Your avatar seems to contradict that....Rage wrote:Well.. what if I told you Rage actually means Rage-a-muffin?
Mini 634 - The Baron's court: Game over
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sekinj Mafia Scum
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sekinj Mafia Scum
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Her last name was Shadowinger... that may indicate that the Beast Master role wasn't necessarily pro-town.Show-sekinj
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sekinj Mafia Scum
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sekinj Mafia Scum
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I just mean, your avatar doesn't look as harmless as "rage-a-muffin" sounds.Rage wrote:
What?sekinj wrote:
Your avatar seems to contradict that....Rage wrote:Well.. what if I told you Rage actually means Rage-a-muffin?Show-sekinj
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sekinj Mafia Scum
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Not sure I agree with this. Mariyta seems pretty interested in pursuing that line of reasoning. I know the game has barely started, but her only posts so far have included it. In context, Grem's comment does not strike me as out of line. Several players added their two cents. Comments on avatars and names were made as well, which have nothing to do with scumhunting, yet were not suspected (true, those kinds of comments are normal at the start of a game, but my point is that they are less helpful than speculating about roles, yet OGML did not suspect the players that made them.)OhGodMyLife wrote:In previous Johoohno modded games green has been pro-town. I don't think speculating about what kind of role Nightson was will be in any way helpful. Its only taking away from the focus of actually scumhunting today.
Vote: Gremwell
Mariyta's inquiry about the role sounds honest, and SL tried to helpfully answer it while at the same time putting the matter to bed in post 8. Gremwell brings it back up again in 10, with a comment that is both untestable and highly distracting. So he gets my vote.
Maybe figuring out how people are connected to the baron and their abilities will help us figure out who the scum are.Show-sekinj
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sekinj Mafia Scum
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Good point. Scum could also use that type of dicussion to draw out other players who might have had insider information about the one who was NK'd. Maybe looking for another pro-town partner or the like in order to target that person.OhGodMyLife wrote:Eh I've found that more often than not those engaging in and especially furthering the "shucks we lost a power role" discussion are actually the scum bragging about who they hit.
Its obviously not a strong case but its much better than a random vote.
If then, I'm not sure who I would point too as furthering the discussion since there were questions, comments and speculation from several players, starting with Mar.Show-sekinj
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sekinj Mafia Scum
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I thought I'd let you know, my cat is very smart. Not only does he understand general relativity, he does my taxes for me.thinktank wrote:Speculating about the role is like cats trying to understand general relativity. sure they could try, but what the hell is the point. Its only going to end up confusing the town more than anything else and lead to baseless arguments.Show-sekinj
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sekinj Mafia Scum
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sekinj Mafia Scum
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How can you come to a decision without talking to anyone?raverblood wrote:no i am still in just dont havent come to a decision on who i think is scummy yet.Show-sekinj
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sekinj Mafia Scum
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sekinj Mafia Scum
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sekinj Mafia Scum
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Well at least people are playing now.
No, I'm not the scum, I just think it is important that we find them. And sitting on our thumbs while no one posts is not my idea of playing a game.
So, it is fine that you are suspicious of me, at least we have something to talk about.Show-sekinj
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sekinj Mafia Scum
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Ok. That's plausible. I was asleep in my quarters.ThAdmiral wrote:you know what - in the spirit of getting some discussion going i will tell you where I was:
I was in the village inn.Show-sekinj
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sekinj Mafia Scum
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I think some of the information is relevant and some is flavor... What if everyone shared their character's first name? I'm thinking that has to give us some information, and I can't see how the scum would use that against us...
Anyone see anything the scum might use with just our first names? If not, I'll start by sharing mine...Show-sekinj
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sekinj Mafia Scum
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No, I'm not looking for claims. I just want information. Since this is a theme game, most of us have something or other that we do at night and like the beastmaster they may not be conventional.
I just know the scum have something to hide, the town only have to hide to avoid the scum, so if we can get some info our there it will help us find scum.
Is anyone else interested in playing this themed game??-
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sekinj Mafia Scum
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Signing up for a game IS NOT indicative of wanting to play. Just take a look at the replacements thread.OhGodMyLife wrote:
Obviously we're all interested in playing this themed game, we all signed up for it.sekinj wrote:Is anyone else interested in playing this themed game??
Fine. All you other townies can just sit there and lurk along with the scum and nothing will happen in this thread.OhGodMyLife wrote:But volunteering role based information for no good reason is not a good idea. I have no idea if the rooms are simply flavor or have a mechanical function in game, but you can bet if they do have a function, its either the bad guys who need to know more about our personal information or a town power role who would be outing him/herself based on this information. The names might seem like a harmless thing for everyone to claim, but even that is giving up information without making the scum or anyone else fight to drag it out of us, i.e. by bandwagoning and leaving a vote record.Show-sekinj
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sekinj Mafia Scum
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I say what I mean to say. Go ahead and vote for me if you want to help the scum.Mariyta wrote:
What is looks like is that you keep putting your foot in your mouth and the votes keep piling up.sekinj wrote:
Signing up for a game IS NOT indicative of wanting to play. Just take a look at the replacements thread.OhGodMyLife wrote:
Obviously we're all interested in playing this themed game, we all signed up for it.sekinj wrote:Is anyone else interested in playing this themed game??
Fine. All you other townies can just sit there and lurk along with the scum and nothing will happen in this thread.OhGodMyLife wrote:But volunteering role based information for no good reason is not a good idea. I have no idea if the rooms are simply flavor or have a mechanical function in game, but you can bet if they do have a function, its either the bad guys who need to know more about our personal information or a town power role who would be outing him/herself based on this information. The names might seem like a harmless thing for everyone to claim, but even that is giving up information without making the scum or anyone else fight to drag it out of us, i.e. by bandwagoning and leaving a vote record.Show-sekinj
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sekinj Mafia Scum
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sekinj Mafia Scum
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In other words, I understand that caution is sometimes warranted. However if no one talks, town loses.OhGodMyLife wrote:
How is this in any way a response to the argument I made?sekinj wrote:Fine. All you other townies can just sit there and lurk along with the scum and nothing will happen in this thread.-
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sekinj Mafia Scum
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I got a whole list clues, but I can't play all my cards at once, or we could find scum.
I'll share two things for now:
First: almost all of us have night powers of some sort, 10 in fact. I am one of the few who has none.
Second: Whoever has a first name starting with the letter B is a pro-town character.-
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sekinj Mafia Scum
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sekinj Mafia Scum
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thx. I'll use my own judgement on what needs to be shared and when. If you are so eager to learn my name, then why didn't you speak up in the last page when I proposed that everyone share their names? no, instead you voted to lynch me.Mariyta wrote:
It wasn't smart to share the rest of the info you did. I personally would've preferred just a name for the time being.sekinj wrote:I think I'm done spilling my guts until someone else has the balls to do the same.
Unvotefor now. I need to think on it. Might be putting it back tomorrow.Show-sekinj
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sekinj Mafia Scum
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I was typing that on my blackberry and forgot the negative. "I got a whole list clues, but I can't play all my cards at once, or we couldSinging Librarian wrote:I'm not buying sekinj's claim, I'm afraid. I agree that it's unlikely that 10 out of 11 have night powers (and the 11th has a load of information instead), plus this sentence:
"I got a whole list clues, but I can't play all my cards at once, or we could find scum."
Um - catching scum is what we're trying to do, isn't it? You're withholding 'cards' because said cards could help us catch scum? Not good, really not good. Or did you mean something completely different?n'tfind scum." If I just list out everything I know, that wouldn't help us find scum.
Even if you don't believe that I accidentally forgot the "n't", the sentence still wouldn't make sense if I WAS scum.Show-sekinj
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sekinj Mafia Scum
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I was given the list of information in my role pm. But then I had a note delivered to me at night as well (anonymously). So, I'm going to use the info I have to catch scum, but some of it even I take with a grain of salt.
However, since I'm using this info to find scum, I can't be completely up front about everything. In other words,even if it wasn't against the rules, I wouldn't just quote my role pm because that would help the scum more than the town. Despite mar's comment I'm not trying to be dumb about this.-
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sekinj Mafia Scum
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sekinj Mafia Scum
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No one said otherwise in so many words, you are right. But also, no one agreed in the slighted. What DID happen is that I started getting voted for. That tells me that my suggestion of sharing my name was interepted as scummy. Now you and mar are pressuring me to go through with it. That seems very odd to me.
I am not about to spout all my little facts one after another until you deign to believe that I am pro-town. I'm also not going to give information under pressure from someone I cannot trust. I will stand my ground until the situation calls for more information.
I will address your other points in a few hours.-
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sekinj Mafia Scum
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No one said otherwise in so many words, you are right. But also, no one agreed in the slighted. What DID happen is that I started getting voted for. That tells me that my suggestion of sharing my name was interepted as scummy. Now you and mar are pressuring me to go through with it. That seems very odd to me.
I am not about to spout all my little facts one after another until you deign to believe that I am pro-town. I'm also not going to give information under pressure from someone I cannot trust. I will stand my ground until the situation calls for more information.
I will address your other points in a few hours.-
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sekinj Mafia Scum
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Oops... look like I double posted the same thing. I guess that comes from trying to play mafia form my blackberry.Show-sekinj
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sekinj Mafia Scum
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I really don't know if he was being serious or not. I don't know if the Villiage Inn is an actual location, or if ThAdmiral was being facetious. I was just saying, in a world of barons and mansions and guest quarters, a "village inn" sounds plausible.Rage wrote:Hello ya'll, I was out of town for a couple days and didn't get the chance to tell all my games. To get right into this, I'd like some things cleared up:
How did you consider that plausible when you sleep in your quarters? How did you know that the village inn existed on Night 0?sekinj wrote:
Ok. That's plausible. I was asleep in my quarters.ThAdmiral wrote:you know what - in the spirit of getting some discussion going i will tell you where I was:
I was in the village inn.
If it were not true, wouldn't we have people jumping out of the wood-work claiming that they don't have night powers? but no, everyone took that news sitting down, no one reacted violently or was shocked, or stood up and screamed "WAIT!! SHE MUST BE SCUM, I DON'T HAVE NIGHT POWERS!!" That didn't happen. So to me, that looks like the information is accurate.Rage wrote:
This clue does not help the Town at all on Day 1. The Town has no way to know this is true, nor whether you are pro-town because of it.sekinj wrote:First: almost all of us have night powers of some sort, 10 in fact. I am one of the few who has none.
well, I certainly can't help my townmates if they lynch me for being too nosy. I also can't help the town if I keep all the information to myself. So, I claimed and shared some information in order to convince people not to lynch me. From my point of view that is VERY pro-town. I am convinced that the town needs my help to find and lynch the scum. We just have to put the clues together. This however is complicated by the fact that we have scum masquerading under our noses.Rage wrote:
I believe this more than the first "clue" you gave out. If you are town, you are giving out unnecessary information to the scum, especially considering how you have more Knowledge. If you are scum, which is more likely because of the fact that you have this information in the first place, you are giving out this information to get the town off of your back.sekinj wrote:Second: Whoever has a first name starting with the letter B is a pro-town character.
I didn't demand that they reveal themselves (in fact it is you and mar who are demanding that from me). I just gave the information out for consideration by everyone. Maybe it will come up later in the game. Maybe nothing will come of it at all.Rage wrote:
You stated this before you claimed.sekinj wrote:I think some of the information is relevant and some is flavor... What if everyone shared their character's first name? I'm thinking that has to give us some information, and I can't see how the scum would use that against us...
Anyone see anything the scum might use with just our first names? If not, I'll start by sharing mine...
You stated this after you claimed. What I want to know is, what scum-hunting could you have possibly done by getting a pro-town role to reveal their self?sekinj wrote:Second: Whoever has a first name starting with the letter B is a pro-town character.
If you don't believe me now, how will more information change that? Wouldn't you just doubt the additional things I say? Besides, I'm not here to clear my name with you. I'm here to save the Baron from getting killed.Rage wrote:Vote: sekinj
The information you have given out so far benefits the scum much more than it does the Town. Remember that this is the Baron'sCourt? The title of this game means that it is more likely trouble is coming from inside of the court, meaning someone of power has turned to the dark side. Of course, they would need some sort of motive, which in your case I think it is safe to assume that your character has a lack of power and is wanting to change that. However, my own Knowledge precedes me. Sekinj, if you want your name cleared from my suspicions, I suggest for you to give out more information. The information I would like to know is your first name, nickname and last name. And I think it all the more reason for you to be giving this information out seeing as how you have said the following:
And no one has said otherwise.sekinj wrote:Anyone see anything the scum might use with just our first names? If not, I'll start by sharing mine...
And I have one question for you... why are you so sure I have a nickname?
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sekinj Mafia Scum
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@rage: you didn't answer my question. Why are you so sure I have a nickname?
Since no one else has shared personal information (which I can understand, but still, it leaves me little to go on) I only have the reactions to my posts to go on. I've rocked the boat more than anyone else, so that is the only thing we can go on right now.
There are some people that I suspect of being scum, and others that I just suspect of not being too bright.
Mariyta is currently at the top of my LoS. I'm not sure if I just find her personally annoying, or actually scummy. We will have to play longer to see. However, it was her post that made the first minor disturbance, and I have yet to see anything from her that helps the town.Show-sekinj
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sekinj Mafia Scum
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That is the information I have. Yes.OhGodMyLife wrote:
please elucidate. do you mean ten out of the starting eleven roles in the game had night actions? and that you are the one person who doesn't have a night action?sekinj wrote:First: almost all of us have night powers of some sort, 10 in fact. I am one of the few who has none.Show-sekinj
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sekinj Mafia Scum
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for the record, I am 'she' but my character is a 'he'.ThAdmiral wrote:It's a pity we didn't name claim when we were asked to. Generally they just don't help much but we actually could have (basically) confirmed some towns.
Role seems alright to me. Believable and so far no one has contradicted his "clues".
Is there anything else you would like to ask us sekinj that may lead to finding scum?
Maybe we should share the gender of each of our characters?Show-sekinj
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sekinj Mafia Scum
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10 players, total, have night choices. You are contradicting that? I guess you wouldn't care to explain?OhGodMyLife wrote:Confirm Vote: sekinjShow-sekinj
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sekinj Mafia Scum
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Frankly, it will help me tell who is lying.Rage wrote:
Could you explain how this would benefitsekinj wrote:Maybe we should share the gender of each of our characters?anyonein this game?
But your idea is fine too. Sharing nicknames is a good idea.Show-sekinj
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sekinj Mafia Scum
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Cry me a river. If I had listed suspicions on half the other players you would have claimed OMGUS as well. Considering I was almost lynched, it's a good bet the scum were on the wagon. However, I listed my suspicion honestly and didn't even puncuate it with a vote. I said we will have to play longer to see how you turn out. So far you're still not helping the town any that I can see.Mariyta wrote:
OMGUS much? For the record, I have a nickname, Nightson had a nickname, it goes to follow that there are others that have nicknames as well.sekinj wrote:Mariyta is currently at the top of my LoS. I'm not sure if I just find her personally annoying, or actually scummy. We will have to play longer to see. However, it was her post that made the first minor disturbance, and I have yet to see anything from her that helps the town.Show-sekinj
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sekinj Mafia Scum
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Clearly. Just as I clearly stated my information and you still had me confirm it.OhGodMyLife wrote:Clearly I am saying that either
orten out of the starting eleven roles in the game had night actions
must be false.[sekinj is] the one person who doesn't have a night action
Anyway, do you care to embellish?Show-sekinj
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sekinj Mafia Scum
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Wait your turn. I'm not afraid to address any arguements.OhGodMyLife wrote:No response to the fact that my existence proves the supposed information you presented to be utterly false?
Nobody should volunteer any further information about their roles. I have sufficiently counterclaimed sekinj. She needs to be lynched now.
I still maintain that this the information I recieved with my role: 10 players, total have night choices, and I do not have any night powers.Show-sekinj
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sekinj Mafia Scum
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sekinj Mafia Scum
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sekinj Mafia Scum
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I don't know. Maybe there IS some sort of sanity involved like someone mentioned before.
I was very surprised to hear OGML's claim, I can't really see why he would lie about it. Plus, no one else has joined in his claim. If he WAS scum, I would thing that he and one or two buddies might claim they have no night choices in order to get me lynched, but on his own I can't see how that would be effective.
My info said, Power: --- and then later in my list of knowledge: 10 players, in total, beside you have night choices.Show-sekinj
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sekinj Mafia Scum
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sekinj Mafia Scum
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In this case, it just seems like something they could easily do while still seeming town. but yeah, they would have some explaining to do when I got lynched and turned up town.Gremwell wrote:I don't think a scum pair would be so stupid as to cc together
It's just hard for me to see why OGML would be lying.Show-sekinj
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sekinj Mafia Scum
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Rage: listen to what I'm saying. I obviously know I'm not lying. But I can't understand why OGML would be lying either. He seems convinced, and I dont' know what it would gain him to lie. that's all I'm saying. And, as I already said, maybe there is some sort of sanity involved. I also think that the scum aren't necessarily the only lyers in this game. For example, I'm sure the Baron at least would feel like he has to lie to hide his identity.Rage wrote:Oops, I didn't see this!
If you knew he was lying, which means the information you have received in your Knowledge is correct, you would know that either 1) He REALLY wants you lynched or 2) He is scum. However, if you do not know he is lying, meaning the information you have received in your Knowledge is not correct and you have lied to the Town about it, you wouldn't not know nearly as much.sekinj wrote:It's just hard for me to see why OGML would be lying.
What do you think makes more sense, sekinj?Show-sekinj
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sekinj Mafia Scum
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I really couldn't tell you why the mod structures his PMs the way he does.Rage wrote:
lol, why would it say Power if you didn't have one? I'm convinced you are hiding something about what your role is capable of doing from the Town.sekinj wrote:My info said, Power: --- and then later in my list of knowledge: 10 players, in total, beside you have night choices.
My vote stays where it is.Show-sekinj
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sekinj Mafia Scum
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I just don't see the point in giving out more information if :
a) According to most players, the information I have given benefits scum more than town
b) Most players think giving personal information is scummy
c) Fishing for information to back up the clues I have is scummy
b) My information is not believed anywayShow-sekinj
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sekinj Mafia Scum
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What bothers me the most is players who push and push for my special information, yet don't provide any of their own basic information.Mariyta wrote:OGML seems to have dropped out of the discussion. You should really contribute. Currently, your lack of participation strikes me as very scummy. "I refuse to give you any more info; now I'm going to go sit on my rock."
Sekinj, I think you're overreacting quite a bit. If you are indeed the chancellor, you should know how important your information will be in the long run, despite what happens right now. Play it smart and stay alive as long as possible.Show-sekinj
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sekinj Mafia Scum
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I need to point out that my information is almost useless if we don't know anything about each other. (Like the little tid-bit about the first name starting with B, it means nothing currently because we don't know anyone's first name). Now, I understand how that could work to the advantage of the scum, but I think if we play a crafty game, the town will come out ahead.Show-sekinj
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sekinj Mafia Scum
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IGremwell wrote:Ok I'd just like to clarify this,
sekinj- you claim barons chancellor, a role with no power/night action, but instead has a list of clues that you don't know if their true
ohgodmylife- you claim to not have a power/night action, and refuse to give any other information
I'm not digging for any new information I'd just like to make sure we're all on the exact same pagedidtrust my clues, until OGML popped up with his side of the story (which I can't reconcile by simply saying he's lying and is scum, because I don't know why scum would be that desperate to lynch me)... I still don't know what to think about it since OGML hasn't come back to comment anymore.
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sekinj Mafia Scum
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No, I didn’t count the players, I just saw several people say that including you, raver and thinktank. I agree that the scum could use the information, but I’m hoping to play a smart enough game so that the town is the one with the advantage.Rage wrote:
Does most players = Rage and Raverblood?a) According to most players, the information I have given benefits scum more than town
Are you kidding? That is the whole premise of OGML’s posts after claiming he doesn’t have night powers. Telling people not to share because according to him I am scum.Rage wrote:
Where has this been said by anyone?b) Most players think giving personal information is scummy
My fishing for information is what started the whole wagon against me. Apparently at least 4 players think it is very scummy.Rage wrote:
I've been trying to do that to both you and OhGodMyLife but have never been called scummy for trying.c) Fishing for information to back up the clues I have is scummy
OGML, Sing (post 83, 163), Rage (post 141), raver (post 157) all say that my information is not believable or that I am lying. I completely understand that players can’t believe me off hand, and that I will be doubted, but my point is that I’m not going to give out more information in hopes of being more believable.Rage wrote:
Refer to a) and b).[d]) My information is not believed anyway
Agreed.Rage wrote:@OhGodMyLife, I think it is now quite obvious that you have not provided enough information to back up your claim against Sekinj.Show-sekinj
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sekinj Mafia Scum
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I completely understand the hesitation. Yet although you and Rage both want me to share my full name, neither of you have provided ANY information (except that rage shared gendar info). I just don't understand pushing people to do things that you are not willing to do.Mariyta wrote:
You can't expect everyone to just start revealing everything because you say so. You're not the only important role out there and I'm sure most of those roles want to stay just as alive as you are. You can bet your booty that the first time someone with a name beginning with B comes forward, they'll be dead that night. It's the safe move for scum.sekinj wrote:
What bothers me the most is players who push and push for my special information, yet don't provide any of their own basic information.Mariyta wrote:OGML seems to have dropped out of the discussion. You should really contribute. Currently, your lack of participation strikes me as very scummy. "I refuse to give you any more info; now I'm going to go sit on my rock."
Sekinj, I think you're overreacting quite a bit. If you are indeed the chancellor, you should know how important your information will be in the long run, despite what happens right now. Play it smart and stay alive as long as possible.Show-sekinj
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sekinj Mafia Scum
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I didn't mean to skip this question. The answer is not a simple yes and no unfortunately. However, I do know how many female characters there are in total.Rage wrote:
My character is female and I am a male in real life, am I lying?sekinj wrote:Frankly, it will help me tell who is lying.Show-sekinj
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sekinj Mafia Scum
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you are right, I think it was post 132 that I was looking at. In that post you say a lot about how I don't seem townie because I claimed early.raverblood wrote:
say what i didnt say that your post was not believable or that you where lying. in post 157???sekinj wrote:
OGML, Sing (post 83, 163), Rage (post 141), raver (post 157) all say that my information is not believable or that I am lying. I completely understand that players can’t believe me off hand, and that I will be doubted, but my point is that I’m not going to give out more information in hopes of being more believable.Rage wrote:
Refer to a) and b).[d]) My information is not believed anyway
everyone: please feel free to look at the posts I'm referencing and let me know if I am mis-understanding your meaning.Show-sekinj
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sekinj Mafia Scum
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Raver: In looking back at your posts I noticed this one. I have to point out that this makes no sense at all. You are FoSing me based on my information possibly being true?raverblood wrote:heres is just thought that i have come up with.
sekinj wrote:My info said, Power: --- and then later in my list of knowledge: 10 players, in total, beside you have night choices.
rage you gave me an idea... if sekinj is true on what he says then could power be the closest to baron.Rage wrote: trouble is coming from the Baron's staff. Seeing as how you apparently have no night action but are what I assume the closest role to the Baron
FoS: sekinjbecause he does seem to be the closest.Show-sekinj
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sekinj Mafia Scum
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@sing: Okay. I'm glad you pointed that out.
@everyone: I do plan on giving more information when the time calls for it, but my point was that I'm not going to give out more information simply to convince people I am town. That doesn't seem like it would work anyway.Show-sekinj
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sekinj Mafia Scum
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Yes. I agree.thinktank wrote:
Giving more out now would be a bad idea because from what we've seen all the information you have would be well utilized later in the game. the more you reveal now the more safe claims you will be giving scum.sekinj wrote:@sing: Okay. I'm glad you pointed that out.
@everyone: I do plan on giving more information when the time calls for it, but my point was that I'm not going to give out more information simply to convince people I am town. That doesn't seem like it would work anyway.Show-sekinj
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sekinj Mafia Scum
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Understood. But I'm going to push back as well because I can't help the town unless I am believed.Mariyta wrote:
A)I told you I had a nickname. If it makes you feel better, I'm a girl, but my character is male.sekinj wrote:
I completely understand the hesitation. Yet although you and Rage both want me to share my full name, neither of you have provided ANY information (except that rage shared gendar info). I just don't understand pushing people to do things that you are not willing to do.Mariyta wrote:
You can't expect everyone to just start revealing everything because you say so. You're not the only important role out there and I'm sure most of those roles want to stay just as alive as you are. You can bet your booty that the first time someone with a name beginning with B comes forward, they'll be dead that night. It's the safe move for scum.sekinj wrote:
What bothers me the most is players who push and push for my special information, yet don't provide any of their own basic information.Mariyta wrote:OGML seems to have dropped out of the discussion. You should really contribute. Currently, your lack of participation strikes me as very scummy. "I refuse to give you any more info; now I'm going to go sit on my rock."
Sekinj, I think you're overreacting quite a bit. If you are indeed the chancellor, you should know how important your information will be in the long run, despite what happens right now. Play it smart and stay alive as long as possible.
B)The reason people are pushing is because you are highly suspicious, and you can't be upset that a role like yours would be met with hesitation. It's a dangerous role if it's actually a scum role.