players on the wagon much much much less likely to be scum. There's ways for the players on the wagon to be scum--intent to distance not realizing plurality blitz deadlines mean the distancing was lethal (first two votes), or deliberately deciding to bus for the towncred (last two votes). But more likely is just that the votes were town.

Mistyx is both a player whose contributions looked town to me, and whose replacement has also looked town to me, and whose slot has overall been highly town, with the players townreading the slot also being ones I by and large trust, with them townreading the slot for reasons either similar to mine or different but positively augmenting mine. Even were I to doubt my own read there, trusting their reads makes me trust them to be town.

ssbm is similarly a player whose contributions look town to me, their mechanical choice N1 was incredibly pro-town, and who others have thought to be town for fairly good, compelling reasons.

While I know that objectively I fit the profile for scum fairly well (I would consider Flea a threat and could make that kill N1; I did not realize this game had plurality and didn't remember it was a blitz game; I wasn't on the D1 scum wagon), I obviously know that I am town and that in spite of the objective reasons it could be me, know that it isn't me.

Which limits the pool down to, per cyrus's death, three names: {VFP, Cupcake Butterfly, marcistar}.

In those three names, VFP seems by far the most likely to be scum just by gamestate and by the N1 kill on Flea.

Given marcistar doesn't look like scum and that you do, that leads to the conclusion of VFP + Cupcake Butterfly.

Hot take: Smoke and Mirrors vs ssbm is tvt.

Doesn't seem like an especially hot take to me, but why?

Well Smoke and Mirrors is clearly town here because this is transparently Nancy's towngame through and through. It's painfully obviously Nancy's town meta, with every marker which that entails, beyond her ability to fake it as scum. Even were she having the scum performance of her life, I meant it when I said that the fact that the slot was voting scum on D1 and contains Pooky means that the slot is 100% guaranteed locktown. It IS literally a nearly 20-year-old tell for Pooky that is borderline trust tell. Pooky's relative absence from the game be damned, he's not letting a tell that old randomly be broken. He's not flaked from the hydra altogether, per Nancy and also per common sense. (If Pooky

were

100% completely and entirely out of the game I would expect Nancy to replace in solo or replace her hydra with a different hydra to get a different partner.)

ssbm is also someone there's a lot of reasons for me to think is town, but beyond those, ssbm vs Smoke+Mirrors just has literally every single classical marker of a TvT fight. It screams, bleeds, TvT to its very core at every stage.

He's town is why. He was the alternative to Kitty.

Why can't the two top wagons be S/S?

My thoughts exactly. There's nothing in how the game has played out which says that VFP was a scumdriven counterwagon to the towndriven wagon on scum. And for that matter, nothing but paranoia about VFP's L-1 wagon on D2 having scum there, when multiple members of the VFP wagon on D2 are town with a high degree of certainty. cyrus? Flipped town. Distance? Flipped town. Smoke and Mirrors? 100% conftown to me. me? Also conftown to me. marcistar? Highly highly likely to be town.

The L-1 wagon on VFP was in fact in high probablity? All town

.

The only possible scum there is marcistar who Distance, the nightkill, hard-vouched as being town, a read I am inclined to sheep.

I realize that others don't have the advantage of conftowning me so that objectively I could be scum on the VFP wagon--but from my point of view the wagon is as close to confirmed all-town as it can be without being confirmed as all town.

So yeah, mastina was hard hard locktowning S&M... I think if S&M and Gamma were scum, S&M would have just killed S_S and tried to mislim me in 6 player limlo. S_S fits with my.theory that scum coasted on the outskirts of 2 TvTs this game, and I expected town!S_S to vote S&M or no elim after reading our D6, but certainly not me. It feels the same as the Gamma votes on me - that they dont have their own case and is piggybacking off of TvT me vs S&M.

I'll stay on no lim for now so no shenanigans happen with tiebreakers, but my mind is made up I think. If Marci and S&M agree now, I'm down to vote him before deadline, otherwise we can continue discussion tomorrow.

[ssbm_Kyouko]

I think it's a coincidence that 365 appeared in 2 places, but I believe it because 365 is the number of days in a year, a number ingrained in everyone's head. I have had this opinion from the moment I noticed 365, but didnt want to hand scum!S&M the out

[ssbm_Kyouko]

Because I think the reasoning has never been there for you to TR them unless it is based on our fight being TvT, in which case i am also town in your eyes, and that I make a compelling case for scum!S&M, but they dont do the same for scum!me.

Why do you think I'm scum?
(Going to bed soon)

[ssbm_Kyouko]

What do you mean the reasoning has never been there? I summed it up in 1614.

I think you're scum because I am confident S&M is town and they are confident marci is town (and I mostly agree with their reasoning).

POE isn't enough today, if you were going to vote me for POE reasons and you were town you would have done it at daystart. As scum you'd be afraid to move too early.

S&M's reason to think Marci is town is the cop crumb that you posted. And just moments ago you were saying you don't buy into that crumb necessarily. So now when it is convenient for your POE you do?

Nancy tends to play pretty agenda-based when she's scum and she's not afraid to get into shitfights with people.

You dont think the Distance NK is an agenda-driven kill that discredits my double bus theory? Yoi dont think that what I and S&M have been doing most of toDay and all of D2 was shitfighting? I read your reasoning to TR Nancy for not doing what scum!Nancy does, but her play this game fits with your own description of scum!Nancy's meta. I think your TR on her is faked and your/Gamma's long term plan was to tow townblock with the S&M hydra and use Nancy's loud voice as cover so you didnt have to do any of your own mislimming

[ssbm_Kyouko]

Going to bed

[ssbm_Kyouko]

Progression is a stretch - you've changed your stance, yes, but it seems like it's only because you've been forced to. No new information or interpretation of information has come out - but you're clearing her now because S&M is. It doesn't look like a progression, but a flip-flop

[ssbm_Kyouko]

I will also VOTE: S_S seeing S&M/Marci both go that way, as I said I would, but I see deadline is gone already, so idk if it will count for toDay

[ssbm_Kyouko]

How do we know you have watcher and not 2 shot hitman?

What would I have instead of watcher? 2 shot AD? Why wouldn't I just claim that? If I wanted to call Gamma guilty I could just say he drafted hitman directly, that would be so much simpler and there's no reason to lie if I don't have to.

Or do you think I just have nothing and spent no money for the first 3 days?

How could town!you possibly know if Gamma drafted hitman and since no hitman was apparently needed to kill Mastina, how is this even relevant?

@mod, what were the final bids on both 2 shot AD, 2 shot hitman and watcher?

450, 301, 500, respectively iirc

[ssbm_Kyouko]

Like if you want to talk about things I would or wouldn't do as whatever alignment

Why do I spend 499 on godfather when I know the cop is dead and then get my partner to claim it (opening us BOTH up to AD)? In what world is THAT a smart play? I'm better than that as scum.

scum!Watcher can swap claims with partner easier than others because Watcher can see if partner was AD'ed

Not sure when you claimed watcher, I think it wasn't claimed until D4 or something, but by the time a couple of other claims were out it was clear that only Cyrus, Distance, or scum could have bought 2-shot AD, and Cyrus and Distance were for sure dead when you claimed, because you definitely didn't claim the watcher bid the same day it was sold, and they were dead D2 and N2.

[ssbm_Kyouko]

Like if you want to talk about things I would or wouldn't do as whatever alignment

Why do I spend 499 on godfather when I know the cop is dead and then get my partner to claim it (opening us BOTH up to AD)? In what world is THAT a smart play? I'm better than that as scum.

It was Gamma and it looked like he was maybe hoping town spends 500 on it, because we know he claimed that.

I had the 1 shot and already used it on Imaginality. Maybe Kyouku is right then and you actually have the 2 shot then because no one so far has claimed it?

No, the 2-shot is dead with either Distance or Cyrus, or scum!you or scum!marci have it - both of which are impossible in scum!S_S pov, so scum!S_S knows 2-shot AD is dead and 1-shot AD is used by the time he claims Watcher, meaning it could easily have been Gamma that had Watcher and tried to buy JK for 300

[ssbm_Kyouko]

It was Gamma and it looked like he was maybe hoping town spends 500 on it, because we know he claimed that.

Right okay, if Gamma himself spent 499 on GF, then we didn't swap roles. It follows that I was the one who got watcher for 500, and therefore I didn't get hitman for 301, and therefore I couldn't have killed last night because I was roleblocked.

Does that all make sense??

But no one has claimed 2 shot hitman. I know we don’t have it. What does you spending 500 on have to do with Gamma spending 499 on GF?

It looks to me like Gamma wanted us to doubt that Distance had cop.

Unfortunately we have no idea who Imaginality rb’d last night because Kyouku claimed 1 shot hitman. so he could have rb’d anyone.

Marci claimed that Imaginality told her in their hood that he was going to roleblock S_S last night. unless Marci is scum, S_S was roleblocked last night. Why does scum!Marci tell us who was roleblocked? scum!Marci can just lie and say she was not neighborized, and we all can go along thinking maybe Imaginality chose not to use it, or we can all think he must have neighborized our top SR and our SR is lying about not being neighborized, etc.

[ssbm_Kyouko]

soo like im having doubts again aa

lmk if you want to no elim

[ssbm_Kyouko]

But no one has claimed 2 shot hitman. I know we don’t have it. What does you spending 500 on have to do with Gamma spending 499 on GF?

Well, it was established that since I was RB'd last night, the only way I can be scum is if I swapped claims with Gamma so I would have enough to afford hitman. So that would require Gamma actually buying the watcher and me actually buying the godfather, so I would have 301 left. If you don't think that's what happened, then I can't be scum.

Imaginality said he would do that because he thought you were the only one who didn’t have hitman but then Kyouku claimed it, so we don’t know for sure who he rb’d.

I am like 99% sure Imaginality never forgot I had 1-shot Hitman since D1. He doesn't seem the type to forget something like that, especially when his role is countered by Hitman. I think he even mentioned he PMed the mod specifically to ask if RB could stop hitman, mod confirmed it could not, and he expressed it would do no good to RB me, because it can't clear me.

If he had somehow forgotten, he wouldn't have RBed me after I claimed it for sure, because RB can't clear someone who can afford to have bought hitman. Not only did I buy it D1 publicly, but scum!me would have had 374 shekels to spend on 2-Shot Hitman if I'd already used my 1-shot

[ssbm_Kyouko]

On N3 we did not know for sure the cop was dead, I don't think?

Scum probably had enough info by N3 to know the Cop was dead, scum!you would for sure because Watcher was one of the only unclaimed bids around then, so if you or Gamma bought it, your team had enough pieces to deduce that only Flea, Distance, or CB could have won cop given town!S&M claiemd to have failed to win it for 365 in 1060 on D3. So your scumteam knows S&M is town and is porbably telling truth and that Cop sold for at least 366, so any town that had more than 134 to bid with could not have Cop.

Maybe mastina could have had it from your scum pov, but I think she outright claimed that she tried and failed to get Cop *checks notes* in 487 on D2.

So scum!you does know cop is dead by N3. I think town!you also has enough info to know they are dead by N3.

[ssbm_Kyouko]

Like it’s scum suicide to kill Mastina with a town watcher who likely catches you.

This is just a suicide if you're Gamma's partner, and can't be avoided as otherwise town!S_S catches you instead of Gamma if you kill.

If S_S is Gamma's partner though, probably S_S is actually the one that killed mastina, using one of his 2 shots of Hitman, in case Imaginality chose to use his RB early, before 1 scum was all that was left.

[ssbm_Kyouko]

I’m just having real trouble buying that Gamma kills Mastina knowing town!SS still has another watcher. I don’t see how Gamma wouldn’t expect to be caught?

Mastina claimed tracker and sr both SS and Gamma.

the bid for 2 shot hitman wasnt concealed, so i think gamma was expecting to be caught by the numbers so maybe they werent worried about being caught out in the kill..?

Nothing was concealed though, because scum wanted us to see what it sold for. If it was concealed, we might be thinking it sold for 300 which points to S_S who bought Watcher, right? Scum wanted us to know it sold for 301, because they wanted us to think Gamma bought it.

[ssbm_Kyouko]

Now that we've seen Gamma flip, it means Gamma wanted us to think he bought Hitman. Why would Gamma want that? Because his partner is the one that really bought it, and he wanted his partner to be mech-cleared by getting RBed by Imaginality

[ssbm_Kyouko]

Let's also not forget that despite most people TRing Misty for tone, her actions up to and including the replace make sense as a disgruntled Gamma partner

[ssbm_Kyouko]

Because he thought I would WIFOM out of it?
Because he thought he could win the 1v1?
Because he was counting on his partner to carry?
Because he just didn't think that far ahead? Hell if I know. It's not my job to justify the actions of dead scum. It's my job to explain why my actions don't make sense from scum, because they don't.

town!watcher never WIFOMs out of watching the publicly outed investigative. Even the weakest scum player knows this.
If he thought he could win the 1v1 he would have tried to get you limmed instead of me
I think he was counting on a fake mechanical clear to carry you through while S&M and I TvTed
In the first iteration of this setup run by regfan, there is a post in the scum PT with scum!Gamma saying he has a long-term plan in mind (he gets limmed really early, but then town throws and just stops bidding on stuff, it was a scum slaughter)

[ssbm_Kyouko]

Yes, I think they swapped, they had the info on dead ADs to know it was safe to swap by the time they made claims, even if they didn't use Watcher to check if one of them got AD'ed. It also makes the attempt to kill you make a lot more sense. If they thought you would holster the GD until the next scum was limmed, you would have been able to outright guilty them. If they waited until one of them was limmed to try to shoot you, another protective role might have come up for auction, and been more likely to protect you on a night where you would be digging dead scum. Preemptively killing you makes sense if they wanted to swap claims in the long run.

[ssbm_Kyouko]

Cop was redacted, I think because they wanted us to think Kitty bought it for over 500 before dying. Jailkeeper was redacted because Mastina claimed she had 201-299 dogecoin left, and they thought they could win it for 300. They did not want to show 300 winning because if mastina was telling the truth about having 299, as they would assume she was, it would give away that scum bought JK, because no town had 300 left at that point

[ssbm_Kyouko]

What is the reason for us to swap rather than just hiding watcher and claiming it was for a different amount? Or hiding GF, or anything else?

If you hide GF or Hitman, we can't see 499+301=800 and then it is unclear who won Hitman. This way, it looks like Gamma won Hitman.

If you hide Watcher, it looks like scum are not interested in knowing how much Watcher sold for. If scum knows how much Watcher sold for, they can try to POE which townie could afford it and shoot for that townie. Hiding Watcher indicates that scum bought watcher, because they are not interested in POEing the identity of the Watcher.

Hiding JK was done because Gamma tried to buy JK for 300, and if town saw 300 bought JK, it would have looked like the scum that bought it had already spent 500, which points to the Watcher. otherwise why wouldn't they have bid more and guaranteed they would outbid any living townies? Unfortunately for Gamma, Mastina must have placed her bid before him.

[ssbm_Kyouko]

And I was also literally the only person to sus Distance there. If I'm scum looking for the path of least resistance why do I pick someone whom nobody else scumreads and who was on the scum wagon?

How do we know you have watcher and not 2 shot hitman?

What would I have instead of watcher? 2 shot AD? Why wouldn't I just claim that? If I wanted to call Gamma guilty I could just say he drafted hitman directly, that would be so much simpler and there's no reason to lie if I don't have to.

Or do you think I just have nothing and spent no money for the first 3 days?

How could town!you possibly know if Gamma drafted hitman and since no hitman was apparently needed to kill Mastina, how is this even relevant?

@mod, what were the final bids on both 2 shot AD, 2 shot hitman and watcher?

450, 301, 500, respectively iirc

Kyouku can you tell me your bidding history again? I know you have one shot hitman, how much did that cost you?

Marci, you too please. How much did you spend on gravedigger.

Like the same person can only have one of these. Was Gamma’s 499 a midday or final bid and

@mod, why was the final bid on cop redacted?

I bought 1-shot Hitman for 426 on D1. I bid 52 & 22 on GD and 1-shot AD on D2, I don't remember which amount I put on which role, but it's irrelevant because I won neither role. D3 I didn't try to buy anything - I think all of the roles were already over 74 at mid-day. D4 I didn't try to buy anything. I might have tried to buy one of the neighborizers if I had remembered to bid before deadline, but I forgot to.

Reasoning for spending 426 on Hitman is I thought the player that spent 125 on all 4 roles at midday on D1 was scum posing as town, and if that was the case, they would only have 300 left to add to one of their bids. 300+125 = 425, so I bid 426 so I could outbid them, and then claimed my bid, because I knew that exposing I had spent a lot on a useless role would make me less likely to get NKed, and I wanted to live to be MO until I could figure out who was town better, and name a replacement I was confident in being town.

[ssbm_Kyouko]

can we all VOTE: short night phase now because I think as of deadline we were on no elim?

[ssbm_Kyouko]

^^1827 is quoted because I was also sussing Distance at some point on D2 as a bussing scum

[ssbm_Kyouko]

went for cop, didn't get it

dont wanna out how much yet and it probably doesnt matter anyway

Is this because I did a post link to 435 for mastina's cop bid claim? I have bad handwriting and mixed it up with Misty's post number when checking my notes if that's the case - Mastina did it on 487

[ssbm_Kyouko]

in 1414, S_S claims the amount Misty bid was 300

[ssbm_Kyouko]

oh and cop bid was redacted because scum have a factional ability that lets them redact the mid-day OR the final bid amount of 1 item, ONCE per day. So they used it to hide Cop so we wouldn't know it sold for less than 500 is my guess, because they would have wanted us to think Kitty bought it

[ssbm_Kyouko]

If they swapped, Gamma bought Watcher (500) and tried to buy JK (300) = total 800. S_S bought Godfather (499) and Hitman (301) = total 800

[ssbm_Kyouko]

If they didn't swap and Gamma actually won hitman, then S&M is the partner that is meant to endgame. but I just don't buy that anymore after interacting with S_S and with S&M toDay in mlimlo. S&M is trying to solve I think, and S_S seems more like trying to deflect off themself rather than solve

[ssbm_Kyouko]

I also think Gamma would try to do something sneaky with the numbers to distract/deceive me once he realized how obsessive I was over them, and he may have even remembered I am a very numbers-oriented person from previous meta years ago.

[ssbm_Kyouko]

If they swapped, Gamma bought Watcher (500) and tried to buy JK (300) = total 800. S_S bought Godfather (499) and Hitman (301) = total 800

huh..? so then why didnt gamma try to take tracker on the last day then?

If he bought Tracker it would mean he couldn't have bought Hitman, and he wanted us to think he bought Hitman, which is why it was not redacted

[ssbm_Kyouko]

VOTE: S_S

quick end

[ssbm_Kyouko]

Same, already made my case. If you want, I will quote it for you so you don't have to read through everything I posted about scum!S&M. I can answer any questions you have as well.

I do have one thing new to add though and that's that if I were scum I dont kill last night as S&M was voting S_S. I've been saying it for the last few Days as well but scum have coasted around 2 TvTs all game and that was mastina vs VFP and me vs. S&M. S_S hardly contributed and had some questionable usage of Watcher.

Misty also was obviously disappointed to have rolled scum and lost all motivation when Gamma bussed Kitty. VFP pointed out that Misty coming in saying "idk what the vote count is but let's do VFP today" at end of D1 was sus too. Also Misty directly addressed Gamma on replace-in asking how much he'd read to engage him in the thread and Alisae was under pressure on replace-out. So misty's engaging with Gamma is taking pressure off a buddy

[ssbm_Kyouko]

Also good luck, I'm happy with this one now even if we lose, since I figured out it was Gamma and was able to course-correct my read on S&M in mlimlo and not lose it for us there.

[ssbm_Kyouko]

What makes me scum? I dont think anyone ever cased me this game - also, my enhances were townie, and I think I've demonstrated pretty well that I have been trying very hard to solve this game in the last couple of Days. I do think I've hit the nail on the head with the theory that scum were coasting around 2 TvTs.

And despite their many (what I perceived as) scummy pushes on me, I was able to work out that S&M had a genuine misunderstanding and I saw that from them and was able to clear them and move on, and I don't think scum does that. S_S has not been trying to solve, it's very suspicious that they holstered watcher, and suspicious that Gamma would try to kill Mastina when Mastina is unlikely to track him, but is likely to be Watched. The only reason Gamma would have done that is if S&M were scum and they were not scum. S_S is clearly scum here and he tried to get a mechclear and then ride out mlimlo while 3 town had to Duke it out. Plus he was hesitant to clear you even though he found the Distance crumb. Plus the whole Misty case.

[ssbm_Kyouko]

Let me get some quotes from Gamma's scum pt from first iteration- where scum won. I think they'll be telling of what Gamma tried his time

[ssbm_Kyouko]

viewtopic.php?f=94&t=71672&start=50&hilit=Owners

Just read these first 3 pages of scum pt: highlights are, Socrates tells Gamma he will push him early in the game and get him to contribute so it makes both of them look more like town. Seems like in main thread this goes too far because Gamma says he'll have to power us socrates. Gamma says he has a long game plan involving leaving a specific 2 town players, tywin (the MO) and infinty alive, presumably to have them fight one another. Earlier in the scum pt socrates says tywin is a good town to have around for TvTs. It all fits, it's a very similar plan to last time, and why not do it again if it worked in the same setup the first time?

[ssbm_Kyouko]

I mean... would you mind laying out the main arguments for and against each of us?

I feel like it just requires so many things to go exactly right for me to be scum, whereas there's nothing really preventing ssbm from being scum.

Like for me to be scum you have to assume that
- I killed Distance and then told everyone about the inno
- I swapped roles with Gamma without having any clue what roles were coming on the next day or whether that would pay off
- I took the godfather despite knowing (or at least suspecting) that the cop was dead-- note that we do know that scum took GF, but I was the one to give the Distance-cop theory so it's possible they didn't believe it or wanted to WIFOM.
- I decided to guilty Gamma and prolong the game instead of trying to execute ssbm for the win (which would still give me a chance of winning if I lost that 1v1, and S&M basically trusted me unequivocally)

And for ssbm to be scum there's... really not much you have to assume. Just that she went for the hitman D1 for towncred and then didn't make the kill on N3 when she was tracked.

-killed distance because I was right about the bus and Distance had to die to throw off the scent. Pointing out the crumb that nobody else noticed indicates you may have been pr hunting as well as you seem to not contribute anything else that is useful to the solve. But pointing it out does get you dasy townpoints in a lot of people's eyes I think. You saw that and TMIed it though, because you knew both Distance and Marci were town. That's why you spotted it when nobody else did.

-i don't think you planned to swap with Gamma, but after the later roles appeared and it was revealed that Imaginality had holstered roleblocker, it became convenient to swap with Gamma to throw off the scent on the off chance that hitman did appear

-godfather was taken as part of the plan to reverse your bid claims. Scum knew no townie would want it so there was no chance of being outbid, and scum needed us to see 499+301 means that Gamma won godfather and hitman. This is also why Marci was aimed at, because she can guilty you by digging Gamma, and a bus was probably in Gamma's back pocket, ready to solidify the watcher claim as town. By buying watcher you deny probably the second strongest town PR and if you bus your teammate.with it you score major towncred. Look at D1 and see Gamma.has already bussed for towncred once in this game. He could easily have planned this one too.

- tbh I think Gamma decided you should bus him with a guilty because he knew I'd caught him and wasn't letting go, and it would set you up for the next day's mlimlo better than you would be if I had limmed Gamma cleanly. You didnt really contribute anything aside from that bus, so without it you'd be dead in the water in mlimlo, even with S&M's trust, and I think Gamma knew that once he flipped that S&M would get suspicious of her TRs (you)

All you're saying is that it's easy for me to be scum because you dont have to make many assumptions: let me quote something socrates said in Gamma's scum pt after they won it last time around:

"Mafia is a wonderful demonstration of how Occam's Razor is a shit bet."

[ssbm_Kyouko]

What makes me scum? I dont think anyone ever cased me this game - also, my enhances were townie, and I think I've demonstrated pretty well that I have been trying very hard to solve this game in the last couple of Days. I do think I've hit the nail on the head with the theory that scum were coasting around 2 TvTs.

And despite their many (what I perceived as) scummy pushes on me, I was able to work out that S&M had a genuine misunderstanding and I saw that from them and was able to clear them and move on, and I don't think scum does that. S_S has not been trying to solve, it's very suspicious that they holstered watcher, and suspicious that Gamma would try to kill Mastina when Mastina is unlikely to track him, but is likely to be Watched. The only reason Gamma would have done that is if S&M were scum and they were not scum. S_S is clearly scum here and he tried to get a mechclear and then ride out mlimlo while 3 town had to Duke it out. Plus he was hesitant to clear you even though he found the Distance crumb. Plus the whole Misty case.

Btw this was for you Marci but it got ninjad by S_S and he replied as though it were for him, just wanted to let you know.

Also, really, don't stress too much about it. Being wrong in limlo happens. Tough sometimes to be the conftown.

[ssbm_Kyouko]

-godfather was taken as part of the plan to reverse your bid claims. Scum knew no townie would want it so there was no chance of being outbid, and scum needed us to see 499+301 means that Gamma won godfather and hitman.

But at this point, it wasn't known that 301 would be enough to secure a PR on D4. It could just have easily been 400+400 or anything else.

I can only assume that Gamma spent so much on GF because he actually wanted it, which would mean that scum didn't know who got the cop or if they'd used it yet. And then he saw people calling out the bid and he freaked out and realized that he was gonna get caught if he didn't claim it.

If it had been 400 and 400 then there would be no question of the possibility that I, S&M, or Imaginality bought 2-shot hitman - we would all be cleared because we didn't have the money as scum to afford that. By making it 499 and

301

, it leaves the most possibilities around for townies who could buy hitman if they were scum, because 301-300 = 1. Any townie with at least 1 dogecoin left could be scum that bought Hitman. At the time that you placed that bid (before the mid-day reveal on D3), there was no evidence that any townies except VFP had spent everything.

Iit was unknown at the time which role it would be the next day, but the idea was to make town believe that Gamma bought whatever role it was, so that when the next Day came and you guiltied him, town would assume the ability was gone. If the slipped-through ability had been Daykill, you could have won it and not used it after Gamma was guiltied and pushed us to no lim so we could get down to odd numbers. Then you could have used nightkill and daykill to bring it to 1-1 and win. 2 potentially gamewinning abilities could have come for you on D4; you didn't have to know Hitman was coming to pull the swap you pulled.

499 +

301

is an ideal setup to a) frame townies and b) clear the claimed scum!Watcher of suspicion. By the time N3 came, it would have become clear to your team (because of the VFP claim and the fact that JK was not won by either of you for more than 200) that there were no townies left that could outbid 301. Prior to the reveal of the bid on Godfather, in 970, VFP claims he has already prepared for his lim and placed everything on Ninja. You would, at this point, know that CB and Mastina are the only 2 townies that can outbid 301. When CB was eliminated and you went into the Night without having won JK, you would known only mastina could have outbid you on JK, and known by extension that nobody else could outbid you on the 301 power. If Mastina had not outbid you, you could have killed her that Night instead of trying to kill Marci, and nobody would have been left alive that could outbid you for a 301 power.

If you had actually wanted Godfather, you would have placed your large bid on JK and neither of you would have claimed it publicly, then, after the mid-day, you would bid your 300 extra on Godfather and obscure Godfather at end of Day. This means you didn't actually want Godfather, rather you wanted people to think Gamma had Godfather, in preparation to make them think he died with whatever ability was coming the next day.

[ssbm_Kyouko]

If the numbers are confusing you can take them out of consideration and think about the day play, the night kills, and the claims.

Day play: I feel I contributed significantly more than S_S and interacted with every slot in a genuine way.
Night kills:
Distance was killed to hide the fact that Gamma was bussing Kitty. Bonus townpoints to me for being the only one that figured that out and pushed it on D2. Would scum commit that hard to bussing Gamma D2 and trying to take the game all the way to the end? You cant argue that Distance kill was to give me a credible reason to back off of Gamma, because I came back to him later on. If the idea was to distance from Gamma and then create a progression on him by killing Distance, I would have no reason to be pushing him end of day 4 the way i did,

before

S_S guiltied him.

Marci, you were shot at because you had Gravedigger and if you gravedigged Gamma after S_S bussed him, you would have seen Gamma did not die with Godfather. You weren't leading any wagons on scum, I dont think you SRed scum, so why else would you have been shot at but because of the power you had? Scum also knew you had spent money and no longer had a full wallet.

Mastina died because she had tracker. Dont worry about the numbers here, she claimed the midday bid of 200 was hers and it sold for 200, so scum knew she had it. Why does Gamma kill the claimed Tracker that is TRing him if he knows town has a Watcher alive who will obviously be watching the claimed PR? The answer is that he would not. He knows the watcher is scum so he is able to kill mastina freely. If S_S is town, he just shoots S_S instead of mastina, because mastina was TRing Gamma and S&M, and S&M was TRing Gamma as well. He was deeply seated in a townblock. His partner should have been the one killing that night, so why didn't his partner kill mastina? BECAUSE I was about to turboyeet Gamma into the sun and since he was dead anyways he sacrificed himself to give towncred to his buddy S_S.

Imaginality died because you were cop cleared but weren't very influential, and because S&M and I were left alive to TvT like Mastina and VFP.

S&M died because they had figured out S_S was scum and his last chance to win was to get you, who have been indecisive, to vote me. If I were scum I would have no killed and you would have followed S&M and I in voting S_S.

And the claims - see mastina's iso, she blows S_S up about his claim, first directed generally at the watcher that failed to watch Distance, then specifically at S_S for having such an unbelievable story about holstering N2 and then making a poor choice N3. And you can look at my iso for the post detailing all that I enhanced this game. You will see my claim has clear town thought processes explaining why I did what I did, and S_S's does not.

[ssbm_Kyouko]

but what if ur absolutely bamboozling me

What if S_S and Gamma are? They had S&M fooled, they had me fooled for a while too. I thought after the Gamma flip that S&M was scum for sure, but I cased them rigorously and it came to light that they were misguided by a misunderstanding with mod communication. And they realized I haven't been lying, and I realized they hadn't been lying, and we both realized S_S had duped us, but then deadline hit.

So here we are

[ssbm_Kyouko]

Scum in general dont try as hard as I have to solve the game, they dont reread over and over, they dont dig into multiple players' meta, they dont review past iterations of the setup. S_S was not trying to solve this game, ever, period.

[ssbm_Kyouko]

What part are you confused about?

im so confused for where the room for a possible scum watcher to get a 2nd pr would be

The scum watcher tried to get Jailkeeper, that is why it was hidden. Scum did not want people to know what JK went for because they wanted it for themselves and didnt want to claim it, because they were planning on claiming other roles (watcher and godfather). They hid it because if it went for 300 and nobody claimed it, it would look suspicious for anyone who had spent 500 (the Watcher).

If they could have afforded to pay more for it, they would have, and Mastina would not have won it. Scum would have won it publicly for something over 300 so that it would point away from the watcher and towards town that spent 400something, like me, Imaginality, the 2-shot AD. But they didnt have enough money to do this, so they hid Jailkeeper.

[ssbm_Kyouko]

They wanted to go for hitman and show us it was won for 301. At this time, Gamma had bought Watcher for 500, and had 300 left. S_S had bought Godfather for 499, and had 301 left. S_S bought Hitman and hey did not hide it.

Because Gamma had switched claims, it looks to everyone like Gamma won Godfather and Hitman for 499+301=800 total, leaving him with $0.

If they also went for tracker, we would know that scum outside of Gamma were trying to buy tracker.

Scum had 2 options:
-Outbid Tracker and hide how much it sold for
-Wait and see how much tracker sold for, so they would know whether mastina or marcistar won tracker, and could then kill accordingly. Scum tried to buy Jailkeeper for 300 on the dot (I can deduce this because watcher went for 500, and if they would have spent 301, scum would have won it, so they must have tried with 300), so they know mastina has only 200 left at most. Since mastina claimed the 200 midday bid on tracker, they knew if the day ended any higher than 200, that you won it.

This is another way, besides the cop inno, that I know you are town. Scum wanted to know if you or mastina won tracker, and they inadvertently cleared you by not outbidding you on tracker.

^and that last paragraph is exactly the kind of insight into the solve that S_S has not provided in this game, and I've been working on my analysis all throughout xlo to make sure I'm making the right decision. Analyzing every angle, taking my time, suggesting that we no lim for the extra day phase, etc. And I actually used my time to solve this. S_S hasn't done that.

[ssbm_Kyouko]

Specifically, the only theory that makes any sense for me being scum is if I swapped claims with Gamma, so I actually got the godfather and he got the watcher, and that's how I was able to afford hitman (since I was RB'd after Gamma died, I can't be scum unless I have the hitman).

This theory would require us to have planned the swap before we even knew what was coming on the next day or whether it would pay off.

You were able to kill through a roleblock so yeah, you have hitman, and you swapped claims with Gamma. I assume you guys did it to deceive town, and you were banking on either hitman or daykill to appear, because there is only about a 26% chance that all the roles I enhance appear on the last day, so it is safe and reasonable as scum to expect something beneficial to scum to slip through, and you guys got lucky.

[ssbm_Kyouko]

^and that last paragraph is exactly the kind of insight into the solve that S_S has not provided in this game, and I've been working on my analysis all throughout xlo to make sure I'm making the right decision. Analyzing every angle, taking my time, suggesting that we no lim for the extra day phase, etc. And I actually used my time to solve this. S_S hasn't done that.

This is worth responding to. All this is totally true, and totally NAI. I don't have to do a whit of analysis, unless marci asks for it. The analysis isn't worth anything; it doesn't prove anything, it just shows a possible world. If marci is having any trouble understanding why the world I'm presenting, I am happy to dive into it... but aside from that, doing this kind of analysis like you are is just trying to overwhelm her with lots of words, when she's already admitted she's having trouble processing everything.

This is why scum!S_S killed S&M by the way. He thinks you will be overwhelmed by what I'm saying and change your mind, and he knows if S&M is alive he doesnt get away with coasting.

and she isn't having trouble processing everything, it's just the numbers that are confusing her. You really think so little of her it pisses me off

[ssbm_Kyouko]

If I'm scum I probably just outbid mastina on tracker, obscure it, and shoot town watcher S_S, and I dont push Gamma the day before mlimlo.

I also dont hardpush the bus theory when Gamma was bussing D1, because he would be my only partner after Kitty, and I don't butt heads with S&M and draw attention to myself.

Look at what Gamma said when he voted me. No prior progression, essentially just nakedly sheeping S&M when they vote me. That is also not something he would be doing to his last partner. There's just no way.

S_S talks about swapping his claim with Gamma like it's a convoluted conspiracy or something, but it simply isn't. This is why it makes sense, and there are no mental gymnastics here.

Buying Watcher for 500 is a good way to a) demonstrate you're town with a bid of 500 and b) take away a strong power from town.

Gamma bought it planning to use it for towncred and to possibly find town PRs, like the doctor, or play defensive against the 2 investigative auction detectives that rolled.that day. Once scum realized it was impossible for the 2-shot AD to be alive, and that you had used your gravedigger shots, it was completely safe to swap claims, because they cannot be caught doing it. There is no downside.

Swapping claims doesnt hurt them at all - it only helps them. There is only upside, because in death they can fool us. Even if a good power didnt slip through, it was worthwhile to swap claims because of the element of deception that makes things murkier.

They got quite lucky to roll hitman though, and it really worked out for them that Imaginality had the roleblock left, because it makes S_S look clear.

[ssbm_Kyouko]

I think he’s town. Who do you dislike off Kitty wagon?

{Cyrus, marci, ssbm} would be my exe pool then. I don't especially scumread any of them, though.

S_S was pushing Distance D2, probably so the townflip would take credibility away from bus theory. NK could have been his way of accomplishing this as well. Also his off wagon exe pool that he doesnt scumread are all town

Do you think scum would make a kill so blatantly not in their best interests?

I mean, thanks to WIFOM, anything blatantly not in scum's interest may actually be in scum's interest.

Funny that you make this post and are now defending yourself by saying you wouldn't swap claims or wouldn't guilty Gamma as scum because it makes it hard for yourself

something_smart do u got any reads?

Still catching up, but they haven't changed much since yesterday. I still like VFP, S&M, mastina, and I'm not interested in CB or Gamma today.

Between the rest I'd prefer ssbm today I think, but I'm not opposed to imaginality.

fake reads

something smart i still want ur reads xoxoxoxoxoxoooxox
lowkey looks like ur just avoiding it imo

What is 1102? Chopped liver?

For the rest of your points, it seems like you've done a lot of "this is why scum would want to do what S_S did, therefore he's scummy" without really analyzing how likely I would be to do them as town. I'm willing to respond to specific points if you want (though I don't want to shit up the thread if you're just going to dismiss it or refuse to listen).

yes he was avoiding it and on top of that is preemptively defensive saying you would dismiss it or refuse to listen. Not something he should be saying to someone he hasn't sorted yet. That's bad faith.

wheres ur reasons?

VFP I explained. I liked 439, 469, and 561. They don't feel like angles that scum is likely to decide are worth taking.
S&M has basically been Nancy, and usually when Nancy is scum she plays pretty transparently toward an agenda but it seems like she's really committed to solving here. She can in fact read me well and I think it counts for a lot that she didn't just pay lip service toward calling me town but actually worked to try to save me.
Mastina read is mostly explained in 917. She tends to play a very honest scumgame, which means that her whole spiel about being disengaged is probably true. While she might be disengaged as scum, I wouldn't expect that to produce things like 492.

As for CB, I didn't have anything specific to back up that feeling, but his play and particularly his reachout and engagement with me has been very consistent with his towngame.
Gamma I thought Alisae was genuinely pissed about bad town play and he was also the last vote on Kitty which makes it an unlikely bus. Since I made that post this read has risen due to the godfather bid, which while dumb seems pretty unlikely to be from scum.

Looks to me like S_S is meta-reading (easy to fake if you are informed) all 3 of mastina, CB, and S&M. His VFP read also lacks depth and his Gamma read is based entirely on Alisae up until the point Gamma bids on godfather. To top it off, his reason he thinks that makes Gamma towny is that its dumb to do as scum. Ring any bells? Directly contradicts his previous interaction with Gamma where he says something that is not in scum's best interests becomes in their best interest for that very reason.

Literally all of S_S's reads are faked, his Gamma read is just egregious when you consider the reasoning he provided, and it's easy to see by ISOing him. This is just what I noticed on a quick ISO.

He also says he worked with his townreads but I dont see that in his ISO. I actually see a lot of questions without conclusions early on which is a classic way to buy time as scum

[ssbm_Kyouko]

day 7 ends in (expired on 2021-07-25 17:46:50)

[ssbm_Kyouko]

Marci, deadline is coming :s

[ssbm_Kyouko]

I dont think anyone's going to be mad if you get it wrong tbh. I know I'm not, but once I saw S&M flip I was happy with this game and the actual outcome of it doesnt matter to me. I do hope you side with me on this though. It's a shame when scum are allowed to coast to a win. It hurts everyone more when that happens.

[ssbm_Kyouko]

Make it a dank one

[ssbm_Kyouko]

what if i vote ssbm_kyouko for the memes

Make it a dank one

[ssbm_Kyouko]

Because I was right in the end when it mattered, and I flip flopped on them a lot. I'm kind of a self-centered and I think of myself as smart, and that's why I went for MO. To know that I solved the game is all that matters to me. I pegged Gamma when the rest of town was blind to it, and in mlimlo, I kept my cool, did not commit to voting out S&M even though I was convinced they were Gamma's partner. I correctly figured out that Gamma was trying to create partner equity there but that in actuality it was all coming from Gamma's side. I reread a lot of the game, and came to the correct solve, so as I said before, I'm feeling good.

I'm also happy because I was pinged by Misty's "I think this is won by poe anyways. At least that's going to be my excuse" posts. I thought to.myself that's an interesting thing to post and I think it's scum giving up, and I was right about that too. Imaginality thought that was a good point too right? In your hood? Can you trust in all.the dead town pointing the finger at S_S? Imaginality, S&M, Mastina?

It just feels good to catch scum, and I caught 2 this game. Yeah I was wrong as fuck on D1 about Kitty, but in the end I got it. It feels.good when a case is correct. Like with "sports caster" Gamma, and with "disappointed to have rolled scum" Misty.

Also, scum played very tricky with the bids this game, and it feels good to know I wasn't tricked by the numbers, because they certainly went for it. Knowing scum failed to outsmart me makes me happy. Makes me feel good about myself.

[ssbm_Kyouko]

ur response actually confuses me so much ssbm_kyouko, what was ur intentions with it..?

Which response?

[ssbm_Kyouko]

I dont think anyone's going to be mad if you get it wrong tbh. I know I'm not, but once I saw S&M flip I was happy with this game and the actual outcome of it doesnt matter to me. I do hope you side with me on this though. It's a shame when scum are allowed to coast to a win. It hurts everyone more when that happens.

This was meant to be posted after 1944. I started writing it and watched some survivor with my wife, then finished the post and saw your "what if I vote ssbm_kyouko for the memes" post in preview, and posted it without pedits

[ssbm_Kyouko]

I dont think anyone's going to be mad if you get it wrong tbh. I know I'm not, but once I saw S&M flip I was happy with this game and the actual outcome of it doesnt matter to me. I do hope you side with me on this though.

It's a shame when scum are allowed to coast to a win.

It hurts everyone more when that happens.

"its a shame" sort of sentences reminds me of the moves when people say "its a shame if x would happen" and then x

does

happen.

also just like, at this point it seems like ur

trying

to act like u dont care too much where i vote, but maybe thats just me being paranoid hehe
i wouldve expected u to respond to the "what if i vote ssbm_kyouko for the memes" in a much different way, i would've expected u to SCREECH at me so im a bit confused why u arent

my biggest doubt with u is that when i try to remember ur gamma pushes, i remember it as a sort of side thing. i dont remember u trying to push it that strongly, i remember u would drop the topic often, but then keep coming back to it, but it didnt really seem like u were trying to make it a wagon..?

i rlly wanna do my vote before bed but i also wanted to do something else such struggles

I pushed Gamma twice. The first time, I was still in the middle of a big argument with S&M. I was distracted and Gamma felt small in comparison to them. I knew what Gamma did was wrong and it felt scummy to me, which is why I bolded my thoughts on Gamma, because I didnt want them to get lost in the sea.of text between me and S&M.

The second time, I was feeling lost in the game, like no scumreads made sense. I took a step back and reevaluated, and realized his iso was just garbage. You can read it, it's pretty short and devoid of content, so you can blow through it, and you'll be able to see that my case on him is just a simple.truth. there's not really anything hard there for me to latch onto and grill Gamma on, except for his vote on me, because he was coasting. Also, the deadline came, and then in the morning S_S guiltied Gamma. The reason there isn't a hard push is because S_S bussed Gamma before I had the chance to finish him off.

I did try to make Gamma the wagon on D4, but the deadline came, and I wasn't able.to convince people quickly enough.

[ssbm_Kyouko]

^but I was distracted the first time by my argument, is what I'm trying to say. Also, when I did try to push Gamma, S&M was screeching at me about how he's town, and that would distract me again thinking S&M was scum again

[ssbm_Kyouko]

Gotta say I think town MVP in this one has to go to mastina for snatching that Jailkeeper and saving Marci. The obscured Jailkeeper was one of the last pieces of the puzzle but when it dawned on me that scum couldn't afford more than 300 for it, everything snapped into place. But Marci you gotta quick end to make it official, or wait until deadline.