Mini Normal 1854: Game Over
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Aj The Epic Mafia Scum
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Aj The Epic Mafia Scum
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So this is my notification that I'm still reading and such.
A point is I think it's highly likely Joshz is scum. Eric Rasputin was highly suspect and what I've read on this page does nothing to make me warm and fuzzy about the slot. Specifically, drawing on the newb card isn't an excuse for bad play. New players are honest and easily readable as town, if not confused. Inconsistency is a great way to catch the differentiation if nothing else.-
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Aj The Epic Mafia Scum
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In my defense, I am both half way caught up and in finals week for college.In post 1536, Joshz wrote:Lol I didn't see the mod note and got really confused
Hi Sonia. Maybe you'll be done your read through before aj!-
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I did so after reading the first few pages of his. They were not good by any measure.In post 1556, Gamma Emerald wrote:Aj - this is a small issue, but has thrown shade on Eric after the consensus decided he was town-
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In post 1627, Nachomamma8 wrote:
What do you think about the reasons I brought up against Deer?In post 1623, Hiraki wrote:
the one he didn't make yet?In post 1610, Nachomamma8 wrote:Aristo, Hiraki, mind voting AJ with me? As far as catchups go, that one was particularly pitiful.
i can't atm tbh
It's also not like he hasn't had time to catch up and yet the only thing he's able to provide is his ridiculous reasons for reading Eric as scum - do you believe a town player here with any measure of competence should be reading Eric as scum for the reasons AJ is?
I know you're better than this.
I'm almost positive you know that I'm finishing up finals. I've stated that in multiple places. That's what's delayed this. It's not me being less here, that's everywhere. I finished them yesterday morning and had assignments for my job (university resident assistant) that required me to do administrative work until this morning at 2am. Meaning now I'm free.
The the is, I haven't really provided anything on josh other than 1.) Don't pull the noob card, 2.) new town are bleeding heart town and 3.) I didn't like eric's early posting.
Guess what? My slot predecessor agreed with this third point. While people called Eric the VI/newbtown, he contradicted that second point himself.
24 hours and the game's completely caught up on.-
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Eric's statement wasn't what made me scumread him in the first place. I don't believe being stupid warrants a town read, especially since it's fairly common knowledge that new people to mafia go through R2R first. Certainly I don't think that's enough to take away from the fact that everything I had read when I made the statement was him paying attention only to himself, working hard to have the appearance of shrugging off votes and doing absolutely nothing for the town.-
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Aj The Epic Mafia Scum
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Nacho, I'd like to debate your read on Ari. My accusations come from his voting patterns, more retroactively viewed.
So checking in here. Context: Fitz has started his wall posts by this post, and I think the four-call scum post (with the bad line endings that made it look like a poem) had already come through. There's reason to vote him. To this point, Ari addresses Fitz on a vote for Io(deer)(my) slot's vote on an inactive, voting for Fitz in RVS. Once more later basically on sarcasm which was basically NAI all around. Anyways, there's reason for a Fitz lynch.In post 413, Aristophanes wrote:Who's up for a Fitz lynch today?
His arguments against people are horrendous, and I know he's better than that. I mean like "You voted a Mason before they claimed! You must be scum!" doesn't even make any fucking sense!
VOTE: Fitz
In post 435, Gamma Emerald wrote:I'm dead serious: if we end up not having a decent lynch at deadline I suggest we PL Creeps because his play will get in the way of the town.
Exchange goes together. Gamma advocates the PL on Creeps, Ari shows interest and in fact subsequently votes for creeps on the admitted PL. Both bad by Gamma and Creeps. Major issue is there's two posts between this and his fitz vote. First, one complaining about Creeps posting a huge wall for nothing more than a line response. The second correcting a grammatical mistake in his post brought up by another player.In post 437, Aristophanes wrote:I'd be down
But when push comes to shove, he consolidates on a PL instead of going with what seems to be his scum read. But my problem is, here's the vote count:In post 482, Aristophanes wrote:
We should all consolidate on a wagon to avoid this.In post 480, Creeps20 wrote:
Has it? Huh.In post 479, TwoFace wrote:Nah it's been inactive for a while.
We are going to end up with a no-lynch at this rate. Not good. At all
VOTE: Creeps
He's changing to a creeps vote from his scum read when his vote change just changes the top wagon, not pushes it farther. Which is this awkward action that shouldn't exist given the lynch between a suspected scum and a policy lynch.In post 476, Dierfire wrote:havingfitz (3): TwoFace, Gamma Emerald, Aristophanes
Hiraki (3): Lil Uzi Vert, MisaTange, Eric Rasputin
Creeps20 (2): ScumDeersAreVeryTasty, Hiraki
Lil Uzi Vert (1): TheseViolentDelights
TwoFace (1): havingfitz
ScumDeersAreVeryTasty (1): Creeps20
No Vote (2): FrankJaeger, Vedith
Jeeeesus. Can't remember why he scum reads Fitz but knows Creeps is bad, who he moved initially onto a policy lynch. Nothing in Creep's iso is town, but no reference of a specific point. The only saving grace is he thinks Eric is scum. Before you start this shit of "oh but he's VI/Conf town", foot in mouth and continue reading.In post 622, Aristophanes wrote:Alright, so I've Iso'd Creeps and he hasn't done a single town thing yet. He needs to die. If you disagree, please let me know why, because if you can read this Iso and say "Sure, that could be town" then you've played with some pretty useless townies.
I could also be happy with an Eric lynch, but I'd rather see what his replacement can do I guess.
Gamma is meh. I hate his outing of the partners, but otherwise I guess he's aight. Not a today thing for sure.
Fitz I know I scumread and I can't remember why, nor can I be bothered to check atm. I'll vote there if I have to.
Like honestly, can we just get to the night phase? I'm getting antsy.
Eric's actions actually are consistent with Creeps' own actions this game. Specifically the segment about how Creeps doesn't use an avatar. It's a completely stupid notion and a newb move. Who are you actually trying to get to skip your post? Yet it was blown up to be anti-town in THIS INSTANCE where it's a site wide philosophy held by creeps (as instanced by the fact that you can't change avatars for specific threads). In the fact that he's reading his self-admitted PL and Eric the same way, there is consistency here.
The concerning part that remains is that "Nothing town" doesn't mean "scum" and as short as that bridge is between the two, Ari does nothing to build it. There's no conviction to this wagon that is now entering a range that was about to guarantee creeps' lynch.
And really, looking back we can almost assume that Creep's wagon was a COUNTERWAGON to Fitz, a scum lynch. The one who perpetuates the force of this counterwagon is actually Ari, who basically swung the top two wagons by switching from a scum read to a Gamma-admitted (and not Ari-argued) PL.
This was weird, because it came AFTER fitz was lynched, but before the flip. This is basically targeting out Twoface, who did get a serious case of cold feet vs Fitz but did argue it the majority of the way into existence to begin with. Ari really hadn't been this loose since far earlier in the game, too, and was late to the Fitz wagon. But ODDLY ENOUGH he's got this assuredness that fitz is scum now, after saying he can't remember why fitz was scum earlier.In post 1107, Aristophanes wrote:
> Calls Fitz ScumIn post 1104, TwoFace wrote:but you make the most sense as the scum partner, I called that shit ages ago
fitz/tvd (you)/hiraki
> Refuses to lynch Fitz
>> Refuses to lynch Scum.
Guys, TwoFace is scum :O
I'll understand if you want to avoid this, nacho, but I don't want to hear an excuse of meta.
Ari, Gamma.
Hiraki/Frank need to be better seen.
Nacho, Sonia, josh, Vedith are town. If you're going to put Josh as town for Eric, I see no reason Sonia doesn't get the same pass. Hesistant on Uzi.
Given my current wagons, and how Hiraki's wagon has seemed to be the 'easy second' all day yesterday and today, I'd like to point out that Gamma/Frank are all over that wagon.-
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Aj The Epic Mafia Scum
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You need to explain what this 'bit more' is. I'm still wanting Nacho to respond to my belief on Ari, but he's thus far ignoring it. The reason I suggested it'd be fine if he didn't want to address it was because I assumed the mason was still hidden and nacho's 'meta' read coverage was him covering his mason buddy's ass.-
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This wagon flips Hiraki town.xSoniaNevermindx wrote:Are you fine with this wagon do you think it's gonna flip town/scum
Are you finally caught up or decently so?
If you had to guess a few sr's what would it be
can you explain your top 2 tr's outside of masons a bit more
What do you think of the backup bg claim
I'm basically caught up. I think there's about 5 pages between where I stopped reading and where I replaced in.
Ari is the strongest one. Given Frank's BG claim I'm not confident in a second outside Gamma for advocating a PL d1.
No. This game feels scum as shit top to bottom, being a TR for me is like being the least bad scum right now. I feel confident with TwoFace being town but that's because getting cold feet on a wagon doesn't necessitate scum being unwilling to bus, just insecure town.
Just having read nacho's reason on it, I agree. I've never seen a backup BG, but BG's in general are normally a super weak role to begin with. I don't know Frank well enough to say he can/can't fake claim but my guess is in line with Nacho's, that his is beyond his current experience to fake claim that.-
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Yeah the issue here is you're probably not going to be around to do that. A town this weak suggests a weak scum team, which really just suggests they'll start picking off town leaders which gets them a basic conftown.In post 1716, Nachomamma8 wrote:As I told Josh, I'll explain the read on Ari when I have time to. I haven't had time to and it certainly hasn't been a priority of mine.-
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Frank buys you one night. After that, if the town straight loses members off of mislynches, this town as it is now has no capacity to win this game. You need look no farther than Day 1 to see this, how disjointed the base is and how incapable the entire game was of getting a town block and after that having the town block be coherent. How does that continue if the foundation isn't laid before you go in N3?
What needs to be done before then is LUV/Joshz need to step up to make that block. The voters from yesterday need to be strongly re-evaluated on the specific counterwagons to Fitz and the sheeping mentality needs to stop. The lack of justification in this game is going to kill it. I'm pretty sure you realize this, but there is a lot of "administrative" work that needs to take place before you exit.-
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There's no need to worry about Frank because here is the end-all be-all:
If Nacho dies before Frank, Frank gets lynched.
I know I'm beating a dead horse but this is simply the only way that can play out. Scum having a RB is near impossible in this setup since BG is almost negative/neutral utility to the town as it really doesn't help them (they still lose someone).
What do we know about Gamma? In current situation (assuming no lies from Frank), Hiraki's wagon is almost 100% town. This seems nigh impossible to me because scum should've seen the writing on the wall yesterday that Hiraki was probably going to die. Them not being there makes no sense on either side.-
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See, this is exactly what worries me about you is because this shit is where the town loses. We either catch scum tonight (frank's lie, Nacho dies) or you're gonna have one last day with Nacho able to lead this town. And in that day, if you really plan to waste it on such an easy mislynch, going forward this town will deconstruct. If you're really convinced this slot is scum, then that should be D4's lynch, not D3.-
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I'm normally not capable of guiding a town by myself, so that's why I think Nacho being alive is so damn paramount. What my main goal is to try and setup the core of a town to be ready for nacho's departure. Yeah I'll work on scumhunting but I think we have to clean this game up to find the town people and engage them first.-
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I think you realize I'm looking at it a different way than that. It's not worth arguing over more than saying that a system is worth using when everyone has an established and organized role towards the goal of winning.
As far as I'm concerned, the most major breakdown right now is there's not enough evaluation of who's been on what wagon and why. People don't like VCA, but this is more an idea to get a sense of motive. Why did someone join a wagon? Why'd they leave? How's in benefit them to do that? This hasn't been happening and is a stark contrast to a town that constantly re-evaluates those people who have joined a wagon under suspicious circumstances. The ends do not justify the means in mafia, so you have to make sure you are evaluating those means. That's exactly what I was doing in my post about Ari, and what I think this town needs to do with each individual.-
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If you really need help understanding this:
1) No one in this game is currently able to do what Nacho can to advance the Town
2) Nacho can do what anyone else in this game is currently capable of doing
3) Ergo, Nacho is the most important player in this game, both to scum and town.
The LONGER Nacho survives, the harder this game is to win for scum. That is ALL there is to it.-
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HIRAKI was the lynch bait, that you decided to hammer. Not Gamma.In post 1790, xSoniaNevermindx wrote:You still need to tell me why you think Gamma is lynch bait.-
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I'm not saying he swung his vote to 'save fitz', nor did I suggest that. My suggestion was that he went from a vote he called scum to a vote he wasn't sure of/didn't have conviction written to yet that had the same amount of 'pressure' with his vote. And he also didn't do the groundwork to say "This is scum, not just anti-town". I don't like the idea of lynching someone for anti-town play unless that's literally the only scummy play that exists, so being content with not explaining how it was scum for me isn't enoughIn post 1873, Nachomamma8 wrote:
"Nothing town" can mean scum or else the PoE line of play wouldn't exist at all.In post 1673, Aj The Epic wrote:The concerning part that remains is that "Nothing town" doesn't mean "scum" and as short as that bridge is between the two, Ari does nothing to build it. There's no conviction to this wagon that is now entering a range that was about to guarantee creeps' lynch.
And really, looking back we can almost assume that Creep's wagon was a COUNTERWAGON to Fitz, a scum lynch. The one who perpetuates the force of this counterwagon is actually Ari, who basically swung the top two wagons by switching from a scum read to a Gamma-admitted (and not Ari-argued) PL.
Creeps wasn't a counter wagon to Fitz; Fitz was a counter wagon to Creeps. The reason why I'm pointing this out is because the Fitz wagon was dead in the water when the Creeps wagon started; it wasn't until I started pushing Fitz and getting support on Fitz that he became a legitimate wagon again.
I don't like you trying to build the narrative that Ari swung Creeps to save Fitz when that's nowhere near what actually happened.
"Bullshit narrative" where Ari suddenly goes from uptight and having his own scumteam to convinced Fitz is scum and loose about the lynch? He more or less (actually, he DOES) compromise on a Fitz lynch because a 'no lynch would be bad', and keeps his scumteam as Gamma/Creeps/TwoFace. So no, the conclusion wasn't drawn that TwoFace was scum from that, Ari already believed that. What I'm looking at is before/after hammer vote and I DID notice the difference there. That's why it pinged me in the first place.In post 1875, Nachomamma8 wrote:
And, surprise surprise, AJ is ignoring context to push a bullshit narrative.In post 1673, Aj The Epic wrote:This was weird, because it came AFTER fitz was lynched, but before the flip. This is basically targeting out Twoface, who did get a serious case of cold feet vs Fitz but did argue it the majority of the way into existence to begin with. Ari really hadn't been this loose since far earlier in the game, too, and was late to the Fitz wagon. But ODDLY ENOUGH he's got this assuredness that fitz is scum now, after saying he can't remember why fitz was scum earlier.
TwoFace posted that case as a reason for Mathblade to be scum.
Aristophanes countered by posting his case back at him (and putting the conclusion as he was scum). The ":o" should have tipped you off that it wasn't a completely serious case. It's also interesting that you ignore Aristophanes showing doubt about Fitz flipping scum around this point, which also would have been a decent tip off that the post you're referring to wasn't completely serious.
Would you call Ari town and make this case if you didn't know his meta.-
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I don't remember you being so hell bent on losing games.
VOTE: Gamma
I think I made it clear that at the very least today should be the groundwork to actually pick out someone who's scum and if you have to, lynch me D4. You die tonight so why do something that the town seems incredibly capable of doing?-
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I think we've talked about 'nothing pro-town' is a short jump to scum, but not bridged.In post 483, Gamma Emerald wrote:Creeps has done nothing protown as I see it. I can get with this.
VOTE: Creeps20In post 530, Gamma Emerald wrote:My reasons for voting Creeps are that if he is scum he is using poor play as a smokescreen, and if he is town he is giving power to scum, especially by distrusting the confirmed masons.In post 573, Gamma Emerald wrote:It's not just policy: I believe Creeps has a chance of flipping scumIn post 576, Gamma Emerald wrote:OK
I'd prefer if you'd stop discrediting it by calling it a policy lynch though.
It's not a PL, totally legit. But you really should stop acknowledging the fact it's a PL. What an odd thing to do. He again was voting Fitz first.In post 578, Gamma Emerald wrote:
Fitz or Hiraki.In post 577, TwoFace wrote:who else besides creep would you lynch today and why gamma?
p.edit - but that's what it is. voting a person for playing poorly is what policy lynches were invented for
I understand it's a policy lynch, but the way you talk about feels like discrediting.
This is L-2 with 24+ hours left. There's motivation to move the game, but this isn't the town-driven way to do that.In post 720, Gamma Emerald wrote:Creeps I'd prefer if you claimed now since we're having trouble assembling votes rn.
In post 838, Gamma Emerald wrote:Wait, Eric was still an option for fitz?
VOTE: Havingfitz
Eric's conftown buddy....ayy. That's actually disgusting.
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When I say that with the not protown/scum thing, I'm basically saying that while close, anti-town isn't necessarily scum. It's just bad play. Whenever I see a lynch on anti-town, it can always be called into question if it's actually just a PL. We consider lurking anti-town, for example.
I get what Nacho said (at the time) with the claim, in the fact that it was drawing near for the day to end. However the best reaction would've been to have worked for encouraging activity early on, declaring the options real quick and pushing hard for the lynch, not asking for a L-2 claim. No one's going to let a game go to a NL night 1, or there's enough town around to prevent it.
I think the vote switch is more telling that we've been giving it credit. It's not like Gamma does a lot with that wagon outside cheerleading Creeps into existence, and the vote change back on looks opportunistic as hell.
Your original statement just made it seem like I had done nothing the entire time I've been here. That's not really true, even though the time I've been here is rather limited thus far. I've made two cases, which is more than I can say for a lot of people here. Importantly, the town is going with a 'next man up' philosophy to lynching and never once stopping to say "hey that Hiraki lynch didn't exactly work out right".-
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http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 9#p8633739
That one is the case on Ari made a while back.-
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Make sure you get a healthy amount of eggnog
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ROFL probably not.
-Fitz/Creeps major wagons yesterday. Hikrai dueling wagons with them. After a time, Mathblades became universally town read (replaced in, died N1 Bodyguard). Early wagon ran up Nacho's predecessor to claim mason with Uzi at L-2.
--Creeps gets to L-2, Gamma asks for claim. Gamma's also probably the main cheerleader of the wagon. Somewhere around 36 hours to go in day when this occurs. Nacho/other replace-ins prompt extra time, so thread doesn't end. Gamma unvotes, votes Fitz, then revotes as soon as someone replaces his vote, putting creeps L-1.
-Derailing happens... I dunno this part well enough. Long and short, Fitz starts to become default wagon, hiraki/Creeps sure secondary wagons. Fitz had been making some longass walls that had a bit of flailing in them, and it was finally enough to get him. Pretty sure he claimed a PR and still got lynched anyways. Flips scum.
D2, Nacho takes over wagon1. Frank, who had been lurking hardcore with no real attempt to play town to that point, gets pushed. Backup Bodyguard claims, wagon derails. Wagons start on Nacho's scumreads (deer/my slot, Vedith? and Hiraki). The wagon's pretty easy, is ran up high pretty easy with only real reason day isn't ended earlier is more replacements. I replace in right about now. Call Hiraki town, Josh slot scum off of some of Eric's early posts and what I had seen. Starts some pressure on me. Case made on Ari, Nacho claims Ari town off meta, would explain later. Hiraki eventually dies, claims Vedith/My slot town. Flips town.
-Frank dies to BG after we forced him to protect Nacho, saying he would die if nacho died before him.
-D3, wagons basically as is. Nacho makes case that Ari is town based meta and refuting case, case made on Gamma.
Overall, Uzi/Nacho are conftown. Josh is probs town. Nacho is completely convinced Ari is town. Afterwards, you/me have the hardest wagons with a town that's basically just railroading lynches right now. Gamma should be in the scum pile. We're probably dealing with two more scum.-
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Aj The Epic Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Posts: 4567
- Joined: November 10, 2012
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Aj The Epic Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Posts: 4567
- Joined: November 10, 2012
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Aj The Epic Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Posts: 4567
- Joined: November 10, 2012
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Aj The Epic Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Posts: 4567
- Joined: November 10, 2012